WRC future [Archive] - Page 4 - Motorsport Forums

denkimi

19th October 2020, 18:47

Guys, as we discussed already in the past. It's unfortunately a fact that the society is changing and that the marketing value of motorsport will reasonably decrease in the future due to the very simple fact that promoting green energies via motorsport simply can not work becuase of the very principle that ecology and motorsport are oxymorons. Most of the petrolheads who create largest part of the motorsport audience refuse green energies, especially electricity and the people who buy electric cars largely ignore or outright refuse motorsport as a whole.

I would not put that much weight to the public talk, be it from manufacturers or FIA because in my opinion behind the curtain there are serious discussions of the carmaker managing boards how to replace the motorsport in their future marketing activities. In that case they can use whatever excuse comes to their hand to quit at any time. Not saying that FIA is not part of the problem, of course.

IMHO FIA shall ASAP start to addapt the rules to be friendliest possible for the privateers because those will most likely stay while the future with the manufacturers it's at least uncertain.
You are looking through the glasses of a rich westerner.

There are still billions of people in asia and afrika hoping to be able to buy a car. They are the fastest growing markets in the world.
They just want to replace their ox cart or moped, they don't care about ecology or global warming.

80 million cars are sold annually, and only 2 million of those are electric. That leaves a market share of 97,5% tot cars on fossil fuel.

Don't let european green propaganda cloud your vision. When government doesn't push electric cars, nobody buys them.

The petrol car is here to stay for at least a few more decades.

AnttiL

19th October 2020, 19:00

That's not true. It's only a question of rules. Countless rallycars around the world were built without manufacturer involvement.

But isn't that also a bit "historic" way of doing it? I mean, theoretically you could build new rally cars in your shop up to the existing homologation details, but who's going to develop the new parts and models if not the manufacturers?

In addition, the whole series is run on manufacturer money. The development, building and rebuilding of cars, the salaries of the drivers and all the other personnel, shipping the circus around the world. Making the cars less expensive is only a small part of that money.

It's difficult to see many privateers committing to a whole WRC season competitively, even if it was Rally2 cars...I mean, we don't see it currently in WRC2 and WRC3 anyway. It would also be hard to imagine seeing Sebastien Ogier or Ott Tänak pay for their drives instead of being paid.

In the days of tobacco and alcohol sponsoring we could probably still have privateer teams with no manufacturer support, but not today anymore...maybe one driver could get the support of Red Bull, but that's it really.

djip

19th October 2020, 19:39

Rally2 cars are for privatters. They must be as affordable as possible. Hybridization will only make them much harder to operate for the privateers and more expensive. IMHO everybody involved knows that it's nonsense but FIA needs to do something for political reasons.

Very interesting discussion and many different opinions ...but one thing is for sure : WRC1 is already way too expensive - WRC1-hybrid will only cost more. Matton telling everyone that the cost will be brought down by other means (standard parts) is just smoking grass. Like it or not, on the short term (>2022, let's assume that 2021 is just rolling as it is today), I see no other option than Rallye2+, or even Rally2 - period. Sticking with Rally1's expensive machinery is recipy for disaster (Only one manufacturer left = Toyota. Are we currently having fun in WEC with only the Toyotas ? I guess not ...)

There was one interesting comment above about the championship then being tailored for privateers, not factory teams. What would the problem be, apart from FIA not being able to cash-in the large entry fees that manufacturers have to pay ? Would the battle for top positions be less interesting if it would be Toksport vs PH sport (vs. M-sport you could argue as well) if it were still the likes of Tanak, Ogier, Neuville and co. driving ?

I like the idea of factory teams, but semi-official teams may not be that different. You would not get the service park hopsitalities and plethora of engineers watching their screens, trying to pretend that this is F1, but who cares ? I am an old fellow now and my most vivid memories of rallying was mechanics servicing the cars by the roadside. This is certainely long gone, but a small(er) size service park would not do any harm..

With Rally2 (+ or not), you could see immediately Ford, Citroen and Hyundai competing directly or through some private entity/ national dealership /Satellite teams. Toyota would have no issue building a Rally2 car, they seem to have boatloads of cash ... And the barrier to entry for a newcomer would be acceptable, both money-wise and time-wise (these WRC1 seem to need a lot of development to be competitive ...)

The cheaper / more standard the category would be, the more competition between multiple drivers. Privateers could compete on equal footing with (well) paid professionals - as it always was back in the days. And guess what : The same professional drivers and well organized teams would (almost) always win - because they are the best. How many times back in the 70's did a Bjorn Waldegard or a Hannu Mikkola get beaten by another Escort ? Never. But how many times did we get "second" tier driver have "their" day and challenge for the win, getting a podium here and there ? Often.

I shall stop here because this is really making me upset. There must be something I am missing since the solution is so obvious. Can it be that FIA (Matton) is to proud to admit he was wrong to change his mind (and this is not his fault, the world has changed dramatically in the past 12 months) ? Can it be that there are some $$$ involved that I am are not aware of, that WRC is just a cash cow for those in power who want to travel in style around the globe and live the F1 "jet set" life (which WRC cannot afford) ? Can it be that some key players are playing it solo for their own interest (read Makinen who is the ony one with no money issues and wants to remain atop with only sparring partners such as MSport) ?

My god, how come the sport i love so much since the days Rallye Monte Carlo drove (almost) in front of my house , showcasing Alpine's and Lancia's, has become such a mess ? (And btw, was I less excited by competitor #134 driving an 80hp NSU 1000TT, Datsun 120Y or Simca Rallye 2 (WRC historians, don't search for the year, the number and cars were total random pick !!) ? As long as the driver was at the limit, the joy was there - and will remain !)

The years of citroen vs. Ford were already a low, I don't want to suffer the years of Toyota alone (even against a cash-strapped MSport - playing the role of Rebellion in the WEC). Get us the Rally2 as the top category and let the system find its new equilibrium. Everything better than watching the series die...

AnttiL

19th October 2020, 20:08

With Rally2 (+ or not), you could see immediately Ford, Citroen and Hyundai competing directly or through some private entity/ national dealership /Satellite teams. Toyota would have no issue building a Rally2 car

Remember that Citroen does not have a factory team at the moment. It would be a different effort to run the whole season with three drivers than to do some development and run Østberg's car on a handful of WRC2 events.

Just because some manufacturer has a car does not mean they would join in as a manufacturer team. Remember VW with the Polo R5? Even Skoda ended their works team for this year.

I like the idea of factory teams, but semi-official teams may not be that different. You would not get the service park hopsitalities and plethora of engineers watching their screens, trying to pretend that this is F1, but who cares ? I am an old fellow now and my most vivid memories of rallying was mechanics servicing the cars by the roadside. This is certainely long gone, but a small(er) size service park would not do any harm..

Most likely the mobile servicing was also expensive with a lot of staff and vehicles and a big planning to do before the event. But I agree that we could do with smaller service park buildings.

The cheaper / more standard the category would be, the more competition between multiple drivers. Privateers could compete on equal footing with (well) paid professionals - as it always was back in the days. And guess what : The same professional drivers and well organized teams would (almost) always win - because they are the best. How many times back in the 70's did a Bjorn Waldegard or a Hannu Mikkola get beaten by another Escort ? Never. But how many times did we get "second" tier driver have "their" day and challenge for the win, getting a podium here and there ? Often.

I think you said it yourself. And we've seen the same happening in WRC2 in the past years when Skoda Motorsport was practically unbeatable with the amounts of testing they were able to do, find the perfect settings and give seat time to the drivers. Even with "equal" machinery, the factory drivers will always have an advance.

Mirek

19th October 2020, 20:43

You are looking through the glasses of a rich westerner.

There are still billions of people in asia and afrika hoping to be able to buy a car. They are the fastest growing markets in the world.
They just want to replace their ox cart or moped, they don't care about ecology or global warming.

80 million cars are sold annually, and only 2 million of those are electric. That leaves a market share of 97,5% tot cars on fossil fuel.

Don't let european green propaganda cloud your vision. When government doesn't push electric cars, nobody buys them.

The petrol car is here to stay for at least a few more decades.

The problem is that for African market WRC is hardly relevant. IMHO It has an impact in Europe or South America but very little if any elsewhere. I believe that how much they sell in Asia or Africa has little to do with motorsport. The brands involved in WRC are spending fortune on electrification, hybrids, self-driving technologies and other stuff which is exactly for "those rich westerners". They need to sell that and to do so they need to promote it. The issue is that WRC is becoming less and less a place suitable for that. It really isn't about promoting cars for the poor, sorry to say it like that but an advertisement on football stadium works better there.

But isn't that also a bit "historic" way of doing it? I mean, theoretically you could build new rally cars in your shop up to the existing homologation details, but who's going to develop the new parts and models if not the manufacturers?

In addition, the whole series is run on manufacturer money. The development, building and rebuilding of cars, the salaries of the drivers and all the other personnel, shipping the circus around the world. Making the cars less expensive is only a small part of that money.

It's difficult to see many privateers committing to a whole WRC season competitively, even if it was Rally2 cars...I mean, we don't see it currently in WRC2 and WRC3 anyway. It would also be hard to imagine seeing Sebastien Ogier or Ott Tänak pay for their drives instead of being paid.

In the days of tobacco and alcohol sponsoring we could probably still have privateer teams with no manufacturer support, but not today anymore...maybe one driver could get the support of Red Bull, but that's it really.

I shall have been more precise, I guess. I didn't mean the nearest future per se, rather a more distant one. I expect (and of course I may be wrong) that there will be less and less manufacturer involvement in the sport in the future. That doesn't mean the sport will end, it may instead turn a bit in a Dakar way. Hence why I think that the existing homologation system which, let's be honest, exists mainly to protect manufacturer exclusivity will become a major issue.

I am well aware that few years back I was advocating steps to keep manufacturers involved at any cost. That still applies however from the long-term perspective I see that a point where this approach would have to be abandoned is getting closer.

What would you propose? Current WRCars are clearly too expensive for privateers but you don’t seem keen on Rally2 being the top tier.

I am not pretending to know what to do though. It will be difficult to find the new course for sure but IMHO a spaceframe buggy is definitely a good idea to start with.

19th October 2020, 21:13

I am not pretending to know what to do though. It will be difficult to find the new course for sure but IMHO a spaceframe buggy is definitely a good idea to start with.

It might make sense from an engineering point of view, but to me that is not rally. Being at least loosely based on real road cars is what makes/made rally unique.

djip

19th October 2020, 21:47

I think you said it yourself. And we've seen the same happening in WRC2 in the past years when Skoda Motorsport was practically unbeatable with the amounts of testing they were able to do, find the perfect settings and give seat time to the drivers. Even with "equal" machinery, the factory drivers will always have an advance.

Yes but the difference would not be 15+ minutes at rally end. And most important : If you make a mistake and lose a few minutes, you end up down the order, not a guaranteed top 6. As I said, top teams and top drivers would always be at the forefront, but other could mix it up here and there. What we have today is 8 Rally1 starters = top 8 positions (unless you retire), even if you are a midfield driver with cash (Greensmith, Loubet, ...) - which is pretty boring.

The quintessence of rallying is (i) using everyday's roads (ii) everyone, from the top professional to the true amateur, competing on "equal" footing, e.g. doing the same events, same stages etc .. Rallying history is full of surprizing performances, privately entered) cars (see, from the top of my head, Alen, RAC 73, Airrikkala RAC 75, "Tony" San Remo 79)

djip

19th October 2020, 21:54

[QUOTE=Mirek;1253943] The brands involved in WRC are spending fortune on electrification, hybrids, self-driving technologies and other stuff which is exactly for "those rich westerners". They need to sell that and to do so they need to promote it. The issue is that WRC is becoming less and less a place suitable for that.

As a side comment : Why on earth hasn't FIA thought about promoting hybrid for rallying with the following script : Run the liaison on electrics (green), and the stage on petrol (performance and "show"). If your battery/energy managerment is not good enough for the liaison, you have to spend some "refilling" energy (=performance) on stage from the ICE to ensure you can make it back to service. I understand this would be hard to implement to begin with, but at least there is a clear message there ...Adding whatever "electric" horsepowers to the ICE on stage does not bring any audible message ...

Mirek

19th October 2020, 22:20

As a side comment : Why on earth hasn't FIA thought about promoting hybrid for rallying with the following script : Run the liaison on electrics (green), and the stage on petrol (performance and "show"). If your battery/energy managerment is not good enough for the liaison, you have to spend some "refilling" energy (=performance) on stage from the ICE to ensure you can make it back to service. I understand this would be hard to implement to begin with, but at least there is a clear message there ...Adding whatever "electric" horsepowers to the ICE on stage does not bring any audible message ...

Running liaisons on electricity was an idea promoted at certain point by FIA but naturally it was rejected because carrying a few hundred kilos of ballast in a competition car which is completely useless on stage makes no sense whatsoever.

doubled1978

19th October 2020, 22:20

I was against it previously, but I have to say that the more time goes on I am starting to think that a Rally-2 (or some variation of) based car is the way forward for the WRC.
Motorsport globally is generally moving to more economical rule sets, and rallying is going the other way (despite what Matton is arguing). Even F1 with all the with all its global reach has realised it needs to get hold of budgets, WEC, DTM, all too expensive to continue to exist as they were.
Rally does have a head start in that lots of Rally-2 cars already exist from multiple brands so it can react quite quickly, and the possibility of very healthy entry lists is surely a formality.
Skoda, Citroen, Ford, Hyundai, VW and hopefully Toyota could all enter factory, or factory supported private teams (Red Bull BRR VW?) almost straight away, plus any genuine good privateers. Already sounds good to me.

djip

19th October 2020, 22:28

Running liaisons on electricity was an idea promoted at certain point by FIA but naturally it was rejected because carrying a few hundred kilos of ballast in a competition car which is completely useless on stage makes no sense whatsoever.

Why do you say the extra parts (weight) don't make sense ? We tend to forget the essence rallying : Laison (=going from one place to the next) is also part of the rally - even if today it is totally uneventful. Otherwise, this is world RX ...

Humber

20th October 2020, 02:51

It is a still a technology issue that electric have different performance to the petrol/ liquid fuel cars.

If I remember correctly the EV for WRC was just to go through mountain villages etc rather than having a full noise turbo rattling through the ville.
Paddon is looking to swap batteries between stages with the Kona EV, till technology improves.

A tesla battery has near 5 times the energy density of the prius lithium battery.(80kg)

Liasion can still be eventful, a competitor did a nz event a few months back with the clutch stuck to the flywheel, relying on smashing through no clutch dogbox gear changes to complete the event.

Fast charging is improving all the time. the estonian Ultra capacitors are looking at recharging times faster than town petrol station refills.
Atlis lithium battery 2020 - 500 miles for USA pickup truck charge in 9 and half minutes. new battery configuration.
https://youtu.be/gkPg5XYf8jg?t=55

2014 Are these still operating in Bratislava? - van battery swap of 600 kg packs.
https://youtu.be/SXXbFqhlQs8

AnttiL

20th October 2020, 06:55

If you think about a car manufacturer boss, you can't expect them to be rally nuts or interested in rally (just because Akio Toyoda is). For them it could be a case of "give me a list of all the motorsports we are sponsoring and which power source they are using" - and crossing out everything which doesn't say "hybrid" or "electric".

Would Rally2 hybrid then be the right choice? Do the manufacturers have hybrid versions of the current Rally2 cars? I think there is soon a Ford Fiesta light hybrid, but I couldn't find any information about a hybrid Skoda Fabia, Citroen C3 or Hyundai i20, likely not at least with the current body types.

Remember how the 2022 Rally1 rules allow you to scale down the body? That's how the car manufacturers can market the bigger models which more typically have a hybrid system in the road car versions. It would be slightly more expensive than Rally2 hybrids, but it would give more marketing value for the manufacturers.

AnttiL

20th October 2020, 07:09

What we have today is 8 Rally1 starters = top 8 positions (unless you retire), even if you are a midfield driver with cash (Greensmith, Loubet, ...) - which is pretty boring.

Not really, we've had 8 proper factory entries in every rally, and then the Greensmiths et al on top of that. Every rally has had more than 8 WRC cars on the start line!

Yes but the difference would not be 15+ minutes at rally end.

