2019 Canadian F1 GP

[Nitrodaze]

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/6f0QuLSxJoE/maxresdefault.jpg

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/formula-1/2018/06/08/TELEMMGLPICT000165784835_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqFmZwAHf bzbyjsBBHX-5Jh1FxexswdJIn0JCwl6ikJB0.jpeg?imwidth=450

The red baron, Michael Schumacher remains the most successful driver to ever race this track with 7 wins. Followed closely by Lewis Hamilton with six wins. Hamilton is the most successful of all the drivers on the current grid to win this race, followed by Sebastian Vettels with a distant two wins. However, Vettel was the last winner of this race.

The long Casino straight through the wall of champions, to the Start straight; particularly, sections 2 and 3, makes this track a horse power circuit which incidentally would suit the Ferrari and its fearsome engine. Also, there are not many punishing slow corners at Montreal, but enough fast corners to help the Ferrari maintain its speed advantage through a full lap. It is looking like, the winning streak of the Mercedes may come to an end at this race.

But this poses a new interesting conundrum, which of the two Ferrari drivers is likely to take his first win at this track? The aspects of the Ferrari car that has bothered Vettel are likely to be less of a problem on a track like this one. But, when it comes to all out pace, Leclerc is the one Mercedes would be most worried about. Most would probably say providence owes Leclerc a win after the one that got away from him in Bahrain.

Some people would also be thinking; how is Ferrari going to drop the ball this time round? Some may ask if Ferrari would give Leclerc the support he needs to fight for the win. The Leclerc side of the Ferrari pitwall has been quite shite most of this season. But we hope that ferrari will put on a show on sunday, with both cars fighting at the front.

I am hoping for a Ferrari win, just to shake things up abit.

https://cdn-1.motorsport.com/images/mgl/0ZrdZBV0/s8/f1-canadian-gp-2008-grid-girl-for-lewis-hamilton-mclaren.jpg

And a lovely Canadian Grid girl to usher a new race weekend.

[The Black Knight]

Big weekemd for Bottas v2.0 here. Currently 17 points behind Hamilton in the standings, if he can win then he has a great chance against Hamilton over the rest of the season. If he cannot win and Hamilton extends his championship lead to more than a race win then, barring reliability issues, it’s hard to see Bottas come back at Hamilton, especially since Hamilton hasn’t reached his peak performance level yet this year. Ever the one to improve over the course of the year, Hamilton has yet to peak, whereas Bottas may have peaked already.

One to watch with big interest. Giovinazzi and Kubica both need big race weekends as well. Both have been horrendous this year and I cannot see either with a place on the grid in 2020 as things stand.

As for Stroll, well he has been shockingly bad and the only reason he has a race seat has been Daddy and he doesn’t deserve an F1 seat either.

[Nitrodaze]

Big weekemd for Bottas v2.0 here. Currently 17 points behind Hamilton in the standings, if he can win then he has a great chance against Hamilton over the rest of the season. If he cannot win and Hamilton extends his championship lead to more than a race win then, barring reliability issues, it’s hard to see Bottas come back at Hamilton, especially since Hamilton hasn’t reached his peak performance level yet this year. Ever the one to improve over the course of the year, Hamilton has yet to peak, whereas Bottas may have peaked already.

One to watch with big interest. Giovinazzi and Kubica both need big race weekends as well. Both have been horrendous this year and I cannot see either with a place on the grid in 2020 as things stand.

As for Stroll, well he has been shockingly bad and the only reason he has a race seat has been Daddy and he doesn’t deserve an F1 seat either.

You are obviously certain that Ferrari would drop the ball again. If they do, Bottas would need to do something special to beat Hamilton on his favourite track.

[The Black Knight]

You are obviously certain that Ferrari would drop the ball again. If they do, Bottas would need to do something special to beat Hamilton on his favourite track.

Ferrari are simply irrelevant now in the title race. It’s too late for them to catch Mercedes this year even if they have an advantage at this one track. It’s all about whether Bottas or Hamilton can win the title now.

[Nitrodaze]

Ferrari are simply irrelevant now in the title race. It’s too late for them to catch Mercedes this year even if they have an advantage at this one track. It’s all about whether Bottas or Hamilton can win the title now.

We are only a quarter of the way through the 2019 season. It is too early to write off Ferrari. That said, they have a mountain to climb, since they have to win the next six races to have a real chance to be in the fight with Mercedes. To make thing more difficult, these six wins would need to be one two wins. Somehow it is hard to see Ferrari achieving such clinical operation as is typical of Mercedes. But anything is possible.
I would say, the summer break would be a good place to judge Ferrari.

[The Black Knight]

We are only a quater of the way through the 2019 season. It is too early to write off Ferrari. That said that have a mountain to climb, since they have to win the next six races to have a chance to be in the fight with Mercedes. To make thing more difficult, these six wins would need to be one two wins. Somehow it is hard to see Ferrari achieve such clinical operation as would Mercedes. But anything is possible.
I would say, the summer break would be a good place to write of Ferrari, if they are still fumbling.

No team has ever been so dominant in the opening six races of a season as Mercedes have been. Thinking Ferrari still have any hope of either championship is pure pie in the sky stuff. It’s over already. The car hasn’t enough downforce and their operations is all over the place, they just restructured again. Ferrari are too Italian again and they aren’t going to be winning any championship this year or next.

[Duncan]

The results certainly paint a very ugly picture for Ferrari (and for Red Bull), but it has to be said that Mercedes caught some breaks in getting to the point they are in.

Leclerc was robbed of a win in Bahrain, for a start. On the other hand, Ferrari really haven't helped themselves; I can't help thinking that they made a mistake getting rid of Maurizio Arrivabene...

[Bagwan]

No team has ever been so dominant in the opening six races of a season as Mercedes have been. Thinking Ferrari still have any hope of either championship is pure pie in the sky stuff. It’s over already. The car hasn’t enough downforce and their operations is all over the place, they just restructured again. Ferrari are too Italian again and they aren’t going to be winning any championship this year or next.

Why watch at all , then , if "It's over already" ?

[Bagwan]

I am looking forward to a good race , where Max thinks he has a chance , the Reds and Silvers look closer , and the rest are tussling hard for the scraps .

[Tazio]

Quali dawgz!
Greetings ladz :wave:

[Tazio]

Sorrrrrrrry racing point, and kimi! ;)

[Tazio]

Maggi crashed, which is bad luck for Max!
......Sorrrrry :dork:

[Nitrodaze]

Wow, what a lap by Vettel. 1:10:240 sec, the lap record for the Canadian Gille Villeneurve track and the fastest ever lap on this track. Half a second quicker than the 2018 fastest lap.

[Tazio]

Alright McCiardo p4!

[Duncan]

Some great stuff today... very good lap by Vettel, obviously, but great stuff from Ricciardo as well.

