WRC cars 3-5 years from now

[Rallyper]

In this new thread/topic I think it´s time to discuss how the WRC cars should be in the future, regarding todays circumstances: very, very expensive, making less drivers having a seat.

But also will they be electrified in the coming years?

My very own thoughts is as follows; maybe we should take some steps back. maybe having top WRC-class be a cheaper (than today) R5 class? To get interest from a spectator point of view the only recipy is making them sound louder. That satisfies most of the average Joes.

What do you think, fellow rally fans? Just go on say your thoughts!

[Tarmop]

No, average Joe isn`t satisfied only from that...the idea is good, but...no.

[Essaj]

Competive view the R5 or R5+ would be perfect but as a spectator point of view high performance WRC cars are a must.

[stefanvv]

Current WRC cars are quite bastards, that means spectacular, though indeed more expensive. I think going to R5 as top category will be huge step backwards, may be some R5+ with bigger engines like 2.4l M-Sport had once with active diff could be a good replacement. But probably the future is in electrics, half or full way.

[Rallyper]

No, average Joe isn`t satisfied only from that...the idea is good, but...no.

I believe we have too high expectations from AJ, because average Joe doesn´t know a thing about rallycars. Just that they should sound and slide is enough. I strongly believe that satisfies him.

And drivers have even more to be perfect in the driving...

[Rallyper]

Or why not go back to RWD or FWD cars?

[Mirek]

No, please not that.

WRC cars must stay brutal and spectacular or nobody will care. It's a marketing tool after all and the manus need attention. Orherwise they will go elsewhere.

In 3-5 years the cars will be for sure somewhat hybridized. That won't make them any cheaper but it is a political must to show some sort of environmental thinking. For me the ideal thing would be use of electric turbos for existing combustion engines and nothing else. The fuel consumption would be reduced dramatically without ALS and the impact on spectacle would be very little.

And forget about larger engine capacity. Nobody needs to promote large engines but exactly the opposite.

[able1]

awd is best thing ever happend to wrc.

[pantealex]

If R5 with maximum price 250.000 is top class (or what ever class name and top price)
It will make no profit to manufacturers after maybe 1st year, because every team will use so much too expensive stuff to their cars.

Even now every new R5 makes less profit than older ones because building faster cars takes more money all the time

[Mirek]

Yes, making R5 the top category would most likely lead to making R5 more expensive then they are now.

Actually I am quite positively surprised that FIA managed to keep the R5 prices on the more or less same level for all the time.

[deephouse]

Yes, making R5 the top category would most likely lead to making R5 more expensive then they are now.

Actually I am quite positively surprised that FIA managed to keep the R5 prices on the more or less same level for all the time.

Are TCR cars more expensive now with top class championship running and also satellite teams with works support?

[skarderud]

An R5+ hybrid with more aerodynamic than the R5 and a wide body could do the job?

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[er88]

Id still rather watch the old S2000s than the new R5s. The noise of the s2000s made the IRC and from maybe 2009-2011, that was a superb championship that gripped so many people. Better than the WRC to follow and spectate.

The new generation WRC cars are incredible and wonderful to watch. Whatever the FIA decide on the next batch of regulations they can't dilute the sound and spectacle, so I really don't know what is the next step?

The only problem with the current generation is the lack of top line wrc cars on the stages. That's the only criticism

[doubled1978]

I'm not sure the WRC category cars need the active diffs, as a spectator they don't add anything, but they do add a huge chunk of cost for the teams running them.
As for hybrid, I know its the way the industry is going, but for rallying if it happens you will end up with lower revving, torque filled powertrains that won't sound as dramatic as they do now...which is what we went away from with the 2.0l cars.

[Tarmop]

You can also boost you sound with speakers, also becoming popular in road cars, even Teslas sound like fierce V8`s...saddly.

[Rallyper]

Nice discussion going on.

I started this thread in the light of higher and higher costs giving that there are less seats for next year, and who knows what teams can afford in the future. Add environmental pressure from authorities make us think out of the box in this thread.

Older days were better days isn´t always right. Not even looking at rallying.