Well, the rallies are also shorter, we should look at s/km instead. I'm picking up random rallies, like Monte 1975, the best privateer finished 3.3 s/km behind the winner. Or Finland 1976, best privateer was 2.66 s/km behind the winner.

Then we look at Monte 2020 and see that Eric Camilli with an R5 finished 2.7 s/km behind the winner. Finland 2019, Kalle Rovanperä with R5 was 1.5 s/km behind the winner!

The quintessence of rallying is (i) using everyday's roads (ii) everyone, from the top professional to the true amateur, competing on "equal" footing, e.g. doing the same events, same stages etc .. Rallying history is full of surprizing performances, privately entered) cars (see, from the top of my head, Alen, RAC 73, Airrikkala RAC 75, "Tony" San Remo 79)

You are using examples of the 70's. Rallying became a lot more professional in the 80's, mainly from the influence of Audi. After that it has been quite rare that a privateer succeeds in a rally, especially if it is a round for manufacturer points (this is why NZ and Ivory Coast rallies, for example, were sometimes won by privateers).

Tony Fassina in 1979 was seeded #2 with a Lancia Stratos against Fiat 131's and Talbot Sunbeams, how surprising is that he won?

AnttiL

20th October 2020, 07:16

Skoda, Citroen, Ford, Hyundai, VW and hopefully Toyota could all enter factory, or factory supported private teams (Red Bull BRR VW?) almost straight away

That is a big assumption, considering that Skoda, Citroen, Ford and VW do not have factory teams at the moment and Toyota doesn't have a Rally2 car ready. Citroen and Skoda just stopped their operations and VW even announced they're not interested in supporting combustion engine motorsports anymore.

djip

20th October 2020, 11:36

That is a big assumption, considering that Skoda, Citroen, Ford and VW do not have factory teams at the moment and Toyota doesn't have a Rally2 car ready. Citroen and Skoda just stopped their operations and VW even announced they're not interested in supporting combustion engine motorsports anymore.

Yet all these manufacturer have semi-private, very professional teams entering (randomly i admit) the events with their cars. How would that be any different than fully-backed teams if driven properly ? And maybe importers could now afford to support a lone entry here and there to spice it up.

All in all, I like the idea of more (supposidely) equal footing entry, instead of just having to pick from 9 drivers (3x3), always the same, at any given round. Remember the 90's ? The entry list was so full of A8 cars that you had to wait for entry #35 if not more for the first A7 .... and many of them were serious drivers that could compete, if not for the top spot, at least for the top 6.

[WRCRR]

20th October 2020, 11:56

One thing to consider is that the reign of the factory team might be coming to close in WRC as well, like it is in many other motorsport series already. WRC might no longer have full factory teams, but rather semi-official teams with varying amounts of factory support. M-Sport has already run such operation for many years. DTM is the latest series to move towards this model, ok, they were forced to do the change but WRC might eventually be as well. Like some have said, such changes might open up more possibilities for serious privateers to compete better (not win).

Unfortunately I do not see use of motorsports in marketing to grow in the future, but rather diminish. For us who are fans we might see it differently, but the rest of the world wont. I would see it important for FIA and other rallying authorities to support any path that keeps the sport healthiest, both the flagship series as well the local ones - whatever that might mean. FIA being FIA - I am not 100% positive this will happen.

AnttiL

20th October 2020, 12:11

Yet all these manufacturer have semi-private, very professional teams entering (randomly i admit) the events with their cars. How would that be any different than fully-backed teams if driven properly ? And maybe importers could now afford to support a lone entry here and there to spice it up.

How would it be different? A whole lot more expensive to pay a top driver like Ogier, Neuville or Tänak, and take three cars to every round of the season, do testing for every driver and also development work.

All in all, I like the idea of more (supposidely) equal footing entry, instead of just having to pick from 9 drivers (3x3), always the same, at any given round. Remember the 90's ? The entry list was so full of A8 cars that you had to wait for entry #35 if not more for the first A7 .... and many of them were serious drivers that could compete, if not for the top spot, at least for the top 6.

I do. And I remember the homebuilt A8 cars which at best fought with the best N4 cars.

If we ignore Safari and the rallies without manufacturer points available, here's the surprising podiums I can find:

- 1990 Corsica Chatriot 3rd (with BMW M3!)
- 1991 Corsica Cunico 3rd
- 1991 Sanremo Cerrato 3rd (Jolly Club Lancia)
- 1993 Sanremo Cunico 1st Snijers 2nd Pianezzola 3rd (Toyota, Mitsubishi and Subaru didn't even enter the rally!)
- 1993 RAC Wilson 3rd
- 1996 Finland Kytölehto 3rd
- 1997 Finland Kytölehto 3rd
- 1998 Portugal Loix 3rd

And then a bunch of F2 podiums on tarmac rallies which were in the end down to the regulations allowing the cars to be light enough.

doubled1978

20th October 2020, 14:09

That is a big assumption, considering that Skoda, Citroen, Ford and VW do not have factory teams at the moment and Toyota doesn't have a Rally2 car ready. Citroen and Skoda just stopped their operations and VW even announced they're not interested in supporting combustion engine motorsports anymore.

I said could not would, I’m making no assumptions.
But if the WRC offered an opportunity to promote at the top level with a car they have more or less already developed, and compete at a fraction of the previous cost, I’d be surprised if they all weren’t at least interested, and if they can hide it under the ‘customer’ motorsport banner through BRR in the case of VW, even better for them.
Maybe running it in similar way to GT3 would work, where all the cars are entered by private teams rather than factories, and have factory drivers placed with them. Then you could have multiple teams running the same cars as well.

Rallyper

20th October 2020, 14:38

Fast Eddie WRC

20th October 2020, 15:09

More than 10 years on and its still in the future...

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/motorsport/citroen-tests-hybrid-wrc-car

https://www.racecar-engineering.com/news/toyota-working-on-hybrid-car-for-wrc/

Rally Power

20th October 2020, 15:54

I shall stop here because this is really making me upset. There must be something I am missing since the solution is so obvious. Can it be that FIA (Matton) is to proud to admit he was wrong to change his mind (and this is not his fault, the world has changed dramatically in the past 12 months) ? Can it be that there are some $$$ involved that I am are not aware of, that WRC is just a cash cow for those in power who want to travel in style around the globe and live the F1 "jet set" life (which WRC cannot afford) ? Can it be that some key players are playing it solo for their own interest (read Makinen who is the ony one with no money issues and wants to remain atop with only sparring partners such as MSport) ?

We tend to forget that these rules were made by the FIA on a permanent dialogue with all the manus; according to what was told at the beginning, Toyota pushed for even more costly in-house developed systems but they end agreeing with common hybrids units use, and so the other 2; that’s why the FIA launched a public tender for an external supplier at the end of 2019. It’s also known that during the lockdown Adamo was praising the FIA for the new rules.

So, what went wrong afterwards? It’s hard to tell but it seems clear that the current mess could be avoided if the FIA got manus formal commitment before launching the tender, not after it, as they’re now trying to do; this way, any manu can pull-out the series at the end of ’21 without being fined...

PDF link to Hybrid systems tender:
https://legal.fia.com/web/appeloffre.nsf/F1AA7144B5082934C12584D500563B6B/$FILE/ITT%20WRC%20Hybrid%20System%202022-2024_Final%2019.12.2019.pdf?openelement
Adamo on the rules making:
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/wrc-2022-rule-making-process-the-best-adamo-has-ever-seen/

Mirek

20th October 2020, 16:44

Why do you say the extra parts (weight) don't make sense ? We tend to forget the essence rallying : Laison (=going from one place to the next) is also part of the rally - even if today it is totally uneventful. Otherwise, this is world RX ...

Because by adding 200 kg to a WRC car (just an example but the batteries and other extra stuff are heavy) you make it probably hardly any faster than an R5 car while being multiple-times more expensive. Does it make any sense to you?

Could make sence to me, because same for all...

Think about it again, please.

djip

20th October 2020, 19:40

[QUOTE=Mirek;1253984]Because by adding 200 kg to a WRC car (just an example but the batteries and other extra stuff are heavy) you make it probably hardly any faster than an R5 car while being multiple-times more expensive. Does it make any sense to you?

I get your point but "running ahead" as we say in french is not a solution either : In essence, you add a heavy (and costly) hybrid system that degrades car performances, so what is the solution : make the car even more complicated / expensive to keep the gap with the lower formula. Isn't there something twisted here ?

Mirek

20th October 2020, 20:40

djip

20th October 2020, 20:58

No. The only thing you need is to use such additional hybrid system for enhancing the vehicle performance instead of carrying it around for use on liaisons only. IMO it's actually pretty simple and logical thing.

Because you are looking at it from the performance (e.g. sport) standpoint, which makes a lot of sense. But if you look at it from the marketing (e.g. business value) side of things, it is a different story. Ideally you are correct and everyone wants high performance cars. But this whole thread is about how to ensure manufactuers stay involved in the sport, not breaking speed records...

Mirek

20th October 2020, 21:02

Sulland

20th October 2020, 21:23

Good discussions!

what is the realistic season we will see the new Rally1?
Will FIA be able to get the final rules out in time to see them in 22, or will it be 2023?

Fast Eddie WRC

20th October 2020, 21:38

This says otherwise: https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/152852/fia-signs-off-on-100kw-plugin-hybrid-for-wrc-rally1

Dirtfish and this also says Rally2 hybrid from 2023.

https://www.thecheckeredflag.co.uk/2020/10/wrc-rally2-cars-to-be-powered-by-hybrid-technology-by-2023

doubled1978

20th October 2020, 22:14

Rally Power

20th October 2020, 22:56

Because by adding 200 kg to a WRC car (just an example but the batteries and other extra stuff are heavy) you make it probably hardly any faster than an R5 car while being multiple-times more expensive. Does it make any sense to you?

The FIA tender was pretty clear: the full hybrid system max weight is 80kg and allows a peak power of 100kW (=134hp).

Even if it's not certain how that extra hybrid boost can be used on a SS, Rally1H would always be faster than current Rally2 cars once they continue to use the GREngines as their main power source.

Mirek

21st October 2020, 08:29

The FIA tender was pretty clear: the full hybrid system max weight is 80kg and allows a peak power of 100kW (=134hp).

Even if it's not certain how that extra hybrid boost can be used on a SS, Rally1H would always be faster than current Rally2 cars once they continue to use the GREngines as their main power source.

AFAIK The idea about running only liaisons on electricity was discussed and rejected before the tender was opened.

Don't get me wrong but I don't believe an 80 kg system can work with batteries able to run the car over liaisons. In my opinion such low weight suggests that the system would rather use supercapacitors or flywheels to give reasonable boost on acceleration over short period of time.

djip

21st October 2020, 10:09

They will not stay if WRC cars will not be a lot faster than R5. That is completely wrong thinking. The top class must be very clearly the top class otherwise there will be no interest in it both from the spectators and the teams. Nobody will follow WRC if the cars won't crush the supporting categories any day. And the marketing value will be zero.

As I said already, the best (factory supported) teams will get the best drivers and more testing, so they will always remain at the forefront. As Antill was underlining, the second tier teams/drivers gaining "unexpected" podiums have been scarce in the past - yet there was no free pass for the top teams, one small mistake and you were way down the charts.

And I don't buy the concept of top teams always remaining at the top. Do you enjoy Ligue 1 (french soccer) where Paris is guaranteed the top spot whatsoever year after year ? Or the Ligua where only 2 team (Real and Barça) compete ? Or F1/WEC if you wish to stay in the motoring world ?

Rally is all about mixing it up from the top tier professionals, to the begginner amateur. a pklace where you can climb the ladder on merit, not through your wallet. This is no more the case

More so, what is important for a manufactuer marketing-wise is to win and tell a good story - nobody cares if it is by 15 minutes or 5 seconds. Nobody cares how many sec/km are gained by these uber-expensive machines (provided it is good spectacle, which it would even with R5 driven by the likes of Ogier, Tanak etc ...).

I am with you from a spectator's standpoint : These Rallye1 machines are incredible to watch. But we die-hard fans, are not the marketing target of the auto makers moguls. It is the average Joe that opens his newspaper or watches a TV commercial - and he could not care less of what is under the body of the car.

Better being rich and famous (e.g. plethora of spectacular Rally1 machinery) which you are defending, but i would rather not turn poor and lonely (e.g. a handful, if not less, of top class cars crushing the rest of the field and cruising through a rally) - and this is what we are facing if we continue on the path laid down by Matton et al...

AnttiL

21st October 2020, 10:23

Rally is all about mixing it up from the top tier professionals, to the begginner amateur. a pklace where you can climb the ladder on merit, not through your wallet. This is no more the case

What? WRC is one of the few motorsport "leagues" where you can get to the top league with a big wallet but no merit, while even the best skill may not be enough without budget. And it has always been that way.

I mean, we can't be suggesting there should be a rule that the winner of every country's national championship gets a full season in WRC? Or on the contrary, you should win your own country championship before being allowed to drive in WRC?

AnttiL

21st October 2020, 10:34

AFAIK The idea about running only liaisons on electricity was discussed and rejected before the tender was opened.

Don't get me wrong but I don't believe an 80 kg system can work with batteries able to run the car over liaisons. In my opinion such low weight suggests that the system would rather use supercapacitors or flywheels to give reasonable boost on acceleration over short period of time.

Remember that although it would be idealistic to run all liaisons on electric, marketing-wise it doesn't give anything to the manufacturers because it's rare that cars are spectated on liaisons, except for cities and service parks - which are going to be run on electric motor in the 2022 rules! And for sure the WRC Promoter will require plenty of footage of this to the WRC+ highlights

Rally Power

21st October 2020, 15:03

AFAIK The idea about running only liaisons on electricity was discussed and rejected before the tender was opened.
Don't get me wrong but I don't believe an 80 kg system can work with batteries able to run the car over liaisons. In my opinion such low weight suggests that the system would rather use supercapacitors or flywheels to give reasonable boost on acceleration over short period of time.

Besides the power boost on the stages, the hybrid system is also required to be used in electric mode inside urban areas on the liaisons.

You can check page 18 of the PDF or take Matton’s words to wrc.com: https://www.wrc.com/en/news/season-2020/wrc/wrc-hybrid--the-biggest-change-for-a-generation/

Rallyper

21st October 2020, 15:05

Remember that although it would be idealistic to run all liaisons on electric, marketing-wise it doesn't give anything to the manufacturers because it's rare that cars are spectated on liaisons, except for cities and service parks - which are going to be run on electric motor in the 2022 rules! And for sure the WRC Promoter will require plenty of footage of this to the WRC+ highlights

I thought it over (blink to Mirek :) ) and still don´t see why not? @AnttiL I would say it´s not what spectators can see on liason, it´s about what marketing people will do about it. advertisings etz...

Mirek

21st October 2020, 18:24

Besides the power boost on the stages, the hybrid system is also required to be used in electric mode inside urban areas on the liaisons.

You can check page 18 of the PDF or take Matton’s words to wrc.com: https://www.wrc.com/en/news/season-2020/wrc/wrc-hybrid--the-biggest-change-for-a-generation/

Short range on electricity is probably possible but remember that in WRC liaisons are up to several hundred kilometers long.

I thought it over (blink to Mirek :) ) and still don´t see why not?

Count with me. If you go for two hours at an average 20 kW power (no idea how much WRC in average need on the liaison but let's take Tesla S value as a very rough example), you need 40 kWh plus some reserve, so let's say 50 kWh. The best Tesla batteries have 160 Wh/kg. That means for two hours of very energy-effective driving you need 312 kg of batteries! Now take into account that longer liaisons than that exist in WRC.

Rallyper

22nd October 2020, 09:14

Short range on electricity is probably possible but remember that in WRC liaisons are up to several hundred kilometers long.

Count with me. If you go for two hours at an average 20 kW power (no idea how much WRC in average need on the liaison but let's take Tesla S value as a very rough example), you need 40 kWh plus some reserve, so let's say 50 kWh. The best Tesla batteries have 160 Wh/kg. That means for two hours of very energy-effective driving you need 312 kg of batteries! Now take into account that longer liaisons than that exist in WRC.

For sure you are right about that. But still, must it be the digital way? 1? or 0?
There should be ways in the middle. You know Swedish word "lagom"?

