British Grand Prix 2018

[airshifter]

This forum is really slacking. Qually over and no thread yet.

Apparently I just missed a great qualification session. Thanks to my cable package the qually was on a news network that isn't in my package.



Formula 1 British Grand Prix – Full qualifying classification

Q3

1. Lewis Hamilton GBR Mercedes AMG Petronas Motorsport 1m 25.892s

2. Sebastian Vettel GER Scuderia Ferrari 1m 25.936s

3. Kimi Raikkonen FIN Scuderia Ferrari 1m 25.990s

4. Valtteri Bottas FIN Mercedes AMG Petronas Motorsport 1m 26.217s

5. Max Verstappen NED Aston Martin Red Bull Racing 1m 26.602s

6. Daniel Ricciardo AUS Aston Martin Red Bull Racing 1m 27.099s

7. Kevin Magnussen DEN Haas F1 Team 1m 27.244s

8. Romain Grosjean FRA Haas F1 Team 1m 27.455s

9. Charles Leclerc MON Alfa Romeo Sauber F1 Team 1m 27.879s

10. Esteban Ocon FRA Sahara Force India F1 Team 1m 28.194s


Less than 1/10th of a second spreading the top 3 drivers, and both Ferrari's ahead of Bottas. Leclerc in 9th on the grid! Both Haas cars in Q3 again as well.

[Tazio]

Brilliant lap by the boss!
Haas, best of the rest!

[Starter]

This forum is really slacking. Qually over and no thread yet.

Apparently I just missed a great qualification session. Thanks to my cable package the qually was on a news network that isn't in my package.
Welcome to the club. ESPN, as usual,is managing to screw it over.

[Duncan]

Great job by Hamilton, and once again a fantastic performance from Leclerc.

What I want to know, though, is who is the numpty at Silverstone flying the Union Flag upside down?

[gm99]

And another disastrous performance by Williams in qualifying for their home Grand Prix.

[gm99]

Apparently hitting Hamilton in Britain is twice as bad as hitting Bottas in France.

[Nitrodaze]

Merc poor strategy not to change Bottas tyre may have cost them the win of this brilliant race.

[gm99]

If Bottas had changed tyres at the same time as Vettel, he still would have been behind the German on track and with the Ferrari appearing to be the faster car on race day, I doubt the Finn would have been able to overtake Seb.

[The Black Knight]

That useless Finn cost Hamilton the win today at turn 3. As I mentioned before, 5-10 seconds is not enough, especially when the other deivers race is ruined. You can’t be allowed to simply carry on with a mere 10 second penalty. A mandatory 10 second stop go would have been the only punishment reasonable.

Great finish to the race though. Thoroughly enjoyed it.

[gm99]

That useless Finn cost Hamilton the win today at turn 3.

Maybe, maybe not - Hamilton was in P3 at that time, having had a terrible start. I'm not sure he would have been able to pass Vettel on track today and with Mercedes' recent form in strategic matters, I doubt he would have passed the Ferrari in the pits.

[Nitrodaze]

That useless Finn cost Hamilton the win today at turn 3. As I mentioned before, 5-10 seconds is not enough, especially when the other deivers race is ruined. You can’t be allowed to simply carry on with a mere 10 second penalty. A mandatory 10 second stop go would have been the only punishment reasonable.

Great finish to the race though. Thoroughly enjoyed it.

This is racing buddy and Kimi was really pumped for this race. With cold tyres and brakes at the start, collision is highly likely if you end up in the pack. The race was in jeopardy for Lewis when he got a bad start.

[Nitrodaze]

If Bottas had changed tyres at the same time as Vettel, he still would have been behind the German on track and with the Ferrari appearing to be the faster car on race day, I doubt the Finn would have been able to overtake Seb.

Maybe! At least Mercedes would have had two cars on the podium if they had changed Bottas' tyre.

[The Black Knight]

Maybe, maybe not - Hamilton was in P3 at that time, having had a terrible start. I'm not sure he would have been able to pass Vettel on track today and with Mercedes' recent form in strategic matters, I doubt he would have passed the Ferrari in the pits.

Considering Lewis pace throughout the race I’d say there’s a good chance Lewis woild have been able to overtake Vettel. This is the second time in 3 races a Ferrari has ruined a Mercedes race. First lap incidents or not, if it continues then Ferrari should be given harsher penalties, even starting the next race from the back. You can’t keep ruining your opponents race and not have any consequences.

[gm99]

Considering Lewis pace throughout the race I’d say there’s a good chance Lewis woild have been able to overtake Vettel.

