2019 Austrian GP - Redbull Ring

[Nitrodaze]

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https://www.formulapassion.it/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/A1-Ring-Red-Bull-Ring-Austria.jpg

So far, the 2019 season has been a "walk in the park" for the Petronas Mercedes team. They have won all the races to date, with Lewis Hamilton winning six of the eight completed races. Valterie Bottas winning the other two. Ferrari and Redbull have no wins their names. But Freaky twists of fate has deprived Ferrari from those occasions where they had done all the work of comprehensively beating the competition but were stripped of the spoils and glory of winning the races. For some reason, Redbull are not quite where they were when they had the Renault engine this season.

The Austrian GP has not typically been a Hamilton circuit, though he has won it once in 2016. Bottas is usually very strong at this track, setting the fastest lap ever of the track at 1:03:130 during the 2018 qualifying. Bottas won the race once in 2017. Both Mercedes sere leading the 2018 race and were on course for a one-two race finish when a double DNF due to engine failure handed the race win to a grateful Max Verstapenn who was running in third. You would be interested to know that Vettel has never won this race.

The Ferrari has not been very good at this race in recent years, one wonders if it would be any different this weekend. However, it is another realistic opportunity for Redbull to win this race if Mercedes and Ferrari slip up. On shear pace, the Mercedes would be the car to beat this weekend. Only a mishap such as engine failure, tyre problems or act of God would cause them to fail to win this race. But which of the two Mercedes drivers is favorite to win this race? My money is on Bottas to get pole, but Hamilton to win the race. Bottas has been having quite a few bad starts recently, he would need to do something special to keep ahead of Hamilton this weekend. A Hamilton win would put 43 points between Hamilton and Bottas. A Bottas win would reduce the current gap to at least 29 points.

The fight for fourth would rage on this weekend, as Renault bids to level or surpass the ever improving Mclaren. The brilliant drive by Sainz and fiesty drive by Norris in a troubled car at Paul Ricard brought about an increase of the gap between Mclaren and Renault from two points to eight points. A repeat of the French GP form at the Redbull ring may see this gap increase further into double figures

https://imgr4.auto-motor-und-sport.de/Formel-1-Grid-Girls-GP-Oesterreich-2017-articleDetailWide-3da3b6d1-1101706.jpg

Even the twirly mustache of Carey Chase, looked well at home in the fine company of the Austrian grid girls.
https://c8.alamy.com/comp/P6E0B9/austria-30-june-2018-chase-carey-usa-chief-executive-officer-and-executive-chairman-of-the-formula-one-group-and-girls-during-the-austrian-gp-at-red-bull-ring-on-june-30-2018-in-red-bull-ring-austria-photo-by-mark-sutton-sutton-images-credit-motorsport-imagesalamy-live-news-P6E0B9.jpg

[Tazio]

Alright Mclerc on pole, but I think The Boss is going to overhaul him!

[Tazio]

I think The Boss is going to overhaul him!
With the 3 place grid drop, not likely! Sorrrrrrrrrrrry :dork:

[airshifter]

Well that was interesting. Leclerc was on fire all weekend so far, and it seemed like everyone was in search of a tow.

Max impressed, Lewis finally overcame Bottas on this track for qually and then paid the price for the earlier mistake. Kmag put in an amazing lap for the Haas car IMO, and will start 10th due to a gearbox change.

The youngest front row in the sports history.

Max and both Mercedes starting on the medium tires, everyone else on the soft. Hard to say which way that one will go.


But it is set up to be a crazy race.

[Starter]

With the projected heat tomorrow I suspect the softs will give up sooner than normal.

[The Black Knight]

With the 3 place grid drop, not likely! Sorrrrrrrrrrrry :dork:

He starts 4th but the penalty was deserved. A win is a bit unlikely now but, if anyone can do it, Lewis can. I would like to see LeClerc on top step of the podium tomorrow.

[Starter]

I agree with seeing LeClerc as the winner. It adds some good new blood at the top. Ferrari should now begin to consider Vettel as the number 2. It will also be interesting to see if Magnussen can show well in the race. Up to now, when the Haas cars have qualified well they have faded badly in the race. And Max - what can he pull out?

[journeyman racer]

Ferrari should consider Leclerc as no 1?

Overall, Vettel has been better this season. He's a ahead of Leclerc in the championship (Even if Leclerc had won in Bahrain). Head to head is 6-2 to Vettel.

Leclerc can bask in the glory if he wins tonight (Anytime he gets the better of Vettel) and in the goodwill he has from fans that Vettel doesn't have. But transferring "no1 status" to Leclerc from Vettel is something they should do if they want Verstappen to finish ahead of both their cars.

Not really practical when looking at it objectively.

[journeyman racer]

Hamilton gets a 3 place grid penalty. But ends up 2 places and 1 row behind.

Even when something bad happens to him, it's never that bad.

[N4D13]

I'm looking forward to the stewards not giving a penalty to Verstappen and Ferrari embarrassing themselves once more invoking their right of review. :p

What a cracker of the race. I'm gutted that Max nabbed it in the end, though. Leclerc really deserves to get a race win.

[The Black Knight]

I'm looking forward to the stewards not giving a penalty to Verstappen and Ferrari embarrassing themselves one more invoking their right of review. :p

What a cracker of the race. I'm gutted that Max nabbed it in the end, though. Leclerc really deserves to get a race win.

He deserves a race win but not that race. That was one of the best drives I’ve seen in many years from Verstappen- amazing and showcasing what an amazing taken he is. Ferrari can’t complain about that I’m afraid, Max had the racing line. If anything LeClerc deserved the penalty for turning in on Max.

[truefan72]

Hmm. Verstappen might be in a bit of trouble. Epic race though. So muxh for F1 being dead lol

On a side note. If he did push him off (imo he did) then he dors deserve a penalty. Despite sky f1 guys saying they don't want to see one, because it was an exciting race...but that's beside the point tbh. There is a difference between hard racing and simply pushing a competitor off the track

[N4D13]

I think we've seen this kind of pass many times already and it's something that the stewards let slide most of the time, so I would be extremely surprised if that got a penalty. It's a kind of racing I dislike and something that Verstappen does a lot (hence my dislike of him), but still I'm not expecting a penalty. On top of that, the sport look terrible if we had a second victory-deciding penalty in just three races.

Incidentally, I'm also gutted that Honda is getting another race win in F1 after they dragged McLaren to the bottom with their rubbish engines. Seems like they've upped their game, but it was too late for the Maccas.

And that was an amazing recovery drive from Sainz, who has been invisible today, but was only 4 seconds behind Norris a few laps before the end of the race until what I suspect was tyre degradation struck him. It's pretty impressive that he clawed his way back to 8th place anyway.

[truefan72]

He deserves a race win but not that race. That was one of the best drives I’ve seen in many years from Verstappen- amazing and showcasing what an amazing taken he is. Ferrari can’t complain about that I’m afraid, Max had the racing line. If anything LeClerc deserved the penalty for turning in on Max.

Everything verstappen did up until the leclerc pass was amazing. But your analysis of the incident is absurdly wrong. Max hit him twice and on the 2nd time simply pushed him off the track. That's not hard racing. Its borderline dirty racing. If he doesn't get a penalty we will all know why...for marketing reasons and thoae dutch fans

[truefan72]

Just watched multiple replays and it is beyond clear that verstappen really did push him off the track. The previous lap will be used as evidence. It's a shame though based on his drive but max continues to show a level of dirtiness that often overshadows his talent. This should be a clear cut decision but i fear the stewards will not act accordingly. Either way it was a great race and entertaining

[N4D13]

OK, after watching the replays, I now believe that was actually a clean pass. Verstappen had already got the inside line and was side-by-side with Leclerc, so it was overly optimistic of Charles to try and go for the outside line. Most of the time in these situation, the car being overtaken simply yields the position as they've already lost it. Leclerc tried to force the issue and ended up bumping wheels (could have been a hell of a lot worse). So as much as it pains me, I need to say this was a perfectly fine pass from Max.

[Duncan]

Great race! Will await the result of the inquiry, but I'm not expecting the positions to get switched. Max had the corner won, and I'm expecting they'll just say he was entitled to the exit of the corner.

Anyway, great performance from many today, not least from Lando Norris and Carlos Sainz. Really looks like McLaren is back for real.

[Bagwan]

Yes , Max was inside , but Charles was right beside him all the way around , so had the right to expect space to make the corner .

I hate to say it , but Max needed to leave him space , so his podium needs to be taken away from him .

The on-board from Max's car shows him turning in very late , and his reasoning in one of the interviews was that there is a small rise as you enter the corner inside that makes you light , and thus , he couldn't turn in earlier .
Now , while it's true that both should well know the character of this corner , it was Max that essentially ran too wide to allow for a car that he knew was beside him . Maybe he didn't expect him to still be there m but he was , and had every right to be .

If Max's reasoning is correct , he made a mistake at best , but went in knowing he would have to be wide on the way out , so how much of a mistake was it , really ?

[Duncan]

I guess we'll see what they decide; they're obviously taking the time to think about it. In any case, I think it will at most switch the top two steps of the podium. I can't see the stewards awarding more than a 5 second penalty, and Bottas was quite a way back.

[The Black Knight]

Everything verstappen did up until the leclerc pass was amazing. But your analysis of the incident is absurdly wrong. Max hit him twice and on the 2nd time simply pushed him off the track. That's not hard racing. Its borderline dirty racing. If he doesn't get a penalty we will all know why...for marketing reasons and thoae dutch fans

Max had the racing line, LeClerc could have conceded the corner at any point he wanted and had a run at him down the straight but he didn’t. Instead he turned in on Max when Mx had the corner. That’s racing, sometimes you touch wheels in battle and if the Stewards punish it then racing is dead in F1.

[henners88]

Seems a strange thing to say but nice to see my favourite driver not win for a change!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Zico]

Anyone else feel that the Stewards really need to be dealing with these investigations a lot faster?

I'd give the Stewards a 10 minute window to review only the existing footage of the incident and make as fast a decision as possible. Its really not fair on either of the drivers.. or good for the sport.

[The Black Knight]

Luckily the Stewards decided not to destroy racing snd Max keeps the win. Amazing drive from him. He’s showing all the hallmarks of one of the greats. F1’s future is bright.

[Nitrodaze]

I think we've seen this kind of pass many times already and it's something that the stewards let slide most of the time, so I would be extremely surprised if that got a penalty. It's a kind of racing I dislike and something that Verstappen does a lot (hence my dislike of him), but still I'm not expecting a penalty. On top of that, the sport look terrible if we had a second victory-deciding penalty in just three races.

Incidentally, I'm also gutted that Honda is getting another race win in F1 after they dragged McLaren to the bottom with their rubbish engines. Seems like they've upped their game, but it was too late for the Maccas.

And that was an amazing recovery drive from Sainz, who has been invisible today, but was only 4 seconds behind Norris a few laps before the end of the race until what I suspect was tyre degradation struck him. It's pretty impressive that he clawed his way back to 8th place anyway.

I think the Canada decision has created a real problem in F1 at the moment. For a start, it has caused most infractions that would normally attract a caution, to be punished squarely. Ricciado and especially Hamilton's three place grid drop, were not dangerous and should have been cautions from the stewards but were both punished at the full extent of the rules.

I heard Brundle say Verstapenn was entitled to that move as he had the racing line. Which l quite disagree, having the racing line is not an entitlement to shunt other cars off the grid. It was clear that on the second contact between Leclerc and Verstapenn, there was considerable force from the Redbull on the Ferrari. Clear enough to show that it caused the Ferrari to be forced off the track. There is also the argument that Verstapenn should have given Leclerc a cars width at that corner, which he didn't. But you can also argue the he was already on the racing line, hence has no obligation to yield the racing line which Leclerc was seeking to take from him at that corner.

Before Canada, this is one occasion that many would call hard racing but certainly not fair racing. But it is the sort of winning that we love to see in F1. But the rule book also frowns at contact that forces another car off the track and in another instance demand that both drivers must give each other a cars width while fighting for position through a corner. If the stewards are to maintain the consistency that has carried through to Hamilton via Ricciado, l fail to see how they would not penalized Verstapenn. This ruling is equally as controversial as the Vettel incident, as this is another occasion where a race win shall be taken away from another driver that has won the race on merit and has received the trophy through a formal ceremony. It is also at the home track of the Redbull; which incidentally is the reason that the ceremony appear to be performed quickly before the stewards had time to conclude their result; which places even further pressure on the very awkward situation.

Yes, this is a rulling that would attract stiff criticism whichever way the stewards decide to rule. If they rule this as a racing incident, they would be accused of inconsistency and anti-Ferrrari prejudice. If they rule against the Redbull, they would be adding one more disgruntled powerful team to a growing list of discontented recipients of the stewards decision. Like Ferrari before, they would be said to be killing the sport with rules.

The fact remains, once a precedent has been set, the stewards have to follow through with it, else they become a morkery to the sport.

[N4D13]

Well, the final decision is out. No penalty for Verstappen.

[Big Ben]

If Verpsychopath had the racing line than tough luck for Leclerc. Leclerc should learn that in and around the corners most of the track has esthetic purposes.

[Nitrodaze]

What a brilliant race by Verstapenn. At this race, Verstapenn has given very clear notice to Leclerc of what a task lies ahead of him, when the page of the next generation is turned over. When Hamilton and Vettel retires and Honda finally turns that corner and Redbull is no longer the 3rd best team.

I think we are in for an almighty rivalry and battle between these two. I have a strong feeling that Sainz, Norris and Russell would join this battle. The future of F1 is bright and very promising.

[Nitrodaze]

Luckily the Stewards decided not to destroy racing snd Max keeps the win. Amazing drive from him. He’s showing all the hallmarks of one of the greats. F1’s future is bright.

It is nice to hear that commonsense has finally prevailed, but Ferrari are going to feel the stewards have a prejudice against them. I personally think, it is time for a change of the stewards.

[Starter]

While Max had the racing line he is not entitled to force other cars off the track. Particularly when they are side by side. His obligation in a clean pass is to leave just enough room for the other car to remain on the track. He didn't and the stewards screwed up again just in the opposite direction. (Guessing they wanted to get out of Austria alive. :p)

[The Black Knight]

It is nice to hear that commonsense has finally prevailed, but Ferrari are going to feel the stewards have a prejudice against them. I personally think, it is time for a change of the stewards.

The Stewards are different in most races but this is not the same situation as Canada and I am surprised by the amount of seasoned F1 fans that honestly believe this deserved a penalty.

Canada was a slam dunk penalty that had to be dished out. People simply didn't like its impact and thus they threw the toys out of the pram.

Drawing similarities between here and Canada is total false equivalence. Max was had the racing line and he was 100% entitled to take it.

A better similarity would be to equate it to football. If I challenge for the ball, and I get the ball, but follow through on the player it’s not a foul because I got the ball. Here Max got the ball (the racing line) and simply followed through. LeClerc could have avoided it just as easily as the player being challenged could have pulled or jumped out of the challenge.

[Starter]

The Stewards are different in most races but this is not the same situation as Canada and I am surprised by the amount of seasoned F1 fans that honestly believe this deserved a penalty.

Canada was a slam dunk penalty that had to be dished out. People simply didn't like its impact and thus they threw the toys out of the pram.

Drawing similarities between here and Canada is total false equivalence. Max was had the racing line and he was 100% entitled to take it.

A better similarity would be to equate it to football. If I challenge for the ball, and I get the ball, but follow through on the player it’s not a foul because I got the ball. Here Max got the ball (the racing line) and simply followed through. LeClerc could have avoided it just as easily as the player being challenged could have pulled or jumped out of the challenge.
Have you ever raced on track? A clean pass means that you leave the over taken car just enough room to remain on the course. That did not happen here.

[Starter]

just to be clear, I wouldn't have taken the win away, but a several grid place penalty for the next race would be in order. That contact could have easily resulted in one of the cars on it's roll cage.

[Nitrodaze]

The Stewards are different in most races but this is not the same situation as Canada and I am surprised by the amount of seasoned F1 fans that honestly believe this deserved a penalty.

Canada was a slam dunk penalty that had to be dished out. People simply didn't like its impact and thus they threw the toys out of the pram.

Drawing similarities between here and Canada is total false equivalence. Max was had the racing line and he was 100% entitled to take it.

A better similarity would be to equate it to football. If I challenge for the ball, and I get the ball, but follow through on the player it’s not a foul because I got the ball. Here Max got the ball (the racing line) and simply followed through. LeClerc could have avoided it just as easily as the player being challenged could have pulled or jumped out of the challenge.

If you read my post carefully, you will not find anywhere a statement suggesting penalty is deserved. But simply that a penalty is applicable should the stewards wish to impose one. But l also indicated that discretion is open to the stewards should they wish to prevent a repeat of taking a win away from the proper race winner once again. My post was aimed at showing how hard they have made the situation and why it has become a lottery now they have ruled for Verstapenn.

Not all the stewards are changed for each race, there are elements of the stewarding team that are permanent or are frequently present. On the matter of similarity, similarity is not the issue here, if it was, Riciado and/or Hamilton should have got a warning. On the face of cold evidence, it would be hard to argue a solid case in defense of Verstapenn, his actions could easily be ruled an infraction of the rules. But in the spirit of pure racing, the right decision was taken. Hard racing should not be punished. It was reminiscent of the Hamilton-Rosberg fights of a few years past.

Starter's suggestion of a grid drop at the next race would have at least calmed the critics and Ferrari to an extent.

[truefan72]

Luckily the Stewards decided not to destroy racing snd Max keeps the win. Amazing drive from him. He’s showing all the hallmarks of one of the greats. F1’s future is bright.
ok so we can now establish the strong arming you opponent off the track to gain the position is ok. Just as long as we are all on the same page. I recall alonso getting a penalty for the exact move in silverstone a few years ago and in 2016 Rosberg was handed 10s penalty and two penalty points after collision with Hamilton on the last lap and was lucky to keep his 4th position. so now we know those werent' p[enalties after all right?

I heard Brundle say Verstapenn was entitle to that move as he had the racing line. Which l quite disagree, having the racing line is not an entitlement to shunt other cars off the grid. It was clear that on the second contact between Leclerc and Verstapenn, there was considerable force from the Redbull on the Ferrari. Clear enough to show that it caused the Ferrari to be forced off the track. There is also the argument that Verstapenn should have given Leclerc a cars width at that corner, which he didn't. But you can also argue the he was already on the racing line, hence has no obligation to yield the racing line which Leclerc was seeking to take from him at that corner.

