Lets talk Bottas [Archive] - Motorsport Forums

airshifter

24th January 2019, 12:40

While I think it's safe to say nobody expected him to challenge Lewis, I hope that most of us expected more. I know I did.

Overall as far as the top teams go, the under performer of 2018 IMO. When you factor for DNFs beyond a drivers control (such as Ricciardo vs Max) almost all other teams had a reasonable battle between the team mates. The Merc team had one DNF each, and Lewis just flat out trashed Bottas. To top it off, he got beat by Kimi and Max as well, who both had 3-4 car related DNFs.

At the time I thought Merc were making a smart move and finding a good supporting driver for the team. After last year, I think maybe they got it wrong.

I hope he has a better 2019. I suspect if he doesn't then Merc might not have much choice.

N. Jones

24th January 2019, 17:38

He will be if he repeats last season. Personally I think he will be fine.

zako85

25th January 2019, 12:51

Without the team order at the Russian GP, which forced him to give up the race win, Bottas would have finished the 2018 season with 254 points and in 3rd position, behind second-place Vettel.

airshifter

27th January 2019, 15:05

Without the team order at the Russian GP, which forced him to give up the race win, Bottas would have finished the 2018 season with 254 points and in 3rd position, behind second-place Vettel.

Great point, but still lagging Lewis in epic fashion.

Even adjusting for Sochi, Bottas was 147 points behind Lewis, each with 1 DNF

Kimi was only 79 points behind Seb, and had 4 DNFs to Sebs 1

Ricciardo was 79 points behind Max with 8 DNFs to Max's 3

If we were to adjust for DNFs based on driver fault vs car failure, the battles in the Ferrari and RB teams get closer. Granted comparing anyone to Hamilton when he had a good season is hard, but that is still a big gap vs the other teams.

I hope he can up his game this season. If the Merc slips vs the competition, he may be a mid pack driver.

Bruno

28th January 2019, 11:54

I don't see Bottas being around in 2020 (not at Mercedes anyway) but I am ready to be proven wrong. He's obviously not a bad driver but Ferrari has been doing a good job shorting the gap and Mercedes will need a more solid driver line-up if they want a shot at the WCC

Samouri

30th January 2019, 00:11

Esteban Ocon acting as the Mercedes reserve or third driver, will have the sword of damocles hanging over Bottas head. If Valtteri doesn't have a much stronger 2019 season.

The Black Knight

4th February 2019, 11:00

Esteban Ocon acting as the Mercedes reserve or third driver, will have the sword of damocles hanging over Bottas head. If Valtteri doesn't have a much stronger 2019 season.

I’d rather have Bottas than Ocon as I think Ocon has a lot to learn especially when it comes to wheel to wheel racing. I’m still shocked by his stupidity in Brazil this year. Personally I think Mercedes should have fired Bottas this year and that they haven’t only tends me to believe that they also do not have 100% faith in Ocons race craft, otherwise I think he would have got the seat. The only reason Bottas still has a drive is that no one else of significant quality was available. Next season that’ll be different.

Samouri

5th February 2019, 21:46

The Black Knight...…Ocon made a clumsy move on Verstappen at Brazil, no question about that. But, I kind of liked the fact Esteban had shown, that he wasn't willing to be intimidated by the likes of Max, and mix it up with him.
The on track clashes that Ocon had, and especially with his teammate Perez, may have given some to question his race craft, but I doubt very much that ToTo shares that view, or opinion.

journeyman racer

21st March 2019, 11:26

Sometimes some people need to adjust to a new unexpected situation. You'd like to think progress is linear, but it mostly isn't.

Bottas was ordinary last year. There were more factors affecting his result than just underperforming.

Bottas performed better than Hamilton in 4 of the first 7 races last year. He just didn't get the results. When Vettel became a seriously challenger in the standings, this then affects the way MB treat him. His results became expendable (Same with Ferrari to Raikkonen).

Most notably this occurred in Russia. But it was like that throughout the last 2/3s of the season. Holding station behind Hamilton in Germany. Compromising his performance to affect Raikkonen at Monza.

But he has to take responsibility for the team compromising his results, because he didn't put the points on the board in the beginning of the season. 34pts behind Hamilton after Canada (Who lost the title lead) made it an easy decision for the team to compromise his performances. It's a different situation if he was closer to Ham in the points.

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/reports/f1/2019-australian-grand-prix-report?utm_campaign=875633_PRINCESS%20MPH%20-%20180319%20-%20Australian%20GP&utm_medium=email&utm_source=emailCampaign&dm_i=4DIP,IRN5,1M5U3W,267XD,1

“Maybe his years at Williams and then the shock draft into Mercedes was something he needed to digest” – Toto Wolff

Damn right, Toto.

Zico

21st March 2019, 12:24

First race of the season, one where he has been truly outstandingly quick and faultless.
Great for him and us as spectators, but going forward I'm not expecting him to be consistant.

If I see a continuation of that form over the next 5-6 races I think only then will I consider him to be a genuine WDC contender for 2019.

Nitrodaze

22nd March 2019, 05:56

N4D13

22nd March 2019, 09:20

So Bottas turned up this season and smashed everyone at the first race of the season, But is he safe yet? I also hear Toto is leaving Mercedes at the end of this or next season, what does this mean for Bottas?
I doubt it makes much of a difference for him. If he does a good job, he'll be retained - if he doesn't, he's out. Although we also need to keep in mind that Mercedes don't exactly have a great replacement at hand, since the obvious choice is the rather crash-prone Ocon. Unless 2019 is a complete disaster for Bottas like 2018 was -although the first signs have been rather encouraging-, I can't see Merc dropping him with or without Wolff.

gm99

22nd March 2019, 13:32

Also, I think Bottas is easier to handle for Mercedes than Ocon. Bottas has already shown last year he can be a team player when asked to, Ocon's history with his team-mate Perez may cast doubts whether he would be prepared to move over if so required by his team.

journeyman racer

1st April 2019, 11:29

Obviously it's still early days. I may very well have misinterpret what I saw, and it may be meaningless anyway. But with the reference to last year's calamity season from Bottas. I still thin there was substantial improvement from Bottas last night.

Obviously Bahrain will be remembered for Leclerc performance and misfortune. Hamilton gets another win, easing the sore backside of his fans all over the world after Albert Park.

This is what Bottas faced last night. The Ferraris and Hamilton got him in qualifying. They were better performing than him during the race, and he was struggling with his own issues and making some error.

Had this scenario occurred last year, he more than likely would've finished 4th or worse. Someone like Verstappen would've been ahead of him, and he'd have been so far out of it that he might not have taken advantage of another's mechanical failure.

But not last night. He didn't let the gap or track position completely derail his performance and result and he got 2nd.

On the surface and to most people including his critics. It was an unremarkable 2nd in his designated position of finishing behind Hamilton. But accounting for factors I've mentioned earlier, I think it was an improvement in performance on par with the win at Albert Park.

But it's only two races down. His challenge for the rest of the season (regardless of what anyone else does) is to replicate his last two races over the next 19. So we'll see.

journeyman racer

29th April 2019, 14:24

This thread's topic is done afaic.

We now have to ask - Has Esteban Ocon already driven his last F1 race?

Nitrodaze

2nd May 2019, 23:22

Bottas is a new man this season. He has met fans and teams expectations this season so far. There is a new swagger to his strides as he walks the paddock. And he has found new levels of respect for his fellow drivers as well. For the second time, he leads the driver's championship with a narrow margin of one point. But l suspect, Hamilton may be taking things easy with Bottas at the moment for whatever reason. Especially since the Ferrari pair are not in close proximity in the points. I think this may change going forward and Bottas may need to find another level to keep himself in the frame for the title as the season progresses.