Vettel's fastest lap was 1:30,696, Lewis' more than half a second slower at 1:31,245. Kimi did at 1:30,795, Bottas 1:31,377. I would say on race pace, the Ferraris were simply quicker than the Mercedes today.

[Zico]

Vettel's fastest lap was 1:30,696, Lewis' more than half a second slower at 1:31,245. Kimi did at 1:30,795, Bottas 1:31,377. I would say on race pace, the Ferraris were simply quicker than the Mercedes today.

I havent looked at what laps they set them on but Id guess it was nearer the end when the cars were at their lightest/fastest and their was a huge tyre discrepancy between them?

Where is a good source for that info?

If Ferrari were faster I suspect it was much, much tighter than that.

[The Black Knight]

Vettel's fastest lap was 1:30,696, Lewis' more than half a second slower at 1:31,245. Kimi did at 1:30,795, Bottas 1:31,377. I would say on race pace, the Ferraris were simply quicker than the Mercedes today.

Those laps were all set on different fuel loads and tires at different points in the race.

For example, before the safety car, Lewis was over 1.2 seconds quicker than anyone else. Being on fresher tires had something to do with that but it doesn’t explain 1.2 seconds. He was quicker.

Seb set his time at the end of the race on a new set of SS’s. Mercedes had far less tire wear today as well. At that point Mercedes had the slower compound after being two reheating cycles. If Vettel hadn’t set a fastest lap of that time he would be pretty useless, like Kimi. Mercedes had the better pace today in Hamilton’s car, no doubt.

[airshifter]

Overall a really good race for Silverstone.

Hamilton was on his heels at the start, and personally I think the penalty on Kimi was more than adequate. Lewis knew he was there and counted on him backing out earlier. Shame for Lewis because had he given up that spot by leaving Kimi more room, he probably would have gotten it back on track regardless. Even Direstata commented the he thought Lewis didn't leave enough room.

Barring that incident, regardless of which way people see it, some very good racing by all the top finishers. The charge Lewis made back through the pack was impressive and clean, even though he seemed sure the car had issues. Kimi and the RB cars stayed clean and left us guessing if the moves could be made. After the safety cars just brilliant defending by Bottas as well as relentless attack mode by Seb. I really though Bottas had the better of him until Seb somehow got that late inside move. In hindsight still hard IMO to say whether Merc should have pitted either car... actually in this case I'm more inclined to think they got it right. The Ferrari's had real pace, and the tire stop would have probably sealed the race results.

Shame for both Max and Leclerc. I think Leclerc was up to 7th or 8th at one point near the start. Max had a clean race and his scrap with Ricciardo near the end probably had some more potential had the car stayed working properly.

[gm99]

Those laps were all set on different fuel loads and tires at different points in the race.


The lap times I quoted were all set within nine laps (between laps 43 and 52), with Lewis' and Kimi's fastest laps occuring on successive laps (51/52), so the effect of fuel loads is negligible. If anything, Vettel's time was set on a higher fuel load. Even when Lewis was in free air after he had passed Sainz and was catching Ricciardo, he wasn't faster than Vettel up front.

[The Black Knight]

The lap times I quoted were all set within nine laps (between laps 43 and 52), with Lewis' and Kimi's fastest laps occuring on successive laps (51/52), so the effect of fuel loads is negligible. If anything, Vettel's time was set on a higher fuel load. Even when Lewis was in free air after he had passed Sainz and was catching Ricciardo, he wasn't faster than Vettel up front.

No Vettel’s laptime was set just after he passed Bottas around lap 47. At that stage Hamilton’s tires were over 20 laps old. There was no chance of Hamilton matching Vettel’s
pace at that time.

And he was faster than Vettel up front when catching Ricciardo, he was much quicker than Vettel at that point in the race, by over a second most of the time, which is why the gap reduced by over 5 seconds. He was 26.7 seconds behind Vettel at one point on lap 14 and was 20 seconds behind him just before Vettel stopped on lap 21.

[gm99]

And he was faster than Vettel up front when catching Ricciardo, he was much quicker than Vettel at that point in the race, by over a second most of the time, which is why the gap reduced by over 5 seconds. He was 26.7 seconds behind Vettel at one point on lap 14 and was 20 seconds behind him just before Vettel stopped on lap 21.

If the gap had been only 20 seconds before Vettel's stop, wouldn't Lewis have been ahead of him until his own stop on lap 25, given that you lose a minimum of 25 seconds in the pits at Silverstone?

