2019 Japanese GP - Suzuka

[Nitrodaze]

https://www.motortrader.com.my/news/wp-content/uploads/images/2017/10/Suzuka-1.jpg

We head to the exotic track of Suzuka in Japan ahead of a controversial race in Sochi Russia. A race that had Ferrari as favorite to win but was won in a Mercedes one-two. Ferrari faltered and the first sign of engine reliability issues creeps in, as Vettels Ferrari was halted due to MG-UK failure. The possibility of winning the championship titles; Constructors and Drivers, now looks slim to impossible for Ferrari. It is kind of an open run to the finish for Mercedes with possibility that they may wrap it up within the next two races.

I like to remember Bianchi, the promising rookie that died at this track a few years ago.

For me, Suzuka is one of the highlights of the F1 calendar. The Japanese F1 fans celebrate F1 coming to their country like literally nowhere else on the planet. You have the partisan army of Ferrari fans that make the Italian GP a memorable event. Then there is the rancorous crowd of British fans that make the Silverstone GP a very memorable occasion. The Japanese fans take things to a another level with beautiful well crafted homemade regalia fashioned to highlight aspects of the teams they support.

https://somatraveler.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/img_4783.jpg

Take the pic above for instance that depicts a Ninja gear with Ferrari memorabilia and horse head for hat. What exquisite workmanship. I love the Japanese GP for these colourful attires and diverse support which is unlike Monza for instance.

The Race this weekend is under threat as Typhoone Hagibis swirls into town. Suzuka has been a wet race for the last few years now, and this weekend is looking like yet another. It is unclear if the race would go ahead or if it would be moved to another venue.

https://racing-elite.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/17980/hagibis-becomes-trim-typhoon-f1-race-in-suzuki-increasingly-threatened-600x280.jpg

This venue has been a Mercedes track since the hybrid era commenced, but the characteristics of this track favors the current Ferrari more than it may Mercedes this season. Like the saga of Alonso vs Hamilton at Mclaren in 2007, we are graced with a similar rivalry in Vettel vs Leclerc. The four times world champion finds himself in a battle of will with the young F2, F3 and F4 champion Charles Leclerc, making his debut in Ferrari colours this season.

Which of these two would come on top. At the beginning of the year, a majority of members of this forum tipped Leclerc to beat Vettel this season and it has gone that way so far. The season is not over, so l ask can Vettel turn his season around and regain the lost ground to Leclerc. A win by Vettel on this track would go a long way to re-establishing his status within the team. Another Leclerc win would be very damaging for the four times world champion.

This being an engine home race for Redbull, they would be looking to have a great race this weekend. A podium finish would go down well for Honda and the Japanese fans. Can Verstapenn mount an upset this weekend? Can the Redbull get in the thick of the Ferrari/Mercedes tussle?

The red baron Michael Schumacher is the most successful driver to race this track with six wins. Mclaren is the most successful team to win this race with nine wines. On the current grid, Lewis Hamilton is the most successful driver to race this track with five wins. Sebastien Vettel is the only other driver on the current grid to have won this race with four wins.

Hamilton is the last winner of this race and Vettel holds the fastest race lap record at 1:32:318. Pole was taken with a time of 1:27:760 by Lewis Hamilton in 2018.

This race is 53 laps over 5.8km. A full race is 307Km. This is a tricky track that really test the drivers and the car with its fast straight through a stretched out tangential ESS curve which then takes the drivers through a series of short curves that flow from one into another in the second half of the track which also cuts across the first half in a figure if eight layout. It is an exciting track to drive and great to watch in the wet.

https://www.suzukacircuit.jp/motorsports_s/library/f1/2018/img/2018f1_01.jpg

Who is your money on to win this iconic race? Mercedes or Ferrari? Leclerc, Vettel, Hamilton, Bottas or Verstapenn?

Now check out these adorable Japanese grid girls to get you in the mood for the weekend of racing.

https://cdn-1.motorsport.com/images/mgl/6lDkaaL6/s8/mefim-suzuka-8-hours-2016-lovely-grid-girls.jpg

[Tazio]

Here is a live webcam from the Suzuka circuit "Grand Prix Square"

http://webcam.wni.co.jp/MTK08875/loop.html

It's looking like Saturday will be a wash out, with quali, and race held on Sunday..... or maybe not!