However I don´t see motivations like "todays WRC is the best happened" and "people will stop interested in rallying if we scale down a couple of steps". No way that is.

Horse and wagon, no. Cars with MC engines. No. But something else from todays monsters, maybe necessary from many point of views in the future. Go on discuss!! :)

[Fast Eddie WRC]

To look and sound spectacular in action is crucial. The performance doesn't have to be like the 2017 cars to still be fast.

R5 cars are good but after seeing a WRC car they seem puny.

Future cars should be hybrid with electric power and a small petrol for noise. Plus going back to a bigger body would also help the cars to look more spectacular.

[Mirek]

An R5+ hybrid with more aerodynamic than the R5 and a wide body could do the job?

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That would make them completely new cars. The R5 powertrain is not able to integrate hybrid systems.

[Mirek]

Are TCR cars more expensive now with top class championship running and also satellite teams with works support?

I do not follow circuits at all. Sorry.

[Barreis]

R5 cars should be enough for the top category. FIA should control the price of the car. But this will never happen. Money turns the world around.

[Mirek]

Id still rather watch the old S2000s than the new R5s. The noise of the s2000s made the IRC and from maybe 2009-2011, that was a superb championship that gripped so many people. Better than the WRC to follow and spectate.

The new generation WRC cars are incredible and wonderful to watch. Whatever the FIA decide on the next batch of regulations they can't dilute the sound and spectacle, so I really don't know what is the next step?

The only problem with the current generation is the lack of top line wrc cars on the stages. That's the only criticism

S2000 were actually quite expensive cars. The rules were not so strict so that it was possible to sell for much higher prices than set in the rules. At the peak of their popularity the top S2000 cars cost around 100k Euro more than top R5 today. Add to that the inflation and the real difference is even bigger.

But I liked them very much as well...

[skarderud]

I also think that a WRCar for the future, with some kind of electric/hybrid need to be a bigger car, like focus.
The main argument has to be the need for more space and the security around the electric/hybrid system.


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[mknight]

Mirek while I agree that some sort of hybridization has to happen for multiple reason I am not quite sure electric turbos are the way to go, simply because there is nothing like that in normal cars afaik.

Just adding electric motor for torque and "anti-lag" between shifts and after lift-off while banning ALS but keeping normal turbo would work and is already used on most hypercars.

--------
The other issue is the cost, right now most seems related to the carbon-fiber aero cost (someone wrote the small off and watersplash dmg Tanak did in Australia cost 200k euro together). Prokop was saying similar things after running the 2017 Fiesta in the team.
How possible is it to introduce some idea of cost cap on parts like in R5? Prbly very hard to control cause you don't need to "sell" the cars for a given price though. Maybe limit what material can be used for them?

Limiting test days to some reasonable number and loopholes for exploiting also seems like a good idea (already getting done now). Maybe only allow pre-event tests together on one location (yes harder to organize etc. but it could be another thing to watch for fans as well).

Another possible area that struck me when reading recent interviews from Ogier and Mikkelsen before that and also what Ogier did before/after Finland....... dampers.
Mikkelsen said they at Hyundai have 200!!!! different dampers to pick from while at VW they had only 40!! (and these were only from one supplier, this year Ogier used different suplier for tarmac and gravel at times). The numbers look quite insane to me in terms of cost tbh, buying so many parts is one thing but the associated testing and setup work needed to pick which ones to use for which conditions is what really has to cost money. Limit number of allowed options?

[Mirek]

Mirek while I agree that some sort of hybridization has to happen for multiple reason I am not quite sure electric turbos are the way to go, simply because there is nothing like that in normal cars afaik

Why is that an issue? ALS isn't in stock cars either. Sequential gearboxes as well and the list can go on for quite some time.

Anyway large majority of people around the stages doesn't know how ALS or electric turbo works or what's the difference between WRC sequential gearbox and their DSG with paddles on the steering wheel...

[Rally Power]

I started this thread in the light of higher and higher costs giving that there are less seats for next year, and who knows what teams can afford in the future. Add environmental pressure from authorities make us think out of the box in this thread.

