Silly Season 2020

[trykmann]

From Adamo's point of view, I would push Neuville to n2 position. He has been driving with Hyundai since 2014 and was second in 2016, 2017 and 2018(this season is still ongoing). He has had the opportunity to win, but hasn't managed to do it. How long can you wait for it to happen?

[mknight]

Toyota can hire Mikkelsen, Breen etc. Why would they keep either Latvala or Meeke who are both accident prone

For Toyota I mentioned on Friday that there is a huge span of options in addition to Katsuta+Rovanpera.
From "complete makover" with Ogier, Evans and Mikkelsen to "staying the same" with Meeke, Latvala and Katsuta+Rovanpera only.

Seems quite hard for me to predict which way they go. Didn't except they'd kick Lappi either.

[ggg377]

For Toyota I mentioned on Friday that there is a huge span of options in addition to Katsuta+Rovanpera.
From "complete makover" with Ogier, Evans and Mikkelsen to "staying the same" with Meeke, Latvala and Katsuta+Rovanpera only.

Seems quite hard for me to predict which way they go. Didn't except they'd kick Lappi either.

As a Tänak/Toyota fan I expected Meeke and Latvala to hand it to the Hyundais in Catalonia, because they had no other option considering the state of Toyota's team points (and Tänak's championship), but it turned out to be the opposite. The truth of the matter is there are currently 3 top drivers in WRC - Tänak, Neuville and Ogier with the rest lagging behind quite significantly in the bigger picture. Just look at the rally wins this year, the only driver who scored a win outside of this trio was Sordo in Italy and Sordo has already signed with Hyundai. If Toyota want to stay relevant they need one of the big 3, period.

[steve.mandzij]

As a Tänak/Toyota fan I expected Meeke and Latvala to hand it to the Hyundais in Catalonia, because they had no other option considering the state of Toyota's team points (and Tänak's championship), but it turned out to be the opposite. The truth of the matter is there are currently 3 top drivers in WRC - Tänak, Neuville and Ogier with the rest lagging behind quite significantly in the bigger picture. Just look at the rally wins this year, the only driver who scored a win outside of this trio was Sordo in Italy and Sordo has already signed with Hyundai. If Toyota want to stay relevant they need one of the big 3, period.Latvala is in a mega slump right now but I trust he's still quick, just suffering from a bunch of different kinds of pressure. If Tanak leaves Toyota and Latvala remains I can see him turning development back towards what he prefers and resurging again. He's done it before, so it's not out of the question.

[skarderud]

Some thoughts

A couple of years ago, Ott Tänak was finished, and nowone even think he could be WDC in 2019.
We know that the feeling with the car, and the cooperation with the team is crucial to get the last % of the driver and car.
Like Mikkelsen in Hyundai, as Loeb has shown, that car not suits everyone, he really should got another car, he did much better in polo and citröen , now he are good, but not magic.
The same to Lappi, he was better in Toyota than in citröen.

Who of the existing drivers could be the "next" Tänak if they got another car and the oportunity?
Todays drivers are insane good, it is just details that makes the difference, i think.

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[ggg377]

Latvala is in a mega slump right now but I trust he's still quick, just suffering from a bunch of different kinds of pressure. If Tanak leaves Toyota and Latvala remains I can see him turning development back towards what he prefers and resurging again. He's done it before, so it's not out of the question.

Fair enough. The fact of the matter is there are currently more talented drivers than there are cars - Evans, Ostberg, Breen and Mikkelsen being the most notable drivers without a 2020 contract. I still have my doubts whether any of them could deliver for Toyota all season and fight for the titles. Wilson even said recently that he's not interested in letting Suninen and Evans go. Realistically if Toyota lose Tänak they will probably keep Latvala and Meeke with Katsuta and Rovanperä rotating the third car. That is fine, but given the past seasons I still doubt it could bring the points needed for titles.

[Allez Andruet]

Didn't except they'd kick Lappi either.

Actually they didn't. That was Lappi's call to leave the team.

[mknight]

Fair enough. The fact of the matter is there are currently more talented drivers than there are cars - Evans, Ostberg, Breen and Mikkelsen being the most notable drivers without a 2020 contract. I still have my doubts whether any of them could deliver for Toyota all season and fight for the titles. Wilson even said recently that he's not interested in letting Suninen and Evans go. Realistically if Toyota lose Tänak they will probably keep Latvala and Meeke with Katsuta and Rovanperä rotating the third car. That is fine, but given the past seasons I still doubt it could bring the points needed for titles.

Whether any of the other drivers than Latvala and Meeke could fight for driver title is highly doubtful given latest results. But given this years results both Evans and Mikkelsen would be better for manu title. They both have more points than either Toyota driver with 3 less rallies driven and they both have more or as many podiums.

[ggg377]

https://news.err.ee/996512/video-rally-legend-and-toyota-manager-tommi-makinen-s-tanak-faith-rewarded

Reporter to Mäkinen: "Will you continue together [with Tänak]"?
Mäkinen: "I hope so"

Either he is not aware of the Hyundai/Tänak signing or there are still some loose ends. Since Tänak said he expects the contract to be announce tomorrow or the day after tomorrow I expect it to be signed already, but we'll just have to wait and see.

[ggg377]

Whether any of the other drivers than Latvala and Meeke could fight for driver title is highly doubtful given latest results. But given this years results both Evans and Mikkelsen would be better for manu title. They both have more points than either Toyota driver with 3 less rallies driven and they both have more or as many podiums.

I totally agree. In my opinion Evans is the most obvious challenger to the current top 3 drivers and Mikkelsen has been underrated for so long. Mikkelsen is still sitting at the #4 position in the driver's championship and he hasn't even done every rally unlike many who are behind him. He has delivered Hyundai a lot of team points, which allow their current comfortable lead in the constructor's championship. And yet he keeps getting flack, perhaps more than any other driver. Toyota with Tänak/Mikkelsen or Tänak/Evans would be a devilish combo, but one can dream.

[mknight]

The post even press conf is on RACC website:
http://www.rallyracc.com/2019/en/nota.html?id=nota14#en

The only mention is this:

Q:
Thierry, congratulations on winning here in Spain. You know that you had to win to try and keep the Drivers’ title hopes alive. The Drivers’ title has gone and the Manufacturers’ title remains? How are you feeling?
TN:
Yes, first of all I would like to say congratulations to our two new World Champions. Obviously we have been fighting all year and Ott and Martin have been very strong, so congratulations to them on their first title. It will not be so easy for them next year…

[Tarmop]

That is something all would say, promising to fight back...

[mknight]

That is something all would say, promising to fight back...

Yes and no. When asked about getting Tanak as teammate earlier during the weekend Neuville said he would prefer it cause he has "always been faster than his teammates" no matter who they were.

[steve.mandzij]

I totally agree. In my opinion Evans is the most obvious challenger to the current top 3 drivers and Mikkelsen has been underrated for so long. Mikkelsen is still sitting at the #4 position in the driver's championship and he hasn't even done every rally unlike many who are behind him. He has delivered Hyundai a lot of team points, which allow their current comfortable lead in the constructor's championship. And yet he keeps getting flack, perhaps more than any other driver. Toyota with Tänak/Mikkelsen or Tänak/Evans would be a devilish combo, but one can dream.Evans is very good but rather inconsistent, and while at times he's pulled out incredible performances he's not been able to maintain them for too long. Best of the rest for me, no doubt, is Sordo this year, then maybe Evans and even then I'd consider it a toss up between Loeb and Mikkelsen. The rest are horribly inconsistent.



Yes and no. When asked about getting Tanak as teammate earlier during the weekend Neuville said he would prefer it cause he has "always been faster than his teammates" no matter who they were.

And not only that, but bar Sordo who's been exceptionally quick this year all of Neuville's teammates have, at one point or another, struggled with setup for the i20. If Tanak does indeed go to Hyundai there's no guarantee he'll do as well as he's doing now in a car made specifically for him.

[Oraamat]

Dont forget that Toyota wasnt made for Tänak and he had pace from the beginning of the first event with it.

[cali]

Evans is very good but rather inconsistent, and while at times he's pulled out incredible performances he's not been able to maintain them for too long. Best of the rest for me, no doubt, is Sordo this year, then maybe Evans and even then I'd consider it a toss up between Loeb and Mikkelsen. The rest are horribly inconsistent.




And not only that, but bar Sordo who's been exceptionally quick this year all of Neuville's teammates have, at one point or another, struggled with setup for the i20. If Tanak does indeed go to Hyundai there's no guarantee he'll do as well as he's doing now in a car made specifically for him.As long as they let him setup and work with the car I do not see a problem. Same story applied to Toyota and he was fast right out of box beating his teammates. I do not see this as a problem, rather than then the atmosphere in the team with Neuville could be poisonous.

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[dimviii]

so at some hours we will have the answer.

Quoted at Hyundai next year, Tänak has not cut short rumors. "All possibilities are open, I hope to make a decision for next season on Monday or Tuesday."

https://www.rtbf.be/sport/moteurs/rallye/wrc/detail_tanak-soulage-la-pression-m-a-joue-des-tours-je-realise-un-reve?id=10352231

[mknight]

Best of the rest for me, no doubt, is Sordo this year, then maybe Evans and even then I'd consider it a toss up between Loeb and Mikkelsen. The rest are horribly inconsistent.


Sordo has (just like last year) only driven rallies that suit him, always with road position advantage on gravel. But yes he was consistent on those, much better than last year where he crashed twice.

Anyway I find it really strange that you consider Loeb "consistent" with Hyundai. From 6 starts he only scored manu points in 2 rallies and took a single podium. His tarmac results were terrible, just like his speed in Sweden and in Portugal he even crashed out with nothing to push for after a weekend with no pace. Compared to the 3 starts with C3 in 2018 I'd consider his 2019 season a disaster.

[mknight]

so at some hours we will have the answer.

Quoted at Hyundai next year, Tänak has not cut short rumors. "All possibilities are open, I hope to make a decision for next season on Monday or Tuesday."

https://www.rtbf.be/sport/moteurs/rallye/wrc/detail_tanak-soulage-la-pression-m-a-joue-des-tours-je-realise-un-reve?id=10352231

It is entirely possible that the whole story is a deliberate "release" by Martin to put extra pressure on Tommi. Judging by Tommi's face/interviews during the weekend it worked perfectly.

[cali]

It is entirely possible that the whole story is a deliberate "release" by Martin to put extra pressure on Tommi. Judging by Tommi's face/interviews during the weekend it worked perfectly.After this huuge win Tommi's face was so sour...

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[dimviii]

After this huuge win Tommi's face was so sour...

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i think that if he loose Tanak,responsibility is 100% at him.
Specially if he cant take Ogier,his next season is f@cked 100%
there are no excuses,when you dont have budget problems.

[dimviii]

Miika Wuorela
@MiikaWuorela

Replying to @SaariJarno
Actually, couple of weeks ago they were already business associates. The contract was signed already a month ago, so they fooled us all for quite a long time...



https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EH6YvIYXkAA7jxl?format=jpg&name=large

[Rally Power]

As long as they let him setup and work with the car I do not see a problem. Same story applied to Toyota and he was fast right out of box beating his teammates. I do not see this as a problem, rather than then the atmosphere in the team with Neuville could be poisonous.


Hopefully, Adamo’s touring car racing backgroung will help him managing 2 top drivers under the same roof.

Anyway, I’m still puzzled about Tanak’s move to Hyundai: he’s the undisputed nr 1 driver in Toyota; the Yaris is the best car (despite a few reliability issues); the team has been ahead of the competition developing it and is based in Finland/Estonia; Toyota could pay whatever Tanak wants; why on hearth is he living?

[cali]

Hopefully, Adamo’s touring car racing backgroung will help him managing 2 top drivers under the same roof.

Anyway, I’m still puzzled about Tanak’s move to Hyundai: he’s the undisputed nr 1 driver in Toyota; the Yaris is the best car (despite a few reliability issues); the team has been ahead of the competition developing it and is based in Finland/Estonia; Toyota could pay whatever Tanak wants; why on hearth is he living?It puzzles me too but what I've heard Tommi's really hard to work with (not that Tänak and Märtin isn't) and they sort of have mutual respect with Adamo. As a team boss Tommi has been described as softy. But this is all hearsay coming not from the direct sources. Never knows, we will see in a couple of days.

