Formula 1????

[steveaki13]

I am writing making this thread because I think my time has come to stop watching F1. I have watched it since the mid 1990s and I am watching the sport these days thinking "why am I watching it?" I used to be buzzing and excited for a whole weekend. Now I honestly see nothing exciting or interesting in most races. Occasionally one is OK but the sport in my opinion is dying.

I watch BTCC and even lower level single seaters as well as World Endurance and Le Mans. The racing is a lot more pure. It is men in cars racing, pushing hard and making errors and being punished for doing so.

I look at F1 and it is missing almost every element of good motor racing. Men battling with their cars, the art of defending (not really possible now), pushing hard in races, overtaking that means something and not DRS bullshite. No spins, no collisions and not retirements.

People on TV coverage in the UK seem to do all they can to come up with ways to convince the stupid fans the racing is good. Today its that Hamilton is on a knife edge with problems and will he win or not. Now 10 seconds clear of everyone else.

They all say its great we don't loose cars from the race and still have 20 runners. I couldn't agree less. Some of the best races I have watched have had 6-10 finishers. The fear of collisions and crashes puts me on edge and the survival element. Which drivers can not make any mistakes and keep it on the road was always part of motorsport but now F1 is mostly run on huge car parks like Paul Ricard today. So any mistakes are not punished. The fact that cars dominated in the past was not always an issue as they may be unreliable and so the tension of getting a car to the finish was exciting. Now hardly any cars have issues.

All of these things have taken away from the racing. Now we have 6 cars up front in the same order as lap 2 with the drivers all cruising around saving tyres. Its rubbish. No close racing, no tension and no interest.

Then every move is looked at and penalties because he came back on track unsafely blah blah. I would have race tracks with gravel round and if drivers make mistakes they are out of loose time. It promotes steller driving and no mistakes.

Technology also sadly seems to make it worse. The cars are so reliable now as I said. It is no fun.

So I think that my interest in proper motorsport must now take me away from F1. I used to post on here regularly but the lack of interest has lead to me not visiting much.

So I wondered without driver bias and grudges to affect thinking. I want to ask. Do you guys who still watch and have watched for years like me feel the same? Do you really enjoy these races? Or all the sterile action we have?

Maybe its just me but from a sport I would get up in the middle of the night to watch with butterflys in my stomach and re watching most races 1996-2008 many times, I now find myself barely wanting to watch. This is not all about being angry at the sport but rather sad. I feel so sad that the sport I once loved is so awful.

Anyway. I have said what I feel. I wondered what anyone else though.

[The Black Knight]

I see where you’re coming from. I think that 2021 may bring the sport back to a better place as long as the rules are right. Currently cars lose 50% downforce when running behind each other, whereas the cars in the win tunnel for 2021 are only losing 5%. But yes, I must say this season is fairly dull so far. Ferrari have been so disappointing and that’s reallt hurt the sport.

[gm99]

@steveaki13, I fully agree with you. F1 races used to be a bi-weekly Highlight for me, and I used to plan my activities around the F1 calender. Nowadays, I might watch it if I'm at home like today, but I certainly wouldn't postpone any other activities for it.

Drivers aren't even going flat-out all the way, just when they are given permission by their engineers. No wonder there are so few retirements when cars aren't being run to their limit.

[steveaki13]

@steveaki13, I fully agree with you. F1 races used to be a bi-weekly Highlight for me, and I used to plan my activities around the F1 calender. Nowadays, I might watch it if I'm at home like today, but I certainly wouldn't postpone any other activities for it.

Drivers aren't even going flat-out all the way, just when they are given permission by their engineers. No wonder there are so few retirements when cars aren't being run to their limit.

Thanks. Glad I am not the only one. I think there is a bit of a stigma about saying you like crashes etc, but while I never want anything major, most of the classic races involve them. They add to the spectacle.

[Starter]

steveaji13, I also agree. I've been involved in motorsport a long time and still am. But my interest now is more in the local racing. I haven't been to a F1 event in many years and have no plans for going in the future either. It's much more fun to watch the lower professional groups and especially the amateurs where $$$ doesn't rule everything. Indycar is still sort of OK because it's at least competitive, but I have no use for much else in terms of professional racing.

[Bagwan]

No , I don't agree , Steve .

Sure , F1 has issues , but it has always been thus .

I , for one , am still in awe of the technology that goes into it , and the skill requiring everyone to be as close to perfect as they can be , or suffer the consequences .
I don't like DRS , but all of them must deal with that variant in the rules equally .
The same goes for the tires .