F1 organisers are waiting to see whether the storm continues on its current track before deciding whether to cancel qualifying on Saturday.That decision is expected to come before the end of Friday and will primarily be down to Japanese local authorities, whose responsibility it is to decide whether to close the circuit and advise people to stay indoors to reduce the risk to life from the storm.
If authorities do not take that action, F1 will almost certainly try to run Saturday's programme, which has final practice at 12:00 local time (04:00 BST) and qualifying at 15:00 (07:00 BST).

[Tazio]

Saturday is officially cancelled!

[Big Ben]

... On the current grid, Lewis Hamilton is the most successful driver to race this track with five wins. Sebastien Vettel is the only other driver on the current grid to have won this race with four wins...



Kimi won too, in 2005. It was quite an entertaining race.

[airshifter]

Kimi won too, in 2005. It was quite an entertaining race.

And for anyone that wants to watch it , it's streaming right now on the Formula 1 YouTube channel.

8am US eastern time.

https://youtu.be/Omtp_x00DNw

[Tazio]

And for anyone that wants to watch it , it's streaming right now on the Formula 1 YouTube channel.

8am US eastern time.

https://youtu.be/Omtp_x00DNw
Sweet! :dork:

[zako85]

What happen?

[Tazio]

Evening boyz! :wave: :wave: Quali! :angel:

[Tazio]

Red flag, Kubica bins it on a warm up lap, just as he was on the pit straight getting up to speed to start a hot lap!

[Tazio]

Smokin' lap by Vettel!

[Tazio]

The Scuds get it done!:dork:

[Tazio]

Max McSpun!

[Tazio]

Great start by the Renault!

[truefan72]

Hmm FIArrari in full effect.
No penalty for vettel jump start
No investigation for leclerc on max (actually now that he is out of contention they are re-investigating it. Pathetic)
No black flag for leclerc spewing and endangering drivers
With his damaged wing. Pieces flying into hamiltons helmet.!!!
This is madness. Such bias and a very dangerous precedent. What the bloody hell does it take for a ferrari to be penalised???

[Tazio]

Sweet pass by McLerc!

[truefan72]

Also Albon should have been penalized for his contact with norris. Smh the stewards are useless. Hard driving yes. Barging an opponent off the track and destroying his race isn't apropo

[Tazio]

Also Albon should have been penalized for his contact with norris. Smh the stewards are useless. Hard driving yes. Barging an opponent off the track and destroying his race isn't apropoYup, Albon, clouted Norris!

[Tazio]

That is it for Max!

[Tazio]

Bottas is smoking the field!

[truefan72]

Coward stewards. Max and leclerc incident to be investigated after the race. Why????

[truefan72]

Once again. Dubious strategy by mercedes with hamilton. Leave him out to lose time then trll him the 1 stop isn't going to work. Pathetic

[truefan72]

It is really shambolic to see how the merc strategy fails time and time again. Even with enough data on tire deg from bottas car. They couldn't adjust and bring in hamilton on the next lap to keep him close to bottas and vettel. Or leave him on a 1 stopper with mediums that looked to last. This is comical ineptitude of the highest order

[truefan72]

Mercedes stratrgy is bonkers. There is no need to pit now. And if the team tells him to pit i would ignore it. Plus they are also screwing bottas here. Well done mercedes smh

[truefan72]

Wtf are mercedes are doing?

[truefan72]

Seems to me like they are trying to orchestrate the result. I absolutely would not have pitted. Hamilton would have cleared the lapped cars and bottas would have had to pass them and pass hamilton in the last few laps. This is ridiculous and shambolic on every level. There was no need to pit again. Seems to me they just want to give bottas the win. They would have finshed 1-2 if hamilton stayed out. I'm baffled

[truefan72]

This was a stupid race. Tbh
Ridiculous steward decisions and laughable mercedes strategy. They had a solid 1-2 and managed to botch it.
Bottas could have passed hamilton at the end and mercs would still be 1-2. But they inexplicably botch this thing.
The sky f1 commentary is equally as inept. Dont know what karun is going on about. Its all ridiculous

[airshifter]

Strange race all around. I didn't watch qually but was shocked to see that the Ferrari cars managed a 1-2.