Bottas having a bit of an off day, but I think he'll take it in place of Magnussen's. Or Verstappen's. Or Grosjean's.

[The Black Knight]

Vettel’s pole was won in turn 6. He smashed it there, got on the throttle early and the perfect line down to turns 8&9. Well done to him.

Credit to Ricciardo, he’s well out done his teammate today and starting to look much better in the Renault.

Scrappy from Bottas 2.0. Because the TV director, as usual, has the intelligence of a turtle and stuck with Bottas lap even though he had made a million mistakes, I haven’t got to see Hamilton’s lap yet. Did he make a mistake at the hairpin?

[Duncan]

Vettel’s pole was won in turn 6. He smashed it there, got on the throttle early and the perfect line down to turns 8&9. Well done to him.

Credit to Ricciardo, he’s well out done his teammate today and starting to look much better in the Renault.

Scrappy from Bottas 2.0. Because the TV director, as usual, has the intelligence of a turtle and stuck with Bottas lap even though he had made a million mistakes, I haven’t got to see Hamilton’s lap yet. Did he make a mistake at the hairpin?

Just watched the onboard reply of Hamilton's last flyer. I didn't see anything that looked like a mistake; he was purple in sectors 1 & 2, but the Ferrari is just consistently 2 or 3 tenths faster in sector 3.

[The Black Knight]

Just watched the onboard reply of Hamilton's last flyer. I didn't see anything that looked like a mistake; he was purple in sectors 1 & 2, but the Ferrari is just consistently 2 or 3 tenths faster in sector 3.
Cheers. Toto said he had a mistake there but maybe he was talking about Bottas v2.0 lap and I misunderstood.

[Tazio]

This is a good race for "The Boss" to increase his lead in the drivers championship. Bottas starting on the third row has got to be a little careful. No doubt Bot' can make up some places, however with a little luck Lew will have a full race buffer going into (viva la) France; a track that should favor the Merc's :idea:

[Nitrodaze]

I am kind of happy for Vettel finding form and taking it to Hamilton. When things were tough for him and Ferrari, most people criticized him and berated him in favour of his younger teammate. They forget, he is a four times world champion who is still as potent as ever, given a car to his liking.

I hope Ferrari can find a way to sustain this progress at other tracks going forward, but l fear this turn of form may be particular to the characteristics of the Gille Villeneuve track or this kind of track where they can unleash the power of their engine.

[journeyman racer]

"The Boss" is P4.

Bottas? Well, he's not out of it. He's got to turn the adversity into his advantage (Like we've seen it happen to Hamilton, and what Bottas did at Azerbaijan a couple of years ago?).

Regarding the exchange of posts about Ferrari's championship hopes? I reckon they're gone, and are just in it for nuisance value.

[laucasbari324]

Canadian Grand Prix
GO LIVE HD<<>> https://hqstreamingtv.net/Canadian-Grand-Prix/

[truefan72]

Useless Ferrari strategy for LeClerc

[Tazio]

Sorry Fettel!
Alright McBoss! :dork:

[truefan72]

Hmm that's a tough penalty on Vettel. Even as a Hamilton fan, that seems like a ludicrous decision. Let them race.

[Tazio]

:stareup: Sorry he cut the boss off!

[N4D13]

What a rubbish call from the stewards.

That Vettel call was pretty questionable on its own - he didn't have anywhere to go anyway and was still sliding as he rejoining the track, so that was a pretty WTF decision.

What bothers me the most, however, is that it's been given the exact same penalty as an unsafe release from the pits which forced another driver to hit a barrier and pit again for repairs - and it was in the pits, which is the place where all the mechanics are, so an accident there is extremely dangerous.

Remember the days when we called the FIA Ferrari International Assistance? It looks as though someone is trying to overcompensate now.

[The Black Knight]

Hmm that's a tough penalty on Vettel. Even as a Hamilton fan, that seems like a ludicrous decision. Let them race.

No, it’s not. It’s a slam dunk penalty. It was an unsafe reentry any day of the week. He has gotten away with no penalties plenty of times he should have got one anyway so I’ve no issue with him finally getting penalised.

He had lost the position and he cut across Hamilton to chop him as he knew that’s where he would go.

[truefan72]

:stareup: Sorry he cut the boss off!that is the only thing i can think of. That regardless of the incident it might be considered dangerous driving. But tbh it was a bit of a pathetic call. Let them race. We have been robbed of a grandstand finish

[truefan72]

The reql question is if Ferrati will allow leclerc to kerp pushing and take p2. My money is on them telling him to slow down so vettel can keep his p2. I hope not but suspect that is going to be what happens

[Big Ben]

No, it’s not. It’s a slam dunk penalty. It was an unsafe reentry any day of the week. He has gotten away with no penalties plenty of times he should have got one anyway so I’ve no issue with him finally getting penalised.

He had lost the position and he cut across Hamilton to chop him as he knew that’s where he would go.

You are embarrassing yourself

[N. Jones]

That's championship number 6 for Lewis and he can thank the stewards for it. What a turd of a penalty.

[Tazio]

Vettel didn't deserve the win today. He fell apart with lewis breathing down his neck again.....!

[truefan72]

Ok Vettel and the sky team fundamentally misunderstand the penalty. ( which i think was harsh) going on to the grass is the original sin the fact that he couldn't control the car post clumsy maneuver and its subsequent cause is all part of the original mistake. Arguing that its tought to control the car coming off the grass completely disregards the fact that he went off the track in the first place and then (knowing full well that hamilton was on his tail) just rejoining on the racing line in a dangerous manner. I disagree with penalty but also with the lack of understanding.

[truefan72]

Vettels behavior is rather childish. Smh

[truefan72]

Vettel didn't deserve the win today. He fell apart with lewis breathing down his neck again.....!
Yup.
Lol chandhok again reiterates that vettel doesn't deserve the penalty because he wasn't in 100% control of his car. Lol
He wasnt because he made a mistake in the first place. Ridiculous. All the petulance and commentary is annoying.

[Tazio]

What if Vettel didn't run out of talent! ;)

[The Black Knight]

Vettel once again showing his petulant childish behaviour by switching number one and two signs. A race ban now would do him no harm.

At the end of the day, another Vettel mistake cost Ferrari another victory.

[Big Ben]

Yup.
Lol chandhok again reiterates that vettel doesn't deserve the penalty because he wasn't in 100% control of his car. Lol
He wasnt because he made a mistake in the first place. Ridiculous. All the petulance and commentary is annoying.

That glimpse of reason didn't last long, did it?

[truefan72]

Classy words at the end from Vettel.
The sky team's commentary seems to be influenced by a need for additional controversy or wanting drama. Here is how to avoid losing control of your car in that manner. Dont make a mistake and drive unto the grass
Lol

[The Black Knight]

Just watched the replay again And doubly sure the penalty was deserved. He could have continued left of the kerb to rejoin the track, instead he went over the kerb to slide himself over the track. He could have rejoined the track in a safe manner and that is key here because he didn’t.