Based on his current form, l have no doubt that he would find a way to be there about. But l wonder if he can sustain it to the end of the season. We generally expect him to win it or be no less than 2nd or immediately behind Hamilton. I typically support the underdog, hence, l am quietly routing for Bottas to surprise. But you never write off Hamilton, Bottas would need to produce something special to be on top this season.

Big Ben

3rd May 2019, 15:27

Firstgear

3rd May 2019, 18:00

What a wonderful guy that Hamilton is, letting Bottas win a couple. I was sure he would have liked to win 4 out of 4 and have all the fast lap points as well if possible. What a cynical bastard I've become.
He's not letting Bottas win, he's orchestrating a Mercedes 1-2. You see, if Hamilton scampered off into the distance and lapped the entire field (like we all know he easily could), Bottas would quickly fall prey to the Ferrari's, Red Bull's and even the Williams. Bottas needs Hamilton behind him to fend off everybody else and thereby ensure a Mercedes 1-2. Hamilton will still win when it matters. He's so fast that he can even lap his own shadow. He only loses when he chooses to.
Other little known facts about Hamilton: The first time he bowled, he scored a perfect 300. Similarly, in his first ever round of golf, he had 5 hole-in one holes for 38 under par round.

Zico

3rd May 2019, 21:35

Its all true. Lewis is the most superist superstar in the world. I even named my son after him.

The Black Knight

4th May 2019, 06:50

Its all true. Lewis is the most superist superstar in the world. I even named my son after him.

And I even gave my son a firstname beginning with L and middle-name beginning with H so to help the #TeamLH hashtag live on forever.

Bagwan

4th May 2019, 15:50

Bottas has been overtaken in his own thread .
There's just no fight left in him , clearly .

airshifter

5th May 2019, 15:23

Bottas has been overtaken in his own thread .
There's just no fight left in him , clearly .

Sorry, I accidentally pushed the radio button, so he slowed down.

Being serious now though, I'm not sure what Bottas is doing or Lewis isn't doing this year. But he does seem to have more of a challenge in him. I was skeptical when Mercedes chose him to fill the seat, but if he keeps performing like this he's going to make a believer out of me.

Nitrodaze

5th May 2019, 21:58

I hear the cynicism in the air about Hamilton. However, everyone is bracing themselves for when the real fight between Hamilton and Bottas kicks off. The points as it stand at the moment is giving notice to Hamilton that if he do not want a repeat of 2016 where Rosberg ramped up confidence and stole the championship from under his nose, he would need to start putting in performances to put some distance between himself and Bottas.

That said, l have a feeling that Bottas is probably prepared for that. Which inevitably may spark an inhouse Mercedes battle for the championship. This might be very good for Ferrari as it did for Kimi in 2003 when Alonso and Hamilton fought each other hard at Mclaren only to lose the drivers title to Ferrrari by one point.

We know how methodical and ruthless Hamilton can be in a rivalry fight for the title. The real question is, is Bottas hard enough to do battle with Hamilton when it comes to it. It took Rosberg three seasons to get to the point where he could prevail; although under quite questionable circumstances. Can Bottas do it in two seasons? Can he stand the heat of the battle. This is what l am looking forward to see.

I like a great story, hence l am hoping that he can do something remarkable and worthy of F1 history and folklore.

journeyman racer

6th May 2019, 09:44

I'm not sure what Bottas is doing
He's driving the car to what it's capable of. That is what all the good drivers do.

or Lewis isn't doing this year.
Hamilton isn't not doing anything this year. 2019 is the second best start after 4 races he's had in his career, 2015 being the best.

On the other hand of all his team mates, only Rosberg's first four races of 2016 season is better than Bottas' first 4 from this year.

edit: Bottas is now going toe to toe with Hamilton. If he keeps this up, Hamilton has to effectively beat himself to win the championship. How do you do that?

journeyman racer

15th June 2019, 10:25

I'll tell you how!

Just reviewing Bottas' results. He's stepped up his game this year, but it still feels a forlorn hope he could challenge for the championship.

Since MB have been the leading team, the 133pts he's scored so far this year would be enough to lead the championship in 16 & 18, and the leading MB in 17. Of the combined 12 seasons MB drivers have had to this point since 14, Bottas' season this year is the 5th best. So there's still room for improvement despite him lifting his game. He's 29pts behind Hamilton, but he hasn't done a lot wrong. It's be hard to make up those 29pts without some adversity for Hamilton.

You analyse his season. He was going toe to toe with Hamilton til Monaco. There he qualified 2nd to Hamilton, which is the least you could do. But even though he qualified on pole in the previous 3 races, it didn't affect the race. In Monaco, qualifying 2nd and not beating Hamilton into the first corner meant he became vulnerable to a safety car period and had to back up those behind to clear the way for a double stack. This eventually lead to a clash with Verstappen and the ensuing puncture which meant he lost another position for another stop. Had he beat Hamilton to the first corner, it could've been Hamilton whose race was compromised and Bottas could've won. In hindsight, he'd have been better off qualifying on the 2nd-3rd row.

In Canada, he made the error in qualifying which contributed to his poor result. That meant he was out of position to where he should be and lost more ground in the championship to Hamilton. Had he just qualified 3rd and stayed behind Hamilton throughout the race, maybe he could've taken 2nd with the errors Hamilton was making and he could've had the win with Vettel's error and subsequent penalty.

Hamilton has had the best start after seven races an MB driver has ever had, and people will applaud him for it. Two of his wins have effectively been inherited.

If Bottas finishes second this year, people will be humdrum about it. But his best has been better than Hamilton's best so far. But sometimes, some qualifying/race performance are more important than others, and it doesn't take much for a really good overall performance to still not be good enough. That's the **** you have to avoid to win a championship.

Nitrodaze

15th June 2019, 20:21

I think Bottas is still looking good. Verstapenn and Redbull sort of screwed up his championship fight to a small extent. He has to recover from it and re insert himself into the fight proper. Canada is a Hamilton track, hence l sort expected Bottas to be behind. But he clearly had an off day and drifted further behind than he hoped. At best he should have been ahead of the Ferrari. But that is no reason to write him off. He is still in it, he just need to regain ground.

If Bottas finish second this season, he would be well appreciated for it. Anything less and he would be castigated from all quarters. He drove magnificently at start of the season. I think he would bounce back.

journeyman racer

16th June 2019, 08:04

I expect him to win more and at least finish 2nd. But of the 14 races left I'm not sure he can get the 4+ wins over Hamilton to make up the points without some adversity for Hamilton (Which you can't rely on).

He made an error in Bahrain, and Hamilton got by which led to him winning. Hamilton slipped up a couple of times in Montreal, but Bottas wasn't there to take advantage of it. That stuff makes a difference more that a spectacular qualifying or race performance.

The Black Knight

16th June 2019, 09:47

A couple of lock ups from Lewis in Canada when attacking Vettel with zero pressure behind him doesn’t mean he would have done the same thing had Bottas been behind him. As the posts here point out, Hamilton generally only makes these mistakes when it matters the least so I doubt he would have done the same had Bottas been behind him.

journeyman racer

16th June 2019, 11:08

lololol

How precious can you get???

Btw, in half of Hamilton's wins in 16, he locked up and made errors. But Rosberg didn't punish him by being conservative, and he didn't get penalties (Like he should've) in other races. So your generalisation is wrong (Again).

I was hypothetically concluding had Bottas qualified behind him.But since Bottas' best in qualifying has been better than Hamilton so far. Whatever Hamilton would've done is irrelevant and it could've been Bottas that could've benefited form the penalty.