Having lived through the Red Shoe era , where everyone and their uncle was whining about the domination , it just sounds all so boring to hear people whining about the same thing now .

The winners aren't the only people in the race , you know .

And , there in the background is the looming rule shuffle , in which a few of the issues you have with F1 are being addressed .

I've been watching F1 since the time when we only got Monaco on TV here , and have always been in awe of the speed , the tech , and the drivers .


No disrespect , Steve , but while Lewis was dominating the race , I was still sitting in fine Murray Walker form on my couch knowing anything can happen in formula 1 , and it usually does .
I was remembering the smoke out the back of Bottas's car on the way the the grid . I was wondering if Lando's car would pop for a safety car stint . I was watching the tire blistering on a few cars .

I would have liked a few more incidents to occur , to mix it up , and to liven this place up , like Montreal did , but I still enjoyed the race .

And , even though there are things worth changing about the series , like there always are , I still enjoy the show .

[N. Jones]

Yeah, I did a "huh?" face when Brundle said that. Everybody in the race means we get to watch half the field get lapped. While the mid field has been a good place for battles, collisions, and punishments for mistakes the race lead has been a given for many years now.

[djip]

Thanks. Glad I am not the only one. I think there is a bit of a stigma about saying you like crashes etc, but while I never want anything major, most of the classic races involve them. They add to the spectacle.
Well I cannot agree more. Not only these days i don't sit in front of the TV anymore, but I sometimes don't even dare looking at anything else than a quick written race summary on the evening. When i was young(er), in the 70's the racing was so exciting, , cars would slide, drivers would do mistakes (missed gear = blown engine), drivers could win starting fro the back of the grid ... I think the sport went completely sideways : too much engineering (who cares of all this technical crap ?), too much pit-managing (telemetry + radio = as much as it takes a lot of skills to drive these beasts, the driver is now a passenger of "strategists"), too many rules (all these penalties, investigations, ... are ridiculous - if it's a sport, let the guys fight and make them respect each other, not whine constantly) - not too expensive (=lerading to the utter domination of the richest).
the solutions are so simple that i cannot even understand why they are not implemented immediately
- cost cap - this is how the US pro sports have managed to level the field. Sure, the big spenders were unhappy when it was implemented, but a governing body should ... govern. And whoever is unhappy is free to leave. The way they are planning to implement the cap now (1) pretty high = much higher than all the midfield's budget and 2) excluding so many things that i the end it may well double up) is totally ridiculous. If you want to pay an engineer or a driver tons of money, it is your choice, but then you have top cut expenses elswhere. After all, this is a team game, not different from any other sport.
- no more radio, at least not anymore from the wall to the cockpit (the other way around maybe for safety purposes ?). This will force drivers to make their own decisions... and guess if something is wrong with the car.
- no more "5 second penalties". Set the rules and it is either fine, or you are disqualified. I am sure drivers will quickly self-disciplin themselves. Eventually have drivers sit out one race as a penalty - this will allow seing new faces (aka test drivers who spend millions just to run the simulator).
- talking of simulator, why placing a ban starting on race week ? Having Ocon in the simulator until saturday evening in Brackley is not very exciting to the casual fan and is not making all teams equal ...
The list could go on forever - I thought Liberty would clean the mess and start fresh, they seem to be now passengers of their own business...

[BigWorm]

The technology that goes jnto F1 is very fascinating, but it's getting pretty boring. Very rarely does it produce pure racing and that's the most essential part of motorsport. I'm losing interest in this season, I don't want to say I'm going to boycott the sport in hope of a better future (naive as I probably am) but this season is really, really predictable and that's no good thing.

[truefan72]

Yeah, I did a "huh?" face when Brundle said that. Everybody in the race means we get to watch half the field get lapped. While the mid field has been a good place for battles, collisions, and punishments for mistakes the race lead has been a given for many years now.

I think this race the tv crew were pretty good about highlighting the rest of the field and not giving hamilton, bottas, leclerc and verstappen that much screen time.
t was a tough call at the end to focus on leclerc v bottas fight as it was for podium, instead of the thrilling norris,ricciardo, kimi, hulkenberg scrap.
And they did allot enough time for all the other action, except for the williams battle, which would have been nice to see and let folks understand that even with the lowly williams, these guys are still jousting at incredible speeds.

[zako85]

The problem with the track limits and the penalties is due to the fact that, thanks to the prevalence of mickey mouse race tracks, the track limits are no longer where the physical race track ends. In the old days, there was no need to police track limits on many venues because outside of the track limits there was grass or sand. Put your wheel over there, or both, and your car will get seriously unsettled, wheels will get dirty, and in fact you may get stuck in the kitty litter and your race is over! But in our days, cars that put the wheels outside of track limits will always return back to the race, and in fact, as we often see, while gaining an advantage! This issue is not easy to fix. I mean it's unlikely that the pavement around the track limits will be torn apart just to return to "pure racing". This is why there are penalties.

