All aboard Max's hype train or not?

[The Black Knight]

https://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/28312380/building-ultimate-f1-driver-2010s

I read the above article and all I could think of when I saw Max Verstappen as the all out winner in the raw speed section was that this journalist has bough into the Max hype.

Don’t get me wrong on this one, Max is super talented but the driver with the most raw speed of the last 10 years? Get the f outta here mate.

Lets test that theory:

1. When you’re taking pure raw speed into account, there is no greater barometer than qualifying by which to judge raw speed/ In the time they were at Red Bull, Ricciardo had more poles than Max. In fact, Riccardo still has more poles than Max at 3 while Max has only 2 poles. In reality, had Lewis Max’s car, I doubt it would have taken him over three years to get a Pole Position.
2. It ’s not realistic to take Albon or Gasly as barometers considering how awful Gasly was at the start of the year and Albon was coming into a new car. On that side though, I will note that Albon set exactly the same time as Max in Q3 Japan I believe it was. This suggests to me but it is not definitive proof, that Max is not this raw speed superstar that everyone believes as he should have been ahead of Albon 100% of the time.
3. Max may have pasted Riccardo in qualifying last year, but it was just as much due to Riccardo’s bad luck and issues with the car so it’s not really a good barometer either. I’d rather take the previous year as a proper example and they were neck and neck in 2017

So who here buys the Max hype? Personally, I haven’t seen anything to suggest he has more raw speed than Bottas, let alone be on the level of Hamilton or Alonso even. He my have, but he has yet to prove it definitively. I suspect this journalist probably realises all this and really placed Max ahead of Hamilton to generate this very type of conversation but I think it detracts from the achievements of Hamilton.

The Max hype train is getting boring at this stage. Super talented yes, has he proven he has more raw speed than Hamilton or other greats of the sport yet? He may in time but he most definitely has not proven that yet.

[Big Ben]

I don't know if in terms of raw speed he is the best. I find these things hard to quantify. The author of the article invented a few categories and spread them among the 2010s drivers. Saying that Lewis Hamilton was the master of race management is kind of funny too. He's always doubting the race strategy on the radio, often for no good reason.
Coming back to Verstappen, he could easily win the title for the most annoying brat of the 2010s. The dumbest too (see the Ocon incident)
Then again, why should we get into this evaluations when we can't even count decades properly :))

[Nitrodaze]

Verstapenn is exciting without a doubt. But l would not take that blog seriously, afterall it is one man's veiw of the world. For me it reads like a compilation of the hypes over the years. I think declaring a "best of" any driver traits is subjective at best or at least collective subjectivity in reality.
That said, Verstapenn would have to prove his true status against Leclerc in the Ferrari, Sainz and Norris in the Mclaren if they get their 2021 campaign right and Russell in the Mercedes when that happens. Not to forget Bottas in the Mercedes that is improving year on year.

Even with adjustments, it is hard to say if he was the fastest overall. I doubt he is, because l doubt Verstapenn in a Msercedes can beat Bottas in the Mercedes as consistently as Hamilton has beaten Bottas. And Bottas has had his days when he was simply untouchable. I think we can use these sort of phrases after Verstapenn has gone up against a proper competition in the other Redbull. Ricciado's chequred performances due to reliability and dodgy service on race days makes one doubt that we can use that paring to gauge anything meaningful. That said, Verstapenn is the best driver in a Redbull at the moment.

Would he do better than Leclerc if placed in the Ferrari or better than Bottas if placed in Mercedes is an unknown. But we can speculate that he can win a driver world championship in the Mercedes or Ferrari given the chance. But in the absence of Hamilton.

[Zico]

I think you are wearing those Hamilton tinted glasses again..

Being a diehard Lewis fan I do understand your need to question his outright pace... you see your idol Lewis's position at the very top being threatened by the up and coming young guns... and Max is arguably the quickest of them.

He has his faults, he's not perfect.. but I think its quite clear to the rest of us that he is right up there with the very quickest... Yes, its hard to tell what the actual pecking order might be but comparing him to Bottas? I think you just lost any credibility you had left with that one..

[Nitrodaze]

I think you are wearing those Hamilton tinted glasses again..