Seb screws himself at the start and is lucky to remain where he did. V 2.0 got a great start and reaped the benefit of both Ferrari's getting off the line slow. I'm not at all shocked about no investigation for Seb, as it's happened before, he was stopped again, and within the box still.

Leclerc and Max.... I can't grasp why they first said no investigation, but once again the precedent set in Canada is a 5 second penalty, even though in that situation Lewis wisely backed out of it to avoid contact. I further don't understand why Leclerc ignored the team on pitting, but then again personally I think with that damage the FIA should have thrown the orange and black flag and ordered him in the next lap. Application of the 10 second penalty seemed rather harsh when they didn't throw the flag, but Charles screwed himself on that one either way.

I thought Norris and Albon was just.... Norris tried to close the door way too late and had to have seen Albon at that point.


As for strategy, I don't think Merc blew it, but I do think Ferrari blew it. Lewis was on the back foot from qually on, and narrowly avoided an incident with Sainz at the start. But he remained on the back foot in regards to pace and tire strategy, so the team did what they could IMO. Though Seb screwed up the start, he was fighting hard to keep Lewis behind and made it work.

In pursuit of the fast lap, Ferrari blew it by pitting Leclerc. They should have been smart enough to assume at least a 10 second penalty and worked that gap accordingly. As it turned out the penalty was even larger, and they didn't even get that fastest lap point anyway.


Some good on track action with all the strategy calls, and the midfield fights were interesting as well.

[airshifter]

Apparently Renault are under investigation following a protest by Racing Point.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.racing-point-lodge-suzuka-protest-against-rivals-renault.3j3DGgYhtM12HMBo49lHMa.html

[Nitrodaze]

Mercedes stratrgy is bonkers. There is no need to pit now. And if the team tells him to pit i would ignore it. Plus they are also screwing bottas here. Well done mercedes smh

The Hamilton strategy was crap, a Mercedes one-two was possible. But even so, Hamilton was able to score that extra point to help Mercedes clinch their sixth consecutive constructors championship. It spells out to Ferrari how important it is to focus on what matters and maximize on every opportunities that becomes available to them on race day. Ferrari would now need to move their thoughts to next year. They have a mighty car, and Mercedes would need to produce a special car next year to be able to challenge Ferrari through a full season.

[airshifter]

And now Perez is 9th!

https://www.racefans.net/2019/10/13/chequered-flag-error-means-race-distance-is-cut-and-perez-scores-points-despite-crashing/

[Nitrodaze]

Seems to me like they are trying to orchestrate the result. I absolutely would not have pitted. Hamilton would have cleared the lapped cars and bottas would have had to pass them and pass hamilton in the last few laps. This is ridiculous and shambolic on every level. There was no need to pit again. Seems to me they just want to give bottas the win. They would have finshed 1-2 if hamilton stayed out. I'm baffled

Hamilton had 30% deg on all tires with 10 laps to go. He could have gone to the end of the race but would have needed to defend like crazy from Bottas with fresher tyres at the closing laps of the race. I suppose, Mercedes saw that possibility and did not want to risk a fight between their drivers, with one eye on the constructors championship decided to manage the race by putting both drivers apart. It is the sort of racing that l tend to criticize as it robs us of a fight for the win. Especially since the constructors was in the bag even if they have to wait till the next race.

[Nitrodaze]

Also Albon should have been penalized for his contact with norris. Smh the stewards are useless. Hard driving yes. Barging an opponent off the track and destroying his race isn't apropo

It is the new rules that was introduced at Hockenhiem l think, which allows the defending driver to defend robustly at the expense of the attacking driver. Norris just got schooled by Albon who was himself schooled by Sainz a few races back on this new rules of racing.

It was interesting to hear Verstapenn complain of his experience of being in the receiving end of the type of racing that he has introduced into F1. He got a taste of his own medicine and did not like it one bit. What goes around comes around l say, he he.

But shunting people of the track can be just as risky and very costly if it goes wrong as Leclerc discovered today. I think he may have passed Sainz before the end of the race if they did not stop him for soft tyres for the fastest lap which he did not produce in the end. But Leclerc recovered very well.

[Nitrodaze]

Bottas was brilliant today, Albon showed why he deserves to keep that second seat at Redbull. What a great drive from Albon. Renault had a good day too. Sainz steals 6th place in the drivers championship from Gasly with Albon fast closing in. Mclaren stretches that constructors points lead to Renault to 34 points. The battle for fourth continues.

