2019 Russian GP - Sochi

[Nitrodaze]

https://www.racefans.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/sochi-international-street-.jpg

https://www.livetradingnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Untitledf1sochi-701x445.jpg

We head for the picturesque venue of the olympic village of Sochi Russia. A back to back race set on a track with a breathtaking back drop of glorious snow capped mountains. This track is 5.848-kilometre (3.634 mi) and the fourth-longest circuit on the Formula One calendar.

Lewis Hamilton is the first winner of this particular track and is the most successful driver to ever race this track with three wins. Valterrie Bottas is the only other driver on the current grid to win this track. This is typically a Mercedes track, as they are the only team to have won a race on this track, winning every race since the inception of this race in 2014. Mercedes has won this race five times. Bottas holds the fastest race lap record of 1:35:861, and took pole in the same year 2018 with the fastest lap ever on this track at 1:31.387. I have a feeling this record shall be broken this weekend.

Bottas goes very well here, hence if he is to win another race this season, this is the one. That said, Ferrari has kicked the teeth of Mercedes in the last three races. Pulling a magical one two finish on the Singapore track that had Mercedes and Redbull written all over it. The new king in town seem to be Ferrari at the moment. Hence, chances are that Ferrari shall be mighty here at Sochi and may bring to an end the winning streak of Mercedes on this track.

Fortunately, there are enough kinks and tight chicanes to allow Mercedes to have the edge this weekend. While the Ferrari have overcome some of its cornering problems, Sochi remains a track that would test their solution that has worked so well at Singapore. Interestingly, Sochi have similar right angle corners as was at Singapore which bodes well for Ferrari. This is a race that is likely to be so very close in the times from Mercedes and Ferrari. The edge may most likely be a whisker and it would come from the cleanest fastest lap of Q3.

If Ferrari can win here, l shall put my money on Ferrari winning the rest of the races this season.

Favorite to win this race is Bottas but my instincts say Leclerc.

Now check out these fine Russian grid birds.
https://cdn.motor1.com/images/mgl/M3qqw/s1/2009-176973-grid-girls-bavaria-moscow-city-racing-event-20091.jpg
https://cdn4.img.sputniknews.com/images/105316/28/1053162855.jpg

[Tazio]

Looks like it's going to be cool with a high chance of rain on Saturday.
I would have to say if it materializes it should favor "The Boss". But really it favors whoever gets the driest run. A less, but still substantial chance for rain on Sunday. Hell this could be epic!

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EFXmpk3XoAAlJdc?format=jpg&name=large

[Tazio]

Wow, cracking lap by 'stappen

[Tazio]

If this is a wet race it could be an exercise in ice skating. Not only is Sochi a super smooth circuit, it also has the least elevation change of the whole season, 1.9m. Compare that to Silverstone that has 11.3m I'm not sure of the contour of the track (as in does it have a crown to aide water shedding), I do know it has at least one off-camber turn. At least their is not the situation of losing traction downhill or the rivers associated with hilly turns. :idea:

[zako85]

Is Russian GP moving to a new circuit?

https://www.motorsportweek.com/news/id/24607

[Nitrodaze]

Is Russian GP moving to a new circuit?

https://www.motorsportweek.com/news/id/24607

No smoke without fire, this may happen from 2026.

[Nitrodaze]

Its looking like Saturday might be a duel between Ferrari and Redbull. But Mercedes might be sandbagging

[airshifter]

That Hamilton/Albon incident was really close.

I'm not sure if Merc are sandbagging, running more downforce hoping for a wet qually, or actually that much slower than Ferrari.

[zako85]

No smoke without fire, this may happen from 2026.

This probably isn't a bad idea. I think the consensus is now that over the years Sochi produced mostly dull races. On the other hand, I think Russian GP solidly belongs in F1. Russia has a big fan F1 base (F1 races were on Russian TV since early 1990s) and within this decade Russia has been supplying steadily F1 drivers (we have seen three so far) and sponsors, which should be good for F1.

[Tazio]

That was a close one for Fettel ?

[Tazio]

Kimi......Sorrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry! ,)

[Tazio]

The 'Scuds' look mighty

[Tazio]

Albon reeked! Has a lot of places to make up tomorrow!

[Tazio]

Hmmmmmmmm! Nice lap by Rogro. A bit surprised am I:shock:

[airshifter]

Number 4 in a row for Leclerc. I don't even think we have seen his best laps yet either.

They didn't show much of the lap, but whatever Lewis did to get ahead of Seb was a solid effort.

[Tazio]

Alright McLerc, the guy is a god. "The Boss" heroically takes p2, and oh dear.....Charles has made a meal out of fettel......again!

[Nitrodaze]

I think we see the trend of things to come with Leclerc. He is the man to beat. If there is anything resembling the changing of the guards, this is close to it. Vettel is beat and you see it in his eyes. Mercedes is looking 2nd best more clearly now and within reach of the Redbulls.

The man of the moment is Leclerc. I think he is going to be hard to beat over a season in 2020. Mercedes would need to digg deep in the engine department to get back on level gterms with Ferrari.

[airshifter]

I guess they wanted to flex some military might by having the air show going on during the qually interviews. Maybe Putin doesn't intimidate enough just invading the cool down room after races now. :laugh:

Leclerc seems to be the real deal. With Ferrari making strong improvements, it's hard to tell where he really falls compared to the very top though. I don't think Seb is the racer he used to be. So beating him, though still no easy task, is not a comparison to the likes of Lewis or Max IMO.

[Nitrodaze]

I guess they wanted to flex some military might by having the air show going on during the qually interviews. Maybe Putin doesn't intimidate enough just invading the cool down room after races now. :laugh:

Leclerc seems to be the real deal. With Ferrari making strong improvements, it's hard to tell where he really falls compared to the very top though. I don't think Seb is the racer he used to be. So beating him, though still no easy task, is not a comparison to the likes of Lewis or Max IMO.

I hope Mercedes can get their act together. I want to see a proper duel between Leclerc and Hamilton, hopefully with Verstapenn in the mix too. At the moment, Ferrari, like Mercedes are running away with it. Though, it is too late to make a difference to the championships outcome for 2019. But certainly an indication that the 2020 season is going to be exciting from the get go.

[Tazio]

I wonder if Ferrari will use Seb as a human torpedo to put "The Boss" out of the race at turn one? That would tighten the WDC up a tad!

[Nitrodaze]

I wonder if Ferrari will use Seb as a human torpedo to put "The Boss" out of the race at turn one? That would tighten the WDC up a tad!

You are a scary dude Tazio. But l see your point. l doubt Vettel would be party to helping his competition win the championship at the expense of looking much worst than he already looks.

They nearly crashed into each other at the start of the Singapore GP. So you never know.

[Tazio]

you are a scary dude tazio. But l see your point. l doubt vettel would be party to helping his competition win the championship at the expense of looking much worst than he already looks.

they nearly crashed into each other at the start of the singapore gp. So you never know.
HE MAY NOT HAVE ANY CHOICE........ :eek:


https://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/3de76cfccf21d0b966d4137b168c9aba

[Tazio]

Here we go boyz!

[Tazio]

Damn great star by seb! What safety car?

[Tazio]

Racing incident I think! Dang Danny has a mountain to climb !:(

[Tazio]

Ferrari going to swap places already? That would be Shambolic!!

[truefan72]

If i was vettel i wouldn't let Leclerc bye.
Come on this is ridiculous. At the very least Leclerc needs to be closer for it to even be a consideration.

[truefan72]

Ferrari going to swap places already? That would be Shambolic!!

Yup

[Tazio]

Charles Fettel is quicker than you! :sailor:

[gm99]

Vettel is clearly faster than Leclerc at this point, it would be idiotic to switch now.

[truefan72]

But...leclerc did give him the slipstream. Whereas he could have pulled over to the right instead. If it was pre arranged thst he would give vettel the slipstream so he could get past hamilton thrn i could understand leclerc's aggravation.
Drama at ferrari. Perhaps no deals in the first place would have been the better way to go

[Tazio]

McLerc seems to be struggling!

[gm99]

Bottas is completely useless so far this week-end.

[Big Ben]

Interesting situation. It would be the 2nd race in a row that Vettel would win not because he is the best driver of the team but because he is the loser of the team and needs to be favored to win. I didn't understand why Ferrari announced this loser as their no. 1 driver so fast. I won't understand why they keep him next year.

[Tazio]

Ferrari hanging Seb out to dry:dozey:

[truefan72]

Hmm. That's tough for vettel. Ferrari is a complete mess

[Tazio]

Ferrari sabotaged Fettels rig! :laugh:

[gm99]

Double whammy for Ferrari - they lose not only Vettel, but also the race win.

[Tazio]

Is "The Boss"going to be able to hold of McLerc?

[gm99]

And now they pit Leclerc under the SC and waste his chance of attacking Hamilton on the restart. I seriously don't understand Ferrari.

[Zico]

Hmm. That's tough for vettel. Ferrari is a complete mess


Eh? Charles and Seb were clearly told not to fight for position at the start and just defend against the Mercs so Charles didnt defend against Seb... who then ignored team orders to let Charles back in front.

I see it more like Karma..

[Tazio]

Come on "The Boss" :dork:

[truefan72]

Why didn't rbr pit verstappen for softs?

[truefan72]

Bottas needs to effin push.

[Tazio]

Come on 'ottas!

[Tazio]

McLerc is falling back to cool off tires!

[Tazio]

Bottas is "The Man"!

[truefan72]

Wtf is diresta talking about?
Leclerc deserves p2?
Vettel is driver of the day?
Lol

[truefan72]

Albon is clearly driver of the day right now
Aldo crofty had been getting drivers wrong all day

[truefan72]

Albon started from the back and is about to finish in p5 and he isn't even considered for driver of the day??????

