Rally Mexico 2018

[OHL]

Do You consider the other way around possibility? - Drivers from the back of the field already have some points from the PS and might risk attacking a bit more on Saturday afternoon & Sunday? Hmmmm.....

No, I don't think that will achieve the same result as current power stage on Sunday. Do I have proof, no, but I don't think teams would risk finishing position points just because they already had a few in the bank. There typically just isn't enough mileage on Sunday to make a real impact on the times with straight driving.
Every action has many unforeseen consequences and what may seem like a good idea needs careful study to make sure it doesn't just make more problems.

[GravelBen]

This whole issue could have started and ended in Sweden.

If the other Teams had accepted that Ogier/M-Sport's action was a one-off due to their desperation to get some points on a rally where they were basically denied through no fault of their own.

The FIA even asked everyone not to behave like this on the Mexico PS.

But no, Hyundai and Toyota had to act like children in Mexico saying, well if they did it we're going to do it. Even though the rally and circumstances were totally different.

Do you wear a patch or were you born with only one eye?

[Rallyper]

Coming late PS excludes the driver from points on PS. That´s it. Why so many words?
FIA just didn´t find it out from beginning.

[sonnybobiche]

The solution is so simple that I don't understand why it's even debated:

Time penalties for late check-in should be applied directly to the stage time, not the overall rally time. Check in one minute late to a stage, and you get 10 seconds added to your stage time.

The overall penalty doesn't change, but now it's almost impossible to benefit from checking in late. Done. No gimmicks, no additional rules, no special exemptions, no arbitrary and capricious decisions by the stewards, no inconsistency, no misunderstanding or confusion.

[denkimi]

The solution is so simple that I don't understand why it's even debated:

Time penalties for late check-in should be applied directly to the stage time, not the overall rally time. Check in one minute late to a stage, and you get 10 seconds added to your stage time.

The overall penalty doesn't change, but now it's almost impossible to benefit from checking in late. Done. No gimmicks, no additional rules, no special exemptions, no arbitrary and capricious decisions by the stewards, no inconsistency, no misunderstanding or confusion.
They can just come late on the penultimate stage.

They could even be late on the first stage of the day and choose not to open the road. I'm actually surprised nobody has done that yet.

[OHL]

The solution is so simple that I don't understand why it's even debated:

Time penalties for late check-in should be applied directly to the stage time, not the overall rally time. Check in one minute late to a stage, and you get 10 seconds added to your stage time.

The overall penalty doesn't change, but now it's almost impossible to benefit from checking in late. Done. No gimmicks, no additional rules, no special exemptions, no arbitrary and capricious decisions by the stewards, no inconsistency, no misunderstanding or confusion.

When you change a rule you have to look at the intent and impact of the rule and then what is the intent and impact of the change. This is why I say it's not so simple. The current penalties for arriving to controls outside allocated time is 10 seconds per minute for being late, and 1 minute per minute for being early. Why are they different? The main reason is to discourage speeding and wreckless driving for a crew that are late to a stage start. If they have a problem from the previous stage or run into a problem on the transit, they have some flexibility and if they are a little bit late the penalty is not so severe. It is intended to help crews.
In the case of the power stage, where stage time is all that matters, and you implement the fix you have suggested, then you penalize everyone who has a legitimate problem from the previous stage or on the road section. They are instantly out of contention for power stage points and they did nothing wrong or unsporting. This is why it is not so simple and requires looking at every angle. The current rule is there for a reason. It is a good rule, it is just being exploited.
One solution could be to have a regroup before the power stage and announce the start order after all of the P1 cars have checked in. That would cause other issues like a little bit longer day, etc. but it's just one idea.

[steve.mandzij]

This whole issue could have started and ended in Sweden.

If the other Teams had accepted that Ogier/M-Sport's action was a one-off due to their desperation to get some points on a rally where they were basically denied through no fault of their own.

The FIA even asked everyone not to behave like this on the Mexico PS.

But no, Hyundai and Toyota had to act like children in Mexico saying, well if they did it we're going to do it. Even though the rally and circumstances were totally different.Just saying, Tanak tried the tricks because, from no fault of his own (as you say of Ogier), his turbo shat itself.

[AnttiL]

One solution could be to have a regroup before the power stage and announce the start order after all of the P1 cars have checked in. That would cause other issues like a little bit longer day, etc. but it's just one idea.

This is actually how they do it now. That’s why it’s hugely unlikely anyone would genuinely be late from the power stage

[OHL]

This is actually how they do it now. That’s why it’s hugely unlikely anyone would genuinely be late from the power stage

I wasn't clear, what I meant was a regroup at stage start. In Mexico it was 13.5km from regroup to stage start.
I do agree with you that it is unlikely to have a genuine problem but it is impossible to know if someone is having a legitimate problem or not and removing the road section from the equation could help. Of course then the car would magically not start! That's been done may times before too to get an extra minute!