[Nitrodaze]

I have to say the sky commentary was one of the best l have experienced. Crofty was in fine form and now and then Kravits chipped in brilliantly with a gem or two to spice up the story of the moments. I enjoyed.

[zako85]

What a comedy of errors. But the worst was when Leclerc refused to go into pits to replace the wing saying something like "the car still feels good".

[The Black Knight]

What a comedy of errors. But the worst was when Leclerc refused to go into pits to replace the wing saying something like "the car still feels good".

Actually, I think this was ridiculous and that he should be banned for the rest of the season. Pieces of carbon fibre flying off his car could easily have hit Hamilton and killed him. Or even gone into the spectators and killed one of them. There’s no room for this kind of nonsense in F1 when it comes to what is very clearly a safety issue for drivers and spectators. That the stewards didn’t black flag him after he refused to come in is disgraceful. And what, he gets a measly 10seconds timed penalty? Pathetic! Send him home until Oz and guaranteed he won’t do it again. Safety first.

[Nitrodaze]

Actually, I think this was ridiculous and that he should be banned for the rest of the season. Pieces of carbon fibre flying off his car could easily have hit Hamilton and killed him. Or even gone into the spectators and killed one of them. There’s no room for this kind of nonsense in F1 when it comes to what is very clearly a safety issue for drivers and spectators. That the stewards didn’t black flag him after he refused to come in is disgraceful. And what, he gets a measly 10seconds timed penalty? Pathetic! Send him home until Oz and guaranteed he won’t do it again. Safety first.

Don't you miss Charlie Whiting now. I agree, the stewarding and new risky approach to racing is disconcerting to say the least. The dislodged front wing end plate literally took out Hamilton mirror. That kind of force could have been lethal if it had gone towards Hamilton's helmet like what happened to Massa. The mentality now is if nothing bad happened then let's not disrupt the racing. I think someone has to die first before they act.

I did not appreciate Leclerc's lack of sensitivity for other driver's or spectators safety.

Clearly Ferrari have a problem controlling their driver.

[The Black Knight]

Don't you miss Charlie Whiting now. I agree, the stewarding and new risky approach to racing is disconcerting to say the least. The dislodged front wing end plate literally took out Hamilton mirror. That kind of force could have been lethal if it had gone towards Hamilton's helmet like what happened to Massa. The mentality now is if nothing bad happened then let's not disrupt the racing. I think someone has to die first before they act.

I did not appreciate Leclerc's lack of sensitivity for other driver's of fan safety.

Clearly Ferrari have a problem controlling their driver.

Not especially. I very much doubt Charlie would have done different. The stewards have made a mockery of themselves- all their safety first calls with excessive safety car times and then they do this nonsense. It begs the question if it wasn't a Ferrari, if it were a Racing Point or Haas, I wonder how they would have handled the situation.

[Nitrodaze]

Not especially. I very much doubt Charlie would have done different. The stewards have made a mockery of themselves- all their safety first calls with excessive safety car times and then they do this nonsense. It begs the question if it wasn't a Ferrari, if it were a Racing Point or Haas, I wonder how they would have handled the situation.

Charlie would not support this sort of risky approach, that is for sure. Massi seem like a risk taker. It is all about the show for him. I think Liberty probably have him under their thumbs.

[truefan72]

Not especially. I very much doubt Charlie would have done different. The stewards have made a mockery of themselves- all their safety first calls with excessive safety car times and then they do this nonsense. It begs the question if it wasn't a Ferrari, if it were a Racing Point or Haas, I wonder how they would have handled the situation.

I know exactly what would have happened if it was a Haas, Racing point, mclaren, etc.
They would have been black flagged and the driver would have gotten a race ban.
TBH this all comes down to a deep Ferrari bias which i though had been finally stamped out.
The entire season, they keep getting away with stuff and this was just the culmination of such bias.
I do think whiting would have had the balls to black flag Ferrari, ban the driver for a race and issue a very steep fine to the Team in the range of $100k

What happened in suzuka was far more dangerous and potentially lethal than many other incident of recent and they get a 10s penalty?
then a measly 5s for the verstappen incident?