[truefan72]

That glimpse of reason didn't last long, did it?
My stance hasn't changed. Penalty was harsh but not underatanding why it was even investigated in the first place is equally as foolish. One can be nuanced in an argument right?

[Nitrodaze]

It is a controversial decision but l think the decision seemed unfair. Vettel made a mistake and cutting the track gave him an advantage. But they should have let them race l think. The stewards do that on other occasions but in this instance where they should have been consistent. Verstapenn enjoyed it in the last race but on this occasion where there was a proper fight happening, they spoilt it with a penalty.

I think Hamilton would have passed him at some point maybe. But the race ended with the fans at the race feeling upset with the decision. But to be fair, the rules was broken and the penalty did fit the crime.

[truefan72]

Toto wolf giving a reasoned explanation. Time turn off sky. Its all too much from brundle and co.

[truefan72]

It is a controversial decision but l think the decision seemed unfair. Vettel made a mistake and cutting the track gave him an advantage. But they should have let them race l think. The stewards do that on other occasions but in this instance where they should have been consistent. Verstapenn enjoyed it in the last race but on this occasion where there was a proper fight happening, they spoilt it with a penalty.

I think Hamilton would have passed him at some point maybe. But the race ended with the fans at the race feeling upset with the decision.
Agreed. It was a bit controversial. I maintain that arguing about car control of the car as he is bouncing back on the track from grass isn't understanging that his mistake is the intial problem. Brundel arguing lewis has a brake too is pathetic. Seb has a brake too and a steering wheel and a brain. Ugh

[Nitrodaze]

Ricciado did well to finish 6th and best of the rest. A strong Renault showing this weekend, they have closed up to Mclaren who is 3rd in the constructors leader board by 2 points. The fight for 4th in the constructors championship is hotting up now. This is one to watch. Max recovered well to fifth from the back of the grid, what a drive. Is Bottas's championship fight also over with 29 points adrift?

It is fair to say now that Ferrari are out of it unless Mercedes get complacent and screw up some races in the future. This is one race that has left a bad taste in my mouth at the end of it.

[Duncan]

This is going to run and run...

While not wanting to see a race getting decided that way, I don't think the stewards could really just ignore that. Surprised at the Sky team constantly talking about how there was nothing Seb could do, because he didn't have control of the car; really not seeing how that's relevant. He clearly went all-4-off and then rejoined in an unsafe manner. Whether he was a passenger at that point seems irrelevant, since the chain of events was triggered by Seb losing control of the car at the entrance to the corner in the first place.

Had he managed to regain control of the car after rejoining the track, Lewis would have taken the place, and it shouldn't be to Seb's advantage to have still been out of control. As it was, Lewis needed to deploy the reflexes of a cat to avoid getting both front wheels taken off.

Also, I get that he was pissed afterwards, but that little stunt with switching the numbers over was beneath him. He might be seeing an extra penalty applied for that.

[Nitrodaze]

Agreed. It was a bit controversial. I maintain that arguing about car control of the car as he is bouncing back on the track from grass isn't understanging that his mistake is the intial problem. Brundel arguing lewis has a brake too is pathetic. Seb has a brake too and a steering wheel and a brain. Ugh

I hear you, but the point is not to punish Vettel for making a mistake but to apply discretion to the situation of how he re-entered the track.

That said, the stewards did a by the book decision.

[Nitrodaze]

Lewis Hamilton matches the 7 race wins of Michael Schumacher at this track.

[Zico]

My intial thoughts were... Vet rejoining the track after his mistake was not unsafe at that precise moment.
He could have chosen not to block Hamilton after rejoining the track but clearly chose to block him.

If I was the race steward I doubt I'd have penalised him but I can also see both sides of the argument.
I guess he deserves a penalty IF the two components can be regarded as only one incident... but if you seperate them he doesn't. I see them as separate.

[zako85]

There should have been no penalty for Vettel because of these two issues:

1. First, it's pretty much impossible to stop a car that's bouncing on grass. The driver is basically a passenger over the grassy stretch.

2. Once on track, Vettel is clearly seen briefly turning the steering wheel right (steering front wheels towards the wall). However, if you study the incident from various angles, it seems like it was done to correct a subtle oversteer. The correction was small enough for the car to regain traction. There is no way Vettel could either brake or take a sharper left turn to allow Hamilton a full racing line because that would certainly make Vettel's car lose traction, specially with dirty tires after taking a trip off the track. In the worst case, both cars would end in the wall.

What really happened was a racing incident involving now classic Vettel mistakes under pressure, but there should have been no penalty.

[truefan72]

This is going to run and run...

While not wanting to see a race getting decided that way, I don't think the stewards could really just ignore that. Surprised at the Sky team constantly talking about how there was nothing Seb could do, because he didn't have control of the car; really not seeing how that's relevant. He clearly went all-4-off and then rejoined in an unsafe manner. Whether he was a passenger at that point seems irrelevant, since the chain of events was triggered by Seb losing control of the car at the entrance to the corner in the first place.

Had he managed to regain control of the car after rejoining the track, Lewis would have taken the place, and it shouldn't be to Seb's advantage to have still been out of control. As it was, Lewis needed to deploy the reflexes of a cat to avoid getting both front wheels taken off.

Also, I get that he was pissed afterwards, but that little stunt with switching the numbers over was beneath him. He might be seeing an extra penalty applied for that.
Exactly!
You have said it more succinctly and concise than I managed to do in several posts
that was my point exactly.

[Bagwan]

Seb did make a mistake , and it's good on Lewis that he forced him into it , but it's hardly irrelevant that he didn't have control as he crossed the grass .
He was going somewhere around 100 mph across that grass , with no chance to change direction nor slow down once he was there , and went up over the curbing onto the track in full opposite lock , regaining control as he went across the track surface .
Lewis was never more than half way alongside him as they went through the corner , and by the time he was anywhere close , the gap was already closing .
That's the only reason he had enough time to dab the brakes , or at least lift , to get out from between Seb and the wall .

If the track was a car wider there , and Seb had regained control when he did , but still pushed Lewis wide into a wall , then Seb would deserve being penalized .


The other issue I have with the penalty , itself , rather than with the reasoning for it , is that it robbed us of a potentially wild ending , with Lewis actually having a stab at a pass instead of just staying under 5 seconds behind .

[Nitrodaze]

Seb did make a mistake , and it's good on Lewis that he forced him into it , but it's hardly irrelevant that he didn't have control as he crossed the grass .
He was going somewhere around 100 mph across that grass , with no chance to change direction nor slow down once he was there , and went up over the curbing onto the track in full opposite lock , regaining control as he went across the track surface .
Lewis was never more than half way alongside him as they went through the corner , and by the time he was anywhere close , the gap was already closing .
That's the only reason he had enough time to dab the brakes , or at least lift , to get out from between Seb and the wall .