Maybe the problem is more in the way the promoter is trying to make the series grow, adding more events to an already busy calendar, rather than in current WRC cars.

2017 WRC cars rules are the main reason for WRC revamp, providing crews, teams and fans some of the most exciting seasons ever. WRC cars can be expensive and exclusive but that’s what one should expect to have on the pinnacle series of the sport. Besides, the jokers limitation is helping controlling their cost.

It’d be a nonsense to change WRC cars specs till the end of the planned 2nd cycle (2020-2022) and from 2023 forward we can only hope the FIA won’t try to make any regulation revolution, imposing high tech hybrids or electric cars (they must be smart and learn from WEC failed attempts and WRX current crisis); a mild hydrib system should be enough.

[Mk2 RS2000]

Whatever the regulations are the biggest change required is one that allows privateers to build and run same cars to the regulations as the factory teams in the manner of the old Group 1 to 4 days and the Group N and A days.
One should not have to purchase a factory built car to compete

[Mirek]

Whatever the regulations are the biggest change required is one that allows privateers to build and run same cars to the regulations as the factory teams in the manner of the old Group 1 to 4 days and the Group N and A days.
One should not have to purchase a factory built car to compete

This has been discussed to death. It's the manufacturers themselves who would never allow that to happen. Also the rules and the technical level are now so hugely complex compared to the time of group 1-4 that it's unreal to expect any privateer to homologate his own WRC car. Take into account that a homologation of a 1970' car usually had only few pages while now it's hundreds.

I personally cannot imagine any privateer being able to simulate everything from stress to aerodynamics, to make wind-tunnel tests, to build his own active differential, to run thousands of kilometers of tests using virtually hundreds of different suspension setups etc. etc. Without that he has zero chance to be ever competitive and even simplifying the rules to the bone would not change the massive advantage of manufacturers in their resources.

[mknight]

Why is that an issue? ALS isn't in stock cars either. Sequential gearboxes as well and the list can go on for quite some time.

Anyway large majority of people around the stages doesn't know how ALS or electric turbo works or what's the difference between WRC sequential gearbox and their DSG with paddles on the steering wheel...

Because of marketing.
I do believe that cars need to pretend they are similar to the cars that people buy in everyday life, after all that's often the main point of rally-related marketing (just look at latest Skoda ads), because it's one of the 2 main things that makes rally radically different from Formula 1 where the cars look totally alien. (the second one is that it's run on "normal" roads)

It's similar to the downsizing history. The current 1.6 engines have prbly similar power to the old 2.0 with smaller restrictor. Yet they did not change the rules back to 2.0 for 2017 to increase power, cause marketing-wise very few cars run with 2.0 engines today.

You actually write it yourself. Gearboxes that WRC uses with paddles on steering wheel look similar to standard automatic shifts with paddle-override that just about every car has today... hence the are good for marketing. ALS with red-glowing exhaust is not even close to funcionality to anything on normal cars, hence quite a lot of people including casual fans don't know what it is and it certainly isn't marketed.

Electric engine helping the petrol one is now in quite many cars down to the low-price range, so it would be quite easy to use in advertising. Toyota is clearly the easiest example, but many others have or will soon have similar systems.

[Tarmop]

Umh, formula car is not a car, in terms of that both r5 and wrc are quite authentic to their road versions. About flappy paddle gearshifts...that is mostly associated with formula cars and hypercars...a manu can give his car to be used by lets say...Mr. Clarkson and he instantly gets more for pretty much free. The idea of stock car racing has been tried and is being done right now, it is not suitable and meant to be the crown of the sports.

[Mirek]

Because of marketing.
I do believe that cars need to pretend they are similar to the cars that people buy in everyday life, after all that's often the main point of rally-related marketing (just look at latest Skoda ads), because it's one of the 2 main things that makes rally radically different from Formula 1 where the cars look totally alien. (the second one is that it's run on "normal" roads)

It's similar to the downsizing history. The current 1.6 engines have prbly similar power to the old 2.0 with smaller restrictor. Yet they did not change the rules back to 2.0 for 2017 to increase power, cause marketing-wise very few cars run with 2.0 engines today.

