Zandvoort to Replace Barcelona in 2019?

[truefan72]

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/143079/zandvoort-set-to-replace-barcelona-on-2020-calendar

Heh?
from the article "Barcelona is one of five circuits with expiring contracts at the end of 2019, along with Silverstone, Hockenheim, Monza and Mexico City. All face financial challenges, but the Spanish event is widely regarded as the most vulnerable after losing government support."

There is something fundamentally wrong with these track selections and extortion like fees requested (which I see continue past the bernie era) if a track requires government intervention and financial support to keep it afloat. I will never forgive Bernie for setting the bar so high that awesome tracks like malaysia and Turkey were completely priced out if the calendar, or the millions that India and South Korea invested to build state of the art facilities only to be extorted out of existence just 2 years later. Now we are going to get Vietnam, which I can guarantee you will be off the calendar by 2022.

As entertaining and compelling as the product is, the powers to be are going to kill this sport out of greed.
The absurd TV contracts significantly restricting an available viewing public, the exorbitant ticket prices and the loss of great venues due to ridiculous fees is gonna be the death of the sport.

Not to mention the ever changing regs that seem to only benefit 3 teams
Keep a stable regs for more than 3 years and you will see the field tighten.

[zako85]

Not to mention the ever changing regs that seem to only benefit 3 teams


RedBull and Ferrari would disagree with you about the "benefits".

And why do we have only three teams competing for the podiums? Because Williams turned itself into crap. Ditto McLaren. And Renault is basically the laughing stock among the "factory teams". I don't think regulations could help them.



Keep a stable regs for more than 3 years and you will see the field tighten.

Yeah, we had a very tight field before 2014 when the turbo-hybrid cars were introduced.

[gm99]

Barcelona has - with very few exceptions (1996 and 2016 coming to mind) - been the most consistingly boring race on the F1 calendar. Although I don't like Zandvoort and find it a circuit unfit for F1, it can't be much worse than Montmelo.

[Nitrodaze]

If you don't like Barcelona, chances are you would not like Zandvoort https://www.motorsportforums.com/showthread.php?40176-Dutch-Grand-Prix-Locations

I agree the venues are finding it hard to breakeven consistently because of the high price of staging an F1 weekend. That said, there seem to be ample replacements for departing venues and the quality of the new venues seem to be of higher quality as well. Since they are forced to meet the new regulations from the outset as opposed to getting existing circuits with financial challenges to modernize. There has also been compromises that has paid off, like Baku for instance. That said. l think Zandvoort would be taking things a bit too far.

The thing about "The absurd TV contracts significantly restricting an available viewing public" is, it is there to force fans to head to tracks so as to help the revenues of the circuits. But as it goes, that has not quite worked. Fans have dispersed to other avenues. Fan levels are probably not growing as a result as well.

I don't think the regulations are the problem. The cost to teams is the bigger problem and the reason why we only have ten teams on the grid.

[zako85]

I agree the venues are finding it hard to breakeven consistently because of the high price to stage an F1 weekend. That said, there seem to be ample replacements for departing venues and the quality of the new venues seem to be of higher quality as well.

This conflict here is not between "Old world" venues that allegedly are not ready to meet F1 standards vs "New world" race tracks that were built to meet all standards. The real conflict here is that the European largely privately owned for-profit race tracks with decades of history and with road courses soaked with not only with history but also with real blood of world's greatest racers are simply not able to compete with state-funded and state-built race tracks in the nouveau riche countries with no history, culture, or popularity of racing. For the later, holding an F1 race weekend is akin to holding Olympic games for two days. For this privilege, in order to promote their new country for business, the states are willing to may 20, 30, or 40 millions per race, and sign 10-year contracts. The traditional for-profit race tracks aren't able to compete with the wealth of entire governments to host the races.

As for high prices for TV/cable TV subscription, this has nothing to do with wanting to force people to travel to the race tracks. An American who doesn't want to pay 60 dollars a month instead of 30 for sports channel subscription will not travel to Thailand to see a Formula 1 race. The high prices for Formula 1 on TV are simply meant to force you to pay through your nose for the benefit of F1 rights stockholders, and they are willing to screw/fuck the ones who don't want to pay this much. This is the sad truth. F1 is a business that's meant to extract the most money from TV viewers, race attendants, and also from the race track owners. If you don't have the money, then you're screwed. This is the truth, and that's how F1 operates.