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Just saying, Tanak tried the tricks because, from no fault of his own (as you say of Ogier), his turbo shat itself.

Totally different. A car failure happens, but the rules of a rally are a decision. And Tanak's driving could also have caused his engine problem...

The FIA are going to stop it now:
https://www.motorsport-news.co.uk/news/rallying-news/wrc/fia-planning-to-amend-powerstage-rules/y

[T16]

Can’t we just get rid of the stupid power stage anyway.
Purists.... does it really make you more excited about rallying?
I think it’s a load of shit..... got NASCAR written all over it.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

OK all you geniuses... if not a Power Stage how else can they prevent the Sunday from generally being a cruise snooze and the cars that retired not even running ?

[EstWRC]

Totally different. A car failure happens, but the rules of a rally are a decision. And Tanak's driving could also have caused his engine problem...

The FIA are going to stop it now:
https://www.motorsport-news.co.uk/news/rallying-news/wrc/fia-planning-to-amend-powerstage-rules/y

ROFL!!!!

Unbelievable....

I still haven’t understood if you are joking or not

[Fast Eddie WRC]

No, but seriously... you cant use a car failure as an excuse to bend the rules.

If someone drives perfectly and does every stage and its for no reward, then they have bit more leeway IMO.

[Mirek]

No, but seriously... you cant use a car failure as an excuse to bend the rules.

You don't bend the rules. You either break them or not. Simple as that. Just stop crying.

[mknight]

You don't bend the rules. You either break them or not. Simple as that. Just stop crying.

Which brings us back to square one.

Ogier in Sweden, Tanak and Neuville in Mexico all broke rules... and got penalized.

Just the penalties did not hurt them at all (in case of Tanak and Neuville) or they could calculate the benefits against each other (Ogier, before Evans got sacrificed)).
-------------

So can we stop discussing the facts and instead focus on the issues on the table.

Penalty rules were never modified for powerstage introduction

[GravelBen]

No, but seriously... you cant use a car failure as an excuse to bend the rules.

If someone drives perfectly and does every stage and its for no reward, then they have bit more leeway IMO.

I bet you would have said the opposite if it happened when Ogier was driving a VW and Tanak a Ford.

Lets be honest, Ogier did it essentially because he didn't like the weather. The rules have been the same every round, sometimes an advantage for him and sometimes a disadvantage. The variable was the weather conditions.

[steve.mandzij]

No, but seriously... you cant use a car failure as an excuse to bend the rules.

If someone drives perfectly and does every stage and its for no reward, then they have bit more leeway IMO.You can't use a lack of pace for that either.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

You don't bend the rules. You either break them or not. Simple as that.

Ogier & MSport didnt break the rules they used the rules to partly overcome a huge disadvantage.

Tanak & Neuville and their teams just copied even though they had no excuse or disadvantage.

[kirungi okwogera]

You have a weird definition of what a fair and unfair disadvantage might be. Doesn't Ogier have an advantage too, of being a fast driver? Maybe it should be allowed for others to sabotage his car. After all, he's put them at a disadvantage.

[focus206]

Ogier & MSport didnt break the rules they used the rules to partly overcome a huge disadvantage.

Tanak & Neuville and their teams just copied even though they had no excuse or disadvantage.

And how do you exactly determine how big is a "huge disadvantage"? Who is there to judge the amount of disadvantage, you? Isn't Neuville's swiping for 3 days is Mexico a huge disadvantage? What about Tanak and Latvala, who in Sweden had to swipe a lot as well because of the snow?

[BigWorm]

Ogier & MSport didnt break the rules they used the rules to partly overcome a huge disadvantage.

Tanak & Neuville and their teams just copied even though they had no excuse or disadvantage.

Aren't mechanical failures disadvantages?

[N.O.T]

Do you find it funny to trigger someones mental disability ? the guy obviously is at his limit of brain activity... why you do this ?

[EightGear]

Ogier & MSport didnt break the rules they used the rules to partly overcome a huge disadvantage.

Tanak & Neuville and their teams just copied even though they had no excuse or disadvantage.Just stop it now, you're only making yourself seem more ridiculous by every post.

[tommeke_B]

No, keep going. :D It can't get any worse from now on...

[N.O.T]

No, keep going. :D It can't get any worse from now on...

he is british... everything is possible.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

And you're a Greek so nothing is possible... just endless miserable cynicism

[Fast Eddie WRC]

If everyone is happy that Tanak and Neuville did the right thing in Mexico PS then I give up.

Fairness and justification obviously mean nothing.

[EightGear]

If everyone is happy that Tanak and Neuville did the right thing in Mexico PS then I give up.

Fairness and justification obviously mean nothing.Nobody is saying they did anything right or wrong, only that they did exactly what Ogier did.

My God.

[pantealex]

If everyone is happy that Tanak and Neuville did the right thing in Mexico PS then I give up.

Fairness and justification obviously mean nothing.