You actually write it yourself. Gearboxes that WRC uses with paddles on steering wheel look similar to standard automatic shifts with paddle-override that just about every car has today... hence the are good for marketing. ALS with red-glowing exhaust is not even close to funcionality to anything on normal cars, hence quite a lot of people including casual fans don't know what it is and it certainly isn't marketed.

Electric engine helping the petrol one is now in quite many cars down to the low-price range, so it would be quite easy to use in advertising. Toyota is clearly the easiest example, but many others have or will soon have similar systems.

The public can recognize that the car runs an electric turbo how? If they can't recognize sequential gearbox from DSG they sure as hell can't recognize electric turbo and normal turbo. Engine volume is clear. That's something what everyone is able to understand but I really don't understand why an electric turbo shall be an issue when You really need to know something about it to know that turbo =/= turbo. For me it's much less alien than current ALS with its very recognizable sound which has nothing to do with any stock car.

[Rallyper]

So far summary:

Some of you guys want it spectacular the way it is today, regardless of what may come out of it in the future; less factory teams, less seats etz. etz.

One other "group" wants rules making it easier for privateers to build a WRC cars; like in the Gr 1-4 and Gr A/N era.

My own reflection says whatever the cars they will use, they have to be spectacular. But nothing says they can´t be less expensive at the same time. Looking like monsters and banging like rifles is enough to make it a show on the stages for average Joe, and even in a market sense.

As long as we have teams (private and professional) affording to compete, not ruled out bcs of hundred of pages homologation and high costs the sport of rallying will survive.

I´m afraid that isn´t the way we are going at the moment. (my own thoughts)

[Tarmop]

For manufactures, it`s only about new technology, money and sales are also important, but not everything many cases, hence VAG pulling out (add dieselgate ofc), Peugeot seizing their activities pretty much everywhere and the list goes on and on. Then we have manus involved somewhere else, F1, Nascar and WEC for example...and manus living in the 90s, whose strategy is selling reliable and simple cars, not comfort, innovation, economy etc. Asian manufactures compared to EU ones are a perfect example. New techonologies and dying internal combustion engines (with no turbo or hybrid tech., that is) will inevitabely lead to cancellation of many series.

[sonnybobiche]

I have a pretty libertarian outlook on things, so I think the more freedom teams have, the better. An economist would point out that it is literally impossible to lower the cost of being competitive by imposing outside restrictions on development. Arbitrary restrictions don't lower costs; they raise them, everywhere and always. (Ask me to expound on this, I dare you!)

[Mirek]

Some of you guys want it spectacular the way it is today, regardless of what may come out of it in the future; less factory teams, less seats etz. etz.

You suppose certain causality as a fact but it's not. Expensive cars don't bring less teams just like cheap cars don't guarantee more teams. It's more complex.

The manufacturers must stay in. Without them the championship is as good as dead. So from my point of view the first and foremost question should be: Why are the manufacturers involved? And the answer is: Because it's worth it.

It's really that simple. The more the championship offers to them the more they can spend. If there is no public interest even a one car team with R1 is a waste of money. If millions of people follow the events it's money well spent even with hugely expensive cars, many events in the calendar and crazy palaces built in the service park. because it's worth it.

It's all about finding the balance. To be worth it.

Of course the privateers are fucked in this case but that's how it is. Let's be real. They are just a filler in the WRC anyway because realistically they have very little chance to achieve anything. Therefore in my opinion it's wrong to build championship existing thanks to the manufacturers according to the needs of privateers. Nothing good can come out of it because the manufacturers will always be able to spend how much is worth it - and that can always be much more than any privateer. The WRC2 is good place for privateers in my opinion. The cars are affordable but still fun to drive, the calendar reduced and the competition very good.

[Rallyper]

WRC2 is also going pro, isnt´t it? What will the outcome be?

Competition is a very big factor. Without competition and 55 rallies a year no one will care.

However the balance needs to be found. Agree to that.

[Mirek]

WRC2 is also going pro, isnt´t it? What will the outcome be?