AnttiL

22nd October 2020, 09:27

Everything is negotiable. The routes of the rallies could be changed with shorter liaisons and/or remote charging stations added.

AnttiL

22nd October 2020, 09:29

? @AnttiL I would say it´s not what spectators can see on liason, it´s about what marketing people will do about it. advertisings etz...

Yeah, and if we have a light hybrid system, the cars resemble the manufacturer hybrid models and WRC+ shows footage of the cars entering the service park or going through a city silently, the marketing department is satisfied. No need for heavy battery packs or remote charging stations to get through hundreds of kilometres of liaison. Also the actual sport is affected as little as possible (could we still see someone retire because of the hybrid system failing?)

Franky

22nd October 2020, 09:42

Guys, when you talk about silence and marketing, you do realise the silent film era died nearly a century ago for a good reason. People like sound.

AnttiL

22nd October 2020, 09:50

Guys, when you talk about silence and marketing, you do realise the silent film era died nearly a century ago for a good reason. People like sound.

So we should just turn WRC+ into silent films and say they're all electric cars, that's the way to save the series! :bounce:

denkimi

22nd October 2020, 11:47

So we should just turn WRC+ into silent films and say they're all electric cars, that's the way to save the series! :bounce:
In the end it doesn't really matter what's under the hood. The people who know usually care about rallying, and those who don't know can be satisfied by telling them whatever they want to hear.

Not long ago ford called their wrc engine ecoboost and put huge stickers on their wrc cars, even though the wrc engine has nothing in common with the ordinary ecoboost engines.

Marketing is all lies, i see no reason why it should be different in wrc. If they just put a hybrid logo on the cars, 95% of the population will just believe it.

tommeke_B

22nd October 2020, 11:58

Not long ago ford called their wrc engine ecoboost and put huge stickers on their wrc cars, even though the wrc engine has nothing in common with the ordinary ecoboost engines.

You're wrong. The previous generation of the Fiesta WRC used the Ecoboost 1.6 from the Fiesta ST for their WRC. Of course apart from the engine block most components were different. With the current generation it's a different engine, and little to no visibility for the "ecoboost" logo.

T16

22nd October 2020, 12:05

I hate to say it, but this extreme E series is gathering a staggering amount of momentum. I'm certainly not saying it's a competitor for rallying, but BBC1 coverage, multiple F1 champion involvement and it hasn't even started yet.
Although it's a different sport, will it absorb some of the fans rallying was aiming to capture, or possible poach a some current ones?

Fast Eddie WRC

22nd October 2020, 13:25

You're wrong. The previous generation of the Fiesta WRC used the Ecoboost 1.6 from the Fiesta ST for their WRC. Of course apart from the engine block most components were different. With the current generation it's a different engine, and little to no visibility for the "ecoboost" logo.

They still have Powered by Ecoboost stickers on the cars since 2017 and they always use it in their media:

M-Sport @MSportLtd
Oct 11
Both EcoBoost-powered Ford Fiesta WRCs safely through the first stage of the day #WRC #MSPORTERS

https://fordauthority.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Ford-Fiesta-WRC-Livery-015.jpg

https://fordauthority.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Ford-Fiesta-WRC-Livery-009.jpg

denkimi

22nd October 2020, 14:32

You're wrong. The previous generation of the Fiesta WRC used the Ecoboost 1.6 from the Fiesta ST for their WRC. Of course apart from the engine block most components were different. With the current generation it's a different engine, and little to no visibility for the "ecoboost" logo.
Even the block won't be the same. It may come from the same factory but that's about it.

All i'm trying to say is that they can lie about it and nobody cares. So why not just tell people the cars are hybrids without them actually being so.
If necessary we could put some small cheap electric unit in it that will power the car for 1 kilometer or so. Then it won't even be lying.

Tarmop

22nd October 2020, 15:27

They can call it how they like, if it`s an Ecoboost, then it is an ecoboost, just Ford`s trademark for their Turbo engines.
And indeed, previous Fiesta WRC had a modified stock block (as can be seen in the video below), but the last versioon i believe was casted for only WRC cars.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYbMk50awO0

AnttiL

22nd October 2020, 16:58

If necessary we could put some small cheap electric unit in it that will power the car for 1 kilometer or so. Then it won't even be lying.

You’ve just described the 2022 hybrid rules :)

Mirek

22nd October 2020, 17:04

In the end it doesn't really matter what's under the hood. The people who know usually care about rallying, and those who don't know can be satisfied by telling them whatever they want to hear.

You probably never watched an electric race yourself, right? Otherwise you would know that it's boring as hell. From my own experience you can sleep just next to the track and not only because it's quiet but also because the behavior of electric cars is so much more boring that it hurts (the torque vectoring, traction, torque curve, everything is way too ideal to give any excitement; in simple words the cars not only sound lazy but they also look lazy even though they are not).

22nd October 2020, 18:54

(the torque vectoring, traction, torque curve, everything is way too ideal to give any excitement; in simple words the cars not only sound lazy but they also look lazy even though they are not).

Similar problem with hybrid F1. 1000BHP but they look pretty easy to drive.

I’m not sure this would apply to a proper gravel rally stage though?

skarderud

23rd October 2020, 12:17

Heard something about Subaru and Mitsubishi is going back to WRC from 22/23, but is it anything in it?

Sent fra min SM-G950F via Tapatalk

mknight

23rd October 2020, 13:01

You probably never watched an electric race yourself, right? Otherwise you would know that it's boring as hell. From my own experience you can sleep just next to the track and not only because it's quiet but also because the behavior of electric cars is so much more boring that it hurts (the torque vectoring, traction, torque curve, everything is way too ideal to give any excitement; in simple words the cars not only sound lazy but they also look lazy even though they are not).

I never watched a WRC-level rally with an electric car.... probably cause there hasn't been one.
How "lazy" behavior of the car will be depends a lot on what the rules are for everything. Still can't see how it can't be exciting jumping sideways at 150 kph on fast gravel rally. Neither can I see how it is going to be quiet on gravel.

On tarmac it depends much more on the rules, but say a 2006 WRC with 3 active diffs on smooth tarmac in Spain isn't exactly massive excitement either. As to the sound, tires are by far the loudest sound coming from an R5 car doing over 90 kph.

Rally Power

25th October 2020, 10:31

As to the sound, tires are by far the loudest sound coming from an R5 car doing over 90 kph.

Actually you can only notice R5's tires noise on the slow braking and sliding zones. Anyway, I'm always puzzled to see fans supporting full EV's in the WRC, or any other top motorsport series, when those still faill to get a 3% share in the car world market.

mknight

25th October 2020, 11:25

Actually you can only notice R5's tires noise on the slow braking and sliding zones. Anyway, I'm always puzzled to see fans supporting full EV's in the WRC, or any other top motorsport series, when those still faill to get a 3% share in the car world market.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BG0Ka3yobJA&list=RDCMUCYmEE0OoZc9pP4Ai5ju-OiQ&index=2

Most of the sound in that vid is from tires (not sliding). Anyway that is tarmac, on fast gravel you only hear the gravel sounds. Remember that lack of sound is nothing new, N4 Evos were similar.

EVs (and hybrids) is what is promoted by manufacturers in Europe. (WRC is very much European series, so much teams are even mandated by the rules to be based in Europe).
If you want manufacturers in the sport it helps to have a vague resemblance to what they are trying to sell. This has historically been the main thing setting rallying appart from things like F1.

Sure lately it's more about brand building, but building a brand on petrol while trying to promote EV/hybrid is difficult.

Rally Power

25th October 2020, 11:45

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BG0Ka3yobJA&list=RDCMUCYmEE0OoZc9pP4Ai5ju-OiQ&index=2
Most of the sound in that vid is from tires (not sliding). Anyway that is tarmac, on fast gravel you only hear the gravel sounds. Remember that lack of sound is nothing new, N4 Evos were similar.
EVs (and hybrids) is what is promoted by manufacturers in Europe. (WRC is very much European series, so much teams are even mandated by the rules to be based in Europe).
If you want manufacturers in the sport it helps to have a vague resemblance to what they are trying to sell. This has historically been the main thing setting rallying appart from things like F1.
Sure lately it's more about brand building, but building a brand on petrol while trying to promote EV/hybrid is difficult.

Mate, I don't need to see videos as I've watched R5's on more than a dozen tarmac rallys since 2014 (and even more on gravel, btw).

On the WRC future, all manus (apart VW) agreed on having Hybrids (using a main ICEngine) as the next step, so there's no reason to defend full EV's use at this point.

Sulland

25th October 2020, 12:39

The only motorsport on top level where fully electric, with todays battery tech can make a show is rallycross.

Formula-e is boring, and the same in MotoGp with their version.

Hybrid is a dead end, dont spend money develop it in rally. Maybe Hydrogen could work, but that is still not used by many manufacturers.

So petrol is still the only logical way for rally.
But todays top cars are to expensive, and fancy.

i feel we are at a Group B moment in time, but before the accident.
Take it down a notch, and use Rally2 as new top class.
Maybe the Joker system need to be adjusted a bit, so cost do not spiral out of control. Max price need to be kept.

it could bring more manus in, when cost is not that high, and they can sell cars to privateers.
Number of top class cars will explode, in most WRC rounds, since there are so many cars out there, and they can now be bought for less than 100 00€ second hand.
we can again get local boys that can copete with the grown ups, and bring back more dimensions to the championship than the 8-10 cars we have today.

djip

25th October 2020, 19:05

AnttiL

25th October 2020, 19:41

Hybrid is a dead end, dont spend money develop it in rally.

Can you give more arguments for this?

For me EV is the long distance future of WRC (in 10 years), and hybrid is a good bridge towards that. We need manufacturers to fund high level WRC, and having the word "hybrid" in the car model name might be crucial.

Going to Rally2 as the main class would be going backwards in technology, and going towards something like ERC where the top drivers must fund their own programs. It could be inevitable, but I wouldn't plan on doing it.

AnttiL

25th October 2020, 19:43

it could bring more manus in, when cost is not that high, and they can sell cars to privateers.

When M-Sport builds a rally car and sells it, how much does the manufacturer get? I mean, do they care if their cars can be sold to privateers or not?

I think most of you exaggerate how much the price of one car is in the budget of a manufacturer. If you keep everything as it is (3 top drivers per team, 14 rallies) but just change WRC to Rally2 cars, it doesn't reduce the overall budgets by that many percentages...

AnttiL

25th October 2020, 19:46

Can't agree more. And remember, even without the terrible corsica accident, the future of Gp.B was bleak - Everyone apart from Peugeot and Lancia would have dropped out because of too high costs / too high a barrier to entry for newcomers. This is why Gp.S was on the wings, simpler, cheaper formula. It's even better now as you point out because there is such a base of R5 cars out there ...

Group B wouldn't have continued alongside Group S. Group S would have replaced Group B for 1988. And most cars would have been just converted into Group S.

Metro debuted in RAC 1985, Citroen in Monte 1986, Ford in Sweden 1986, Group B still attracted new teams, instead of teams dropping out.

Tauri_J

26th October 2020, 02:32

Group B wouldn't have continued alongside Group S. Group S would have replaced Group B for 1988. And most cars would have been just converted into Group S.

Metro debuted in RAC 1985, Citroen in Monte 1986, Ford in Sweden 1986, Group B still attracted new teams, instead of teams dropping out.

1980s were the golden age of motosport imo. Every manufacturer wanted to be a part of motosport and the effort they put into their projects was enourmous in terms of money and workforce.

AnttiL

26th October 2020, 07:39

1980s were the golden age of motosport imo. Every manufacturer wanted to be a part of motosport and the effort they put into their projects was enourmous in terms of money and workforce.

What about 90's and the early 00's? I think it was quite similar. And there were still the big tobacco and alcohol sponsorships....you can't rewind the clock to those days.

26th October 2020, 08:55

I think most of you exaggerate how much the price of one car is in the budget of a manufacturer. If you keep everything as it is (3 top drivers per team, 14 rallies) but just change WRC to Rally2 cars, it doesn't reduce the overall budgets by that many percentages...

What about development costs and running costs? Not to mention there are already more manufacturers with Rally2 cars than WRCs.

If we lose Hyundai then we’re down to MSport vs Toyota which on recent form isn’t much of a competition.

AnttiL

26th October 2020, 09:02

Not to mention there are already more manufacturers with Rally2 cars than WRCs.

If we lose Hyundai then we’re down to MSport vs Toyota which on recent form isn’t much of a competition.

But how many manufacturer teams we have now that are running Rally2 cars? We only have M-Sport and Hyundai. VW is not a manufacturer team and likely never will be again. Skoda just ended their program and is under the same VAG policy as VW. Citroen, I'm not sure what kind of a deal they're running with Østberg. Toyota doesn't have a car yet.

26th October 2020, 09:11

But how many manufacturer teams we have now that are running Rally2 cars? We only have M-Sport and Hyundai. VW is not a manufacturer team and likely never will be again. Skoda just ended their program and is under the same VAG policy as VW. Citroen, I'm not sure what kind of a deal they're running with Østberg. Toyota doesn't have a car yet.

Skoda are still there, just with a different name.

And don’t you think that if Rally2 was to become the top class with resulting increase in publicity those manufacturers you mentioned wouldn’t make more of an effort?

AnttiL

26th October 2020, 11:38

Skoda are still there, just with a different name.

Toksport? If so, I didn't know.

And don’t you think that if Rally2 was to become the top class with resulting increase in publicity those manufacturers you mentioned wouldn’t make more of an effort?

Do they want to promote these models? Some of those bodyshells are already quite old.

Like I said, there's a big difference in budget to run 1-2 drivers in 8 rallies (planned minimum of WRC2) compared to running 3 drivers in 14 events. And there's a difference in salary with drivers like Gryazin and Tänak. In fact, the former most likely brings money in, the latter is one of the most expensive drivers.

26th October 2020, 18:12

Toksport? If so, I didn't know.

Solberg is still run by Skoda Motorsport.

Do they want to promote these models? Some of those bodyshells are already quite old.

So are current i20 and Yaris.

Like I said, there's a big difference in budget to run 1-2 drivers in 8 rallies (planned minimum of WRC2) compared to running 3 drivers in 14 events. And there's a difference in salary with drivers like Gryazin and Tänak. In fact, the former most likely brings money in, the latter is one of the most expensive drivers.

The primary reason to bring down running costs might be to make the sport more accessible to some strong drivers with some but limited budget. If we’re going down to 1.5 works teams it’s a virtual certainty that entry lists would be better with cars which were cheaper to run.

Everyone likes the current WRCars but it looks increasingly like the sport is going to have to make some major changes to secure it’s long term health. What’s your alternative?

AnttiL

26th October 2020, 18:37

Solberg is still run by Skoda Motorsport.

I was under the impression he just rents their services. There's a big difference paying someone to drive a car that you pay to be build, prepared, fixed and developed instead of someone bringing in all the budget (and paying his own salary).

Skoda was still a proper factory team last year, they ran even five drivers in 2018, remember?

So are current i20 and Yaris.

And the current WRC cars are coming to the end of their lifecycle after next year, new ones are made anyway, no problem. Well, it's true though that Hyundai just updated their Rally2 car and Toyota would make a new one anyway...

The primary reason to bring down running costs might be to make the sport more accessible to some strong drivers with some but limited budget.

They can still show their skills in WRC3.

Everyone likes the current WRCars but it looks increasingly like the sport is going to have to make some major changes to secure it’s long term health. What’s your alternative?

Again, the current WRC cars are coming to the end of their lifecycle after next year. I think the 2022 Rally1 hybrids are the right decision.

If Hyundai decides to leave WRC, I'm sure they would leave even if the series was run with Rally2 cars.

Jarek Z

26th October 2020, 19:06

Solberg is still run by Skoda Motorsport.

Why is he a WRC3 and not WRC2 driver then? :)

Sulland

26th October 2020, 19:26

There are currently 5 competitive brands in Rally2.
Two more manufacturers have cars that are homologated. Proton by FIA, and Mitsubishi regional and national.
If Rally2 gets top status for a few years, I would guess Mitsubishi would bless FIA homologation.