[truefan72]

Crofty with another nugget.
"Hamilton hasn't won since Hungary"
Saying it as if it was such a long time ago.

Is that a compliment or just another foolish comment?
You decide

[truefan72]

That online FIA driver of the day poll is utter rubbish

[gm99]

Crofty with another nugget.
"Hamilton hasn't won since Hungary"
Saying it as if it was such a long time ago.

Is that a compliment or just another foolish comment?


It's a fact ;)

[Tazio]

Boss is going to do it......Sweet!

[truefan72]

Great job Bottas

[truefan72]

Boss is going to do it......Sweet!

Yes he did!
Get in there lewis
Both he and Bottas extend their championship leads

[The Black Knight]

That online FIA driver of the day poll is utter rubbish

It’s embarrassing. All the butt hurt Ferrari fans voting for Vettel just to get some kind of solace at his retirement. I was glad Vettel retired. If there is a team agreement you need to keep it. Charles kept his part, gave Vettel the slipstream. Whether or not Vettel believed he would have gotten by anyway is irrelevant. An agreement is an agreement. if you’re not willing to accept it in all circumstances then don’t make it. Ferrari did the right thing by flexing their muscles and pitting Charles first so he could get by again.

Good to see Mercedes winning. It’s just a matter of time before they win both championships now. I have heard that they switched focus to next years car before the summer break and have not concentrated on developing this years car very much. That would line up with why Ferrari have caught them so much.

Bottas was a good wingman again today, but that’s about it.

[Nitrodaze]

If i was vettel i wouldn't let Leclerc bye.
Come on this is ridiculous. At the very least Leclerc needs to be closer for it to even be a consideration.

This is why l am not a Ferrari fan. I hate this about how this team go racing.

[The Black Knight]

This is why l am not a Ferrari fan. I hate this about thow this team go racing.

It depends on what the agreement was. If the agreement was that should Vettel get by LeClerc after LeClerc provides him the slipstream then of course he should let him by. LeClerc gave him a slipstream and played the team game, Vettel should hold up his end of the bargain too. Remember Hungary 17 when Hamilton held up his end of the bargain to let Bottas by after Bottas let him past to have a go at the Ferraris? Same applies here. Agreements must be honoured.

[airshifter]

Strange race to say the least.

Whatever agreement was made before the start, they managed to piss off both drivers doing it. First Leclerc by not putting their foot down with Seb, then Seb by leaving him out to let Leclerc get out ahead again. Maybe something as simple as **gasp** let the drivers race as long as they don't destroy the cars would work better? Then I think they added insult to injury by pitting Leclerc under the safety car. I personally think he would have stayed ahead of Bottas without the stop, and the first stint should have showed them that the chances of catching up to Lewis were slim to none anyway.

Merc might have got lucky with strategy, but the timing of that VSC gave them a race 1-2 finish. With the qually differences I thought Leclerc might have a better shot at Bottas, but it seemed that holding off the Ferrari wasn't all that hard for him really. Without that VSC I think the Ferrari's still would have come out on top, but Merc did have good race pace. Lewis did a good job staying on the back of Leclerc with the tire differences, but I think attacking would have been out of the question.

Great action through the midfield today. DOTD for me would have been Albon, as that was a come from the pits drive that most of us only expect from the more proven greats. Really the lower 5 of the top 10 all had really good drives today.

[Zico]

I havent watched the race yet... only kept rough track of it on the 5 live feed.

In Vett ignoring the team orders... did that force Ferrari into a pit strategy to reverse the order which helped Mercedes... or would it have happened regardless?

[airshifter]

I havent watched the race yet... only kept rough track of it on the 5 live feed.

In Vett ignoring the team orders... did that force Ferrari into a pit strategy to reverse the order which helped Mercedes... or would it have happened regardless?

The Mercedes help came in the form of a VSC. They "made" Seb give the position back by giving Leclerc the undercut on him.

Without the VSC or Vettels car failure, it most likely would have remained a Ferrari 1-2 finish.

[Nitrodaze]

It depends on what the agreement was. If the agreement was that should Vettel get by LeClerc after LeClerc provides him the slipstream then of course he should let him by. LeClerc gave him a slipstream and played the team game, Vettel should hold up his end of the bargain too. Remember Hungary 17 when Hamilton held up his end of the bargain to let Bottas by after Bottas let him past to have a go at the Ferraris? Same applies here. Agreements must be honoured.

I don't see the point of the such agreement. Without the agreement, chances are Vettel would slipstream into the lead anyway. That is, if they did not crash into each other in the process. There was some sort of compensation going on. Maybe for the mistake the team made in misjudging the power of the undercut at Singapore. Whatever the case, it looked very ugly business. In the end they ended up third and one car out of the race. Karma !

[Nitrodaze]

That online FIA driver of the day poll is utter rubbish

There were better candidates obviously. Albon from last to fifth, Hamilton doing a great race making the Ferrari wary all the way and being there to punish Ferrari when they faltered. Sainz for such a fantastic drive. Bottas for soaking up all that pressure from Leclerc in a faster car. It was a great race in the end.

[Nitrodaze]

The fight between Bottas and Leclerc was a little bit more than just keeping Leclerc behind to allow Hamilton to win. It was a battle for the 2nd place in the driver title. Bottas has stretch it out to 34 points lead to Leclerc and Leclerc has taken 3rd place from Verstapenn.

[truefan72]

Strange race to say the least.

Whatever agreement was made before the start, they managed to piss off both drivers doing it. First Leclerc by not putting their foot down with Seb, then Seb by leaving him out to let Leclerc get out ahead again. Maybe something as simple as **gasp** let the drivers race as long as they don't destroy the cars would work better?

Exactly.
It was a completely unnecessary agreement to begin with as Hamilton was on the mediums and was never going to pass leclerc at the race start, And in all likelihood was going to get passed by Vettel at the start.
Then it would have been up to leclerc to decide where he wants to place his car or who to defend from. It was really ridiculous to try and dictate the race order from a race start. Maybe leclerc didn't get that good of a start while vettel got an incredible start. so should vettel be punished for that? Even worse, Leclerc could not close the gap to vettel at any point, even with drs but chose to moan about it over the radio. Vettel was correct in his assessment and even left the option open if leclerc got close to him, but he didn't.
Ferrari made things even worse by leaving vettel out too long and screwing things up for both completely. It was a farcical situation that could have been completely avoided. I'm with vettel on this one.

[Nitrodaze]

Exactly.
It was a completely unnecessary agreement to begin with as Hamilton was on the mediums and was never going to pass leclerc at the race start, And in all likelihood was going to get passed by Vettel at the start.
Then it would have been up to leclerc to decide where he wants to ihis car etc. It was really ridiculous to try and dictate the race order from a race start. Maybe leclerc didn't get that good of a start while vettel got an incredible start. so should vettel be punished for that? Even worse, Leclerc could not close the gap to vettel at any point, even with drs but chose to moan about it over the radio. Vettel was correct in his assessment and even left the option open if leclerc got close to him, but he didn't.
Ferrari made things even worse by leaving vettel out too long and screwing things up for both completely. It was a farcical situation that could have been completely avoided. I'm with vettel on this one.

I didn't enjoy Leclerc whining like a baby for what would have been the actual racing outcome and he knows it. He carried on as if he could have kept the tow to himself and prevent Vettel or Hamilton from using it. The agreement would seem that he should not give the tow to Hamilton but to Vettel to allow Vettel to leapfrog Hamilton into 2nd place. But Leclerc had such a poor start compared to Vettel such that it allowed Vettel to Pass him. That is racing and the team should not have interfered.

Somehow Leclerc and Ferrari expect Vettel to play the role of Kimi, which was never going to happen. I think Ferrari have a gunpowder keg with its wick lit at the moment. There is likely to be some inter-driver friction like Hamilton vs Rosberg brewing at Ferrari.

[The Black Knight]

I don't see the point of the such agreement. Without the agreement, chances are Vettel would slipstream into the lead anyway. That is, if they did not crash into each other in the process. There was some sort of compensation going on. Maybe for the mistake the team made in misjudging the power of the undercut at Singapore. Whatever the case, it looked very ugly business. In the end they ended up third and one car out of the race. Karma !

I agree. I don’t like these arrangements either. Regardless, The agreement still needs to be held ip by both sides if they do make one. This sort of nonsense is why I am not a Ferrari fan.

[Tazio]

I said it at the time, and I'll repeat it now; a position change at lap 10 would be shambolic! Then the undercut scenario was just plain retarded! That safety car was pure karma!

[Duncan]

Another interesting race...

Great drive from Albon - definitely should be driver of the day.

And another good showing from McLaren; good to see them continuing their road back to the front. Hopefully before long we can talk about the "top 4 teams" and not just the "top 3 teams". Will be good to see more driver fighting for the lead. Great performance from Norris again today, hanging on with ratty tires after getting screwed by the safety car.

Ferrari really need to sort themselves out. I don't think there's anything really wrong with their strategy calls; they've done pretty well over the last couple of races on just getting the best results for the team. But they really do need to communicate expectations to their drivers much better. What they did in Singapore was obviously the right thing for the team, getting them a 1-2 instead of a 1-3, and the same thing happened here with a clearly planned set-piece in the long drag to T1. But they really need to just tell their drivers what the score is: they're driving for the team, the objective is for both of them to secure the most points for the team, and any considerations about "fairness" between drivers are secondary. I feel for Charles in the last 2 races, but the upset and tension could have been avoided with some more candid communication up front as to what the deal is.

[Nitrodaze]

I agree. I don’t like these arrangements either. Regardless, The agreement still needs to be held ip by both sides if they do make one. This sort of nonsense is why I am not a Ferrari fan.

Maybe so, but all parties must play their role efficiently. On this occasion, Leclerc had a poor start compared to Vettel and sort of expected Vettel not to overtake him which is unrealistic. In this scennario, Vettel has no oligation to Leclerc. That is how everyone sees it.

[Tazio]

Strange race to say the least.

Whatever agreement was made before the start, they managed to piss off both drivers doing it. First Leclerc by not putting their foot down with Seb, then Seb by leaving him out to let Leclerc get out ahead again.Maybe something as simple as **gasp** let the drivers race as long as they don't destroy the cars would work better? Ya' think?? The members who go back far enough know what a big Ferrari honk I used to be, however I lost respect for their "organization", or maybe "gang" would be a better term. Talk about trying to micro-manage a race, this was absurd. I like McLerc but the team is turning him into a monster, and I don't mean in a good way. Him and Seb are probably both ready for the psychiatrists couch. I will give Ferrari one break. It has been a long time since they have had to manage races from the front. Obviously they are a little rusty! :rolleyes:
I guess the best thing to do is just put it behind them after this strong dose of reality... I tell ya''awl boyz I'm about ready to have this removed :dozey:

https://i.imgur.com/aBmAP6U.jpg


Then I think they added insult to injury by pitting Leclerc under the safety car. I personally think he would have stayed ahead of Bottas without the stop, and the first stint should have showed them that the chances of catching up to Lewis were slim to none anyway. I'm not so sure about the part I emboldened. The first stint Ferrari were probably on tire conservation mode, and may well have underestimated Merc's race pace relative to them. In retrospect it was a bad move, and full credit needs to go to Botta' for his defense. But it is true, when it came right down to it Ferrari weren't fast enough in race trim to pull that move off!
Said "The Boss" of the first stint:

"After that it was just trying to keep up with them, but it was like trying to do qualifying laps every lap trying to keep up with them because they were so fast. It was massive challenge but one I'm really proud of."
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hamilton-qualifying-laps-russia-ferrari/4550483/


Merc might have got lucky with strategy, but the timing of that VSC gave them a race 1-2 finish. With the qually differences I thought Leclerc might have a better shot at Bottas, but it seemed that holding off the Ferrari wasn't all that hard for him really. Without that VSC I think the Ferrari's still would have come out on top, but Merc did have good race pace. Lewis did a good job staying on the back of Leclerc with the tire differences, but I think attacking would have been out of the question.

Great action through the midfield today. DOTD for me would have been Albon, as that was a come from the pits drive that most of us only expect from the more proven greats. Really the lower 5 of the top 10 all had really good drives today.
Agreed, I think Sainz also stood out in this race. He seemed to only be limited by the McLaren performance!

[The Black Knight]

Maybe so, but all parties must play their role efficiently. On this occasion, Leclerc had a poor start compared to Vettel and sort of expected Vettel not to overtake him which is unrealistic. In this scennario, Vettel has no oligation to Leclerc. That is how everyone sees it.

Both their starts were equal, Ferrari have confirmed this after the race. LeClerc gave the slipstream and that is what cost him the lead. Without the slipstream it is highly unlikely Vettel would have overtaken LeClerc. In the end of the day an agreement is an agreement. If they hadn’t discussed all variables involved then what has been pre-agreed must be kept to regardless of any other unspoken variables. The point here is that there could easily have been other variables that were taken into account. It’s impossible to predict them all therefore if you make such an arrangement all
Parties must keep their end of the bargain regardless of the extenuating unforeseen circumstances which are, at best, subjective.

[Nitrodaze]

Both their starts were equal, Ferrari have confirmed this after the race. LeClerc gave the slipstream and that is what cost him the lead. Without the slipstream it is highly unlikely Vettel would have overtaken LeClerc. In the end of the day an agreement is an agreement. If they hadn’t discussed all variables involved then what has been pre-agreed must be kept to regardless of any other unspoken variables. The point here is that there could easily have been other variables that were taken into account. It’s impossible to predict them all therefore if you make such an arrangement all
Parties must keep their end of the bargain regardless of the extenuating unforeseen circumstances which are, at best, subjective.

My point is the slipstream is there regardless of what Leclerc do or don't do. The question was who would have benfittted from the slipstream if there were no agreement. If Leclerc tried to prevent Vettel from using the slipstream, Hamilton would have taken the slipstream for his own advantage. It was an unavoidable weakness of starting from pole at Sochi.

What l am pissed off with Leclerc and Ferrari about is that, they are trying to negotiate a deal for Leclerc to maintain his position at the front by attempting to prevent Vettel from benefiting from this inherent weakness of pole. They want to use Vettel to ensure that Hamilton did not use the slipstream to leapfrog Leclerc into the lead of the race and use that to win the race considering how fast Mercedes race pace was. But at the same time, trying to ensure that Vettel stays in second place like a good boy that he is.

That is what is not acceptable to pure fans of F1 racing. If this is what to come with Ferrari dominating, then l hope Mercedes find a solution to their shortcoming and beat these f**kers back where they belong.

[zako85]

The open pits under VSC are a joke and a mockery of the sport. VSC was meant to preserve the state of the race for the duration of the yellow flag period. And yet, every time there has been a VSC period, we see cars coming to the pits for a "free" tire change. Of course, this serves the holdouts who don't come into pits until the last possible moment, but it screws up others who pitted earlier. This has to stop.

[The Black Knight]

My point is the slipstream is there regardless of what Leclerc do or don't do. The question was who would have benfittted from the slipstream if there were no agreement. If Leclerc tried to prevent Vettel from using the slipstream, Hamilton would have taken the slipstream for his own advantage. It was an unavoidable weakness of starting from pole at Sochi.

What l am pissed off with Leclerc and Ferrari about is that, they are trying to negotiate a deal for Leclerc to maintain his position at the front by attempting to prevent Vettel from benefiting from this inherent weakness of pole. They want to use Vettel to ensure that Hamilton did not use the slipstream to leapfrog Leclerc into the lead of the race and use that to win the race considering how fast Mercedes race pace was. But at the same time, trying to ensure that Vettel stays in second place like a good boy that he is.

That is what is not acceptable to pure fans of F1 racing. If this is what to come with Ferrari dominating, then l hope Mercedes find a solution to their shortcoming and beat these f**kers back where they belong.

No it wasn’t, not for Vettel. It could have just as easily been there for Hamilton. And that’s the point. WIFM? What’s in it for me in LeClerc’s shoes? Hamilton had a shite start so even with the slipstream it’s unlikely he would have got the lead. As for Vettel, you cannot have your cake and eat it. You can’t expect your teammate (and team) to help you and screw them over in the process. By refusing to let LeClerc by, he was screwing both team and LeClerc. The agreement was Vettel would let LeClerc past again if he gained first from LeClerc providing him the slipstream. That’s why Vettel came over the radio claiming “I would have got by ANYWAY”. That’s really the key here. He cannot judge that, he cannot be certain of that and it’s irrelevant. The deal wasn’t “I’ll let you by if I get into first provided I judge that I wouldn’t have gotten by without your help anyway”. It was that he would let him by regardless. That’s what wasn’t acceptable to Ferrari and it’s why they pitted LeClerc early to get past Vettel. Vettel had to be put into second place because THAT’S WHAT HE AGREED. Vettel got what he deserved, a race retirement. So did Ferrari but for once I’m thoroughly with Ferrari and the way they handled it, although not happy they had the agreement in the first place.

[Nitrodaze]

No it wasn’t, not for Vettel. It could have just as easily been there for Hamilton.

But that was my point, It didn't matter that Hamilton had a bad start, he was further ahead than Vettel and most likely to get into the slipstream of Leclerc if Vettel was not using the slipstream. The realistic option for the Ferrari team was to ensure a one-two off the start in whichever order it shakes out. So Leclerc can try to not give the slipstream to anyone but that would be unrealistic, in the end one of those two [Hamilton or Vettel] would take the slipstream regardless of what Leclerc wants.

So the agreement is daft and l am surprised they expect Vettel a four time champion and one of the hardest racers on the grid to go along with that crap frankly. I think they and Leclerc in particular should be ashamed of themselves. Whinny Leclerc has lost my respect at this race.

[The Black Knight]

But that was my point, It didn't matter that Hamilton had a bad start, he was further ahead than Vettel and most likely to get into the slipstream of Leclerc if Vettel was not using the slipstream. The realistic option for the Ferrari team was to ensure a one-two off the start in whichever order it shakes out. So Leclerc can try to not give the slipstream to anyone but that would be unrealistic, in the end one of those two [Hamilton or Vettel] would take the slipstream regardless of what Leclerc wants.

So the agreement is daft and l am surprised they expect Vettel a four time champion and one of the hardest racers on the grid to go along with that crap frankly. I think they and Leclerc in particular should be ashamed of themselves. Whinny Leclerc has lost my respect at this race.

I agree it was daft but that’s irrelevant. The agreement was made, Vettel agreed to it and it was up to him to honour that agreement. He didn’t and he got what he deserved for it as did Ferrari for putting the agreement place to begin with. I have zero issues with Charles position on this because he held up his side of the bargain. I can’t really see why you would lose respect for him when he was the one Vettel tried to screw over. He was quite entitled to be irate.

[The Black Knight]

The open pits under VSC are a joke and a mockery of the sport. VSC was meant to preserve the state of the race for the duration of the yellow flag period. And yet, every time there has been a VSC period, we see cars coming to the pits for a "free" tire change. Of course, this serves the holdouts who don't come into pits until the last possible moment, but it screws up others who pitted earlier. This has to stop.