[Starter]

Interesting some of the comments about how useless Kimi is. Somehow that useless driver keeps snagging podiums though. Good for the constructors points and good for keeping points away from other drivers too.

[zako85]

This was a fine race. Hamilton was obviously disappointed after the race, but besides Raikkonen I hope he is also blaming himself or the car for the poor start. At the end of race, he recovered remarkably well and minimized his loss to Vettel.

[The Black Knight]

If the gap had been only 20 seconds before Vettel's stop, wouldn't Lewis have been ahead of him until his own stop on lap 25, given that you lose a minimum of 25 seconds in the pits at Silverstone?

You lose approx 19 seconds at Silverstone. Feel free to go back and look at it again. I took my figures directly from the TV coverage.

[The Black Knight]

Interesting some of the comments about how useless Kimi is. Somehow that useless driver keeps snagging podiums though. Good for the constructors points and good for keeping points away from other drivers too.

Keeps snagging podiums in a car his teammate keeps winning in. Keeps making mistakes in qualifying when it comes to the crunch. I can’t understand why Ferrari have kept him this long.

[Starter]

Keeps snagging podiums in a car his teammate keeps winning in. Keeps making mistakes in qualifying when it comes to the crunch. I can’t understand why Ferrari have kept him this long.
Because there is not a better driver available at the moment?

[The Black Knight]

Because there is not a better driver available at the moment?

Leclerc is available to them now. I'd be pretty confident he would do as equally a good job as Kimi at first and, after a year, be really pushing Sebastien.

[Starter]

Leclerc is available to them now. I'd be pretty confident he would do as equally a good job as Kimi at first and, after a year, be really pushing Sebastien.
That would be assuming Ferrari would chose to pay out Kimi's contract with half a season remaining. Those little details, like enforceable contracts, are problems those who don't write the checks can ignore. And that would be on top of what Ferrari would have to pay to buy LeClerc's contract. The off season is a much better time to make any changes the team may wish.

[Nitrodaze]

Considering Lewis pace throughout the race I’d say there’s a good chance Lewis woild have been able to overtake Vettel. This is the second time in 3 races a Ferrari has ruined a Mercedes race. First lap incidents or not, if it continues then Ferrari should be given harsher penalties, even starting the next race from the back. You can’t keep ruining your opponents race and not have any consequences.

We were deprived of a proper duel at the front by the collision. But the possibility of it depended on Hamilton in 3rd position getting past Bottas in similar car to get at Vettel. Though Hamilton appear to have a better pace than Bottas during the race, getting by would have been difficult without team orders. The Ferrari appears faster, but l think Hamilton had the pace to get something out of Vettels gammy neck and right front tyre issues if he were to get pass Bottas from 3rd. All of this are speculation of course.

The truth is, the Mercedes is falling behind the Ferrari. The small margin of advantages that Ferrari has, may just be enough to clinch both titles, if Ferrari keep their operational efficiency and track performance up. Mercedes always seem to find something in the 2nd half of each season, hence l expect they may bounce back. But if they don't do so in the next two races, it could slip away from them.

[The Black Knight]

That would be assuming Ferrari would chose to pay out Kimi's contract with half a season remaining. Those little details, like enforceable contracts, are problems those who don't write the checks can ignore. And that would be on top of what Ferrari would have to pay to buy LeClerc's contract. The off season is a much better time to make any changes the team may wish.

They are not going to replace him mid-season. That would be banana’s. Hopefully they’ll do it at the end of the year. Mind you, it’s been clear from F2 that Leclerc is a special talent so I would have taken the risk on him at the start of the year if I were Ferrari.


We were deprived of a proper duel at the front by the collision. But the possibility of it depended on Hamilton in 3rd position getting past Bottas in similar car to get at Vettel. Though Hamilton appear to have a better pace than Bottas during the race, getting by would have been difficult without team orders. The Ferrari appears faster, but l think Hamilton had the pace to get something out of Vettels gammy neck and right front tyre issues if he were to get pass Bottas from 3rd. All of this are speculation of course.

The truth is, the Mercedes is falling behind the Ferrari. The small margin of advantages that Ferrari has, may just be enough to clinch both titles, if Ferrari keep their operational efficiency and track performance up. Mercedes always seem to find something in the 2nd half of each season, hence l expect they may bounce back. But if they don't do so in the next two races, it could slip away from them.

More worryingly to me about Mercedes is that France was the first big upgrade they brought to the car, meanwhile Ferrari are bringing modifications to every race. Mercedes to up their game in this area, big time.