If the track was a car wider there , and Seb had regained control when he did , but still pushed Lewis wide into a wall , then Seb would deserve being penalized .


The other issue I have with the penalty , itself , rather than with the reasoning for it , is that it robbed us of a potentially wild ending , with Lewis actually having a stab at a pass instead of just staying under 5 seconds behind .

Quite true actually, what you describe there is purely racing. Give no quarter and expect none in return. I have watched the race properly again and l can see why the penalty appears harsh. Hamilton in Vettel's position or any other driver on the grid would have done exactly the same thing that Vettel had to do.

The facts are simple,
firstly, Vettel made a mistake and cut across the grassy chicane.
Secondly, he did not have complete control of the car coming off the grass.
Thirdly, he did not maintain a car's width to Hamilton once he got control of the car.

I think he was punished for point three. He had control of the car at the point when he appeared to squeeze Hamilton to the wall, drastically reducing the required car's width he was supposed to give, thus forcing Hamilton onto the breaks in order to avoid a collision. This is the particular moment he was punished for. The stewards considered this aspect, dangerous driving and were forced to apply the rules.

To be fair, the stewards did their job correctly in the face of alot of public hope for a Ferrari revival which seemed to be in action.

[zako85]

Oh well, at least we know that the effects of this penalty, whatever they were, have very slim chances of affecting the championship at the end of season.

[journeyman racer]

No, it’s not. It’s a slam dunk penalty. .

Just watched the replay again And doubly sure the penalty was deserved. .

I'm glad you agree with me that the penalty was deserved.

As an impartial F1 fan. You're obviously annoyed that Hamilton did the same thing to Ricciardo in Monaco 2016 (at the chicane) and received no penalty for it.

[journeyman racer]

And another thing. Why did Ricciardo leave RB?

Watch how they fried Gasly today!

Wowee!

If a team did that to Hamilton, truefan would go postal!

[steveaki13]

Anyone thinking that motorsport should have penalties like that I cannot even believe that they want to watch it.

I remember fondly a time when racing drivers took their chances and raced hard.

This is why the sport I onced loved is now dying in my opinion. I despair

[zako85]

And another thing. Why did Ricciardo leave RB?

Nobody was booting Riccardo out of RB. He just pulled an Alonso (2015) or Villeneuve (1999) by quitting a reasonably adequate team in favor of a pie in the sky, and will pay for it. Why did he do it? I think like most F1 drivers with an inflated ego he decided that the Red Bull team is too crowded for employing two racing geniuses at the same time. This happened so many times.

[The Black Knight]

Autosport have a good explanation of the stewards decision now:

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/143996/vettel-steering-inputs-key-to-fia-penalty-decision

Still agree with the decision. He deserved a penalty. I'm replaying at the incident now and if you go in slow motion you can clearly see what the Autosport article refers. Correct decision by the Stewards.

[The Black Knight]

I'm glad you agree with me that the penalty was deserved.

As an impartial F1 fan. You're obviously annoyed that Hamilton did the same thing to Ricciardo in Monaco 2016 (at the chicane) and received no penalty for it.

No, he didn't. Hamilton didn't rejoin the track in an unsafe manner it's quite a different situation. I do agree, however, that it was borderline penalty territory from Hamilton on that occasion the way he squeezed Ricciardo on the exit. The stewards never explained that decision not to penalise so we'll have to assume there's a rationale behind their decision not to penalise there.

[The Black Knight]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gykAh22nbM

Nico Rosberg tells it as it is. This appears to be a case of he who screams the loudest gets the headlines. As I said already, Vettel could have avoided the Lewis squeeze and that's why he got the penalty and the penalty was deserved.

[Bagwan]

As I understand it , he was given a penalty for re-entering the track unsafely , but that's not what the stewards seem to be saying .
They seem to be showing him as having regained control , looking in his mirrors , and realizing the Hamilton was coming on his right , steering to the right , to squeeze Ham between the wall and himself .

If this is the justification for the penalty , should it not be a penalty for forcing another driver off track ?

That aside , the penalty seems to me to be as close a call as the wall was when Lewis made the decision to brake .
I'd say the decision would be a cut and dried situation , had the track been one car wider , with Seb gaining control when he did .


One other thought that I had while I watched the podium ceremony was to wonder if Lewis would come under any scrutiny for pulling Seb onto the top step with him , as this was what Michael did with Rubens once , only to receive surprisingly severe sanctioning fines for breach of protocol .

[The Black Knight]

As I understand it , he was given a penalty for re-entering the track unsafely , but that's not what the stewards seem to be saying .
They seem to be showing him as having regained control , looking in his mirrors , and realizing the Hamilton was coming on his right , steering to the right , to squeeze Ham between the wall and himself .

If this is the justification for the penalty , should it not be a penalty for forcing another driver off track ?

That aside , the penalty seems to me to be as close a call as the wall was when Lewis made the decision to brake .
I'd say the decision would be a cut and dried situation , had the track been one car wider , with Seb gaining control when he did .


One other thought that I had while I watched the podium ceremony was to wonder if Lewis would come under any scrutiny for pulling Seb onto the top step with him , as this was what Michael did with Rubens once , only to receive surprisingly severe sanctioning fines for breach of protocol .

I get your point but it was all part of the one move upon reentry to the track. He didn't force Lewis off the track because the only place off track in that area of the circuit is the green part Sebastien drove through.

[Bagwan]

I get your point but it was all part of the one move upon reentry to the track. He didn't force Lewis off the track because the only place off track in that area of the circuit is the green part Sebastien drove through.

I beg to disagree here .
The track limit is the white line , is it not ?

It's hard to see whether his wheels are completely outside the white line , in the onboard shots , but it looked to me that Lewis was about as far off track as one can get there , before backing out of it .

But , the stewards used the fact that he had regained control already , and knew Lewis was there , when he steered towards the wall .
If it was "all one move" as you suggest , does it not somewhat justify Seb's complaint that he was still regaining control ?

[The Black Knight]

I beg to disagree here .
The track limit is the white line , is it not ?

It's hard to see whether his wheels are completely outside the white line , in the onboard shots , but it looked to me that Lewis was about as far off track as one can get there , before backing out of it .

But , the stewards used the fact that he had regained control already , and knew Lewis was there , when he steered towards the wall .
If it was "all one move" as you suggest , does it not somewhat justify Seb's complaint that he was still regaining control ?

No, can't agree with this, although there is a fuzzy white line open to interpretation there. You can be in control of your car and still recovering from your incident. Fending off and blocking Hamilton was all part of that recovery.

[Bagwan]

No, can't agree with this, although there is a fuzzy white line open to interpretation there. You can be in control of your car and still recovering from your incident. Fending off and blocking Hamilton was all part of that recovery.
Good debate TBK .
"still recovering from your incident" is what's important here .
He insists he was .