Personally I like Adamo wayy more than Tommi. This guy is pure balls out...

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[rallyfiend]

Hopefully, Adamo’s touring car racing backgroung will help him managing 2 top drivers under the same roof.

Anyway, I’m still puzzled about Tanak’s move to Hyundai: he’s the undisputed nr 1 driver in Toyota; the Yaris is the best car (despite a few reliability issues); the team has been ahead of the competition developing it and is based in Finland/Estonia; Toyota could pay whatever Tanak wants; why on hearth is he living?

Hyundai pay more.

It's not that complicated.

Press release out in the next few days.

[dimviii]

Hyundai pay more.

It's not that complicated.

Press release out in the next few days.

i cant believe that Makinen will lost Tanak for 1-2 millions more,when this request would be easily solved from their budget.

[TypeR]

I bet that, 6-7-8 mil.. there is no difference to Toyota or Hyundai.. To be main things are the Nr 1 driver of the team and development of the new era car. Couple of hundred K's here and there is the easiest to agree.

[mknight]

It puzzles me too but what I've heard Tommi's really hard to work with (not that Tänak and Märtin isn't) and they sort of have mutual respect with Adamo. As a team boss Tommi has been described as softy. Never knows, we will see in a couple of days.

Personally I like Adamo wayy more than Tommi. This guy is pure balls out...



Well from the outside it's not possible to know how it "actually" is inside the team. But from outside view I also don't see any good reason for Tanak either.

For Adamo it's the best move he could do atm by all means. If Tanak wins in Hyundai it's good for Adamo, if it removes one of two Neuville's biggest opponents it's also great.
For manu title it's only Tanak's points that were keeping Toyota in fight for manu champ. Tanak scored 40 manu points more than Neuville this year, yet Toyota is 18 behind, so other Hyundai drivers got 58 more points than other Toyota drivers.

[cali]

I bet that, 6-7-8 mil.. there is no difference to Toyota or Hyundai.. To be main things are the Nr 1 driver of the team and development of the new era car. Couple of hundred K's here and there is the easiest to agree.Yeah but having Neuville in the same team this not make any sense. He will not bend to be no 2 in the team

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[skarderud]

Yeah but having Neuville in the same team this not make any sense. He will not bend to be no 2 in the team

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using TapatalkNeuville to Toyota then? He can only loose this one.

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[Oraamat]

Hyundai pay more.

It's not that complicated.

Press release out in the next few days.
There has to be something else than money. Toyota cant afford to negotiate in salary numbers because if they lose Tänak, then shit hits the fan and they are out of the picture for next year. They need to have one of top 3 in team, so money cant be problem.

[cali]

Neuville to Toyota then? He can only loose this one.

Sent fra min SM-G950F via TapatalkHe has how many years left in the contract? Surely Adamo will not let him go before the end of the valid contract. I'm just so puzzled right now as nothing makes sense anymore

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[Allez Andruet]

What's somewhat worrying from Toyota's point of view, that in two years the team has lost Lehtinen, Lappi and now Tänak - and basically all three have voluntarily walked out. If I were Akio Toyoda, I'd ask Tommi some questions.

[AnttiL]

What's somewhat worrying from Toyota's point of view, that in two years the team has lost Lehtinen, Lappi and now Tänak - and basically all three have voluntarily walked out. If I were Akio Toyoda, I'd ask Tommi some questions.

And not only these three...

[mknight]

Neuville to Toyota then? He can only loose this one.


Neuville said in two different interviews this weekend how he has always been faster than his teammates in Hyundai and he is kind of right. Obviously he wasn't faster every single rally, but over multiple rallies it's true.

Remember how people expected Loeb to dominate over Neuville after start of this season, similarly after the 3 rallies he did in 2017 it was expected that Mikkelsen would be fighting with Neuville for n1 position. Before that it was Paddon who had same speed with Neuville in 2016 and then just struggled since.

[Got Mail]

And not only these three...

The Black Widow effect?

[Oraamat]

Also whats weird is that, I havent heard any rumours that Tänak acctually tested Hyundai somewhere. When moving Toyota, there were videos and everything about testing it. So is he really changing team without even testing car before? Or they have kept it in secret and been reslly good at it?

[Rally Power]

Hyundai pay more.
It's not that complicated.

Hard to believe it's just about money; Toyota is paying millions to Alonso, mainly for PR purposes. A bad relation with Makinen, like cali explained, make more sense.

Btw, before Loeb's era having 2 top drivers in the same team was the rule in the WRC; it can work fine, as long there's a strong team manager.

[dimviii]

Hard to believe it's just about money;.

just thinking loudly....
because also for me is hard to believe thats is about money,maybe Tanak asked to run the yaris r5 program for customers with MM sport and Tommi denied?
Maybe Adamo willing to give MM sport this r5 multi million programm to MM sport?

[arx]

Also whats weird is that, I havent heard any rumours that Tänak acctually tested Hyundai somewhere. When moving Toyota, there were videos and everything about testing it. So is he really changing team without even testing car before? Or they have kept it in secret and been reslly good at it?

Exactly. Moving to another team without testing the car is insane. Or maybe these rumored Japanese plane tickets were South Korea tickets instead...;)

[Rally Power]

He has how many years left in the contract?

He signed last year for 3 years more (until the end of 21).


just thinking loudly....
because also for me is hard to believe thats is about money,maybe Tanak asked to run the yaris r5 program for customers with MM sport and Tommi denied?
Maybe Adamo willing to give MM sport this r5 multi million programm to MM sport?

Probably we’ll only know in the next Tanak movie…

[dimviii]

And not only these three...

spill the beans AnttiL

[Eli]

Sordo has (just like last year) only driven rallies that suit him, always with road position advantage on gravel. But yes he was consistent on those, much better than last year where he crashed twice.

Anyway I find it really strange that you consider Loeb "consistent" with Hyundai. From 6 starts he only scored manu points in 2 rallies and took a single podium. His tarmac results were terrible, just like his speed in Sweden and in Portugal he even crashed out with nothing to push for after a weekend with no pace. Compared to the 3 starts with C3 in 2018 I'd consider his 2019 season a disaster.

Loeb was on vacation mode this rally in my mind......he and Daniel came to enjoy themselves whatever the result may be....He never got to grips with the car, and IMHO this weekend in Catalunya he didn't seem to be too bothered with his lack of pace. He knows he's already proven himself here some 12 months ago...so he (Quite cleverly) decided to push as much as he could on Friday, and then when he saw he couldn't match the front runners, he decided to take it easy....now both he & Elena are celebrating Neuville's win without much care in the world, rightfully so, knowing they won't go down under.

[cali]

Dim, I actually wanted to write also that maybe this deal includes MM Motorsport running R5 programme instead of Sainteloc. As you know Katsuta no longer drives R5 cars.
I think this deal is more complicated than we think.

[mknight]

Loeb was on vacation mode this rally in my mind......he and Daniel came to enjoy themselves whatever the result may be....He never got to grips with the car, and IMHO this weekend in Catalunya he didn't seem to be too bothered with his lack of pace. He knows he's already proven himself here some 12 months ago...so he (Quite cleverly) decided to push as much as he could on Friday, and then when he saw he couldn't match the front runners, he decided to take it easy....now both he & Elena are celebrating Neuville's win without much care in the world, rightfully so, knowing they won't go down under.

Huh, he seemed pissed on just about every tarmac stage end. Re-play the alllive endings and/or read the comments.

[dimviii]

I think this deal is more complicated than we think.

more complicated= much more millions than Tanaks yearly salary,so yes its very complicated who will earn all these millions for decades of cars,and for plenty of years ahead.

[Eli]

Huh, he seemed pissed on just about every tarmac stage end. Re-play the alllive endings and/or read the comments.

Anyway you look at it, he hasn't been close to delivering the goods this season, and in this rally, he let Ott through just like that,of course Ott was on a mission but even Latvala was into single figures behind him and I reckon another stage and Loeb would have finished 5th...

[dnb]

How do you know Toyota has endless budget, are you really sure they offered Tanak what he deserves?

[racerx1979]

I mentioned early this year about Japanase mentality and how they work on an honor basis. It could just come down to stubborn Japanese mentality. They expect everyone to be loyal, but obviously the rest of the world does now work this way. I'm not sure the rumor is true or not but I've done business in Japan and they have a very systematic and traditional method of doing business. They even use pen and paper to record things as opposed to computers. As advanced as they are they do some weird things and have some old school traditional beliefs...

[denkimi]

Neuville said in two different interviews this weekend how he has always been faster than his teammates in Hyundai and he is kind of right. Obviously he wasn't faster every single rally, but over multiple rallies it's true.

Remember how people expected Loeb to dominate over Neuville after start of this season, similarly after the 3 rallies he did in 2017 it was expected that Mikkelsen would be fighting with Neuville for n1 position. Before that it was Paddon who had same speed with Neuville in 2016 and then just struggled since.
People seem to forget that loeb is old, and nobody beats time.
Old people get slower, but more importantly they have problems adjusting to new situations. The older you get, the more difficult it becomes to drive around problems like a bad setup.

I'm sure the 2004 loeb would have won this rally in whatever car available. But the 2019 loeb will only win in a car that fits his driving style perfectly. And apparently the citroen still fits his driving, but the hyundai doesn't.

I suspect that in the right car loeb could still fight for the title.

[pantealex]

If Tänak leaves, money from driving is not reason. Toyota has money and they are willing to pay.

R5 deal could be the reason and deffinently personal things with some TGR team chiefs.

TGR needs Tänak way more than Tänak needs TGR.

[wrc2017]

If Tänak leaves, money from driving is not reason. Toyota has money and they are willing to pay.

R5 deal could be the reason and deffinently personal things with some TGR team chiefs.

TGR needs Tänak way more than Tänak needs TGR.
Hyundai needs Tanak, more ths TGR. Hyundai programme at risk if they can't deliver something.
Now Citröen program at risk. I'd be worried if I was Lappi just now.

[AnttiL]

spill the beans AnttiL

I don't know if there's new people leaving, but I know that other important smaller name workers have left or almost left during the past three years.

[pantealex]

I don't know if there's new people leaving, but I know that other important smaller name workers have left or almost left during the past three years.

Mikko and Linda Hirvonen are good examples.

[ggg377]

I don't know if there's new people leaving, but I know that other important smaller name workers have left or almost left during the past three years.

With Lehtinen's and Lappi's unexpected departures before, it should be quite clear there is something toxic happening behind the Toyota curtains. In August-September it was hotly speculated in the Estonian media that the fiercest fight was over Tänak's future lead driver spot in Toyota, which Mäkinen publicly refused until the end. Mäkinen basically said if he doesn't like it he can go. That seems like insanity considering he is not only the fastest driver anymore, but also the world champion. If the world champion is not worthy enough to be your lead driver, who is? Now add the fact that TGR has just admitted they don't have a plan B for Tänak's departure. What are they smoking? The Japanese should bloodbathe their offices for letting it get to this point.

[Indreq]

When the news came, i was 90% sure that it is BS. Now i am 90% sure that it is true. Several small things:
1. Big one - Silence from Akio Toyoda - he has always congratulated team and drivers when they have succeeded in previous rounds but not now when they achieved their biggest success this year.
2. Somewhat reserved Mäkinen, he was more emotional after Rally GB even, compared to now...
3. Ridiculous amount of cryptic "hints" from Neuville, Adamo, Meeke etc. Why play this game if he stays?
4. Again - Akio Toyoda...

[AnttiL]

With Lehtinen's and Lappi's unexpected departures before, it should be quite clear there is something toxic happening behind the Toyota curtains. In August-September it was hotly speculated in the Estonian media that the fiercest fight was over Tänak's future lead driver spot in Toyota, which Mäkinen publicly refused until the end. Mäkinen basically said if he doesn't like it he can go. That seems like insanity considering he is not only the fastest driver anymore, but also the world champion. If the world champion is not worthy enough to be your lead driver, who is? Now add the fact that TGR has just admitted they don't have a plan B for Tänak's departure. What are they smoking? The Japanese should bloodbathe their offices for letting it get to this point.

