Unofficial combined WRC2-WRC3 2020

[AnttiL]

So, here we will calculate the points for WRC2 and WRC3 combined, like it should be. We count in the six best results of the seven first results of the season.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vTr6dzHgbhDsAVUTgGe4eKaOApJ3vxbMckq-67m3Tl7YD8fOfdDkPz7hdNXOIc8syjZCRnbHuyjaeIB/pubhtml

1 Eric Camilli 25
2 Mads Østberg 18
3 Nicolas Ciamin 15
4 Yoann Bonato 12
5 Yohan Rossel 10
6 Gregoire Munster 8
7 Adrien Fourmaux 6
8 Nikolay Gryazin 4
9 Rhys Yates 2
10 Enrico Brazzoli 1

[cali]

So, here we will calculate the points for WRC2 and WRC3 combined, like it should be. We count in the six best results of the seven first results of the season.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vTr6dzHgbhDsAVUTgGe4eKaOApJ3vxbMckq-67m3Tl7YD8fOfdDkPz7hdNXOIc8syjZCRnbHuyjaeIB/pubhtml

1Eric Camilli25
2Mads Østberg18
3Nicolas Ciamin15
4Yoann Bonato12
5Yohan Rossel10
6Gregoire Munster8
7Adrien Fourmaux6
8Nikolay Gryazin4
9Rhys Yates2
10Enrico Brazzoli1Much better, thanks!

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[pantealex]

5 of those entered to Sweden

[dodge33cymru]

Thanks for this; the proper table

[AnttiL]

After Sweden

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EQ6dT_vX0AEm7sc?format=jpg&name=medium

[AnttiL]

Tidemand and Østberg now sharing the lead

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ETI4SF5XYAAOFI6?format=jpg&name=4096x4096

[dodge33cymru]

Well, it'll be a pity if the season results get annulled, with such a close battle at the top........

Appreciate the update

[AnttiL]

Almost forgot to update after Estonia, but here we go!

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vTr6dzHgbhDsAVUTgGe4eKaOApJ3vxbMckq-67m3Tl7YD8fOfdDkPz7hdNXOIc8syjZCRnbHuyjaeIB/pubhtml

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EhiaOWZXkAAFgGd?format=jpg&name=medium

[Fast Eddie WRC]

4 different "Winner's" so far...

[AnttiL]

4 different "Winner's" so far...

And three of them from WRC3 (and all of them have some sort of manufacturer connection...Camilli has been doing testing, Huttunen was formerly in the Hyundai development program and Solberg has done extensive testing with Skoda Motorsport)

[AnttiL]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EiYHlXKWsAMoXCn?format=jpg&name=large

Tidemand takes the lead.

[AnttiL]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EkDUqIyXgAUOu1J?format=jpg&name=medium

Tidemand still in the lead. Average points column added, Huttunen is in his own league...

[Rally Power]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EkDUqIyXgAUOu1J?format=jpg&name=medium

Tidemand still in the lead. Average points column added, Huttunen is in his own league...

Even this combined classification can't make us feel that WRC2/3 split was a smart move. If we check each rally SS's results we'll find that Tidemand was only pushing in Mexico, where he clearly dominated RC2; on the others events he has only 4 RC2 stage wins (in Turkey), as he's mostly cruising after his direct rivals having problems. Obviously that's not his fault and we all know he's one of the fastests drivers around, but it speak volumes about the lack of sense of WRC2/3 split.

[AnttiL]

I don't get your point. Tidemand leads WRC2 with the current rules and he leads also if we combine WRC2 and WRC3...it's not the fault of the points system clearly.

Tidemand just knows that Rally2 cars aren't as durable as WRC cars and will eventually get a problem if you don't drive carefully enough. Huttunen clearly had the same tactics in Sardegna. In addition, it's obvious that driver mistakes are more common on this level of competition.