[truefan72]

I was less bothered with the kimi incident and more annoyed with the driving of Bottas.
Here is what I took from the race. Bottas is clearly the worst amongst the top 6.
All too often when mercedes need him the most to to keep the ferrari honest or challenge for the win he simply lets them drive away and offers nothing in terms of challenging the car.Being content in coming home second does nothing for me, when you clearly have the car to stick with vettel and provide some sort of challenge.
Yes people talk about him being unlucky etc. But apart from Baku, he has not impressed me with his racecraft or the ability to challenge the car ahead.
silverstone was a race where Mercedes needed him to step up and couldn't.
If verstappen, ricciardo, hulkenberg, alonso or leclerc where in that 2nd car there is no way they would have allowed vettel to drive off into the distance like that.
That factor along with the shambolic race day strategy by Mercedes has been their undoing.
Vettel took a well deserved victory, Hamilton did all he could after his spin, Kimi showed some real bite in the race.
It was entertaining, albeit a bit frustrating. so far 2018 has produced a lot of good races and drama.

[The Black Knight]

I was less bothered with the kimi incident and more annoyed with the driving of Bottas.
Here is what I took from the race. Bottas is clearly the worst amongst the top 6.
All too often when mercedes need him the most to to keep the ferrari honest or challenge for the win he simply lets them drive away and offers nothing in terms of challenging the car.Being content in coming home second does nothing for me, when you clearly have the car to stick with vettel and provide some sort of challenge.
Yes people talk about him being unlucky etc. But apart from Baku, he has not impressed me with his racecraft or the ability to challenge the car ahead.
silverstone was a race where Mercedes needed him to step up and couldn't.
If verstappen, ricciardo, hulkenberg, alonso or leclerc where in that 2nd car there is no way they would have allowed vettel to drive off into the distance like that.
That factor along with the shambolic race day strategy by Mercedes has been their undoing.
Vettel took a well deserved victory, Hamilton did all he could after his spin, Kimi showed some real bite in the race.
It was entertaining, albeit a bit frustrating. so far 2018 has produced a lot of good races and drama.

I agree regarding Bottas. He has still to really impress me since he joined F1 at all.

What annoys me more is that he knew exactly where Vettel was going to try and pass him yet he made absolutely zero attempt at a defense. If I were a team boss I would not be impressed. Regardless of how shabby your tyres looked. At least move over to the left of the track, make the other driver take the long way around. He can't pretend he was surprised by it. It's not like Vettel hadn't tried to pass him at that corner a couple of times before. What he did was indefensible and deserves a royal bollocking from the team.

[Nitrodaze]

I was less bothered with the kimi incident and more annoyed with the driving of Bottas.
Here is what I took from the race. Bottas is clearly the worst amongst the top 6.
All too often when mercedes need him the most to to keep the ferrari honest or challenge for the win he simply lets them drive away and offers nothing in terms of challenging the car.Being content in coming home second does nothing for me, when you clearly have the car to stick with vettel and provide some sort of challenge.
Yes people talk about him being unlucky etc. But apart from Baku, he has not impressed me with his racecraft or the ability to challenge the car ahead.
silverstone was a race where Mercedes needed him to step up and couldn't.
If verstappen, ricciardo, hulkenberg, alonso or leclerc where in that 2nd car there is no way they would have allowed vettel to drive off into the distance like that.
That factor along with the shambolic race day strategy by Mercedes has been their undoing.
Vettel took a well deserved victory, Hamilton did all he could after his spin, Kimi showed some real bite in the race.
It was entertaining, albeit a bit frustrating. so far 2018 has produced a lot of good races and drama.

Bottas has not raised his game to level of Rosberg whom he replaced. And that is a weakness at Mercedes. But l would not blame Bottas for Vettel getting by him at Silverstone. He simply did not have the tyres to fight, which is why he drifted back to 4th position at the end of the race. The fact of the matter is that Mercedes chose to keep him out when evryone else were coming in for fresh tyres during the safety car period. The Safety car actually saved Vettel from the Mercedes, because he had bad wear problems with his front left tyre l think. Mercedes probably gifted the win to Vettel by their poor strategy call.

That said, there is doubt that he deserves that seat with Ricciado available to Mercedes. But l can see how Ricciado would not be attractive to Mercedes. They would very much like to avoid another infighting that stretched the stability of the team to almost breaking point when Rosberg was in the team. Ricciado in a Mercede would want to prove the he can do to Hamilton what he did to Vettel at Redbull and Hamilton would definitely not have any of it. This is where the tension would erupt from.