Another problem is the power unit reliability rules. These were ostensibly introduced to reduce the costs of engine supply. However, seeing now that the cost of engine supply is still often the biggest bill paid by the privateer teams, the cost savings from this are doubtful. However, the unintended result of these rules is the incredible reliability of cars. We no longer see cars blowing blue smoke and catching fire on regular basis. This combined with the mickey mouse tracks that don't naturally punish drivers for veering off track limits results in very little attrition and unpredictability. In 1980s and 90s, there were often races with just barely a dozen cars finishing. In some races barely six cars saw checkered flag. Some backmarker cars could ended up scoring points and even podiums when they were reliable enough.

And finally, the DRS, the king of slingshot overtakes has greatly reduced the amount of close racing and heroic drives. It seems among these three issue only the DRS/aero could be somehow reworked or changed.

[truefan72]

No , I don't agree , Steve .

Sure , F1 has issues , but it has always been thus .

I , for one , am still in awe of the technology that goes into it , and the skill requiring everyone to be as close to perfect as they can be , or suffer the consequences .
I don't like DRS , but all of them must deal with that variant in the rules equally .
The same goes for the tires .

Having lived through the Red Shoe era , where everyone and their uncle was whining about the domination , it just sounds all so boring to hear people whining about the same thing now .

The winners aren't the only people in the race , you know .

And , there in the background is the looming rule shuffle , in which a few of the issues you have with F1 are being addressed .

I've been watching F1 since the time when we only got Monaco on TV here , and have always been in awe of the speed , the tech , and the drivers .


No disrespect , Steve , but while Lewis was dominating the race , I was still sitting in fine Murray Walker form on my couch knowing anything can happen in formula 1 , and it usually does .
I was remembering the smoke out the back of Bottas's car on the way the the grid . I was wondering if Lando's car would pop for a safety car stint . I was watching the tire blistering on a few cars .

I would have liked a few more incidents to occur , to mix it up , and to liven this place up , like Montreal did , but I still enjoyed the race .

And , even though there are things worth changing about the series , like there always are , I still enjoy the show .

Yup, My sentiments exactly.
Especially since i came on these boards around 2005, when we were still in the midst of total ferrari domination. and some of these very same posters (including ioan ) were singing the praises of ferrari, msc and that other teams need to step it up. Then we went through the Alonso years, the mclaren ferrari domination from 2007-2008, brawn blowing away the field in 2009, the absolute redbull dominance from 2010-2013, and now the mercedes era. It is only in the latter that these same guys now are bitching about the dominance and threatening to retire from watching F1.

It is not as if FIA haven't tried to throw all kinds of changes to essentially strip the mercedes dominance. It's also not as if it has been a red bull, williams or ferrari absolute domination for the entirety. 2015 & 2016 were dominant and 2019 is still to be played out, (where everyone was sure ferrari had their number with yet more rules changes and missed opportunities in bahrain and china).

The mercedes cars were not bulletproof in 2018 with RBR taking 4 victories amd Ferrari 6. If it were not for the meltdown at Ferrari and Vettel, 2018 could have been theirs in both championships.

In 2017 Ferrari had 5 wins and RBR 3 wins. Vettel unraveled and the singapore madness saw the incident with all top cars of kimi vettel and verstappen get into a first corner incident, with clearly a slower mercedes picking up the points. BTW Vettel was leading the championship going into that race.

I just find it tiresome with this constant talk of F1 not being the same anymore from a race day perspective, when the reality is that, at worst, this has been the same script written throughout it's history and most of the folks complaining have been along for that ride the whole time. This notion that the races are not entertaining because the podiums seem out of reach for the vast majority of the field is really quite comical as this is pretty much the case in every league around from the beginning of time. from lemans, to motogp, to rally, superbikes, WTTC etc.

oh well

[Starter]

Much of what ails the top levels of racing can be summed up in one word - aero. While the introduction of wings brought new ideas, experimentation and innovation to racing, over time it has also contributed greatly to taking the on track action out of the driver's hands and putting it into the engineer's. There are now gimmicks to correct aero like DRS and "push to pass" which add nothing and are obvious band aids. Take wings off the cars and you'll see cars where drivers have much more input and control over the vehicles. Passing zones will open up more and the actual racing should be better.