But the stewards seem to think he had full control , and the knowledge that Ham was there , hoping to come through .
Hamilton was set up perfectly , had there been space .
But he backed out of it , very wisely , with Seb careening across the track , as the gap was closing .

Simple physics tells us that it was only then that Seb moved across that white line , as they didn't touch .


Now , if I could , I'd like to touch on the drivers' reactions .
First , we all saw how pissed Seb was . That would be a normal thing , even if he was completely at fault , as drivers in general , and Seb in particular are often petulant turds in these situations .

However , Hamilton wasn't ranting at all about almost being put in the wall , and that's not normal at all .
His moving Seb onto the top step more than suggests he doesn't agree with the German being sanctioned .
His reaction plays to the thought that Seb was still recovering , and he would have had the best seat in the house to see the lurid slide Seb had as he came off the curbing , and thus , dabbed the brakes .


I think we pretty close in our opinions here , as I'd totally agree with you , had the incident occurred on a very slightly wider piece of track .

Note also , that you are agreeing with the stewards here . Doesn't that make you just a little bit nervous ? hee hee .

[Zico]

Ok... regardless of whether it was deserved or not. That one could go on forever.

What about the penalty? For me it was the anti-racing, it robbed us of an exciting finale to the race. Cant help but feel that ordering Vettel to let Hamilton through would have been a far far superior decision.
Instead of Lewis just following him home within the 5 sec window... it would have given Seb the chance to come back at Lewis and it wouldnt have totally ruined the race.

I sincerely hope that Liberty recognise this and re-evaluate their current penalties to instead be pro racing.

[Nitrodaze]

Anyone thinking that motorsport should have penalties like that I cannot even believe that they want to watch it.

I remember fondly a time when racing drivers took their chances and raced hard.

This is why the sport I once loved is now dying in my opinion. I despair

I can't argue with your views here. That really was the sentiment this weekend. The penalty raised the question, "why is Vettel not allow to fight for his position advantage, once he was back on track?", "Why should he hand the advantage to Hamilton or make it easier for Hamilton to overtake him?".

The scene that was offensive was clearly hard racing and ought not be punishable. No real F1 fan would expect anything less. The thing was that Vettel squeezed just the right amount and well within safe parameters. Certainly enough for the situation to be within Hamilton's capability to deal with it and make a correction in time to avoid a collision. These are two of the most successful racing drivers of the current era? Surely theyy can be given a discretionary benefit of the doubt that such a move is well within the skills and capability of either driver to handle. This was not a Rosberg type squeeze of Barcelona 2016 that end with a crash.

[Bagwan]

Ok... regardless of whether it was deserved or not. That one could go on forever.

What about the penalty? For me it was the anti-racing, it robbed us of an exciting finale to the race. Cant help but feel that ordering Vettel to let Hamilton through would have been a far far superior decision.
Instead of Lewis just following him home within the 5 sec window... it would have given Seb the chance to come back at Lewis and it wouldnt have totally ruined the race.

I sincerely hope that Liberty recognise this and re-evaluate their current penalties to instead be pro racing.

If he deserved penalty , I like your idea of switching the order .

[Duncan]

What about the penalty? For me it was the anti-racing, it robbed us of an exciting finale to the race. Cant help but feel that ordering Vettel to let Hamilton through would have been a far far superior decision.
Instead of Lewis just following him home within the 5 sec window... it would have given Seb the chance to come back at Lewis and it wouldnt have totally ruined the race.

I think that's what we need: the stewards need to have a sanction that will be immediately effected on-track (like giving up a position). The problem with time penalties is that if they're late in the race, the final order isn't going to be the order in which everybody passes the line, which I think is the root of all of the upset here.

To work, this would need to be something that the stewards decide on very quickly (like within one lap of the incident or something) and need to be effected by the driver within some short period, like a lap or two, or be converted automatically into a greater time penalty. You'd also need a requirement that DRS be disabled for the penalized driver for a lap or so, otherwise they'd just game the system by timing the switch to right before the detection zone.

Fair play to Lewis here, though; he could have just backed off and held the gap to less than 5 seconds, but he instead pushed aggressively to try to reel Vettel in and tried to win it on track.

[The Black Knight]

Good debate TBK .
"still recovering from your incident" is what's important here .
He insists he was .

But the stewards seem to think he had full control , and the knowledge that Ham was there , hoping to come through .
Hamilton was set up perfectly , had there been space .
But he backed out of it , very wisely , with Seb careening across the track , as the gap was closing .

Simple physics tells us that it was only then that Seb moved across that white line , as they didn't touch .


Now , if I could , I'd like to touch on the drivers' reactions .
First , we all saw how pissed Seb was . That would be a normal thing , even if he was completely at fault , as drivers in general , and Seb in particular are often petulant turds in these situations .

However , Hamilton wasn't ranting at all about almost being put in the wall , and that's not normal at all .
His moving Seb onto the top step more than suggests he doesn't agree with the German being sanctioned .
His reaction plays to the thought that Seb was still recovering , and he would have had the best seat in the house to see the lurid slide Seb had as he came off the curbing , and thus , dabbed the brakes .


I think we pretty close in our opinions here , as I'd totally agree with you , had the incident occurred on a very slightly wider piece of track .

Note also , that you are agreeing with the stewards here . Doesn't that make you just a little bit nervous ? hee hee .

Agree we are close on opinion but the crux of the issue really is that Vettel straightened the wheel while looking in his mirrors at an angle that cut off Hamilton. That’s ultimately why he got a penalty and I can’t disagree with it. Maybe Hamilton would have done the same and maybe he also would have also received a penalty, it doesn’t matter really, what matters is whether a rule was broken. And Hamilton certain wasn’t too apologetic speaking to the press, his opinion was that he would have done the same but also that he had an obstacle on track. Ultimately Seb bottled under pressure from Hamilton and we should not lose sight of that. I remember Valentino Rossi getting a 10 second timed penalty MotoGP and he got his head down and built the gap of 10 seconds to second place and won the race anyway. That's what Vettel should have done.

Yes, for once I agree with the stewards although there have been many occasions I haven’t😆 I think there needs to be greater transparency from the Stewards on why they take certain decisions. They have more angles than we do and more information. I think their explanation for the penalty is pretty airtight and Vettel can’t complain too much about it.

I like the idea floated here of a position swap but it would still take time for the Stewards to arrive at that conclusion.

[The Black Knight]

I think that's what we need: the stewards need to have a sanction that will be immediately effected on-track (like giving up a position). The problem with time penalties is that if they're late in the race, the final order isn't going to be the order in which everybody passes the line, which I think is the root of all of the upset here.

To work, this would need to be something that the stewards decide on very quickly (like within one lap of the incident or something) and need to be effected by the driver within some short period, like a lap or two, or be converted automatically into a greater time penalty. You'd also need a requirement that DRS be disabled for the penalized driver for a lap or so, otherwise they'd just game the system by timing the switch to right before the detection zone.

Fair play to Lewis here, though; he could have just backed off and held the gap to less than 5 seconds, but he instead pushed aggressively to try to reel Vettel in and tried to win it on track.
Or if he didn’t agree with the penalty he could have let Seb build the gap to 5 secs and let him win 🤣 of course he couldn’t actually do that as so many people rely on him in Mercedes to get the win but it’s a different spin :)

[Big Ben]

Great decision by the stewards. They were like some football referees that think they don't get enough spotlight and make sure they get all the attention. I suppose that from now on when a driver makes a mistake and disturbs the other delicate genius behind him it's all done and dusted. As some have pointed out, the penalty is also quite perverse. In a situation like this one, the penalized driver can't even make up for his mistake. When they handed out this retarded penalty, they decided who wins 80% or something into the race.

One reason I like F1 so little nowadays is because of these two. I don't really care if any of them wins. Vettel just showed everybody what a petulant spoilt brat he is. He really knows how to take it with dignity. And Hamilton, oh Hamilton, what a gentleman, what a sportsman, no? He took the gift with so much dignity and even offered some empty gestures... but when it all happened he bitched and moaned instantly over the radio. But our beloved tattooed gentleman with 10 earrings and douchebag hairdo didn't want to win like this. There's a huge chasm between who this guy pretends to be and who he really is.

[journeyman racer]

Since when did TBK care what Rosberg thought?


I can't argue with your views here. That really was the sentiment this weekend. The penalty raised the question, "why is Vettel not allow to fight for his position advantage, once he was back on track?", "Why should he hand the advantage to Hamilton or make it easier for Hamilton to overtake him?".

The scene that was offensive was clearly hard racing and ought not be punishable. No real F1 fan would expect anything less. The thing was that Vettel squeezed just the right amount and well within safe parameters. Certainly enough for the situation to be within Hamilton's capability to deal with it and make a correction in time to avoid a collision. These are two of the most successful racing drivers of the current era? Surely theyy can be given a discretionary benefit of the doubt that such a move is well within the skills and capability of either driver to handle. This was not a Rosberg type squeeze of Barcelona 2016 that end with a crash.

I'm going to have a go at this. As I agree with such a penalty, but empathise with Vettel because penalty enforcement seems to be a lottery.

Like Hamilton at Monaco in 16, and Schumacher in Adelaide. Vettel created what otherwise would've been yellow flag moment. If they do that, then they should stay out of the way til they get up to normal speed.

They didn't, and in the process had disrupted the momentum of other drivers. They should've got done over.

The lead car typically has right of way, but they have to be going at a "normal speed".

[Nitrodaze]

I think that's what we need: the stewards need to have a sanction that will be immediately effected on-track (like giving up a position). The problem with time penalties is that if they're late in the race, the final order isn't going to be the order in which everybody passes the line, which I think is the root of all of the upset here.

To work, this would need to be something that the stewards decide on very quickly (like within one lap of the incident or something) and need to be effected by the driver within some short period, like a lap or two, or be converted automatically into a greater time penalty. You'd also need a requirement that DRS be disabled for the penalized driver for a lap or so, otherwise they'd just game the system by timing the switch to right before the detection zone.

Fair play to Lewis here, though; he could have just backed off and held the gap to less than 5 seconds, but he instead pushed aggressively to try to reel Vettel in and tried to win it on track.

I agree that the stewards need to be timely with their decisions. They obviously need to improve how they prioritize their deliberation of incidents that occur in a race. i doubt they would be able to come up with a fair decision within a lap, as it take time to gather the video evidence. I think within two laps and no more than 3 laps, might be feasible.

I wonder if giving up a position is better than getting a five seconds penalty. At least with a 5 sec penalty, he has a chance to try to put a 5 sec gap between himself and Hamilton. That said, Vettel with a one place drop penalty, may have had a great opportunity to pass Hamilton to regain the lead. However, this would be unlikely on narrower tracks with lots of slow corners like Monaco for instance.

I personally would go with Jenson Button on this one. It should be discretionary based on circumstances and experience of the drivers involved. Hard racing like this where the pursuer was forced to slow down in a manner that does not put the safety of both drivers at risk should be given the benefit of the doubt. Otherwise, the penalty should be applied where both drivers have been placed at serious risk of the occurrence of an avoidable accident. In this instance, l would prefer a 5 sec penalty to a place drop, as the options are better and subject to the ability of the driver and/or car. It is also more exciting, as the driver, not only has to worry about the car right behind him, he must think of other cars behind him on track who are within that 5 sec window.

[Bagwan]

I think the quality of points on both sides of this debate shows the difficulty the stewards faced , and highlights the 5 second penalty as , perhaps the best solution , in a way .

As I understand it , there is currently no way to contest this result , as it stands in the rules .
But , if there were , and Seb was to be found "not guilty"of the charge , the time penalty could be easily lifted .
With any change of position mandated during the race , this would not be possible .

Given that we are still debating here , and all seemingly coming up with well-reasoned points of view , some thought should be given to having the teams be able to appeal the result .

[Nitrodaze]

I think the quality of points on both sides of this debate shows the difficulty the stewards faced , and highlights the 5 second penalty as , perhaps the best solution , in a way .

As I understand it , there is currently no way to contest this result , as it stands in the rules .
But , if there were , and Seb was to be found "not guilty"of the charge , the time penalty could be easily lifted .
With any change of position mandated during the race , this would not be possible .

Given that we are still debating here , and all seemingly coming up with well-reasoned points of view , some thought should be given to having the teams be able to appeal the result .

I don't think the current rule prevents Ferrari from appealing the decision of the stewards. Ferrari has initially indicated the intention of appealling. After heads has cooled, l would be quite surprised if they follow through with it. The stewards were flawless on this matter. The rules however, may need tweeking to allow the stewards to apply discretion.

The problem with discretion is it introduces an increase in inconsistency. If we take this on going discussion for example, we notice how varied the views are on the matter. The same would apply to the various stewards that would be occasioned to make a decision on these infractions. What l am getting at is that there is no easy answer for this situation. Sometimes, we just have to swallow a bitter pill such as this one. It is life, sometimes it is fair, other times it can be darn hard on us.

[The Black Knight]

Ross Brawn agrees that there needs to be more transparency over Stewards decisions on whether to penalise a driver or not:

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/144015/brawn-f1-should-explain-future-penalties-better

Have to agree a move like this is badly needed as fans don’t have enough information to understand wholly the decisions. Plus having such a process in place would force better more accurately penalties and an overall better standard of officiating lest there be a total fan backlash.