Before Canada, this is one occasion that many would call hard racing but certainly not fair racing. But it is the sort of winning that we love to see in F1. But the rule book also frowns at contact that forces another car off the track and in another instance demand that both drivers must give each other a cars width while fighting for position through a corner. If the stewards are to maintain the consistency that has carried through to Hamilton via Ricciado, l fail to see how they would not penalized Verstapenn. This ruling is equally as controversial as the Vettel incident, as this is another occasion where a race win shall be taken away from another driver that has won the race on merit and has received the trophy through a formal ceremony. It is also at the home track of the Redbull; which incidentally is the reason that the ceremony appear to be performed quickly before the stewards had time to conclude their result; which places even further pressure on the very awkward situation.

Yes, this is a rulling that would attract stiff criticism whichever way the stewards decide to rule. If they rule this as a racing incident, they would be accused of inconsistency and anti-Ferrrari prejudice. If they rule against the Redbull, they would be adding one more disgruntled powerful team to a growing list of discontented recipients of the stewards decision. Like Ferrari before, they would be said to be killing the sport with rules.

The fact remains, once a precedent has been set, the stewards have to follow through with it, else they become a morkery to the sport.
Well politics won out at the end of the day tbh. it was a great race anyway. Even rosberg in his vlog admits that max was guilty of mischief on that last corner and that he deserves a penalty. It would have been an unpopular decision, but the right one. deliberately running your opponent off the track to take the lead was rewarded and it would really be interesting to read their reasoning. But here is the summary. Dutch fans, RBR home race, scared about overturning a race victory. I can guarantee you that if this was grosjean on perez, he would have been called in for a drive through or 10s penalty. lol

[truefan72]

on a side note, If Ferrari had put leclerc and vettel on mediums for Q2, then leclerc would have ran away with this win. The kid looked unbeatable for 69 of 71 laps and the fact that his tires degraded to the point where the pass was on is as much about another ferrar strategy blunder as it was verstappen's brilliant drive.

[The Black Knight]

Have you ever raced on track? A clean pass means that you leave the over taken car just enough room to remain on the course. That did not happen here.

Yes, internationally.

Both drivers were driving into a wedge. The overtake was done before they touched, LeClerc simply didn’t want to concede. That’s racing. As Vettel stated afterwards, this is not kindergarten.

[The Black Knight]

ok so we can now establish the strong arming you opponent off the track to gain the position is ok. Just as long as we are all on the same page. I recall alonso getting a penalty for the exact move in silverstone a few years ago and in 2016 Rosberg was handed 10s penalty and two penalty points after collision with Hamilton on the last lap and was lucky to keep his 4th position. so now we know those werent' p[enalties after all right?

Well politics won out at the end of the day tbh. it was a great race anyway. Even rosberg in his vlog admits that max was guilty of mischief on that last corner and that he deserves a penalty. It would have been an unpopular decision, but the right one. deliberately running your opponent off the track to take the lead was rewarded and it would really be interesting to read their reasoning. But here is the summary. Dutch fans, RBR home race, scared about overturning a race victory. I can guarantee you that if this was grosjean on perez, he would have been called in for a drive through or 10s penalty. lol

The Hamilton-Rosberg incident you refer to was also completely different because Hamilton had given Rosberg bundles of room to get around the corner and he didn’t take it. Hamilton had to turn in at some point and Rosberg paid a deserved price for his driving (or lack of it). If you believe Hamilton was at fault here then LeClerc was definitely at fault for the collision here as he was also on the outside of the corner, just as Hamilton was.

I don’t recall and Alonso incident at Silverstone that was the exact same moveas this. Have you a link?

[The Black Knight]

Karun Chandhok gives an accurate assessment



Here’s my view... Back in the day, the driver on the outside would have to back out and realise when he’s been beaten. Now, they can keep going, knowing that they can use the asphalt run off and then hope that the argument about “being squeezed off” wins in the stewards room....


That’s what LeClerc did.

[journeyman racer]

Not only do I disagree with TBK. He's wrong.


Yes, internationally.

Both drivers were driving into a wedge. The overtake was done before they touched, LeClerc simply didn’t want to concede. That’s racing. As Vettel stated afterwards, this is not kindergarten.
Both drivers were not driving into a wedge. Leclerc was because Verstappen missed the apex of the turn and did not have control of the inertia of his car. closed him off.

The overtake was not done and was still in the process of happening. Verstappen may've need til t3 to finally complete it.

Leclerc did not want to concede, and nor should he. As Verstappen was ahead at the point of contact, he was in the process of passing Verstappen on the straight or into t3. But was impeded by Verstappen who did not account for the inertia of his car.

It's not kindergarten. But F1/racing is not boxing either.



A better similarity would be to equate it to football. If I challenge for the ball, and I get the ball, but follow through on the player it’s not a foul because I got the ball. Here Max got the ball (the racing line) and simply followed through. LeClerc could have avoided it just as easily as the player being challenged could have pulled or jumped out of the challenge.
The ball is not the "racing line". The position is (1st/2nd place...). There's actually no such thing as a "racing" line. If there is, it's the whole track.

To use your analogy. Verstappen did not challenge for the ball. He attacked the player first (Hence he was nowhere near the apex), then got the ball.

What Verstappen did would be like corralling Leclerc halfway up the straight (Schumacher style). It's just it was at the beginning of the straight.

Karun Chandhok is wrong as Leclerc was not done. He was in the process of taking a faster exit of t2 (choosing a wider entry). Not only had Leclerc done that the previous lap. He'd actually been doing it throughout the race even when on his own. I saw it often and initially thought he made an error. But he was doing it deliberately.

[journeyman racer]

It's like with racing on ovals. T2 in Austria is a sharp right hander, and ovals are a long continuous turn even if they're referred to as two turns.

In oval racing, It's common to see the lead car take the high line entering the turn and stay there throughout. If a trailing car get them on the inside, then fine. But the trailing car can't ride up high exiting the t2 and encroach the car they're passing that's on that outside line.

[gm99]

I wonder how long Gasly will be in that Red Bull cockpit. One lap and six positions behind his team-mate in a potential race winning car is downright embarrassing, as were his pathetic attempts to get past Räikkönen.

[Nitrodaze]

Karun Chandhok gives an accurate assessment



That’s what LeClerc did.

I doubt Karun said that, if he did, it probably would be an indication of why he never won a race in F1. It is a fight, to give in so easily would have attracted criticism from us the armchair experts, the media and Ferrari the team. Besides, Verstapenn had not got the job done. He had to shunt Leclrec off the track to cement the lead.