Mäkinen trying to play a tough game, assuming Tänak wouldn't have anywhere else to go.

[mknight]

If it really happens and comes out tomorrow I wonder how the atmosphere will be in Australia and how the fight for manu title will go.
Thinking back to Ogier in Spain and GB 2011.

[ggg377]

Mäkinen trying to play a tough game, assuming Tänak wouldn't have anywhere else to go.

Letting Lappi go should have sounded some serious alarm bells already. Letting Tänak go is just shocking for everyone. If your negotiations result in the team spots being filled with complacent veteran drivers and your stars jumping ship to other teams, you are ruining it. Let's not forget they also missed Sordo for Hyundai, despite seeking him. Money troubles, which we don't know about?

[Allez Andruet]

Let's not forget they also missed Sordo for Hyundai, despite seeking him.

Case Sordo was just fake news, resulting from Mäkinen's refusal to say anything when names are thrown at him.

If you would ask Tommi whether he's interested in hiring Walter Röhrl for next season, he most likely wouldn't deny that either.

[Hartusvuori]

When the news came, i was 90% sure that it is BS. Now i am 90% sure that it is true. Several small things:
1. Big one - Silence from Akio Toyoda - he has always congratulated team and drivers when they have succeeded in previous rounds but not now when they achieved their biggest success this year.

4. Again - Akio Toyoda...

This just came in:

Dear Ott, Martin, all our friends and supporters in Estonia, and President Kaljulaid, congratulations for the first World Rally Championship titles for Drivers and Co-Drivers by Estonians!

Last year in Rally Finland, I saw so many Estonian fans waving Estonian flags to cheer on Ott and Martin.

They said the flags were not a weight on their shoulders. Instead, they felt the strong support from all the fans to achieve their best.

I’m glad that our Yaris WRC competed with such a strong wave of support from our Estonian friends and supporters, and we rode the wave to the championship title!

Ott and Martin, I want to celebrate together with you guys on the podium for the World Rally Championship for Manufacturers in three weeks and thank all the strong Estonian support over the years!

We must win in Australia!

Let’s do it together!

Akio Toyoda
Team Chairman, TOYOTA GAZOO Racing World Rally Team

[Fast Eddie WRC]

If it really happens and comes out tomorrow I wonder how the atmosphere will be in Australia and how the fight for manu title will go.
Thinking back to Ogier in Spain and GB 2011.

Talk about a conflict of interest !

Tanak to try to stop his new team winning the Manus will be so awkward.

[Indreq]

Talk about a conflict of interest !

Tanak to try to stop his new team winning the Manus will be so awkward.

Tänak might be out of job if he is successful - Hyundai needs this title, otherwise they may "do Wolksvagen" and pull the plug.

[cali]

I don't see Hyundai losing the title anyway

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[doubled1978]

People seem to forget that loeb is old, and nobody beats time.
Old people get slower, but more importantly they have problems adjusting to new situations. The older you get, the more difficult it becomes to drive around problems like a bad setup.

I'm sure the 2004 loeb would have won this rally in whatever car available. But the 2019 loeb will only win in a car that fits his driving style perfectly. And apparently the citroen still fits his driving, but the hyundai doesn't.

I suspect that in the right car loeb could still fight for the title.

Yeah I agree, I think what this rally showed is that the Hyundai is tricky car to get the best out of on tarmac, not that Loeb is slow on tarmac. Do I think any of the other drivers on the Hyundai roster would have finished 4th or better on this rally, no I don’t. He could also have had more time in his pocket after the gravel had Adamo not asked him to take the Hard tyres on the first loop, he gained in stage 3 but lost a lot in 1&2.

[doubled1978]

Talk about a conflict of interest !

Tanak to try to stop his new team winning the Manus will be so awkward.

Will it? He is employed by Toyota and they and Hyundai will expect him to give his maximum for Toyota in Australia.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Of course Tanak will do his professional job, but it would be a killer for Hyundai to lose by his hand.

Although I do agree they should win the Manus regardless.

[eib1]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EHza6LKWkAAsXLd.jpg:small

[ggg377]

https://sport.delfi.ee/news/auto/wrc/delfi-rallistuudio-miks-otsustas-ott-tanak-punktikatsel-joudu-naidata-kas-uleminek-hyundaisse-on-kindel?id=87892917

According to Estonian rally journalists and the information they obtained from the Catalunya rally park the Tänak-Hyundai deal is 100% done and will be public in a matter of days. Speculated reasons - engineers leaving from Toyota and Hyundai having a stronger and a more efficient team and a more reliable car.

[mknight]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EHza6LKWkAAsXLd.jpg:small

I wouldn't read this as Breen going to MSport.

Imo if Hyundai is going to be Tanak-Neuville-Sordo-Loeb. Breen is their ideal candidate to drive Sweden, Finland and GB while at the same time driving/developing R5.
(Mikkelsen is off course also a candidate for that but I doubt he will do that, with the manager change he would rather buy seat at MSport)

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Thierry Neuville says he would welcome Ott Tanak as a team-mate at Hyundai in the 2020 #WRC season.
https://t.co/5cV4tT1iEr

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Breen yesterday:
Proud to be part of this amazing team !
https://t.co/P6OezRqOmC

[STI69]

just thinking loudly....
because also for me is hard to believe thats is about money,maybe Tanak asked to run the yaris r5 program for customers with MM sport and Tommi denied?
Maybe Adamo willing to give MM sport this r5 multi million programm to MM sport?

I think you have nailed it. Exactly my thoughts after Evans leaked this. Katsuta R5 business is ending and Markko and Ott need something new for the MMM business (Ott became the partner in mid April this year). Also I have heard that we know only fraction of the problems what the Yaris have had during the races. Very often they have had to try to fix the car on road sections and same problems appear again and again.

[dimviii]

i read at French forum that Red Bull always follow/sponsor the each world champion.
This means that Red Bull will be with Tanak and Hyundai next year?

[er88]

i read at French forum that Red Bull always follow/sponsor the each world champion.
This means that Red Bull will be with Tanak and Hyundai next year?Red Bull might sponsor/support Tanak personally but they won't leave Ogier/ Citroen imo

[eib1]

when was that when Adamo said that contract talks with Tanak are ended and later Tanak confirmed that they might not be even friends anymore?
Might it be that since then they have fooled us?
contract talks ended = contract signed
not friends = employer/employee relationship

[doubled1978]

i read at French forum that Red Bull always follow/sponsor the each world champion.
This means that Red Bull will be with Tanak and Hyundai next year?

That may technically be true, but until this year there has only been two guys who have been WC in the last 15 years...who were both French.

[Rally Power]

i read at French forum that Red Bull always follow/sponsor the each world champion.
This means that Red Bull will be with Tanak and Hyundai next year?

French forum posts should be taken with several pinches of salt; they’re also saying that Hyundai offered 10M to Tanak, that he was feeling discriminated for being an Estonian on a Finn team and that he secretly tested the i20 after Turkey…only this last one makes some sense.

[eib1]

Tanak's sponsor Oleg Gross confirmed today that he knows (already some time ago) where Ott is driving next year.
So the contract is signed and was signed some time ago.

[ggg377]

Tanak's sponsor Oleg Gross confirmed today that he knows (already some time ago) where Ott is driving next year.
So the contract is signed and was signed some time ago.

And since Mäkinen clearly hasn't signed a contract it's going to be Hyundai.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Colin Clark suggests Ogier to Toyota is very possible as he wants a car ready to challenge for the WDC in his last season.

[Oraamat]

Well now its weird that Tommi was talking that th offer is made and waiting for Tänak response, but if it was signed with Hyundai a month ago or more, then why to negotiate with Toyota and make Tommi believe that its still open.

[ggg377]

Well now its weird that Tommi was talking that th offer is made and waiting for Tänak response, but if it was signed with Hyundai a month ago or more, then why to negotiate with Toyota and make Tommi believe that its still open.

I don't like this at all. Fine, jump teams, but at least be a man about it. It will leave a bad taste for a long time. I guess it was done like this to keep any semblance of a team spirit for the title fights.

[Oraamat]

Tanak's sponsor Oleg Gross confirmed today that he knows (already some time ago) where Ott is driving next year.
So the contract is signed and was signed some time ago.
Well atleast in "Ringvaade" Oleg didnt mention anything about how long he has known it.
He was asked whats next? Rumours say that he doesent continue with Toyota and will be joining Hyundai.

Oleg answered that he knows what Ott is doing but he is not the right person to say it and isnt authorized to tell it.

[TypeR]

Could there be any links between ,,Malcolm's statement, that they don't chase Ott anymore'' and that Ott signed to Hyundai at the same time.
Was it around month or so ago..?
Would be fair for Wilson to know first about it..

[EstWRC]

Also whats weird is that, I havent heard any rumours that Tänak acctually tested Hyundai somewhere. When moving Toyota, there were videos and everything about testing it. So is he really changing team without even testing car before? Or they have kept it in secret and been reslly good at it?

If you mean these vids https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxzxoks6ubE. Then this was after the season had ended.

About testing with Hyundai, he himself hasnt tested it (as far as i now, but i cant be 100% sure but i doubt Toyota contract allows it) but it has been tested for him. (at least this is what i have heard)

[cali]

I have info:
Tänak to Hyundai (deal done about a month ago)
Ogier to Toyota (some legal stuff still to be solved)

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[Oraamat]

If you mean these vids https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxzxoks6ubE. Then this was after the season had ended.

About testing with Hyundai, he himself hasnt tested it (as far as i now, but i cant be 100% sure but i doubt Toyota contract allows it) but it has been tested for him. (at least this is what i have heard)
Okay it seems like i remembered wrong. In my head there were videos with mirrorglass white yaris and people tried to see from pictures in different angle throught windshield who was driving but, I think that was the case with Ogier when he finally setteled with Ford.

[cali]

I don't like this at all. Fine, jump teams, but at least be a man about it. It will leave a bad taste for a long time. I guess it was done like this to keep any semblance of a team spirit for the title fights.You really think before 2019 titles are unsolved they will jump in with such shockers??
It will be anounced when the time is appropriate no need to talk slack if you can't understand how business is done.

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[ggg377]

You really think before 2019 titles are unsolved they will jump in with such shockers??
It will be anounced when the time is appropriate no need to talk slack if you can't understand how business is done.

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Well to be fair it was leaked to the public before either of the titles were decided and judging from what Ott, Colin Clark, Gross and many others have said it will be announced in the coming days (before the manufacturer's title is decided). With the resources the teams have it could have been done far more elegantly than to string Mäkinen along uselessly for months and keep him in the dark. That relationship will be ruined for good, no matter the explanation.

[Tarmop]

Why do you think he was kept in the dark? It`s not like he would go public with the news first...and/or ruin the TGR success story...

[Oraamat]

Well if Ogier really are joining Toyots then Tommi was maybe just playing to be stupid and nothing to know about it, because if Ogier is dealing with some legal shit with citroens contract before changing team, then it couldnt be surprise for Tommi. Ogier and Toyota had to start negotiating some time ago.

[cali]

Well to be fair it was leaked to the public before either of the titles were decided and judging from what Ott, Colin Clark, Gross and many others have said it will be announced in the coming days (before the manufacturer's title is decided). With the resources the teams have it could have been done far more elegantly than to string Mäkinen along uselessly for months and keep him in the dark. That relationship will be ruined for good, no matter the explanation.First of all it's Mäkinen who has ruined it
He knows it and has been up to date, it's just a play for the bigger public
Official announcement will be made by as planned, if it's not logical to you or someone else then so be it
Every time when contracts are agreed there will be leaks be it in Formula One or WRC, there's always someone who will not keep his mouth shut

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[Oraamat]

First of all it's Mäkinen whonhas ruined it
He knows it and has been up to date, it's just a play for the bigger public
Official announcement will be made by as planned, if it's not logical to you or someone else then so be it
Every time when contracts are agreed there will be leaks be it in Formula One or WRC, there's always someone who will not keep his mouth shut

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So you mean ruined that Tänak is leaving?