Agreed and a simplest way to resolve it is that cars not be allowed pit during a VSC periods.

[Nitrodaze]

I agree it was daft but that’s irrelevant. The agreement was made, Vettel agreed to it and it was up to him to honour that agreement. He didn’t and he got what he deserved for it as did Ferrari for putting the agreement place to begin with. I have zero issues with Charles position on this because he held up his side of the bargain. I can’t really see why you would lose respect for him when he was the one Vettel tried to screw over. He was quite entitled to be irate.

I have no regard for drivers who would not win on merit but prefer to use other drivers to prop themselves up. This is why in my eyes, Hamilton is the greatest world champion in recent times. He would fight anyone on equal footing with no demand for favoritism for being a multiple world champion.

Of course at some point the team must do what it takes to ensure they win both titles once it has become mathematically clear who is most likely to win the driver's championship. We are not at that position with Ferrari which is why this crappy agreement shinanigan annoys me so much.

Vettel would leave Sochi feeling the Ferrari team are unlikely to give him a fair chance to race in the future. We saw how they messed Raikonen about. In a sense, Vettel is getting a taste what that felt like for Kimi, while he enjoy the No 1 status. Which beggars the question, is Vettel leaving Ferrari, if so where is he heading. There may be something in the gossip that he may be returning to Redbull. Bottas's seat is vcacant in 2021, that may also be a possibility.

Binotto and his pitwall crew have really f*cked this one up good.

[The Black Knight]

I have no regard for drivers who would not win on merit but prefer to use other drivers to prop themselves up. This is why in my eyes, Hamilton is the greatest world champion in recent times. He would fight anyone on equal footing with no demand for favoritism for being a multiple world champion.

Of course at some point the team must do what it takes to ensure they win both titles once it has become mathematically clear who is most likely to win the driver's championship. We are not at that position with Ferrari which is why this crappy agreement shinanigan annoys me so much.

Vettel would leave Sochi feeling the Ferrari team are unlikely to give him a fair chance to race in the future. We saw how they messed Raikonen about. In a sense, Vettel is getting a taste what that felt like for Kimi, while he enjoy the No 1 status. Which beggars the question, is Vettel leaving Ferrari, if so where is he heading. There may be something in the gossip that he may be returning to Redbull. Bottas's seat is vcacant in 2021, that may also be a possibility.

Binotto and his pitwall crew have really f*cked this one up good.

In this case I take it you have no regard for Vettel either then for making an agreement with LeClerc to prop himself up to first and then successfully using him to do so after LeClerc kept to the agreement? If you’re going to apply this as the criteria by which you judge drivers then surely you must realise Vettel used LeClerc to prop himself up first. And surely you must therefore have even less of a regard for the driver that didn’t keep his word thereafter...

[Nitrodaze]

In this case I take it you have no regard for Vettel either then for making an agreement with LeClerc to prop himself up to first and then successfully using him to do so after LeClerc kept to the agreement? If you’re going to apply this as the criteria by which you judge drivers then surely you must realise Vettel used LeClerc to prop himself up first. And surely you must therefore have even less of a regard for the driver that didn’t keep his word thereafter...

Come on TBK, that is a bizzare way to look at the situation. The slipstream is there for anyone behind Leclerc and even Vettel. Being behind and using the slipstream is not the same as trying to negotiate out of a disadvantaged situation, which Leclerc found himself by taking pole.

With how powerful the slipstream was at Sochi, Leclerc was in a very disadvantaged position in pole. Everyone behind had someone in front to provide a slipstream, Leclerc did not, hence he tried to negotiate to neutralize his disadvantage, that is what l mean by propping up. Vettel was not about to give up his advantage of the slipstream which would make him a fool and he would only look bad as the whiner wins another race at his expense.

I take your point that one should honor a gentleman's agreement made on a handshake. But such an agreement must have mutual benefit. This particular agreement only benefits Leclerc who may have won another race only if Vettel failed to take full advantage of the slipstream. My point is there should not have been any agreement of this kind in the first place. It defeats racing on merit, if Leclerc is that good, he should feel good enough to take the win after a loss of position at the start. He has done so in the past. He should have done it again.

But Vettel's race pace was faster than that of Leclerc, which was why Ferrari looked bad as it became too obvious that they were hanging Vettel out to dry just to get Leclerc in front of Vettel. The whole thing was ugly to say the least. We don't want to be watching this sort of crap, it ruins the entertainment for everyone watching. We want a race where everyone earned their positions fairly.

It makes one wonder if Vettel stopped due to an actual problem or if he was switched off remotely. Because, l think Vettels race pace was fast enough for him to chase down Leclerc and overtake him. I think without the DNF, Vettel was good for the win.

[The Black Knight]

Come on TBK, that is a bizzare way to look at the situation. The slipstream is there for anyone behind Leclerc and even Vettel. Being behind and using the slipstream is not the same as trying to negotiate out of a disadvantaged situation, which Leclerc found himself by taking pole.

With how powerful the slipstream was at Sochi, Leclerc was in a very disadvantaged position in pole. Everyone behind had someone in front to provide a slipstream, Leclerc did not, hence he tried to negotiate to neutralize his disadvantage, that is what l mean by propping up. Vettel was not about to give up his advantage of the slipstream which would make him a fool and he would only look bad as the whiner wins another race at his expense.

I take your point that one should honor a gentleman's agreement made on a handshake. But such an agreement must have mutual benefit. This particular agreement only benefits Leclerc who may have won another race only if Vettel failed to take full advantage of the slipstream. My point is there should not have been any agreement of this kind in the first place. It defeats racing on merit, if Leclerc is that good, he should feel good enough to take the win after a loss of position at the start. He has done so in the past. He should have done it again.

But Vettel's race pace was faster than that of Leclerc, which was why Ferrari looked bad as it became too obvious that they were hanging Vettel out to dry just to get Leclerc in front of Vettel. The whole thing was ugly to say the least. We don't want to be watching this sort of crap, it ruins the entertainment for everyone watching. We want a race where everyone earned their positions fairly.

It makes one wonder if Vettel stopped due to an actual problem or if he was switched off remotely. Because, l think Vettels race pace was fast enough for him to chase down Leclerc and overtake him. I think without the DNF, Vettel was good for the win.

No, it’s not a bizarre way of looking at it, it’s the only way of looking at it correctly. You’re still not seeing the entire picture. You state that LeClerc tried to negotiate to neutralise his disadvantage, but you ignore that Vettel negotiated to gain an advantage. Both drivers benefited and saw the benefit to be gained from this agreement which is why they made it in the first place. Do you think either would have made it otherwise? LeClerc (Pre agreement) was under no obligation to provide Vettel the slipstream to get by Lewis. He could have simply hugged the corner of turn one for the optimal line and there’s a good chance he could have stayed ahead. We’ve seen drivers get pole in Russia and be in the lead out of turn two more than once, so assuming LeClerc was just a sitting duck because he got pole is incorrect. The agreement most definitely had mutual benefit, Vettel got his benefit and then he decided to not uphold his part. He was the one in the wrong here, not LeClerc.

As I say, I hate these agreements as much as anyone but, once they are made, both parties must uphold their end of it.

[Nitrodaze]

No, it’s not a bizarre way of looking at it, it’s the only way of looking at it correctly. You’re still not seeing the entire picture. You state that LeClerc tried to negotiate to neutralise his disadvantage, but you ignore that Vettel negotiated to gain an advantage. Both drivers benefited and saw the benefit to be gained from this agreement which is why they made it in the first place. Do you think either would have made it otherwise? LeClerc (Pre agreement) was under no obligation to provide Vettel the slipstream to get by Lewis. He could have simply hugged the corner of turn one for the optimal line and there’s a good chance he could have stayed ahead. We’ve seen drivers get pole in Russia and be in the lead out of turn two more than once, so assuming LeClerc was just a sitting duck because he got pole is incorrect. The agreement most definitely had mutual benefit, Vettel got his benefit and then he decided to not uphold his part. He was the one in the wrong here, not LeClerc.

As I say, I hate these agreements as much as anyone but, once they are made, both parties must uphold their end of it.

Sorry mate, it is bizarre. How could you say Vettel negotiated to gain advantage when the alternative was to give Hamilton in the Mercedes the slipstream and the advantage to seize the lead and win the race comfortably.

[The Black Knight]

Sorry mate, it is bizarre. How could you say Vettel negotiated to gain advantage when the alternative was to give Hamilton in the Mercedes the slipstream and the advantage to seize the lead and win the race comfortably.

That’s not the alternative though. The alternative was to race as normal and there’s no guarantee Hamilton would have gotten by LeClerc at all especially given the straight line speed advantage Ferrari have over Mercedes. To state that Mercedes would have simply waltzed by Ferrari to turn one is a big assumption and a completely flawed one. Toto (I think it was) said on Saturday that even with a tow and DRS they are only 1km/h ahead of the Ferrari in clean air on the straights. That’s not enough and you can be sure Ferrari would be turned up to 110% at the start of the race.

The logic here is completely sound, you’re simply choosing not to see it.

[Nitrodaze]

That’s not the alternative though. The alternative was to race as normal and there’s no guarantee Hamilton would have gotten by LeClerc at all especially given the straight line speed advantage Ferrari have over Mercedes. To state that Mercedes would have simply waltzed by Ferrari to turn one is a big assumption and a completely flawed one. Toto (I think it was) said on Saturday that even with a tow and DRS they are only 1km/h ahead of the Ferrari in clean air on the straights. That’s not enough and you can be sure Ferrari would be turned up to 110% at the start of the race.

The logic here is completely sound, you’re simply choosing not to see it.