If so, we have 7 brands to choose from, in addition to the 208 R5 that is still used by privateers, and can be a cheap ticket into R5.

By doing it this way, it will buy time for FIA and manufacturers to agree on the way ahead, and be sure that the new Rally1 class will be sustainable for the car makers boardrooms, also after Corona.

26th October 2020, 20:00

I was under the impression he (Solberg) just rents their services.

I don’t know for sure but I think it’s more complicated than that..

They can still show their skills in WRC3.

Coverage of WRC3 is practically nil. If ‘Rally2’ was the top class then marketing exposure would be hugely greater.

Again, the current WRC cars are coming to the end of their lifecycle after next year. I think the 2022 Rally1 hybrids are the right decision.

So far we have one manufacturer rumoured to withdraw because of those rules and none joining. Can you be confident that will change?

AnttiL

26th October 2020, 20:11

So far we have one manufacturer rumoured to withdraw because of those rules

This is a huge assumption. It could be just a company policy change, not regarding any rule changes.

AnttiL

26th October 2020, 20:14

There are currently 5 competitive brands in Rally2.
Two more manufacturers have cars that are homologated. Proton by FIA, and Mitsubishi regional and national.
If Rally2 gets top status for a few years, I would guess Mitsubishi would bless FIA homologation.

If so, we have 7 brands to choose from, in addition to the 208 R5 that is still used by privateers, and can be a cheap ticket into R5.

Difficult to believe Mitsubishi would homologate the Mirage by now, it's an old model and an old car. Proton could be raced but no one is racing it, maybe there's a reason to it? The Peugeot is also very old.

This is like saying "you could still start any WRC event today with a VW Polo R WRC or the Mini, we could have six WRC brands!"

Rally Power

27th October 2020, 01:06

Again, the current WRC cars are coming to the end of their lifecycle after next year. I think the 2022 Rally1 hybrids are the right decision.

The problem isn't on the 2022 Rally1 Hybrids anymore, but on the possibility of having only two manus committed to them, which would be terrible for the WRC credibility.

We can still hope that Hyundai will sign in, but seeing the FIA endlessly waiting for their answer, while avoiding to study alternative solutions to WRC top class (like using the Rally2 48v Hybrids), seems a recipe to disaster.

AnttiL

27th October 2020, 06:23

The problem isn't on the 2022 Rally1 Hybrids anymore, but on the possibility of having only two manus committed to them, which would be terrible for the WRC credibility.

We can still hope that Hyundai will sign in, but seeing the FIA endlessly waiting for their answer, while avoiding to study alternative solutions to WRC top class (like using the Rally2 48v Hybrids), seems a recipe to disaster.

Like I've said, it's just an assumption that Rally1 rules are the reason for Hyundai possibly switching to circuit racing. They could still leave if WRC continued on Rally2 cars (remember how Citroen said they will quit if hybrids don't come by 2022...and they still quit).

If we went now to Rally2 cars, we would have only Hyundai and M-Sport as manufacturer teams who have a Rally2 car ready...and Hyundai could still quit....

Whether we want to go to Rally2 or Rally1 cars, we need to have the assumption that new teams join in, whether they are new brands or returns of old ones (Skoda, Citroen etc). And/or hope that Hyundai doesn't quit.

djip

27th October 2020, 06:58

If we went now to Rally2 cars, we would have only Hyundai and M-Sport as manufacturer teams who have a Rally2 car ready...and Hyundai could still quit... .

Maybe ... but better 2 manufacturers + a large number of privateers, semi-privateers, one-offs etc ... that can compete on equal footing. It is already a little dull to have only 9 cars fighting for the top spot, it would be horrendous with opnly 6 (if you consider that MSport could be competitive enough given their dire financial situation). Have you enjoyed WEC lately ? Not me ...

Regarding new entries, i am sure Toyota would develop an R5 car - cash is not an issue for them. And for others, the business model is then. becoming markedly different as a large chunk of the development costs can be offset by the sale of cars to privateers (M-Sport model, which Huyndai and Citroen have followed lately).

djip

27th October 2020, 07:12

AnttiL

27th October 2020, 07:24

Maybe ... but better 2 manufacturers + a large number of privateers, semi-privateers, one-offs etc ... that can compete on equal footing. It is already a little dull to have only 9 cars fighting for the top spot, it would be horrendous with opnly 6 (if you consider that MSport could be competitive enough given their dire financial situation).

Yes, we could have this happening on single rallies, but the championship title would still be decided between the factory guys. It's also possible FIA would put a similar points divide as WRC2/WRC3 now where you need to enter and commit for the whole series in order to score WRC points, otherwise your points just go to WRC2...:eek:

Have you enjoyed WEC lately ? Not me ...

I don't watch other motorsports than rallying.

Regarding new entries, i am sure Toyota would develop an R5 car - cash is not an issue for them. And for others, the business model is then. becoming markedly different as a large chunk of the development costs can be offset by the sale of cars to privateers (M-Sport model, which Huyndai and Citroen have followed lately).
This is the part that many of you just don't understand. M-Sport is a separate company who builds and sells/rents rally cars. Skoda, Citroen and Hyundai are doing the same with their customer programs, but this business model doesn't pay the salaries of the drivers nor the participation of a 14 round WRC season. The budget for this must come either from the car manufacturer or a big sponsor.

AnttiL

27th October 2020, 07:35

On another topic : Did anyone ever thought if significant cost cuts could not be made by proper adjustments to the calendar ? For once i never understood why no one has ever considered / thought about "double headers" (2 events close enough, one week apart to save travel costs). Corsica and Sardigna would be the closest, but of course one. is gravel and the other tarmac... One could consider finland-Estonia, Deutschland-Croatia-Belgium even Catalunya, NZ-Australia, Chile-Agentina, etc ...

Chile-Argentina and Portugal-Sardegna were done like this in 2019. And would have been done this year as well, had it not been for COVID-19. In 2021 Portugal-Sardegna and Estonia-Finland are planned like this.

I am wondering also as well is the FIA could not break this stupid 3 days - sunday noon ending rule which I don't think has ever reached its goal (sunday noon air TV coverage ...) and his killing the spirit and the "rythm" of events. Now that they all look the same, it is less appelaing to fans with pretty empty 9-to-12 and 2-to5 days, to the average joeand probably to manufacturers PR guys (to make up a nice and unique story).

Why would'nt events be somehow different : some short, 2 days or 1.5 days "sprint" events (basically craming today's SS mileage in 2 days) a few "endurance events (aka Turkey) and a few longer (3,4 full days ?) "major" events that would be the jewels of the crown and could be sold as such to casual fans ? Would'nt that save costs as well and increase the PR value of the sport ? Ideas ?

There's a whole lot of things which affect the itineraries. You mentioned the "empty 9-to-12 and 2-to5 days". In some countries (Wales, Sardegna) there's a long distance from a reasonable service park location to reasonable stages, and the liaisons just need to be tackled at a certain maximum average speed which is determined by each country. This just results in long breaks between the service and the stages, and it cannot be avoided. There's also other things like remote refuels and recce schedules which are limiting the itinerary design.

If you're interested in this topic, take look at this post https://itgetsfasternow.com/2019/02/27/wrc-itineraries-by-the-rule-book/

As for killing the rhythm and spirit, I think this is highly subjective and I don't think most fans care about the events being always the same.

As for having events that could have different lengths, I've written about this a few years ago on my blog

https://itgetsfasternow.com/2018/01/03/short-or-long-wrc-rallies-why-not-have-both/

Obviously there's a lot of questions to answer there. Should a long rally award the same amount of points than short? How would we choose who gets to do a short and who a long one? Would privateers avoid the long events because of higher costs?

Also worth reading if you're interested is my article where I interviewed the clerks of the courses of Wales Rally GB and Rally Finland, on what it would mean to shorten or lengthen the rallies by one day. Not as simple as it sounds like.

https://itgetsfasternow.com/2020/06/15/wrc-event-in-three-days/

I like Tarkiainen's idea of ending the rally at Saturday evening, but I have no idea about how that would change TV ratings or would any channels broadcast rallying on Saturday evening when there's lots of competition for air time?

AndyRAC

27th October 2020, 08:57

Have you enjoyed WEC lately ? Not me ...

Ah, the top class has been pretty poor. However, the WEC (and most GT/Sportscar series) is about the classes; the various GTE-Pro/Am are normally good battles, which are shown on the TV as much as the headline LMP1 class. The 'lesser' classes in Sportscars are more important than the lesser classes in WRC.

Sulland

27th October 2020, 10:37

Why is he a WRC3 and not WRC2 driver then? :)

I belive Skoda changed plans due to Corona. He therefor used his Polo more than planned.

AnttiL

27th October 2020, 10:45

https://www.skoda-motorsport.com/en/skoda-motorsport-cooperates-with-oliver-solberg/

To me this sounds like they're giving some discount to Oliver because he's a young talent, like in a sponsorship, but they are not paying salary to him.

Maybe someone knows better than our guesses?

TypeR

27th October 2020, 10:57

Skoda simply wasn't able to bring the car to certain rallies due to the virus and strict rules..

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/oliver-solberg-returns-to-skoda-fabia-for-rally-italy/

AnttiL

27th October 2020, 11:24

https://www.skoda-motorsport.com/en/skoda-team-member/jan-kopecky-en/

If you look at Skoda Motorsport's website, they have 2020-updated profiles for Jan Kopecky and his co-driver Jan Hlousek, but not for Oliver Solberg or anyone else.

Rally Power

27th October 2020, 11:33

Like I've said, it's just an assumption that Rally1 rules are the reason for Hyundai possibly switching to circuit racing. They could still leave if WRC continued on Rally2 cars (remember how Citroen said they will quit if hybrids don't come by 2022...and they still quit).

Maybe I wasn't clear: I'm not assuming that Hyundai would continue with other rules; I'm saying that it's impossible, for the sport sake, to start a new WRC era with only 2 manus involved.

If there's a real risk of Hyundai to leave, the FIA must react ASAP; they can't wait much longer to get the 3 manus formal commitment and they must immediately find alternative rules if that commitment fail.

Rally2 Mild Hybrids, probably on a Rally2+ mode (with a larger restrictor and more aero, in order to distinguish them from those used in national series), seems to be the most obvious alternative.

Sulland

27th October 2020, 13:43

Difficult to believe Mitsubishi would homologate the Mirage by now, it's an old model and an old car.

If there is a manufacturer that need some PR, it is Mitsubishi!
The Mirage is still around, but have had a small mid life upgrade, mostly make up. So Mpart could upgrade as well.
I guess they have a few motorsport engineers in Mitsubishi that could help MPart if needed, to get a upgrade ir two before FIA Homologation.

djip

27th October 2020, 16:15

Yes, we could have this happening on single rallies, but the championship title would still be decided between the factory guys. It's also possible FIA would put a similar points divide as WRC2/WRC3 now where you need to enter and commit for the whole series in order to score WRC points, otherwise your points just go to WRC2...:eek:

This WRC2/WRC3 is total nonsense and should be binned - period. The concept of registering for championship poiunts is total nonsense (iother than FIA cashing in big checks from manufacturers) and should be binned - period. Keep it simple : top 10 get points, period. You don't need a PhD to understand this is the best way of doing things.

This is the part that many of you just don't understand. M-Sport is a separate company who builds and sells/rents rally cars. Skoda, Citroen and Hyundai are doing the same with their customer programs, but this business model doesn't pay the salaries of the drivers nor the participation of a 14 round WRC season. The budget for this must come either from the car manufacturer or a big sponsor.

How would it be different for, say, Skoda, to do what MSport is doing today (running a 14 events program with 2 drivers ?)If MSport can make it with virtually no cash from Ford, i believe a (better) factory supported team could do it ...

djip

27th October 2020, 16:16

and thanks Antill for the very interesting articles (from your links)

AnttiL

27th October 2020, 16:32

This WRC2/WRC3 is total nonsense and should be binned - period. The concept of registering for championship poiunts is total nonsense (iother than FIA cashing in big checks from manufacturers) and should be binned - period. Keep it simple : top 10 get points, period. You don't need a PhD to understand this is the best way of doing things.

I agree, but just saying it could happen

How would it be different for, say, Skoda, to do what MSport is doing today (running a 14 events program with 2 drivers ?)If MSport can make it with virtually no cash from Ford, i believe a (better) factory supported team could do it ...

Lappi came in with his payroll from Citroen, and Suninen has Jouhki's backing. Lappi and Suninen have also their personal sponsors, and of course Greensmith has oil company money. I think the rest is just balancing between marketing the company and its products, sponsor money and investing in the drivers career with the possibility to get a share of their future manufacturer team salary.

It's not that Skoda is not able to do 14 events with two drivers, it's just likely that they don't want to do it, since they quit their WRC2 program while winning and having just released a new evolution of the Fabia.

EDIT: The biggest difference with M-Sport to the likes of Citroen Racing and Skoda Motorsport must be that it's not owned by Ford. They do their own business and are not relying on marketing money.

27th October 2020, 19:25

Regarding new entries, i am sure Toyota would develop an R5 car -

Already confirmed they are.

steve.mandzij

27th October 2020, 21:05

The only downside I see to having R5s as the top class is the spectacle. They aren't too interesting to spectate but I attribute that mostly to the lack of noise. If they made the cars louder, and maybe even restricted suspension travel, that would be exciting.

TheFlyingTuga

27th October 2020, 21:15

Steve Boyd

27th October 2020, 23:59

If there is a manufacturer that need some PR, it is Mitsubishi!
Haven't they decided that the Mitsubishi name won't be used in Europe in the future?
Hardly seems worth marketing the name in a European centred championship if the cars aren't sold there.

er88

28th October 2020, 02:03

Seeing top drivers on it would bring the spectacle. Remember Ogier and Mikkelsen on the Skoda'sYeah...., in s2000 Skoda's that were banging, popping and screaming. They could be heard miles away in a forest.

The noise is so important in rallying, at least to me. It adds a lot to the spectacle besides the speed and driver ability.

I don't think it's a coincidence the IRC was so huge during the peak S2000 years, and seriously scaring and rivaling the WRC..., or that the WRC is now so popular and attendances are rising everywhere..., with the 17 cars sounding so impressive.

The R5s can be driven well but they just don't sound exciting. It takes away from their spectacle..., which is an already big drop in terms of raw speed and performance from the current top class.

djip

28th October 2020, 07:38

The noise is so important in rallying, at least to me. It adds a lot to the spectacle besides the speed and driver ability.

I can't agree more: Way back then in the 70's , the noise was such that you could hear cars coming from miles away. Coupled with the lighs flashing in the mountains at night this was sheer excitement event before the cars were within sight.

However i believe noise is one of things that needs/will have to be eradicated the most for the sport to survive. This is what "authorities" want and it has already killed night rallying. Keep in mind that not everyone is a fan, alas ...

Jarek Z

28th October 2020, 08:30

The noise is so important in rallying, at least to me. It adds a lot to the spectacle besides the speed and driver ability.

I agree. The noise of the roaring engines was one of the things that attracted me to rallyling in the eighties. Without the noise it will be like a chess tournament.

Jarek Z

28th October 2020, 08:33

However i believe noise is one of things that needs/will have to be eradicated the most for the sport to survive. This is what "authorities" want and it has already killed night rallying. Keep in mind that not everyone is a fan, alas ...

I get what you mean, but rallying without noise? It's like playing heavy metal without amps - it doesn't make sense.

AnttiL

28th October 2020, 08:43

I get what you mean, but rallying without noise? It's like playing heavy metal without amps - it doesn't make sense.

That's actually funny since nowadays most touring heavy metal bands use digital modeling devices like Fractal Axe-FX to shape their sound, and there might not be a single guitar speaker cabinet on stage, all sound to the guitarist coming only from the in-ear-monitors ;) sorry OT

Rallyper

28th October 2020, 09:39

Yeah...., in s2000 Skoda's that were banging, popping and screaming. They could be heard miles away in a forest.

The noise is so important in rallying, at least to me. It adds a lot to the spectacle besides the speed and driver ability.

I don't think it's a coincidence the IRC was so huge during the peak S2000 years, and seriously scaring and rivaling the WRC..., or that the WRC is now so popular and attendances are rising everywhere..., with the 17 cars sounding so impressive.