[cali]

So you mean ruined that Tänak is leaving?Yes, there's stuff that is not well taken by Tänak camp
Read also this forum, lot of people left and leaving TMR

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[Oraamat]

And Tommi isnt willing to change or do things differently then that leaving is only option?

[ggg377]

Why do you think he was kept in the dark? It`s not like he would go public with the news first...and/or ruin the TGR success story...

If you look at Mäkinen's statements since the Hyundai announcement it's clear he was in the dark. He literally said there is no plan B for Toyota at the moment. His attitude changed completely from Wales to Catalunya.

[cali]

And Tommi isnt willing to change or do things differently then that leaving is only option?That's what I have heard and understand

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[Tarmop]

Tommi or his lady...

[TypeR]

Nobody here knows the meetings and relations between Tommi/TGR and Ott/Märtin atm. Either side could be pissed of abouth smth and may have left it the way it was..
It's sure that Tommi knows the situation, but come on.. show some respect and emotions to the crew that brought TGR(mostly) the 18' WMC and now 19' WDC.. Instead he, Kaj and others sit in the service and barely smile..

[Tarmop]

If you look at Mäkinen's statements since the Hyundai announcement it's clear he was in the dark. He literally said there is no plan B for Toyota at the moment. His attitude changed completely from Wales to Catalunya.

Probably has plan c also... come on, he has a developing contender who he can hire, Evans, Breen, Mikkelsen, Ostberg...

[Andre Oliveira]

I doubt Ogier goes to Toyota.

[Oraamat]

If you look at Mäkinen's statements since the Hyundai announcement it's clear he was in the dark. He literally said there is no plan B for Toyota at the moment. His attitude changed completely from Wales to Catalunya.
Well if calis statements are correct and Ogier really is dealing with some legal stuff to move Toyota then its pretty clear plan b. I guess he just wasnt prepared for a rumour news during rally, so he just didnt know what to answer. And obviously there cant be any direct hint or anything before official announcement.

[EstWRC]

i have some serious questions about Tommis actions as a team manager

last year Lappi left, now Tänak....

[Oraamat]

i have some serious questions about Tommis actions as a team manager

last year Lappi left, now Tänak....
Yea, it seems like the fish rots from the head down.

[Rally Power]

Ogier to Toyota (some legal stuff still to be solved)

The same was said about Neymar going to Barcelona as was his wish, but he’s still playing for PSG…(sorry for the OT).

Ogier will continue with Citroen next year, as planned.

[T16]

I have info:
Tänak to Hyundai (deal done about a month ago)
Ogier to Toyota (some legal stuff still to be solved)

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I think Mrs Ogier has already sorted out the legal stuff!

[wrc2017]

And Tommi isnt willing to change or do things differently then that leaving is only option?

Tanak is WRC Champ driving a Toyota. What needs changed?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Ogier will continue with Citroen next year, as planned.

Toyota has made a big investment to enter and achieve what they have in the WRC.

I dont see how they would try to compete with Hyundai in 2020 without the only other elite driver (Ogier).

They need to be in the fight for both Titles and a team of second-string driver's isnt going to cut it.

[RS]

If we’re talking about guys breaking contracts now, Neuville in a Toyota would be interesting.

[dnb]

If we’re talking about guys breaking contracts now, Neuville in a Toyota would be interesting.

If you're playing scramble, why not Adamo to Toyota? Things would happen.

[Kielder]

S-dv 9032; to v33681; vle 756x; in-nl 67; in-nz 9; 704 exc 75; 294 fpf 75; to-89095-h; k-am 5083; k-am 6983; l 555 bat; n6 mre; 206 ndp 75; x20 srt; s600 wrt; 23 ddm 92; wov vw 369; sp 1013...

[mknight]

I really hope Ogier doesn't go to Toyota as it might quarantee that Citroen leaves after 2020 or even sooner.

The things that are against it:
- he spend most of the year changing C3 and now when finally all the upgrades are coming he should change to a different car knowing he has no time to make it suit him?
- some of the reasons for Tanak leaving would also piss off Ogier a lot (reliability, people leaving etc.)
- travel to Finland when he lives in Germany with wife and kid takes quite a lot longer
- I think Ogier cares a lot about what French people think about him. Leaving Citroen now for Toyota just before ending career is not likely to be a popular move
- Being at Citroen and very much involved with testing the bigger C3 aero as well as the "wing affair", he also sees that with smaller wing Toyota is no longer massively faster than others

All this being said I am sure Toyota will do everything possible to try to get him (Japanese more than Tommi, even to the point of ordering Tommi to hire him)

[Katvala]

This silly season is something else. What's next, the old VW team reunited at Toyota? (Ogier, Latvala, Mikkelsen)

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[mknight]

Toywagen?

[Rally Power]

Toyota has made a big investment to enter and achieve what they have in the WRC.
I dont see how they would try to compete with Hyundai in 2020 without the only other elite driver (Ogier).
They need to be in the fight for both Titles and a team of second-string driver's isnt going to cut it.

Come on Eddie, PSA is an independent manufacturer and Citroen is on the WRC by its own rigth and will. Ogier is under contract until the end of 2020 and he’s Citroen main asset; they hugely invest on him, not only financially but also in terms of sport strategy and even brand image, breaking their long partnership with Loeb. They simply can’t let him go.

[er88]

Was it a 2yr deal Ogier signed? I was sure it was a 1year plus a 1yr option to extend (ogier talks like it was), and you can bet your life that if that was the case, it wasn't Citroen putting in the "option" for another year. That would've been Ogier protecting his own ass from being tied to the C3 and Citroen if they cant get it right this year - even after the upgrades. A smart negotiator like Ogier could have something in the contract that allows him to walk regardless, even if it's a straight up 2year deal.

Maybe that's why Citroen ran the aero updates in a pre rally Spain test? Ogier will want to know now how the updates feel, because they've been testing and looking for aero evolutions for a whole year now at Citroen. Ogier simply can't wait any longer for Citroen to sort the car, he has to know going into 2020 and see proof.

[cali]

The same was said about Neymar going to Barcelona as was his wish, but he’s still playing for PSG…(sorry for the OT).

Ogier will continue with Citroen next year, as planned.That's what I have heard now from multiple places. To make things easier we could make a bet ;)

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[Rally Power]

Was it a 2yr deal Ogier signed? I was sure it was a 1year plus a 1yr option to extend (ogier talks like it was) ...

Yep, that’s what I also recall, but options can be signed earlier and some time ago Mrs. Jackson and Budar confirmed Ogier in 2020.



That's what I have heard now from multiple places. To make things easier we could make a bet ;)


It’d be hard to collect, unless you’re planning to 'spectate' Rally de Portugal next year ;)

[cali]

Yep, that’s what I also recall, but options can be signed earlier and some time ago Mrs. Jackson and Budar confirmed Ogier in 2020.




It’d be hard to collect, unless you’re planning to 'spectate' Rally de Portugal next year ;)If that's an invitation I'm willing to consider it :)

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[T16]

Was it a 2yr deal Ogier signed? I was sure it was a 1year plus a 1yr option to extend (ogier talks like it was), and you can bet your life that if that was the case, it wasn't Citroen putting in the "option" for another year. That would've been Ogier protecting his own ass from being tied to the C3 and Citroen if they cant get it right this year - even after the upgrades. A smart negotiator like Ogier could have something in the contract that allows him to walk regardless, even if it's a straight up 2year deal.

Maybe that's why Citroen ran the aero updates in a pre rally Spain test? Ogier will want to know now how the updates feel, because they've been testing and looking for aero evolutions for a whole year now at Citroen. Ogier simply can't wait any longer for Citroen to sort the car, he has to know going into 2020 and see proof.

All of that makes a lot of sense.

[T16]

Toyota: Ogier Meeke Rovanpera
Hyundai: Tanak Neuville Sordo/ Loeb
M-Sport: Evans Lappi or Latvala
Citroen: Out

[Rally Power]

If that's an invitation I'm willing to consider it :)

Good idea! Feel free to consider it, there’s always room in our RdP group ;)

[mknight]

I am quite sure Ogier confirmed 2020 with Citroen, just before Rally Finland.
Doesn't mean it's set in stone though.

[EstWRC]

Can’t wait you to post more later on then! Interesting info.

E: the post has been deleted who i was thanking, hmmm....

[racerx1979]

https://rallysportmag.com/wrc-withdrawals-likely-for-rally-australia-entry/

Anyone know more about this? Maybe Ogier and...

[Indreq]

Can also share what I heard couple of days ago from my source inside Toyota.

Reason for Ott's leaving is actually mainly about reliability and leadership, specially about Tommi and Mia and their ways of solving problems with Yaris and inside the TGR team (I can tell you more on that once the contract has been confirmed).
As one user said yesterday - the reasons why Toyota has failed (what we have seen on All Live) are just tip of the iceberg, and indeed alot of roadside repairs and so called praying-to-the-god is included.
New contract should be confirmed today or on Thursday.
Nothing I could confirm about Ogier to Toyota so far.
In the last 6 months 10+ people have left or let go from Toyota (middle managers, supervisors, mechanics).
The last one is mainly because of differences (Mia sacking everyone who doesn't like the way TGRWRC is operating) or because of the salary (Tommi pays average Finnish wage to most of the mechanics (unless you are his close friend) and is not willing to raise their salary even after all the success they have had).
Tanak might have burned his bridges with Toyota (more about that later on).
Akio and the Japanese supposedly came to an agreement with Tanak and his management (being first driver, having MM-motorsport to operate Yaris R5), but refused to take any action on Tommi's or Mia's leadership tactics.

// Lappi also left last year because of issues with Mia

Sounds like management style of your average finnish village team :D :D :D
N.O.T. might have hit bullseye (accidentally?) :P

[skarderud]

https://rallysportmag.com/wrc-withdrawals-likely-for-rally-australia-entry/

Anyone know more about this? Maybe Ogier and...Mads atleast, he would drive if Ogier still had the possibility to WDC. Some M-sport car?

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[mknight]

Maybe there was a call from Korea to NZ about not interfering with the title fight? Anyway this belongs to Australia thread.

[Sulland]

Who is this Mia?

[mknight]

Who is this Mia?
Mia Mäkinen wife of Tommi, formerly working for BMW Finland. Finnish people will have details.

[Hartusvuori]

Mia Mäkinen wife of Tommi, formerly working for BMW Finland. Finnish people will have details.

I'm not sure are they married, but a couple they are. And her name is Mia Miettinen. She is also the vice CEO of Tommi Mäkinen Racing.

[Allez Andruet]

Who is this Mia?

The former CEO of BMW Finland, currently some kind of EVP of Tommi Mäkinen Racing Oy and a board member of Tommi Mäkinen Racing Oü.

It's no secret they're a couple. For example when Finland celebrated 100 years of independence in December 2017, they were together in a party organized by the Finnish president: https://www.is.fi/linnanjuhlat/art-2000005480289.html

[Allez Andruet]

The last one is mainly because of differences (Mia sacking everyone who doesn't like the way TGRWRC is operating) or because of the salary (Tommi pays average Finnish wage to most of the mechanics (unless you are his close friend) and is not willing to raise their salary even after all the success they have had).

Just out of curiosity, does anyone here know if the TGR mechanics and other staff are employees of Tommi Mäkinen Racing Oy or Oü?

[eib1]

https://creditreports.ee/tommi-makinen-racing-ou?_ga=2.137267888.1460623180.1572334349-1137660978.1529497493

OÜ has 65 employees, in II Quarter the number was 33 so i think he is moving them from OY to OÜ right now

[AnttiL]

https://rallysportmag.com/wrc-withdrawals-likely-for-rally-australia-entry/

Anyone know more about this? Maybe Ogier and...

Tänak?