I think the current stewards are shite, they should be sent home to tend the garden. Their decision was inconsistent and politically correct. The stewards have made a mockery of themselves and F1. I am not impressed with them at all. Now the rest of the season is open to fanciful decisions based on how politically correct the decision is or what the media has to say about it. Maybe they should sack the lot of them and put the sky F1 team in their place. They may have their heads in the cloud but they are at least consistent.

[Starter]

I doubt Karun said that, if he did, it probably would be an indication of why he never won a race in F1. It is a fight, to give in so easily would have attracted criticism from us the armchair experts, the media and Ferrari the team. Besides, Verstapenn had not got the job done. He had to shunt Leclrec off the track to cement the lead.

I think the current stewards are shite, they should be sent home to tend the garden. Their decision was inconsistent and politically correct. The stewards have made a mockery of themselves and F1. I am not impressed with them at all. Now the rest of the season is open to fanciful decisions based on how politically correct the decision is or what the media has to say about it. Maybe they should sack the lot of them and put the sky F1 team in their place. They may have their heads in the cloud but they are at least consistent.
You have it right. Consistency from the stewards is the most important part of their job. Otherwise no one ever knows what is OK and what isn't.

[henners88]

Karun Chandhok gives an accurate assessment



That’s what LeClerc did.

I watched the overtake (won’t call it an incident) a few times and I can’t believe it even reached the stewards to be honest. Hard but fair racing and thankfully the stewards didn’t cock this one up.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Starter]

I watched the overtake (won’t call it an incident) a few times and I can’t believe it even reached the stewards to be honest. Hard but fair racing and thankfully the stewards didn’t cock this one up.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Given the late turn in and apex (from Verstapenn's on board camera), I have to disagree. He failed to give reasonable racing room to Bottas. Late braking on an inside line is fine and will get you another position in many cases. But you can't just push another car off the track in doing so.

[Bagwan]

Masi said that they would do almost anything to keep the podium as it stood , barring technical infringement .
Rosberg got penalized , apparently because he turned his head to see his opponent coming from the left a few years back .
Max didn't look , so wasn't .
Max said he didn't turn left at all , to hold Charles wide , didn't open the steering , but he actually did , just a hair at one point .
Even if he didn't , what he did do was go straight , with another guy right beside him , entering a turn .

I love "hard racing" , with the Gilles/Rene-Dijon scrap being my ultimate favourite episode in the entire history of F1 .

But , this one sure looked to me to be a very clear breach of the modern rule book .
Max was not out of control , and had there been a wall there it would have been ugly .

He was inside , but not ahead .

Should reluctance to change an official result be taken into consideration at all ?

[Nitrodaze]

I watched the overtake (won’t call it an incident) a few times and I can’t believe it even reached the stewards to be honest. Hard but fair racing and thankfully the stewards didn’t cock this one up.


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If you watched the F3 and F2 races, you may have noticed that there were loads of side by side battles through that same corner with no incident. Why Verstapenn is unable to do the same baffles me. Verstapenn has a poor record when it comes to hard wheel to wheel battles. They all tend to end in a crash. Hence, he is still a loose cannon in these situations. It is an aspect of his racecraft that he still needs to improve. His unnecessary crash with Ocon last year in similar circumstance would be an example.

The stewards chose the lesser of two evils really, there was no acceptable decision to be made whichever way they could have chosen to go. Hence, the decision not to penalize Verstapenn was good for racing and what was needed for F1 at this time. But it is not without consequences. While l agree that the decision was the right one under the circumstances, it does not mean that l condone the actions of Verstapenn. Nor do l agree that he got away without a reprimand and a warning for an action that was at least 75% his fault. Hard fighting on Lecerc's part is portrayed by some as taking a risk, which amount to a share of some of the fault for the crash. They forget that he was not given the requisite cars width to prevent a collision. The more an argument for Verstapenn is attempted, the more clear it becomes that he carries a lion's share of the fault.

The decision now indicates that it is OK to bump an attacking car off the track as long as the culprit has the racing line at the time of the incident. It redefines the threshold of culpability in favor of the car with the slightest nose ahead and on the racing line. Unfortunately, this would kill hard racing at corners. Drivers are now inherently advised to back off if they are side by side but slightly behind in a fight going into a corner. How this makes for good racing is yet to be understood, but it clearly means that the car with the slenderest of nose ahead approaching the corner is blameless for whatever happens to the other car due to whatever action they may take in the corner. This includes shunting the other car off the track.

It might turn out to be an exciting element to future racing, especially for those that are missing seeing incidents in F1. We shall see more cars being knocked off track at corners in the future, until a fatality forces the stewards to revisit their decision.

[Nitrodaze]

The Verstapenn-Leclerc incident has overshadowed the fact that HONDA has finally won a race since their turbulent return to F1. Mclaren may be kicking themselve as they take the bitter pill of this event. It could have been a Mclaren on the podium, some may say. But l don't think that would have been the case. The Mclaren chassis is not as good as the Redbull chassis for a start.

Whatever the case, it must be a relief and a special occasion at the Honda factory this last weekend. Their hard work has not gone without notice in the face of previous brutal open criticisms and to some extent mockery. Now we begin to see signs that the car giant has set their sight on the leading pair; Mercedes and Ferrari with determination and intent.

Honda's success is also a blow to Renault, who is without a team with a chassis which is as good as the Redbull chassis. Hence, are lacking the level of information that is now available to Honda. From the engine manufacturers battle perspective, Renault is losing ground in the powertrain battle and reputation as well, especially with the poor showing of its recent engine upgrade that failed to show any impression on the opposition. That said, the Renault in the Mclaren is showing good pace but not enough to bother the Honda shod Redbull cars. But comfortably ahead of the Torro Rosso cars with the Honda engine. This may be due to chassis superiority more than engine superiority.


CONGRATULATIONS HONDA!

[henners88]

If you watched the F3 and F2 races, you may have noticed that there were loads of side by side battles through that same corner with no incident. Why Verstapenn is unable to do the same baffles me. Verstapenn has a poor record when it comes to hard wheel to wheel battles. They all tend to end in a crash. Hence, he is still a loose cannon in these situations. It is an aspect of his racecraft that he still needs to improve. His unnecessary crash with Ocon last year in similar circumstance would be an example.