[Bagwan]

I remember , long ago before CFD , Brundle remarking about how fast the drivers were still able to go without various pieces of the aero kit , having busted them off over curbing somewhere .
It was a jab at how much money was spent on such things , back when there was much more guessing involved .

It brings to mind Enzo's remark that "aerodynamics are for those who can't build engines " .
And that brings to mind the thought that a part of the "bullet-proof" issue we have , with only rare failures further ensuring the order stays static often , is the rule that states they may only use 3 without penalty .
With a budget cap , perhaps they could do away with the limit , or at least relax it a bit , so we might see them turn the wick up now and then .


The one thing I see that I really like in the new rules proposed is the loss of tire warmers .
That brings in a new , old skill .

[truefan72]

I remember , long ago before CFD , Brundle remarking about how fast the drivers were still able to go without various pieces of the aero kit , having busted them off over curbing somewhere .
It was a jab at how much money was spent on such things , back when there was much more guessing involved .

It brings to mind Enzo's remark that "aerodynamics are for those who can't build engines " .
And that brings to mind the thought that a part of the "bullet-proof" issue we have , with only rare failures further ensuring the order stays static often , is the rule that states they may only use 3 without penalty .
With a budget cap , perhaps they could do away with the limit , or at least relax it a bit , so we might see them turn the wick up now and then .


The one thing I see that I really like in the new rules proposed is the loss of tire warmers .
That brings in a new , old skill .

I agree Bagwan, except, i do like tire warmers. because I'd rather see decent racing than an incident because the cold tires couldn't be switched on on certain tracks.
I would scrap the engine rule. not because it would promote faster cars ( these cars are breaking all track records in terms of speed anyway) but because of the stupid penalties that are levied on drivers.
I'd also say that the gearbox and other component penalties need to be removed, or at least doubled to avoid more undue penalties.

I think this iteration of the cars are pretty decent and with all the complaints about overtaking, are still capable of closing in on a car and passing them.
The problem is more with some of the tracks in my opinion.
some need to be a bit wider IMO
and bring back Malaysia. lol

[N. Jones]

Is this really a problem or is it a problem because we are going through one-team domination a-la Ferrari in the early 2000's?

[Starter]

Is this really a problem or is it a problem because we are going through one-team domination a-la Ferrari in the early 2000's?
Both?

[N. Jones]

ioan - whatever happen to that person?

[N. Jones]

Both?

I don't know. One-team domination seasons are boring. People want to see actual fights for the lead and/or podium places. I think one thing that would help is dropping the points back to sixth. Half of the grid scoring just rewards mediocrity.

[cossie123]

There really only is 3 teams in formula1 just now but thats happened for years too, the other 7 teams are just making up the numbers, red bull know they cant challenge mercedes so redbull are snapping at ferraris heels, williams have lost the plot aswell.

The last exiting year for formula 1 for me was 2012, that season had everything and since the hybrid era things have not been great but i still watch it and i will continue to watch f1, maybe liberty media has messed things up since they took over in 2016 too, maybe the driver is given a lot less to do now which is the reason its not as exiting who knows but the new rules in 2021 could make a difference.

On a side note with mercedes dominating, does anyone have an idea why, its just that i think ferrari and redbull seem to be ran very well, its obviously a mercedes f1 team secret how they are doing it but one thing i can think of is the length of the mercedes, its the longest car out there, in rallying which is a completely different motorsport you need small nimble cars mostly these days but with f1 i,m wondering if the extra length is giving the car more downforce and the edge over the other cars, just speculating ofcourse.

[Nitrodaze]

Disillusion about F1 threads happens nearly every season that has gone stale. Lets face it, this season is as stale as it can get. That is primarily for two reasons; firstly, Ferrari flexed their muscles in winter testing but turned up at the races with a car that really is second best. Secondly, the pirelli tyres are shite. It is not consistent, hence sometimes it suits a team at one race, the next race they are head scratching about where the pace went.

F1 is still very exciting because the midfield is where the racing is at. And it has not disappointed this season.

[Starter]

I don't really agree with that. I've been slowly losing interest over the past several years and others have too as some of the comments in this thread prove.

[The Black Knight]

I don't know. One-team domination seasons are boring. People want to see actual fights for the lead and/or podium places. I think one thing that would help is dropping the points back to sixth. Half of the grid scoring just rewards mediocrity.

Fully agree. That’s always been an bug bear of mine that 50% of the grid gets rewarded points. Top 6 drivers scoring points is better. I remember Marussia scoring their first points, I couldn’t help but think well, ye’d still be pointless under the top 6 points rewards system.

[Nitrodaze]

I don't really agree with that. I've been slowly losing interest over the past several years and others have too as some of the comments in this thread prove.