EDIT: Obviously Østberg will be withdrawn now, but still you can think of the conflict of interest with Tänak driving against his future employer

[pantealex]

Correct me if I am wrong. (Estonia people should now)

TGR (or TMR if you want) Estonia and MMM (Markko Märtin Motorsport) are in same location (same address)

Who owns that place ? Markko and Ott or Tommi and Mia ? (TMR Estonia is 50% owned by Tommi and Mia owns 50% also, and that´s big problem)

If Ott goes off from TGR, I just can´t see MMM and TGR/TMR working together...

TGR Finland and Estonia units are not working well together, carbon and other spareparts worth over 2Million € are missing from Estonia unit...

[eib1]

TGR (or TMR if you want) Estonia and MMM (Markko Märtin Motorsport) are in same location (same address)



no, never been

[Fredouye]

https://www.rallye-sport.fr/neuville-ramener-le-titre-constructeurs/

Neuville, about Tänak : "Anyway, as it seems he'll be with us in the team next year, [...]"

[Allez Andruet]

Correct me if I am wrong. (Estonia people should now)

TGR (or TMR if you want) Estonia and MMM (Markko Märtin Motorsport) are in same location (same address)


Not according to the official records.

TMR OÜ: Reti tee 14 Peetri alevik, Rae vald Harjumaa 75312
Triple M OÜ (MM-Motorsport): Õlleköögi põik 2, Kurna küla Rae vald Harjumaa 75307

[Indreq]

Not according to the official records.

TMR OÜ: Reti tee 14 Peetri alevik, Rae vald Harjumaa 75312
Triple M OÜ (MM-Motorsport): Õlleköögi põik 2, Kurna küla Rae vald Harjumaa 75307

this is correct. They are geographically close, but not same place.

[sidrun]

https://maps.app.goo.gl/BseiTNK8jmnhTLYC8
Google maps shows that these 2 locations are approx. 11 km apart from each other

[Oraamat]

For some reason there isnt proper google streetview at that place, only one dot. And if u open street view in that dot this comes up :D
https://www.upload.ee/image/10655974/mmm.png
https://www.upload.ee/image/10655975/mmm1.png
360 degrees view inside that car. pretty cool.

[Indreq]

If these domino pieces fall as it has been predicted here (Ogi to TGR and Citroen to leave) then some finnish hag has screwed up whole WRC...

[robertr]

EDIT: but still you can think of the conflict of interest with Tänak driving against his future employer

That does not seem logical. I don't think Hyundai would want to hire a driver who is willingly sabotaging his current employer.

[Allez Andruet]

That does not seem logical. I don't think Hyundai would want to hire a driver who is willingly sabotaging his current employer.

I think they're willing to hire a driver who will do what's in their best interest.

And this is not to say Tänak would be a cheat, but as AnttiL pointed out, the conflict of interest is huge and leaves a lot to be desired. I think it would be best for all parties (incl. Tänak himself) that Tänak stays home for Australia. If he and Toyota do not win the title, there will forever be questions whether he did his all in that specific rally.

[robertr]

I think they're willing to hire a driver who will do what's in their best interest.

And this is not to say Tänak would be a cheat, but as AnttiL pointed out, the conflict of interest is huge and leaves a lot to be desired. I think it would be best for all parties (incl. Tänak himself) that Tänak stays home for Australia. If he and Toyota do not win the title, there will forever be questions whether he did his all in that specific rally.

I am very sorry, but this is the stupidest WRC-related thing I have ever read. Worst thing Tänak can do is to no start in Australia. It would decimate his, Hyundai's and whole WRC's integrity and would make the whole series a joke.

I am 100% sure that Tänak will go to Australia hungry as ever and will be fastest Toyota as now the pressure is gone and he can really push.

[TypeR]

In Australia he is still a driver of Toyota Gazoo Racing and I think it wasn't even under consideration that he would drive slower or do anything else stupid.. Hyundai should already take into account and calculate the points the way that Tänak may win the rally.

[Allez Andruet]

Worst thing Tänak can do is to no start in Australia. It would decimate his, Hyundai's and whole WRC's integrity and would make the whole series a joke.

Quite the opposite I'm afraid. If conflict of interest (which this is, right?) isn't taken seriously, THAT would make the whole series a joke.

And just to say it one more time: I have no doubts Tänak would do everything in order to secure the manu title for TGR (he has some nice bonus on that title as well, I assume), but it's more about how it looks.

[Oraamat]

Well I think that he goes to Australia to end season with a bang. He doesent have win from there yet and he can realle push because no pressure anymore and he still works for Toyota, to stay home or cruise throught is just stupid. He even said in one interview that season is not over yet, they can relax for a bit but more work waits in Australia.

[cali]

Day by day this is getting more insane

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[Franky]

Oh yes. Couldn't be a better way to spend time than reading through this thread.

[Owe Johansson]

Agree!
- money
- tradewar (SK/Japan)
- management by perkelä
- R5
Sad to read about all this staff.

[mknight]

Tänak?

EDIT: Obviously Østberg will be withdrawn now, but still you can think of the conflict of interest with Tänak driving against his future employer

I don't think it's likely. But then again it almost seemed like Toyoda was "begging" Tänak to help them win title in Australia.

[RS]

https://rallysportmag.com/wrc-withdrawals-likely-for-rally-australia-entry/

Anyone know more about this? Maybe Ogier and...

Kopecky? He may be considered WRC as in not Australian.

[EstWRC]

cmon guys, they all will be starting in Australia, i mean Ogier, Tänak, Neuville (well he is anyway)

Hyundai and Adamo are grown up people and they will undrestand that Ott at the moment is working for Toyota and will help them.

[AnttiL]

Kopecky? He may be considered WRC as in not Australian.

Yeah, the article mentioned Østberg and Kopecky. What a clickbait.

About Tänak not starting Australia, let's just say that it wasn't my idea, I heard it elsewhere. But of course it's just a rumor at this point.

[Rallyper]

So what about everything stays as 2019?

All rumours, bulltalks is just what it is?

I believe maybe all will stay the same for 2020. Might be wrong...

[T16]

So what about everything stays as 2019?

All rumours, bulltalks is just what it is?

I believe maybe all will stay the same for 2020. Might be wrong...

I really think more credit should be given to the Evans article. Is says contract signed. He’s going, no doubt.

[denkimi]

Toyota: Ogier Meeke Rovanpera
Hyundai: Tanak Neuville Sordo/ Loeb
M-Sport: Evans Lappi or Latvala
Citroen: Out
Why not mikkelsen and latvala at citroen? Perhaps together with ostberg.
If latvala doesn't crash to often they could do well in the constructors.

[ggg377]

Come on guys. Tänak is going to Australia and he's going to be fighting for the win. In one of the post-Catalunya interview someone said to him you won 6 rallies this season. He responded - so far... Toyota will most likely offer generous bonuses for both the rally win and the manufacturer's title. What's in it for him if he sabotages his team for Hyundai?

[ggg377]

https://sport.err.ee/977061/wilson-jahib-endiselt-tanakut-aga-evansist-ja-suninenist-ei-loobu

Wilson on 05.09.2019 "For sure Elfyn and Teemu will stay in the team" "We have invested so much into both of them it would be insane to let someone profit off of us"

[Legendaarne]

As usual, I think the reason for Tänaks leavingi probably lies somewhere in between what everyone here and in the media has talked about.
I can totally see Mäkinen not having balls enough to say to his other drivers to back off, not to chase Ott in the brginning of the year (cost Toyota and Ott a lot of points)
Toyota still seems kinda unreliable.

But I just think Ott & Tommi coulfn't get along because probably Tommi said yes to each driver when asked, if they can drive for the win.
He isn't the kind of leader that Malcolm id.
And Adamo is.

They get things done and that's it.

This is my two cents anyway on the matter.

Ott&Martin are champions, this matters the most.

Hope to see some news soon and get some closure

[krissucool]

As usual, I think the reason for Tänaks leavingi probably lies somewhere in between what everyone here and in the media has talked about.
I can totally see Mäkinen not having balls enough to say to his other drivers to back off, not to chase Ott in the brginning of the year (cost Toyota and Ott a lot of points)
Toyota still seems kinda unreliable.

But I just think Ott & Tommi coulfn't get along because probably Tommi said yes to each driver when asked, if they can drive for the win.
He isn't the kind of leader that Malcolm id.
And Adamo is.

They get things done and that's it.

This is my two cents anyway on the matter.

Ott&Martin are champions, this matters the most.

Hope to see some news soon and get some closure

Can you give any concrete examples of teammates costing Tänak points?

[Legendaarne]

I mean in the way that they didn't take points away from Ogier and Neuville

Meeke in portugal
Finland 1-2-3 for example

Bad choice of words in my part

[ggg377]

Can you give any concrete examples of teammates costing Tänak points?

Meeke gifting Neuville the 2nd place and Ogier 3rd place in Portugal crashing in the powerstage.

[ggg377]

Meeke/Latvala crashed out of many races in the first half of the season chasing their personal ambitions, in the process gifting many points to Neuville, Ogier and the Hyundais. I think at some point there was a statistic that something like over half of Meeke's WDC points were from power stages (after crashing on the first or second day).

[denkimi]

Can you give any concrete examples of teammates costing Tänak points?
Only in argentina and turkey ended his teammates in front of him. And neither times could any of them have given him more points.

[mknight]

https://sport.err.ee/977061/wilson-jahib-endiselt-tanakut-aga-evansist-ja-suninenist-ei-loobu

Wilson on 05.09.2019 "For sure Elfyn and Teemu will stay in the team" "We have invested so much into both of them it would be insane to let someone profit off of us"

Funny comment, as "letting others" profit (and taking his part) has been his mode of operation for quite a while. Tanak being latest example.

Also doesn't fit the way they were talking up Evan's value around July.

Final note is that this was written on 5/9 which is before all this Tanak crazyness.

[T16]

Why not mikkelsen and latvala at citroen? Perhaps together with ostberg.
If latvala doesn't crash to often they could do well in the constructors.

Just got that feeling again that they’re going to jump ship.

[ggg377]

Funny comment, as "letting others" profit (and taking his part) has been his mode of operation for quite a while. Tanak being latest example.

Also doesn't fit the way they were talking up Evan's value around July.

Final note is that this was written on 5/9 which is before all this Tanak crazyness.

Wilson has touted Suninen's future potential all season and Evans has been perhaps the closest driver to the big 3 this season. Switching either of them out for anyone who is not Tänak, Neuville, Ogier or at least Lappi just wouldn't make sense.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

The other teams could stand a chance in the Manus if Tanak and Neuville both push each other too hard and they make more mistakes. But Hyundai will still have a quality driver in their 3rd car to mop up points.

If Ogier stays at Citroen they really need to run a third car to compete effectively.

[BobJones]

Why not mikkelsen and latvala at citroen? Perhaps together with ostberg.
If latvala doesn't crash to often they could do well in the constructors.

Interesting. I could see Mikkelsen or JML going there, but perhaps not both (Ostberg has good ties, Lappi and - cough - Ogier under contract)

[br21]

Rally (especially on World level) is very small, and there always will be some common things/links between the teams/drivers, etc. Like Tanak for the moment - still linked to Malcolm because of paying back money (so Malcolm needs to know about Tanaks contracts immediately, as that's all part of their deal) plus OT Racing is running Fiesta WRC, and Ott himself driving Toyota, etc. So no chances to make it all 100% clear and separate.
Regarding contract signing, anouncments, etc it's also not that simple, as if Hyundai signs Ott they would like to announce it with big boom (as it should give them some marketing feedback). But as Ott is under contract with Toyota at least until the end of the season (probably end of the calendar year) it can't be done in the way Hyundai PR would like to make it, so that is obviously important reason od "delay" (if there is anything to announce:)

[ggg377]

My 2 cents for the next season:

Toyota: Latvala, Meeke, Rovanperä/Katsuta (rotating)
Hyundai: Tänak, Neuville, Sordo/Loeb (rotating)
M-Sport: Suninen, Evans
Citroen: Ogier, Lappi

[denkimi]

The other teams could stand a chance in the Manus if Tanak and Neuville both push each other too hard and they make more mistakes. But Hyundai will still have a quality driver in their 3rd car to mop up points.