But he's given Hamilton a margin of error, when Hamilton hasn't done so for him. He has to deal with that.

The Black Knight

16th June 2019, 11:44

Oh dear, it’s not my generalisation, it’s yours. You said Bottas was not there to capitalise. I am simply pointing out it’s unlikely Hamilton would have made those lockup’s had Bottas been there. I’n agreeing with your post just adding the point the lockups are perhaps not as relevant as you’re making them out to be.

You’re obsessed with 2016.

journeyman racer

16th June 2019, 14:05

Mine weren't generalisation. They were Hypotheticals.

They were done so to highlight how Bottas has performed, where he's lost out and what subtle factors contribute to him losing ground.

I point out 2016 because I remember it better than other season. This season potentially could lead that way where little moments here or there could have a bigger impact on the championship than what they normally do.

The Black Knight

17th June 2019, 10:21

Well hypothetically Hamilton wouldn’t have made those lockups were Bottas behind him and there’s no guarantee Bottas would have been able to be in such close contention anyway as he generally seems to not have Hamilton’s race pace although his qualifying has improved drastically.

Little moments didn’t decide the 2016 title, reliability did. If you remember 2016 well then you should remember that.

journeyman racer

17th June 2019, 11:08

I remember the failing engine Rosberg had in Monaco. This meant MB enforced team orders which favoured Hamilton. That, and not getting a penalty for the same thing Vettel copped in Montreal, contributed to Hamilton's win that day . Had there been no mechanical problem for him in Monaco, Rosberg would've won easily.

journeyman racer

17th June 2019, 11:32

Objectively, it just shows how insecure Hamilton fans like TBK are.

I brought up an hypothetical that gave the benefit of the doubt that Hamilton would've beat Bottas in qualifying had Bottas not made a mistake!

The probability was likely that Bottas might got pole of outqualified Hamilton.

But no. Hamilton wouldn't have made those errors had Bottas had been behind him, only if he was a long way behind or in front.

edit: Although even if Hamilton didn't make any errors during the race because Bottas was behind him (he made at least 2). What could've happened was that Bottas would've been just that little bit behind that he could've made the correct decision to go left, instead going right and off track limits like Hamilton did.

So my original point is made. He could've won anyway had he not screwed up his qualifying.

The Black Knight

17th June 2019, 12:23

Rosberg was struggling with brake temperatures in Monaco 2016. Hamilton was also struggling with the same issue of brake temperatures, Hamilton simply managed his better and Mercedes ordered Rosberg to let him through so they could win. But then again, you remember this very well and your objective isn’t scewed at all.

Just like I’m sure you remember the 5 races that year where engine issues cost Hamilton points while Rosberg had a pretty much perfect season reliability wise (as near perfect as it gets anyway).

journeyman racer

17th June 2019, 13:29

It had nothing to do with brake/tyre temperatures. You're just hanging onto that. As Ricciardo has proved you can win at Monaco in a failing car. Team orders benefitted Hamilton, otherwise he wouldn't have won.

You're not acknowledging all the factors that went in favour of Hamilton that year (More so than for Rosberg). I've already done so, and will be happy to bump the relevant threads again.

The point is that this thread is about Bottas. He's gone toe to toe with Hamilton this year, but the points gap to Hamilton is disproportionate and doesn't reflect his performance .

I'll repeat. He qualified 2nd in Monaco, which is the minimum you could expect. By not beating Hamilton off the line, this became disproportionally disadvantageous in the subsequent safety car period. He had lost more ground in the title race than he deserved.

Then in Montreal, his own error in qualifying cost him a chance of the win. It was possible to win even had he qualified 3rd, as I've demonstrated.

His best has been better than Hamilton this year. But Hamilton has a comfortable margin atm without doing anything exceptional (2 of his wins have been inherited), and this will be hard for Bottas to overcome on his own performance. It's all due to minor lapses that have been costly, as opposed to any superiority Hamilton has.

Now let's see how your insecurities come up in your next post.

The Black Knight

17th June 2019, 15:55

It was brake issues for Rosberg and Hamilton in Monaco 2016.
Rosberg himself confirmed it as did Mercedes. Both drivers had the same issue.

You’re the one that keeps mentioning 2016 as well as Monaco that year, also claiming your memory is top dog of that season but can’t get basics right. I didn’t bring them up first, you did, so hardly my insecurities. I know reliability decided the 2016 F1 title and have zero doubt about it either.

Agreed re Bottas. Hamilton hasn’t been superior speedwise really. He has simply delivered when it matters most. One might count that as superiority though, depending on how you look at it.

journeyman racer

19th June 2019, 10:55

Of course you think reliability decided the 2016 F1 title. You live vicariously through Hamilton due to your lack of self esteem.

Right, I'm going to have to sort this **** out. Your insecurities has clogged up this thread. I will be starting other threads so you don't ruin this one.

Brake or engine issues, it was a faulty mechanical part on Rosberg's car that meant he was forced to comply with team orders to let Hamilton through (His championship rival). Hamilton received a cheap, hollow win that day, and the final championship points flatters him.

If you want to carry on, you can do so when I start a thread about it.

journeyman racer

23rd June 2019, 00:59

Well, you said it. Now you've got to do it.

BOTTAS: "It's been super-close between Lewis and I all weekend and there's only been a few hundredths between us. We've had a strong car all weekend. There's a long run into Turn 1, so there's a chance...

journeyman racer

26th June 2019, 03:36

Apparently there's an interview of Woolf by RTL? Acknowledging these bigger gaps Bottas is conceding to Hamilton in the races like China, Spain and France. Apparently it's an accumulation of little things that lead to a big gap. The team and Bottas all know what it is and what has to happen to prevent it. But obviously I/we don't.

The Black Knight

29th June 2019, 22:52

When was the last time Bottas v2.0 out qualified Hamilton? I think that’s 4 races on the trot Hamilton has out qualified him now.

Today Bottas was unable to do so again on what is labelled a “Bottas” (v1.0?) track by some.

He needs to step it up as Hamilton finally appears to be getting more comfortable with the car and Bottas v2.0 is slipping behind.

journeyman racer

30th June 2019, 04:09

Bottas should outqualify Hamilton as soon as possible so that it doesn't become a thing critics can point at (Same with Hulkenberg and the streak Riccardo had over him). The biggest deal is who is in front when the race settles after the start.

The 149pts he's amassed in the races so far would've led the 16&18 championship at this point, and been the leading MB in 17.

He's fine so far. He just has to pick and choose when he's going to be **** so that it doesn't lose big time. He also might want to figure out why he falls back 8secs+ in some races where he's finished 2nd to Hamilton. It just takes the pressure off Hamilton and allows him a margin of error. Errors Bottas could've taken advantage of if he didn't blunder qualifying in Canada.

The Black Knight

1st July 2019, 05:39

31 points now between Bottas and Hamilton.

Both Mercedes drivers were hindered by overheating issues which dictated their pace today, however, Bottas seemed to use up his tires much more than Hamilton during the first stint.

Onto Silverstone we go but a lucky break for Bottas at the office. Without Hamilton’s penalty of we could be looking at a 40+ point difference in the title race now.

Bottas still needs to up his game.

journeyman racer

1st July 2019, 08:10

What on earth would he have to do to up his game?

The 164pts he's amassed during the races so far would've still led the 16&18 championship. Been the leading MB in and been 1pt behind Rosberg in 14.

I would say he's now at least 1 win short of par this season. It's now a drought. It'll now become a thing if he doesn't win asap.

Starter

1st July 2019, 13:54

The Black Knight

2nd July 2019, 09:42

One small problem with that. This isn't 14. 16 or 18.