Also Tidemand didn't "push" in Mexico, there just wasn't as much competition so it was easier for him to lead and win stages. Kajto was on his first outing in Mexico and also had technical issues. Oliver retired on the first proper stage.

There's something similar about Tidemand leading the WRC2 as Ingram winning the ERC. It's not always the fastest car that gets the title, you need to make sure you finish and on the points, as often as possible.

Tidemand also has 5 rallies. Only Veiby, Gryazin and Fourmaux have as many, and they've had a number of mistakes, punctures and technical faults on the way. However, Tidemand's points average is still only second to Huttunen.

[Rally Power]

I don't get your point. Tidemand leads WRC2 with the current rules and he leads also if we combine WRC2 and WRC3...it's not the fault of the points system clarly.

Do you really believe he wouldn't try to go faster if he was running against all RC2 crews instead of just 2 or 3 direct WRC2 rivals?

[AnttiL]

Do you really believe he wouldn't try to go faster if he was running against all RC2 crews instead of just 2 or 3 direct WRC2 rivals?

Well maybe some end-of-the-rally cruising would be omitted, but I don't think he would go faster on the first stages. Besides, like my table proves, even this pace would be enough, if we were putting all WRC2 and WRC3 together!

[Rally Power]

Well maybe some end-of-the-rally cruising would be omitted, but I don't think he would go faster on the first stages. Besides, like my table proves, even this pace would be enough, if we were putting all WRC2 and WRC3 together!

Don't take me wrong, I'm not saying that your table isn't accurate but simply that it can't prove those would be the real results if all RC2 were running together, considering that running against a dozen rivals is always different from fighting with only 2 or 3.

With this split, instead of one strong series we're having two weaker ones; it's hard to see the point of it.

[Rallyper]

Don't take me wrong, I'm not saying that your table isn't accurate but simply that it can't prove those would be the real results if all RC2 were running together, considering that running against a dozen rivals is always different from fighting with only 2 or 3.

With this split, instead of one strong series we're having two weaker ones; it's hard to see the point of it.

Of course not. But that´s not what I think AnttiL want to show. Just the numbers as the current series show.

[dodge33cymru]

I still like to see it, but obviously this year this table shows less than it usually would. Still impressed by Huttunen; I had completely written him off a couple of years back, happy to be proven wrong.

[AnttiL]

Don't take me wrong, I'm not saying that your table isn't accurate but simply that it can't prove those would be the real results if all RC2 were running together, considering that running against a dozen rivals is always different from fighting with only 2 or 3.

With this split, instead of one strong series we're having two weaker ones; it's hard to see the point of it.

Yeah, it's a fair point that some drivers might start playing tactics when they're leading their own category, but at the same time many young drivers want to be the fastest RC2 car no matter the series, when they want to show talent. And team personnel also know how to get that standing from ewrc-results ;)

[focus206]

So, who would be the champion without the silly WRC2/WRC3 division? :)

[mknight]

Well WRC2 crews was fastest Rally2 on only 1 out of 7 rallies.(Mexico) Where there were few other Rally2 cars.

But WRC2 crews have no reason to push when they are leading their class, so you never know if they could beat the other guys or not.

[focus206]

Well WRC2 crews was fastest Rally2 on only 1 out of 7 rallies.(Mexico) Where there were few other Rally2 cars.

But WRC2 crews have no reason to push when they are leading their class, so you never know if they could beat the other guys or not.
Of course, it's just out of curiosity. It's "unofficial", after all.

[AnttiL]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eokj5MPXMAMk5u2?format=jpg&name=medium

1. Tidemand 82
2. Huttunen 80
3. Østberg 69
4. Solberg 51
5. Kajetanowicz 48

[dimviii]

i see Huttunen was always on podium

[rp]

Different WRC2/WRC3 rules, so it can not be Tidemand on the top, because this was already his 6th start. The 1st five nominated events will count (like in WRC3), so it´s Huttunen...