The R5s can be driven well but they just don't sound exciting. It takes away from their spectacle..., which is an already big drop in terms of raw speed and performance from the current top class.

Shouldn´t be rocket science to get the R5´s to sound more.

Fast Eddie WRC

28th October 2020, 10:47

I have said for years that the car noise is at least 50% of the spectacle of rally. I'm sure most peoples first impression of a rally car live is the roar that you hear well before you see it, building the anticipation and excitement.

It's also why I pestered WRC+ for a no-commentary option.

As for the future (electric) cars, noise will be necessary for safety and Paddon has confirmed his EV car will have it no problem.

Jarek Z

28th October 2020, 13:11

That's actually funny since nowadays most touring heavy metal bands use digital modeling devices like Fractal Axe-FX to shape their sound, and there might not be a single guitar speaker cabinet on stage, all sound to the guitarist coming only from the in-ear-monitors ;) sorry OT

I don't know what this Fractal Axe-FX is, but I'm sure those heavy metal bands still sound loud! :)

Sulland

28th October 2020, 13:35

It's also why I pestered WRC+ for a no-commentary option.

Amen

AnttiL

28th October 2020, 14:30

I don't know what this Fractal Axe-FX is, but I'm sure those heavy metal bands still sound loud! :)

I'd say the discussion with tube amps against digital modeling devices has been, for the past 20 years, quite similar as ICE's against EV's in rallying, but it seems that the future has been finally adpoted in music production, let's see how it turns out in motorsport. (and yes, amplifiers are still used in the PA system to make the audience hear the band). Sorry OT again, but it's a sort of similar debate.

For me noise is not that important, competition is number one, and visual of the performance more important than the sound.

I'm sure there's people who think motorsport is nothing compared to horse races because you don't have the right smells ;)

Mirek

28th October 2020, 18:12

This... ...is how you do marketing for electric cars.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T09H-qkKiBI

Franky

28th October 2020, 18:28

This... ...is how you do marketing for electric cars.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T09H-qkKiBI

That's how you do marketing. But the main thing you come away with is 'There's a new Porsche'.

steve.mandzij

28th October 2020, 20:44

Seeing top drivers on it would bring the spectacle. Remember Ogier and Mikkelsen on the Skoda'sR5s sound really terrible... When I went to Rally Argentina I found the Maxi Rally cars to be far more exciting to watch because of the sound.

Additionally, R5s are meant to be driven cleanly and neatly, so it would 100% play against more aggressive drivers to go down that route.

AnttiL

29th October 2020, 07:43

Additionally, R5s are meant to be driven cleanly and neatly, so it would 100% play against more aggressive drivers to go down that route.

Rally2 cars aren't as durable as WRC's so it would require a more cautious approach to get to the finish. Technical and mechanical failures, suspension collapsing or driveshafts snapping would be more common. It would change the nature of the sport.

T16

29th October 2020, 08:14

29th October 2020, 08:49

Shouldn´t be rocket science to get the R5´s to sound more.

Indeed..

Anyone know what they changed in the WRC engine regulations to make them sound better? Some of the 2L WRC engines were particularly quiet and boring sounding (Focus and 307)

29th October 2020, 09:01

Rally2 cars aren't as durable as WRC's so it would require a more cautious approach to get to the finish. Technical and mechanical failures, suspension collapsing or driveshafts snapping would be more common. It would change the nature of the sport.

I think that’s a bit of an exaggeration. The top R5 crews push their cars pretty hard and there aren’t that many mechanical problems for them these days. Sure if the Tanaks and Ogiers and Neuvilles are driving them they are pushing them a bit harder but I don’t see that it would change the nature of the sport.

Every rally is a balance between driving as fast as possible whilst not crashing or damaging the car or tyres no matter what you are driving.

wyler

29th October 2020, 09:05

AnttiL, you keep suggesting that the current Rally2 cars aren’t up to the job of a power increase etc, but couldn’t they just beef everything (suspension / shafts etc) up a little, so the cars can handle more power / harder driving etc?

basically a rally1...

AnttiL

29th October 2020, 09:25

AnttiL

29th October 2020, 09:30

I think that’s a bit of an exaggeration. The top R5 crews push their cars pretty hard and there aren’t that many mechanical problems for them these days. Sure if the Tanaks and Ogiers and Neuvilles are driving them they are pushing them a bit harder but I don’t see that it would change the nature of the sport.

Every rally is a balance between driving as fast as possible whilst not crashing or damaging the car or tyres no matter what you are driving.

Difficult to say who is pushing hard and who not. Many drivers who graduate from WRC2 to WRC have said that the level of competition and pace is so different, you have to go flat out all the time whereas in WRC2 it's not so tough.

As for retirements in WRC2, in Sardegna for example Fourmaux, Camilli and Gryazin retired with mechanical issues, and Østberg lost a lot of time with driveshaft issues.

Meanwhile, we have Tidemand and Bulacia leading WRC2 and WRC3, and they have rarely been the fastest crews on stage times. And remember how ERC was won last year?

AnttiL

29th October 2020, 09:37

Also read this about the difference between the WRC/Rally1 GRE engine and the Rally2 engine

On source said: “While the potential for working from a Rally2 [R5] base engine might have been more economic, it would have raised questions over reliability and durability as well as performance.

“We would need to have more [Rally2-based] engines to get through the season, whereas we can make the GRE last longer.”

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/wrc-keeps-current-engine-base-for-2022-hybrid-move/

and comments from Lappi

“I have experience from the R5 which is definitely weaker than the WRC.

“I lost a couple of times the wheel already on the R5. And now I’ve got used to the go flat out everywhere [style of a World Rally car], so then I’ll need to start to remind myself of four years ago and try to be smart.”

https://dirtfish.com/rally/how-proposed-2022-wrc-rules-may-change-driving-styles/

T16

29th October 2020, 10:05

basically a rally1...

Well, then let them run R5 or R5 plus and if they aren't as reliable, that becomes part of the challenge.

AnttiL

29th October 2020, 10:19

Well, then let them run R5 or R5 plus and if they aren't as reliable, that becomes part of the challenge.

Like I said, changing the nature of the sport. Some probably like this, some not.

AndyRAC

29th October 2020, 10:24

Like I said, changing the nature of the sport. Some probably like this, some not.

If it means we have a viable series, then so be it. Most sports tend to change/evolve....those that don't get left behind.

T16

29th October 2020, 10:25

Like I said, changing the nature of the sport. Some probably like this, some not.

beggars can't be choosers, I guess.

skarderud

29th October 2020, 10:33

Like I said, changing the nature of the sport. Some probably like this, some not.It was the nature of the sport, just these last years it has been close to no technical errors.

Sent fra min SM-G950F via Tapatalk

TypeR

29th October 2020, 11:36

It was the nature of the sport, just these last years it has been close to no technical errors.

Sent fra min SM-G950F via Tapatalk
Well.. I bet Tänak's fans can make a nice list of technical errors.. :D
+ others also..

Fast Eddie WRC

29th October 2020, 13:22

Back on noise and R5's... some did sound pretty good and loud:

https://youtu.be/vip4mlImlTg

https://youtu.be/plzr19eRmYs

T16

29th October 2020, 13:31

Back on noise and R5's... some did sound pretty good and loud:

https://youtu.be/vip4mlImlTg

https://youtu.be/plzr19eRmYs

I think many on here are talking about what they’re like live on a stage, not just on screen.
If you have ever seen one compared to a 2017 WRC car, you may understand the difference.

wyler

29th October 2020, 14:03

Well, then let them run R5 or R5 plus and if they aren't as reliable, that becomes part of the challenge.

That's not the point. Point is make a better (and cheaper) top tier category. moving the second tier to be first as it is doesn't seem enough. nor pumping it to better performance, as would be same as what's is already there.

T16

29th October 2020, 14:27

Mirek

29th October 2020, 16:38

So how do they make it ‘better and cheaper’ then?

First thing you can do for the works teams to make things cheaper and much easier is to get rid of stock bodyshell. Make it like Dakar. With the hybrids it makes even more sense to design a prototype spaceframe which suits perfectly without a need to pay gazillion hours of experts trying to modify a thing designed for something completely different and by people who can change the thing anytime for their own purpose and thus further comlicate your work.

IMHO it's not a good idea to promote the Rally2/R5 to be the top tier because it has served exceptionally well to the privateers and I'am afraid that once works teams start to compete with these cars in the WRC they would only become more complex, more expensive and harder to maintain. Plus of course they lack the wow effect which is needed at the top level.

wyler

29th October 2020, 17:06

So how do they make it ‘better and cheaper’ then?

go back in the discussion, there's plenty of ideas.
Fia is talking with manus to share some common ground, personally I think they're eyeing at some good point (common cage, standard hybrid, scalable bodyshell)

T16

29th October 2020, 17:31

First thing you can do for the works teams to make things cheaper and much easier is to get rid of stock bodyshell. Make it like Dakar. With the hybrids it makes even more sense to design a prototype spaceframe which suits perfectly without a need to pay gazillion hours of experts trying to modify a thing designed for something completely different and by people who can change the thing anytime for their own purpose and thus further comlicate your work.

IMHO it's not a good idea to promote the Rally2/R5 to be the top tier because it has served exceptionally well to the privateers and I'am afraid that once works teams start to compete with these cars in the WRC they would only become more complex, more expensive and harder to maintain. Plus of course they lack the wow effect which is needed at the top level.

Interesting point on the body shell. I wonder what the cost saving might be as a %age of the overall running cost for a team versus current?

T16

29th October 2020, 17:34

go back in the discussion, there's plenty of ideas.
Fia is talking with manus to share some common ground, personally I think they're eyeing at some good point (common cage, standard hybrid, scalable bodyshell)

I have followed it closely. Apart from Mirek's comment on the body shell above (and potentially using the rally2 formula) I genuinely can't remember seeing much about making it cheaper. I don't understand what you mean by better. Is it the discussion that's around the cars moving around a little more if the suspension changes?
Genuinely interested in what might make it both better and cheaper, but I got the impression from this thread that it was going to become more expensive (Hybrid unit) and potentially not as good to watch (slower) if the Rally2 format was adopted?

29th October 2020, 20:27

Mirek

29th October 2020, 21:16

We can talk down Rally2s and sing the virtues of hybrid cars with Frankenstein prototype bodyshells all we like, but has there actually been any talk of new manufacturers joining under the proposed new rules? That’s the key thing surely.

One advantage of spaceframe prototypes is that those don't need manufacturers for anything. You can make such class free to enter for whatever team no matter what relationship it has with any stock manufacturer. Again same thing what we have in Dakar or many circuit series.

I am well avare that it's something going directly against rallying herritage but at some point it's necessary to think about certain transformation to keep the sport attractive in the future.

Rally Power

29th October 2020, 22:48

That's not the point. Point is make a better (and cheaper) top tier category. moving the second tier to be first as it is doesn't seem enough. nor pumping it to better performance, as would be same as what's is already there.

The problem is that, apparently, only 2 manus are now interested on a whole new top tier category and having 2 manus is simply too short for any credible top motorsport series, as the WRC itself experienced on the late 00's.

Besides, there's urgency to bring the Hybrid label to Rally and the announced Rally2 mild hybrids seems to be a easy and cheap way to do it (for sure it'll take less time and money to adapt a eTurbo to current R5's than turn WRC cars into plug-in hybrids).

Btw, with a specific Rally2+ class as the main WRC category, manus would have the chance to improve R5's speed and reliabilty without hurting the prices and specs of the Rally2 cars used in national series.

Mirek

29th October 2020, 23:18

Btw, with a specific Rally2+ class as the main WRC category, manus would have the chance to improve R5's speed and reliabilty without hurting the prices and specs of the Rally2 cars used in national series.

Don't tell me that you actually believe in this.

Rally Power

29th October 2020, 23:32

Don't tell me that you actually believe in this.

Why not?

There's room to keep Rally2 in national or regional series and have an upgraded Rally2+ (or Super Rally2) category just for the WRC.

AnttiL

30th October 2020, 05:09

I have followed it closely. Apart from Mirek's comment on the body shell above (and potentially using the rally2 formula) I genuinely can't remember seeing much about making it cheaper. I don't understand what you mean by better. Is it the discussion that's around the cars moving around a little more if the suspension changes?
Genuinely interested in what might make it both better and cheaper, but I got the impression from this thread that it was going to become more expensive (Hybrid unit) and potentially not as good to watch (slower) if the Rally2 format was adopted?

I think we must be ready to give away some aspects of the sport we have now with the current cars in order to save the series. There's only bad choices, and we must choose the least bad.

Where do you get the impression that Rally1 cars will be slower than Rally2 cars?

AnttiL

30th October 2020, 05:12

The problem is that, apparently, only 2 manus are now interested on a whole new top tier category and having 2 manus is simply too short for any credible top motorsport series, as the WRC itself experienced on the late 00's.

How many manufacturers are interested in running the series with Rally2 cars? I don't think we have confirmation from any manufacturers on this.

djip

30th October 2020, 07:44

How many manufacturers are interested in running the series with Rally2 cars? I don't think we have confirmation from any manufacturers on this.

True - and I don't buy the idea of R5+. If you make it different/upgraded, costs arise , it will be limited to a number of "selected" (works ?) teams, and i agree that then there may be no point in moving away from Rally1

It is either you keep it as is, with two well separated class, with tier 1 reserved for the happy few (whichever Manu wants to invest), or you "downgrade" to basic R5 (with eturbo if you want a green label) that everyone can afford. The championship is then mostly run for private / works-supported entries. In other words, it is either WEC, or GT3.

There is no point in debating "what could be". WEC at its peak with 3 full works team + multiple works teams running the second class (GTEPro) was awsesome. And so was WRC a few years back with 4 works team fighting tooth and nail. But today's WEC (with now only a single top team and a diwndeling number of works GTEPro teams) may give an hindsight of were WRC is heading is Matton and the FIA boys remain stubborn ...

AnttiL

30th October 2020, 07:58

But today's WEC (with now only a single top team and a diwndeling number of works GTEPro teams) may give an hindsight of were WRC is heading is Matton and the FIA boys remain stubborn ...

I would say this is a reflection on how the world has changed over the last decade, and even more so during the last two years, rather than FIA's decisions.

Rally Power

30th October 2020, 12:51

How many manufacturers are interested in running the series with Rally2 cars? I don't think we have confirmation from any manufacturers on this.

There's no confirmation once running Rally2 (ideally in Rally2+ mode) as the WRC top category isn't still under consideration, but it certainly has a larger potential to attract more manus than Rally1 Hybrids now has.

MSport and Citroen (the C3 continues to be developed at Versailles and it's Citroen who's paying PHSport to run Ostberg) are already running Rally2 cars, Toyota is developing the Yaris and Hyundai and Skoda would get the perfect chance to promote their new models ('21 i20 and '22 Fabia), at least on a semi-official way (supporting top private teams).

Btw, let me ask you the other way around: do you really believe that it's viable to start Rally1 Hybrids with only 2 manus involved?

T16

30th October 2020, 14:34

I think we must be ready to give away some aspects of the sport we have now with the current cars in order to save the series. There's only bad choices, and we must choose the least bad.

Where do you get the impression that Rally1 cars will be slower than Rally2 cars?

Yeah - agreed that we seemingly only have bad choices now. I was questioning where in the thread there was a consensus that the new format was going to be 'better and cheaper' according to Wyler. I thought the new Rally1 would be more expensive, especially with the hybrid element.

I'm not sure where I said I thought Rally1 would be slower that Rally2 - I must have got my words mixed up if I did.

On a side note: I didn't realise the implications of s space framed chassis, i.e. that it may allow for more entrants and potentially cheaper costs.

AnttiL

30th October 2020, 15:52

MSport and Citroen (the C3 continues to be developed at Versailles and it's Citroen who's paying PHSport to run Ostberg) are already running Rally2 cars, Toyota is developing the Yaris and Hyundai and Skoda would get the perfect chance to promote their new models ('21 i20 and '22 Fabia), at least on a semi-official way (supporting top private teams).