And there’s the crux...

journeyman racer

2nd July 2019, 10:59

One small problem with that. This isn't 14. 16 or 18.

Have you missed the point?

Starter

2nd July 2019, 14:21

Have you missed the point?
No, the point is quite clear = "Dead Horse".

journeyman racer

3rd July 2019, 13:55

I'm not going to even bother with your post.

journeyman racer

3rd July 2019, 14:31

Anyway, doing the maths. Bottas is on track to score 387pts this season, 382 without the projected 5FL.

382 would've been enough to miss out on the 14 c'ship by 2, win 15 by 1, miss out in 16 by 3, win 17 by 19, and lose 18 by 26. The WC's average since MB have had the best car since 14 has been 384.2. Bottas is in line to beat that, but it still might not be enough. So to say he has to up his game is moot.

It's not like he can magically become a second quicker than Hamilton and overrun him. It's not like he can wave a wand in Austria, and make his tyres fresher and car cooler. Walk past Verstappen and Leclerc and put 15pts between him and Hamilton. It's not like there's going to be a wildcard race, where the winner is going to get 50 bonus points. Bottas wins and Hamilton dnfs.

Even if now the Ferrari's and RB get their share of wins, and Hamilton doesn't win a race for the rest of the season. Let's says he averages 4th? That's 144pts and 341 for the season, 344 throwing in a few FL. That's not going to be easy for Bottas to overcome even with his current form line. If he does, it's realistically going be til the second last race before he does.

To say he has to up his game is kind of pointless as he's already going at almost full capacity. It's like going up to Yohan Blake and Tyson Gay, who are the second fastest men in history with 9.69 in the 100m. The saying Usain Bolt's fastest time is 9.59, you're going to have to up your game. It's not really taking into account all factors that contribute to the results.

journeyman racer

4th July 2019, 13:51

Hopefully Starter is taking a rest from lurking on here, as he may get a bit upset.

But in the Austrian GP thread, he made a quote that caught my eye regarding the possible consequences of the Verstappen cheap shot on Leclerc...

Max could be kicking himself as Bottas took an undeserved win from him

Now, I don't notice Starter's post to know if he's particularly critical or dismissive of Bottas. But it's those kind of moments that can subtly affect who wins the championship.

Let's just say Verstappen/Leclerc got into sufficiently hard clash to allow Bottas to win? That would've been an extra 10pts Bottas would've got towards the championship on Hamilton for pretty much doing nothing.

Somehow you have to make those random moments work for you. Bottas hasn't, as Hamilton is +14pts on him from the season so far due to other's adversity/errors.

journeyman racer

15th July 2019, 11:01

As opposed to just being the leading MB in 17. Bottas' haul of 182pts so far would be leading the last 3 seasons at this point. 20 behind Hamilton in 15 and 8pts behind Rosberg in 14.

You can sit there and pick holes in whatever he's doing relative to Hamilton this year. But it typically isn't as costly as it normally would be during the course of a season.

journeyman racer

29th July 2019, 00:18

Bottas has to understand one thing if he wants to win the championship. That is that he doesn't have Juju. If he had Juju, then he can do whatever he likes and he'll win the championship. Hamilton, Verstappen, Schumacher, Rossi have/had Juju. Bottas doesn't.

He has to avoid making errors like he did last night and just take what he can get. It doesn't matter if he couldn't pass Stroll, or if Vettel got him then everyone think he's a dickhead. Being conservative (and Juju) in the best cars wins championship.

Nitrodaze

29th July 2019, 09:17

journeyman racer

30th July 2019, 13:46

I have to acknowledge that after being annoyed at Nitrodaze's expressions over Hamilton's last lap at Silverstone, I have brought in a word that is comparable.

What is Juju?
juju
[ˈdʒuːdʒuː]

noun

-supernatural power attributed to a charm...

Think about it? Both effectively made the same error at the first turn. Hamilton spins off an resumes as if nothing happened, and Bottas destroys the front of his car.

How does that happen???

It's Juju. Bottas doesn't have it. It's why nobody likes him, or cares if he suffers some misfortune.

The Black Knight

4th August 2019, 16:41

journeyman racer

4th August 2019, 17:15

airshifter

4th August 2019, 17:21

How about you just stfu?

You're an angry little dude aren't you? :laugh:

If someone having an opinion upsets you that much, there is an ignore function. And guess what happens on the internet... people have opinions.

I think Bottas has overall upped his game, but IMO the young guns and people around him have done the same. It doesn't leave him on solid ground at the moment.

journeyman racer

4th August 2019, 17:29

You could see that coming a mile off. The only reason why TBK hasn't already shit on Bottas earlier this year is because Bottas had lifted. Which a chump like him begrudgingly acknowledges.

As far as the young guns and other lifting? Well, I'd say that would have to be confirmed. There's a huge difference between doing well in the midfield cars, and doing well in the best car with Hamilton as your tram mate. Unless they pick Ricciardo, it's not necessarily an easy decision for MB. It's not even an easy decision even with Ricciardo available.

truefan72

4th August 2019, 17:33

So much for Bottas v2.0. Surely he has to be dropped now. 62 points behind Lewis after 12 races. 2 mistakes on the first lap, nearly taking his teammate out of it in turn 3. Can’t see why Mercedes would keep him except to play second fiddle to Hamilton.

The problem is, all things considered, bottas is still 2nd in the championship. Mercedes is still leading the WCC by a huge margin and his pace, while sporadic, is still good enough for the race win here and there. Also the mercedes isn't as dominant as some would have you believe which is testament to Hamilton's skill more so than Bottas' shortcomings. I think that's where the tough decision lies. What would be the effect of putting Ocon in instead of Bottas? would the standings look any different? Would Ocon have 188 points before the summer break?
I could clearly see the logic with adding leclerc in the case of ferrari. Vettel seemed to be in decline and an extremely fast and talented young driver was the boost the team needed.
But Mercedes is coming off the back of 5 straight WCC and WDC years with their lead driver in the form of his life and a strong chance of winning this year's WDC and in position to challenge for next year's WDC and match Schumi as well. The team will be a contender until 2021. The stability is there, and both sides of the garage are GP winners. I think the fact that wolff managed ocon is more of a factor than an honest need for a driver switch. I am one of the hardest bottas critics out there, but i'm also very aware that he has done a solid job, all things considered, and especially has a teammate to already one of the all time greats currently in the form of his life. without leclerc side swiping him, it would probably have been a 1-3 finish for them today.
I'm not sure what Wolff and mercedes are going to do, but it would make more sense trying to get ocon into the williams seat for 2020 ( i think kubica is out) and then groom both he and russell to take over eventually at mercedes.

The Black Knight

4th August 2019, 19:50

How about you just stfu?

A lame arse like you just couldn't wait to lay the boots into him, you *****.

Nearly taking out his team mate? You just exaggerate any danger towards Hamilton because you're a loser that lives vicariously through Hamilton.

Why would MB keep him? Well, if they do replace him, you'll see why they would because aside from Ricciardo, there's no one who could you could say could really do better. That's why.

Another reason is because he outqualifies Hamilton regularly. Again, aside from Ricciardo, there's no one likely to be available to do that.

******* pathetic lame arse fans Hamilton has.

You’re such a sensitive little soul.