Being a diehard Lewis fan I do understand your need to question his outright pace... you see your idol Lewis's position at the very top being threatened by the up and coming young guns... and Max is arguably the quickest of them.

He has his faults, he's not perfect.. but I think its quite clear to the rest of us that he is right up there with the very quickest... Yes, its hard to tell what the actual pecking order might be but comparing him to Bottas? I think you just lost any credibility you had left with that one..

You miss my point. Verstapenns pace is not questioned. What is questioned is whether he is the outright fastest of all the drivers on the current grid. I don't think so. But he is there about when the car under him is faster than everything else on race day. So is Bottas, Leclerc and Vettel. Also Ricciado in a Redbull.

So what is your point?

[Zico]

You miss my point. Verstapenns pace is not questioned. What is questioned is whether he is the outright fastest of all the drivers on the current grid. I don't think so. But he is there about when the car under him is faster than everything else on race day. So is Bottas, Leclerc and Vettel. Also Ricciado in a Redbull.

So what is your point?


I was actually replying to TBK who said.. "I haven’t seen anything to suggest he has more raw speed than Bottas, let alone be on the level of Hamilton or Alonso even."

Sorry... should have quoted him to make that clear.


My point is that Bottas, other than the odd good qualy and race, is just not known for having raw pace in abundance... how anyone can seriously suggest he looks like he would be quicker than Max is quite frankly laughable.

[Nitrodaze]

My point is that Bottas, other than the odd good qualy and race, is just not known for having raw pace in abundance... how anyone can seriously suggest he looks like he would be quicker than Max is quite frankly laughable.

I can't argue with that. Bottas has been very inconsistent. He has on occasion shown that he has inherent good pace; well at least to beat Hamilton on some occasions. He is certainly not at the same level of consistency that we see in Verstapenn. Hence, chance are that Verstapenn would beat Bottas more often than Bottas would beat Verstapenn in the same car.

[Zico]

I can't argue with that. Bottas has been very inconsistent. He has on occasion shown that he has inherent good pace; well at least to beat Hamilton on some occasions. He is certainly not at the same level of consistency that we see in Verstapenn. Hence, chance are that Verstapenn would beat Bottas more often than Bottas would beat Verstapenn.


I suspect Verstappen would acheive a similar record to Hamilton vs Bottas but its all really a circular argument of 'what ifs' and conjecture. It can give us a rough idea but until they are in the same car over a decent time scale we cannot possibly know just how close they are in terms of raw pace.

If everything was equal in terms of machinery, it certainly wouldnt surprise me if the top 4 quickest could all be within a single tenth over a large data set barring any anomalies.

[Nitrodaze]

I suspect Verstappen would acheive a similar record to Hamilton vs Bottas but its all really a circular argument of 'what ifs' and conjecture. It can give us a rough idea but until they are in the same car over a decent time scale we cannot possibly know just how close they are in terms of raw pace.

If everything was equal in terms of machinery, it certainly wouldnt surprise me if the top 4 quickest could all be within a single tenth over a large data set barring any anomalies.

Very true. The truth is that Bottas is not yet in that special club of world champions in waiting which Verstapenn and Leclerc are. That said, that does not make Verstapenn a member of the special club of world champions which he behave as if he already is.

[Jag_Warrior]

I don't question Max's pace or even his racecraft. What I have questioned is his maturity and intelligence. On the track and off, I think that he still has some work to do in those areas. In many respects, I would assume that Leclerc is several years older than Verstappen if I didn't know better.

[The Black Knight]

I was actually replying to TBK who said.. "I haven’t seen anything to suggest he has more raw speed than Bottas, let alone be on the level of Hamilton or Alonso even."

Sorry... should have quoted him to make that clear.


My point is that Bottas, other than the odd good qualy and race, is just not known for having raw pace in abundance... how anyone can seriously suggest he looks like he would be quicker than Max is quite frankly laughable.

But how much of a real known quantity is Max really?

He's only had Ricciardo as a teammate worth talking about in RBR. Ricciardo was regarded as a benchmark because he beat Vettel but, as can be seen by Leclerc this year, beating Vettel is not a difficult achievement for a F1 driver and Vettel is far from the fastest guy on the grid. He's a pretty good driver but one that was lucky to land himself a great car for 4 years and won the championship. I must admit though, I think this year along with 2014 was actually Riccardo's most impressive going to Renault and comprehensively outpacing Hulkenberg.