1. Jari Huttunen (FIN) Hyundai i20 R5 - 80 (4 events!)
2. Pontus Tidemand (S) ŠKODA FABIA Rally2 evo - 72 (5 first nominated events)
3. Mads Østberg (N) Citroën C3 R5 - 69 (5 events)
4. Kajetan Kajetanowicz (PL) ŠKODA FABIA Rally2 evo - 55 (5 events)
5. Marquito Bulacia (BOL) Citroën C3 R5 - 49 (5 events)
6. Oliver Solberg (S) ŠKODA FABIA Rally2 evo / Volkswagen Polo GTI R5 - 48 (5 events)
7. Ole Christian Veiby (N) Hyundai i20 R5 - 36 (5 events)
8. Adrien Fourmaux (F) Ford Fiesta Rally2 - 33 (5 events)
9. Emil Lindholm (FIN) ŠKODA FABIA Rally2 evo - 28 (2 events)
10. Eric Camilli (F) Citroën C3 R5 - 25 (2 events)
10. Andreas Mikkelsen (N) ŠKODA Fabia Rally2 evo - 25 (1 event)

[AnttiL]

Another thing: if we would impose the same rules as WRC2 that you can only count the best five results from six, Tidemand would lose 6 points and his win. Otherwise the table wouldn't be affected.

EDIT: rp was faster ;)

[mknight]

After so much talk about Formaux lately so few points with 6 starts and 5.5 points average per rally ain't much.

I admitt I haven't really been following him much but while he is very fast on wet (clean) tarmac rest look less impressive.

[Jarek Z]

Different WRC2/WRC3 rules, so it can not be Tidemand on the top, because this was already his 6th start. The 1st five nominated events will count (like in WRC3), so it´s Huttunen...

1. Jari Huttunen (FIN) Hyundai i20 R5 - 80 (4 events!)
2. Pontus Tidemand (S) ŠKODA FABIA Rally2 evo - 72 (5 first nominated events)
3. Mads Østberg (N) Citroën C3 R5 - 69 (5 events)
4. Kajetan Kajetanowicz (PL) ŠKODA FABIA Rally2 evo - 55 (5 events)
5. Marquito Bulacia (BOL) Citroën C3 R5 - 49 (5 events)
6. Oliver Solberg (S) ŠKODA FABIA Rally2 evo / Volkswagen Polo GTI R5 - 48 (5 events)
7. Ole Christian Veiby (N) Hyundai i20 R5 - 36 (5 events)
8. Adrien Fourmaux (F) Ford Fiesta Rally2 - 33 (5 events)
9. Emil Lindholm (FIN) ŠKODA FABIA Rally2 evo - 28 (2 events)
10. Eric Camilli (F) Citroën C3 R5 - 25 (2 events)
10. Andreas Mikkelsen (N) ŠKODA Fabia Rally2 evo - 25 (1 event)

Both Anttil's and your combined standings seem wrong. Where is Gryazin?

[AnttiL]

Gryazin is 12th with 22 points

[rp]

Gryazin is 12th with 22 points

Yes.
12. Nikolay Gryazin (RUS) Hyundai i20 R5 - 22 (5 events)

[Jarek Z]

Gryazin is 12th with 22 points

Oh, sorry then. I didn't expect him to be so low.

[AnttiL]

Full table here https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vTr6dzHgbhDsAVUTgGe4eKaOApJ3vxbMckq-67m3Tl7YD8fOfdDkPz7hdNXOIc8syjZCRnbHuyjaeIB/pubhtml

Gryazin was a big disappointment this year, although he didn't really have much big WRC2 level results before either

[Jarek Z]

Gryazin was a big disappointment this year, although he didn't really have much big WRC2 level results before either

Funny thing is that he has identical number of points like Veiby in WRC2, but is so much lower than Veiby in your WRC2/WRC3 standings.