The problem is, all things considered, bottas is still 2nd in the championship. Mercedes is still leading the WCC by a huge margin and his pace, while sporadic, is still good enough for the race win here and there. Also the mercedes isn't as dominant as some would have you believe which is testament to Hamilton's skill more so than Bottas' shortcomings. I think that's where the tough decision lies. What would be the effect of putting Ocon in instead of Bottas? would the standings look any different? Would Ocon have 188 points before the summer break?
I could clearly see the logic with adding leclerc in the case of ferrari. Vettel seemed to be in decline and an extremely fast and talented young driver was the boost the team needed.
But Mercedes is coming off the back of 5 straight WCC and WDC years with their lead driver in the form of his life and a strong chance of winning this year's WDC and in position to challenge for next year's WDC and match Schumi as well. The team will be a contender until 2021. The stability is there, and both sides of the garage are GP winners. I think the fact that wolff managed ocon is more of a factor than an honest need for a driver switch. I am one of the hardest bottas critics out there, but i'm also very aware that he has done a solid job, all things considered, and especially has a teammate to already one of the all time greats currently in the form of his life. without leclerc side swiping him, it would probably have been a 1-3 finish for them today.
I'm not sure what Wolff and mercedes are going to do, but it would make more sense trying to get ocon into the williams seat for 2020 ( i think kubica is out) and then groom both he and russell to take over eventually at mercedes.

I totally see the logic in what you’re saying. Ultimately I think they want someone that will run Hamilton closer. I think they believe they have a talent in Ocon that they want to keep. Personally, I think Ocon is a complete and utter idiot and wouldn’t put him in my race car in a million years, especially after Brazil last year. That is likely to be the most deciding factor rather than any great performance by Bottas. Bottas is a known entity now. Generally starts the seasons well and fades as the year goes on. He couldn’t even win a race in 2018. Two race wins in 1.5 seasons in a Mercedes is pretty abysmal at the end of the day.
The telling signs for me were after the race Totto stating that Bottas blew it and he said Bottas had a shite race in Germany as well. Totto never makes statements like that.

truefan72

5th August 2019, 01:31

You’re such a sensitive little soul.
I know right?
completely uncalled for.
sad.

truefan72

5th August 2019, 01:43

I totally see the logic in what you’re saying. Ultimately I think they want someone that will run Hamilton closer. I think they believe they have a talent in Ocon that they want to keep. Personally, I think Ocon is a complete and utter idiot and wouldn’t put him in my race car in a million years, especially after Brazil last year. That is likely to be the most deciding factor rather than any great performance by Bottas. Bottas is a known entity now. Generally starts the seasons well and fades as the year goes on. He couldn’t even win a race in 2018. Two race wins in 1.5 seasons in a Mercedes is pretty abysmal at the end of the day.
The telling signs for me were after the race Totto stating that Bottas blew it and he said Bottas had a shite race in Germany as well. Totto never makes statements like that.

I also don't rate ocon that highly too. He will be servicable but Nothing i saw at force india leads me to believe that his is anything special
I keep going back to the fact that Ocon is managed by Wolff.
rumor also has it that he will be leaving the team or his post at the end of 2020, os he might want to get "his guy" in there before that happens.
I'm not sure what the rushed decision making process is all about. telling bottas he is out with 9 races to go, demoralizes the team in general and puts bottas in an awkward position.
I also find it really classless for Wolff to be so public with his statements about bottas to the media and anyone who would listen. Why would bottas give 2 cents about any team stipulations from now on.
He will do his own thing and if the team don't like it, then they could release him. TBH i think his time is up at mercedes anyway, but it would seem odd to replace the guy who is in all likelihood gonna finish in the top 3 of the championship and help secure another WCC for mercedes.
Finally, the real jewel here is Russell, but Wolff has already gone out of his way to say that Russell is too young for the mercedes seat. Ridiculous

Nitrodaze

5th August 2019, 17:38

I also don't rate ocon that highly too. He will be servicable but Nothing i saw at force india leads me to believe that his is anything special
I keep going back to the fact that Ocon is managed by Wolff.
rumor also has it that he will be leaving the team or his post at the end of 2020, os he might want to get "his guy" in there before that happens.
I'm not sure what the rushed decision making process is all about. telling bottas he is out with 9 races to go, demoralizes the team in general and puts bottas in an awkward position.
I also find it really classless for Wolff to be so public with his statements about bottas to the media and anyone who would listen. Why would bottas give 2 cents about any team stipulations from now on.
He will do his own thing and if the team don't like it, then they could release him. TBH i think his time is up at mercedes anyway, but it would seem odd to replace the guy who is in all likelihood gonna finish in the top 3 of the championship and help secure another WCC for mercedes.
Finally, the real jewel here is Russell, but Wolff has already gone out of his way to say that Russell is too young for the mercedes seat. Ridiculous

I share your view on this matter. I seriously doubt Ocon is the right man for the seat. He is quick, but l doubt much quicker than Bottas on his day. Then, there is the reckless crashing of Ocon with teammates and more memorable with Verstapenn in Brasil last season. I doubt in a head to Head with Russel that he can beat the 2018 F2 world champion. Hence, l admit that it is a bit suspect that the pool from which Mercedes is making its selection for Bottas' seat is so small. They are hiding something, l think, they are probably talking to Verstapenn.

Big Ben

5th August 2019, 18:14

...and more memorable with Verstapenn in Brasil last season.

Totally Verstappen's fault but never mind... it fits the narrative more like that.

Both Ocon and Verstappen are worse for Mercedes than Bottas. The Finn is exactly what they need right now. The other two would cause way more problems. But Verstappen is more likely to be seen as a replacement for Hamilton. I wonder how that transition would work.

Big Ben

5th August 2019, 18:16

Also the mercedes isn't as dominant as some would have you believe which is testament to Hamilton's skill

I rolled my eyes so hard I pulled a muscle

truefan72

5th August 2019, 18:43

I rolled my eyes so hard I pulled a muscle
ok, ok, perhaps dominant is the wrong word.
it is not as easy to drive or handle than some might think.
In perfect conditions it is awfully impressive and dominant, but it's operating window is smaller and the car is temperamental too.
It is very finely balanced. Hamilton talent has pretty much mastered the car (despite being less involved than bottas in the winter in its development) and Bottas, despite his flaws has also come to grips with it.
To me it is also telling that ocon did not participate in any of the in season testing. Russell in Bahrain and Nikita Mazepin in spain. Both doing stellar work with the car.
That's why it is still baffling as to why Ocon, who at this point is pretty much relegated to being their sim driver, is even in the running to make the leap.
go figure

Nitrodaze

6th August 2019, 06:47

Mercedes may also be talking to Ricciado for all we know.

zako85

6th August 2019, 09:27

So after taking a loooong fifteen minute read to skim through this thread, I think we all agree that Bottas is a great racer and that he should continue racing in F1. We all would love to see him racing at Williams F1 next season. After employing a long string of mediocre drivers, I am sure that Williams F1 will be more than happy to take him back. Bottas, on the other hand, will enjoy having a unique opportunity to lift this formerly great team up from the ashes where it has been for more than a decade. And so, this way everybody wins! Peace. :)

The Black Knight

12th August 2019, 06:43

Mercedes may also be talking to Ricciado for all we know.

Unlikely I’d say as they were talking last amd Ricciardo wanted too much money. Ricciardo will stay at Renault until then end of next season as per his contract. 2021 is really when the musical chairs will start as almost every driver is out of contract then.

Nitrodaze

12th August 2019, 08:17

Unlikely I’d say as they were talking last amd Ricciardo wanted too much money. Ricciardo will stay at Renault until then end of next season as per his contract. 2021 is really when the musical chairs will start as almost every driver is out of contract then.

After the poor Renault car that has turned out to be an embarrassment for Ricciado, l am sure he would bend over backwards to get out of that Renault.

Nitrodaze

17th August 2019, 14:53

Apparently Woolf say he does not want to burn Russell. It would appear he thinks the calibre of drivers moving up from F2 are not good enough for the sharp end of the grid. I recall Hamilton stepped up from F2 to immediately challenge for the championship in his first year at Mclaren and won it in his second year of entering F1.