People say things like there are no crashes anymore, cars don't brakedown any more. The absence of these things are due to the maturity of the sport. Drivers have got better at avoiding crashes but it still happens. Manufacturers have got better at building highly resilient engines and parts. This essentially is progress.

Where l mostly agree with you is that, there is no proper fight for the lead and podium places in F1. Close quarter racing is still impossible. And Mercedes has taken team efficiency to another level. Even with a car that appeared to be down on straight line speed compared to the Ferrari, they have produced a car that is faster over a whole lap than the Ferrari. So the one team domination continues.

Paul Ricard circuit is probably one of the few tracks that do not punish drivers for going off track. This is not the norm.

I would say that the 2021 season may offer the answer to many of your disillusions. As close quarter racing will be the norm. Winning would be harder. One hopes the Honda engine would be on par with the Ferrari engine by then. This would put Verstapenn squarely in the fight at the front. What can be more exciting than that.

[Bagwan]

Are we even half-way through the season yet ?

The Merc can still break down . We haven't seen any of that yet .
The reds could catch up . It would only take an update that actually works .
And , lets not forget that Newey still works for the bulls .
None of the rest are standing still , either .

Damn , you guys .
It aint over 'til it's over ya know .
They aren't that far ahead .

The defeatist idea that we just have to survive until 2021 is too much for me , I'm afraid .
I am quite sure we'll see a lot of good racing before then .

[N. Jones]

Oh, I'll keep watching, hard to run the fantasy stuff without watching a race! I just think this is the Merc dominance decade and it will end like all others before it did.

[Nitrodaze]

I think people forget that there has been some great seasons recently. 2017 and 2018 were two great seasons. 2018 in particular was hard for Mercedes. Some even thought Ferrari had it in the bag before a series of errors let Mercedes off the hook.

We all expected Ferrari to take things to a higher level from where they left off in 2018, but that has turned out to be a possible farce. You could argue that Ferrari put their season at risk by sacking their racing director just before the season commenced. Such a dramatic change is bound to have some impact on morale and focus. There is no good time for doing such a thing anyway. Personally, l would let the man who pulled Ferrari from the doldrums of win less years deliver on his promise.

Mind you, Mercedes had a double DNF at the Austrian race last season, chance are history may repeat itself at this weekend's race. I have a feeling, the bulletproof Mercedes engines would finish the race without any problems.

[journeyman racer]

It is not as if FIA haven't tried to throw all kinds of changes to essentially strip the mercedes dominance.
Like what?


In 2017 Ferrari had 5 wins and RBR 3 wins. Vettel unraveled and the singapore madness saw the incident with all top cars of kimi vettel and verstappen get into a first corner incident, with clearly a slower mercedes picking up the points. BTW Vettel was leading the championship going into that race.
Hamilton led the championship standings from Vettel, 238-235.

[Firstgear]

People say things like there are no crashes anymore, cars don't brakedown any more. The absence of these things are due to the maturity of the sport. Drivers have got better at avoiding crashes but it still happens. Manufacturers have got better at building highly resilient engines and parts. This essentially is progress.

Where l mostly agree with you is that, there is no proper fight for the lead and podium places in F1. Close quarter racing is still impossible. And Mercedes has taken team efficiency to another level. Even with a car that appeared to be down on straight line speed compared to the Ferrari, they have produced a car that is faster over a whole lap than the Ferrari. So the one team domination continues.

Paul Ricard circuit is probably one of the few tracks that do not punish drivers for going off track. This is not the norm.

I would say that the 2021 season may offer the answer to many of your disillusions. As close quarter racing will be the norm. Winning would be harder. One hopes the Honda engine would be on par with the Ferrari engine by then. This would put Verstapenn squarely in the fight at the front. What can be more exciting than that.
I just want to address the parts I've high lighted. I have to disagree with you here. The absence of breakdowns has nothing to do with the 'maturity of the sport' as you say. It has to do with the FIA's attempt at parity and cost savings. Progress? The teams have been restricted from progress. Ten years ago or so, engine rev's were increasing every other year. That was progress. Now they are restricted to an upper limit. Without that limit, they'd be revving at over 20,000rpm these days. That would be the cutting edge - progress. Sure, they would blow more often, but that's exactly because they'd be at the edge. Now, everybody runs at 80% so they can make the engines last 5 or 6 races. Party mode takes us to 85%. The engineers must be extremely frustrated. Someone once said something like 'The perfectly engineered race car is the fastest one that breaks down right after the finish line and anything more is over engineered." Well today's F1 cars are closer to passenger car reliability than F1 cars of the past because they are so far from the edge.
Here's an analogy for you: (all hypothetical - I don't do long distance) A few friends and I are marathon runners. We train quite a bit and some of us can finish under three hours on occasion. When we push this hard, sometimes we set new personal bests, but sometimes we may pass out or collapse and not finish the race. Our wives say this is too costly and dangerous for us. They've said that if we want to continue running, we need to keep our heartbeat below 120 bpm. So now we all finish very closely to one another at about the five hour mark. We finish virtually every race - no one is collapsing and some aren't even breathing very hard. Some of us say that we have matured in our sport and that this is essentially progress. To those I say 'We are no longer racing, but merely going for a leisurely run.'