What was even worse for me was having to listen to the skyF1 team (especially Diresta) bend over backwards to minimize the entire incident and even recommend leclerc for driver of the race!!

[Duncan]

I went back and watched the onboard from Lewis for the first couple of laps, and it was pretty crazy, much more so than it looked like from the world feed. Charles' car was dropping bits of carbon fibre all over the place, and there was an active back and forth between Lewis and Bonno, with warnings about flying debris. One of the front elements on Lewis' car was broken off right after the initial collision. Going down the start/finish straight at the start of lap 2, Lewis moved out of the slipstream because it was just too dangerous; hard to see what was happening but there was a stream of sparks coming from the left side, and presumably some fragments of carbon. There was a message from Lewis that sounded like "this is dangerous as f***", but it was a bit indistinct.

Then the endplate finally came off going up the hill to 130R, and it was pretty scary; it just hit and sheared the wing mirror clean off. It didn't just damage it and it fell off later, just *bam* and it was gone. I couldn't even freeze frame it in the video replay.


The FIA might be taking a look at their procedures here. Apparently they "expected" Charles to come in at the end of lap 1, and when he didn't, asked what was going on. Ferrari said that he was coming in at the end of lap 2, but after the endplate came off they decided that was unnecessary, prompting the FIA to go back to them again and actually demand that he come in.

Really should have been an immediate meatball. After seeing the damage inflicted by the endplate, I'm fairly confident we'll see new procedures sooner rather than later.

[airshifter]

Really should have been an immediate meatball. After seeing the damage inflicted by the endplate, I'm fairly confident we'll see new procedures sooner rather than later.

Agreed on your entire post.

But personally I think the bolded is what resulted in the penalty that was given. Race control dropped the ball.
When it comes to safety matters they shouldn't play games. By not throwing the flag immediately they left an option to the driver and team.

[zako85]

Actually, I think this was ridiculous and that he should be banned for the rest of the season. Pieces of carbon fibre flying off his car could easily have hit Hamilton and killed him. Or even gone into the spectators and killed one of them. There’s no room for this kind of nonsense in F1 when it comes to what is very clearly a safety issue for drivers and spectators. That the stewards didn’t black flag him after he refused to come in is disgraceful. And what, he gets a measly 10seconds timed penalty? Pathetic! Send him home until Oz and guaranteed he won’t do it again. Safety first.

I completely agree. But what will it take for the stewards to act? Another dead or maimed driver? I hope it won't get that far.

[Nitrodaze]

How do ground effect differ from downforce generated from aerofoiled rear wings? Both generate downforce from the movement of the car forward. The faster the the car is travelling, the higher the downforce generated. They both lose downforce when the car decelerates. The effects of sudden elevation of the car from the ground may have different effect on the two systems. I suspect the aerofoiled rear wing would dampen the landing of the car such that it does not bounce along the track but lands and stick back to the tarmac and continues with little loss of grip and speed.

I doubt ground effect would have the same outcome. As the venturi effect would be lost when the car elevates off the ground. When it lands, l wonder if the venturi effect would immediately re-initialize. I suspect it would only re-initialize when the car regains stability and is level on the tarmac again. Hence, how the car would behave when it lands on the tarmac would be more turbulent than in the case od the aerofoiled rear wing. That said, l have not taken into account what role the smaller rear wing on the new car would play in this circumstances. There is some downforce generated by this new rear wing, hence the landing of the car would be more controlled and would serve to help re-engage the venturi effect and consequently re-establish some level of downforce on the car.

Just thinking out loud, people :-)

[Steve Boyd]

How do ground effect differ from downforce generated from aerofoiled rear wings? Both generate downforce from the movement of the car forward. The faster the the car is travelling, the higher the downforce generated. They both lose downforce when the car decelerates. The effects of sudden elevation of the car from the ground may have different effect on the two systems. I suspect the aerofoiled rear wing would dampen the landing of the car such that it does not bounce along the track but lands and stick back to the tarmac and continues with little loss of grip and speed.

I doubt ground effect would have the same outcome. As the venturi effect would be lost when the car elevates off the ground. When it lands, l wonder if the venturi effect would immediately re-initialize. I suspect it would only re-initialize when the car regains stability and is level on the tarmac again. Hence, how the car would behave when it lands on the tarmac would be more turbulent than in the case od the aerofoiled rear wing. That said, l have not taken into account what role the smaller rear wing on the new car would play in this circumstances. There is some downforce generated by this new rear wing, hence the landing of the car would be more controlled and would serve to help re-engage the venturi effect and consequently re-establish some level of downforce on the car.