I understand there is much at stake to risk putting a rookie into a car at the sharp end of the grid. Gasly is a proof in point. But Nando is doing a great job at Mclaren, l think Russell would do an equivalent or even better job than Ocon or Bottas. How well he does, comes down also to how well the team manages his transition into the team. I don't buy the burn out excuse. He has either shown enough to show he is capable or not.

At least one complete season in F1 should be enough to prepare a driver for the seat in the senior team. If they have not shown the readiness to step up, then it is understandable that they are given time to mature. They should be given a limit of two seasons to show readiness or dropped if they are below expectation.

I think it is demoralizing to not have a clear plan of progressing for junior drivers. It killed Wehrlein's F1 career and has placed Ocon in a difficult situation. Placing a F2 champion in a car at the rear of the grid is worst way to show appreciation of the talent. Imagine if Hamilton had started in back marker car. We probably may not have seen his true capability, if he had ended up like Wehrlien and left the formula.

journeyman racer

22nd August 2019, 13:28

Nobody is entitled to a driver. There's only so many seats to fill, and there's many factors involved when selecting a driver. It's the driver's responsibility to manage their career given the circumstances.

As far as Bottas goes, an accumulation of little things have added up to prove costly. Even when I compare the points to previous seasons. A couple of races ago, he had enough points to be 1st/2nd in previous seasons. But now would be 3rd in most of the 14-18 season to this points, and not be in the lead in any of the.

When it's clear he's looked deep down to improve his performance. But now has to look even deeper and think about race situations even more.

The Black Knight

27th August 2019, 12:40

So latest I’ve heard is that Bottas will be retained by Mercedes for 2020. Ocon will replace Hulkenberg at Renault and Hulkenberg will got to Haas instead of Grosjean.

Nitrodaze

27th August 2019, 15:14

So latest I’ve heard is that Bottas will be retained by Mercedes for 2020. Ocon will replace Hulkenberg at Renault and Hulkenberg will got to Haas instead of Grosjean.

I think Bottas would need to retain 2nd in the drivers championship to hang on to his drive. If Verstapenn pips him to 2nd place, chances are the pressure to jettison Bottas would mount. If this were to transpire, l wonder who would take his seat. In such a circumstances, Ocon may not go to Renault. If he did, l wonder if Mercedes would be forced to promote Russell.

The Black Knight

29th August 2019, 12:01

Breaking News: Bottas is retained by Mercedes-AMG for 2020.

Shock - not!

Nitrodaze

29th August 2019, 23:10

Breaking News: Bottas is retained by Mercedes-AMG for 2020.

Shock - not!

Wow, that is good for Bottas and l am sure Hamilton. His first half of the season was a enough to convince the team to keep him it seems. I hope he gets the boost to hang on to his 2nd place in the drivers championship or even challenge for the title.

Nitrodaze

3rd September 2019, 14:35

Spa was a good race for Bottas. He is 22 points clear of Verstapenn. He just need to keep his head down and put out great performance such this one. Go Valterie!

The Black Knight

3rd September 2019, 16:50

Spa was a good race for Bottas. He is 22 points clear of Verstapenn. He just need to keep his head down and put out great performance such this one. Go Valterie!
Was it? He was 13 seconds off the lead, never in contention for the win and when they both went flat out before the pitstops, Hamilton pulled 1.5 seconds on him in one lap alone. He pulled 4 seconds on him in 3 laps and he was running in clear air pretty much all the time. I am not sure I’d consider that a great performance honestly. Better than his performance in France though.

Nitrodaze

3rd September 2019, 17:19

Was it? He was 13 seconds off the lead, never in contention for the win and when they both went flat out before the pitstops, Hamilton pulled 1.5 seconds on him in one lap alone. He pulled 4 seconds on him in 3 laps and he was running in clear air pretty much all the time. I am not sure I’d consider that a great performance honestly. Better than his performance in France though.

Bottas was being clever really. He knew the win was not possible so he decided to take care of his engine. In the press pit, he said he decided to conserve engine life since it was clear that Leclerc was too fast to beat.

journeyman racer

14th September 2019, 13:30

That's interesting insight from Nitrodaze. Obviously it pays to pay attention to the post race media?

The guy has to figure out how to get a win? When Hamilton beats him, he wins. When Bottas gets Hamilton, he's not winning.

journeyman racer

15th September 2019, 08:13

Now that he has a new contract for next year. I think Bottas not only has to race to get as many wins as he can (because it makes you feel good) and secure 2nd in the championship. But I think it's best for Bottas to start racing with next year's championship in mind.

Get some wins and results ahead of Hamilton where it'll carry over onto next year.

The Black Knight

3rd October 2019, 21:31

Nitrodaze

4th October 2019, 09:37

Qualifying head to head 11-5 to Hamilton

Wins 9-2.

2 wins in 1.75 season in a Mercedes is not a great record.

Still mathematically in with a chance of the championship should Hamilton suffer 2-3 DNF’s but it’s a stretch and looks a defeated man now. Credit where it’s due, he has been a vast improvement on last years Bottas v1.0.

Maybe Bottas v3.x will do better.

After Hamilton established a clear lead to attain number 1 status, Bottas has tried to do enough to play the tyeam game or at least finish 2nd where that was possible. So far, l think he has done all that the team want from him. He is clearly keeping his powder dry by not stressing is engine with the hope that if Hamilton has an engine problem, he would have a good enough engine to capitalize. Besides, he has not been enjoying the love of the team. Take Sochi for instance, he asked if he could go for fastest lap, the pitwall said no, protect your engine. Then Hamilton went and put out the fastest lap scoring the extra point that could have also been available to Bottas if he was given the chance.

These statistics don't mean anything in the face of the realities of internal team politics.

airshifter

4th October 2019, 15:13

Nitrodaze

27th August 2021, 19:48

With the season heading well into silly season, the rumours are rift and as the current occupant of the most coveted seat in F1, everyone is talking about Bottas. So l want to ask this forum for a vote on whether Bottas is out or still in the Mercedes next season. Just say OUT or IN and a short reason why you think so.

Nitrodaze

27th August 2021, 19:48

OUT - He has not earned the seat this season.

pantealex

27th August 2021, 21:20

IN - any other is not quicker than Lewis either

Firstgear

28th August 2021, 17:21

OUT - even if Bottas performs adequately, Merc can't take the chance of losing George if he's not promoted soon.

airshifter

28th August 2021, 18:18

IN - any other is not quicker than Lewis either

For now, at least until some changes happen, there are probably no drivers that will challenge either Lewis or Max in the respective teams. But four years in Bottas still isn't really a great #2 unless the car is completely dominant. And just about anyone on the grid can do that. I think there are a lot of really good options myself.

And no disrespect intended towards yourself or Bottas. He's a really good driver IMHO, but not consistently fast enough to earn an upper crust ride.

OUT - even if Bottas performs adequately, Merc can't take the chance of losing George if he's not promoted soon.

I have to think that has an impact on the decision. If Merc waits too long it could really bite them later, especially with all the car changes coming next year.

F1nKS

28th August 2021, 20:00

Toto said today the decision has been made. Has to be:

OUT

Russell in a inferior car trounced Bottas.

The Black Knight

28th August 2021, 20:15

Toto said today the decision has been made. Has to be:

OUT

Russell in a inferior car trounced Bottas.