Wolff was talking about the slipstream once they got going. The slipstream off the start is a different matter. And it was strong enough to bring Hamilton alongside Leclerc if he was able to harness the slipstream. If there was no agreement and Leclerc were to try to prevent anyone getting into his slipstream, he may have created a situation where both Vettel and Hamilton have a 50/50 chance of using the slipstream. One thing is certain, Hamilton may have maintained 2nd place and Leclerc would not have a rear gunner to protect him during the rest of the race.

Due to their respective grid position at the start, the slipstream would have been immediately available to Vettel anyway regardless of what Leclerc did or don't do. So the agreement was only good to prevent Vettel from leapfrogging Leclerc into the lead but to stay ahead of Hamilton and play the rear gunner for Leclerc to help him win the race. You can try to spin it which ever way you want, this here is the fact.

The real option available to Ferrari was to allow the race to shape out in a situation where they had both cars in 1st and 2nd positions regardless of the who was where. They are not in a title fight, so what should have really mattered to the Ferarri pitwall was constructors points and not which driver whines the loudest.

[The Black Knight]

Wolff was talking about the slipstream once they got going. The slipstream off the start is a different matter. And it was strong enough to bring Hamilton alongside Leclerc if he was able to harness the slipstream.

The Ferrari has better initial pick up as well.

If I were LeClerc on pole I'd have chosen to initially provided Seb a tow at the start, then once he's alongside Hamilton move over to hug the corner of turn one staying on the inside for turn two. This would mean Seb and Hamilton are alongside each other, Hamilton is blocked, letting Vettel and Hamilton battle it out for the first corner. So really the only loser of any scenario that didn't involve LeClerc doing whatever he wanted was Charles and that played out on Sunday. He had every chance to keep his lead into turn one and far lesser chance of keeping his lead by helping his teammate. Helping Seb he was always going to be the loser.

[airshifter]

I managed to delete my post yesterday trying to fix a typo. :laugh:



Having now read several online sources with Ferrari quotes, as well as having watched the start several times, I think Seb backed out on the agreement that did benefit him.

In hindsight, it wasn't really a bad idea from Ferrari. If the third car gets the tow and the second car doesn't then the chances that they arrive at turn two 1-2 rather than 1-3 increase. And though in this case Seb got a better start than Lewis anyway, I think the plan as it was made was sound. The tow is what got Sainz to the second corner alongside Lewis, and I don't think any of us thinks that the Mclaren has the power that Merc does.

But the actions of Leclerc are what makes up my mind. Not a single driver on the grid would have let another car pass them without any defense attempt, but Leclerc did. Rather than move inside on turn one, he stayed towards the middle of the track. And he made no attempt at all to ever move right and cover the inside line going into turn two either. Instead, he let Seb move inside after getting the tow. At that point Seb had the ability to easily cover the racing line, just at Lewis easily covered it from Sainz.

I think Seb did gain obvious advantage through the actions of Leclerc. Though he cleared Lewis fairly quickly anyway, Leclerc just held his position to the lesser desired line to give it all a chance to play out. If Leclerc had moved right at any point from the start it would have made life harder for Seb. At a bare minimum he would have had to try to make the turn two move on the outside, and that would have required more advantage than he had at that point.


Some sources are stating Seb ignored 5 team calls to swap position. He simply quit responding after the couple radio transmissions they broadcast.

Helmut Marko made some comments that would lead us to think Vettel is more or less done at Ferrari after this event. And this is the guy that put him in a competitive seat.



I really don't like these arrangements. But in hindsight, Ferrari as a team made a decision to roll the dice and gain track position. And really had Lewis started on the same tires and got a better start, it was an idea that might have earned them that 1-2 going into turn 2. At worst case Lewis still got the tow, but Leclerc could have made attempts to defend in that case. So there was really nothing to lose vs not making an agreement, but there was a possible gain.

As for Seb... the fact that he is playing dumb and claiming he didn't understand the agreement doesn't fly with me. It seems that he thought the agreement was simply that Leclerc would make it easy for him to get ahead by never moving or defending. And we all know that isn't what happens when people are racing.

[Bagwan]

From Chuck's point of view , he was a sitting duck , so he arranged an agreement for the tow .
From Ferrari's point of view , it was a way to secure the one-two , but the drivers should know this is a priority anyway , so the logic of meddling was flimsy to begin with .

But from Seb's point of view , as Chuck was sad , and Ferrari had reacted , he couldn't not agree to the arrangement .

However , he could try to find a way out of it .
If he was to get far enough ahead out of the starting sequence , perhaps it wouldn't make sense to drop him back . If he could make him chase hard , Chuck would lose pace , being behind in the dirty air . If Seb could then argue about the logic of the swap for a lap or two more , then maybe that logic would over-ride the agreement .
He was making his argument that the agreement didn't make sense to implement .

[Tazio]

That this "fix" attempt resulted in an abortion fiasco is proof enough to me that such arrangements are really bad for all concerned parties! I'm not a big fan of Seb. He obviously violated a pre-arranged (poorly advised) deal. Where is the place for such nonsense in F1 in this situation? I put the blame squarely at the feet of Ferrari strategists (and anyone else associated with the team that was in on the decision making) Strategy in this scenario should start after the first corner, not before it! JMHO.

[Nitrodaze]

That this "fix" attempt resulted in an abortion fiasco is proof enough to me that such arrangements are really bad for all concerned parties! I'm not a big fan of Seb. He obviously violated a pre-arranged (poorly advised) deal. Where is the place for such nonsense in F1 in this situation? I put the blame squarely at the feet of Ferrari strategists (and anyone else associated with the team that was in on the decision making) Strategy in this scenario should start after the first corner, not before it! JMHO.

I totally agree!

[Nitrodaze]

From Chuck's point of view , he was a sitting duck , so he arranged an agreement for the tow .
From Ferrari's point of view , it was a way to secure the one-two , but the drivers should know this is a priority anyway , so the logic of meddling was flimsy to begin with .

But from Seb's point of view , as Chuck was sad , and Ferrari had reacted , he couldn't not agree to the arrangement .

However , he could try to find a way out of it .
If he was to get far enough ahead out of the starting sequence , perhaps it wouldn't make sense to drop him back . If he could make him chase hard , Chuck would lose pace , being behind in the dirty air . If Seb could then argue about the logic of the swap for a lap or two more , then maybe that logic would over-ride the agreement .
He was making his argument that the agreement didn't make sense to implement .

You are right, the situation quickly became awkward and hanging Vettel out to dry looked bad and Leclerc whining constantly on the radio was pathetic.

[Nitrodaze]

I managed to delete my post yesterday trying to fix a typo. :laugh:



Having now read several online sources with Ferrari quotes, as well as having watched the start several times, I think Seb backed out on the agreement that did benefit him.

In hindsight, it wasn't really a bad idea from Ferrari. If the third car gets the tow and the second car doesn't then the chances that they arrive at turn two 1-2 rather than 1-3 increase. And though in this case Seb got a better start than Lewis anyway, I think the plan as it was made was sound. The tow is what got Sainz to the second corner alongside Lewis, and I don't think any of us thinks that the Mclaren has the power that Merc does.

But the actions of Leclerc are what makes up my mind. Not a single driver on the grid would have let another car pass them without any defense attempt, but Leclerc did. Rather than move inside on turn one, he stayed towards the middle of the track. And he made no attempt at all to ever move right and cover the inside line going into turn two either. Instead, he let Seb move inside after getting the tow. At that point Seb had the ability to easily cover the racing line, just at Lewis easily covered it from Sainz.

I think Seb did gain obvious advantage through the actions of Leclerc. Though he cleared Lewis fairly quickly anyway, Leclerc just held his position to the lesser desired line to give it all a chance to play out. If Leclerc had moved right at any point from the start it would have made life harder for Seb. At a bare minimum he would have had to try to make the turn two move on the outside, and that would have required more advantage than he had at that point.

If you have Sky, please watch Davidson's analysis of the start. Leclerc gets of the line and tried to close down Hamilton, Vettel behind used the racing line grip and some of the tow to get alongside Hamilton who had a bad start anyway. As Leclerc approached the corner with Hamilton and Vettel side by side at this point, but with Vettel half a cars length ahead, Leclerc had two choices; go tight round the corner closing any doors open, but that would hand the slipstream to Hamilton who was on the inside of Vettel. Or take a wider line round the bend and hope that Vettel get just enough tow to get ahead of Hamilton.

As it turned out, Leclerc position in the corner was all he could do whether there was an agreement or not. He either tow his team mate who would slingshot into the lead or tow Hamilton who would hound him for the rest of the race and possibly steal the race with tyre strategy.

From Ferrari's perspective, all they ought to care about is getting a one-two coming out of that corner whichever way it shakes out. If they did, then one Ferrari car is guaranteed to win the race, with the other potentially 2nd.

The Ferrari pitwall lost the plot. They stopped thinking in the best interest of the team and wasted so much energy on the irrelevant issue of driver positions. I suppose this is why they are not ready to be world champions again.

[Nitrodaze]

If you watch the start again, you will see that Leclerc got off the line thinking of number one; himself only. He was not concerned about giving the tow to Vettel but was more concern about closing down Hamilton. By so doing, Vettel only had the advantage of the grippy racing line, a powerfull Ferrari engine and a partial tow to fight Hamilton who also had bad start. Hence, Vettel did not need the tow to pass Hamilton anyway.

At the corner, it was everyman for himself, Leclerc thinking he had done enough to put Vettel in Hamilton's hair to allow himself to get out of the corner in the lead with at least a cars length while those two squabbled. As they came out of the corner, Vettel had used the superior power of the Ferrari engine to nose ahead of Hamilton and took the slipstream of Leclerc. Please note that at this point, both Ferrari cars are outside the zone of the agreement.

From this point on, it was racing as usual. Vettel with a better race pace than Leclerc was always going to slipstream into the lead at the straight after the corner. The agreement was not to finish 2nd at this race. It was to get Vettel ahead of Hamilton from the start. The agreement was stupendous for a start and l think it was reasonable to expect Vettel to fight Leclerc after the first corner. It was all racing, but unfortunately with meddling Ferrari pitwall.

Before this crap, there was half a chance in the constructors championship for Ferrari, if they can manage a consistent one-two for every race to the end of the season. It would have been up to Mercedes to equally maintain a flawless operation to ensure they can maintain some sort of advantage by the time we reach Abu Dhabi. And Ferrari had a real chance, especially with Redbull getting in the hair of Mercedes regularly and bleeding points from them at some races.

This fiasco at Sochi is very costly to Ferrari. Not because of anything that Vettel has done. But because the Ferrari pitwall lost sight of their responsibility [the long game] to the team. That said, the MGUK failure would not have helped matters whichever way things had turned out anyway.

[Steve Boyd]

Best comment was from Alan mcNish who said that all the while Ferrari were trying to get Vettel to yield to LeClerc he could hear Webber's voice saying "multi 21 Seb"

[The Black Knight]

Wolff was talking about the slipstream once they got going. The slipstream off the start is a different matter. And it was strong enough to bring Hamilton alongside Leclerc if he was able to harness the slipstream. If there was no agreement and Leclerc were to try to prevent anyone getting into his slipstream, he may have created a situation where both Vettel and Hamilton have a 50/50 chance of using the slipstream. One thing is certain, Hamilton may have maintained 2nd place and Leclerc would not have a rear gunner to protect him during the rest of the race.

Due to their respective grid position at the start, the slipstream would have been immediately available to Vettel anyway regardless of what Leclerc did or don't do. So the agreement was only good to prevent Vettel from leapfrogging Leclerc into the lead but to stay ahead of Hamilton and play the rear gunner for Leclerc to help him win the race. You can try to spin it which ever way you want, this here is the fact.

The real option available to Ferrari was to allow the race to shape out in a situation where they had both cars in 1st and 2nd positions regardless of the who was where. They are not in a title fight, so what should have really mattered to the Ferarri pitwall was constructors points and not which driver whines the loudest.

No this is what you’re failing to get. The agreement was that LeClerc would be left by if Vettel towed past him, that’s why Ferrari pitted him early.

By the way, if you have some highfalutin idea that pole position in Russia means you’re de facto second after turn 2, watch what Bottas did last year. The initial slipstream he gave to Vettel and then cut over to Hamilton. Last years start is what this years probably would have equated to had LeClerc not provided Seb the tow. Bottas showed how to do it while keeping the lead last year and he did it exceptionally well.

[The Black Knight]

That this "fix" attempt resulted in an abortion fiasco is proof enough to me that such arrangements are really bad for all concerned parties! I'm not a big fan of Seb. He obviously violated a pre-arranged (poorly advised) deal. Where is the place for such nonsense in F1 in this situation? I put the blame squarely at the feet of Ferrari strategists (and anyone else associated with the team that was in on the decision making) Strategy in this scenario should start after the first corner, not before it! JMHO.

I agree but anyone blaming LeClerc for wanting his Vettel to stick to the pre-race agreement is off their rocker.

[Tazio]

I agree but anyone blaming LeClerc for wanting his Vettel to stick to the pre-race agreement is off their rocker. I blame Ferrari, not "The Kid" I'd be pissed off too if I was him!

[airshifter]

If you have Sky, please watch Davidson's analysis of the start. Leclerc gets of the line and tried to close down Hamilton, Vettel behind used the racing line grip and some of the tow to get alongside Hamilton who had a bad start anyway. As Leclerc approached the corner with Hamilton and Vettel side by side at this point, but with Vettel half a cars length ahead, Leclerc had two choices; go tight round the corner closing any doors open, but that would hand the slipstream to Hamilton who was on the inside of Vettel. Or take a wider line round the bend and hope that Vettel get just enough tow to get ahead of Hamilton.

As it turned out, Leclerc position in the corner was all he could do whether there was an agreement or not. He either tow his team mate who would slingshot into the lead or tow Hamilton who would hound him for the rest of the race and possibly steal the race with tyre strategy.

From Ferrari's perspective, all they ought to care about is getting a one-two coming out of that corner whichever way it shakes out. If they did, then one Ferrari car is guaranteed to win the race, with the other potentially 2nd.

The Ferrari pitwall lost the plot. They stopped thinking in the best interest of the team and wasted so much energy on the irrelevant issue of driver positions. I suppose this is why they are not ready to be world champions again.


I've watched the start several times from several angles, including the overhead shots. Lewis moved far more left, Leclerc barely budged right. As for trying to close down Hamilton, not even close. At any point after the cars started moving, Leclerc had several car widths to the right. He could have shot across the nose of the Merc as soon as they moved.

It's my opinion that his position in the corner was only to ensure that Seb stayed in the tow, and he maintained that position with no attempts to cover the inside line at any point. Had me moved to the right through turn one, Lewis might have gained a tow, but Seb was alongside and so the chances of making an outside move were down the tubes. Had me moved inside it would have had a similar impact to when Seb moved inside and Sainz lost the tow. Sainz was fully ahead of Lewis, but when Seb moved he lost the tow and he lost advantage to Lewis almost immediately. Lewis finished him off by outbraking him into turn two, but Lewis got a good view of the back of the Mclaren before it happened.



And my point remains the same. Leclerc didn't move to cover, when anyone racing for themselves would have. It's really that simple in my opinion. Though I don't like such agreements, I don't think Ferrari screwed it up. I think Seb did.

As for race pace, all of the front runners had enough to keep the cars behind them behind them. I don't think it's any shock to see that the leading car can't be caught up easily, as it's often the case these days.

[airshifter]

Best comment was from Alan mcNish who said that all the while Ferrari were trying to get Vettel to yield to LeClerc he could hear Webber's voice saying "multi 21 Seb"

In all fairness, I was thinking it before it was stated on air. The worst thing for Seb is that he acknowledged the swap and just "postponed" it until he ignored it. He would have looked better if he just played dumb the first time they mentioned it.

[Nitrodaze]

In all fairness, I was thinking it before it was stated on air. The worst thing for Seb is that he acknowledged the swap and just "postponed" it until he ignored it. He would have looked better if he just played dumb the first time they mentioned it.

I think we would see the situation differently and that is ok. And l am not trying to defend Sebastien's conduct. We all know after "multi 21" that Seb would not comply with any agreement that he does not benefit from.

My particular qualms with the whole thing was that there should not have been an agreement, especially since they are not in the fight for the drivers championship but have a slim chance with the constructors title. Ferrari should have let their drivers race but ensure that they occupy the 1st and 2nd position after the start.

Leclerc just pissed me off with his whining. I have not heard that much whining since Alonso and the Honda engine.

[Bagwan]

Chuck is a smart kid .
He should have thought about the inherent disadvantage in it before he went out and took pole .
And , maybe should have thought about "multi 21" before making the agreement .

He's just learning .

[truefan72]

I agree but anyone blaming LeClerc for wanting his Vettel to stick to the pre-race agreement is off their rocker.

I do blame Leclerc for exacerbating the situation.
Of the 2 drivers, clearly he was the slower one.
he got a poorer start (no matter what ferrari officially say to cover their ass)
and he absolutely could not keep up with Vettel's pace, to the point where Hamilton was able to stay in striking distance with mediums compared to leclerc's softs
Hamilton to his credit came out and explained how difficult it was to stay with the Ferrari ahead of him, essentially doing qualifying laps to do so
Meanwhile Leclerc just decided to whine constantly over the radio, even when he knew that he had a poorer start and less race pace than Vettel.
That should null and void any gentleman's agreement foolishly made prior to the start.
If they were racing nose to tail for the first 5 laps and then he backed up to save his tires, then came right back at vettel a few laps later, then i would see his point.
but he didn't and then tried to engineer his way to the front.
Just because you got pole on a saturday is no guarantee that it finishes that way on a sunday.
It also isn't your right to be on the lead after the red lights go out.
This isn't the first race at sochi and everyone knows the track. It is what it is.
But only Ferrari manage to mess things up royally. Both the team and leclerc come off looking bad.
This has been their pattern all season long. Trying to control the race from the pits.
Early in the year, it was them favoring vettel to Leclerc's detriment and now they have turned it around completely.
How about just letting them race from the start and the only instruction be to not take each other out. If a situation comes up during the race that makes sense then do so. But certainly not stupid agreements prearranged in a bizarre way to mitigate the nature of the track to one driver's benefit. Getting pole is no inherent right to win the race. All it says is that you were fastes on saturday and have a slight advantage starting the race.

[Tazio]

Chuck is a smart kid .
He should have thought about the inherent disadvantage in it before he went out and took pole .
And , maybe should have thought about "multi 21" before making the agreement .