[Nitrodaze]

Regardless of how shabby your tyres looked. At least move over to the left of the track, make the other driver take the long way around.
When the tyre is done, it is difficult to command tight turns at corners. Bottas did not have the grip to make the required defensive tight turn to cover the inside because the car was drifting out due to lack of grip. The result is a gaping hole that Vettel was gratefull for. From where we are seating, it looked ugly. But the best of them with that set of tires would have found it just as hard to keep the fast Ferrari with fresher tires behind.

The situation does unfortunately and probably unfairly bring Bottas into question as to whether he is deserving of that Mercedes seat. That said, he has out performed Hamilton more times this year than was expected. Don't forget that he passed Hamilton in the race to be in that position.

[truefan72]

Bottas has not raised his game to level of Rosberg whom he replaced. And that is a weakness at Mercedes. But l would not blame Bottas for Vettel getting by him at Silverstone. He simply did not have the tyres to fight, which is why he drifted back to 4th position at the end of the race. The fact of the matter is that Mercedes chose to keep him out when evryone else were coming in for fresh tyres during the safety car period. The Safety car actually saved Vettel from the Mercedes, because he had bad wear problems with his front left tyre l think. Mercedes probably gifted the win to Vettel by their poor strategy call.
Yeah, My issue was with the first part of the race not the late safety car. He could do nothing about those turn of events with the poor strategy by mercedes. He did offer no resistance or challenge to Vettel in the earlier part of the race. He did not push, did not apply any kind of pressure whatsoever to him and allowed vettel to dictate the race.
He just doesn't seem to be able to even extract the maximum of what the car can give him. let alone more than that. If rosberg would have been in that car, they probably would have won that race and Hamilton finish 3rd. I think this year's car is pretty damn good and probably should have won 3 more races than they currently have.


That said, there is doubt that he deserves that seat with Ricciado available to Mercedes. But l can see how Ricciado would not be attractive to Mercedes. They would very much like to avoid another infighting that stretched the stability of the team to almost breaking point when Rosberg was in the team. Ricciado in a Mercedes would want to prove the he can do to Hamilton what he did to Vettel at Redbull and Hamilton would definitely not have any of it. This is where the tension would erupt from.

I hear you on this, but as toxic as that combination was, as a team, they were beyond dominant. If one driver didn't win, the other probably did. I knew exactly what mercedes was gonna get with bottas. And thy did win both titles last year, but to me Bottas is firmly a #2 driver. I hoped they would have gone after hulkenberg or wherlein. but we got bottas. Ricciardo seems to be resigning with RBR. If I were mercedes, i would leave it late and see how things shape up. If Hamilton wins his 5th, I won't mind them giving a 1 year deal to alonso or even Vandoorne (who i still think would be an excellent driver), and then see bottas off to mclaren.

[Nitrodaze]

Yeah, My issue was with the first part of the race not the late safety car. He could do nothing about those turn of events with the poor strategy by mercedes. He did offer no resistance or challenge to Vettel in the earlier part of the race. He did not push, did not apply any kind of pressure whatsoever to him and allowed vettel to dictate the race.
He just doesn't seem to be able to even extract the maximum of what the car can give him. let alone more than that. If rosberg would have been in that car, they probably would have won that race and Hamilton finish 3rd. I think this year's car is pretty damn good and probably should have won 3 more races than they currently have.



I hear you on this, but as toxic as that combination was, as a team, they were beyond dominant. If one driver didn't win, the other probably did. I knew exactly what mercedes was gonna get with bottas. And thy did win both titles last year, but to me Bottas is firmly a #2 driver. I hoped they would have gone after hulkenberg or wherlein. but we got bottas. Ricciardo seems to be resigning with RBR. If I were mercedes, i would leave it late and see how things shape up. If Hamilton wins his 5th, I won't mind them giving a 1 year deal to alonso or even Vandoorne (who i still think would be an excellent driver), and then see bottas off to mclaren.

I agree, Hulkenburg or Wehrlien would have matched this Bottas performance and even better it. I was disappointed when they did not promote from within, when they had the brilliant Ocon and Wehrlien available. Bottas has been a disappointment to many Mercedes fans for his lack of aggression and determination in car to car battle. That said, he is darn quick when he is on it.

[truefan72]

I agree, Hulkenburg or Wehrlien would have matched this Bottas performance and even better it. I was disappointed when they did not promote from within, when they had the brilliant Ocon and Wehrlien available. Bottas has been a disappointment to many Mercedes fans for his lack of aggression and determination in car to car battle. That said, he is darn quick when he is on it.

yup :up: