Silly Season 2020

[T16]

wec?

Good shout!

[Indreq]

WRC R-GT is even more ridiculous

[go mads]

i can’t think of one other world championship motorsport category that has 8 entries.
It’s shit.
They need to have a serious think about what is wrong and work out how to get more manufacturers involved.


wec?

wrx

[T16]

wrx

Way more than 8 top spec cars in each WRX event isn’t there?

[EstWRC]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EJXFo6JXsAUdXgc?format=jpg&name=large

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Judging from the Autosport article the final say may have come from the CEO of Citroen. Budar was also confident they would continue.

Indeed... Pierre Budar, pre-Rally Australia:

“We have learned the lessons from Spain and everyone on the team is totally committed to the goal of getting back on the podium in Australia, as well as continuing to plan for 2020 so that we can start the new season in the best possible shape."

[er88]

Genuinely would be weird for Budar to deny it - as he will know either way (because it sounds like Ogier has known).


Another side to this could be that Ogier has decided to leave Citroen, and not take up his 2nd year option. So as a result Citroen have decided it's not worth continuing with Lappi + whatever other driver they could get. I know people have said/written that Citroen have a clause that Ogier couldn't leave for another team, but Citroen were in a desperate place in 2018 and Ogier could've (and probably did) bend them over in negotiations before joining them. Whether that's with demanding huge salary, constant development and also clauses put in his contract. I fail to see a man like Ogier having got himself legally locked into a contract for his final two years, with a team who were the weakest in the WRC field. You'd have thought he would have wanted a get-out clause

[Eli]

I think perhaps because it was a decision made in the last 24-36 hours, Budar was taken by surprise, hence he genuinely believed Citroën would stay for next year, again this is just an assumption, guess we'll be wiser tomorrow if not then next week.

[ggg377]

The other M-Sport driver (besides Suninen) will be paying an arm and a leg for the spot I'm presuming. In my opinion Greensmith would make more sense in the current climate than most of the free agents who are on their way down career wise. I really do feel for Lappi though, he had it all ahead of him.

[T16]

The other M-Sport driver (besides Suninen) will be paying an arm and a leg for the spot I'm presuming. In my opinion Greensmith would make more sense in the current climate than most of the free agents who are on their way down career wise. I really do feel for Lappi though, he had it all ahead of him.

Let’s say M-sport are only really bothered Ona year to year basis, which they usually are.. do you really think Greensmith is a better option than the mass of drivers out there?
Can’t see why they need to take funding from the second seat, as they didn’t this year, and let’s face it, the drivers who really need a spot aren’t in an ideal position to negotiate.

[deephouse]

Why are these cars so damn expensive, no privateers wants to drive them massively or manus just don't want to rent out them.. I don't get it. That's why I'm concerned that series will go down. Could FIA introduce R5 hybrid power and be a lot cheaper and attract more works teams? Could that be a solution? Just my thinking. I mean how bad could have been to have R5 hybrid machinery.

[Sulland]

Yes, it is time to kill off Wrc2017 type cars, they will be replaced with hybrid soon anyway.
Do another Group B to Group A exercise, as in 1986/87.

2020 should be decided in R5 cars. Then the championship will blossom in numbers, and get more open on who will win rallies!

[ggg377]

Let’s say M-sport are only really bothered Ona year to year basis, which they usually are.. do you really think Greensmith is a better option than the mass of drivers out there?
Can’t see why they need to take funding from the second seat, as they didn’t this year, and let’s face it, the drivers who really need a spot aren’t in an ideal position to negotiate.

Greensmith will be bringing money. Which of the free agents could say the same? It's not like they will be directly challenging the monster lineups of Toyota and Hyundai next season. With so many drivers on the market I would rule out everyone but Lappi and Mikkelsen for M-Sport, but even Mikkelsen is a massive long shot. The upside for Lappi would be that he could do the entire season, something that would probably be out of the question with Hyundai. The question is whether Wilson sees it the same way. He said of all the drivers on the market he's only interested in Tänak not too long ago. With Citroen going under and Ogier in Toyota, the only driver that was left out of the equation at the time was Lappi. He will be losing a quick driver with Evans, so that situation does indeed call for mitigation. I think Lappi would be a great choice for M-Sport at this time, if they even stay in the series. I remember they were hanging on by a hair before this season right until Monte Carlo startlist was announced.

[T16]

Greensmith will be bringing money. Which of the free agents could say the same? It's not like they will be directly challenging the monster lineups of Toyota and Hyundai next season. With so many drivers on the market I would rule out everyone but Lappi and Mikkelsen for M-Sport, but even Mikkelsen is a massive long shot. The upside for Lappi would be that he could do the entire season, something that would probably be out of the question with Hyundai. The question is whether Wilson sees it the same way. He said of all the drivers on the market he's only interested in Tänak not too long ago. With Citroen going under and Ogier in Toyota, the only driver that was left out of the equation at the time was Lappi. He will be losing a quick driver with Evans, so that situation does indeed call for mitigation. I think Lappi would be a great choice for M-Sport at this time, if they even stay in the series. I remember they were hanging on by a hair before this season right until Monte Carlo startlist was announced.

I, of course, don't know for definite, but I would reckon Latvala could bring a heck of a lot more budget than Greensmith and a hell of a lot more speed.
No Way Greensmith deserves to be in the main team next year... he's not that great at all.

[SubaruNorway]

I, of course, don't know for definite, but I would reckon Latvala could bring a heck of a lot more budget than Greensmith and a hell of a lot more speed.
No Way Greensmith deserves to be in the main team next year... he's not that great at all.

Greensmith family has owned Crown Oil in the Uk since the 1920's so money is not an issue...

[mknight]

I wrote before that MSport needs at least one "stable", fast and experienced driver if Evans leaves to support their "business case". MSport in WRC is now all about raising up new drivers that pay in one way or another (either immediatelly or with their future income).
They need a fast experienced driver for the youngsters to compare with, to help setup the car and provided feedback, to develop the car and also to show to potential customer that the car has top speed. If they don't have that their value sinks in the eyes of the customer. I also mentioned that Suninen was mentioning quite a few times in Finland how he was missing someone (Evans) to help him setup the car.



Why are these cars so damn expensive, no privateers wants to drive them massively or manus just don't want to rent out them.. I don't get it. That's why I'm concerned that series will go down.

Aero among other things. After Østberg/Prokop team quit in 2017 they were very vocal about the crazy prices for the carbon parts that get damaged on every second stage in a gravel rally.

[Tarmop]

I wrote before that MSport needs at least one "stable", fast and experienced driver if Evans leaves to support their "business case". MSport in WRC is now all about raising up new drivers that pay in one way or another (either immediatelly or with their future income).
They need a fast experienced driver for the youngsters to compare with, to help setup the car and provided feedback, to develop the car and also to show to potential customer that the car has top speed. If they don't have that their value sinks in the eyes of the customer. I also mentioned that Suninen was mentioning quite a few times in Finland how he was missing someone (Evans) to help him setup the car.




Aero among other things. After Østberg/Prokop team quit in 2017 they were very vocal about the crazy prices for the carbon parts that get damaged on every second stage in a gravel rally.

For privateers, cause it is profit. Development also costs. Afterwards bone of the parts ( just to produce labour+materials) isn't that bad.

[ggg377]

I wrote before that MSport needs at least one "stable", fast and experienced driver if Evans leaves to support their "business case". MSport in WRC is now all about raising up new drivers that pay in one way or another (either immediatelly or with their future income).
They need a fast experienced driver for the youngsters to compare with, to help setup the car and provided feedback, to develop the car and also to show to potential customer that the car has top speed. If they don't have that their value sinks in the eyes of the customer. I also mentioned that Suninen was mentioning quite a few times in Finland how he was missing someone (Evans) to help him setup the car.




Aero among other things. After Østberg/Prokop team quit in 2017 they were very vocal about the crazy prices for the carbon parts that get damaged on every second stage in a gravel rally.

This is an excellent point, but I'm not sure if there is such a driver on the market. Evans is certainly said to be an excellent mechanic and I would say he also passes both as a pacy and a stable driver. Tänak is known to be good with tuning the cars. I have heard some contradicting things about Latvala's and Mikkelsen's skills in the garage. And certainly Latvala is the furthest thing from stable right now. Meeke is even worse with all the crashes. It will be very tough for Wilson, that's why I said I really hope M-Sport will continue in the series.

[Allez Andruet]

I can’t think of one other world championship motorsport category that has 8 entries.
It’s shit.

I wasn't comparing it to any motorsport or sport, but against the different eras of this very sport. If the number of top level factory entries is the most important feature, then rally's most likely never the sport for you. That "battle" we will always lose.

[AnttiL]

Why are these cars so damn expensive, no privateers wants to drive them massively or manus just don't want to rent out them..

Remember Janne Tuohino? He bought a Fiesta WRC and put it out for rent. It's been rented for one WRC event and one local event...

https://www.ewrc-results.com/carinfo/69-ford-fiesta-wrc-17/?spz=3763

[AnttiL]

Greensmith will be bringing money. Which of the free agents could say the same? It's not like they will be directly challenging the monster lineups of Toyota and Hyundai next season. With so many drivers on the market I would rule out everyone but Lappi and Mikkelsen for M-Sport, but even Mikkelsen is a massive long shot. The upside for Lappi would be that he could do the entire season, something that would probably be out of the question with Hyundai. The question is whether Wilson sees it the same way. He said of all the drivers on the market he's only interested in Tänak not too long ago. With Citroen going under and Ogier in Toyota, the only driver that was left out of the equation at the time was Lappi. He will be losing a quick driver with Evans, so that situation does indeed call for mitigation. I think Lappi would be a great choice for M-Sport at this time, if they even stay in the series. I remember they were hanging on by a hair before this season right until Monte Carlo startlist was announced.

I still say Lappi won't go to M-Sport without getting rid of EVEN Management because

- Wilson won't be paying him a big salary
- EVEN won't allow him to pay for a drive (through sponsors)
- If Lappi would drive M-Sport on a small salary like Evans, it would likely include an "investment" with a future share, which EVEN wouldn't probably like or Lappi would have to give shares to two external parties of his salary.

Tidemand parted ways with EVEN and drove with M-Sport.

Mikkelsen already started by parting ways with EVEN.

[EstWRC]

well, then he will sit at home next year

[AnttiL]

well, then he will sit at home next year

Another point: Lappi had the worst point score of the year, why would Wilson or any team boss pick him ahead of Suninen, Latvala, Meeke, Evans or Mikkelsen? Maybe be it's deserved to sit at home?

[EstWRC]

Citroen says it's discussing 2020 with Ogier amid WRC pullout talk

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/147152/citroen-says-it-discussing-2020-with-ogier

[Allez Andruet]

Citroen says it's discussing 2020 with Ogier amid WRC pullout talk

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/147152/citroen-says-it-discussing-2020-with-ogier

And what the f*** is that supposed to mean? Just bring on Monte already so we'd know who's there and in which car.

[go mads]

Way more than 8 top spec cars in each WRX event isn’t there?

Yes, sorry I thought we were talking manufacturer's entries, which is practically zero, which strangely enough has made for a great season with great entries

[T16]

I wasn't comparing it to any motorsport or sport, but against the different eras of this very sport. If the number of top level factory entries is the most important feature, then rally's most likely never the sport for you. That "battle" we will always lose.

Eight WRC cars would be bad now. Just because it’s been worse in the past, doesn’t mean it’s in a good place now.
Rally is definitely the best motorsport for me, I just would love to see a stacked field and I can’t see anything improving any time soon.
Why can’t I desire for there to be more entries, to make it a more exciting spectacle?
It was good (for the most part) in the 90’s / 2000’s so why not again?
To say that is a battle we will always lose probably goes against the thinking of the majority of fans and certainly the current manufacturers and promoters.
I’d be very surprised if I was the only one thinking the current status is acceptable.
Hate to say it, but look at F1... even with Mercedes potentially pulling out and a few other teams always blowing hit and cold, it looks like the majority are going to commit to the next set of regulations and with this comes sustainability and therefore commitment and interest from others joining the series.
Right now, rallying looks secure for one, maybe two seasons at the most (in terms of manufacturer commitment) and I desperately hope they find a way of changing this and getting it back to a healthy position again.

[T16]

Yes, sorry I thought we were talking manufacturer's entries, which is practically zero, which strangely enough has made for a great season with great entries

I guess as long as we have top drivers in the ‘full fat’ cars, it doesn’t bother me who runs them.
I know I’ll get shot down, but I just find the current R5 spec so underwhelming, both on TV and particularly watching a stage live. They’re so bloody quiet for a start.
As someone posted above, maybe make the current R5 the new generation and hybrid, but please make them twice as loud.

[pantealex]

How many of 2019 WRC events had only 8 modern WRC cars if we take those 2 Citroen´s away ?

I counted only 4.

[T16]

How many of 2019 WRC events had only 8 modern WRC cars if we take those 2 Citroen´s away ?

I counted only 4.

Not sure to be honest, I meant in terms of how many will turn up if we have 3, 3 and two from the current teams.
Still can’t be much higher than 8 though.

[AndyRAC]

Hate to say it, but look at F1... even with Mercedes potentially pulling out and a few other teams always blowing hit and cold, it looks like the majority are going to commit to the next set of regulations and with this comes sustainability and therefore commitment and interest from others joining the series.


For all it's problems, and it has loads; F1 still gets massive exposure, that the WRC can only dream of. It's why Manufacturers will still sign up.

We've just had 3 fabulous seasons with the 2017 WRCars - Toyota and Hyundai have thrown everything at it (and maybe more) to win. Citroen haven't had the budget they once did - and it has shown. M-Sport do a great job, but struggle because Ford don't commit financially like Toyota & Hyundai.

I think some people have been blinded by All Live; it's great for the hardcore fans, but not enough other 'free to air' coverage is out there. And Manufacturers, sponsors, etc want as many eyes on their product as possible.

[meh]

M-Sport do a great job, but struggle because Ford don't commit financially like Toyota & Hyundai.

Yes, they didn't have a "delivery guy" on board this season, but I would not call 2 titles in 2017+ era a struggle... :)

[Mise]

I guess as long as we have top drivers in the ‘full fat’ cars, it doesn’t bother me who runs them.
I know I’ll get shot down, but I just find the current R5 spec so underwhelming, both on TV and particularly watching a stage live. They’re so bloody quiet for a start.
As someone posted above, maybe make the current R5 the new generation and hybrid, but please make them twice as loud.

I think R5 should be the top class and all cars should be run by private teams in different categories.
With bigger turbo restricters they could have 350 bhp's with current aero.
All teams would have two cars.

Categorie A "Top Dogs"
All the support from the factory and 1 manu could have more than one Cat A team.
We could then have like 6 CAT A Skodas, 4 CAT A Vw's and so on.

Categorie B
These would be customer cars and these teams could drive for their own championship.
Then these teams could do ERC and national champs as well and could measure their speed against the top dogs.

All cars shoud still cost the same and every upgrade should be available to all teams.

Of course this needs more thinking and details, but this was just a quick post.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Everyone has enjoyed the '2017 Cars' but losing a Manufacturer and having no privateers able to afford them could be the price to pay.

Back on topic...

Seems persuading Ogier to stay is the deciding factor on Citroen's continuation.

[Mirek]

Everyone has enjoyed the '2017 Cars' but losing a Manufacturer and having no privateers able to afford them could be the price to pay.

The development would be likely the same with different car formula. It's been always like that. At the beginning with new rules more manufacturers join but later the unsuccessful start to leave until the situation gets to such bad shape that another restart by the rules is needed.

It's true that it looks like the current cars made it happen faster. Though it's a question if it's because of the rules or because of the general situation in the automotive industry and the society.

[denkimi]

If you make r5 the top class, you will kill either their price or their equality.

As soon as manufacturers put their full budget behind it no privateer will be able to compete. Even with officially 'equal' cars.

[Indreq]

It seems to me that aero is the problem here. Being complicated solution, it has taken lot of development money, also huge amounts of carbon parts are spent with each rally. I think i remember some video about TGR Tallinn operation where someone hinted that lot of wings, bumpers and wheel arches are scrapped after every event.

Also rallies should more keep to tarmac and smoother gravel, really rough rallies are expensive as they require somewhat different approach (incl more testing/developing) and break cars more.

[deephouse]

In WTCR they don't allow official manufacturer entry and look how close it is and how much drivers are from many different teams with many more brands. This year in World RX it's been quite awesome to watch with no works teams and still most of the fastest guys at the wheel, just by privateer teams. It could work here too. Hyundai have good promotion with their i30 and their straight away title for an example throught satellite team. Just make a car and enter with a team and that's it.

[Mirek]

In WTCR they don't allow official manufacturer entry and look how close it is and how much drivers are from many different teams with many more brands. This year in World RX it's been quite awesome to watch with no works teams and still most of the fastest guys at the wheel, just by privateer teams. It could work here too. Hyundai have good promotion with their i30 and their straight away title for an example throught satellite team. Just make a car and enter with a team and that's it.

Good luck with that idea. You compare WRC with sports which have a fraction of followers compared to the WRC and that is what will happen with the WRC when manufacturers leave. Once the manufacturers leave, the big sponsors and their money leave too. In a few years WRC will just disappear from the scope of general public except a small percentage of the hardcore fans. As a result the series won't become more accessible to the privateers because it will become uninteresting for the sponsors and too expensive to run without them.

[Rally Power]

I think R5 should be the top class and all cars should be run by private teams in different categories.


It’s impossible to run the WRC without manufacturers. It’s only thanks to their direct involvement that the series is the pinnacle of the sport; without them the WRC would have very little interest: no more state-of-the-art cars, top level drivers or even iconic events (as most organizers wouldn’t want to pay for a second level series). IRC downgrading to ERC is the best example one can look about manus pull out effect.

This said, the FIA should be focused on a more serious and effective budget limitation, without changing current car specs. To stop the calendar expansion (there’s little point on running events in distant countries with weak rally scene) and limiting manus tests to a few common sessions or demo events (like in other top series) could help. In addition, manus should demand the FIA and RB/MH to boost WRC promotion (starting by getting All Live free), as a lot more could be done with the millionaire fees paid by events organizers.

[Allez Andruet]

Eight WRC cars would be bad now. Just because it’s been worse in the past, doesn’t mean it’s in a good place now.
Rally is definitely the best motorsport for me, I just would love to see a stacked field and I can’t see anything improving any time soon.
Why can’t I desire for there to be more entries, to make it a more exciting spectacle?
It was good (for the most part) in the 90’s / 2000’s so why not again?
To say that is a battle we will always lose probably goes against the thinking of the majority of fans and certainly the current manufacturers and promoters.
I’d be very surprised if I was the only one thinking the current status is acceptable.
Hate to say it, but look at F1... even with Mercedes potentially pulling out and a few other teams always blowing hit and cold, it looks like the majority are going to commit to the next set of regulations and with this comes sustainability and therefore commitment and interest from others joining the series.
Right now, rallying looks secure for one, maybe two seasons at the most (in terms of manufacturer commitment) and I desperately hope they find a way of changing this and getting it back to a healthy position again.

Ofcourse everybody fancies (or I'd be surprised if some didn't) about more entries and more manufacturers. That's a no-brainer. My point was, that amongst the different eras of World Rallying, having eight factory-entered cars in every round of the championship is not that bad. As said, we've seen better, we've seen worse.

Then again, that was always the risk with these current super cars that the number of top level entries would be somewhat limited.

[Indreq]

Perhaps they should limit R5 rules, so that they are even more cheaper and more equal than today, and homologate only those R5's which manufacturers are represented also on higher level, in WRC. So that profits from R5 sales pay for WRC campaign and WRC is mandatory (kind of homologation requirement) in order to get to sell R5s?

[AnttiL]

My point was, that amongst the different eras of World Rallying, having eight factory-entered cars in every round of the championship is not that bad. As said, we've seen better, we've seen worse.

Exactly. 1996-1997 there were only three teams with two cars each. On earlier seasons some rounds like New Zealand and Sweden were often for drivers points only, resulting in very low-level manufacturer entries

[Fast Eddie WRC]

David Evans podcast says we shouldnt rule out Ogier going back to M-Sport if Citroen leave.

He has a contract for 2020 and if Citroen leave they would have to pay that up. That would mean a cheaper deal for M-Sport to employ him. Plus he knows the team and car, and there's much fewer PR days there than would be at Toyota.

[deephouse]

Exactly. 1996-1997 there were only three teams with two cars each. On earlier seasons some rounds like New Zealand and Sweden were often for drivers points only, resulting in very low-level manufacturer entries

It's not about manufacturer entries. I'm talking about the whole. Yes there were 3 brands only, but quite far more entries and cars on the field than today, even if they were not there for full season. I counted 15 different teams with 3 works ones (Toyota was there too but only privateers). And at the end there were 35 different drivers on the leaderboard, nowadays it's mixed with lower classes but still don't get so many entries in WRC cars. That's why it's bad.

It's shame because there is so much proven drivers out there who will never came to the top level because of unlimited costs of these machines. And a lot now who will lose their jobs if Citroen really leaves.

We must enjoy it as long as we can and not thinking about dark. That's just my opinion and maybe FIA have their own ways of massively reduce costs to boost others to join the field, but right now it doesn't seem that they are doing right thing.

[denkimi]

The easiest way to save money is to get rid of most of the current aero parts. Or at least make them from fiberglass instead of carbon fiber.

[Mirek]

Perhaps they should limit R5 rules, so that they are even more cheaper and more equal than today, and homologate only those R5's which manufacturers are represented also on higher level, in WRC. So that profits from R5 sales pay for WRC campaign and WRC is mandatory (kind of homologation requirement) in order to get to sell R5s?

Nice theory but just a theory.

Why do you think you can always make things cheaper? By magic wand? R5 rules managed to keep the cost same for some 7 years already. That's huge achievement alone. R5 rules work. Just don't fix what is not broken, please.



Guys, You really miss the bigger picture. The problem really isn't in few carbon wings. That's not why manufacturers leave. Citroën leaves because they don't win and because they don't gain much from the brand's involvement. In fact quite the opposite. If Ogier leaves it damages the brand because it shows them as incompetent. That really isn't about few thousand Euros for aero, active center diff or whatever. The carmakers have enough money to invest in the sport if they see it as worth the investment - but they have to do it right.

The last thing is IMHO what was wrong on Citroën side. It's actually the same thing like our never ending discussions about cheaper but slower cars (R4 thread for example). If you invest into something which is not good enough you throw the money out of the window. And that is what was wrong with Citroën. They invested a lot of money but not enough to be fully committed - ultimately they failed just like they had to, simply because the others have shown higher level of commitment. Look at VW or Toyota, or Škoda in WRC2. It's the same. If you decide to join you have to commit fully and be prepared to raise your game if others do that. Otherwise you are bound to fail and in that case all your investment goes in vain.

[Rally Power]

Guys, You really miss the bigger picture. The problem really isn't in few carbon wings. That's not why manufacturers leave. Citroën leaves because they don't win and because they don't gain much from the brand's involvement. In fact quite the opposite. If Ogier leaves it damages the brand because it shows them as incompetent. That really isn't about few thousand Euros for aero, active center diff or whatever. The carmakers have enough money to invest in the sport if they see it as worth the investment - but they have to do it right.

Actually the bigger picture is that the WRC fights against FE, WEC and even the WRX to get new manus (F1 is a case apart). Besides each series marketing value, their overall running budgets are also considered in manus options to enter a competition and if costs start to rise on a wild spiral manus will tend moving to other series. That was WEC case a few years ago and the WRC in the mid 00’s; it doesn’t take much to see we’re getting closer to desertion level again.

[Mirek]

No. The cost is relative. You can never compare cost alone. You can compare it only if you know what you get for your money and that is what we don't know - but the manufacturers do and they can decide what is worth it.

This situation when manufacturers are leaving or getting involved don't tell you anything about the absolute cost. It tells you about the ratio between the cost and the value. As I wrote in the other thread the good product is never too expensive - in a simpler words if you offer a lot of value you can ask a lot of money for that and the customer will pay. That's why you can never speak only about cost without discussing the value.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

We have a new thread on the future of WRC: https://www.motorsportforums.com/showthread.php?40422-WRC-future

[dimviii]

ΜΜ sells a brand new fiesta r5 mk2...hmmm...
https://twitter.com/eWRCresults/status/1195085488165666818

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Director of PSA Motorsport, Jean-Marc Finot told AUTOhebdo about the future of Citroën in the WRC, in the short and medium term.

Many rumors circulating about the future of Citroën - in the short and medium terms - in the World Rally Championship. The firm's participation in the chevrons for the 2020 season is mainly linked to Sébastien Ogier, whom Toyota is courting.

And for good reason, the presence in the team of the six-time world champion would guarantee the tricolor entity of title chances, especially as the new aerodynamic kit of the C3 WRC (designed by Oreca) would be satisfactory. On the other hand, a departure of the native of Gap for Toyota would sound the death knell of his participation in the coming exercise.

The WRC is thinking about hybridization. Promoting the hybrid via Peugeot in Endurance and Citroën in WRC does it make sense?
Hybridization of the WRC is planned for 2022. And sizing terms, at the level of motorsport, knowing that we already have the Formula E (with DS, Editor's note), we do not plan to take two large programs such as the WEC and the WRC. And the choice was to leave on the WEC. We will not engage in rally by 2022 with hybridization. That's the choice we took.

And in the short term?
We have discussions with Sébastien (Ogier, editor's note) about his participation in 2020. At this point, to talk about the different hypotheses would be to speculate.

Is the ball in Sébastien Ogier's court?
Our reference schedule was five years, as announced by Mr. Tavares (early 2017. Editor's note). And there are discussions going on for the 2020 season. There is no intention to suspend this program.

https://www.autohebdo.fr/wrc/actualites/jean-marc-finot-nous-ne-nous-engagerons-pas-en-rallye-l-horizon-2022-207301.html

[Rally Power]

No. The cost is relative. You can never compare cost alone. You can compare it only if you know what you get for your money and that is what we don't know - but the manufacturers do and they can decide what is worth it.


You’re once again forgetting that the WRC is competitng for manus with other series. If other series marketing value can match the WRC marketing value, how on earth aren’t each series overall costs important for a manu to decide where to invest?

[mknight]

Hmm the interview with Finot makes me think of an interesting theory.....

Ogier started talking to Toyota and seeing than Citroen started to spread rumors of leaving
Now they are carefully crafting then towards "it depends on Ogier"

So if Ogier signs for Toyota he will get blamed by french people/press for Citroen leaving. Making this whole rumor a pressure tool for keeping him.

Or another related option is that they decided to leave already and now just try to blame it on Ogier.

[Rally Power]

Director of PSA Motorsport, Jean-Marc Finot told AUTOhebdo about the future of Citroën in the WRC, in the short and medium term.

Many rumors circulating about the future of Citroën - in the short and medium terms - in the World Rally Championship. The firm's participation in the chevrons for the 2020 season is mainly linked to Sébastien Ogier, whom Toyota is courting.

And for good reason, the presence in the team of the six-time world champion would guarantee the tricolor entity of title chances, especially as the new aerodynamic kit of the C3 WRC (designed by Oreca) would be satisfactory. On the other hand, a departure of the native of Gap for Toyota would sound the death knell of his participation in the coming exercise.

The WRC is thinking about hybridization. Promoting the hybrid via Peugeot in Endurance and Citroën in WRC does it make sense?
Hybridization of the WRC is planned for 2022. And sizing terms, at the level of motorsport, knowing that we already have the Formula E (with DS, Editor's note), we do not plan to take two large programs such as the WEC and the WRC. And the choice was to leave on the WEC. We will not engage in rally by 2022 with hybridization. That's the choice we took.

And in the short term?
We have discussions with Sébastien (Ogier, editor's note) about his participation in 2020. At this point, to talk about the different hypotheses would be to speculate.

Is the ball in Sébastien Ogier's court?
Our reference schedule was five years, as announced by Mr. Tavares (early 2017. Editor's note). And there are discussions going on for the 2020 season. There is no intention to suspend this program.

https://www.autohebdo.fr/wrc/actualites/jean-marc-finot-nous-ne-nous-engagerons-pas-en-rallye-l-horizon-2022-207301.html

So, they’ll be there in 2020 (with or without Ogier) and 21 (5 years plan), leaving at the end of 21. If so, that’s not too bad and always better than an immediate pull out.

[Allez Andruet]

I don't wanna sound negative, but the 5-year plan doesn't mean a thing IF the executives at Citroen/PSA want to terminate the program. VW had made a similar plan and commitment and we all know how that turned out.

An open plea to Ogier: please don't sign with Toyota!

[Mirek]

You’re once again forgetting that the WRC is competitng for manus with other series. If other series marketing value can match the WRC marketing value, how on earth aren’t each series overall costs important for a manu to decide where to invest?

You answered yourself.


If other series marketing value can match the WRC marketing value...

1) You don't know what marketing value each series has for each manufacturer. Only they know.
2) If the series marketing value is low the first thing you shall do is not to think how to decrease the cost but how to increase the value because the value is what the manufacturers are searching for. They don't seek a cheap series which is basically useless for them.

[denkimi]

No. The cost is relative. You can never compare cost alone. You can compare it only if you know what you get for your money and that is what we don't know - but the manufacturers do and they can decide what is worth it.

This situation when manufacturers are leaving or getting involved don't tell you anything about the absolute cost. It tells you about the ratio between the cost and the value. As I wrote in the other thread the good product is never too expensive - in a simpler words if you offer a lot of value you can ask a lot of money for that and the customer will pay. That's why you can never speak only about cost without discussing the value.
The thing is that the wrc keeps its marketing value, even when the cars would be only halve as expensive.

When you limit costs, manufacturers, who want to win will still put in as much as they think is it worth, but smaller teams like m-sport have a bigger chance of keeping up.

[Tarmop]

No, because in the end, those 0.x seconds that makes one faster than the other one, cost the same..., maybe even more, because of the limitations.

[Mirek]

The thing is that the wrc keeps its marketing value, even when the cars would be only halve as expensive.

That's not true. The automotive world is changing and the value of a purely combustion series is decreasing.

[Japé]

How to figure out how Peugeot participation in WEC or DS in Formula E will bring more added value for PSA than Citroën would bring being in hybrid WRC?

What connection consumer sees between DS and Formula E?

Or what was the VW's gain not to allow private WRC entries after quitting, but then right after being present in R5 with privateers?

[Rally Power]

I don't wanna sound negative, but the 5-year plan doesn't mean a thing IF the executives at Citroen/PSA want to terminate the program. VW had made a similar plan and commitment and we all know how that turned out.

An open plea to Ogier: please don't sign with Toyota!

VW made the statement long before the Dieselgate.

Finot reports to PSA brands CEO’s and he just said they won’t suspend the program. There’s no need to keep speculating about Citroen immediate pull out.

What’s left to be seen is Ogier situation. It has been rumoured he wants additional warranties of being able to figth for the title (like a 3 cars team) and if those aren’t fulfilled he’ll probably try to break his contract and move to Toyota.

Bon voyage!

[Sulland]

Nice theory but just a theory.

Why do you think you can always make things cheaper? By magic wand? R5 rules managed to keep the cost same for some 7 years already. That's huge achievement alone. R5 rules work. Just don't fix what is not broken, please.



Guys, You really miss the bigger picture. The problem really isn't in few carbon wings. That's not why manufacturers leave. Citroën leaves because they don't win and because they don't gain much from the brand's involvement. In fact quite the opposite. If Ogier leaves it damages the brand because it shows them as incompetent. That really isn't about few thousand Euros for aero, active center diff or whatever. The carmakers have enough money to invest in the sport if they see it as worth the investment - but they have to do it right.

The last thing is IMHO what was wrong on Citroën side. It's actually the same thing like our never ending discussions about cheaper but slower cars (R4 thread for example). If you invest into something which is not good enough you throw the money out of the window. And that is what was wrong with Citroën. They invested a lot of money but not enough to be fully committed - ultimately they failed just like they had to, simply because the others have shown higher level of commitment. Look at VW or Toyota, or Škoda in WRC2. It's the same. If you decide to join you have to commit fully and be prepared to raise your game if others do that. Otherwise you are bound to fail and in that case all your investment goes in vain.

I have not read the finacial report from PSA, but I am guessing they do not make as much money as planned. When planning ahead, they must cut where it is easy. Motorsport is a low hanging fruite. If the sport activity does not give the wanted effect, commercially or development wise, you cut the activity from the budget. It has happened before, and it will happen again.

New technology is coming in the car industry, hybrid, electric and fuelcell is coming first, and the tech development will continue. The combustion engine has been more or less the same for a very long time, and have made great progress. This goes both for petrol and diesel engines, to a certain degree also the rotary wankel engine.

the manufacturers gets most from rally, since it gives them a very good testbed, better than track racing.

Back to the future of WRC. I share Mireks view on the R5 success. Clear concise rules, with only a few jokers have kept the development, and by that cost spiralling has been the basis for succes. The same rules have been used in R4, but it is too early to say if that class will blossom, the price difference in buying it might be too small up to R5, even after the price drop of the kit from Oreca.

I mean that R5 or Rally 2 will be a good gap filler from 2020 until the new tech rules for the top class of world rally are finalized, maybe for the 2022 season. But then the strict R5 rules must be kept by FIA, or cost will sky rocket. And I mean the tech rules should be tha same for all Rally 2 cars, no special rules for manufacurers. The best drivers will still win, but some times the results will give room for young and old talent, to make rallies even more exiting!

[Tarmop]

So you are saying to let those magnificent beasts sit in the garage and go for R5 until 2022? the sport will be dead by the time of Rally Monte Carlo then.
TGR would compete with...Fiestas? Top cat. drivers would be interested in stepping into slower cars...driving Safai in them...?
The silliest and most expensive idea to "reduce" costs.

[Mirek]

How to figure out how Peugeot participation in WEC or DS in Formula E will bring more added value for PSA than Citroën would bring being in hybrid WRC?

The thing is that we can not assess it from our outer point of view. We can only see their decisions and from that logically deduce that they choose what they see as better investment for them.


I have not read the finacial report from PSA, but I am guessing they do not make as much money as planned. When planning ahead, they must cut where it is easy. Motorsport is a low hanging fruite. If the sport activity does not give the wanted effect, commercially or development wise, you cut the activity from the budget. It has happened before, and it will happen again.

There is a saying that you can never make money by saving. Motorsport is part of the marketing and marketing is extremely important for sales of the carmakers. From that point of view they leave motorsport only if its marketing value is not seen as justifying its cost.

[denkimi]

No, because in the end, those 0.x seconds that makes one faster than the other one, cost the same..., maybe even more, because of the limitations.
No, the first seconds are cheap, the last hundereds cost millions.

If you limit costs in the most important and expensive area's, the big teams will spend their money on other things. But those other things will have a smaller influence.
Thus, instead of 0.x seconds gain per million, we will go to 0.0x seconds per million.

The biggest budget will still get you the best car, but the differences will be smaller and thus more easily to overcome as driver.


That's not true. The automotive world is changing and the value of a purely combustion series is decreasing.
Yes, but that has nothing to do with how much a wrc title costs.

And i wouldn't really claim that the value of combustion engines is decreasing. In the eu some governments try to push a green agenda, but globally the combustion engine is there to remain of a few more decades.

[Allez Andruet]

VW made the statement long before the Dieselgate.
Just like Citroen made its commitment few years ago and things surely have changed since.



Finot reports to PSA brands CEO’s and he just said they won’t suspend the program. There’s no need to keep speculating about Citroen immediate pull out.
The CEOs report to PSA managing board and those are the guys who eventually run the show. So anything's still possible. Let's hope for the best.

[Mirek]

And i wouldn't really claim that the value of combustion engines is decreasing. In the eu some governments try to push a green agenda, but globally the combustion engine is there to remain of a few more decades.

WRC is mainly a European thing despite having some events outside Europe. All the teams are European based as well. Also the push against the combustion engines is not only a European thing. China, Japan, South Korea or some US states are pushing against them as well.

Also look what the current WRC manufacturers produce - Toyota is close to a synonym for hybrid and Hyundai is pushing a lot in this field as well. They spend billions on hybrids and EVs and absolutely need to sell them. We can't pretend it's not like that.

[RS]

Who's this then?

https://twitter.com/skodaautonews/status/1195347511927545856?s=19

[mknight]

No, the first seconds are cheap, the last hundereds cost millions.

If you limit costs in the most important and expensive area's, the big teams will spend their money on other things. But those other things will have a smaller influence.
Thus, instead of 0.x seconds gain per million, we will go to 0.0x seconds per million.

The biggest budget will still get you the best car, but the differences will be smaller and thus more easily to overcome as driver.



Exactly, this is the perfect explanation to those saying that "rules don't matter cause the team with most money always gets an advantage". (Btw. if teams can't spend more money on development in a meaningful way they start to spend them on drivers = Hyundai right now)

Anyway think you all should really move the offtopic to the other thread.

[mknight]

Who's this then?

https://twitter.com/skodaautonews/status/1195347511927545856?s=19

Huttunen next to the white car and O. Solberg next to the red car?

[jparker]

Is it possible that Ogier has told Citroen that he will not drive for them in an attempted to make them quit?

Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk

[RS]

Huttunen next to the white car and O. Solberg next to the red car?

White car guy definitely looks like Huttunen.. is Oliver quite small? Looks like the smaller guy is wearing a red cap which makes me think Qatar (Loubet)

[mknight]

White car guy definitely looks like Huttunen.. is Oliver quite small? Looks like the smaller guy is wearing a red cap which makes me think Qatar (Loubet)

Solberg is small, but Loubet sounds more likely yes. I haven't been able to find any picture where I could get a size comparison.

[Allez Andruet]

As much as I wish it would be Huttunen, I guess it's Tidemand (sincerely hoping I'm wrong).

e. if you zoom the picture the guy standing next to the red car is wearing a Red Bull cap.

[deephouse]

What about Rovanpera. What if he will do seaason in WRC2 in Skoda and part season with Yaris? Could it be?

[Mirek]

No

[spiderem]

No

Is it you N.O.T.?

[spiderem]

Who's this then?

https://twitter.com/skodaautonews/status/1195347511927545856?s=19

The guy on the white car has no neck, so tidemand.

[RS]

The guy on the white car has no neck, so tidemand.

Nah, i’m saying Huttunen.. he’s quite chunky too and the guy in the pic has darker hair than Tidemand too.

Besides I don’t think Skoda would go back to Tidemand when they could stick with Kopecky.

[BobJones]

My guess:

If Toyota can pay enough to get through the contract and pay Ogier, then it happens. No smoke without fire, they are taking.

If that happens, Citroen leave right now.

The only way they can keep Ogier is by committing more budget to R&D and a third car. Seb wants the big wage and the full support. So now discussions are happening to secure the funds. Ogier using a Toyota offer as bait.

Problem is, it couldn't come at a worse time within PSA politically. Bad move, a big risk.

If Citroen leave: Ogier, Evans, Rovanpera, Katsuta at Toyota

If Citroen stay: Same Citroen lineup, but with a third car Ostberg/Camilli, then Evans, Meeke, Rovanpera, Katsuta at Toyota.

[Tarmop]

Oliver has signed a three year deal with Skoda from what I have read elsewhere and Craig Breen has been offered a big cheque to drive for them aswell so thats my offering....

Interesting, a firm rumoured to exit (or reorganize to customer operations), with an excellent car, many clients wants to pay a big salary. Well. ok, development driver then. Probably similar deal from Hyundai also on the table, with a possibility of some WRC outings.

[mknight]

Oliver sure, but I find it a bit hard to believe they will be (very) interested in Breen. Then again it depends what you define as "big" cheque I guess.

As to their stay, it would make sense if they decided to go for the 2022 hybrid rules, starting development mid next year would fit.

[ggg377]

I'm reading every post in this thread with Colin Clark's voice recently.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Oliver has signed a three year deal with Skoda from what I have read elsewhere and Craig Breen has been offered a big cheque to drive for them aswell so thats my offering....

Pretty sure Breen will stick with Hyundai (R5) and wait his chance back in WRC with them when Loeb/Sordo retire.

[deephouse]

What do we have cooking for next year's seats?

Here's what's confirmed: Neuville and Loeb will continue at Hyundai, as well as Ogier and Lappi at Citroen. Everything else is in the open

Rumors:
- Tänak to continue at Toyota
- Rovanperä to go to Toyota (or M-Sport)
- Sordo to go to Toyota

What's your guess?

Well look how far this thing got and sttill ongoing :P

[meh]

I'm reading every post in this thread with Colin Clark's voice recently.

So, you are the biggest fan of every driver? :)

[AnttiL]

Considering the possible Ogier-Evans-Rovanperä lineup, they would all be Red Bull athletes already...

[deephouse]

Then we could expect the whole new livery on Toyotas

[Fast Eddie WRC]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EJWZuIVWkAAPhAY?format=jpg&name=small

[Got Mail]

Who's this then?

https://twitter.com/skodaautonews/status/1195347511927545856?s=19

Oliver Solberg and Aaron Johnston.

[AnttiL]

Oliver Solberg and Aaron Johnston.

Kalle and Jan?

[TypeR]

Can't be Oliver.. one has Red Bull cap and other is too big to be Oliver..
Although.. black&green Monster logo would be awesome with Skoda's white&green..

[the sniper]

Can't be Oliver.. one has Red Bull cap and other is too big to be Oliver..
Although.. black&green Monster logo would be awesome with Skoda's white&green..

http://www.rallyedesign.cz/thumb.php?src=files_web/photogallery/original/2063_Rhys_Yates_Skoda_Fabia_R5_Monster_Energy_Rall yedesign_01.jpg&height=403

[AnttiL]

https://www.rallit.fi/tommi-makinen-suhtautuu-epaillen-hyundain-mestaruuskikkaan-ajourallani-en-olisi-lahtenyt-sellaiseen/

Mäkinen says that he doesn't want to start rotating drivers, because it lowers their motivation when they don't have a chance to go for the drivers title.

[mknight]

https://www.rallit.fi/tommi-makinen-suhtautuu-epaillen-hyundain-mestaruuskikkaan-ajourallani-en-olisi-lahtenyt-sellaiseen/

Mäkinen says that he doesn't want to start rotating drivers, because it lowers their motivation when they don't have a chance to go for the drivers title.
The article lists that Ogier, Evans and Rovanpera joined as a fact, or is it just Google translate? Also says "joined alongside Meeke/Latvala."

[Allez Andruet]

The article lists that Ogier, Evans and Rovanpera joined as a fact, or is it just Google translate? Also says "joined alongside Meeke/Latvala."

Google translate. It says Ogier, Evans and Rovanperä have been linked to Toyota, for the places which Meeke and Latvala are also fighting for.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

It would help if posters of articles in other languages would clarify what they say. Reading in Googlish is so often confusing or plain wrong in many cases.

[AnttiL]

It would help if posters of articles in other languages would clarify what they say. Reading in Googlish is so often confusing or plain wrong in many cases.

When I post a Finnish article, I always translate only the important part of the article, which gives new information. Like in this case, the speculation of Ogier/Evans/Rovanperä going to Toyota and Meeke/Latvala being dropped was nothing new.

[dimviii]

https://twitter.com/AndreaKaiser/status/1196698287052664833

[Fredouye]

An announcement is supposed to be made tomorrow to Citroën staff : https://www.dhnet.be/sports/moteurs/wrc/wrc-ogier-citroen-toute-l-equipe-convoquee-pour-une-annonce-ce-mercredi-5dd42375f20d5a0c46cb18f8

[deephouse]

Could it be that he is retiring? Although she pushed him to do that

Am bit off topic, Sordo and MIKKELSEN are entering Monza rally show, that means that Andreas is still in the team.

[tomhlord]

An announcement is supposed to be made tomorrow to Citroën staff : https://www.dhnet.be/sports/moteurs/wrc/wrc-ogier-citroen-toute-l-equipe-convoquee-pour-une-annonce-ce-mercredi-5dd42375f20d5a0c46cb18f8

I fear the worst, but have my fingers crossed for good news!

When you look at Citroen last year, Ogier has done well considering and a big improvement. Sure, he wants to win the title, but to give up on a big project early is, I think, pretty lame. Plus, *that* tweet wasn't cool. If he goes to Toyota, I don't think it reflects well.

[TheFlyingTuga]

And I really don't think a move to Toyota would suit him very well. Somehow I cannot see Makinen having Seb running (or at least) trying to run the show in his team.

[rallyfiend]

Could it be that he is retiring? Although she pushed him to do that

Am bit off topic, Sordo and MIKKELSEN are entering Monza rally show, that means that Andreas is still in the team.

Well, he is until the 31st December and Thierry could’t be arsed to do it.

So why not send the lad who’s complaints mean nothing?

[T16]

I’m beginning to wonder if he might go back to Malcolm.

[deephouse]

I’m beginning to wonder if he might go back to Malcolm.

I doubt that, since Ogier want a companion who could actually deliver and back him up, and this year Lappi didn't quite do the job. And with Suninen? If Evans would still be there that would actually be the case.

[tomhlord]

https://twitter.com/TGR_WRC/status/1197061244370460672?s=19

Feel sorry for JML and Kris having to do this without the knowledge of a WRC future.

[AnttiL]

Lappi's test today was cancelled.

https://www.rallit.fi/citroenin-wrc-tiimista-lisaa-huolestuttavia-merkkeja-lapin-testi-peruttu/

[er88]

'#Shitroen' are gone aren't they? :(

[EstWRC]

I fear the worst, but have my fingers crossed for good news!

When you look at Citroen last year, Ogier has done well considering and a big improvement. Sure, he wants to win the title, but to give up on a big project early is, I think, pretty lame. Plus, *that* tweet wasn't cool. If he goes to Toyota, I don't think it reflects well.

Agreed.

I wonder if French fans will see him as a betrayer if it’s him leaving first of all and making with it Citroen to leave

[tomhlord]

Lappi's test today was cancelled.

https://www.rallit.fi/citroenin-wrc-tiimista-lisaa-huolestuttavia-merkkeja-lapin-testi-peruttu/

Not cool.

[Indreq]

Sad day for WRC. And if i were to look one person to blame, i would point to Mäkinen. It baffles me how he could not keep fastest driver in fastest car with such a budget as available for him. Maybe it is because his wifes management style, maybe because Märting demanded R5 program and that broke the deal, or maybe Mäkinen underestimated Tänaks options and overestimated his own position. Other chips just follow the first - Ogiers departure makes sense as surely in TGR he has bigger chances than in Citroen. Lets now keep fingers crossed that Evans stays in M-Sport, otherwise it will be 2 team series, instead of 2,5 team series.

[AnttiL]

Lets now keep fingers crossed that Evans stays in M-Sport, otherwise it will be 2 team series, instead of 2,5 team series.

To me Evans to Toyota is already confirmed as much as Kalle.

According to today's news/rumours, the teams are:

Hyundai: Tänak, Neuville, Sordo/Loeb
Toyota: Ogier, Evans, Rovanperä
M-Sport: Lappi, Suninen

[AMSS]

Sad day for WRC. And if i were to look one person to blame, i would point to Mäkinen. It baffles me how he could not keep fastest driver in fastest car with such a budget as available for him. Maybe it is because his wifes management style, maybe because Märting demanded R5 program and that broke the deal, or maybe Mäkinen underestimated Tänaks options and overestimated his own position. Other chips just follow the first - Ogiers departure makes sense as surely in TGR he has bigger chances than in Citroen. Lets now keep fingers crossed that Evans stays in M-Sport, otherwise it will be 2 team series, instead of 2,5 team series.

I would say Citroen can blame themselves, they failed to produce a winning car for whatever reason and this is the ultimate end result

[er88]

I would say Citroen can blame themselves, they failed to produce a winning car for whatever reason and this is the ultimate end resultYep. The team led by Matton fucked up badly with the designing and then development of the dog - and they've been playing catch up ever since.

[T16]

Ogier will be announced as a Toyota driver on Monday:

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/147264/citroen-quits-wrc-and-blames-ogier-exit

[tomhlord]

In a weird sort of way, Citroen has sacked Kris Meeke twice.

[EstWRC]

Craziest silly season ever!

This won’t be topped! Only if the news come that WRC as series is done and dusted for all

[er88]

In a way, Tanak has handed Ogier the title back already imo.

Seb will win the title in the most driveable car - which the Yaris is.

[EstWRC]

Really? 64 days before Monte Carlo we are already giving titles out?

[er88]

Really? 64 days before Monte Carlo we are already giving titles out?No need to get so defensive ;). Just my prediction, but if Ogier can get close in a C3 I can't look past him in a Yaris.

[AnttiL]

To me, the season won't look that much different next year. The drivers title will be fought between Ogier, Tänak and Neuville, and the manufacturers title between Toyota and Hyundai. Evans will likely be the best of the rest, after that it may look a bit different...

[Allez Andruet]

In a way, Tanak has handed Ogier the title back already imo.

Seb will win the title in the most driveable car - which the Yaris is.

There are still few rallies to go before the 2020 season is finished...

[Allez Andruet]

Evans will likely be the best of the rest

I'm gonna go with Fiesta-driving Lappi for that title. Oh how I wish it would happen.

[Allez Andruet]

Imagine if someone had said in Sep/Oct 2018 that the 2020 season will see Tänak and Loeb in Hyundai fighting against Ogier in Toyota... and that's just some 14 months ago.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Big shame to lose Citroen but cant blame Ogier for going to a better-funded team with the top WRC car.

It was a no-brainer once Hyundai took Tanak that Toyota had to get Ogier.

I just hope M-Sport now get a line-up to have some chance of wins against the two Asian giants.

[Bishop 12]

I blame ogier last year and he couldn't give something back to the wrc he only cares about himself could have stayed or went to m sport I think he could have won with Citroen now at least 2 driver's with no where else to go money money

[EstWRC]

No need to get so defensive ;). Just my prediction, but if Ogier can get close in a C3 I can't look past him in a Yaris.

not defensive.

Ogier is always one of the favourites for the title no matter what the car. But im gonna wait for some rallies first.

Take this season for example, he had 2 wins out of first 3 rounds with that so called undriveable Citroen, and at that moment it also seemed to me that he is gonna take the title again.

But we all know what happened after that.

[Thousandlakes]

For me todays news is huge disapointment. It means that next season we have 9-11 factory cars in one rally. Maybe some just 8.

Quantity over quality or I just remembering those early years 2000 when rally finland had 30 A8 category cars in starting line.

And only three men can win title next year honesly. Getting boring again. Hope hybrid era will bring new manufactures. There is so many good drivers without seat now. Looks like gap year is coming...

[AnttiL]

And only three men can win title next year honesly. Getting boring again.

Was it any different in 2018 or 2019 with four manufacturers? Is it worse than two-way battles? or an era where one team was miles ahead of the others?

[seb_sh]

Wow! The silliest silly season I can remember! Maybe matched by VW leaving. Can't blame Ogier. Citroen did a mess of it. It will be sad to have fewer cars and one less manufacturer, but it was good while it lasted.

[Crazy J]

Sad day for WRC. And if i were to look one person to blame, i would point to Mäkinen. It baffles me how he could not keep fastest driver in fastest car with such a budget as available for him. Maybe it is because his wifes management style, maybe because Märting demanded R5 program and that broke the deal, or maybe Mäkinen underestimated Tänaks options and overestimated his own position. Other chips just follow the first - Ogiers departure makes sense as surely in TGR he has bigger chances than in Citroen. Lets now keep fingers crossed that Evans stays in M-Sport, otherwise it will be 2 team series, instead of 2,5 team series.

So we will write to history books that toxic Mia ended the brightest era of WRC...

[Sulland]

Could be with one less manufacturer, the R5 field could be nice in 20!

[deephouse]

I personally don't care much about that shitty team. Sorry but it's true-from 2017 onwards I mean. Shame just that two or three seats are now permanently no more.

Some of memorable moments:
2017:
-building a crappy car
-unpredictably undriveable car
-lack of testing
-no budget (despite Abu Dhabi support)

2018:
-again unpredictably undriveable car
-no listening to driver feedbacks
-sacking Meeke
-no budget despite PSA didn't run any other official programme

2019:
-running only two cars
-maybe a little better now with car since Ogier drive it, but still dissappointment
-no budget despite the most rich sponsor in the whole rallying scene
-not chosing Ostberg despite his contribution to the team for a few years.
-not giving the same support to the Lappi
-leaving the field blaming all others than themselves.

With so many years of experience and so many titles they can all go in the corner and cry a little.

At the end I can say just thank you for your little show over the years. Without them it wouldn't be funny moments.

[Crazy J]

Hopefully M-Sport would take the drivers and manufactures championship in 2020, it somehow would feel right.

[EstWRC]

some guys on twitter and estonian forum are blaming Adamo and Tänak for this

yeah right, they were the ones who pulled Citroens plug out.

[Thousandlakes]

Was it any different in 2018 or 2019 with four manufacturers? Is it worse than two-way battles? or an era where one team was miles ahead of the others?

Nothing changed. Same old story. Just disappointed todays news as rally fan. Rally need also quantity. Lets say 5-6 manus and three car each team. Then all the best drivers are there. Just dreaming here. Maybe hybrid era is bring them!

[Crazy J]

Someone should call to John Elkann, at least he is motorsports fan. Maybe he could negotiate with Koreans restoring Loeb to Citroen to have a first class driver and start to chase the tenth title ;)

[deephouse]

There are rumours just for Subaru running alongside M-Sport. If that happens it doesn't changes anything except brand

[dimviii]

Esapekka Lappi Rally
@EsapekkaLappi
·
3h
I'm not going to lie, this is very bad news for me, for us and whole rally family. I feel sorry for the staff and the fans. But no can do.
Work has started to find other seat for next years.
Not much time but I have a good and strong team around me.

[mknight]

To me Evans to Toyota is already confirmed as much as Kalle.

According to today's news/rumours, the teams are:

Hyundai: Tänak, Neuville, Sordo/Loeb
Toyota: Ogier, Evans, Rovanperä
M-Sport: Lappi, Suninen

This is the current rumor situation yes.

For me this is also somewhat the worst case team setup.

Toyota could definitely have one more experienced driver and use Kalle as 4th car and they should if they want to be serious about manu champs.
Msport should have one experienced driver. Lappi isn't experienced in my eyes, as he has proven on multiple rallies this year. More of a "potential" winner. Ideally they would have both Lappi, Suninen and one more driver with Greensmith only for 4th car.

[steve.mandzij]

The worst part about this exodus is the lack of any privateers. During the 2000's and into this decade teams like Adapta, OMV, Munchis etc filled in the gaps left by the Manus and still have room for a bunch WRC cars on the stages. Now it's nearly impossible for privateers to join and they'll all end up going to R5.

[er88]

Kalle would make so much sense running in a pressure free 4th car, and Toyota could have kept Meeke/ Latvala or signed Mikkelsen etc, but the problem is Katsuta. He's Japanese and by all accounts will run in a 4th Yaris for most of the season, so Toyota running 5 cars is probably just too much of a stretch. (Unless fingers crossed, the Redbull millions could be put to additional good use).

[able1]

Someone should call to John Elkann, at least he is motorsports fan. Maybe he could negotiate with Koreans restoring Loeb to Citroen to have a first class driver and start to chase the tenth title ;)

Loeb is good , but not that good.

[AndyRAC]

The worst part about this exodus is the lack of any privateers. During the 2000's and into this decade teams like Adapta, OMV, Munchis etc filled in the gaps left by the Manus and still have room for a bunch WRC cars on the stages. Now it's nearly impossible for privateers to join and they'll all end up going to R5.

I think this was mentioned at the start of 2017; the cars were prohibitively expensive for Privateers. In fact, I seem to remember many comments back in the summer of 2016 that the new car regs weren't the panacea everybody hoped they would be.

To use paraphrase a British politician; 'it's boom and bust'

[EstWRC]

anyone? https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/147270/ogier-explains-decision-to-walk-away-from-citroen

i have reached my limit this month

[dimviii]

anyone? https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/147270/ogier-explains-decision-to-walk-away-from-citroen

i have reached my limit this month

Sebastien Ogier has spoken exclusively to Autosport to explain his decision to leave Citroen's World Rally Championship team with a year to run on his contract.

Citroen's cited Ogier's departure for Toyota - a deal expected to be announced next week - as the reason for its withdrawal from the WRC in an announcement made on Wednesday.

The six-time champion admitted he was surprised at the wording of Citroen's communication, but refused to comment on speculation that he first read the press release on the internet.

Ogier told Autosport: "Maybe communication hasn't always been the strongest point for Citroen..."

Citroen's exit - read for free
A sad end for a great team - and a huge blow to the WRC

He was also concerned about the message Citroen had sent to other competitors in the WRC, adding: "When they say there is no other drivers available, in this moment, I feel this is disrespectful for my colleagues in the sport."

Talking specifically about why he was leaving his second stint with Citroen early, Ogier said: "One of the main things which drove this decision was the rhythm of development on the car and the speed the car was progressing, which was not enough.

"Already this year, we could agree there wasn't enough development coming and we were down in performance against our competitors and it's not just me saying that - it's anybody who drove this car, I think, is feeling the same way."

Despite his departure and the nature of Citroen's announcement, Ogier said he had no regrets about returning to the team where he started his professional career.

"I was aware since I joined the team about the difficulty of this challenge and I was never afraid of this," he said.

"That's why, even today, I have absolutely no regrets to try this challenge, even if it failed."

[dimviii]

Boudar at autosport.


Citroen's World Rally Championship pullout announcement had been anticipated for a week, and its statement pointed strongly towards Sebastien Ogier's decision to leave as the cause.

But was it that simple? Citroen team principal Pierre Budar spoke exclusively to Autosport about the other factors behind the move.
Were the WRC calendar, its profile or the regulations elements in Citroen's decision?

For sure it's part of the problem. It's also very important for a brand like Citroen to make sure the situation of the championship is in-line with its marketing expectation.

When you see how much we need to push for the electrification of our brand and products and the marketing we need to push these cars on sales, it's really difficult for a brand like Citroen not to focus on this and if the sporting discipline cannot help it's a real problem.

Citroen's exit - read for free
A sad end for a great team - and a huge blow to the WRC

One of our main targets is to develop in international markets; India is a major project for the brand and there is nothing on this side possible for the motorsport, this is not very good. China is the same situation.

Yes, for sure, we are not very strong when we go to the CEO to explain what we could do for the marketing of the brand when we cannot give any answers on these items - which are major items today for our marketing department. It's part of the lack of our proposal.

You were active in hybrid WRC rules meetings until recently - when was this decision taken?

Of course we had several scenarios pondering for a while and it has been decided to relaunch Peugeot in WEC. We have already DS involved in Formula E and we couldn't get a third programme and have a good level of performance with three main programmes in the same organisation.

So when the decision has been made for Peugeot somewhere [in PSA] the decision has been made for Citroen not to be involved in the hybrid WRC in 2022.
Was there ever a chance, in your opinion, that Peugeot, for example, could enter the WRC instead of the WEC?

[That] could have been a scenario also. But it has been decided to go for WEC because this programme was more online with expectation on Peugeot's side. I don't want to comment on this choice by Peugeot - I'm not in a position to do so.
Were alternative drivers - such as Andreas Mikkelsen or Craig Breen - considered?

When you want to be involved in the championship and the fight for the title then you need one of the 'big three'. So, as far as you have tried your best to get one of them and you couldn't get them then you need to do a decision. That's what we have done.
Was Citroen competitive enough to keep Ogier happy?

I am quite sure we have made a lot of progress during the year and we had a lot of ongoing development that would have been ready for Monte Carlo, but this is the problem - of course from Sebastien's point of view it would have been better to have it before and we can agree with this, but it cannot be possible.

We lost the time at the beginning of the year, but that's why we should need two years for this project because the first one was for sure a bit complicated. I am quite convinced we would have started the season in a much better position than this year.

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/147267/why-citroen-is-quitting-wrc--the-team-boss-view

[Rallyper]

Well, this upcoming situation makes it possible for Malcolm to hire top drivers for cheap money, that´s for sure.

If he isn´t seeing the good in this situation he has lost his business abilities.

[er88]

Jeez the amount of excuses Citroen come up with is never ending. Just admit you weren't good enough and can't compete, and go.

They pushed for these regs - got them - yet still quit. The FIA cant magically put on a rally in China, it tried a few years ago but didn't work. You get the feeling nothing would ever be enough for Citroen, there would always be another excuse, another reason why they had to leave or arent happy. Or another reason why they arent winning.

No wonder it took them 1/2yrs to realise their own drivers weren't talking shite when they gave feedback on the C3s limitations, and where it needed improvements...

You don't sign Ogier and then expect him to be happy with a year of development, or a full year of no development in terms of the aero package. Ogier doesn't need to hang around for promises (or false promises) of 'wait a little longer, development is coming". Too late, you had a whole year and went backwards on tarmac from the previous year...