This sounds like a lot of petrolhead logic. It feels like I'm talking to walls, but I'm repeating my points which I've already said in previous posts.
- Developing, renting and selling Rally2 cars is business of the racing departments, which doesn't require budget from the manufacturer, like running a whole WRC season would
- The drivers in WRC2 teams are mostly bringing budget in, not being paid by the manufacturer (not sure about Østberg though)
- Skoda and Citroen just quit their factory teams in rallying. What makes you believe they would return?
- I don't believe that the manufacturers want to put money in marketing their ICE cars in rallying
- Even if we slap on hybrid systems onto the Rally2 cars, it's a problem for the manufacturers that the street models of these cars are mostly not hybrid.

Btw, let me ask you the other way around: do you really believe that it's viable to start Rally1 Hybrids with only 2 manus involved?

No, it doesn't sound good, but 2 is more than 1 or 0.

Mirek

30th October 2020, 16:59

- Skoda and Citroen just quit their factory teams in rallying. What makes you believe they would return?

At this moment it looks like Škoda withdrew even from its home national championship here in Czechia for 2021. It's said it would only support privateers.

wyler

30th October 2020, 18:12

Yeah - agreed that we seemingly only have bad choices now. I was questioning where in the thread there was a consensus that the new format was going to be 'better and cheaper' according to Wyler. I thought the new Rally1 would be more expensive, especially with the hybrid element.

I'm not sure where I said I thought Rally1 would be slower that Rally2 - I must have got my words mixed up if I did.

On a side note: I didn't realise the implications of s space framed chassis, i.e. that it may allow for more entrants and potentially cheaper costs.

Never said there was consensus, just saying we are reflecting on this, as Fia and manus are doing. How to make rally1 better and cheaper. Every idea is good, if about rally1 specs. I just "ruled out" bringing rally2 as top class cause doensn't seem the way thing's are going in the button room, we discussed it already a lot here, and -simply- the topic was about rally1 class.
By the way: if we talk about pumping rally2 with power, aero &performance, we are basically talk about rally1, a different thing than rally2.
Agreed on space frame chassis, one of the viable idea people is discussing! : )

AnttiL

30th October 2020, 18:28

By the way: if we talk about pumping rally2 with power, aero &performance, we are basically talk about rally1, a different thing than rally2.

Rally1 will have a hybrid system, space frame construction, common safety cage and GRE engine. The body shell can be scaled down. These are the major conceptual differences to Rally2, which is modified from a production car.

However, the cost and performance of a pumped-up Rally2 car could be close to a Rally1 car. Lots of unknowns.

Rally Power

30th October 2020, 18:29

This sounds like a lot of petrolhead logic. It feels like I'm talking to walls, but I'm repeating my points which I've already said in previous posts.
- Developing, renting and selling Rally2 cars is business of the racing departments, which doesn't require budget from the manufacturer, like running a whole WRC season would
- The drivers in WRC2 teams are mostly bringing budget in, not being paid by the manufacturer (not sure about Østberg though)
- Skoda and Citroen just quit their factory teams in rallying. What makes you believe they would return?
- I don't believe that the manufacturers want to put money in marketing their ICE cars in rallying
- Even if we slap on hybrid systems onto the Rally2 cars, it's a problem for the manufacturers that the street models of these cars are mostly not hybrid.

Sorry mate, but you're missing the most important point: motorsport budgets are being slashed by the manus and each series must make overall costs more competitive and attractive.

For sure some expenses (staff, logistics, consumable) will cost more or less the same no matter what car is used, but the development and running costs (way higher than drivers salaries) are directly linked to the tech level of the cars.

High-tech Rally1 cars costing over €600k (their hybrid system alone was priced around 150k) will certainly make manus think twice when compared to Rally2 cars price (largely below 300k).

Btw, mild hybrids are becoming current in any car segment.

wyler

30th October 2020, 19:34

Rally1 will have a hybrid system, space frame construction, common safety cage and GRE engine. The body shell can be scaled down. These are the major conceptual differences to Rally2, which is modified from a production car.

However, the cost and performance of a pumped-up Rally2 car could be close to a Rally1 car. Lots of unknowns.

exactly. what's the point in evolving rally2 in something (current) rally1-ish?

The point is get a better and cheaper rally1... (that was only for T16!) :)

AnttiL

30th October 2020, 20:22

Sorry mate, but you're missing the most important point: motorsport budgets are being slashed by the manus and each series must make overall costs more competitive and attractive.

For sure some expenses (staff, logistics, consumable) will cost more or less the same no matter what car is used, but the development and running costs (way higher than drivers salaries) are directly linked to the tech level of the cars.

High-tech Rally1 cars costing over €600k (their hybrid system alone was priced around 150k) will certainly make manus think twice when compared to Rally2 cars price (largely below 300k).

I beg to disagree here, I would claim the difference between Rally1 and Rally2 cars doesn't make that much of a difference in a yearly budget of a WRC team. It's more dramatic for privateers.

A tyre, a liter of gasoline, a night at a hotel, a flight, monthly salary of an employee, headquarters, service park buildings, a day of testing - everything costs the same, no matter if it's WRC or R1 car.

Let's assume a season with Rally1 costs 100 money units for a manufacturer and the same season with Rally2 costs 75 money units. Do they invest the 75 in something they don't want/need to promote (ICE's, car models without hybrid), or 100 in something they do want to promote (hybrids, street models with hybrids)?

mknight

30th October 2020, 20:43

This... ...is how you do marketing for electric cars.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T09H-qkKiBI

The two top Ford Mustang Mach E 1400 vids have 6.9 mil views in total:

https://youtu.be/4-7jBLqSlzg

What you posted is just an enlarged version of a road-side board and clearly doesn't have large ambitions. Even more funny that it's using pictures from motorsport to promote the car.

Mirek

30th October 2020, 21:07

The two top Ford Mustang Mach E 1400 vids have 6.9 mil views in total:

https://youtu.be/4-7jBLqSlzg

What you posted is just an enlarged version of a road-side board and clearly doesn't have large ambitions. Even more funny that it's using pictures from motorsport to promote the car.

That event was not about the youtube video but about the event in Abu Dhabi... Think about it please, far far majority of youtube views are from teenagers and schoolchildren who are in no way customers for Taycan. The people living in or visiting Abu Dhabi definitely are.

Rally Power

30th October 2020, 22:08

I beg to disagree here, I would claim the difference between Rally1 and Rally2 cars doesn't make that much of a difference in a yearly budget of a WRC team. It's more dramatic for privateers.

For sure it's harder for privateers but the €/km cost difference of the cars will always be there, no matter who's running them. You've to consider the price difference of a GREngine or that of a transmission, suspension or any simpler, yet improved, part of a WRC car, regardind R5's, and besides the production costs of the components there's also their wear and rebuild expenses. At every test or rally day all those price differences will be reflected on each car running costs, becoming huge at the end of a season. The same applies to development.

Rally Power

30th October 2020, 22:31

exactly. what's the point in evolving rally2 in something (current) rally1-ish?

I believe no one is asking to make Rally2 cars to be like Rally1 cars; Rally2 are already close to pre-2017 WRC's performance but they cost only half of what a 2016 WRC was costing at the time. They mostly need to improve their reliability, changing some parts that are too close to production; it wouldn't take a fortune to do it and Rally2+ could work as a sensible Rally2 upgrade, a bit like Rally4/Rally5 cases.

AnttiL

31st October 2020, 06:03

For sure it's harder for privateers but the €/km cost difference of the cars will always be there, no matter who's running them. You've to consider the price difference of a GREngine or that of a transmission, suspension or any simpler, yet improved, part of a WRC car, regardind R5's, and besides the production costs of the components there's also their wear and rebuild expenses. At every test or rally day all those price differences will be reflected on each car running costs, becoming huge at the end of a season. The same applies to development.

But at the same time some of the components will last longer, like the GRE engine. It was estimated that the cost of using Rally2 engines would be equal to using five times more expensive GRE engines, because you would need five times more of Rally2 engines during a season.

I know that using Rally2 cars would be somewhat cheaper, you don't need to tell me that. I'm just not convinced that manufacturers are interested in putting down that money to promote something that's not in their marketing preference.

I might be wrong though. We will never be able to say which one is better because we cannot have both classes be the main class at the same time. If one fails, we can always say that the other would have succeeded.

AnttiL

31st October 2020, 06:05

Thinking further, I think M-Sport would be the company that would benefit the most from going to Rally2 as the main class. They operate on a smaller budget than other teams and they would get direct promotion for the rally cars they sell the most and they are not relying on manufacturer funding or promotion plans.

T16

31st October 2020, 08:38

exactly. what's the point in evolving rally2 in something (current) rally1-ish?

The point is get a better and cheaper rally1... (that was only for T16!) :)

Ha Ha - Still waiting ;)

wyler

31st October 2020, 09:08

I believe no one is asking to make Rally2 cars to be like Rally1 cars; Rally2 are already close to pre-2017 WRC's performance but they cost only half of what a 2016 WRC was costing at the time. They mostly need to improve their reliability, changing some parts that are too close to production; it wouldn't take a fortune to do it and Rally2+ could work as a sensible Rally2 upgrade, a bit like Rally4/Rally5 cases.

not a matter of asking for it. it is way simpler. i ll try to say that again: if u upgrade a rally2, it will become some sort of rally1 type car. that's all. my point is: work on a real rally1 development, not a mild copy that you call rally2+. i understand that is made on budget premises, but manus already told it will make no difference.
by the way, manus will invest same amount of money as rally1 in development and extras that will not really share with customers. privateers will remain a second tier completely as for '16 wrc.

wyler

31st October 2020, 09:17

Ha Ha - Still waiting ;)

me too!
hardest of the tasks (expecially in this global pandemic)

then we can discuss what's the meaning for "better". i mean a regulation that help mantain this level of resonanceas a sport (or increase) and make manus (expecially new ones) happy to invest in it.

T16

31st October 2020, 09:31

me too!
hardest of the tasks (expecially in this global pandemic)

then we can discuss what's the meaning for "better". i mean a regulation that help mantain this level of resonanceas a sport (or increase) and make manus (expecially new ones) happy to invest in it.

I genuinely feel like this thread and all the questions and potential solutions it has proposed, is probably not far off what the promotors and FIA are going over themselves.
Feels like nobody knows what the best solution is for the sport right now.
I wonder how it works behind the scenes. Are the promoters and FIA considering getting potential manufacturers and gauging their interest in the series if the regulations become X, Y or Z, or have they really committed to the 2022 regs in the hope that there may be new manus join the current crop.
Trouble is, as we all know, that current crop is not looking as committed as they said they would be when the regs were drawn up.
I just can’t see how they can plough on knowing they are potentially going to lose Hyundai as a team, never mind the fact that nobody else seems interested.
If this is about saving face, then now isn’t the time. Hopefully they’ll see that they are going down the wrong path and start consultation to understand how manufacturers would use rallying successfully as a marketing vessel and use this to pave the way.
The environmental aspect and now the pandemic have massively changed the face of motoring worldwide and rallying looks like it’s going to take a huge hit unless it can find a way to be part of motoring’s bigger picture going forward and not some private club for enthusiasts.
This really is crisis time for the WRC and all indicators say that if they don’t make some drastic changes, they’ll get left behind.

AnttiL

31st October 2020, 09:48

I wonder how it works behind the scenes. Are the promoters and FIA considering getting potential manufacturers and gauging their interest in the series if the regulations become X, Y or Z, or have they really committed to the 2022 regs in the hope that there may be new manus join the current crop.
Trouble is, as we all know, that current crop is not looking as committed as they said they would be when the regs were drawn up.
I just can’t see how they can plough on knowing they are potentially going to lose Hyundai as a team, never mind the fact that nobody else seems interested.

First of all, I'm quite sure the manufacturers have their voice in the meetings when new regulations are thought up.

Also, this Hyundai thing is fairly new. Earlier this year Adamo spoke positively about the new rules https://dirtfish.com/motorsport/wrc-2022-rule-making-process-the-best-adamo-has-ever-seen/

Also interesting quote from him:

Adamo speculated that the focus on hybrid technology may increase once the world has exited the pandemic, or hybrids may become the “last kick” to keep the large automotive names involved in motorsport at all.

If someone at the top of Hyundai (the car company, not the rally team) decides that they are not supporting rallying anymore, it doesn't matter if they should be driving Rally1, Rally2 or Rally5 cars.

cali

31st October 2020, 10:15

https://www.facebook.com/1754872701416959/posts/2774011169503102/

We need these cars, no manufacturer teams and budget cap. Nothing else is needed. I know I'm only dreaming but this is a dream scenario.

Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk

T16

31st October 2020, 10:16

First of all, I'm quite sure the manufacturers have their voice in the meetings when new regulations are thought up.

Also, this Hyundai thing is fairly new. Earlier this year Adamo spoke positively about the new rules https://dirtfish.com/motorsport/wrc-2022-rule-making-process-the-best-adamo-has-ever-seen/

Also interesting quote from him:

If someone at the top of Hyundai (the car company, not the rally team) decides that they are not supporting rallying anymore, it doesn't matter if they should be driving Rally1, Rally2 or Rally5 cars.

If the manufacturers (and I assume you mean non-current entrants) have their voice heard, then where are they all? And why seemingly have the FIA come up with a set of regulations that only Toyota seem to want to commit to now?

Also, it's completely irrelevant if the Hyundai thing is new or not. It's up to them if they change their mind and up to them when they change it (if that's what they are going to do).

AndyRAC

31st October 2020, 10:28

Hyundai have been in on the LMDh discussions for a while - it's only recently the WRC media have known about it.

While there is a great deal of uncertainty for all motorsport, as usual the WRC is looking like it might be the worst hit; Toyota and M-Sport - with Hyundai possibly off and nobody else. Not the basis for a sustainable series going forward.

Humber

31st October 2020, 10:50

Good, the wrc can go back to like the old days 40 plus years ago. If the local driver turned up in a Ford he had built in his own shed turned up at a WRC event, he could score points for Ford and himself.

AnttiL

31st October 2020, 10:56

If the manufacturers (and I assume you mean non-current entrants) have their voice heard, then where are they all? And why seemingly have the FIA come up with a set of regulations that only Toyota seem to want to commit to now?

No, it's the current manufacturers that get in the FIA meetings. I also remember that in 2018 or so Skoda also got the invite to the meetings, and that raised a rumor of them startin a WRC plan (who knows, maybe they had that plan back then but then something in economy changed).

As for new manufacturers, again we can only guess but I would assume mr. Matton and the manufacturer would have a phone call or something before planning anything?

Also, it's completely irrelevant if the Hyundai thing is new or not. It's up to them if they change their mind and up to them when they change it (if that's what they are going to do).
Not completely irrelevant. All the current manufacturers had agreed on the new rules, but now all of a sudden someone at Hyundai decided otherwise. Thus the rules are not to blame.

T16

31st October 2020, 11:03

No, it's the current manufacturers that get in the FIA meetings. I also remember that in 2018 or so Skoda also got the invite to the meetings, and that raised a rumor of them startin a WRC plan (who knows, maybe they had that plan back then but then something in economy changed).

As for new manufacturers, again we can only guess but I would assume mr. Matton and the manufacturer would have a phone call or something before planning anything?

Not completely irrelevant. All the current manufacturers had agreed on the new rules, but now all of a sudden someone at Hyundai decided otherwise. Thus the rules are not to blame.

The uncertain element remains if the new regs were designed to appease those currently involved, or with the input of new potential entrants. Either way, they don’t look like they are enticing anyone, apart from a Cumbrian that runs his business of the back of involvement in the sport and a Japanese guy who’s passion it is.
And you know what I mean about Hyundai, I’m not saying it’s the rules to blame, I’m saying it’s irrelevant if they showed interest in the past and now they don’t. Fact is, it’s looking like they are not interested anymore.

wyler

31st October 2020, 11:53

The uncertain element remains if the new regs were designed to appease those currently involved, or with the input of new potential entrants. Either way, they don’t look like they are enticing anyone, apart from a Cumbrian that runs his business of the back of involvement in the sport and a Japanese guy who’s passion it is.
And you know what I mean about Hyundai, I’m not saying it’s the rules to blame, I’m saying it’s irrelevant if they showed interest in the past and now they don’t. Fact is, it’s looking like they are not interested anymore.

there are technical time tough, u can't change a reg a year because some manus change their mind in months time...