He's just learning .
Agree Baggie! the "multi 21" part is worth remembering! As for making agreements; it must be awfully hard to go against "The Dons" :pimp:at Ferrari! Seb will soon be sleeping with the fishes!:arrowed: (metaphorically speaking of course) :arrows:

[Nitrodaze]

I do blame Leclerc for exacerbating the situation.
Of the 2 drivers, clearly he was the slower one.
he got a poorer start (no matter what ferrari officially say to cover their ass)
and he absolutely could not keep up with Vettel's pace, to the point where Hamilton was able to stay in striking distance with mediums compared to leclerc's softs
Hamilton to his credit came out and explained how difficult it was to stay with the Ferrari ahead of him, essentially doing qualifying laps to do so
Meanwhile Leclerc just decided to whine constantly over the radio, even when he knew that he had a poorer start and less race pace than Vettel.
That should null and void any gentleman's agreement foolishly made prior to the start.
If they were racing nose to tail for the first 5 laps and then he backed up to save his tires, then came right back at vettel a few laps later, then i would see his point.
but he didn't and then tried to engineer his way to the front.
Just because you got pole on a saturday is no guarantee that it finishes that way on a sunday.
It also isn't your right to be on the lead after the red lights go out.
This isn't the first race at sochi and everyone knows the track. It is what it is.
But only Ferrari manage to mess things up royally. Both the team and leclerc come off looking bad.
This has been their pattern all season long. Trying to control the race from the pits.
Early in the year, it was them favoring vettel to Leclerc's detriment and now they have turned it around completely.
How about just letting them race from the start and the only instruction be to not take each other out. If a situation comes up during the race that makes sense then do so. But certainly not stupid agreements prearranged in a bizarre way to mitigate the nature of the track to one driver's benefit. Getting pole is no inherent right to win the race. All it says is that you were fastes on saturday and have a slight advantage starting the race.

Tell them buddy, tell them!

[Nitrodaze]

Agree Baggie! the "multi 21" part is worth remembering! As for making agreements; it must be awfully hard to go against "The Dons" :pimp:at Ferrari! Seb will soon be sleeping with the fishes!:arrowed: (metaphorically speaking of course) :arrows:

Yep, l think l would be looking around if l were Seb. His Ferrari days are numbered.

[The Black Knight]

I do blame Leclerc for exacerbating the situation.
Of the 2 drivers, clearly he was the slower one.
he got a poorer start (no matter what ferrari officially say to cover their ass)
and he absolutely could not keep up with Vettel's pace, to the point where Hamilton was able to stay in striking distance with mediums compared to leclerc's softs
Hamilton to his credit came out and explained how difficult it was to stay with the Ferrari ahead of him, essentially doing qualifying laps to do so
Meanwhile Leclerc just decided to whine constantly over the radio, even when he knew that he had a poorer start and less race pace than Vettel.
That should null and void any gentleman's agreement foolishly made prior to the start.
If they were racing nose to tail for the first 5 laps and then he backed up to save his tires, then came right back at vettel a few laps later, then i would see his point.
but he didn't and then tried to engineer his way to the front.
Just because you got pole on a saturday is no guarantee that it finishes that way on a sunday.
It also isn't your right to be on the lead after the red lights go out.
This isn't the first race at sochi and everyone knows the track. It is what it is.
But only Ferrari manage to mess things up royally. Both the team and leclerc come off looking bad.
This has been their pattern all season long. Trying to control the race from the pits.
Early in the year, it was them favoring vettel to Leclerc's detriment and now they have turned it around completely.
How about just letting them race from the start and the only instruction be to not take each other out. If a situation comes up during the race that makes sense then do so. But certainly not stupid agreements prearranged in a bizarre way to mitigate the nature of the track to one driver's benefit. Getting pole is no inherent right to win the race. All it says is that you were fastes on saturday and have a slight advantage starting the race.

I think we all agree that these arrangements are foolish and should not be made but the part in bold is where you guys are going wrong. The agreement is the agreement regardless of whether Vettel was faster or not. Him being faster has nothing to do with the agreement and is entirely irrelevant. If he was faster like that I’m sure he could have passed LeClerc after he kept to the arrangement that was made pre race. Otherwise tough shit, he cannot just renege on the agreement just because it doesn’t suit him anymore.

[Bagwan]

I think we all agree that these arrangements are foolish and should not be made but the part in bold is where you guys are going wrong. The agreement is the agreement regardless of whether Vettel was faster or not. Him being faster has nothing to do with the agreement and is entirely irrelevant. If he was faster like that I’m sure he could have passed LeClerc after he kept to the arrangement that was made pre race. Otherwise tough shit, he cannot just renege on the agreement just because it doesn’t suit him anymore.

Totally agree with you TBK .
Seb was trying to nullify the agreement by going fast enough to make it impractical .
It would be the only way for him to go if he felt he was being mistreated , being essentially forced into this agreement , and I think it was likely the case here .

I don't like that he didn't comply , but I don't like the thought that he'd be forced into such a dumb agreement , when the priority should just have been to be 1-2 out the turn 1 .

[Nitrodaze]

I think we all agree that these arrangements are foolish and should not be made but the part in bold is where you guys are going wrong. The agreement is the agreement regardless of whether Vettel was faster or not. Him being faster has nothing to do with the agreement and is entirely irrelevant. If he was faster like that I’m sure he could have passed LeClerc after he kept to the arrangement that was made pre race. Otherwise tough shit, he cannot just renege on the agreement just because it doesn’t suit him anymore.

The problem with your argument is you assumed that Vettel agreed to the arrangement. You don't even know if he was pressured into the agreement. But you happily argue that he must comply to the agreement.




I don't like that he didn't comply , but I don't like the thought that he'd be forced into such a dumb agreement , when the priority should just have been to be 1-2 out the turn 1 .

You finally get it. Vettel is not in the race to finish 2nd, he is in it to win. Any agreement with a result to the contrary will not register with him. And l am very much in agreement with him. I did not like the Multi 21 arrangement either.

[N. Jones]

It seems to me that the undercut that help Vettel so much in Singapore was going to help LeClerc is Russia. By that logic what happened at the start was to allow Ferrari a 1-2, keep Hamilton behind and use that order to dictate a strategy where they could win 1-2.
Do we all not agree that had Vettel's car not given up the pit stops would have allowed LeClerc to end up in 1st with Vettel in 2nd, finishing the GP with a Ferrari 1-2?

[The Black Knight]

The problem with your argument is you assumed that Vettel agreed to the arrangement. You don't even know if he was pressured into the agreement. But you happily argue that he must comply to the agreement.



You finally get it. Vettel is not in the race to finish 2nd, he is in it to win. Any agreement with a result to the contrary will not register with him. And l am very much in agreement with him. I did not like the Multi 21 arrangement either.

That’s just hearsay. We haven’t heard anything from team or driver that indicates he was forced into this agreement. If it turns out in future that he was, then that would, of course, change my opinion. Unless that turns out to be the case it’s just make believe, pie in the sky, wishful fairy land thinking on anyones part.

Considering Seb had no issue threatening RBR with a letter from his lawyers post Malaysia 2013 Multi 21 saga, I find it hard to believe Ferrari would be able to force him to agree to anything he doesn’t want.

[Nitrodaze]

That’s just hearsay. We haven’t heard anything from team or driver that indicates he was forced into this agreement. If it turns out in future that he was, then that would, of course, change my opinion. Unless that turns out to be the case it’s just make believe, pie in the sky, wishful fairy land thinking on anyones part.

Considering Seb had no issue threatening RBR with a letter from his lawyers post Malaysia 2013 Multi 21 saga, I find it hard to believe Ferrari would be able to force him to agree to anything he doesn’t want.

Wow, guilty until proven innocent!
But you still assume that he agreed to the agreement.
The team can make it awkward for Vettel to say no and he may decide not respond with an answer which may have been taken by the team as affirmation of an agreement.

[Nitrodaze]

It seems to me that the undercut that help Vettel so much in Singapore was going to help LeClerc is Russia. By that logic what happened at the start was to allow Ferrari a 1-2, keep Hamilton behind and use that order to dictate a strategy where they could win 1-2.
Do we all not agree that had Vettel's car not given up the pit stops would have allowed LeClerc to end up in 1st with Vettel in 2nd, finishing the GP with a Ferrari 1-2?

That was very much agreed and understood. The argument here is that we did not like Ferrari messing with the race outcome by some dodgy agreement for Vettel not to race Leclerc fair and square after the start.

The counter argument is criticizing Vettel for not honoring the agreement to not race Leclerc and finish 2nd behind Leclerc in a Ferrari one-two formation. I say bullshit! Let the drivers race, that is what several thousands of fans pay dear money to see. Not an arranged outcome.

[The Black Knight]

Wow, guilty until proven innocent!
But you still assume that he agreed to the agreement.
Teams can make it awkward for Vettel to say no and he may decide not respond with an answer which may have been taken by the team as affirmation of an agreement.

Vettel stated clearly after the race that there was an agreement. Now you’re going so far as to suppose what way Vettel may have responded in a meeting. Smh. If that’s all you’re left with your argument is lost, buddy!

[Nitrodaze]

Vettel stated clearly after the race that there was an agreement. Now you’re going so far as to suppose what way Vettel may have responded in a meeting. Smh. If that’s all you’re left with your argument is lost, buddy!

Vettel also said that the agreement did not stand because the circumstance of the race had changed and he felt they were open to race each other. You are being selective of what you choose to acknowlege as the facts.

You are clearly not going to give in to anything contrary to your point of view. So shall we say we agree to differ on this.

[The Black Knight]

Vettel also said that the agreement did not stand because the circumstance of the race had changed and he felt they were open to race each other. You are being selective of what you choose to acknowlege as the facts.

You are clearly not going to give in to anything contrary to your point of view. So shall we say we agree to differ on this.

And Vettel stating that is where he was going back on the agreement. Again, what he felt had or had not changed didn’t matter because the agreement must be kept regardless of how he felt. This is what you’re again not getting. It is irrelevant how he felt or how he saw it once he agreed to the arrangement that was in place he should have kept it. I’m acknowledging all the facts, you’re the one making stuff up, which is pretty much what all your point of view is made of, make believe suppositions.