If Ogier stays at Citroen they really need to run a third car to compete effectively.
The big 3 have been pushing each other for 3 years now, but they all have learnt from ogier in 2017.
Neither of them needs a rally win to prove themselves anymore, so i don't suddenly see them making more mistakes now.

[Allez Andruet]

Just a reminder that Tommi has confirmed in public that Katsuta will not drive any of the three Yaris WRCs.

[wrc2017]

Just a reminder that Tommi has confirmed in public that Katsuta will not drive any of the three Yaris WRCs.

Was there not talk of a 2nd team?

[Allez Andruet]

Was there not talk of a 2nd team?

Exactly, that's what I meant that Katsuta's car will be run by TMR (I guess, not TGR anyway).

[mknight]

Wilson has touted Suninen's future potential all season and Evans has been perhaps the closest driver to the big 3 this season. Switching either of them out for anyone who is not Tänak, Neuville, Ogier or at least Lappi just wouldn't make sense.

Not switching voluntarily. But Toyota could be very interested in paying (a lot) for Evans, including giving parts of future income to Wilson (just like with Tänak)
If that comes on the table it's quite likely Wilson will accept imo.

[COD]

My 2 cents for the next season:

Toyota: Latvala, Meeke, Rovanperä/Katsuta (rotating)
Hyundai: Tänak, Neuville, Sordo/Loeb (rotating)
M-Sport: Suninen, Evans
Citroen: Ogier, Lappi

Why keep Latvala and Meeke, when you have Breen and Mikkelsen available? I wouldn’t keep both of then at least as there are options available. Also Paddon as an outside bet

[Rallyper]

If Tanak goes it would be brilliant move to get Paddon and sack Meeke. Latvala still an assett for Toyota.

And why not Mikkelsen as well or Evans. Kalle probably doing only a few rounds.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

The big 3 have been pushing each other for 3 years now, but they all have learnt from ogier in 2017.
Neither of them needs a rally win to prove themselves anymore, so i don't suddenly see them making more mistakes now.

Tanak & Neuville havent been in the same team before though. And as the old saying goes, the first driver you have to beat is your team-mate...

[RS]

If Tanak goes it would be brilliant move to get Paddon and sack Meeke.

Would it? It may or may not work, i think it's a bit strong to say it would be a 'brilliant move'

Meeke still has more points than Latvala despite Catalunya too.

Mikkelsen I would quite like to see in the Toyota. If they really are losing Tanak I think they will need one new driver for next year in addition to Rovanpera. If they can't get Ogier or Neuville then Mikkelsen would be a good choice.

[pantealex]

and Marcus Grönholm has given his opinion:

https://www.is.fi/ralli/art-2000006289675.html?ref=rss
(in Finnish so ...)

[ggg377]

Why keep Latvala and Meeke, when you have Breen and Mikkelsen available? I wouldn’t keep both of then at least as there are options available. Also Paddon as an outside bet

Because most of these free agents were available last year when they had to fill Lappi's spot. Mäkinen said just before the Catalunya rally he would prefer to continue with the same trio. Unless they really do snag Ogier (according to Belgian publication Rtbf Ogier isn't ruling it out) I don't see them changing the lineup much as Mäkinen clearly values Meeke and Latvala over the other drivers on the market. At least M-Sport, Hyundai and Citroen keep Paddon, Breen and Ostberg on the sidelines. Toyota has done no such thing.

[er88]

If Tanak goes it would be brilliant move to get Paddon and sack Meeke. Latvala still an assett for Toyota.

And why not Mikkelsen as well or Evans. Kalle probably doing only a few rounds.Kalle isn't only doing a few rounds, he's doing a full season in the Yaris.

Sounds like Latvala is more at risk than Meeke by all accounts, he's had a 3yr spell with the team now and has gone backwards. He has had the same problems for the last two years - starts the first half of the year terribly and his confidence gets shattered when his team mates are generally faster than him. He also gets his setups wrong (or doesnt have a good feeling) more than his team mates, which is a reason Makinen tears his hair out.

However Tanak leaving could easily see Latvala kept on now. Either way I hope he can remain in the WRC in some form regardless, and it's hard to say for sure that any other driver currently outside the top class like Breen/Paddon/Ostberg etc, are definitely better than Jari and Kris anyway.

[mknight]

Running Rovanpera full season is only a good idea if he is in 4th/non-nominated car. Here I completely agree with C.Clark, there is no point in putting any pressure on him on having to finish rallies.



...it's hard to say for sure that any other driver currently outside the top class like Breen/Paddon/Ostberg etc, are definitely better than Jari and Kris anyway.

This is an important separation, Evans and Mikkelsen are as good or better choice than Latvala/Meeke for team points. A look on the standings with them ahead with 3 less rallies is all that is needed.

Østberg/Been/Paddon in about that order are not clearly better than Latvala/Meeke and are a level below Evans/Mikkelsen as things stand right now. Paddon can increase his status massively in Australia though and has a perfect road position to do it.

[er88]

I dont know the extra costs involved with running a 4th car instead of just 3, but if Toyota aren't going to be paying a huge salary to keep Tanak/pay Ogier, they could have extra budget needed to run 4cars and sign someone like Mikkelsen (who will be happy to drive for a relatively small salary in WRC terms vs paying for a seat at Msport - which seems to be his only other option).

Latvala, Meeke and Mikkelsen would be a nice 3 car team given what's left available, and then you can run Kalle for a full season pressure free in a 4th car. Don't know what Tanak will have been demanding, but I'm sure it'll have been anywhere between €5-10m a year, which is a lot.

[ggg377]

Paddon can increase his status massively in Australia though and has a perfect road position to do it.

I highly doubt Paddon will start in Australia for this reason: https://www.hyundai.co.nz/community/hayden-paddon

From what I understand he has a lot of business ties to Hyundai, to the point where even his Ford WRC has a banner "HNZ". I would be very suprised if Hyundai allows him to steal the manufacturer's points needed for the title.

[Crazy J]

Reading comments from different forums and media last couple of days, it looks quite clear that someone has machined shitstorm against TMR, Tommi, Kaj and others. Some doubts if it was really deserved? Maybe it is appealing to first machine shitstorm in media and then try to hijack WRC business from TMR. Probably most of the mentioned issues are quite natural in this area and no one has said that running WRC team successfully is like a walk in the park. With salary levels in Finland and Estonia, you can't meet WRC team salaries from central Europe/UK, costs needs to be kept low. Neither is the Finland/Estonia as a location or cultural environment appealing to keep foreign resources in a team for a longer period. Change in personnel is typical especially in new and remote organizations. It would be weird e.g. if Citroen would have more resource transition than TMR. What comes to Tommi and Kaj, they have been that sort of typical steady Finnish persons forever and probably even improved from HR and PR skills during the TMR period. We need to remember that Tommi's background is farmer from central Finland, not CEO of HR consultancy agency. His achievements in TMR are quite decent so far.

Part of the WRC's popularity in the past was that teammates were competing against each other. Now people are blaming Tommi keeping the team internal competition open unlike other teams. Is "only 1 driver per team" F1 type of competition what we really want to see in WRC? Tommi's philosophy might have been that drivers will sort their order by driving and after couple of rallies it is clear and from then on nro 1 driver gets more attention than others. Would be alarming to hear if TMR has not given Tanak attention he has wanted/deserved. What comes to team aspect, Tommi has said in media that Tanak is nro 1 but has he ever restricted Tanak's driving because of Latvala or Meeke crashing, probably not. Letting 2nd or 3rd driver to drive freely their own best speed does not meant that he would allow or encourage them to crash constantly. Tommi is maybe even too supportive for underperforming drivers, unlike Adamo. In this case Tommi is following more known HR theories than Adamo. Same comes to loyalty that Japanese and Toyota also respects.

What comes to lot spoken leaving of Lappi, probably no one restricted him to show that he could be nro 1 driver in Toyota. nro 3 does not naturally get as big attention and salary as nro 1. At the state of his career probably Lappi got better deal from Citroen and same time TMR/TGR noticed that Lappi will not instantly become new Ogier and TMR has therefore valued Meeke's driving/engineering/PR skills to be more needed asset for them atm.

Also very hard to see why TMR would not like to continue commitment and co-operation with MMM and Tanak. Furthermore if TMR would not have mutual respect towards Estonian personnel, half of the TMR would not be Estonian as currently. For sure TMR will be very disappointed in case if Tanak is leaving. Also what comes to Japanese culture, leaving from Japanese brand to Korean might be not looked well compared e.g. moving from Japanese team to other Japanese team.

[EstWRC]

Spanish media should be taken with pinch of salt but Pipo Lopez is writing that Tänak has tested the Hyundai and he liked it.

[COD]

Running Rovanpera full season is only a good idea if he is in 4th/non-nominated car. Here I completely agree with C.Clark, there is no point in putting any pressure on him on having to finish rallies.



Agree 100%

[Owe Johansson]

Well written!

[mknight]

I highly doubt Paddon will start in Australia for this reason: https://www.hyundai.co.nz/community/hayden-paddon

From what I understand he has a lot of business ties to Hyundai, to the point where even his Ford WRC has a banner "HNZ". I would be very suprised if Hyundai allows him to steal the manufacturer's points needed for the title.

I think he could start and drive normally and then if needed follow Hyundai team orders on second loop on Sunday.

[er88]

I find it funny that Tanak is supposedly crying about not being #1 in Toyota (he clearly is), and teammates taking pts in power stages from him etc etc, to then go and join Hyundai where for sure he will have equal status with Neuville - who is a near equal to him in current driver ability (certainly more so than Meeke and Latvala).

That tells me that surely this hasn't been a big factor at all in Tanak's reasoning for leaving Toyota.

Meeke pushed in Portugal under orders from Tommi, and in Finland Meeke and Latvala were pushing before both made mistakes, but next season Tanak will have Neuville breathing up his ass on most events (or ahead of him).

Money + car reliability + working/personal relationship with Tommi will by why he has left. Maybe throw in the R5 project with MM too.

[mknight]

With salary levels in Finland and Estonia, you can't meet WRC team salaries from central Europe/UK, costs needs to be kept low.

Didn't quite get why salary levels are a topic but the team part in Estonia is obviously to have lower salaries. With that in mind I can't see how average salary levels for Finnish and Estonian parts together can be much higher than in UK(Msport),"West" Germany (Hyundai) or France.

Anyway the very high TMR profit shows that there certainly is room to use more money.

About the "it's all a conspiracy"...

The repeating reliability issues are a hard fact for last 3 years.

[AnttiL]

Reading comments from different forums and media last couple of days, it looks quite clear that someone has machined shitstorm against TMR, Tommi, Kaj and others.

Just saying that the stories about people leaving, bad atmosphere at the team, bad leadership and issues with the car reliability didn't come overnight with the news of Tänak's alledged deal with Hyundai, I've heard this stuff all along from 2017.

[EstWRC]

Just saying that the stories about people leaving, bad atmosphere at the team, bad leadership and issues with the car reliability didn't come overnight with the news of Tänak's alledged deal with Hyundai, I've heard this stuff all along from 2017.

exactly, ive heard it too since 17.


and none of us here know what exactly are the reasons why Ott is leaving.

Well, maybe some guys know but they wont write about it here.

[dimviii]

. Don't know what Tanak will have been demanding, but I'm sure it'll have been anywhere between €5-10m a year, which is a lot.

dont remember where i read it,but Latvala is at 4,5 m at Toyota.Dont know if its valiable the number though.

[Tarmop]

I highly doubt Paddon will start in Australia for this reason: https://www.hyundai.co.nz/community/hayden-paddon

From what I understand he has a lot of business ties to Hyundai, to the point where even his Ford WRC has a banner "HNZ". I would be very suprised if Hyundai allows him to steal the manufacturer's points needed for the title.