31st October 2020, 20:27

I beg to disagree here, I would claim the difference between Rally1 and Rally2 cars doesn't make that much of a difference in a yearly budget of a WRC team. It's more dramatic for privateers.

But if the top level of the sport is more accessible to privateers that’s a good thing right? Especially at a time when direct manufacturer backing is more shaky.

Let's assume a season with Rally1 costs 100 money units for a manufacturer and the same season with Rally2 costs 75 money units. Do they invest the 75 in something they don't want/need to promote (ICE's, car models without hybrid), or 100 in something they do want to promote (hybrids, street models with hybrids)?

The proposals are for mild hybrid systems to be introduced to Rally2 cars from 2023. I’m sure that could be brought forward a year without too much trouble.

Mirek

31st October 2020, 21:03

The proposals are for mild hybrid systems to be introduced to Rally2 cars from 2023. I’m sure that could be brought forward a year without too much trouble.

Manufacturers are not interested in mild hybrid as the top class.

AnttiL

31st October 2020, 21:22

Manufacturers are not interested in mild hybrid as the top class.

And the Rally2 models don’t have hybrid street versions

Francis44

1st November 2020, 07:30

And the Rally2 models don’t have hybrid street versions

AFAIK the Fiesta already has a hybrid version and the I20 will soon have one aswell.

The Fabia Im not sure about but that model has been left in a limbo by VAG group for some years now.

tommeke_B

1st November 2020, 09:07

I beg to disagree here, I would claim the difference between Rally1 and Rally2 cars doesn't make that much of a difference in a yearly budget of a WRC team. It's more dramatic for privateers.

A tyre, a liter of gasoline, a night at a hotel, a flight, monthly salary of an employee, headquarters, service park buildings, a day of testing - everything costs the same, no matter if it's WRC or R1 car.

Let's assume a season with Rally1 costs 100 money units for a manufacturer and the same season with Rally2 costs 75 money units. Do they invest the 75 in something they don't want/need to promote (ICE's, car models without hybrid), or 100 in something they do want to promote (hybrids, street models with hybrids)?

2 years ago an engineer at a works team told me the budget needed for developing a WRC car was roughly 7x the budget needed for an R5 car. It does make a huge difference in the yearly budget of WRC teams. R5-regulations have a lot of limitations (intended to limit costs), making all manufacturers use many parts that are already on existing cars. For WRC they need to develop nearly every part from scratch.

djip

1st November 2020, 09:28

2 years ago an engineer at a works team told me the budget needed for developing a WRC car was roughly 7x the budget needed for an R5 car. It does make a huge difference in the yearly budget of WRC teams. R5-regulations have a lot of limitations (intended to limit costs), making all manufacturers use many parts that are already on existing cars. For WRC they need to develop nearly every part from scratch.

Fair point. it also seem the technical barrier to entry for an R5 model is lower - meaning it does not require years of experience and a plethora of experienced engineers to design a competitive R5, just because technology involved is much simpler. This thread has been focusing on cost, but don't forget about "access easiness"

wyler

1st November 2020, 10:17

2 years ago an engineer at a works team told me the budget needed for developing a WRC car was roughly 7x the budget needed for an R5 car. It does make a huge difference in the yearly budget of WRC teams. R5-regulations have a lot of limitations (intended to limit costs), making all manufacturers use many parts that are already on existing cars. For WRC they need to develop nearly every part from scratch.

I'm still convinced that manus will use 7x budget to develop R5 anyway if they become top tier. They'll find some area in which use it to gain advantage on the competitors. Look at the test ban: they found a way to test anyway (paying for it). who has the money will use it anyway. This also apply to easy access, for sure will be easier for newcomer, but they will have experience gap to the regulars anyway.

Rally Power

1st November 2020, 10:35

Manufacturers are not interested in mild hybrid as the top class.

How can you be that sure? Mr. Wilson was pretty vocal against Rally1H costs, defending a Rally2 based solution, while Adamo asked Rally1H postponement in the same week Rally2 mild hybrids were announced; honestly, at this point it's quite hard to know what's going behind the curtain.

Rally Power

1st November 2020, 10:46

And the Rally2 models don’t have hybrid street versions

As Francis44 mentioned, the new i20 and the Fiesta already have mild hybrid versions; the system is becoming current in the industry and it won't take long for most B segment cars to have it.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/ford-fiesta-mild-hybrid-sale-%C2%A319860

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/hyundai/i20/109171/new-2020-hyundai-i20-arrives-with-hybrid-power

Mirek

1st November 2020, 11:07

How can you be that sure? Mr. Wilson was pretty vocal against Rally1H costs, defending a Rally2 based solution, while Adamo asked Rally1H postponement in the same week Rally2 mild hybrids were announced; honestly, at this point it's quite hard to know what's going behind the curtain.

Wilson does not represent manufacturers.

1st November 2020, 13:11

AFAIK the Fiesta already has a hybrid version and the I20 will soon have one aswell.

The Fabia Im not sure about but that model has been left in a limbo by VAG group for some years now.

There is a new Fabia coming next year and there is some speculation it may include a mild hybrid version (which is already in the Octavia)

AnttiL

1st November 2020, 13:50

There is a new Fabia coming next year and there is some speculation it may include a mild hybrid version (which is already in the Octavia)

But it will require a new Rally2 model being made.

1st November 2020, 13:58

But it will require a new Rally2 model being made.

I would be surprised if they don’t after the success of the current version.

SubaruNorway

1st November 2020, 14:38

Would that mean the nearly 1000? R5's out there won't be able to run in the top class in WRC from 2023 or will there be a handicap for the mild hybrid version?

AnttiL

1st November 2020, 14:56

Would that mean the nearly 1000? R5's out there won't be able to run in the top class in WRC from 2023 or will there be a handicap for the mild hybrid version?

Top class? You know something we don’t? ;)

SubaruNorway

1st November 2020, 15:06

Top class? You know something we don’t? ;)

It's WRC3 i think? Must be since they are always faster than WRC2?

AnttiL

2nd November 2020, 06:43

It's WRC3 i think? Must be since they are always faster than WRC2?

so these are the top classes in WRC? ;)

Anyway, seriously, your question is a good one. When new Rally2 cars will get a hybrid boost, will the old ones be eligible for competition, or will they just be slower than the hybrids? Or lighter and thus faster? More reliable? Remember that in the future it's possible that Rally3 cars are used anyway for WRC3.

Humber

3rd November 2020, 06:33

Paddon unveiling electric Kona rally car tomorrow NZ time (Wednesday 4th November) . Appears young South Island driver Pettigrew could be entrusted with the demonstration run later this month.(name on side window)

Car unveiled.
Paddon considering hydrogen for the next car. Obviously the big batteries make full electric a heavy car.

AnttiL

4th November 2020, 05:25

Gerard Quinn comments:

https://twitter.com/WRCgerardquinn/status/1323774115044593666

This is where 2022 #WRC regulations should have headed with technology more relevant in subsequent years rather than hybrid that is today's technology. Great to see this development pushing boundaries, creating a workable proof point rather than hype and environmental lip service

Some details on the car

https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/evs/123299428/hyundai-and-hayden-paddon-reveal-allelectric-rally-machine

drive

4th November 2020, 10:46

Future is quiet?
https://www.facebook.com/paddonrallysport/videos/690417595183994/

Fast Eddie WRC

4th November 2020, 11:29

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/153276/rallying-risks-being-left-behind-without-green-push

djip

4th November 2020, 12:12

Gerard Quinn comments:

https://twitter.com/WRCgerardquinn/status/1323774115044593666

This is not my cup of tea and i sorelely miss the "good old days" of night rallying, 5 days across the country event and loud and roaring open exhausts. But this is 2020, not 1970 anymore ...

It may be a do or die time for rallying, and i buy the argument that you better be ahead of your time rather than running behind (and being eventuall left dead by the roadside). When you see the success and media suport of extreme E, which is almost a joke (to Rallying standards), it let you wonder if the rallying community is not totally missing the target. Wy not going with the current cars for a couple of years (or more) and then around 2023/2024, switch to full electric ?
I understad all the arguments about logistics, road sections, car weight, etc .. but not only is the technology moving fast, but at the same times rallyes are becoming shorter and shorter, both in terms of SS distance and road section (the hatred "leaf format..."). There may be a way to make it work...
Just throwing an indea (Antill, Mirek, don't kill me !), whazt do you guys think ?

Mirek

4th November 2020, 12:16

Gerard Quinn comments:

https://twitter.com/WRCgerardquinn/status/1323774115044593666

Some details on the car

https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/evs/123299428/hyundai-and-hayden-paddon-reveal-allelectric-rally-machine

My three cents

1) Actual electric sports or race cars have extremely short range when pushed to the maximum. Forget about road range of stock cars, that's completely different scale of power drained from the batteries. There is no info about battery capacity but considering the vehicle weight I am pretty sure it can not do a typical WRC loop, possibly not even one half.

2) 1400 kg heavy car has to be way more powerful than R5 cars to be reasonably faster which gets us into a vicious circle. The bigger power requires bigger batteries and the weight grows. IMHO it will be very difficult if not impossible to have full electric cars faster than R5 cars over the typical WRC stage and liaisons distance.

3) One thing is to be faster the other is to appear faster for the audience. That is very difficult to solve because the electric cars simply lack the wow efect.

AnttiL

4th November 2020, 12:22

Wy not going with the current cars for a couple of years (or more) and then around 2023/2024, switch to full electric ?
I understad all the arguments about logistics, road sections, car weight, etc .. but not only is the technology moving fast, but at the same times rallyes are becoming shorter and shorter, both in terms of SS distance and road section (the hatred "leaf format..."). There may be a way to make it work...
Just throwing an indea (Antill, Mirek, don't kill me !), whazt do you guys think ?

Well, I think it's too early to go electric. We just got the first prototype introduced today. A lot of issues still to be solved with electric cars in rallying in terms of range and safety. I'm sure Paddon's team is working on them as we speak. Before making it the main class, make it first a sub class, with maybe a shorter route.

Sulland

4th November 2020, 12:38

My three cents

1) Actual electric sports or race cars have extremely short range when pushed to the maximum. Forget about road range of stock cars, that's completely different scale of power drained from the batteries. There is no info about battery capacity but considering the vehicle weight I am pretty sure it can not do a typical WRC loop, possibly not even one half.

The only way a e-rallycar could work on todays battery tech is with a battery switch system in place. Either by brand or common for all. For a common system to work, thay all have to agree on battery shape, and that will not happen I guess.
As said before, the only "off track" motorsport that electric cars could work is Rallycross, and hyperquick charging ala Porsche;
Up to 270 kW using its 800-volt architecture to achieve a range of up to 100 km (WLTP) in 5 minutes under optimum conditions.

Mirek

4th November 2020, 12:49

The only way a e-rallycar could work on todays battery tech is with a battery switch system in place. Either by brand or common for all. For a common system to work, thay all have to agree on battery shape, and that will not happen I guess.
As said before, the only "off track" motorsport that electric cars could work is Rallycross, and hyperquick charging ala Porsche;
Up to 270 kW using its 800-volt architecture to achieve a range of up to 100 km (WLTP) in 5 minutes under optimum conditions.

100 km WLTP is around 5-10 km of race regime...

270 kW charger is nice thing on paper. Now imagine you need to charge dozens of batteries at the same time at the same place. Would you build a power plant in the service park or how are you going to do that?

Fast Eddie WRC

4th November 2020, 13:08

Gerard Quinn comments:

https://twitter.com/WRCgerardquinn/status/1323774115044593666

Hayden Paddon @HaydenPaddon

Couldn’t agree more. As much as we all love the current cars they are not sustainable commercially. The sport is driven by manufacturers - without them there is no WRC. It’s pretty clear what path manufacturers are taking, and they should all be using WRC/Motorsport as a test bed.

Tanelv

4th November 2020, 13:38

100 km WLTP is around 5-10 km of race regime...

270 kW charger is nice thing on paper. Now imagine you need to charge dozens of batteries at the same time at the same place. Would you build a power plant in the service park or how are you going to do that?
Porsche already has a solution for this, a trailer with 2.1 MWh battery pack that can charge 10 cars simultaneously with full power (350 kW). This could be used even at stage ends for example.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6lmTJiNTJc&t=1s&ab_channel=Bj%C3%B8rnNyland
https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/2020/company/porsche-high-power-charging-trucks-mobile-power-sources-22285.html

er88

4th November 2020, 13:41

Future is quiet?
https://www.facebook.com/paddonrallysport/videos/690417595183994/Jesus. The state of that...., my washing machine is louder. I wouldn't waste the time and money to venture out in the stages to watch something like that....., surely there could be ways to add some "noise"?

Rally Power

4th November 2020, 13:50

It’s incredible how this full EV’s BS is rising, in motorsport and on daily life; no one can be sure of the mid and long time effects of BEV’s use, considering full life emissions cycle (from factory to junkyard), recycling issues or grid expansion costs. Once this is mainly a politically driven process, I bet in 10 years we’ll be facing even higher CO2 emissions, plus huge battery pollution and electricity prices rising througt the roof.

On this electric Kona effect in Rally, let’s please not take it too seriously; Paddon is basically promoting his proto without knowing that it can work on real rally conditions, unless we turn the sport into a joke (with Mickey Mouse stages and endless service breaks for battery swap or recharge).

Hybrids are the future for top motorsport series, like F1, WEC, Imsa and even Nascar (from ’22) are showing; let’s not destroy Rally just for trying to be ahead of time.

Mirek

4th November 2020, 14:06

Porsche already has a solution for this, a trailer with 2.1 MWh battery pack that can charge 10 cars simultaneously with full power (350 kW). This could be used even at stage ends for example.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6lmTJiNTJc&t=1s&ab_channel=Bj%C3%B8rnNyland
https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/2020/company/porsche-high-power-charging-trucks-mobile-power-sources-22285.html

Some math for an overall perception of the problem. Please don't kill me for using very rough estimates. If there are better numbers, I will happily adjust the results.

If we have 10 WRC cars doing 350 km of stages at average power consumption 150 kW (no idea how it would be in reality) and 1000 km of liaison at average 30 kW, doing some 100 km/h average on stage and 50 km/h average on liaison, and if we consider to have 20% unused battery in reserve, we get roughly 1400 kWh per car. That means you need 7 of these trucks for the ten cars per WRC event.

Let's add for example 150 km stage length for PET and shakedown and you get to 9 of these charger trucks needed, i.e. nearly one per each car.

Is that feasible to have? I don't know to be honest.

Tanelv

4th November 2020, 14:45

Some math for an overall perception of the problem. Please don't kill me for using very rough estimates. If there are better numbers, I will happily adjust the results.

If we have 10 WRC cars doing 350 km of stages at average power consumption 150 kW (no idea how it would be in reality) and 1000 km of liaison at average 30 kW, doing some 100 km/h average on stage and 50 km/h average on liaison, and if we consider to have 20% unused battery in reserve, we get roughly 1400 kWh per car. That means you need 7 of these trucks for the ten cars per WRC event.

Let's add for example 150 km stage legth for PET and shakedown and you get to 9 of these charger trucks needed, i.e. nearly one per each car.

Is that feasible to have? I don't know to be honest.
Thank you for bringing the example, I do not know the exact numbers eithers so I think they are roughly OK. I would think the 150 kW is quite a safe bet, it should not be much more. For Porsche Taycan I found consumption numbers 100-130 kWh/100 km on track. An average Taycan has max power output of 400 kW (300-560 kW depending on model). Current WRC cars should be around 280 kW I think? What is the average power used in a stage of todays WRC car? An EV could also use regenerative braking to save energy used for accelerating so the average power can be expected to be a bit lower than that of the current cars.

Regarding the number of trucks I think you forgot that they can be recharged. If they are not used they should be "refilled" which can be definitely during night breaks so you can divide the numbers by three at least. Usually WRC events are based in populated areas where plenty of electricity is available.

I agree also that there are challenges but from an engineering point of view the new era of electric cars seems very interesting. Current combustion engines have not much room for improvement, they are already very nearly as good as they can get. Of course there is nothing wrong if people want to see proven things and things they are used to. I would personally be ok with the WRC rules staying as they are for the next 10 years for the sake of old fans joy, but I would love to see a new series with new technology as well, be it a side series if needed. With that Porsche battery truck example I also wanted to point out that for every problem there is a solution.