2.3 seconds to Hamilton in the same car. It's actually disgraceful. Mercedes have to look to the future and with the rule changes next year it's the perfect time to bring him in. There's more to be gained by bringing in Russell than there is by retaining Bottas. As I said before, I heard through the grapevine that they signed Russell about 2 months ago anyway. We'll find out soon if that is true I guess.

gm99

28th August 2021, 21:41

IN.
If Russell was still available, Red Bull would have waited before re-signing Perez.

The Black Knight

28th August 2021, 21:44

IN.
If Russell was still available, Red Bull would have waited before re-signing Perez.

Yup! I thought the same as soon as Perez's contract was signed.

Nitrodaze

29th August 2021, 11:11

IN.
If Russell was still available, Red Bull would have waited before re-signing Perez.

I think you mean OUT for Bottas

gm99

29th August 2021, 11:29

I think you mean OUT for Bottas

No, I meant IN for Russell :D

Nitrodaze

29th August 2021, 19:23

No, I meant IN for Russell :D

The thread question was in connection to Bottas only; OUT or IN

gm99

29th August 2021, 19:41

The thread question was in connection to Bottas only; OUT or IN

Yes, I got it wrong - I did mean OUT for Bottas.
I won't attempt a funny riposte this time.

Sulland

29th August 2021, 21:58

Nitrodaze

30th August 2021, 17:41

Would be cool if Russel could match, amd sometimes beat Hamilton. Bottas has become too much of a loyal pissboy in the team.
But it takes a good deal of psyke and self esteem to constantly challenge a driver like Hamilton.

Many drivers in many teams has over the years, gone down, amd never risen back up again.

I think we would have the Alonso vs Hamilton saga of Mclaren 2007. Hamilton knows that Russell is very hungry and desperate to establish himself. So l fully expect Russell to race Hamilton hard. With the pace we have seen, it would not be surprising to see him beat Hamilton on occasions. Would he be able to dominate and win titles with Hamilton in the other car is another question.

Russell going into the seat next to Hamilton could also be a career-damaging experience. It all comes down to Russell's attitude and mentality when he turns the Mercedes wheel as a full-time Mercedes driver. If his attitude is confrontational, then we would have the very conditions of Alonso-Hamilton 2007 and Toto would have a real problem on his hands.

I think Russell in the Mercedes would be mighty and Verstappen knows that. As do Leclerc, Norris and Sainz.

Zico

30th August 2021, 19:14

I think we would have the Alonso vs Hamilton saga of Mclaren 2007. Hamilton knows that Russell is very hungry and desperate to establish himself. So l fully expect Russell to race Hamilton hard. With the pace we have seen, it would not be surprising to see him beat Hamilton on occasions. Would he be able to dominate and win titles with Hamilton in the other car is another question.

Russell going into the seat next to Hamilton could also be a career-damaging experience. It all comes down to Russell's attitude and mentality when he turns the Mercedes wheel as a full-time Mercedes driver. If his attitude is confrontational, then we would have the very conditions of Alonso-Hamilton 2007 and Toto would have a real problem on his hands.

I think Russell in the Mercedes would be mighty and Verstappen knows that. As do Leclerc, Norris and Sainz.

I think Russell will be told in no uncertain terms that he is Hamiltons biatch, if he doesn't play ball and goes against team orders he will quickly find himself replaced.
That won't stop him trying to prove a point in qualy though... and Lewis will NOT like being upstaged if, or should I say when, that happens. Thats not a dig at Lewis btw.. nobody on the grid would enjoy that, I wouldn't either.

F1nKS

30th August 2021, 21:41

I think we would have the Alonso vs Hamilton saga of Mclaren 2007. Hamilton knows that Russell is very hungry and desperate to establish himself. So l fully expect Russell to race Hamilton hard. With the pace we have seen, it would not be surprising to see him beat Hamilton on occasions. Would he be able to dominate and win titles with Hamilton in the other car is another question.

Russell going into the seat next to Hamilton could also be a career-damaging experience. It all comes down to Russell's attitude and mentality when he turns the Mercedes wheel as a full-time Mercedes driver. If his attitude is confrontational, then we would have the very conditions of Alonso-Hamilton 2007 and Toto would have a real problem on his hands.

I think Russell in the Mercedes would be mighty and Verstappen knows that. As do Leclerc, Norris and Sainz.

Russell seems like a team player. I think he will obey team orders and will defer to Hamilton as long he stays at Mercedes. It really a perfect arrangement for Mercedes. Unless they somehow miss on the 2022 car, they will be in position to dominate for years to come. Russell will then be in position to make it "his" team when Hamilton does decide to retire.

Don't think I would say that if they keep Bottas instead.

Firstgear

30th August 2021, 22:43

Nitrodaze

31st August 2021, 12:02

I've got to disagree F1nKS. I think he will behave much more like Leclerc did in his first year at Ferrari. He said all the right things..willing to learn and be mentored and play a support roll. That only lasted as long as he was slower. As soon as he was on pace, he made the team his and was not willing to let the senior driver hang around and retire from the team at the time of his choosing. I think all (or most) F1 drivers would do the same. But the evidence for George is there to be seen from his one race in the Mercedes last year. He didn't patiently stay behind Bottas...he went for it the second he smelled blood.

That is the winner instincts and we expect no less. F1 is a dog eat dog environment. His career is on the line, so we would expect him to do just that. The question though is can he tame Hamilton as Leclerc tamed Vettel. For Hamilton, this is role reversal from his Alonso - Mclaren experience. Hamilton is not showing signs of slowing yet. But we are seeing fatigue from him after races. His age is showing l suppose.

The changing of the guard ceremony shall occur sooner or later, but it is inevitable.

The Black Knight

31st August 2021, 21:15

So the final deal of Bottas to Alfa Romeo has apparently now been signed so I expect Russell to Mercedes to be announced in the coming days.

truefan72

31st August 2021, 21:16

I've got to disagree F1nKS. I think he will behave much more like Leclerc did in his first year at Ferrari. He said all the right things..willing to learn and be mentored and play a support roll. That only lasted as long as he was slower. As soon as he was on pace, he made the team his and was not willing to let the senior driver hang around and retire from the team at the time of his choosing. I think all (or most) F1 drivers would do the same. But the evidence for George is there to be seen from his one race in the Mercedes last year. He didn't patiently stay behind Bottas...he went for it the second he smelled blood.

Yup. At this point after being patient for like 2 years, Russell is out to win the Championship and races himself until it becomes mathematically impossible for either one. Hamilton doesn't need a #2 and Bottas has been given equal status (for the most part) during his 5 year stint with mercedes. At the very least equal machinery. For Russell and Mercedes, the expectation is there to compete and win and having 2 drivers at the highest level pushes the team forward IMO.

truefan72

31st August 2021, 21:18

So the final deal of Bottas to Alfa Romeo has apparently now been signed so I expect Russell to Mercedes to be announced in the coming days.

wow has it?
I was sure he was going to williams.
Perhaps williams didn't want him.

So I believe that Illot and DeVries are going to be at Williams in 2022
I see Zhou becoming the Renault 3rd driver and then possibly taking over for Alonso in 2023

very interesting!

truefan72

31st August 2021, 21:23

That is the winner instincts and we expect no less. F1 is a dog eat dog environment. His career is on the line, so we would expect him to do just that. The question though is can he tame Hamilton as Leclerc tamed Vettel. For Hamilton, this is role reversal from his Alonso - Mclaren experience. Hamilton is not showing signs of slowing yet. But we are seeing fatigue from him after races. His age is showing l suppose.

The changing of the guard ceremony shall occur sooner or later, but it is inevitable.

That is why i think 2022 is Hamilton's final year.
If he wins his 8th WDC this year then 2022 is just a farewell tour and a chance at the new machinery.
If he misses it this year, he is hoping that 2002 might be another shot at it. albeit with a better competitor in other seat and a possible 5 way championship fight.
Anything is possible with the new cars.