What on earth are you on about? Hyundai New Zealand, is his biggest supporter and wishes him all the best...hence that private (M-Sport) Fiesta has a HNZ logo, was supposed to run in Finland, ran in GB and will run in Australia. Hyundai Motorsport on the otherhand ditched him quite badly. Only way he wouldn`t start the event would probably be a min. 50% season in Hyundai 2020.

[Allez Andruet]

We need to remember that Tommi's background is farmer from central Finland, not CEO of HR consultancy agency. His achievements in TMR are quite decent so far.

Just a small correction: Tommi's background is being a four-time world rally champ. Last time he truly was a farmer we had Soviet Union and Germany was split into two different countries.

[Allez Andruet]

dont remember where i read it,but Latvala is at 4,5 m at Toyota.Dont know if its valiable the number though.

Don't know if it's 4,5M or something else, but it could be much higher than what his results from 2018 and 2019 would suggest. The deal was made in Dec 2016 and was for 2+1 years. So his 2019 base salary level was already set back then, based on the VW years.

[Rallyper]

and Marcus Grönholm has given his opinion:

https://www.is.fi/ralli/art-2000006289675.html?ref=rss
(in Finnish so ...)

Well, that´s about my opinion too...

[Rallyper]

Just saying that the stories about people leaving, bad atmosphere at the team, bad leadership and issues with the car reliability didn't come overnight with the news of Tänak's alledged deal with Hyundai, I've heard this stuff all along from 2017.

At least we read it on this forum...

[SubaruNorway]

Tänak?

EDIT: Obviously Østberg will be withdrawn now, but still you can think of the conflict of interest with Tänak driving against his future employer

Buddar had said after Ogier's problems on Friday that all hope was not lost for Østberg in Australia, if there was still hope after Sunday i don't know

[er88]

exactly, ive heard it too since 17.


and none of us here know what exactly are the reasons why Ott is leaving.

Well, maybe some guys know but they wont write about it here.Well i don't think it's as bad as you guys think. Otherwise they wouldn't have had all this success - winning their 2nd ever rally, winning the constructors title in their 2nd season, the drivers title in their 3rd...

Would love to see how bad the atmosphere has been at Hyundai and Citroen in those few years, where drivers have left/been sacked/ benched/ used the smallprint in their contracts to remain in the team, managers have lost their jobs, engineers and technical directors have been replaced etc, and neither team has won anything of note.

So for all the criticism Tommi gets, it's only fair to point out the superb job he has also done. A team boss isn't paid to make people like him - Adamo will tell you that. But the people at Toyota clearly respect Tommi otherwise the team success wouldn't be possible. Tanak is clearly difficult/ demanding to work with as well, but between them Ott and Tommi have made it work for the last two years.

It is not like Makinen and Toyoda won't have tried their best to keep Tanak, losing him is a huge loss. So I get that questions have to be asked of Tommi and how this has happened, but Toyoda and Makinen are on the same page. Whatever Tanak has issues with or has demanded, hasn't been solved by speaking with Toyoda and the Japanese people. If Ott's mind has been set on going, sometimes it's not possible to change peoples mind no matter what.

[denkimi]

Don't know if it's 4,5M or something else, but it could be much higher than what his results from 2018 and 2019 would suggest. The deal was made in Dec 2016 and was for 2+1 years. So his 2019 base salary level was already set back then, based on the VW years.
Remember when tommi said he didn't need ogier because he already had latvala?
Lol.

[Indreq]

Like Tanak for the moment - still linked to Malcolm because of paying back money (so Malcolm needs to know about Tanaks contracts immediately, as that's all part of their deal)

I didnt know its public info. I have heard it but only once or twice "confidentially", so i dismissed it as speculation.

[dimviii]

tomorrow at Marca would be Tanaks interview
https://twitter.com/NachoVillarin/status/1189272203507974144

[br21]

I didnt know its public info. I have heard it but only once or twice "confidentially", so i dismissed it as speculation.

It is true.

[dnb]

I find it funny that Tanak is supposedly crying about not being #1 in Toyota (he clearly is), and teammates taking pts in power stages from him etc etc, to then go and join Hyundai where for sure he will have equal status with Neuville - who is a near equal to him in current driver ability (certainly more so than Meeke and Latvala).

That tells me that surely this hasn't been a big factor at all in Tanak's reasoning for leaving Toyota.

Meeke pushed in Portugal under orders from Tommi, and in Finland Meeke and Latvala were pushing before both made mistakes, but next season Tanak will have Neuville breathing up his ass on most events (or ahead of him).

Money + car reliability + working/personal relationship with Tommi will by why he has left. Maybe throw in the R5 project with MM too.

What if. What if Tänak is actually in for the challenge? He did achieve what he desired in Toyota. What if he actually likes developing cars and facing major obstacles. Maybe he wants to see/show that he is the best in world not just because of the car (Toyota) like some people keep telling. Maybe he wants to work and compare himself with Loeb or so-called enemy, Neuville? Maybe he wants to push himself more, maybe it got boring in TGR?

Rarely there is only 1 reason, but keep these things in mind. Money is not everything that keeps us going.

[er88]

What if. What if Tänak is actually in for the challenge? He did achieve what he desired in Toyota. What if he actually likes developing cars and facing major obstacles. Maybe he wants to see/show that he is the best in world not just because of the car (Toyota) like some people keep telling. Maybe he wants to work and compare himself with Loeb or so-called enemy, Neuville? Maybe he wants to push himself more, maybe it got boring in TGR?

Rarely there is only 1 reason, but keep these things in mind. Money is not everything that keeps us going.Exactly, and if that's the case it's not Tommi's fault for not being able to retain him. But it seems like the current narrative is Tanak is leaving because of Tommi and that's where all the Tommi bashing is coming from. Tommi has his own ways that are different, but he isn't a fool and has already had big success as team boss only 3yrs in.

We just don't know for sure until more is said by either of them. It could be Tanak that wants a new challenge/ wants to win a title with another manufacturer/ wants a lot more money on offer at Hyundai/ or genuinely can't work with Makinen anymore. Or a lot of smaller issues adding up.

[Rally Power]

Just saying that the stories about people leaving, bad atmosphere at the team, bad leadership and issues with the car reliability didn't come overnight with the news of Tänak's alledged deal with Hyundai, I've heard this stuff all along from 2017.

Honestly, the complaints may be old but the way they’re being revelead makes one wonder if they’re not exaggerated. The whole thing is sounding like a business dispute rather than a sport issue; that’s sad, having in mind what Makinen and Tanak managed to achieve together: taking Toyota and the Yaris to a top winning level. Hats off to both!

[doubled1978]

I think the reason there is so much searching for reasons Tanak is moving, is that it is very rare in Motorsport to find a top driver willingly leave behind what is considered to be the fastest car to move to a challenger. Whatever his reasons for jumping ship, it is a strange time to do it but clearly there is something that has made him go that way, and in all likelihood we will probably never know 100% the real reasons.
Also I would find it very surprising if he really has tested the Hyundai already as a company like Toyota just wouldn’t allow that under normal circumstances.

[spiderem]

I think you all are reading between lines and coming up with theories and conspiracy when the matter is a lot simpler.
I know what happened, Adamo invited Tanak for a dinner and cook pasta. It was the best pasta Tanak ever ate, then Adamo said "if you drive for Hyundai, I will cook for you".
The rest is history as they say.

[racerx1979]

Mia Mäkinen wife of Tommi, formerly working for BMW Finland. Finnish people will have details.

Not his wife, but girl friend....

[racerx1979]

Reading comments from different forums and media last couple of days, it looks quite clear that someone has machined shitstorm against TMR, Tommi, Kaj and others. Some doubts if it was really deserved? Maybe it is appealing to first machine shitstorm in media and then try to hijack WRC business from TMR. Probably most of the mentioned issues are quite natural in this area and no one has said that running WRC team successfully is like a walk in the park. With salary levels in Finland and Estonia, you can't meet WRC team salaries from central Europe/UK, costs needs to be kept low. Neither is the Finland/Estonia as a location or cultural environment appealing to keep foreign resources in a team for a longer period. Change in personnel is typical especially in new and remote organizations. It would be weird e.g. if Citroen would have more resource transition than TMR. What comes to Tommi and Kaj, they have been that sort of typical steady Finnish persons forever and probably even improved from HR and PR skills during the TMR period. We need to remember that Tommi's background is farmer from central Finland, not CEO of HR consultancy agency. His achievements in TMR are quite decent so far.

Part of the WRC's popularity in the past was that teammates were competing against each other. Now people are blaming Tommi keeping the team internal competition open unlike other teams. Is "only 1 driver per team" F1 type of competition what we really want to see in WRC? Tommi's philosophy might have been that drivers will sort their order by driving and after couple of rallies it is clear and from then on nro 1 driver gets more attention than others. Would be alarming to hear if TMR has not given Tanak attention he has wanted/deserved. What comes to team aspect, Tommi has said in media that Tanak is nro 1 but has he ever restricted Tanak's driving because of Latvala or Meeke crashing, probably not. Letting 2nd or 3rd driver to drive freely their own best speed does not meant that he would allow or encourage them to crash constantly. Tommi is maybe even too supportive for underperforming drivers, unlike Adamo. In this case Tommi is following more known HR theories than Adamo. Same comes to loyalty that Japanese and Toyota also respects.

What comes to lot spoken leaving of Lappi, probably no one restricted him to show that he could be nro 1 driver in Toyota. nro 3 does not naturally get as big attention and salary as nro 1. At the state of his career probably Lappi got better deal from Citroen and same time TMR/TGR noticed that Lappi will not instantly become new Ogier and TMR has therefore valued Meeke's driving/engineering/PR skills to be more needed asset for them atm.

Also very hard to see why TMR would not like to continue commitment and co-operation with MMM and Tanak. Furthermore if TMR would not have mutual respect towards Estonian personnel, half of the TMR would not be Estonian as currently. For sure TMR will be very disappointed in case if Tanak is leaving. Also what comes to Japanese culture, leaving from Japanese brand to Korean might be not looked well compared e.g. moving from Japanese team to other Japanese team.

Also the bashing of Mia is a little crazy to be honest. She is not the only one running the show. They've achieved a lot so far. Imagine if Toyota was still struggling to get a grip. It would be a boring season...

[mknight]

Yes they have achieved a lot, but Tänak leaving them now (if it happens) to a team that doesn't have clearly better car package is a huge fail.

Even more so if they will end up without any of the top 3 drivers.

[Katvala]

Either way it will be an interesting season. Then, Tänak can show whether his speed is due to the car as everyone claims, or if he can manage it in the i20 too.

Sent from my F8331 using Tapatalk

[ggg377]

Also the bashing of Mia is a little crazy to be honest. She is not the only one running the show. They've achieved a lot so far. Imagine if Toyota was still struggling to get a grip. It would be a boring season...

The arguments used in that post are nonsense. If employees are mass leaving a company in a short time, which explanation do you think is more likely, that all the employees collectively discovered that the salary level and cultural environment are not appealing in Estonia and Finland (the management explanation) or perhaps there is something toxic happening behind the scenes? As far as Mia, that is the problem that most insiders point to. You can't brush off Lappi's leaving like that either. His second half of 2018 was brilliant and yet he left it behind for an underperforming C3. I don't think Ogier will dive head first into that mess either. Lappi is his teammate and Tänak is his friend. He can ask TGR anything in the negotiations, because he has options and they don't. TGR had one job - keep Tänak and they bombed it.

[surdna]

Estonian media said that Ogier has 1+1 with Citroën but also the contract states that if he is not continuing with Citroën he is not allowed to go to any other team. Wondering is this true because theres a lot of rumours Ogier>Toyota, but it seems he cant go even if he would like to.

[Andre Oliveira]

Autosport.pt said the same. Clause anti-rivals.

[EstWRC]

The arguments used in that post are nonsense. If employees are mass leaving a company in a short time, which explanation do you think is more likely, that all the employees collectively discovered that the salary level and cultural environment are not appealing in Estonia and Finland (the management explanation) or perhaps there is something toxic happening behind the scenes? As far as Mia, that is the problem that most insiders point to. You can't brush off Lappi's leaving like that either. His second half of 2018 was brilliant and yet he left it behind for an underperforming C3. I don't think Ogier will dive head first into that mess either. Lappi is his teammate and Tänak is his friend. He can ask TGR anything in the negotiations, because he has options and they don't. TGR had one job - keep Tänak and they bombed it.

great post!

absolutely agreed, if two great drivers are willing to leave by their own in a year from a very good car, it must be something very wrong behind the scenes.