[mknight]

Full table here https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vTr6dzHgbhDsAVUTgGe4eKaOApJ3vxbMckq-67m3Tl7YD8fOfdDkPz7hdNXOIc8syjZCRnbHuyjaeIB/pubhtml

Gryazin was a big disappointment this year, although he didn't really have much big WRC2 level results before either

Guess that's why he kind of got kicked from there and suddenly Adamo talks nicely about Huttunen again.

[Jarek Z]

Full table here https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vTr6dzHgbhDsAVUTgGe4eKaOApJ3vxbMckq-67m3Tl7YD8fOfdDkPz7hdNXOIc8syjZCRnbHuyjaeIB/pubhtml

Thanks for the link. Your table clearly shows that Huttunen was absolutely the best WRC2/WRC3 driver this year.

[Jarek Z]

Guess that's why he kind of got kicked from there and suddenly Adamo talks nicely about Huttunen again.

But what did Adamo expect? Didn't he know that Gryazin comes from the same brutal all-or-nothing breed of Russian rally drivers like Lukyanuk and Novikov? ;)

[mknight]

But what did Adamo expect? Didn't he know that Gryazin comes from the same brutal all-or-nothing breed of Russian rally drivers like Lukyanuk and Novikov? ;)

Gryazins main problem this year was that there was just the nothing.... not even crashes, just no speed. But I guess i20 R5 can be hard to drive.

Anyway I remember how after rally Estonia last year people like Colin Clark were saying how both he and Solberg will be both in WRC cars soon...

[AnttiL]

In 2018 Gryazin was the runner-up in ERC and managed to win one Finnish Championship event ahead of Lindholm and Pietarinen. That's when I thought he's got something...

In 2019 he moved up to WRC2 for his first ever WRC events. He was second best RC2 car in Corsica and Finland. This year he was second in Mexico but two minutes behind Tidemand.

The difference between Veiby and Gryazin is explained by Gryazin finishing a couple of times just outside the RC2 top ten, but still scoringh WRC2 points because there's so little cars in the series. Meanwhile, Veiby's 0 results are retirements so they are 0's on both lists.

[dimviii]

But what did Adamo expect? Didn't he know that Gryazin comes from the same brutal all-or-nothing breed of Russian rally drivers like Lukyanuk and Novikov? ;)

Lukyanuk is 2 times erc champion,and one time 2nd

[Essaj]

Lukyanuk is 2 times erc champion,and one time 2nd

Yeah and ERC is ERC

[dimviii]

Yeah and ERC is ERC

what this had to do with that i quoted? Nothing.

[Essaj]

what this had to do with that i quoted? Nothing.

That he is all-or-nothing kinda like driver? how many times has he done proper ERC season (which has not been the most competitive series) campaign and he has almost always been a favorite to win, but the madman driving has been costly for him, also in ERC. And before his R5/ERC days he was even more unpredictable, while being blindingly fast.

[dimviii]

That he is all-or-nothing kinda like driver? how many times has he done proper ERC season (which has not been the most competitive series) campaign and he has almost always been a favorite to win, but the madman driving has been costly for him, also in ERC. And before his R5/ERC days he was even more unpredictable, while being blindingly fast.

i dont agree.We cant put Luky and Novikov on the same league,when Luky has achieved championships,while being always fast.

[Essaj]

i dont agree.We cant put Luky and Novikov on the same league,when Luky has achieved championships,while being always fast.

Where do you draw the line? I think Luky has proven to be one of these crazy russian all-or-nothing drivers with all his event crashes, but also the idiotic test crash that denied his best chance to show his speed on WRC level back in Finland 2015/16?

Novikov (just as Luky) was reckless, didn't win championships but managed to show speed against the WRC drivers while Luky only did that against people in ERC

[dimviii]

Where do you draw the line? I think Luky has proven to be one of these crazy russian all-or-nothing drivers with all his event crashes, but also the idiotic test crash that denied his best chance to show his speed on WRC level back in Finland 2015/16?