N. Jones

31st August 2021, 23:02

Lets talk Bottas

Let's not and say we did. :D

F1nKS

1st September 2021, 04:44

I've got to disagree F1nKS. I think he will behave much more like Leclerc did in his first year at Ferrari. He said all the right things..willing to learn and be mentored and play a support roll. That only lasted as long as he was slower. As soon as he was on pace, he made the team his and was not willing to let the senior driver hang around and retire from the team at the time of his choosing. I think all (or most) F1 drivers would do the same.

You could be right, if Hamilton does start to slow down, it would be hard to expect George to slow down with him.

But the evidence for George is there to be seen from his one race in the Mercedes last year. He didn't patiently stay behind Bottas...he went for it the second he smelled blood.

I don't agree with you here. There should have been no expectation that George was going to bow down to Bottas - everybody knew this was his test to show where he stacked up against Bottas. I personally thought he was overrated up to this race.

The Black Knight

1st September 2021, 08:10

wow has it?
I was sure he was going to williams.
Perhaps williams didn't want him.

So I believe that Illot and DeVries are going to be at Williams in 2022
I see Zhou becoming the Renault 3rd driver and then possibly taking over for Alonso in 2023

very interesting!

I've heard De Vries is going to Alfa and Gio is being dropped with Kimi retiring. I'm not as convinced on this as the other rumour though. This is just what I've heard disclaimer so maybe none of it will come to pass. All will be confirmed over coming days I suspect.

airshifter

1st September 2021, 15:27

truefan72

1st September 2021, 16:33

Well at least we had something to fill the gap after Spa.

Merc would be fools to not have Russell, and personally I think if he ends up in a Merc they will allow him to race Lewis. With the new cars they will both be having to get the feel, and holding anyone back would be foolish. I do expect the field to tighten up, after all if the cars are slower more drivers should be able to find the limits of them on a more regular basis. If Lewis gets the WDC this year it might be to George's benefit, as Lewis might not race quite so hard for another title once he already has the more WDC's. Then again..... he might race even harder wanting to get that first title in the new hardware.

Until it all happens we can't be sure. George should fill that void better than Bottas IMHO, as he is still very hungry and has a better chance at challenging for wins. And we still don't know where Merc will fall with the new cars, though it seems they have put a lot of budget towards their effort.

I think Toto all but acknowledged that Russel is coming to Mercedes. From every perspective it makes sense for 2022.
I think the only hold up is where Bottas is going to land and Toto probably (although it really is out of his control IMO) wants to ensure that before making the announcement. He said as much.
But it is just wasting everybody's time and I'm sure Bottas and his team are capable of finding their own deal.
We shall see.

airshifter

1st September 2021, 16:40

I agree.... but then again I haven't heard any of it out of Toto's mouth.

I've seen so many articles claiming differing things that it might just be a media storm about nothing. Somebody in that mix is probably rights.... but maybe not as well.

At this point it would almost be comical to find out nobody is moving. :laugh:

The Black Knight

1st September 2021, 22:14

I've heard De Vries is going to Alfa and Gio is being dropped with Kimi retiring. I'm not as convinced on this as the other rumour though. This is just what I've heard disclaimer so maybe none of it will come to pass. All will be confirmed over coming days I suspect.

Kimi retiring from F1. This article in ESPN reporting pretty much everything I mentioned above:

https://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/32126971/kimi-raikkonen-announces-retirement-f1-end-2021

Nitrodaze

1st September 2021, 23:30

Kimi retiring from F1. This article in ESPN reporting pretty much everything I mentioned above:

https://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/32126971/kimi-raikkonen-announces-retirement-f1-end-2021

The Iceman is bowing out at the end of the season. Which means, there is a good chance Bottas is heading to Alfa Romeo. my instincts say he would be heading back to Williams to lead the team. The recent showings might suggest Williams might have a good car in the new era.

The Black Knight

6th September 2021, 12:42

It's official - Bottas to Alfa:

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.breaking-alfa-romeo-announce-valtteri-bottas-to-join-the-team-in-2022-on.6Ezs9zhh2jV1ceMcHs3e4S.html?fbclid=IwAR3xZ_k8xl Sd7BEKZfPa-fYWCMqKQ1zV9oKmb3wdwNVXgTw7utfyswPY8H0

joe1888cfc

6th September 2021, 14:42

F1nKS

6th September 2021, 14:50

Don't know what any team sees in him bar unquestionable loyalty.

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To be fair, he is mostly doing what Mercedes need from #2 driver. He actually can qualify pretty well. His only downside is when he doesn't qualify well, then he struggles to fight through.

It must be nice for Mercedes to have a future #1 driver ready to replace their #2.

Nitrodaze

7th September 2021, 18:32

Don't know what any team sees in him bar unquestionable loyalty.

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Bottas is as quick as Hamilton on his day. Driving in the shadow of a larger than life multiple world champion is daunting, to say the least. He never quite recovered from the reality of how good Hamilton was. That took the fire from his performance. I think as lead driver at Alfa Romeo, he would show his real talent. Assuming Alfa make a good 2022 car.

truefan72

7th September 2021, 21:09

Funny how Toto Wolff could possibly block Albon from joining Williams because of the Mercedes engines, but was instrumental in getting Bottas to Alfa Romero with Ferrari engines. SMH

F1nKS

7th September 2021, 22:15

Funny how Toto Wolff could possibly block Albon from joining Williams because of the Mercedes engines, but was instrumental in getting Bottas to Alfa Romero with Ferrari engines. SMH

Toto argument that he is afraid Albon would pass data to RB really doesn't hold up when you consider that Red Bull has poached the Mercedes engine engineering team.

Nitrodaze

8th September 2021, 08:09

Funny how Toto Wolff could possibly block Albon from joining Williams because of the Mercedes engines, but was instrumental in getting Bottas to Alfa Romero with Ferrari engines. SMH

I think it is all about the sithing rivalry between the two team bosses. Horner made it a thing and Woolf reacted. When could have easily sort this out over a friendly drink or lunch. I did not think Albon was going to get that seat because Williams is the equivalent of Redbull's Alpha Tauri for their junior driver programme. When you look at it from this perspective, Redbull is stretching their driver programme to Williams at Mercedes expense. It was not going to happen.

Mercedes need to ensure they have a seat for De Vries. Besides, that seat would leak info to Redbull on future technical development on the Mercedes Engine which is also a problem. That was the same reason why Ocon had to seat out a year.

Average Sim Racer

11th September 2021, 23:50

Overall I feel Bottas made a couple of errors in the wet this year and was publicly defensive. If it is true he was offered a one year deal and refused it then I think it was the wrong move.

That said, in general, he has been treated poorly as a number two driver by Mercedes. I feel other drivers may have accepted this role more back in the day.

Nitrodaze

15th September 2021, 08:19

I think it is all about the sithing rivalry between the two team bosses. Horner made it a thing and Woolf reacted. When could have easily sort this out over a friendly drink or lunch. I did not think Albon was going to get that seat because Williams is the equivalent of Redbull's Alpha Tauri for their junior driver programme. When you look at it from this perspective, Redbull is stretching their driver programme to Williams at Mercedes expense. It was not going to happen.

Mercedes need to ensure they have a seat for De Vries. Besides, that seat would leak info to Redbull on future technical development on the Mercedes Engine which is also a problem. That was the same reason why Ocon had to seat out a year.

How wrong l was. Albon got the seat anyway and congratulations to him. I wonder if this means Mercedes are distancing themselves from Williams with the Williams family gone.