Im not saying its Mia, it can be someone else but something is definitely wrong there.

[er88]

As far as Mia, that is the problem that most insiders point to. You can't brush off Lappi's leaving like that either. His second half of 2018 was brilliant and yet he left it behind for an underperforming C3. I don't think Ogier will dive head first into that mess either. Lappi is his teammate and Tänak is his friend. He can ask TGR anything in the negotiations, because he has options and they don't. TGR had one job - keep Tänak and they bombed it.

Lappi is hardly a clear loss for Toyota and Makinen was never sold on him anyway, you could tell that by the dynamic between the two and the fact that Lappi didn't feel wanted/loved, so left for Citroen. Makinen speaks about how Kalle was ahead of Lappi and Suninen in 2016 when it came to testing the Yaris on a test stage in Finland, it's clear Kalle has been earmarked to be the chosen one at Toyota long term.

Lappi hasn't improved and you could also say gone backwards in some cases since his breakthrough season. The fact Toyota didnt keep him isn't a reflection on anything rotten at the team, it's just a consequence of the driver market and Tommi liking other drivers better (Meeke short term, Kalle long term, and Tanak being the main man in the team in 2018/19).

Drivers have been treated worse at other teams you could say, Meeke at Citroen, Paddon and Mikkelsen at Hyundai etc. The WRC is cut throat for everyone who is involved, whether its drivers or team personnel.

Lappi also agreed to go to Citroen a few months before Ogier did, he knew he couldn't establish himself at Toyota with Tanak dominating (and then Kalle coming in future), and at Citroen it looked like he could move to a team who wanted him more and where he could make it his own. Doubling/ tripling his money helped too.

[arx]

Either way it will be an interesting season. Then, Tänak can show whether his speed is due to the car as everyone claims, or if he can manage it in the i20 too.

And if Ogier goes to Toyota we have kind of comparison too, because we know Tänak's speed relative to his team mates. Not direct apples to apples but close enaugh.

[meh]

Why Neuville is happy to have Tänak in Hyundai - he may have hope, that Tänak can not get used to with car (fast enough) and he can be number one in the team and main competitor against Ogier for WDC.

[mknight]

Estonian media said that Ogier has 1+1 with Citroën but also the contract states that if he is not continuing with Citroën he is not allowed to go to any other team. Wondering is this true because theres a lot of rumours Ogier>Toyota, but it seems he cant go even if he would like to.

That sounds like a very very clever move by Citroen when signing him last year.



Lappi is hardly a clear loss for Toyota and Makinen was never sold on him anyway.

When he left in July 2018 he was way ahead of Latvala in standings and was clearly the hottest "young" name in the sport. That rest of his 2018 season was bad might be affected by him leaving.
Similarly his results in 2019 are imo not a confirmation, cause we simply don't know how he would have done in a Toyota and frankly it's hard to do worse than Latvala did in 2019. Until the engine failure in Spain Lappi was ahead of him too.

Anyway while there can be a discussion about Lappi, there can be absolutely no doubt that Tanak is (possibly) a huge loss.

[Allez Andruet]

Lappi is hardly a clear loss for Toyota and Makinen was never sold on him anyway, you could tell that by the dynamic between the two and the fact that Lappi didn't feel wanted/loved, so left for Citroen. Makinen speaks about how Kalle was ahead of Lappi and Suninen in 2016 when it came to testing the Yaris on a test stage in Finland, it's clear Kalle has been earmarked to be the chosen one at Toyota long term.

Lappi hasn't improved and you could also say gone backwards in some cases since his breakthrough season. The fact Toyota didnt keep him isn't a reflection on anything rotten at the team, it's just a consequence of the driver market and Tommi liking other drivers better (Meeke short term, Kalle long term, and Tanak being the main man in the team in 2018/19).

Tommi was the one who hired Lappi back in 2016 and wanted to keep him for 2019.

[racerx1979]

The arguments used in that post are nonsense. If employees are mass leaving a company in a short time, which explanation do you think is more likely, that all the employees collectively discovered that the salary level and cultural environment are not appealing in Estonia and Finland (the management explanation) or perhaps there is something toxic happening behind the scenes? As far as Mia, that is the problem that most insiders point to. You can't brush off Lappi's leaving like that either. His second half of 2018 was brilliant and yet he left it behind for an underperforming C3. I don't think Ogier will dive head first into that mess either. Lappi is his teammate and Tänak is his friend. He can ask TGR anything in the negotiations, because he has options and they don't. TGR had one job - keep Tänak and they bombed it.

Sounds like you know more than me!

[Allez Andruet]

Estonian media said that Ogier has 1+1 with Citroën but also the contract states that if he is not continuing with Citroën he is not allowed to go to any other team. Wondering is this true because theres a lot of rumours Ogier>Toyota, but it seems he cant go even if he would like to.

According to this (https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/139005/ogier-chooses-to-rejoin-citroen-for-2019) Autosport article from September 2018 Ogier's contract with Citroen is 2+1 (obviously we've learned later on that the option won't be exercised).

[EstWRC]

Tommi was the one who hired Lappi back in 2016 and wanted to keep him for 2019.

that makes Lappis leaving even more weird then.

i remember Lappi also saying, Id like to stay but....

we will never know that but.

[mknight]

Tommi was the one who hired Lappi back in 2016 and wanted to keep him for 2019.

It's not like he had many options in 2016... his original team for 2017 was Hanninen who only drove one rally in 2015 and his best ever WRC result was 6th place and Lappi who was the clearly best young driver and was just about to win WRC2 over Suninen.

The options came first at the end of the year when VW left.

[Allez Andruet]

It's not like he had many options in 2016... his original team for 2017 was Hanninen who only drove one rally in 2015 and his best ever WRC result was 6th place and Lappi who was the clearly best young driver and was just about to win WRC2 over Suninen.

The options came first at the end of the year when VW left.

Ofcourse the options were limited and we never know what would have happened with Lappi if the VW trio was available earlier in 2016, but I don't think it makes any difference. Nevertheless, Mäkinen offered Lappi a deal for 2019 (if not longer) which Lappi and team Even turned down.

[denkimi]

Why Neuville is happy to have Tänak in Hyundai - he may have hope, that Tänak can not get used to with car (fast enough) and he can be number one in the team and main competitor against Ogier for WDC.
I think neuville believes he has a better chance against tanak in the same car than he has to tanak in the toyota.

Which in itself says a lot about how he thinks about the hyundai compares to the toyota.

[AnttiL]

Nevertheless, Mäkinen offered Lappi a deal for 2019 (if not longer) which Lappi and team Even turned down.

This is just my own speculation, but I think they made a very low offer so they could say they offered him a seat, but it was something that no one would accept.

[T16]

Motorsport news also reporting Tänak has left.

[sinepikohv]

Motorsport news also reporting Tänak has left.

Who isn't?

It's awful that instead of his and Martin's title win, the contract speculation steals the headlines. Shouldn't be like that at all.

[AnttiL]

Motorsport news also reporting Tänak has left.

Isn't that the same media house as Autosport?

[T16]

Isn't that just copying articles from Autosport?

They are the same company, so probably, yes. My point was that they haven't retracted their position on it. I guess all will be clear soon enough.

[T16]

Who isn't?

It's awful that instead of his and Martin's title win, the contract speculation steals the headlines. Shouldn't be like that at all.

To be fair, the headline is that he is champion and that he has quit Toyota. You can't expect them not to mention it.... it's a pretty important thing.

[sinepikohv]

The headlines in Estonia: Tänak leaves, Grönholm says this and that etc. Of course, it's important and I get why this story is running on such high levels but it's not more important as them winning the title.

[EstWRC]

Who isn't?

It's awful that instead of his and Martin's title win, the contract speculation steals the headlines. Shouldn't be like that at all.

agreed

yes its quite sad actually :(

[T16]

The headlines in Estonia: Tänak leaves, Grönholm says this and that etc. Of course, it's important and I get why this story is running on such high levels but it's not more important as them winning the title.

They've simply reported it, as major news. There's no inference on their part that it's more important than the title. The title headline comes first. I guess it comes down to your interpretation of the headline.
Maybe Tanak is to blame?

[ggg377]

https://sport.delfi.ee/news/auto/wrc/maailmameister-ott-tanak-olen-tavaline-isa-kes-on-puhendnud-toyotaga-soitmisele?id=87919397


30.10.2019, 12:38
World champion Ott Tänak: I am an ordinary father who is dedicated to driving a Toyota

Fresh world champion of rally Ott Tänak has given an interview to the Spanish publication Marca. Journalist Nacho Villarin asked Tänak to describe himself. "I am an ordinary father who is dedicated to driving a Toyota. I am not the best person to describe myself," said Tänak. Of course he was asked about his employment in the coming season. "Most likely the solution will come in the next two weeks. Before Rally Australia it should be clear," declared the fresh world champion who has been tied to Hyundai by many publications. One topic was Tänak's popularity in Estonia. "Estonia is a small country. Everyone knows everyone. I don't feel like a star. Of course many Estonians follow rally, but I focus on my work. I'm not a hero. Of course it's interesting that an Estonian is the world champion of rally. Regardless, we have sportsmen who won in the Olympics and in much bigger sports disciplines," said Tänak while downplaying his achievement. The Spanish journalist inquired about his relationship with Dani Sordo. If the rumors are true, then Tänak and Sordo will be teammates in Hyundai. Tänak gave a quirky hint about Sordo. "I always liked him. He is one of the pilots I would like to collaborate with," admitted Tänak, how already requested last year for Sordo to be his teammate in Toyota. "He did excellent work when he was driving in Citroen. He has continued this in Hyundai. He has a lot of experience and he is friendly to everyone. I can't rule out the possibility that we will be teammates in the future."


His self-description is also interesting. It looks like they might be delaying the announcement even more. I can't take it anymore :D

[T16]

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/146879/could-toyota-move-for-ogier-after-tanak-moves

[ggg377]

Mäkinen says Tänak's possible move to Hyundai "damn annoying", no plan B, interested in Ogier

https://www.mtvuutiset.fi/artikkeli/miten-tommi-makinen-on-valmistautunut-jattimenetykseen-perhanan-harmittava-juttu/7607176

[BobJones]

Estonian media said that Ogier has 1+1 with Citroën but also the contract states that if he is not continuing with Citroën he is not allowed to go to any other team. Wondering is this true because theres a lot of rumours Ogier>Toyota, but it seems he cant go even if he would like to.


Autosport.pt said the same. Clause anti-rivals.

I'm not saying this will happen or it's possible with this particular contract, but he could retire on December 30th and un-retire in January. Something similar happened in car racing a few years back, V8 Supercars, when one driver wanted to switch teams even though he was contracted for next season already.

[sinepikohv]

They've simply reported it, as major news. There's no inference on their part that it's more important than the title. The title headline comes first. I guess it comes down to your interpretation of the headline.
Maybe Tanak is to blame?

I'm from Estonia and the news are 95% (okay, maybe a bit less but not a lot) focused on the contract. I know it's major news and it interests me as well but I just thought that the title win would change the main theme in the media. It was like that on Sunday afternoon but already from Monday morning the contract dispute or whatever became the main news like that. I just don't like the behaviour, that's all :)

[T16]

I'm from Estonia and the news are 95% (okay, maybe a bit less but not a lot) focused on the contract. I know it's major news and it interests me as well but I just thought that the title win would change the main theme in the media. It was like that on Sunday afternoon but already from Monday morning the contract dispute or whatever became the main news like that. I just don't like the behaviour, that's all :)

Ah, I thought you were on about the article i referred to!
Either way, it’s all major news.
Congrats on your champion then, you must be very happy!
Might be a long time before we can toast one from the UK!