Mirek

4th November 2020, 15:01

Stock EV power consumption is limited by battery thermal management (I dare to say of all on the market). They are not designed to give the maximum power output for longer than single minutes, therefore it's tricky to take the ratio between peak and average power consumption from them.

Yes, the trucks can be recharged but the organizers need to secure enough power in the service park for that. To charge three trucks in 8 hours brake you need roughly 800 kW effective input (on top of all the usual WRC circus) which has to be secured by the organizers somehow (both in physical presence of such lines and paperwork). To be honest I have no idea how much problematic that would be for the organizers.

Maybe PLuto has an idea what is the typical power consumption of Barum rally service park.

cali

4th November 2020, 17:06

Morte66

4th November 2020, 17:53

100 km WLTP is around 5-10 km of race regime...

270 kW charger is nice thing on paper. Now imagine you need to charge dozens of batteries at the same time at the same place. Would you build a power plant in the service park or how are you going to do that?

I love the idea of a great big marine diesel-electric set from a submarine, sat round the back of the service park behind some crates, to recharge the EVs.

Fast Eddie WRC

4th November 2020, 22:28

Jesus. The state of that...., my washing machine is louder. I wouldn't waste the time and money to venture out in the stages to watch something like that....., surely there could be ways to add some "noise"?

Indeed. He said it was easily done so why is it not on the car now ?

A reminder from today of the importance of noise to the spectacle of rallying:

https://youtu.be/Tl8EjxwImB8

5th November 2020, 04:50

Future is quiet?
https://www.facebook.com/paddonrallysport/videos/690417595183994/

Maybe people who dismiss R5s on the basis of sound would like to have a rethink.

Mirek

5th November 2020, 06:45

Maybe people who dismiss R5s on the basis of sound would like to have a rethink.

EV sounding terribly don't make the R5 sound great...

EstWRC

5th November 2020, 11:30

https://dirtfish.com/rally/tanak-wants-to-see-faster-decisions-from-the-fia/

Mattons answer is just priceless...

Fast Eddie WRC

5th November 2020, 11:36

Toyota managed pretty well with getting their brand new Yaris WRC designed, built & tested ready for Monte 2017...

https://progressivel1-a.akamaihd.net/wrc/podcast/WRC_Backstories_EP7.mp3

Mirek

5th November 2020, 16:41

https://dirtfish.com/rally/tanak-wants-to-see-faster-decisions-from-the-fia/

Mattons answer is just priceless...

This makes me sad (also because I worked in automotive for ten years and this is a common management approach in there). Yes, the engineers mostly can do their job in shorter time than they want BUT they are human. They need some private life and some rest as well. This is the best way to make them leave soon for some less stressful job. I know that motorsport work is stressful from its very principle but there is no need to add extra stress just because someone can not decide in time.

djip

5th November 2020, 18:55

This makes me sad (also because I worked in automotive for ten years and this is a common management approach in there). Yes, the engineers mostly can do their job in shorter time than they want BUT they are human. They need some private life and some rest as well. This is the best way to make them leave soon for some less stressful job. I know that motorsport work is stressful from its very principle but there is no need to add extra stress just because someone can not decide in time.

+1
and don't forget that Matton, who keeps claiming that he knows what he is talking of as the former Citroen Racing manager (i) Got the team from top dog to bottom feeder (then extinction) (ii) a team that took 2+ years to develop / launch the C3 while running only a few events (and the car was an utter failure out of the box)
i don't know what credibility can he get from that track record to make such assumptions ...

5th November 2020, 19:28

EV sounding terribly don't make the R5 sound great...

No, but one day in the not too distant future we may appreciate them more.

dimviii

5th November 2020, 20:21

Paddons kona incar sound
https://twitter.com/HaydenPaddon/status/1324442635394719744

TypeR

5th November 2020, 20:32

Paddons kona incar sound
https://twitter.com/HaydenPaddon/status/1324442635394719744
😝🤑

er88

5th November 2020, 21:31

Paddons kona incar sound
https://twitter.com/HaydenPaddon/status/1324442635394719744Dear o dear. Hopefully that noise generator saves this venture of his.

Mirek

6th November 2020, 16:13

Dear o dear. Hopefully that noise generator saves this venture of his.

I vote for this sound!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91CDXfNmbkU

tommeke_B

6th November 2020, 17:07

That would be perfect, they should also add the game over sound from Super Mario right after a crash impact.

wyler

6th November 2020, 17:09

I vote for this sound!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91CDXfNmbkU

That's formula E, right? :D

denkimi

6th November 2020, 18:30

Mirek

6th November 2020, 19:11

I don't see why anyone would want to use a battery truck to charge battery cars. It doesn't have to be green, they just want to be able to tell people that its green.

500kw generators are commercially available on trucks. If they put one on every stage start and allow a short fast recharge, they could start each stage with a full battery.

Yeah, the best idea to promote EV is to charge the WRC from a diesel generator standing in the service park. Great idea... No, it isn't.

SubaruNorway

6th November 2020, 19:14

Yeah, the best idea to promote EV is to charge the WRC from a diesel generator standing in the service park. Great idea... No, it isn't.

Formula E uses glycerine generators

Mirek

6th November 2020, 19:25

Formula E uses glycerine generators

Which is nothing else than diesel generator running on glycerine, which is a by-product of bio-diesel production.

Tarmop

6th November 2020, 20:17

Yep, people won`t notice big, noisy, smelly genes representing their new "green and go where you want, when you want convinient" transportation.

NickRally

6th November 2020, 20:26

I vote for this sound!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91CDXfNmbkU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDafMzo4HO8&t=0m47s

denkimi

8th November 2020, 10:25

Yeah, the best idea to promote EV is to charge the WRC from a diesel generator standing in the service park. Great idea... No, it isn't.
what difference does it makes it that electricity is generated by a diesel generator of by a coal of gas plant a few kilometers away?

it's all about PR and image. noboby cares about the reality. no sport that travels the world will ever be green, but the manufacturers just want to be able to claim otherwise.
as long as the manufacturers can tell people in their marketing that they are being "green", all the rest doesn't really matter anymore.

tommeke_B

8th November 2020, 11:04

Maybe it doesn't match your view, but people do care about the reality. The numbers will have to match their story, at least to some extent. No large company (including car manufacturers) wants to have the reputation of doing "greenwashing". Once you have that label, the whole marketing campaign is useless.

Rally Power

8th November 2020, 11:27

Fast Eddie WRC

8th November 2020, 12:44

AnttiL

8th November 2020, 14:24

Interesting tweet

@bp_rally
With all the talk about the WRC engine being outdated and that we need electric/hybrid. What power unit is in the brand new Hyundai i20N? What about the GR Yaris? Both petrol turbo. What cars is rallying used to market? The eco commuters? Or the back lane hooligans?

It's quite naive to think the manufacturers are putting in millions to promote only the "homologation specials". Again, petrolhead logic.

Jarek Z

8th November 2020, 18:03

R5s sound really terrible... When I went to Rally Argentina I found the Maxi Rally cars to be far more exciting to watch because of the sound.

Are they really so terrible?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qROTiK8pe-c

djip

8th November 2020, 21:08

Besides power supplier tender, Matton confirmed to the press that Rally1H it’s going ahead, no matter how many manus are in…

https://www.revistascratch.com/wrc/noticia/el-compromiso-con-los-rally1-se-definira-en-noviembre-aunque-sea-con-dos-fabricantes-58880

Fingers crossed for Hyundai to keep their entry, as with only two manus the WRC seems to be doomed.

Couldn't be any more stubborn (or proud, or stupid, make your choice). As usual the people in power believe they know better than anyone and refuse to admit that what was once their bright idea is no longer valid (not even their fault here). Same everywhere, from politics, to companies, to sport.

I hate to say so, but I almost wish both Huyndai and MSport bail out, so that the harsh reality would have to bring them down. Having said this, though, I wish ... not - or the next few years are going to be pretty boring ...

Mirek

8th November 2020, 21:11

what difference does it makes it that electricity is generated by a diesel generator of by a coal of gas plant a few kilometers away?

it's all about PR and image. noboby cares about the reality. no sport that travels the world will ever be green, but the manufacturers just want to be able to claim otherwise.
as long as the manufacturers can tell people in their marketing that they are being "green", all the rest doesn't really matter anymore.

Telling people directly that they are dumb is something which worked perfectly in the past, right? Do you understand that even a minority which gets offended by that can do a lot of noise over social networks etc. and make your effort turning against you? If marketing for EV shall ever work, it must be at least somewhat credible, otherwise you don't need to bother and spend any money because it won't work anyway.

Let me give you an example. The majority of people here is against EV. Three of four guys in whatever pub, you get in, will tell you plenty of reasons why it's bullshit. They happily use every fail used to promote EV and they are very happy when they find more ammunition for their guns - such as last year's pitiful show of the so-called green rally from Rally Bohemia 2019. The way how Audi pressed organizers to change the route because their cars would not be able to get into the finish got into every motoring and motorsport website and the fact that due to that the EVs caused major delay of the main competitive field on the SSS and got into the scheduled national TV stream instead of the main competition was just a cherry on the cake. Basically everybody who watched that and his dog hates them now. And it was discussed to death all over the internet because there is more than enough people waiting for such fails to spread them around.

Think about it again. Your statement is a direct proof that this would not work in the very community which follows this sport because everyone here would take it as a sharade for retards. But who are those retards? People not following the sport? But that sport itself is the marketing and its audience is the target group of that marketing. Do you understand now that this would never work?

Fast Eddie WRC

9th November 2020, 13:10

It's quite naive to think the manufacturers are putting in millions to promote only the "homologation specials". Again, petrolhead logic.

Raising the profile of the brand is the main aim of WRC participation. But sticking with petrol turbos for the next gen i20(N) & Yaris (GR) while insisting they are going 'green' in WRC is strange logic.

If both of these models were hybrid then they would probably promote their brands 'green credentials' more than hybrid WRC's.

steve.mandzij

9th November 2020, 14:46

Are they really so terrible?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qROTiK8pe-cYeah, they are on the stage. The Fabia in particular makes a billion sounds and not one of them is a sounds like a nice engine or exhaust sound to me.

The C3 sounds quite nice though, I must say.

9th November 2020, 15:33

Yeah, they are on the stage. The Fabia in particular makes a billion sounds and not one of them is a sounds like a nice engine or exhaust sound to me.

The C3 sounds quite nice though, I must say.

I kind of have the opposite view, the Citroen sounds like an old two stroke motorboat engine under braking, Fabia to me sounds quite good now at full pelt:

https://twitter.com/OliverSolberg01/status/1314597785510064128?s=20

All R5s to me sound better than old GrpN4 cars or some 2L WRCs, but of course not as good as the current World Rally Cars.

AnttiL

9th November 2020, 16:13

Raising the profile of the brand is the main aim of WRC participation. But sticking with petrol turbos for the next gen i20(N) & Yaris (GR) while insisting they are going 'green' in WRC is strange logic.

If both of these models were hybrid then they would probably promote their brands 'green credentials' more than hybrid WRC's.

These cars are just "homologation specials" of the current WRC cars which don't yet have any hybrid elements to them. We don't even know if i20 and Yaris will be used in the 2022 regulations, since larger model bodyshells could be used, Hyundai could want to promote the Kona as a hybrid model etc.

EDIT: not current WRC cars but what would have been the WRC cars in 2021

Francis44

9th November 2020, 20:06

These cars are just "homologation specials" of the current WRC cars which don't yet have any hybrid elements to them. We don't even know if i20 and Yaris will be used in the 2022 regulations, since larger model bodyshells could be used, Hyundai could want to promote the Kona as a hybrid model etc.

JESUS CHRIST!!!! Again, the Yaris already has a hybrid version for several years and the I20 will have one next year.

AnttiL

10th November 2020, 05:02

Calm down :) Of course I know there's Yaris hybrids, but it's still not known whether they choose to go rallying in 2022 with that or some other model, since it can be chosen now more freely.

When they started designing the Yaris GR, the 2022 rules were still up in the air. In fact, they were designing things for that car with specifically the now-cancelled 2021 WRC car homologation in mind, not the 2022 car. We could even see all Yaris GR's being sold out before the 2022 WRC cars are out.

Fast Eddie WRC

10th November 2020, 13:30

These cars are just "homologation specials" of the current WRC .

Well, the i20N is just a hot version of the new i20, nothing to do with the WRC.

If Toyota and Hyundai want to promote hybrid (performance) cars then their GR & N brands should be doing so more than their WRC entry. But for their newest performance models they are sticking with petrol. This does nothing this promote hybrid to 'petrol-heads' or encourage them to switch...

pantealex

10th November 2020, 14:00

These cars are just "homologation specials" of the current WRC cars

NO

Current WRC are based on previous generations i20 and Yaris.

Both Yaris GR-4 and i20N are current generation cars, so totally different body shape than WRC-spec.

AnttiL

10th November 2020, 14:45

NO

Current WRC are based on previous generations i20 and Yaris.

Both Yaris GR-4 and i20N are current generation cars, so totally different body shape than WRC-spec.

Yes, but only because the 2021 Yaris GR WRC car was scrapped. As for Hyundai, there were rumors of them making a facelifted WRC car as well...

wyler

10th November 2020, 16:01

As for Hyundai, there were rumors of them making a facelifted WRC car as well...

And the new rally2, latest car unveiled from wrc manu

T16

18th November 2020, 11:44

Good news!!

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/all-three-wrc-manufacturers-will-remain-for-2022/

er88

18th November 2020, 15:19

Yep, so much for Dirtfish's R5/R5+ push ;)

Rally Power

18th November 2020, 17:32

Good news!!

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/all-three-wrc-manufacturers-will-remain-for-2022/

That's a relief. Hope Todt can convince a few more manus to join in!

T16

18th November 2020, 21:16

That's a relief. Hope Todt can convince a few more manus to join in!

Really hope someone can. Even another one would feel incredible at the moment.
The fact they’ve seemingly locked in the current three is actually incredibly good, considering, so I think it will basically push the sport into its next generation of regs and onwards hopefully.
Looked rocky for a while.
Surprised it’s seemingly worked out, but extremely happy.

AnttiL

19th November 2020, 07:03

Yeah, but remember it's still just Dirffish rumors and we've even seen teams pull out when they are "commited" (remember VW 2016 or Citroen 2019). All thumbs must still be kept upwards.

T16

19th November 2020, 08:23

Yeah, but remember it's still just Dirffish rumors and we've even seen teams pull out when they are "commited" (remember VW 2016 or Citroen 2019). All thumbs must still be kept upwards.

Not just rumours really. They wouldn’t have written the article unless they had signed. They wouldn’t have signed if they weren’t going to be there.
It’s happening, against a lot of odds. Fantastic result.

20th November 2020, 19:22

Mirek

20th November 2020, 20:30

UK government has just confirmed a ban on the sale of new diesel/petrol only cars from 2030. Plug in hybrids given until 2035. I think that is a sensible compromise, it’s a good way to transition to full electric whilst gradually getting the infrastructure in place for charging and waiting for electric car costs to reduce and range to improve further.

You can also see it from the point that what will come in ten years won't be likely the problem of the current people in charge. It can be postponed, changed, canceled, speed-up or whatever. A lot will be different in ten years than today and a lot will happen in between. In a way it's easy to plan something which will come into effect in ten years because such decision doesn't hurt now.

20th November 2020, 20:52

Rally Power

21st November 2020, 17:08

You can also see it from the point that what will come in ten years won't be likely the problem of the current people in charge. It can be postponed, changed, canceled, speed-up or whatever. A lot will be different in ten years than today and a lot will happen in between. In a way it's easy to plan something which will come into effect in ten years because such decision doesn't hurt now.

Spot on. Besides demagogic, this political fixation on full EVs it's irresponsible as it makes harder to look for other alernatives, like the renewable synthetic fuels (RSF). Bosch, one of the leading partners in carbon neutral RSF, is struggling to get support for their development. https://www.bosch.com/stories/denners-view-synthetic-fuels-and-electromobility/

Btw, F1 will use RSF in their next hybrid engines generation. https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-hybrid-engines-sustainble-fuels/4907782/