Novikov (just as Luky) was reckless, didn't win championships but managed to show speed against the WRC drivers while Luky only did that against people in ERC
exactly the one won,and the other won nothing.Thats where i put the line.
Thats why they dont deserve to be at the same sentence.

[denkimi]

gryazin is just another spoiled kid with a rich daddy. he does on average 20 rally's a year and he still can't keep up with the best drivers.

you can't compare that to luky, who is genuinely talented but lacked the resources when he was young.

[AnttiL]

Gryazin is still young, and Novikov was young when he was in WRC. Luky turned 40 this year and was like 35 when he started going to events outside Russia and Baltics. Quite different situations.

[Essaj]

If we had championship now with Novikov on his prime vs Kajto/Ingram I would always put money on the russian. "but he has a championship title" well neither does Neuville.

[wyler]

exactly the one won,and the other won nothing.Thats where i put the line.
Thats why they dont deserve to be at the same sentence.

What he won should also be considered. not all crowns are the same.

[the sniper]

exactly the one won,and the other won nothing.Thats where i put the line.
Thats why they dont deserve to be at the same sentence.

If Novikov had aimed lower, would he have won a championship?

I'm always surprised how bad a reputation Novikov has. Maybe he had the wrong mindset/hearing (!) for rallying and was never going settle down, but looking at his results in 2012, his first full season, and those of Tanak, maybe Novikov gave up (or was given up on) too soon?

Novikov went up against the likes of Tanak and Neuville in the same car, on his day he beat them. Though most days admittedly, he crashed. But I do think there's a question mark over what could have been with him.

PS, this isn't a knock against Luky, I'm a big fan. He's done what he could fund and, credit to him, hasn't given up.

[cali]

If Novikov had aimed lower, would he have won a championship?

I'm always surprised how bad a reputation Novikov has. Maybe he had the wrong mindset/hearing (!) for rallying and was never going settle down, but looking at his results in 2012, his first full season, and those of Tanak, maybe Novikov gave up (or was given up on) too soon?

Novikov went up against the likes of Tanak and Neuville in the same car, on his day he beat them. Though most days admittedly, he crashed. But I do think there's a question mark over what could have been with him.

PS, this isn't a knock against Luky, I'm a big fan. He's done what he could fund and, credit to him, hasn't given up.At that time Novikov had way more experience than Neuville and Tänak. Way way more. I have seen him at 16 driving Gr. N Impreza, destroying all estonian up and coming youngsters. Tänak was driving VW Golf or Renault Clio at that time... It's not even comparable the amount of experience Novikov had by that time.

Needless to say he lost his almost secured title to Rainer Aus by crashing heavily at the later part of Saaremaa Rally.

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[AnttiL]

According to Stephane Prevot, Novikov was a natural talent but didn't listen enough to pace notes

[cali]

According to Stephane Prevot, Novikov was a natural talent but didn't listen enough to pace notesAbsolutely fully agree

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[Mirek]

I always felt like his pacenotes were rather useless (at least I wouldn't be able to drive according to them). Just check yourself if you could drive according to this where 90% of corners are marked as "one": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYPLVjz9LNk

[Rallyper]

Not listening to or having bad pace notes is also a part of having experience. Which obviously Novikov didn´t have.

I guess generally he was too much unmature. He should have stayed in N-category a couple of years more.

[dupanton]

According to Stephane Prevot, Novikov was a natural talent but didn't listen enough to pace notes

Prevot worded it perfectly in his book. If the RAC would run blind without notes, on the snow and on ice, Novikov and Duval would beat the opposition by minutes.

[mknight]

Prevot worded it perfectly in his book. If the RAC would run blind without notes, on the snow and on ice, Novikov and Duval would beat the opposition by minutes.

"To finish first you first need to finish"

[Rallyper]

Prevot worded it perfectly in his book. If the RAC would run blind without notes, on the snow and on ice, Novikov and Duval would beat the opposition by minutes.

However taking those words for a true, one could state several finnish and swedish ancient drivers should beat Novikov and Duval by minutes.