Ogier just didn't have faith in the team having spent a year with them, and you can't blame him can you?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Seems clear it suited both parties - Ogier wanted the chance of a better team/car for his final year and Citroen/PSA dont have the funding for 3 motorsport series.

And both can blame the other... #Shitroen ... #GOgier.

[mknight]

Well, this upcoming situation makes it possible for Malcolm to hire top drivers for cheap money, that´s for sure.

If he isn´t seeing the good in this situation he has lost his business abilities.

Good business doesn't necessarily mean good rally results.
Running a paying driver even if he is slower can be a better business than a faster but more expensive driver. Greensmith doing the rallies where Evans was injured instead of Paddon is a good example.

But for sure in the long run he needs to show that the car is competetive, so at least someone needs to have good speed/results.

[deephouse]

Man, this thing leave me with more questions than answers. If they pushed hybrid tech into the WRC and finally when it comes they decide to not be part of it. Like they want it right now, even if them who didn't develop current car fast enough for Ogier or others. Then blaming calendar, lacking of India and China. Blame organizers for that not wrc promoter. Then failing to get of of three top drivers and others not that important to even bother. They have got one of the bestest but failed to keep him. Even Neuville did slip through their fingers a few years ago.

I kinda knew from the start that Citroen would pull out and not develop new car. They were all over about costs even when they had Abu Dhabi support and still wine about that. I'm seriously worried about M-Sport too, except if Subaru really team up with them (I don't see Ford really get back).

[Fast Eddie WRC]

I dont fear for M-Sport so much now. They are in a great position to mop-up the best of the other driver's and do so without incurring big wages.

And any good results they do get will be seen as a great achievement by the underdogs.

[dimviii]

dont worry about Msport,they will be at wrc for ever

[deephouse]

It's not that, it's the development which could get high in the sky. Every new tech is more and more expensive. I have a feeling that this hybrid is 2x more expensive than normal power.

[dimviii]

It's not that, it's the development which could get high in the sky. Every new tech is more and more expensive. I have a feeling that this hybrid is 2x more expensive than normal power.

they can cope,dont worry.This is their job.

[er88]

dont worry about Msport,they will be at wrc for everTrue, but this is their chance to put together a strong team on the cheap with so many good drivers without a drive. So it would be really disappointing if they just settle on Suninen and Greensmith both with backing, and then don't sign one of Mikkelsen, Lappi, Meeke, Latvala, Paddon etc permanently. They could/should even sign two of those drivers to drive alongside Suninen - let Greensmith run a 4th car out of his own pocket if so.

[Rallyper]

True, but this is their chance to put together a strong team on the cheap with so many good drivers without a drive. So it would be really disappointing if they just settle on Suninen and Greensmith both with backing, and then don't sign one of Mikkelsen, Lappi, Meeke, Latvala, Paddon etc permanently. They could/should even sign two of those drivers to drive alongside Suninen - let Greensmith run a 4th car out of his own pocket if so.

Exactly my thoughts! +10.

[dimviii]

Esapekka Lapland Rally
@EsapekkaLappi

There's something in this thing.
And good things have already happened since the interview.
��
��

https://twitter.com/EsapekkaLappi/status/1197200057478590466

[rp]

Sad day for rallying and must be also the craziest Silly Season ever!

Hopefully there is after all some other drivers at M-Sport than Suninen, Greensmith & Loubet...

[dimviii]

Pierre, Citroën withdraws from the WRC, what is your feeling?
"We do not have a state of mind to have It must be assumed and face It is complicated, it is an announcement that touches the entire team with some people involved for more than 20 years in the WRC. It was a project over 2 years, we needed these 2 years to get a result.We knew that 2019 would be difficult: new drivers, new engineers on the car.The time to put everything in place, it has us delayed in the competition, we knew we needed a second year, we did not get there, it's the disappointment that prevails. "

This is not new: from Catalonia we mention the departure of Ogier. What have been your reports in recent weeks?
"We have discussions with Sébastien about his desires to leave us for some time, we tried to make arguments to him to stay with us, we talked about the developments available at Monte Carlo. other arguments elsewhere that have convinced him more. "

Ogier was under contract until the end of 2020, how did he get out of it?
"Actually, the contract was going until the end of 2020. There is a breach of contract, in which case we either go to court or find an amicable agreement. with Ogier. "

Have you considered an alternative solution and contacted Neuville?
"We want to fight for 1 title and for that we have to call on one of the 3 drivers likely to win, Neuville is one of them, we made contact with him, it would have been a mistake not to do it. a contract with a long-term project until the end of 2021. We could only offer him a one-year contract with no prospects since the group decided to engage in another discipline in 2022 (note: Peugeot has announced this week his involvement in WEC.) We were not very attractive to him. "

https://www.rtbf.be/sport/moteurs/rallye/wrc/detail_pierre-budar-oui-citroen-a-pris-contact-avec-neuville?id=10370420&fbclid=IwAR1_RuTIzLA9czjcrB2H2tzLG1faV2kVNwRiMgeJI JyRSZzSrVW96pjJnMg

[mknight]

The last part just perfectly contradicted the PR explanation that it's all because of Ogier. If they were commited for 2021 and new rules from 2022 Neuville would have been a real option.

[EstWRC]

so they contacted neuville, thats new for me.

[Tarmop]

Why, in such a small community, there is something cooking all the time.

[Allez Andruet]

Ogier was under contract until the end of 2020, how did he get out of it?
"Actually, the contract was going until the end of 2020. There is a breach of contract, in which case we either go to court or find an amicable agreement. with Ogier. "

Ok, it can be the translation but this sounds like the soap opera ain't over just yet.

[mknight]

There will be some kind of agreement with money being transferred in one or another direction, just like with Meeke. It's very unlikely much of it gets to the public. Unless Ogier's wife spills it out :D

[dimviii]

so Kaisers yesterday tweet about ''good news'' was citroens withdrawal?

[Fredouye]

Ok, it can be the translation but this sounds like the soap opera ain't over just yet.There's a second sentence ;)

"On a engagé des négociations et trouvé un accord avec Ogier."

Which could translate to

"We started negociating and found and agreement with Ogier"

[Katvala]

I would more so think it was towards Ogier leaving the team, but it surely does not look good on neither her, Ogier or Citroën and the French..

Sent from my F8331 using Tapatalk

[Fredouye]

so Kaisers yesterday tweet about ''good news'' was citroens withdrawal?I think it was about Sat.1 going on with DTM : https://twitter.com/AndreaKaiser/status/1197116229485572096?s=19

[dimviii]

I would more so think it was towards Ogier leaving the team, but it surely does not look good on neither her, Ogier or Citroën and the French..

Sent from my F8331 using Tapatalk

if this tweet was about citroen withdrawal,something isnt working at her head at all.
unacceptable tweet,specially for a person that works at media.

[Allez Andruet]

https://yle.fi/urheilu/3-11078326

Was this here already?

Lappi saying the announcement (which he received when Budar called him on Wednesday morning) was a shock. Even though the rumors were there, Lappi said he was told there wouldn't any issues to be worried about. Lappi goes on to say that rationally thinking there's only one possible seat available and that's at M-Sport (well that much we already knew, didn't we?). EP admits his season was "so weak" that he doesn't think he'll be at the top of M-Sport's wishlist though.

Some direct quotes:

The season ended just like it stared; the engine blew up in Monte, and the same happened in Catalunya. Eventually the whole thing blew up!

I'm very worried about my career, but at the moment I don't even know what to think. I need a day or two to clear my head.

Life anyway goes on. If I can't get a drive anywhere then I'll have more time to spend with the family and kids.

(regarding Budar's call) He wished me all the best and so did I for him. He's a nice person and it was a pleasure to work with him.

I guess there are no options but to contact M-Sport to find out if there's anything available. I'm working hard to get a seat.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

FIAERC.com
Chris Ingram, who won the 2019 FIA European Rally Championship* in a final-stage decider on Rally Hungary earlier this month, has been inducted into the Extreme E Drivers’ Programme.

The 25-year-old Briton was selected after he declared an interest in competing in the off-road racing series for electric SUVs, which also includes multiple FIA World Rally title winner Sébastien Ogier and double ERC3 champion Zoltán Bessenyey.

[mknight]

Wonder why Lappi doesn't consider Toyota an option. Only because of how they parted?

[EstWRC]

because its full already

[mknight]

because its full already

We don't know it but maybe he does.

Ogier, Evans and Rovanpera is not a full team in my eyes as it is not the best possible team for manu champ.

There are 3 options:
-Toyota think it's good enough team
- somebody else is already signed for the 3rd spot (Meeke, Latvala or Mikkelsen)
- Toyota is still deciding what to do but definitely don't want Lappi (or he doesn't want them)

[Tarmop]

This bridge might have been burnt yes.

[AnttiL]

Like someone said, Katsuta is the reason they won't run a fourth car - not that any team would have that kind of resources in the pocket. So what if Kalle makes mistakes in his first year, will he still be worse than Lappi this year?

[mknight]

Like someone said, Katsuta is the reason they won't run a fourth car - not that any team would have that kind of resources in the pocket. So what if Kalle makes mistakes in his first year, will he still be worse than Lappi this year?

The overall point result that Lappi "achieved" is hard to beat, especially since there will be only 6 manu point scoring cars, so just finishing brings 8 manu points.

Thing is that Ogier + Evans + Rovanpera team does not look like they stand a chance in manu champs vs Tanak, Neuville, Sordo/Loeb+Breen/Mikkelsen or even Latvala (for Sweden/Finland).

Toyoda's goal for both titles next year seemed dead serious, in my head that doesn't connect with Rovanpera in 3rd car.

[Allez Andruet]

Thing is that Ogier + Evans + Rovanpera team does not look like they stand a chance in manu champs vs Tanak, Neuville, Sordo/Loeb+Breen/Mikkelsen or even Latvala (for Sweden/Finland).

I dare to disagree.

[mknight]

I dare to disagree.

Very simplified maths:

Manu points from Tanak and Neuville this year: 219+179= 398 (18 more than Hyundai won the championship using 3 cars with)
Manu points from Ogier and Evans: 190+94= 284

Note that this calculation actually benefits both Ogier and Evans a lot cause with 2 car teams on most rallies they never lost points to their teammates. Sure it is likely Ogier will get slightly better results in Toyota and maybe Evans will too and Evans missed 3 rallies (with his average points it means 30 points), but 110 points is a huge difference.

Now moving on to "3rd" drivers you'd have Sordo/Loeb and one more for SWE/FIN with roadposition advantage on just about every rally vs Rovanpera. Doesn't look very promising.

Sure things might work out, but before the season I'd guess the team would want to maximize their chances and this is not a "learning year" like 2017. This is the year where they have to deliver, in the words of Toyoda himself.

[doubled1978]

The last part just perfectly contradicted the PR explanation that it's all because of Ogier. If they were commited for 2021 and new rules from 2022 Neuville would have been a real option.

I think it just confirms that they really did want to compete next year, but were only willing to spend the money if they felt they had a driver capable of winning....they knew they didn’t have much of a chance to get him (Neuville) but they tried anyway...
I’m sure they will make Ogier pay for breaking the contract tho, either through the courts or an out of court settlement....Toyota may well bankroll the compensation as part of the deal however.

[Allez Andruet]

Very simplified maths

I got your point, but it's not only about maths of what's happened before.

If we talk about team dynamics, there are risks in having both Neuville and Tänak in the same team. Are they both able to perform at the same level with the same consistency in 2020 as they did in 2019? Maybe, but it's far from being certain.

On the other hand, one could say that the trio of Ogier, Evans and Rovanperä looks to be quite well balanced when it comes to getting the most out of each individual team member. Seb we all know, with Evans having all the tools for being the perfect wingman for him. Kalle will sure do the occasional mistakes, but has huge potential that could be realized already in 2020 in certain rallies.

[BigWorm]

so Kaisers yesterday tweet about ''good news'' was citroens withdrawal?

Good news for her beloved husband.

For the sport though...

[Allez Andruet]

Good news for her beloved husband.

For the sport though...

Newsflash: she might also have her own career and there's a chance she's not solely living through the achievements of her husband.

[mknight]

On the other hand, one could say that the trio of Ogier, Evans and Rovanperä looks to be quite well balanced when it comes to getting the most out of each individual team member. Seb we all know, with Evans having all the tools for being the perfect wingman for him. Kalle will sure do the occasional mistakes, but has huge potential that could be realized already in 2020 in certain rallies.