Max has only had 2 pole positions. Ricciardo in the same car had 3 pole positions during their time as teammates, so if Max is this talented raw speed driver, then he should certainly have more than 2 poles to his name but he hasn't. Qualifying is the benchmark for raw speed and Max has a lot to show there. Bottas on the other hand has 11 pole positions and 7 wins to his name. Max should at least have 6 or 7 pole positions to his name by now but he has 2. Sorry lads, but this Max hype train is nothing other than a bandwagon that people have jumped on because others say so. Looking at the evidence, he certainly has the potential and position within the sport to show this much flaunted raw speed we hear about but, to date, he has only shown it in patches and he certainly hasn't shown enough to prove he has more raw speed than Hamilton or Alonso. I think either of those drivers from the 2010s would easily rip him apart over the course of a season.

[Zico]

But how much of a real known quantity is Max really?

He's only had Ricciardo as a teammate worth talking about in RBR. Ricciardo was regarded as a benchmark because he beat Vettel but, as can be seen by Leclerc this year, beating Vettel is not a difficult achievement for a F1 driver and Vettel is far from the fastest guy on the grid. He's a pretty good driver but one that was lucky to land himself a great car for 4 years and won the championship. I must admit though, I think this year along with 2014 was actually Riccardo's most impressive going to Renault and comprehensively outpacing Hulkenberg.

Max has only had 2 pole positions. Ricciardo in the same car had 3 pole positions during their time as teammates, so if Max is this talented raw speed driver, then he should certainly have more than 2 poles to his name but he hasn't. Qualifying is the benchmark for raw speed and Max has a lot to show there. Bottas on the other hand has 11 pole positions and 7 wins to his name. Max should at least have 6 or 7 pole positions to his name by now but he has 2. Sorry lads, but this Max hype train is nothing other than a bandwagon that people have jumped on because others say so. Looking at the evidence, he certainly has the potential and position within the sport to show this much flaunted raw speed we hear about but, to date, he has only shown it in patches and he certainly hasn't shown enough to prove he has more raw speed than Hamilton or Alonso. I think either of those drivers from the 2010s would easily rip him apart over the course of a season.


Pole vs pole positions only shows that the car was also working well and suited to these circuits... and a mere 5 point data snapshot hardly tells the full story.

Your benchmark for pace has to be your qualifying position vs your team mate.... I guess Verstappen qualifying ahead 14 vs 4 for tbe 2018 season doesnt suit your narrative though.

Who is quicker between Hamilton and Verstappen? I think it would be close but of course nobody knows...

The only point I'm trying to make is that you comparing Max to Valteri pacewise is just.. whaaaat???
If I was a betting man I'd put big money on Verstappen outqualifying Bottas over the course of a season if they were team mates. I'd have no doubts about that at all.

[journeyman racer]

Hahahahaha Oh dear, how can one get such a sore arse so easily as TBK???

To boost Hamilton, Ricciardo is just a guy who's won 7 races. But to denigrate Verstappen, Ricciardo is now a good enough marker. What a dumbarse!

Idk how Verstappen would go? He's never driven the best car in the field for six season straight like Hamilton just has. A luxury no other driver has been afforded in the history of F1. (Never mind including the McLaren in 07 & 08).

Hamilton lucky he's not a Renault atm, Because Hulkenberg's reputation would be elevated after Ricciardo flogs him. Then all of you would be confused.

In light of the mika Hakkinen podcast I linked in the other thread, I think Zico's opinion of Bottas is harsh. The host of the podcast makes a pertinent point form 28:00-28:20.

[Nitrodaze]

I have to say though, that Verstapenn has not been given the credit that he deserves for his performance this 2019 season. With the Redbull, he managed to finish third in the driver's championship ahead of the two Ferrari drivers; Leclerc and Vettel. And was keeping Bottas on his toes all throughout the season. It is a phenomenal achievement and goes to show what a talent he is. This is every indication that in a championship winning car, he would be very hard to beat. That said, so would Leclerc in a championship winning Ferrari.

[The Black Knight]

Pole vs pole positions only shows that the car was also working well and suited to these circuits... and a mere 5 point data snapshot hardly tells the full story.