[Nitrodaze]

I just want to address the parts I've high lighted. I have to disagree with you here. The absence of breakdowns has nothing to do with the 'maturity of the sport' as you say. It has to do with the FIA's attempt at parity and cost savings. Progress? The teams have been restricted from progress. Ten years ago or so, engine rev's were increasing every other year. That was progress. Now they are restricted to an upper limit. Without that limit, they'd be revving at over 20,000rpm these days. That would be the cutting edge - progress. Sure, they would blow more often, but that's exactly because they'd be at the edge. Now, everybody runs at 80% so they can make the engines last 5 or 6 races. Party mode takes us to 85%. The engineers must be extremely frustrated. Someone once said something like 'The perfectly engineered race car is the fastest one that breaks down right after the finish line and anything more is over engineered." Well today's F1 cars are closer to passenger car reliability than F1 cars of the past because they are so far from the edge.
Here's an analogy for you: (all hypothetical - I don't do long distance) A few friends and I are marathon runners. We train quite a bit and some of us can finish under three hours on occasion. When we push this hard, sometimes we set new personal bests, but sometimes we may pass out or collapse and not finish the race. Our wives say this is too costly and dangerous for us. They've said that if we want to continue running, we need to keep our heartbeat below 120 bpm. So now we all finish very closely to one another at about the five hour mark. We finish virtually every race - no one is collapsing and some aren't even breathing very hard. Some of us say that we have matured in our sport and that this is essentially progress. To those I say 'We are no longer racing, but merely going for a leisurely run.'

It is interesting that you raise a quote from an era where a new engine was used at every race and each team had a spare car, just in case their driver smashed their car at free practise, they had the comfort of an immediate replacement car. Which was one of the reasons why F1 costs ballooned as the engines and aerodynamic parts got more complex and pricey. Those were wasteful but exciting years but we are in a new reality where F1 is attempting to reduce unnecesary waste and costs.

The FIA and the F1 establishment have looked at the impact of racing on the planet and have taken steps to reducing the fuel consumption and the size of the engine cylinders to 1.6 litres. They have been relentless on improving safety, the halo is the most recent manifestation of that. They have taken steps towards reducing costs by getting teams to run four engines per year and got rid of the spare car.

Engineers have taken these stringent constraints and produced engines that are as fast; if not faster than their 3.0 litres predecessors that powered Schumacher to seven world championship titles. This is where progress is to be found. The maturity aspect l was referring to, relates to how they accomplished that feat with minimal engine failures in the first season of its enforcement and almost none in recent times. Exceptions to the Honda that was breaking into the sport at the time and had teething problems. Also how drivers learnt how to get through a race weekend without the availability of a spare car.

I think you would only notice engine conservation at the sharp end of the grid. Mainly because the competitors are not close enough to properly pressurize each other for the win of the race. In the midfield, that luxury is rare, except for those outside the possibility of being in the top ten or when racing at Monaco.

Running the engine until it pops does not impress really, especially when you take into consideration that F1 is where most technology in road going cars originate. From your power steering, ABS brakes, traction control, cruise control etc to energy regeneration from when you apply your brakes etc etc etc. If you buy a car that is guaranteed to run for five years and it konks out at five years on the dot, that is not really impressive engineering. You would like to get more than your moneys worth if you can get it to five years without smashing it.

So, l hear your point, but you have to realize that time has changed and you have to change with it. The old ways cannot apply anymore, otherwise motorsport in general would come under heavy criticism and scrutiny. And we may end up watching reruns of races going forward as a consequence.

[Starter]

In other words, everything is dumbed down and there is no longer the (sometimes futile) search for the "unfair advantage". Firstgear has a clear picture of what is part of the problem with motor racing today. There is no search for the next unusual advance. It's how fast can you go with these (many) constraints. The days of innovation in F1 are done. As soon as you find one it'll be outlawed. That's what killed Group 7 back in the day which used to be the breeding ground for much of what is in F1 today.