[truefan72]

This conflict here is not between "Old world" venues that allegedly are not ready to meet F1 standards vs "New world" race tracks that were built to meet all standards. The real conflict here is that the European largely privately owned for-profit race tracks with decades of history and with road courses soaked with not only with history but also with real blood of world's greatest racers are simply not able to compete with state-funded and state-built race tracks in the nouveau riche countries with no history, culture, or popularity of racing. For the later, holding an F1 race weekend is akin to holding Olympic games for two days. For this privilege, in order to promote their new country for business, the states are willing to may 20, 30, or 40 millions per race, and sign 10-year contracts. The traditional for-profit race tracks aren't able to compete with the wealth of entire governments to host the races.

As for high prices for TV/cable TV subscription, this has nothing to do with wanting to force people to travel to the race tracks. An American who doesn't want to pay 60 dollars a month instead of 30 for sports channel subscription will not travel to Thailand to see a Formula 1 race. The high prices for Formula 1 on TV are simply meant to force you to pay through your nose for the benefit of F1 rights stockholders, and they are willing to screw/fuck the ones who don't want to pay this much. This is the sad truth. F1 is a business that's meant to extract the most money from TV viewers, race attendants, and also from the race track owners. If you don't have the money, then you're screwed. This is the truth, and that's how F1 operates.

Agreed. I Think the problem is less about European tracks on the calendar. Because I think they are pretty well represented but rather the absurd prices on offer from the newer locations.
Malaysia, Turkey and even the Indian track were solid in my book. Plus I think another track in the Americas (argentina, Chile, USA) might be good for the sport if it is affordable.
There will come a time when literally nobody will want to host an F1 race because they are all being priced out or nobody will be willing to go to some despotic regime because they are hosting a race.
The problems the IOC is facing with finding Winter Olympic venues (apart from rampant corruption) is that most countries are pretty much done with the crazy levels of money being asked to host the darn thing, let alone infrastructure cost etc. I also hear that it is also becoming increasingly difficult to properly secure FIFA world cup venues because of the same situation.

Zaandvort is a joke of a track. even with modifications it still looks like something that isn't even up to par for F1 standards. It will become my least favorite track closely behind Red Bull Ring and Hockenheim which are both abominations of their predecessors.

[Nitrodaze]

This conflict here is not between "Old world" venues that allegedly are not ready to meet F1 standards vs "New world" race tracks that were built to meet all standards. The real conflict here is that the European largely privately owned for-profit race tracks with decades of history and with road courses soaked with not only with history but also with real blood of world's greatest racers are simply not able to compete with state-funded and state-built race tracks in the nouveau riche countries with no history, culture, or popularity of racing. For the later, holding an F1 race weekend is akin to holding Olympic games for two days. For this privilege, in order to promote their new country for business, the states are willing to may 20, 30, or 40 millions per race, and sign 10-year contracts. The traditional for-profit race tracks aren't able to compete with the wealth of entire governments to host the races.


I agree, government funded tracks are contributing to the high costs of hosting F1 weekends. My point was that it is getting easier for the promoters to find new government funded tracks such that they are caring less for the the traditional tracks. I don't think this is a situation that is likely to last. Because these sort of tracks are not necessarily due to a motivation for the love of the sport but as a means to an end. The private funded tracks are really motivated from a genuine love for formula one. Their commitment to F1 are likely to last as long as F1 exists as a racing operation.

Hence, l think the government funding bubble may burst as the political wind changes. When this happens, F1 may have to finds its way back to its roots.

And yes, the fans are also being screwed every which way. My point was that with lower prices and a fostered terrestrial TV audience, the popularity of the sport would grow at a faster rate than it is at the moment. I don't know what the statistical data is saying for the current state of affairs. But it is clear that the numbers are not healthy enough to consistently fill F1 venues to the point that makes good business sense for F1 venues like Silverstone to find it profitable. And that say something as the British grandprix attracts a vast army of f1 fans to its stands than most other venues.

India folded in two years because the tickets were too expensive for the fans to afford. Hence, they did not come to races. The same was observed for a few other venues where the stands were practically half full at the Sunday race. It was not a surprise to see Malaysia pull out. The German GP has; on a number occasions, not featured a F1 race. Chances of a sustained presence of the German GP on the F1 calendar is not looking promising.