Your benchmark for pace has to be your qualifying position vs your team mate.... I guess Verstappen qualifying ahead 14 vs 4 for tbe 2018 season doesnt suit your narrative though.

Who is quicker between Hamilton and Verstappen? I think it would be close but of course nobody knows...

The only point I'm trying to make is that you comparing Max to Valteri pacewise is just.. whaaaat???
If I was a betting man I'd put big money on Verstappen outqualifying Bottas over the course of a season if they were team mates. I'd have no doubts about that at all.

The point I'm making is that we're comparing Max to what benchmark and known quantity really? Hamilton has had multiple world championships as teammates and, apart from 2011 blip where he as beaten fair square by Jenson, and 2016 reliability, he has comfortably had the measure of them all. Verstappen has had no such reference point. If I sat into a RBR car, I'd be pretty sure Verstappen would beat me 20/20 throughout the course of the season, that doesn't make him great just because I don't have the skills to match him, much like Gasly didn't. Albon probably does, and we'll find out more next year but I think Albon shaped up pretty well to Max given the circumstances. And lets not forget Sainz and Max were neck and neck in Toro Rosso and there wasn't anything really suggesting one was better than the other.

[journeyman racer]

Don't forget. Rosberg would've beaten Hamilton in 2013 if it weren't for reliability, and team orders.

edit: A way to closer define the contexts of performance, you'd have to find as many reasonable comparisons as possible.

From 2017-19, Verstappen had driven cars that finished 3rd in the wcc 3 times.

He's finished 6th, 4th & 3rd in those seasons with 7 wins and 2pp.

Accounting for the fact McLaren were disqualified from the 07 wcc, and otherwise would've won, the only times Hamilton has driven a car lower than 2nd in the wcc (13 seasons) was 09 & 12.

Also accounting for the weird season 09 was, with various teams having fluctuations in form, we're going to allow McLaren extreme competitiveness in the second half of 09 offset by their extreme lack of competitiveness (Alonso scored more points than Hamilton, prior to McLaren getting their act together, in the 8th placed Renault. )

With this in mind. Hamilton finished 5th & 4th in those seasons, 5 wins and 11pp.

Facts you may want to take into account.

Hamilton has beaten 2 guys who drove a car that finished ahead of his in the wcc, being Massa and Webber in 2012. But he was also beaten by Raikkonen, driving a car that finished lower than Hamilton's that year.

Verstappen has finished ahead of 3 guys that drove cars that finished ahead of his in the wcc. He'd never been beaten by someone with a car that finished lower in the wcc.

[Nitrodaze]

Don't forget. Rosberg would've beaten Hamilton in 2013 if it weren't for reliability, and team orders.

edit: A way to closer define the contexts of performance, you'd have to find as many reasonable comparisons as possible.

From 2017-19, Verstappen had driven cars that finished 3rd in the wcc 3 times.

He's finished 6th, 4th & 3rd in those seasons with 7 wins and 2pp.

Accounting for the fact McLaren were disqualified from the 07 wcc, and otherwise would've won, the only times Hamilton has driven a car lower than 2nd in the wcc (13 seasons) was 09 & 12.

Also accounting for the weird season 09 was, with various teams having fluctuations in form, we're going to allow McLaren extreme competitiveness in the second half of 09 offset by there extreme lack of competitiveness (Alonso scored more points than Hamilton, prior to McLaren getting their act together, in the 8th placed Renault. )

With this in mind. Hamilton finished 5th & 4th in those seasons, 5 wins and 11pp.

Facts you may want to take into account.

Hamilton has beaten 2 guys who drove a car that finished ahead of his in the wcc, being Massa and Webber in 2012. But he was also beaten by Raikkonen, driving a car that finished lower than Hamilton's that year.

Verstappen has finished ahead of 3 guys that drove cars that finished ahead of his in the wcc. He'd never been beaten by someone with a car that finished lower in the wcc.

Sorry dude, you make it very hard for anyone to take you seriously with these sort of posts. You are not some sweaty faced kids making these post now are you?