[The Black Knight]

Reading through this thread there is very much varying opinions on what does and does not make F1 a good show. Mercedes domination is nothing new in that Ferrari have also done it before.

So the question I’d like to know is, if you were to choose a year in the past to go back to where you last saw brilliant racing, the season you wished every season was like, which one would it be?

My guess is no one will be able to agree on this either and if we cannot on something like that then it’s a sure sign it’s always going to be impossible to keep everyone happy.

[Nitrodaze]

Reading through this thread there is very much varying opinions on what does and does not make F1 a good show. Mercedes domination is nothing new in that Ferrari have also done it before.

So the question I’d like to know is, if you were to choose a year in the past to go back to where you last saw brilliant racing, the season you wished every season was like, which one would it be?

My guess is no one will be able to agree on this either and if we cannot on something like that then it’s a sure sign it’s always going to be impossible to keep everyone happy.

That cracked me up :D

But very true

[Nitrodaze]

In other words, everything is dumbed down and there is no longer the (sometimes futile) search for the "unfair advantage". Firstgear has a clear picture of what is part of the problem with motor racing today. There is no search for the next unusual advance. It's how fast can you go with these (many) constraints. The days of innovation in F1 are done. As soon as you find one it'll be outlawed. That's what killed Group 7 back in the day which used to be the breeding ground for much of what is in F1 today.

I actually agree with FirstGear. Bernie started the trend many years ago of slowly standardizing that chassis of the F1 car. The rule book for designers became increasingly constraining on engine and chassis architectures and later in the aerodynamic aspects of the car. The main difficulty with arriving at a consensus for the 2021 rules, is because the rules put forward only served to take the concept of standardized F1 car even further than most people in F1 are comfortable with. Essentially, standard engines, gearbox and chassis, with little room for alterations. We saw the proposed car and thought it looked great, then we asked if teams would be allowed to come up with their own rendition of the concept car. I don't think there has been an agreeable answer to this question.

Recently, Ferrari was caught out burning engine lubricating oil as a means of boosting power. Haas was banned from having certain elements on its front wing in 2018 which essentially compromised their season. Mercedes and Redbull were other teams that had to make performance penalizing changes to their cars in recent years.

The sport is over-regulated in all areas. Out of the box [extraordinary] concepts would not find a place in today's F1 grid. Remember the six wheeler Tyrell P35 of 1977, this kind of thought challenging idea would be swiftly clamped down in today's F1.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3b/Tyrrell_P34_2008_Silverstone_Classic.jpg

But the problem is not only regulations, it also the teams. They are very quick to raise questions about innovative designs rather than emulate them. Of course, the FIA would look into it and find a reason to ban it. So, l say whinie team bosses and over-regulation is the problem.

[Big Ben]

"For the last 80 grands prix or so there's been maybe Perez once or twice on the podium. The rest has been either red, silver or blue." That's what Grosjean says. So yeah... F1 has always been like this.

[Starter]

"For the last 80 grands prix or so there's been maybe Perez once or twice on the podium. The rest has been either red, silver or blue." That's what Grosjean says. So yeah... F1 has always been like this.
Yes, and in the past there has also been technical experimentation to help keep interest alive during the relatively boring one team domination years. Things like wings, sucker cars, 6 wheelers, ultra low profile tires, turbochargers, skirts, etc. etc.

[truefan72]

Just a week on from all these folks proclaiming the death of F1 as we know it and how it's time for them to tune out etc.
We know have a solid grid with hamilton in 5th, vettel in 1oth and a few surprises strewn across the top 10. also Sainz at the tail end probably fighting back for some points throughout the race.

but i'm sure those guys won't be watching, because F1 is dead right?
lol smh

[journeyman racer]

No mandatory pitstops. 2 (Maybe 3) optional compounds of tyre, depending of the variation of performance. Then wait a year or two to see how much downforce does make a difference. Then you can trim it once you find out in real race conditions.

Otherwise you wouldn't have been much of a fan in the first place.

[henners88]

The dull racing is part of the problem but for many it’s the fact we only see highlights of the race. It just doesn’t work and finally those of in charge of the sport are starting to realise this. I rarely watch F1 now and have cut back my following the over the past few years. I used to like recording the whole race and watching it in full, but highlights and the fact the racing is rather crap make it difficult to maintain interest.

People used to say when Vettel was dominating that I would be happy if it was a British driver but they were very wrong. It’s even dull when your favourite driver is cleaning up. It’s racing at the end of the day and should be exciting.