[The Black Knight]

I don't think the current rule prevents Ferrari from appealing the decision of the stewards. Ferrari has initially indicated the intention of appealling. After heads has cooled, l would be quite surprised if they follow through with it. The stewards were flawless on this matter. The rules however, may need tweeking to allow the stewards to apply discretion.

The problem with discretion is it introduces an increase in inconsistency. If we take this on going discussion for example, we notice how varied the views are on the matter. The same would apply to the various stewards that would be occasioned to make a decision on these infractions. What l am getting at is that there is no easy answer for this situation. Sometimes, we just have to swallow a bitter pill such as this one. It is life, sometimes it is fair, other times it can be darn hard on us.

Ferrari can’t appeal the Stewards decision and conclusion of the incident (article 38.3) they can only appeal the Stewards decision to investigate the incident in the first place (38.1)

https://www.fia.com/file/78014/download/26183



The stewards may impose any one of the penalties below on any driver involved in an Incident :
a) A five second time penalty. The driver must enter the pit lane, stop in his pit stop position for at least five seconds and then re‐join the race. The relevant driver may however elect not to stop, provided he carries out no further pit stop before the end of the race. In such cases five seconds will be added to the elapsed race time of the driver concerned.
b) A ten second time penalty. The driver must enter the pit lane, stop in his pit stop position for at least ten seconds and then re‐join the race. The relevant driver may however elect not to stop, provided he carries out no further pit stop before the end of the race. In such cases ten seconds will be added to the elapsed race time of the driver concerned.
In both of the above cases the driver concerned must carry out the penalty the next time he enters the pit lane and, for the avoidance of doubt, this includes any stop the driver makes whilst a VSC or safety car procedure is in use.
c) A drive‐through penalty. The driver must enter the pit lane and re‐join the race without stopping.
d) A ten second stop‐and‐go time penalty. The driver must enter the pit lane, stop in his pit stop position for at least ten seconds and then re‐join the race.
If any of the four penalties above are imposed upon a driver, and that driver is unable to serve the penalty due to retirement from the race, the stewards may impose a grid place penalty on the driver at his next Event.
If any of the four penalties above are imposed during the last three laps, or after the end of a race, Article 38.4(b) below will not apply and five seconds will be added to the elapsed race time of the driver concerned in the case of (a) above, 10 seconds in the case of (b), 20 seconds in the case of (c) and 30 seconds in the case of (d).
e) A time penalty.
f) A reprimand.
g) A drop of any number of grid positions at the driver’s next Event.
If any of the seven penalties above are imposed they shall not be subject to appeal.
h) Disqualification from the results.
i) Suspension from the driver’s next Event.


I don’t think they have a hope as the Stewards can essentially investigate what they want.

[truefan72]

Ferrari Forgot to inform LeClerc of Vettel Penalty!
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/144013/ferrari-forgot-to-inform-leclerc-of-vettel-penalty

but of course they did. SMH.

[Bagwan]

I hope the stewards are paid handsomely for their efforts .

And , I hope this whole issue is dealt with , as it seems there are a lot of arguable aspects of this incident .
To have moments where so many are outraged , including names like Stewart , Andretti , and Mansell , makes Seb's words about modern F1 ring a little too loudly , and gestures like bringing Vettel onto the top step a bit hollow .

Here's a question : Did anyone switch back the number signs in front of the cars after Seb changed them ?

[The Black Knight]

Ferrari Forgot to inform LeClerc of Vettel Penalty!
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/144013/ferrari-forgot-to-inform-leclerc-of-vettel-penalty

but of course they did. SMH.

“Forgot”.

LeCLerc mentioned in post race interviews as well that they never informed him.

[Nitrodaze]

Ferrari can’t appeal the Stewards decision and conclusion of the incident (article 38.3) they can only appeal the Stewards decision to investigate the incident in the first place (38.1)

https://www.fia.com/file/78014/download/26183



I don’t think they have a hope as the Stewards can essentially investigate what they want.

That section of the rules do not prevent Ferrari from appealling the decision of the stewards. It simply insist that the team and driver must comply with the penalty within the specification of this section within the particular race. The appeal procedures is defined elsewhere and follow a mechanism outside the scope of the stewards. If Ferrari wishes to appeal they can do so. They just need to raise the matter with the appeal commission at their next sitting.

But l doubt they would do so for obvious reasons. Ferrari would want this matter to end quickly as it only serves to highlight how they have lost again when all the advantages were in their favor.

[Nitrodaze]

Ferrari Forgot to inform LeClerc of Vettel Penalty!
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/144013/ferrari-forgot-to-inform-leclerc-of-vettel-penalty

but of course they did. SMH.

You can imagine how much of a bigger problem this would be for Ferrari if they created a situation where Leclerc sneaks into 2nd place with Vettel relegated further to 3rd. Of course they did not forget. They just managed the situation wisely, l think.

[The Black Knight]

That section of the rules do not prevent Ferrari from appealling the decision of the stewards. It simply insist that the team and driver must comply with the penalty within the specification of this section within the particular race. The appeal procedures is defined elsewhere and follow a mechanism outside the scope of the stewards. If Ferrari wishes to appeal they can do so. They just need to raise the matter with the appeal commission at their next sitting.

But l doubt they would do so for obvious reasons. Ferrari would want this matter to end quickly as it only serves to highlight how they have lost again when all the advantages were in their favor.

No, it states:

If any of the seven penalties above are imposed they shall not be subject to appeal.

It does not state:

If any of the seven penalties above are imposed they shall not be subject to appeal during the race.

[Nitrodaze]

Great decision by the stewards. They were like some football referees that think they don't get enough spotlight and make sure they get all the attention. I suppose that from now on when a driver makes a mistake and disturbs the other delicate genius behind him it's all done and dusted. As some have pointed out, the penalty is also quite perverse. In a situation like this one, the penalized driver can't even make up for his mistake. When they handed out this retarded penalty, they decided who wins 80% or something into the race.

One reason I like F1 so little nowadays is because of these two. I don't really care if any of them wins. Vettel just showed everybody what a petulant spoilt brat he is. He really knows how to take it with dignity. And Hamilton, oh Hamilton, what a gentleman, what a sportsman, no? He took the gift with so much dignity and even offered some empty gestures... but when it all happened he bitched and moaned instantly over the radio. But our beloved tattooed gentleman with 10 earrings and douchebag hairdo didn't want to win like this. There's a huge chasm between who this guy pretends to be and who he really is.

Actually, in recent times, Vettel has been very proper and a model racer, especially after his wheel banging with Hamilton in Baku. Hardly gets into trouble with the powers that be. So it was great to see some emotion and angry gesture from him. It shows he still cares about winning. It shows he wants Ferrari to do well. I liked what l saw actually. But l think the world of racing would go ballistic if Hamilton did the same thing though.
It was the kind of attitude that we come to expect from Max Verstapenn. That's why it was interesting and entertaining to see a four time world champion do it.