[journeyman racer]

Sorry dude, you make it very hard for anyone to take you seriously with these sort of posts.
What is it that you don't like about my comparisons? They are fair stats. Verstappen has never driven a top 2 wcc car. He's mainly driven a car 3rd in the wcc. Hamilton has had two seasons in a car that's 3rd in the wcc.

What do you think is a better comparison?


You are not some sweaty faced kids making these post now are you?
Nope.

[Zico]

The point I'm making is that we're comparing Max to what benchmark and known quantity really? Hamilton has had multiple world championships as teammates and, apart from 2011 blip where he as beaten fair square by Jenson, and 2016 reliability, he has comfortably had the measure of them all. Verstappen has had no such reference point. If I sat into a RBR car, I'd be pretty sure Verstappen would beat me 20/20 throughout the course of the season, that doesn't make him great just because I don't have the skills to match him, much like Gasly didn't. Albon probably does, and we'll find out more next year but I think Albon shaped up pretty well to Max given the circumstances. And lets not forget Sainz and Max were neck and neck in Toro Rosso and there wasn't anything really suggesting one was better than the other.

I wasnt comparing Max with Lewis. Its you who reckons that Bottas is quicker than Max.

Max beat Ricciardo who beat Vettel..a 4 time WDC.
Bottas beat Massa but was beaten by Hamilton.

Other than yourself I think most F1 fans would recognise that Max has a more impressive record than Bottas. I dont know why you see that as a mark against Lewis though.

[Zico]

The point I'm making is that we're comparing Max to what benchmark and known quantity really? Hamilton has had multiple world championships as teammates and, apart from 2011 blip where he as beaten fair square by Jenson, and 2016 reliability, he has comfortably had the measure of them all. Verstappen has had no such reference point. If I sat into a RBR car, I'd be pretty sure Verstappen would beat me 20/20 throughout the course of the season, that doesn't make him great just because I don't have the skills to match him, much like Gasly didn't. Albon probably does, and we'll find out more next year but I think Albon shaped up pretty well to Max given the circumstances. And lets not forget Sainz and Max were neck and neck in Toro Rosso and there wasn't anything really suggesting one was better than the other.

I wasnt comparing Max with Lewis. Its you who reckons that Bottas is quicker than Max.

Max beat Ricciardo who beat Vettel..a 4 time WDC.
Bottas beat Massa but was beaten by Hamilton.

Other than yourself I think most F1 fans would recognise that Max has a more impressive record than Bottas. I dont know why you see that as a mark against Lewis though.

[journeyman racer]

There's merit in saying Bottas is quicker than Verstappen in isolation. But the point of this thread is to diminish Verstappen, since there's merit in saying that Verstappen is overall inherently more talented than Hamilton.

Verstappen also has an army of idiots that blindly follow him similar to what Hamilton has. They can shout as loud as Hamilton fans can, and they can come up with all the BS reasons why Verstappen is the best, they way Hamilton could. They can also pick holes in Hamilton record which can't be denied by Hamilton fans.

I'll tell you something about Hamilton which his fans can't deny. You'll never hear rumours of him going to RB while Verstappen is there.

Bottas is an interesting one as Zico clearly doesn't rate him at all. Obviously I do, and I think it's possible for him to overcome the position he's in to WC.

Vettel was used as a measure in comparison? What's forgotten though is that Bottas has beaten Vettel driving and inferior car, but has also been beaten by Vettel when driving a superior car.

Bottas has 7 wins, but is diminished because he's driving "the best car", and Hamilton has won a lot more. But in light of confirmation on how F1 teams operate, I think it's best to review Bottas record at MB.

Bottas has 7 wins, and all of them are legit. On those days, he's been the best driver on the day, and distinctly the best MB driver on those days. There's no freebies with his wins. No inheriting the lead when 15 secs behind Hamilton, who then broke down in the latter stages of the race. No "Thanks for helping out Valtteri, I'll handball this race to you in appreciation.". No wins thanks to a change of strategy like Hamilton has.

Now obviously with MB being slanted towards Hamilton, Bottas is swimming uphill a bit despite driving the best car. Because none of his wins aren't tainted, and he's been legitimately the best on the day. I think he should still be thought as a genuine top driver.

[airshifter]

As always, the problem is the cars. Without equal comparison, it's hard to say where any driver matches up exactly, even within the same team.