Just thinking out loud, people :-)

Hmm - aerodynamics of cars in the air - shouldn't this be on the rally pages? :)

[airshifter]

How do ground effect differ from downforce generated from aerofoiled rear wings? Both generate downforce from the movement of the car forward. The faster the the car is travelling, the higher the downforce generated. They both lose downforce when the car decelerates. The effects of sudden elevation of the car from the ground may have different effect on the two systems. I suspect the aerofoiled rear wing would dampen the landing of the car such that it does not bounce along the track but lands and stick back to the tarmac and continues with little loss of grip and speed.

I doubt ground effect would have the same outcome. As the venturi effect would be lost when the car elevates off the ground. When it lands, l wonder if the venturi effect would immediately re-initialize. I suspect it would only re-initialize when the car regains stability and is level on the tarmac again. Hence, how the car would behave when it lands on the tarmac would be more turbulent than in the case od the aerofoiled rear wing. That said, l have not taken into account what role the smaller rear wing on the new car would play in this circumstances. There is some downforce generated by this new rear wing, hence the landing of the car would be more controlled and would serve to help re-engage the venturi effect and consequently re-establish some level of downforce on the car.

Just thinking out loud, people :-)

In F1, current downforce has a lot to do with the flow over the front of the car. Since this flow is grossly disturbed when a car lifts off the ground, all aero goes to crap regardless once a car gets air. The same applies to yaw and such, and is the reason you sometimes see cars travel quite a way once airborne, when you would think they would get slammed back to the ground fairly quickly if the wings were still running the show.

I'm not sure how this ended up on the Suzuka thread, but I'm bored so.......

[Bagwan]

How do ground effect differ from downforce generated from aerofoiled rear wings? Both generate downforce from the movement of the car forward. The faster the the car is travelling, the higher the downforce generated. They both lose downforce when the car decelerates. The effects of sudden elevation of the car from the ground may have different effect on the two systems. I suspect the aerofoiled rear wing would dampen the landing of the car such that it does not bounce along the track but lands and stick back to the tarmac and continues with little loss of grip and speed.

I doubt ground effect would have the same outcome. As the venturi effect would be lost when the car elevates off the ground. When it lands, l wonder if the venturi effect would immediately re-initialize. I suspect it would only re-initialize when the car regains stability and is level on the tarmac again. Hence, how the car would behave when it lands on the tarmac would be more turbulent than in the case od the aerofoiled rear wing. That said, l have not taken into account what role the smaller rear wing on the new car would play in this circumstances. There is some downforce generated by this new rear wing, hence the landing of the car would be more controlled and would serve to help re-engage the venturi effect and consequently re-establish some level of downforce on the car.

Just thinking out loud, people :-)

As I understand it , the negative pressure under the car is largely created by opening up the diffusers out the back of the car .
It has powerful effect , and so is regulated strictly , partly because of this potential negative effect of making the car flutter like a leaf in the wind , if that wind gets underneath it .

I don't think the regs will be any less strict , but will allow a certain percentage more , in order to offset a loss in "top-side" downforce .

[Nitrodaze]

Hmm - aerodynamics of cars in the air - shouldn't this be on the rally pages? :)

Steve, l think you exergurate somewhat. By elevated, l am talking about those moments when the car goes over the crest of hilly parts of some tracks or over quite bumpy tracks. My use of the word do not extend to cars being airborne.

[Steve Boyd]

Steve, l think you exergurate somewhat. By elevated, l am talking about those moments when the car goes over the crest of hilly parts of the some tracks or over quite bumpy tracks. My use of the word do not extend to cars being airborne.
You're right - I was joking, though I am old enough to remember F1 at the old 'Ring when the wheels did leave the ground.
You may well have a valid point. We have seen issues with DRS when the airflow has taken time to shift and re-establish full downforce when the flap closes. There was an issue in the days of skirts that could re-appear - porpoising caused by movement of the centre of pressure as ride height changes at either end of the car. This could be an issue that designers will have to solve with the new rules.