[Nitrodaze]

No, it states:

If any of the seven penalties above are imposed they shall not be subject to appeal.

It does not state:

If any of the seven penalties above are imposed they shall not be subject to appeal during the race.

Yes you are correct, l missed that. I suppose the Stewards decision is final in this case. It is interesting to note that the same section places upon the stewards the discretion to investigate and the discretion to apply a penalty. It also gives the steward the get out of jail card of imposing a warning.

There is something wrong with the lack of the ability to appeal a decision. I think that needs to change.

Well, it is what it is

[Warriwa]

I agree with others here. Vettel cut the corner of the track. That is what he should have been penalised for. A position change seemed obvious, not a time penalty. ( obvious from my lounge chair of course )

[journeyman racer]

Vettel is still a reasonable chance to win the championship. Leclerc is no chance. It's not really a big deal on this occasion.

[Bagwan]

The Seb/Lewis controversy isn't over , as the reds have claimed a right to review , believing they have new evidence .

[The Black Knight]

I can’t really see Ferrari getting anywhere with it or how they can reverse the result now. Were they to say to Seb you’ve now won, then Mercedes will just claim they would have pushed harder to get by Vettel and win it on track opposed to just sitting pretty behind him assured of the win.

Ferrari are just flogging a dead horse now.

[Bagwan]

I can’t really see Ferrari getting anywhere with it or how they can reverse the result now. Were they to say to Seb you’ve now won, then Mercedes will just claim they would have pushed harder to get by Vettel and win it on track opposed to just sitting pretty behind him assured of the win.

Ferrari are just flogging a dead horse now.

I get your point , but if they have new evidence that shows the red guy wasn't at fault , isn't a little unfair to not change the result ?

What I mean to say is , if it's clear , doesn't it degrade the win for the silver guy ?

It was clear to Seb in the dying laps , that he had to get a 5 second gap to win . He knew it , and couldn't .
It was also clear that Lewis had to keep that gap under that amount , and did so , but with a few lockups on the way .
This says to me , that Hamilton , in a car famous for being twitchy following others , at a circuit said to be as hard to pass at as Monaco , battling a car that had better top speed , driven by a 4 time world champion who had already kept him behind for many laps on a really hot day where the tires were graining on everybody , wasn't very likely to have gotten past Seb , even if highly motivated .

If it's a case of "clear" versus a "less likely scenario" , then isn't it just justice ?
I'm not trying to be provocative .

[The Black Knight]

Fair, in that case, would have been Mercedes to know the result would be thrown out and have had the opportunity to throw the kitchen sink at Ferrari. Whether he could have gotten past or not is really unknown. Mercedes will claim they pressured him into one mistake and reversing the penalty ensured they didn’t get the opportunity to do so a second time and, lets face it, given Vettel’s track record against Hamilton it’s highly likely that could have happened.

Ferrari have to suck this one up. Anything other than the official race result as it currently stands will just become even more humiliating for the sport. I give the review about a one in a billion chance of success for that reason alone.

[Bagwan]

Isn't it just a little humiliating for the sport to have the silver team win them all , even when they don't ?

That's the other side of the coin , if they really can prove what they say .
Just sayin' .

[N. Jones]

We've had controversy before and we will have controversy again.

[Bagwan]

We've had controversy before and we will have controversy again.

Deep as Davey's locker , Mr. Jones . Hee hee .

[The Black Knight]

Isn't it just a little humiliating for the sport to have the silver team win them all , even when they don't ?

That's the other side of the coin , if they really can prove what they say .
Just sayin' .

Whatever they prove/argue Mercedes can counter it with their own. It’d be more humiliating to take the win off them now a couple of weeks later.

It’s up to the other teams to raise their game and challenge Mercedes.

[Nitrodaze]

No, it states:

If any of the seven penalties above are imposed they shall not be subject to appeal.

It does not state:

If any of the seven penalties above are imposed they shall not be subject to appeal during the race.

Apparently Ferrari believes the no appeal clause do not apply if the Stewards have made an apparent mistake. This is also a great argument against this clause. If there was an apparent error in the decision of the stewards, teams must be able to shed light on the error by providing proper evidence to demonstrate the fact.

Looking back now, it has become apparent that the regulations empowered the stewards with the right latitude of discretion to employ during the deliberation exercise. In this case, the stewards did not give the appropriate level of the benefit of the doubt to Vettel. On the face of it, the rules was applied correctly, but it was done harshly with very little margins. It was a punishment that the fans felt also very deeply, which is an indication to me that there was something wrong with how the penalty was dealt.

That said, any remedy is likely to also create a new problem. As you have alluded to, Mercedes would feel hard done by and challenge any decision to revert the win to Ferrari. Even if they let it go, it sets a problematic precedent. I don't know it there has ever been a situation where wins has been taken away after the ceremony and the race weekend is past.

[journeyman racer]

This is a scenario I could see Ferrari taking to the Court of Arbitration for Sport.

[gm99]

This is a scenario I could see Ferrari taking to the Court of Arbitration for Sport.

Does CAS even have jurisdiction vis á vis Formula One apart from doping infrigements? I have never heard of a single F1-related case being decided by CAS, which leads me to believe that there is no arbitration agreement with regard to the FIA.

[The Black Knight]

Does CAS even have jurisdiction vis á vis Formula One apart from doping infrigements? I have never heard of a single F1-related case being decided by CAS, which leads me to believe that there is no arbitration agreement with regard to the FIA.

CAS, afaik, have no jurisdiction over F1 matters. Even Giedo van der Garde had to take his case through the Supreme Court of Victoria to get what he wanted in 2014. I still cannot believe Monisha Kaltenborn kept her job after such a colossal screw up she made that time.

[Bagwan]

I know this is over , but here's one last point I'd like to make .

Had Ferrari gotten this Canadian result overturned , the general consensus seems to be that Mercedes would have the right to feel aggrieved because they turned down Lewis's engine , instead of having him fight to get past Seb for the win .

So , rather than thrashing the motor , presumably on the most extreme settings , Lewis was now able to turn it down , certainly extending it's life .
With 3 engines per car per year , that could have a major effect on the championship .

[Nitrodaze]

I know this is over , but here's one last point I'd like to make .

Had Ferrari gotten this Canadian result overturned , the general consensus seems to be that Mercedes would have the right to feel aggrieved because they turned down Lewis's engine , instead of having him fight to get past Seb for the win .

So , rather than thrashing the motor , presumably on the most extreme settings , Lewis was now able to turn it down , certainly extending it's life .
With 3 engines per car per year , that could have a major effect on the championship .

I think Mercedes would rather take the win over the promise of engine life. Bird in hand if you get my drift.

[journeyman racer]

Alright. CAS doesn't have jurisdiction on F1. But I can see them possibly doing something about the result. What, idk.

[melaniepss]

l think the stewards do that on other occasions but in this instance where they should have been consistent.