The stewards chose the lesser of two evils really, there was no acceptable decision to be made whichever way they could have chosen to go. Hence, the decision not to penalize Verstapenn was good for racing and what was needed for F1 at this time. But it is not without consequences. While l agree that the decision was the right one under the circumstances, it does not mean that l condone the actions of Verstapenn. Nor do l agree that he got away without a reprimand and a warning for an action that was at least 75% his fault. Hard fighting on Lecerc's part is portrayed by some as taking a risk, which amount to a share of some of the fault for the crash. They forget that he was not given the requisite cars width to prevent a collision. The more an argument for Verstapenn is attempted, the more clear it becomes that he carries a lion's share of the fault.

The decision now indicates that it is OK to bump an attacking car off the track as long as the culprit has the racing line at the time of the incident. It redefines the threshold of culpability in favor of the car with the slightest nose ahead and on the racing line. Unfortunately, this would kill hard racing at corners. Drivers are now inherently advised to back off if they are side by side but slightly behind in a fight going into a corner. How this makes for good racing is yet to be understood, but it clearly means that the car with the slenderest of nose ahead approaching the corner is blameless for whatever happens to the other car due to whatever action they may take in the corner. This includes shunting the other car off the track.

It might turn out to be an exciting element to future racing, especially for those that are missing seeing incidents in F1. We shall see more cars being knocked off track at corners in the future, until a fatality forces the stewards to revisit their decision.

As I said I didn’t see it as an incident. I thought it was a good overtake .


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[The Black Knight]

I doubt Karun said that, if he did, it probably would be an indication of why he never won a race in F1. It is a fight, to give in so easily would have attracted criticism from us the armchair experts, the media and Ferrari the team. Besides, Verstapenn had not got the job done. He had to shunt Leclrec off the track to cement the lead.

I think the current stewards are shite, they should be sent home to tend the garden. Their decision was inconsistent and politically correct. The stewards have made a mockery of themselves and F1. I am not impressed with them at all. Now the rest of the season is open to fanciful decisions based on how politically correct the decision is or what the media has to say about it. Maybe they should sack the lot of them and put the sky F1 team in their place. They may have their heads in the cloud but they are at least consistent.

I should correct - he tweeted it rather than stated it live. How many F1 races have you won? If success in motorsport is a barometer by which opinions are condisered valid, I doubt yours would be as valid as Karun’s. On a side note, I also always felt Karun was a very underrated driver.

And the Sky F1 team? Honestly? Oh dear.

The Stewards decision is consistent and it is correct. There are plenty of cases in the past they have got it wrong but, I am sure glad they are finally getting them right this year. To be fair, I think the Stewards have been very consistent this year.

Here is the FIA transcript of the incident which aligns with my take on it, although if anything I think it was Charles obligation to back out, not Verstappen’s.



“Car 33 [Verstappen] sought to overtake car 16 [Leclerc] at Turn 3 on lap 69 by out-braking car 16. When doing so, car 33 was alongside car 16 on the entry of the corner and was in full control of the car while attempting the overtaking move on the inside of car 16.

“However, both car 33 and car 16 proceeded to negotiate the corner alongside each other but there was clearly insufficient space for both cars to do so. Shortly after the late apex, while exiting the corner, there was contact between the two cars.

“In the totality of the circumstances, we did not consider that either driver was wholly or predominantly to blame for the incident. We consider that this is a racing incident.

[Nitrodaze]

I should correct - he tweeted it rather than stated it live. How many F1 races have you won? If success in motorsport is a barometer by which opinions are condisered valid, I doubt yours would be as valid as Karun’s. On a side note, I also always felt Karun was a very underrated driver.

And the Sky F1 team? Honestly? Oh dear.

The Stewards decision is consistent and it is correct. There are plenty of cases in the past they have got it wrong but, I am sure glad they are finally getting them right this year. To be fair, I think the Stewards have been very consistent this year.

Here is the FIA transcript of the incident which aligns with my take on it, although if anything I think it was Charles obligation to back out, not Verstappen’s.

It is nice to hear your firm position on this one. I shall quote this post of yours to you in the near future. And yea, l would be crap at racing F1 cars which is why l do what l do. And f*cking rich at doing it.

[journeyman racer]

Michael Masi is not up to it. He's just going to make a bigger problem for everyone later on.




I love "hard racing" , with the Gilles/Rene-Dijon scrap being my ultimate favourite episode in the entire history of F1 .

The irony is that if it wasn't for Verstappen's cheap shot thuggery (He braked not to make the apex of the corner, but to cut Leclerc off), you might've seen the second edition of such a scrap.

[Bagwan]

Michael Masi is not up to it. He's just going to make a bigger problem for everyone later on.


The irony is that if it wasn't for Verstappen's cheap shot thuggery (He braked not to make the apex of the corner, but to cut Leclerc off), you might've seen the second edition of such a scrap.

Spot on , mate .
As Leclerc said , Max would likely have passed him anyway , so he wasn't angry about the loss , but about the way he lost .
I agree with him , too .

Masi called for the review , but wanted the results kept .

[Nitrodaze]

As I said I didn’t see it as an incident. I thought it was a good overtake .


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You miss the point, A good overtake would be one where there was a clean pass with the opposition helpless to defend but on track doing his level best. That would be the definition of hard and fair racing. What we saw was hard and dirty racing. I loved the hard bit, just not sure about the dirty bit. So you and l have very different view of what fair racing is about. But you are entitled to your opinion as am l.

[Nitrodaze]

Spot on , mate .
As Leclerc said , Max would likely have passed him anyway , so he wasn't angry about the loss , but about the way he lost .
I agree with him , too .

Masi called for the review , but wanted the results kept .

That is exactly what l thought as well. Leclerc tyres were gone and Verstapenn had fresher tyres. It was a matter of time, hence he did not need to muscle his way pass, he just needed to take his time to make a clean overtake without putting his car and both drivers at risk. That said, Verstapenn drove a majestic race. He was simply brilliant and a pleasure to watch. Hence, the criticism is not anti-verstapenn but an observation of those rough elements of his approach to racing.

[henners88]

You miss the point, A good overtake would be one where there was a clean pass with the opposition helpless to defend but on track doing his level best. That would be the definition of hard and fair racing. What we saw was hard and dirty racing. I loved the hard bit, just not sure about the dirty bit. So you and l has very different view of what fair racing is about. But you are entitled to your opinion as am l.

I like the aggressive drivers who aren’t afraid to close the door and I felt Max orchestrated the move perfectly to give Charles only two choices, back out or go off track. All the great champions have done this throughout their careers and I think Verstappen is showing the much needed ruthless streak.