That's where we disagree. Kalle at this point should learn the car and rallies in a fast car, not be expected to finish and get points. So you are definitely not getting the best out of him. His overall performance level in WRC over the course of a rally is a big enigma.

This line up would have looked somewhat ok last year and quite good in 2017, but not against the lineup that Hyundai bought.

[EstWRC]

gravel notes with Budar and Lappi https://www.spreaker.com/user/mpodcast/citroen-quit-wrc

[Allez Andruet]

Kalle at this point should learn the car and rallies in a fast car, not be expected to finish and get points. So you are definitely not getting the best out of him.

That exactly was the point, that there's no need to get the theoretical "best" out of him when you have Ogier and Evans in the team.

But anyway, we'll see how it goes...

[BigWorm]

Newsflash: she might also have her own career and there's a chance she's not solely living through the achievements of her husband.

Of course, she's a well known tv presenter for German TV.

Was having a go at the ironical timing of the tweet (and her antics at the rally in Catalunya)

[Rally Power]

FIAERC.com
Chris Ingram, who won the 2019 FIA European Rally Championship* in a final-stage decider on Rally Hungary earlier this month, has been inducted into the Extreme E Drivers’ Programme.

The 25-year-old Briton was selected after he declared an interest in competing in the off-road racing series for electric SUVs, which also includes multiple FIA World Rally title winner Sébastien Ogier and double ERC3 champion Zoltán Bessenyey.

They may be promoting it next year, but Extreme E will only start in 2021 with a handful of events that are looking to be a sort of TV reality show rather than proper racing. Apparently it fits on Ogier retirement plans...

Btw, it’s disgusting the way Todt and his friends from the politics are selling the industry to the electric lobby. It worth take a look on how Formula E was created: https://www.fiaformulae.com/en/news/2017/april/from-dream-to-reality-formula-e-was-born-in-paris/

Basically: the French midget and the then European Commission VP Tajani pushed Agag, a spanish smart ass that learned a few tricks with Briatore and got all sort of connections from his father-in-law (spain’s former PM Aznar) to start FE, which was destined to be a failure untill Dieselgate arrived…now they’re releasing this Extreme crap and they won’t rest ruining motorsport untill EV’s bubble burst (hopefully, sooner than later).

[Fast Eddie WRC]

If Ogier is interested in entering Extreme-E which starts in 2021 then it seems to confirm 2020 will be his last year in WRC.

Toyota (and rally fans) must hope wunderkid Rovanpera becomes the top pilot to replace him and be able to fight for the WDC.

[mknight]

Toyota (and rally fans) must hope wunderkid Rovanpera becomes the top pilot to replace him and be able to fight for the WDC.

I don't really fear for Toyota. I do fear for Rovanpera. The overhype might not be good for him.

This year everyone was expecting him to easily collect WRC2pro. then he crashed in all 3 first rallies and won it only with big help of extremely limited number of entrants and repeating C3 R5 problems. Leave him alone for a year or two, like Ogier when he started in Citroen. The kind of miracle start Loeb had is extremely rare.

[stefanvv]

Sooooo, Ogier leaves Citroen 2 times within 10 years, hmmmmm. Well different reason now anyway.

[jparker]

If Ogier is interested in entering Extreme-E which starts in 2021 then it seems to confirm 2020 will be his last year in WRC.

With Toyota in his hands, he may reconsider.

Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk

[RAS007]

Citroen was essentially a one driver team for almost a decade. What you are seeing now is in large part, due to that. Not entirely dissimilar to Mitsubishi in the mid/late 1990s, its just that this lasted a lot longer.

[RAS007]

Was it any different in 2018 or 2019 with four manufacturers? Maybe.


Is it worse than two-way battles? Nothing could be worse than that.


an era where one team was miles ahead of the others? No.

[denkimi]

Citroen was essentially a one driver team for almost a decade. What you are seeing now is in large part, due to that. Not entirely dissimilar to Mitsubishi in the mid/late 1990s, its just that this lasted a lot longer.
Citroen just screwed up their driver lineup since loeb retired.
They had golden talent ogier and chased him away. They had neuville and chased him away. They had meeke and fired him. They had the chance to hire ogier back in 2016 but didn't even bother.
They even chased away loeb after 20 years of loyal service.

There just seems to be nobody in that team with an eye for talent and a long term plan.

[mknight]

In mid 2018 when he was hired Lappi was clearly the most promising new driver in WRC.
It's just that 2019 has been a bit of a disaster for him. Especially the start.

[Rallyper]

In mid 2018 when he was hired Lappi was clearly the most promising new driver in WRC.
It's just that 2019 has been a bit of a disaster for him. Especially the start.

I should say most of the disasters for Lappi was the Citroen.

MSport should know that. Maybe Ostberg instead of Paddon in Ford should make them a good team. (Lappi, Latvala, Ostberg)

[AnttiL]

MSport should know that. Maybe Ostberg instead of Paddon in Ford should make them a good team. (Lappi, Latvala, Ostberg)

M-Sport does not operate solely in order "to have a good team". Hiring Ogier was an investment to win titles and it paid off. Those three wouldn't cut it.

[deephouse]

I believe they are aiming at having another "Evans", clearly they can't expect from anyone whoever end up with to win the titles, bit a few wins or podiums. Why not, just to showcase that the car is still competitive and for "free".

We have Mikkelsen, Latvala, Meeke, Lappi, Ostberg and Paddon available and one of them will be glad to except it for free, just to drive and stay sharp.

If the pressure will now fall to Suninen, who knows maybe he could deliver, but I'm more sure that he will not since he is not that good at setup the car and needs a "mentor".

We will see. I just hope that Greensmith won't "steal" a precious permanent second seat. I would degredate him to lower class to find extra experience.

[T16]

Assuming Ogier is Toyota bound and money doesn't come into it, who should M-Sport choose to partner Suninen in 2020?

I can't decide, from the long list of availables, who's best.

[AnttiL]

Assuming Ogier is Toyota bound and money doesn't come into it, who should M-Sport choose to partner Suninen in 2020?

I can't decide, from the long list of availables, who's best.

The point score of 2019 says Mikkelsen.

[OHL]

If it was me making the decision, it would be Lappi.
In my opinion, he has the most potential and is the youngest with the longest possible career ahead of him.
Meeke, Ostberg, Mikkelsen, Latvala and Paddon have been in the game a long time and are known quantities now. Lappi is still a bit of a mystery but there have been some good glimpses of his potential.

[er88]

Assuming Ogier is Toyota bound and money doesn't come into it, who should M-Sport choose to partner Suninen in 2020?

I can't decide, from the long list of availables, who's best.As long as they sign at least one (hopefully two) of; Mikkelsen, Meeke, Latvala, Lappi, Paddon etc then I don't care who it is lol

Lappi probably makes most sense for a team like Msport though (youngest and could make them money in the future if he fulfills his potential).

[GigiGalliNo1]

Question is, which drivers will be that arrogant enough to not "not" want to pay to have a seat at M-Sport?

[denkimi]

Assuming Ogier is Toyota bound and money doesn't come into it, who should M-Sport choose to partner Suninen in 2020?

I can't decide, from the long list of availables, who's best.
Greensmith, gryazin, Loubet, ...

Whoever might seem good enough to make Malcolm some profit later but has the money now to not make him lose too much.

[TypeR]

Gryazin is fast, but should try to keep the car on road more.. Crashing WRC is way more expensive than R5's..

[er88]

Question is, which drivers will be that arrogant enough to not "not" want to pay to have a seat at M-Sport?Fact is most can't pay for a full season - £200 000 an event or something like that?

After all these years Jari is rich enough to be able to finance events out of his own pocket, but does he want to do more than 1/2 events that way?

Mikkelsen used to be the rich kid who had it all, but his daddies money dried up ages ago, and he had to come back to the WRC the long way and with a management team behind him.

Msport should be able to run at least one more driver without demanding money, to replace Evans

[Allez Andruet]

After all these years Jari is rich enough to be able to finance events out of his own pocket, but does he want to do more than 1/2 events that way?

I don't think Latvala's too keen on spending his hard-earned money on financing some WRC events, especially as there seems to be quite little to gain. And Jouhki most likely is not willing to do it either.

[AnttiL]

I don't think Latvala's too keen on spending his hard-earned money on financing some WRC events, especially as there seems to be quite little to gain. And Jouhki most likely is not willing to do it either.

Exactly. But I doubt anyone will drive out from own pocket, it would be financed by sponsors. Someone like Latvala has so much of PR value that it should be relativel easy for him or Jouhki to get some sponsors. It's a different thing whether they have too much pride to do it that way again.

[spiderem]

As much as I tend to agree with people saying that kale should have a year of "4th car" with no pressure to learn, on the other hand he also now has the opportunity to do a full season beside Ogier, under pressure. I think that is a good learning option too.
Tanak is the first one to say that his season beside Ogier was extremely valuable.

[Sulland]

Fact is most can't pay for a full season - £200 000 an event or something like that?

After all these years Jari is rich enough to be able to finance events out of his own pocket, but does he want to do more than 1/2 events that way?

Mikkelsen used to be the rich kid who had it all, but his daddies money dried up ages ago, and he had to come back to the WRC the long way and with a management team behind him.

Msport should be able to run at least one more driver without demanding money, to replace Evans

Dont think the money of papa Mikkelsen dried up, but Andreas was told to start learning standing on his own in the bussiness world.

[mknight]

If Toyota does not get anyone else than Ogier, Evans and Rovanpera and if MSport only aims for one drvier besides Suninen and Greensmith it's really the worst case scenario for driver seats.

In that case I think it's between Mikkelsen and Lappi with Latvala a bit distant third option.

Mikkelsen is a known stable fast driver (compared to all others left) with still some future potential. He is 2 years younger than Tanak (at this point in 2017 Tanak only won 2 rallies for example), 4 years younger than Latvala, 1,5 year younger than Evans (with about same number of starts with WRC car) and only 1,5 year older than Lappi.

Lappi has much fewer WRC starts so he can be seen as having more potential for the future. On the other hand he has been quite unstable both in Citroen and also most of 2018 with Toyota. A big potential issue might be his management who doesn't want to "pay", so Malcolms business model might be an issue.

Altogether it's not an easy pick between these two and many details that we might never know about can decide the outcome.

Latvala is a distant third cause he is not stable and lately fast only on very few rallies. Since he is the driver with most starts in WRC ever and also older than others his potential for future development is pretty much exhausted. A big pluss might be Joukhis long business relationship with Malcolm though. In case MSport gets two new drivers it's quite likely Latvala might be one of them.



The others are imo out of the picture:

Breen and Paddon were free last year with much better recent record than this year and were seemingly completely ignored by MSport. Paddon has started at least 2 Hyundai-related projects in NZ so I don't see him suddenly leaving to drive for free at MSport. Breen is very likely to be offered WRC2 season at Hyundai.

Meeke is 10 and 11 years older than Mikkelsen and Lappi with basically no future potential and has been ignored by Malcolm multiple times before. Furthermore his crashing/car damage tendency would just not work at MSport that want to earn money.

[pantealex]

Many of you are ready to accept Greensmith as 3rd driver but not Kalle as 3rd driver.

Weird!

2017 Lappi was 3rd TGR driver without any WRC-car starts before that, do you think Kalle is much slower than Lappi was in 2017 ?

[Norm75]

Many of you are ready to accept Greensmith as 3rd driver but not Kalle as 3rd driver.

Weird!

2017 Lappi was 3rd TGR driver without any WRC-car starts before that, do you think Kalle is much slower than Lappi was in 2017 ?
It's a different business model, m-sport are more geared at making money, Toyota don't need their rally program to make money, they just want titles. 2017 was a year when they weren't expected to perform, so less pressure in running a young driver without previous top category experience, but to answer your question, no I don't believe Kalle will be much slower than Lappi was in 2017.

[er88]

Many of you are ready to accept Greensmith as 3rd driver but not Kalle as 3rd driver.

Weird!

2017 Lappi was 3rd TGR driver without any WRC-car starts before that, do you think Kalle is much slower than Lappi was in 2017 ?According to Makinen Kalle was faster than Lappi back in 2016 - when they both tested the Yaris :D!!