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[Bagwan]

The dull racing is part of the problem but for many it’s the fact we only see highlights of the race. It just doesn’t work and finally those of in charge of the sport are starting to realise this. I rarely watch F1 now and have cut back my following the over the past few years. I used to like recording the whole race and watching it in full, but highlights and the fact the racing is rather crap make it difficult to maintain interest.

People used to say when Vettel was dominating that I would be happy if it was a British driver but they were very wrong. It’s even dull when your favourite driver is cleaning up. It’s racing at the end of the day and should be exciting.


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Henners , nice to see you , old man .
One word , my friend : "android" .

This place is pretty civilized these days .
Y'all should come around more often .
I miss your(completely wrong) opinions .hee hee .

[henners88]

Henners , nice to see you , old man .
One word , my friend : "android" .

This place is pretty civilized these days .
Y'all should come around more often .
I miss your(completely wrong) opinions .hee hee .
Cheers Bagwan.
I must admit I do miss being completely right every time we debate like the old days lol. I don’t watch enough F1 to know what I’m talking about these days so can’t offer an informed opinion.

Ewww can’t touch Android mate, I’m an iOS man and far too elite for operating systems like that. Just kidding.


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[Starter]

Cheers Bagwan.
I must admit I do miss being completely right every time we debate like the old days lol. I don’t watch enough F1 to know what I’m talking about these days so can’t offer an informed opinion.

Ewww can’t touch Android mate, I’m an iOS man and far too elite for operating systems like that. Just kidding.


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It's still nice to see some old faces around again. Drop in when ever you have a chance.

[Jag_Warrior]

It's still nice to see some old faces around again. Drop in when ever you have a chance.

Yep, I totally agree. I'm glad to see that you guys are still coming to a forum in this age of Fakebook, etc.

As for F1, I've been following it since before I could watch it on TV. I had to go to the school library and read about it in one of the "big city" newspapers that was there. Niki Lauda was my favorite driver and my elementary school classmates would make fun of me for liking a driver with a girl's name (yeah, I grew up in a podunk area, folks). There have been great seasons, good seasons and boring seasons. So to me, even if my favorite driver wasn't mopping up the competition, this is just another era that'll end sooner or later. I don't care for the Sky presenters (the presentation and content are great though), but I'll watch no matter what. I no longer watch the Indy 500 or the IRL (or Indy car or whatever it's called now). I couldn't tell you who races for whom in NASCAR these days. Drag racing just isn't my thing. LeMans isn't what it once was (IMO), but I try to catch the highlight shows, just because. I'll watch or go to an NBA game every now and again, but I'm not much on stick & ball sports.

But when I stop watching F1... pass a mirror under my nose, cause I'm likely dead. :eek:

[Nitrodaze]

Yep, I totally agree. I'm glad to see that you guys are still coming to a forum in this age of Fakebook, etc.

As for F1, I've been following it since before I could watch it on TV. I had to go to the school library and read about it in one of the "big city" newspapers that was there. Niki Lauda was my favorite driver and my elementary school classmates would make fun of me for liking a driver with a girl's name (yeah, I grew up in a podunk area, folks). There have been great seasons, good seasons and boring seasons. So to me, even if my favorite driver wasn't mopping up the competition, this is just another era that'll end sooner or later. I don't care for the Sky presenters (the presentation and content are great though), but I'll watch no matter what. I no longer watch the Indy 500 or the IRL (or Indy car or whatever it's called now). I couldn't tell you who races for whom in NASCAR these days. Drag racing just isn't my thing. LeMans isn't what it once was (IMO), but I try to catch the highlight shows, just because. I'll watch or go to an NBA game every now and again, but I'm not much on stick & ball sports.

But when I stop watching F1... pass a mirror under my nose, cause I'm likely dead. :eek:

Well said by a true fan of F1, and l respect you for it.

[airshifter]

Formula 1 has had it's ups and downs since it started. Unless we want spec cars it's going to happen. Sometimes it results in total domination by certain teams while the others play catch up, sometimes it results in the field being tighter, and sometimes things are outlawed the first time they are presented and protested.


Fan cars

Active suspension

Traction control

F Ducts

Double decker diffusers

Active skirts

Mass dampers

Flexing wings

S Ducts

Crashgate

Water cooled brake tanks

Burning oil for fuel

Spygate


...and these are the things that we know happened. There are surely others where nobody got noticed and got away with it. Especially before all the good video and live coverage that exposed so many of them. Who would have thought an on board camera would first notice the strange hand movements that led to the discovery of the F Duct?

If you can't appreciate it for the technology and/or racing, the scandal and rules changes in F1 can be almost like a made for TV soap opera or something.