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[Bagwan]

I like the aggressive drivers who aren’t afraid to close the door and I felt Max orchestrated the move perfectly to give Charles only two choices, back out or go off track. All the great champions have done this throughout their careers and I think Verstappen is showing the much needed ruthless streak.


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Charles only had the one choice , as he was right beside him .

Max , though , had the choice to turn in earlier , and allow a car's width , as per the rules .

[Starter]

Charles only had the one choice , as he was right beside him .

Max , though , had the choice to turn in earlier , and allow a car's width , as per the rules .
Absolutely correct. He was going to make the pass anyway and didn't need to bang wheels to do so.

[Nitrodaze]

I like the aggressive drivers who aren’t afraid to close the door and I felt Max orchestrated the move perfectly to give Charles only two choices, back out or go off track. All the great champions have done this throughout their careers and I think Verstappen is showing the much needed ruthless streak.


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You know what they say, what is good for the goose is good for the gander. When Verstapenn gets a similar treatment in the future, l hope he keeps his trap shut.

[The Black Knight]

Charles only had the one choice , as he was right beside him .

Max , though , had the choice to turn in earlier , and allow a car's width , as per the rules .

Incorrect. Charles could have conceded the corner he had clearly lost and tried to have a run at Max down the straight.

I’m sure glad none of the posters here whinging on about wheel banging are not in the Stewards room.

[henners88]

You know what they say, what is good for the goose is good for the gander. When Verstapenn gets a similar treatment in the future, l hope he keeps his trap shut.
He won’t because he’s an F1 driver and they all turn into children when a decisions or moves go against them. These guys are young too and have grown up being told how great they are so being magnanimous is often a skill that is lacking.

Good to see some racing after a long period of the sport being exceptionally dull. Not going to criticise it, more of it please.


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[Nitrodaze]

Incorrect. Charles could have conceded the corner he had clearly lost and tried to have a run at Max down the straight.

I’m sure glad none of the posters here whinging on about wheel banging are not in the Stewards room.

I really don't respect any driver that concedes a fight when the other driver has not had the job done completely. I doubt Verstapenn would have any respect for Leclerc if he had conceded and not forced him to have to force him off the track.

And you really fail to understand the discussion. Nobody is disputing the decision of the stewards here. The only points made are there should have been a warning to Verstapenn for forcing Leclerc of the track. Because failing to do so would legitimize forcing opponents cars off the track in similar circumstance in the future. Your argument that it was ok for Verstapenn to force Leclerc off the track is noted. But we all agree that the decision to allow Verstapenn to keep the win was the right thing. Where we seem to disagree is that the incident in question was questionable and needed at least a warning to prevent other drivers from thinking it is OK to do so in the future.

[journeyman racer]

Whether it's riding the kerbs and knocking Sainz out of the race in Bahrain, or completely missing the apex and barging Leclerc off last weekend (Or passing guys off track limits). Verstappen is a dirty driver who can't make genuine passing manoeuvres.

While I get henners and TBK have some sort of perception of what "racing" is (As if to say that "racing" is some sort of boxing match", when it isn't?). Both have demonstrated little appreciation of what "driving" is. TBK's suggestion of Leclerc backing off is not consistent with someone who likes "hard racing".

I think it's fair to say that a genuine, clean passing manoeuvre would be one where a guy passes another, and the overtaken driver can immediately pass back, only that he can't. Leclerc could easily have blasted ahead of Verstappen exiting the corner, but was shoved off by a guy who did not have control of the inertia of his car. anthropomorphize

They stewards should have a focus on clean driving. If they did, the great drivers would shine. But people have this perception that "racing" is akin to "fighting", when it isn't.

A weakness of a lot of fans, and in particular the stewards, is that they "anthropomorphise" car racing. Yes, there's a drivers in there having controlling the car. But instead of focusing on what the driver is doing, they should be focusing on what the cars are doing - Should the car be there and doing that? Yes, no, maybe.

But instead you get idiots like Masi focusing on what the driver does, and going to huge lengths to justify himself "When Verstappen late apexed. Vettel moved his head.." All he's doing is making himself look like a fool, and making it difficult for myself and others later on.

People might brush this off now. But there'll be other incidents later on. And they're just going to turn themselves in a knot.

[Bagwan]

Incorrect. Charles could have conceded the corner he had clearly lost and tried to have a run at Max down the straight.

I’m sure glad none of the posters here whinging on about wheel banging are not in the Stewards room.

Here lies the only real similarity to the Canada , Vettel/Hamilton situation .
Lewis backed out , seeing a driver careening across the track into his path , wisely judging that he would be risking too much , asserting his right to a car width outside of Seb .

Whereas , Charles didn't back out , seeing his rival in full control , without any sign of lock-up , judged that , by the rules , he was entitled to space for his car outside of the Red Bull .
Taking the wider line while staying level with your opponent is the only way to counter the inside dive .
If he gets there first , you do back out , but if you are level with him you have a right to space .

If he's sliding through , you back out and try to get inside him .
Charles had that option , it's true , but the best option against a guy under control is to try to compromise your competitor's line by keeping him tighter into the corner .

And , by the way , I would have been happy to see the wheel banging if it left both cars on track .

[henners88]

Here lies the only real similarity to the Canada , Vettel/Hamilton situation .
Lewis backed out , seeing a driver careening across the track into his path , wisely judging that he would be risking too much , asserting his right to a car width outside of Seb .

Whereas , Charles didn't back out , seeing his rival in full control , without any sign of lock-up , judged that , by the rules , he was entitled to space for his car outside of the Red Bull .
Taking the wider line while staying level with your opponent is the only way to counter the inside dive .
If he gets there first , you do back out , but if you are level with him you have a right to space .

If he's sliding through , you back out and try to get inside him .
Charles had that option , it's true , but the best option against a guy under control is to try to compromise your competitor's line by keeping him tighter into the corner .

And , by the way , I would have been happy to see the wheel banging if it left both cars on track .

I think the thought process was different between Lewis and Charles because in Canada there was a wall to be squeezed into and Lewis wasn’t going to risk that whereas in Austria it was worth the risk staying on the outside as there was a nice big run-off area. LeClerc made the mistake of assuming he could crash knowing or thinking the rules were on his side but the incident was judged differently. Verstappen is ruthless much like champions like Schumacher, Vettel, Rosberg, Hamilton etc who have all squeezed opponents off the track and put them in positions where they can make the decision to crash if not. Sometimes that mentality works and other times it falls foul of the stewards.