However that's not the point really, people are just accepting Greensmith will be in one of the 2 or 3 msport cars because he is paying for it. Plus, Msport aren't fighting for anything.

Toyota on the other hand will be fighting for both titles (or will be trying to).

I don't think anyone is trying to knock Kalle by saying running him in a 4th car would be better for him and Toyota next season. He's a super talent but will still be raw and learning from mistakes

[mknight]

Many of you are ready to accept Greensmith as 3rd driver but not Kalle as 3rd driver.

Weird!

2017 Lappi was 3rd TGR driver without any WRC-car starts before that, do you think Kalle is much slower than Lappi was in 2017 ?

Greensmith is paying (and is not without any talent) and Msport is a business, thats the reality and while we might not like it we can't really change it. This year it was shown clearly by Msport choosing Greensmith over other potential drivers in Finland and Germany.

2017 was "learning year" for Tommi when they only had to show some potential and improvement for the Toyota bosses to be satisfied. Furthermore there were no drivers available until very late after VW left and nobody could be sure how fast Toyota was. (Ogier turned them down)

Now Toyota is one of the two fastest cars, maybe even the fastest, and just got tasked by Toyoda to win both championships. Relying on an 18 year old that never drove a WRC to do that seems rather risky.

[mknight]

no I don't believe Kalle will be much slower than Lappi was in 2017.

Thing is if you take Lappi's results and form from 2017 as a rule it would place him as last WRC this year. Lappi had great start with 4th in Italy and then winning Finland after Latvala's ECU issues and multiple crashes from other top runners. After that reality settled in and he was way behind and making mistakes rest of the season.

[deephouse]

Lappi didn't even drive the whole season back then in 2017. Kale will if he will be 3rd driver (Makinen don't want to share cars). Toyota didn't expect something big back then. They had one fast and experienced driver, one test guy and a learning boy. After few good results they lift their goals and sign promising Tanak and straight away lift their goals even higher after winning manufacturer title in their second year and driver title in their 3rd. Now it's quite pressure there to instant deliver results, so Kale will be under pressure and not trying to drive his own race to gain experience. What if one or two of other guys hit the trouble. I mean whatever as long as Katsuta don't get permanent seat instead of bunch of available guys.

[Allez Andruet]

https://www.hs.fi/urheilu/art-2000006316294.html

Ari Pusa, long-time Finnish journalist and author of the now postponed Mäkinen autobiography, writes that according to his sources Lappi is indeed on his way to M-Sport for 2020.

The story also claims that Toyota actually exercised the buy-out clause in Ogier's contract.

[mknight]

It also says that Citroen will continue paying Lappi's salary at MSport. In that case it's quite easy to choose him for MSport considering their business model.

So the remaining questions would be
- will Toyota get some other experiened driver as 3rd car while Rovanpera drives 4th
- will MSport get some other driver than Greensmith (and possibly run Greensmith on a few rallies on his own budget)

[EstWRC]

this had to be done (not mine)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EJ6iNQDXYAEIpyJ?format=jpg&name=900x900

[AnttiL]

https://www.hs.fi/urheilu/art-2000006316294.html

Ari Pusa, long-time Finnish journalist and author of the now postponed Mäkinen autobiography, writes that according to his sources Lappi is indeed on his way to M-Sport for 2020.

The story also claims that Toyota actually exercised the buy-out clause in Ogier's contract.

Quite many errors in the article.

- Citroen should pay fine for quitting WRC before 2022 (Timo Rautiainen just said in another interview that you only need to commit to one year at a time)
- Lorenzo Bertelli looking for a factory seat (he has his own car)
- WRC2 could be the main class in 2022 (hybrid rules have been agreed)
- ERC is attractive to private manufacturers (what are these?)

[Allez Andruet]

Quite many errors in the article.

- Citroen should pay fine for quitting WRC before 2022 (Timo Rautiainen just said in another interview that you only need to commit to one year at a time)
- Lorenzo Bertelli looking for a factory seat (he has his own car)
- WRC2 could be the main class in 2022 (hybrid rules have been agreed)
- ERC is attractive to private manufacturers (what are these?)

Yep, I noticed the same. Rautiainen didn't sound like he was 100% sure about the "quitting penalty" though.

[Allez Andruet]

https://www.iltalehti.fi/ralli/a/f5182a49-2a31-4178-8164-97df930b4844

The latest from Don Timo Jouhki. To quote a former Finnish rally driver, there's "nothing special", but anyway. It's not really a surprise that Jouhki says that for Latvala "things don't look that good". Jouhki doubts Lappi would just walk in to M-Sport like that, but then again it's not actually any of his business. Jouhki believes that Meeke "won't do anything (in 2020)" and Breen will continue with Hyundai (few rallies with WRC + R5 development).

I think the most interesting part was that according to Jouhki "it's quite obvious it's either Jari-Matti or Meeke, who does not get anything from Toyota - atleast more than few rallies". Could it be that there's still room in the occasional fourth car in rallies Katsuta doesn't do?

[deephouse]

They could keep both of them, share third car, Kale and Katsuta share 4th. Simple.

[EstWRC]

its Kalle* man


Kale is this dude

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0276/5253/products/DSC01987_edit_cropped_for_website.jpg?v=1512322042

[reff92]

https://www.iltalehti.fi/ralli/a/f5182a49-2a31-4178-8164-97df930b4844

The latest from Don Timo Jouhki. To quote a former Finnish rally driver, there's "nothing special", but anyway. It's not really a surprise that Jouhki says that for Latvala "things don't look that good". Jouhki doubts Lappi would just walk in to M-Sport like that, but then again it's not actually any of his business. Jouhki believes that Meeke "won't do anything (in 2020)" and Breen will continue with Hyundai (few rallies with WRC + R5 development).

I think the most interesting part was that according to Jouhki "it's quite obvious it's either Jari-Matti or Meeke, who does not get anything from Toyota - atleast more than few rallies". Could it be that there's still room in the occasional fourth car in rallies Katsuta doesn't do?
Yeah - you finns are specialy motivated to produce articles from nothing. Only down side is that all those interview are with Jouki who is like some yellowpage ***********. Just producing sh*t to read

Yeah he is manager of some finns but when you read some half year interviews with him you find that mostly he says nothing or those facs what he is presented are silents by team managers.


Sorry when i hurt some finns feelings but its insain what is coming from your press.No quality at all just toughts but mostly not even that.

[Sulland]

MSport has a good car, that can be a winner.

They need two good drivers.
In todays market I would have gone for Lappi and Mikkelsen.
Both potential winners in the right car.
Lappi has in 2019 driven the turkey.
Mikkelsen has driven a car he has never "felt as one" in.

Both has a lot to prove, and will make a good team imo!

[Allez Andruet]

Yeah - you finns are specialy motivated to produce articles from nothing. Only down side is that all those interview are with Jouki who is like some yellowpage ***********. Just producing sh*t to read

Yeah he is manager of some finns but when you read some half year interviews with him you find that mostly he says nothing

Yeah, if you expect him to reveal the unannounced deals in the media, then don't bother reading.


No quality at all just toughts but mostly not even that.

Just a reminder that we got these masterpieces yesterday:
https://yle.fi/urheilu/3-11077330
https://yle.fi/urheilu/3-11077680

[reff92]

MSport has a good car, that can be a winner.

They need two good drivers.
In todays market I would have gone for Lappi and Mikkelsen.
Both potential winners in the right car.
Lappi has in 2019 driven the turkey.
Mikkelsen has driven a car he has never "felt as one" in.

Both has a lot to prove, and will make a good team imo!

Why we are not considering Ostberg to Msport. He is drived with fiesta that is definetly a plus.

Msport with Breen,Ostberg and Suninen is not so bad team afterall. Fiesta as we know is fast and very reliable.

[cali]

Yeah - you finns are specialy motivated to produce articles from nothing. Only down side is that all those interview are with Jouki who is like some yellowpage ***********. Just producing sh*t to read

Yeah he is manager of some finns but when you read some half year interviews with him you find that mostly he says nothing or those facs what he is presented are silents by team managers.


Sorry when i hurt some finns feelings but its insain what is coming from your press.No quality at all just toughts but mostly not even that.I can honestly say that our press is shite as well

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk

[pantealex]

to: Reff92

True.
Us Finns are silent people.

But people are also sharing news from Spanish, Italian etc. media that have "info" for TGR.
How could they know better ?

[reff92]

True.
Us Finns are silent people.

But people are also sharing news from Spanish, Italian etc. media that have "info" for TGR.
How could they know better ?

I get some examples with Joukis failures over this half year.

[pantealex]

I get some examples with Joukis failures over this half year.

I´m not defending Jouhki. He is what he is. Pushing his own drivers.

[reff92]

Some Joukis best quotes where his own interest is very visible:
https://sport.delfi.ee/news/auto/wrc/wrc-supermanedzer-jouhki-tanak-oleks-rumal-kui-ta-toyotasse-ei-jaaks?id=87086125


Basicaly he says: Tänak would be stupid when he leaves Toyota. And there is no place anymore with kris meeke(this was in august) and latvala still has a chance.

When we take the facts then Tänak is not very stupid when choosing the team what is proven to deliver a reliable car with better management. And there is no real level diffrence with meeke and latvala - both of them is mastered crashing.

There was some article where he talked about r5 business.... - just insain.

Why Tänak leaved is: poor teammates. Tommi failed to hired Sordo. Very unreliable car. failure of parts what was all knowd from last year(rimms and alternator). preventive maintenance was limping two feets(steering rack and ecu)

Those facts - Those we need to hear not some old man talk that Latvala is man of the moment and Rovanperä is next champ.

Ok lets and this bullshit and get some real info?

[KiwiWRCfan]

Lappi has in 2019 driven the turkey.


Said turkey finished P1 and P2 in Turkey

[AnttiL]

Tommi failed to hired Sordo.

I believe he never even tried, but the Spanish media made a thing out of it (again local media wanted to make a big story about local driver)

[Rallyper]

I believe Jouhki knows much more than he says. Why would he tell media when he has interests in drivers?

But if you guys think he hasn´t talks with most of the people involved in WRC and he also has ears, you´re definately wrong. So he knows plenty, but says only what suits best to media if he says anything at all...

[AnttiL]

https://www.rallit.fi/ott-tanak-kommentoi-citroenin-lahtoa-mm-sarjasta-fian-ja-promoottorin-on-katsottava-peiliin/

Apparently Tänak made his decision to leave Toyota after Wales, having see how much Hyundai had progressed.

[Tarmop]

That he said pretty much after the deal went public. And well, they certainly have progressed a lot...

[mknight]

That he said pretty much after the deal went public. And well, they certainly have progressed a lot...

Question how much of the apparent progress was due to Toyota getting slower with smaller wing. Compared to Citroen and especially Evans in Ford they didn't seem much faster. (Evans was the fastest WRC both on Saturday and Sunday when Tänak and Neuville were fighting for every second).

In the end the reason shouldn't matter for Tanak as long as Hyundai and Toyota have similar speed.

[meh]

Question how much of the apparent progress was due to Toyota getting slower with smaller wing. Compared to Citroen and especially Evans in Ford they didn't seem much faster. (Evans was the fastest WRC both on Saturday and Sunday when Tänak and Neuville were fighting for every second).

In the end the reason shouldn't matter for Tanak as long as Hyundai and Toyota have similar speed.

with no help from starting position?

[EstWRC]

it seems you guys havent read this https://www.wrcwings.tech/2019/11/18/stage-results-confirm-effectiveness-of-wrc-hyundai-and-toyota-2019-aero-modifications/

this is one of the best blogs and everyone should have it in their bookmarks.

[RS]

Who's this then?

https://twitter.com/skodaautonews/status/1195347511927545856?s=19

Oh, one of them was Kalle.. i thought they were teasing us.

https://twitter.com/skodaautonews/status/1198175794071298049?s=19

[kiil]

Why we are not considering Ostberg to Msport. He is drived with fiesta that is definetly a plus.

Msport with Breen,Ostberg and Suninen is not so bad team afterall. Fiesta as we know is fast and very reliable.

Mads is a very likeable guy, consistent and somewhat fast, but he will never be winner material. 117 WRC starts in a WRC car, and only 1 win, that was not really a win. Why would Msport consider Mads over the obvious ones like Latvala, Lappi and Mikkelsen for instance?

[Portimao]

Cause Mads can easily bring budget.