That said, F1 is the pinnacle of motor racing. Everything about it is expensive. The design and continued development of the car through the season, is an expensive affair. The value of the incredible talents that come together to produce the spectacle that we enjoy are also substantial. Capping the cost as the promoters are seeking to do at the moment may well cascade downwards to lower costs of staging the events. And possibly lower prices of tickets. I hope they succeed, but l would not hold my breath.

[journeyman racer]

Alonso takes one year off, and the Spanish GP is under threat?

Malaysia, Turkey, India and South Korean had races due to money in the first place. They should never have been allowed to host GP because they're not "car racing" countries.

[Mintexmemory]

I was amazed at the huge spaces in the Barcelona grandstands yesterday. Perhaps I shouldn’t have been given the way, in 2016, when I was present at the race, that the Spanish packed up and went home the minute Alonso retired.

[N. Jones]

I think Malaysia is going to come back at some point. Turkey is such a cool track, so was South Korea.

I still miss Imola though.

[The Black Knight]

I think Malaysia is going to come back at some point. Turkey is such a cool track, so was South Korea.

I still miss Imola though.

Of all tracks that have been lost throughout the years, Imola is the one I long to come back the most.

[zako85]

So one lousy race track in Europe is replaced by another one. Who cares? Don't get carried away by this too much.

[The Black Knight]

I couldn’t care less about Barcelona either. Awful race track. I think one year in Barcelona there was only one overtake the entire race cirqua 2001-2004. Monaco had more that year.

[truefan72]

I couldn’t care less about Barcelona either. Awful race track. I think one year in Barcelona there was only one overtake the entire race cirqua 2001-2004. Monaco had more that year.

the problem with Barcelona is that useless final chicane ( turns 13, 14,15) and the shortened turn 10.
Go back to the old layout and you would see a much better track and way more overtaking.

I know the worry was the entry speed after turn 12 going all the way to the star straight, But i trust the cars and drivers now more to handle that part of the track.
If anything they could add a small jink (like turn 1, 2 or 7/8) between turn 12 and 15 in order to reduce a bit of the speed and allow the cars to close up slightly for the slipstream into the the front straight.

there, problem fixed. And with a year off they should do those changes
They can keep the old layout for testing etc.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9c/Formula1_Circuit_Catalunya.svg

[Big Ben]

the problem with Barcelona is that useless final chicane ( turns 13, 14,15) and the shortened turn 10.
Go back to the old layout and you would see a much better track and way more overtaking.

I know the worry was the entry speed after turn 12 going all the way to the star straight, But i trust the cars and drivers now more to handle that part of the track.
If anything they could add a small jink (like turn 1, 2 or 7/8) between turn 12 and 15 in order to reduce a bit of the speed and allow the cars to close up slightly for the slipstream into the the front straight.

there, problem fixed. And with a year off they should do those changes
They can keep the old layout for testing etc.


That's silly. Was it that different with the old layout? Reverting to the old layout would make the last turn faster which would make it more difficult for cars to follow each other. The problem is the way f1 cars work, too much downforce. And Barcelona is the track where all the winter testing happens. They really know this track. And the weather is almost always good so very few chances for it to mix the field a little.

[Nitrodaze]

Its official, Zandvoort is in the calendar for 2020. We have to give it the benefit of the doubt. It may turn out to be a pleasant surprise as was Baku. Though, l fail to see any sort of changes to the track to warrant its place on the calendar for 2020. Which would suggest that Liberty think only minor changes are required, which they probably think would be possible for the track owners to implement before the Zandvoort race next year.

I wonder if Bernie would even considered looking at Zanvoort to host a F1 race? This is one to watch. Fitting F1 into the very busy calendar of the Assen track may have contributed to Liberty opting for Zandvoort. Even so, it still makes me wonder.

[Storm]

So Zandvoort is additional race? 1 more for Mercedes to win?

This should have been instead of the Montmelo track which is the official test track anyway

[Nitrodaze]

So Zandvoort is additional race? 1 more for Mercedes to win?

This should have been instead of the Montmelo track which is the official test track anyway

Zandvoort is more a Redbull track than a Mercedes track. The straights are not long enough and there are quite a few punishing chicanes that Redbulls excel at.

[airshifter]

Well with Alonso now gone from F1 the fans in Spain are kind of mild. And though there might not be much passing at Zandvoort either, the sea of orange should be a change of pace. Especially since the RB tends to like such tracks.

I'm going to give it a chance before I think the worst. There are plenty of tracks where there is little overtaking but the strategy and passes that are made can still make for some good races.