I think the sport needs some on track drama at the moment as it’s in a sorry state. It wouldn’t have bothered me if Verstappen had be penalised to be honest, I was just glad we saw a race where Mercedes didn’t win.


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[Bagwan]

I think the thought process was different between Lewis and Charles because in Canada there was a wall to be squeezed into and Lewis wasn’t going to risk that whereas in Austria it was worth the risk staying on the outside as there was a nice big run-off area. LeClerc made the mistake of assuming he could crash knowing or thinking the rules were on his side but the incident was judged differently. Verstappen is ruthless much like champions like Schumacher, Vettel, Rosberg, Hamilton etc who have all squeezed opponents off the track and put them in positions where they can make the decision to crash if not. Sometimes that mentality works and other times it falls foul of the stewards.

I think the sport needs some on track drama at the moment as it’s in a sorry state. It wouldn’t have bothered me if Verstappen had be penalised to be honest, I was just glad we saw a race where Mercedes didn’t win.


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Well , my friend , we are much closer to being in total agreement than I had previously thought .
You're absolutely right that the series needs some drama .
It's these incidents that draw people back to sites like this .
It's these debates that make it fun , although sometimes a little frustrating .

This incident seemed pretty clear to me , whereas the Hamilton one had a little more nuance to it .
Hamilton was never fully alongside Vettel in Canada , but it was judged as him having been forced off , and , fair enough . He had been forced off .

The issue I see with the two different scenarios comes from finding an out of control opponent compared to an in control one on the inside .
When they deemed that Vettel had regained control , stating he had looked in his mirrors before moving towards the wall , they used it to determine it was deliberate , and thus worthy of penalty .

They said Max had not looked over at Charles , and thus , since he didn't see him coming , he was not guilty of forcing him off track .
But , he was never out of control .
Whilst Charles was going for a move to squeeze Max inward , and tighter , Max deliberately took a line which left no room for a guy right beside him .

And , I believe that since he was even with him , Charles likely would have done the same thing even if there was a wall there .
But , with a wall there , I believe Max would have acted very differently , as his car would have been far more at risk .


I don't really care if Merc wins , actually , but I want to see them have to work harder to pull it off .

[Starter]

Max's move was less than smart for two reasons. First, as has been said earlier in this thread, he could have received a penalty for the contact. Second, and more important, any wheel to wheel contact carries risk to both cars. Should there have been damage to his car Max could be kicking himself as Bottas took an undeserved win from him. He reminds me a lot of (over here in NA) Paul Tracy in his younger days - fast but reckless. Perhaps he will mature with time.

[henners88]

The sad thing is the focus on the overtake has overshadowed the fact Honda power won a race in F1 too.


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[zako85]

Remember the famous incident between Pastor Maldonado and Lewis Hamilton at European GP 2012? Pastor Maldonado was given a penalty for the collision caused by unsafe reentry. However, I always thought that Lewis shouldn't have pushed Maldonado off the race track the way he did to begin with. However, it does seem like the stewards are consistent in the way that neither Hamilton nor Verstappen got a penalty for this. Check this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJe7GI9C7vU

[journeyman racer]

I'm going to have a go at that.

Hamilton is leading. He's on the inside. He's turning as normal into that corner, making the apex. He had no obligation to Maldonado as he was doing nothing out of the ordinary.

Maldonado was attempting a move on the outside. He had been momentarily ahead. but nothing definitive or with authority. There was no reasonable opportunity to pass Hamilton exiting the corner. He drove off the track and rejoined without consideration.

Leclerc was ahead. He stayed wide intentionally and didn't do anything to unfairly impede Verstappen.

Verstappen braked particularly later than normal. This act was not in the normal course of events. He had not attempted to make the apex of the kerb, and had done so to intentionally impede Leclerc. He hadn't had control of the inertia of his car or consideration for Leclerc.

Maldonado was belligerent. Verstappen was negligent.

Or maybe it's the other way around?

[airshifter]

Well that race delivered the unexpected now didn't it?

Qually was just all over the place with crashes and mistakes. Leclerc reigns supreme through the chaos, Max is third on the grid, KMag is in FIFTH place in a Haas, Lando right behind him, both Alfa's in Q3, and though not mighty enough to take pole Mercedes are still solidly in the game.

Then the lights go out, and the whole game changes as Max drops like a rock, along with everyone else gaining or losing all around him. By the end of lap 1 the only car in the same position they started was Leclerc, still in front. The entire field shuffled behind him with big losers and big gainers.

From that point on, there was action on track for more or less the entire race. The tire strategy came into play, some struggled to hold positions, and some were bold in gaining them. Along the way there was both some great defending and some great passes. Plenty of "guess the line" tactics throughout, and drivers showing how it can be done from the front defending, and from behind attacking. Kimi showed his experience defending against Gasly in a very superior car. Seb comes along and shows just how quick one of the faster cars can get into that mix. Ricciardo, though a terrible strategy IMO, holds off attacking drivers on tires that are 40+ laps into the race. Even as the last pit stops took place, the field was still moving around, and now fresh vs old tires kept things moving. The movers up front were Seb and Max, and they were making some for some clean and exciting racing.

The charge Max made was strong, and those fresh tires were really working. He was watching the lines, figuring out the drivers we was overtaking, and making it work. Max vs Seb was great on the part of both drivers. Bottas made it a little too easy, but really Max was so late on the brakes that the position was already gone. Then the charge to catch Leclerc.


And then IMO, Max blew it. He lost his composure he had in all the previous passes, and even the start of the fight with Leclerc. Lap 68 was more great attacking by Max, and defending by Charles. But the pass that happened just showed me that Max is still capable of losing his calm and playing dirty. Up until that point he did everything right, and there is no doubt in my mind that he could have made a clean pass on Leclerc, just like he did with everyone else. But instead he chose to force a bad line, the same one that failed in the previous lap, but instead went in deep enough to bump his opponent off track. The delay in the decision, the controversy over penalties, etc... all of his own doing if you ask me.


But apparently Formula 1 is boring anyway. :laugh:

[melaniepss]

It was clear that on the second contact between Leclerc and Verstapenn, there was considerable force from the Redbull on the Ferrari.