No, exactly opposite. WRC2 moves to fully privateer series only.

WRC2 Pro is a new addition intended to remove the works teams from the privateer competition.

[Rallyper]

No, exactly opposite. WRC2 moves to fully privateer series only.

WRC2 Pro is a new addition intended to remove the works teams from the privateer competition.

So two WRC2 classes then? Ridiculous I would say...

[deephouse]

If there will be plenty of works teams in Pro class then OK, let it be. But if only Skoda show up (again), then we all know that this will only last one season like Trophy.

[Mirek]

If there will be plenty of works teams in Pro class then OK, let it be. But if only Skoda show up (again), then we all know that this will only last one season like Trophy.

There were five works WRC2 teams this year (Škoda 1, Škoda 2, M-Sport, Citroën and Hyundai). Aside of Škoda 2 I don't see why the others shall disappear.

[pantealex]

There were five works WRC2 teams this year (Škoda 1, Škoda 2, M-Sport, Citroën and Hyundai). Aside of Škoda 2 I don't see why the others shall disappear.

Money problems ?

They don´t have money for 3rd WRC, have they got budget for 2 car WRC2 PRO entry?

[AnttiL]

But being successful in WRC2 Pro could increase their R5 car sales, so it would be worth the investment? Also, assuming that WRC2 Pro will be 6-7 events, the running costs of 2 WRC2 Pro entries would be less than one full season WRC entry.

[Mirek]

Exactly. They have been all in WRC2 for two main reasons - to promote sales of R5 cars and to give their young drivers some experience from WRC events. Both is important and will stay important so I believe they will stay.

[AnttiL]

Regarding the thread topic, I don't have an answer. I like the new WRC cars but I also see the problem with the high costs and possibly some of the manufacturers dropping out or having only two cars each (then again, the 1997 season was still exciting with three teams having two cars each, with only one full season driver each). Going to R5 would not be bad on its own as the cars are nice and there's plenty of manufacturers, but it would be like banning Group B, having all the millions of development on the current WRC cars go to waste. And then we have electric/hybrid technologies, I know it's challenging in many ways but I also think that rallying should incorporate technologies that the manufacturers are selling to keep them interested and to have a platform for developing those technologies.

[Mirek]

I don't think You can really change number of WRC teams by technical rules. You just need to give it a fresh restart from time to time to bring new teams in. In my opinion the lifecycle of every top class has a general pattern:

1. New rules are introduced, everyone is on the same zero starting line, good number of teams is involved
2. Good competition, number of teams may for a short period of time even rise over the initial number
3. One or two teams start to be dominate, first teams start to fade away
4. One team is dominant, few others try to fight, others left

5. New rules are introduced to put everyone again on the same zero starting line...

As we could see with IRC it was absolutely same with S2000 cars just like with WRC cars. When Škoda started to dominate others started leaving. Therefore I don't believe switching to R5 is a cure for that.

On the other hand it would bring R5 class into the need of this sort of fresh restart from time to time which otherwise may not be needed if it stays to be only a support class. IMO it's better if R5 rules stay stable for a long period of time. That's good for all privateers and all regional or national championships. If R5 were the top class it would not be possible to keep the rules more or less unchanged for let's say a decade.

[dupanton]

We have 4 works team (you could argue about Ford, 3,5) which more than we ever had in past 10? years. So you can't blame the new technical rules for manufacturers leaving / not coming.

[Rally Power]

Regarding the thread topic, I don't have an answer. I like the new WRC cars but I also see the problem with the high costs and possibly some of the manufacturers dropping out or having only two cars each.

You shouldn’t forget that current rules were unanimously aproved by the manus, only a few years ago, and car costs raise was never seen as an issue. What seems to be now a problem is the calendar expansion policy. The promoter keeps pushing for more and more events, without really caring about teams runing costs and the FIA seems unable to find a proper balance.

In 2014 WRC survey, fans were asked about the kind of cars they wanted to see; surprisingly, fans desire to get more powerfull and more spectacular cars was actually granted by 2017 rules; it’d be interesting to see the WRC making a new survey, asking what kind of events and calendar fans are looking for.