That said, Max is not going to back down from a fight. I would rate him as one of the top wheel to wheel racers of the last few years, but he needs to up his mental game and maturity. On the flip side you have Hamilton, who though proven to be a great wheel to wheel racer in the past, has rarely had to do it much recently. The car advantage and him upping his game in race management with lower risk have allowed him to spend less time banging wheels with other drivers.

Only time will tell, but I personally don't see a hype train. I see an article that shows one persons opinion which I could differ with in many ways.


But I predict Max and Charles will be the next new WDCs unless they make really bad team moves.

[zako85]

Say what you say, but I am glad that someone like Verstappen finally happened. We're not too far from Hamilton and Vettel retiring, and then Verstappen will carry the torch, he will be the standard to beat. He is the next generation. He was less lucky than Vettel, because he joined Red Bull when the team was struggling to catch the front runner. I would be curious to see what happened if Verstappen joined Red Bull in 2011 or 2012.

[journeyman racer]

Carry the torch?

What torch?

[Zico]

Carry the torch?

What torch?


Bottas's torch! ;)

[Zico]

There's merit in saying Bottas is quicker than Verstappen in isolation. But the point of this thread is to diminish Verstappen, since there's merit in saying that Verstappen is overall inherently more talented than Hamilton.

Verstappen also has an army of idiots that blindly follow him similar to what Hamilton has. They can shout as loud as Hamilton fans can, and they can come up with all the BS reasons why Verstappen is the best, they way Hamilton could. They can also pick holes in Hamilton record which can't be denied by Hamilton fans.

I'll tell you something about Hamilton which his fans can't deny. You'll never hear rumours of him going to RB while Verstappen is there.

Bottas is an interesting one as Zico clearly doesn't rate him at all. Obviously I do, and I think it's possible for him to overcome the position he's in to WC.

Vettel was used as a measure in comparison? What's forgotten though is that Bottas has beaten Vettel driving and inferior car, but has also been beaten by Vettel when driving a superior car.

Bottas has 7 wins, but is diminished because he's driving "the best car", and Hamilton has won a lot more. But in light of confirmation on how F1 teams operate, I think it's best to review Bottas record at MB.

Bottas has 7 wins, and all of them are legit. On those days, he's been the best driver on the day, and distinctly the best MB driver on those days. There's no freebies with his wins. No inheriting the lead when 15 secs behind Hamilton, who then broke down in the latter stages of the race. No "Thanks for helping out Valtteri, I'll handball this race to you in appreciation.". No wins thanks to a change of strategy like Hamilton has.

Now obviously with MB being slanted towards Hamilton, Bottas is swimming uphill a bit despite driving the best car. Because none of his wins aren't tainted, and he's been legitimately the best on the day. I think he should still be thought as a genuine top driver.



Bottas is a solid driver and one who could definately win a WDC if he had a slower team mate and the best car... but then at least 1/3 of the grid could probably do that. I just dont see him quite in the same league as Lewis, Max or Charles.

I am a fan of Max, very quick, exciting to watch, extremely focused, a real wheel to wheel racer, he has his faults..a bit banzai optimistic at times but he has clearly worked on the key areas, improved in a lot... and is now looking to be the real deal who could win many WDC's if winds up at Merc or Ferrari... but I'm certainly not a fanboy who cant see past a single driver. I'm equally also a fan of Fernando, Lewis, Charles, Daniel, Carlos, Lando and George Russell.

It sometimes makes me wonder if TBK has ever really watched anyone else other than Lewis... All I seem to read on here is Lewis, Lewis, Lewis... Yeah, he's really good, we all know that and most of us are fans of him too.. but it really starts to grate on you after a few years of it.. There are some other really great drivers too you know.
This forum used to be a great place for a lot of technical discussions, sadly that side of things has died a bit, maybe interest in F1 has waned for some members in recent years. Hope the 2021 rules can at least address some of the issues and bring some of the old guard back as this just aint what it used to be.. :(

[Mia 01]

For the moment I think the Leclerc hype is stronger than the Max one. Charles is just as fast as Max and have better race Craft.

[Nitrodaze]

For the moment I think the Leclerc hype is stronger than the Max one. Charles is just as fast as Max and have better race Craft.

Lady Ferrari, happy New Year to you :-)