[N. Jones]

That was very much agreed and understood. The argument here is that we did not like Ferrari messing with the race outcome by some dodgy agreement for Vettel not to race Leclerc fair and square after the start.

The counter argument is criticizing Vettel for not honoring the agreement to not race Leclerc and finish 2nd behind Leclerc in a Ferrari one-two formation. I say bullshit! Let the drivers race, that is what several thousands of fans pay dear money to see. Not an arranged outcome.

Ha! I knew Vettel wasn't going to give up the lead and I thought that the undercut was how Ferrari was going to swap positions if Vettel wouldn't let Charles by.
Yes, I love watching teammates race but the teams want the maximum points so they try to engineer final positions or try to keep the driver who is leading or chasing the drivers title with the biggest lead, hence 'let Michael pass you' and 'Fernando is faster than you' radio messages.

[truefan72]

I think we all agree that these arrangements are foolish and should not be made but the part in bold is where you guys are going wrong. The agreement is the agreement regardless of whether Vettel was faster or not. Him being faster has nothing to do with the agreement and is entirely irrelevant. If he was faster like that I’m sure he could have passed LeClerc after he kept to the arrangement that was made pre race. Otherwise tough shit, he cannot just renege on the agreement just because it doesn’t suit him anymore.

I respectfully (and gentlemanly lol) disagree TBK
There are circumstance that would void such an agreements
1. a poor start (which he had)
2. poor driving ( if he made error/s that affected his pace)
3. poor pace (when the leading car is pulling away from you as vettel did)
4. some kinda of mechanical issue
5. being hounded from behind (by Hamilton) which would make such a switch detrimental to the ability to win the race
And this point is the most important one of all.

Hamilton was keeping pace with Leclerc on mediums. Making the switch would mean that Vettel would have to slow down by about 4-5 seconds just to let leclerc bye and then compromise his race with the possibility of Hamilton passing him, or him getting stuck behind leclerc. And what would have happened if Vettel on the very next lap challenge and tried to pass leclerc? Given leclerc's defending of recent, it might have been all tears and shambles. Would Ferrari then tell a clearly faster Vettel to hold station and block hamilton? Would vettel accept that predicament? Not to mention the ensuing pit strategy. Who would you pit first? A slower Leclerc and then allow Vettel to overcut him while he gets stuck behind traffic and allow Hamilton to run longer on the mediums? All these questions and scenarios are real possibilities before the "retirement" of vettel's car...which only manged to compromise leclerc even more, aided by their botched pit strategy which should have had them in immediately instead of a lap later.

Oh well. We shall never know, But I expect more fireworks at suzuka where I now believe that Ferrari are more than likely to take pole again.

[truefan72]

It seems to me that the undercut that help Vettel so much in Singapore was going to help LeClerc is Russia. By that logic what happened at the start was to allow Ferrari a 1-2, keep Hamilton behind and use that order to dictate a strategy where they could win 1-2.
Do we all not agree that had Vettel's car not given up the pit stops would have allowed LeClerc to end up in 1st with Vettel in 2nd, finishing the GP with a Ferrari 1-2?

absolutely

[The Black Knight]

I respectfully (and gentlemanly lol) disagree TBK
There are circumstance that would void such an agreements
1. a poor start (which he had)
2. poor driving ( if he made error/s that affected his pace)
3. poor pace (when the leading car is pulling away from you as vettel did)
4. some kinda of mechanical issue
5. being hounded from behind (by Hamilton) which would make such a switch detrimental to the ability to win the race
And this point is the most important one of all.

Hamilton was keeping pace with Leclerc on mediums. Making the switch would mean that Vettel would have to slow down by about 4-5 seconds just to let leclerc bye and then compromise his race with the possibility of Hamilton passing him, or him getting stuck behind leclerc. And what would have happened if Vettel on the very next lap challenge and tried to pass leclerc? Given leclerc's defending of recent, it might have been all tears and shambles. Would Ferrari then tell a clearly faster Vettel to hold station and block hamilton? Would vettel accept that predicament? Not to mention the ensuing pit strategy. Who would you pit first? A slower Leclerc and then allow Vettel to overcut him while he gets stuck behind traffic and allow Hamilton to run longer on the mediums? All these questions and scenarios are real possibilities before the "retirement" of vettel's car...which only manged to compromise leclerc even more, aided by their botched pit strategy which should have had them in immediately instead of a lap later.

Oh well. We shall never know, But I expect more fireworks at suzuka where I now believe that Ferrari are more than likely to take pole again.

Hamilton wasn’t really keeping pace with LeClerc on the mediums. They dropped him fairly quick and the gap was around the 3 second mark on lap 8 while Vettel was only 1.3 seconds ahead of LeClerc at this point. This is the point Sebastien should have yielded and he has no excuse for not doing so. The subsequent gap Vettel made to LeClerc later on in the stint is more attributable to overheating tires due to following in the dirty air than any extra pace by Sebastien. At the start of the race he was clearly no quicker than LeClerc and should have yielded.

[Bagwan]

Just read from Saward that Seb's refusal may have been payback for Chuck's lack of tow for Seb at Monza .

[Tazio]

Just read from Saward that Seb's refusal may have been payback for Chuck's lack of tow for Seb at Monza .Yeah I also read it, and beyond that tit for tat nugget is somethhing I hadn't considered:

At the moment Leclerc is being paid a fraction of Vettel’s salary (it is rumoured to be $2.5 million compared to $45 million)

One must add to this mix the question of money. If Vettel moves on, Ferrari can pay Leclerc 10 times what he is currently earning and pay a second driver $5 million and still save $20 million a year. That still doesn't account for 2020, as Seb's contract runs through that season. The question is who would buy out Seb's contract? It looks like they are stuck together again next season, or Ferrari will have to eat a large portion of Vettel's contract. And, who are they going to get to be Chuck's number 2? That seems a lot less problematic!

[The Black Knight]

Just read from Saward that Seb's refusal may have been payback for Chuck's lack of tow for Seb at Monza .

Considering Multi 21 in Malaysia 2013 was payback for Brazil 2012 I would not be surprised if that was the case. Didn’t play out too well for him on this occasion though as Ferrari took when he pitted out of his hands.

[N. Jones]

absolutely

So, what's the argument?

[Nitrodaze]

Considering Multi 21 in Malaysia 2014 was payback for Brazil 2012 I would not be surprised if that was the case. Didn’t play out too well for him on this occasion though as Ferrari took when he pitted out of his hands.

It does raise a number of questions though, did Vettel's MGUK die of natural causes or was it killed? Did Vettel do it out of anger or did someone at the team do it out of annoyance? Some conspiracy theory to get us going.

[Nitrodaze]

Yeah I also read it, and beyond that tit for tat nugget is somethhing I hadn't considered:
That still doesn't account for 2020, as Seb's contract runs through that season. The question is who would buy out Seb's contract? It looks like they are stuck together again next season, or Ferrari will have to eat a large portion of Vettel's contract. And, who are they going to get to be Chuck's number 2? That seems a lot less problematic!

The 2021 market is going to be seismic. Hamilton would be out of contract as well as Vettel, Ricciado, Leclerc and possibly Verstapenn. Not to mention the other drivers with lesser gravitas. There is likely to be some major shuffles. We speculate that Vettel may be moving which may energize the market like a bowling ball to bowling pins.

[Nitrodaze]

So, what's the argument?

No arguments, just friendly banter my friend.

[Tazio]

Perhaps he is going out on a short limb, but the writing sure seems to be on the wall.
Hey Baggie, I'm starting to warm up to Jacques, which isn't quite as perplexing to me is my sudden affection for Seb! :confused:
Of course I'm huge on Chuck, but Seb is suddenly thrust into the underdog role, and I suddenly find myself pulling for "the finger".....Well no, not really that much! :p
It'll be interesting to see how the rest of the season plays out!


“Everyone wants Leclerc, Leclerc, Leclerc. The media, the fans … And there’s nothing you can do about it,” says Villeneuve. “It doesn’t matter how well you drive. You’re on the wrong side of energy. And if that’s the case then you suffer for a while. That’s a law in this sport.”
https://thejudge13.com/2019/10/04/villeneuve-vettel-doesnt-stand-a-chance-next-year/

[airshifter]

Well one thing for sure.

Regardless of who thinks what about the Ferrari approach at Sochi, it's got people talking. Ferrari took a risk and though the initial plan seemed to work, almost everyone seems to be mad at someone about how it was done. I suspect that even if Vettel didn't have car problems, people would be unhappy. And I'm starting to think that even if Lewis didn't get the safety car pit stop and Ferrari finished 1-2 people would still be unhappy.

If nothing else, Ferrari have once again managed to stir a lot of strong opinions in the F1 community!

[Tazio]

:stareup: And of course their is this:

After the Russian Grand Prix, where there was a tense radio communication between Sebastian Vettel, Charles Leclerc and the Ferrari pit, some doubts about the relationship between the two drivers came to light again. On this subject, the daily La Gazzetta dello Sport stated that the Monegasque and the German do not even tolerate each other.
https://thejudge13.com/2019/10/04/internal-ferrari-revelations-acidic-vettel-vs-leclerc-relationship/ Their is plenty of time for this thing to get really ugly before the end of the season. I'm actually hoping for some fireworks! Let's get crazy! :crazy: :bounce::laugh:

[Nitrodaze]

:stareup: And of course their is this:
Their is plenty of time for this thing to get really ugly before the end of the season. I'm actually hoping for some fireworks! Let's get crazy! :crazy: :bounce::laugh:

Hee hah! bring out the clock and daggers! F1 is about to go dark.

[fezziwig]

wow, beautiful, what a lap! :o
Kodi (https://kodi.software/) Lucky Patcher (https://luckypatcher.cam/)