For me every 3 (or4) driver has did it wrong but M-Sport did it 2 times, 1st with Ogier and after that they made Evans take time penalty, feels like team orders to me and it was only 2nd event in season 18.

[focus206]

If everyone is happy that Tanak and Neuville did the right thing in Mexico PS then I give up.

Fairness and justification obviously mean nothing.

Yes, give up. There's nothing fair in being a blind fan who tries to scrap every little excuse to give advantage to his favourite team and drivers. The fact that you don't even realize your huge double standards (M-Sport and british drivers vs everything and everyone else) is worrying.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

What is so ironic is that none of you understand that M-Sport were only looking for some fairness in Sweden after the joke snow sweeping (and Historics) preventing any chance of points.

In Mexico there was no PS justification for Toyota or Hyundai as Tanak and Neuville lost time due to car unreliability.

My argument is NOT bias... its about fairness.

[Tarmop]

What is ironic is that you still can`t take your fan-glasses off. There were many, who had disadvantages from their start position, including Tänak and Latvala. Both started where they were supposed to, having one car less in front of them (Ogier) AND M-Sport continued it by letting Evans get even a bigger fine to give Ogier 1(!) point. They didn`t like that at the time. Now all the teams say, that it is OK and in the end the one who collects more points wins. So...STFU please, this is getting too old and tiresome.

[N.O.T]

can we please let this thread die a horrible death ? arguing with a triggered mentally challenged person is not good for anyone.

[EightGear]

What is so ironic is that none of you understand that M-Sport were only looking for some fairness in Sweden after the joke snow sweeping (and Historics) preventing any chance of points.

In Mexico there was no PS justification for Toyota or Hyundai as Tanak and Neuville lost time due to car unreliability.

My argument is NOT bias... its about fairness.'Fairness' my ***. This is a cut-throat top level competition with large stakes.

If the rules allow it, teams and drivers will take any opportunity to gain the slightest advantage.

[AL14]

Yes just let this go, it's becoming embarassing even just reading it.

[focus206]

My argument is NOT bias... its about fairness.

And who judges when it's fair or not? Fair is when rules are the same for everybody, not "oh boo-hoo, poor Ogier/M-Sport/british driver, he was unlucky with weather conditions, we'll make an exception for him". Tough luck, this is the World Rally Championship, not the Kindergarten Rally Championship.

[er88]

My argument is NOT bias... its about fairness.

Yeah, sure....

Until the rules are re-written it doesn't matter what YOU think is fair. Tanak and Neuville took advantage of the loophole, just like Seb and Msport did. The rules allow it so other drivers will do it too, until the FIA do something about it. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180318/a12d93e5548774d15cdb3809caea33c6.jpg

[N.O.T]

Yeah, sure....

Until the rules are re-written it doesn't matter what YOU think is fair. Tanak and Neuville took advantage of the loophole, just like Seb and Msport did. The rules allow it so other drivers will do it too, until the FIA do something about it. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180318/a12d93e5548774d15cdb3809caea33c6.jpg

you cannot go full retard when you are already a full retard man...

this thread is going to end all of us in jail for hate speech against the disabled...

[danon]

https://s5.postimg.org/bqhe4c5fb/fairness.jpg

[spiderem]

any news on the appeal from M-Sport for the chicane penalty during PS for Ogier?

[Rallyper]

any news on the appeal from M-Sport for the chicane penalty during PS for Ogier?

Suppose the result standing. At least FantasyWRC are firm with original penalty ... ;(

[AL14]

any news on the appeal from M-Sport for the chicane penalty during PS for Ogier?

They are judging how much the situation was particular and exceptional and the level of fairness. Give them time.

[rallyfiend]

any news on the appeal from M-Sport for the chicane penalty during PS for Ogier?

It'll take some weeks likely.

International Appeal Courts take time to arrange.

[EstWRC]

any news on the appeal from M-Sport for the chicane penalty during PS for Ogier?

about it

Tänak in his blog today says that after the first pass M-sport were the ones who were asking to penalise everyone who cut it again second time....

[sonnybobiche]

about it

Tänak in his blog today says that after the first pass M-sport were the ones who were asking to penalise everyone who cut it again second time....

Interesting. They wouldn't shoot themselves in the foot, so this must have been before the stage. If I were to guess, MSport were asking them to penalize everyone who cut it again and the organizer demurred, so that's when Ogier decided he too would cut the chicane. Damned if he was going to let Neuville be the only one to benefit again.

[mknight]

Interesting. They wouldn't shoot themselves in the foot, so this must have been before the stage. If I were to guess, MSport were asking them to penalize everyone who cut it again and the organizer demurred, so that's when Ogier decided he too would cut the chicane. Damned if he was going to let Neuville be the only one to benefit again.

Perhaps you have not been following this from the start. In that case I recommend you to re-read the decision which says exactly what Tanak now repeated.

https://www.ewrc.cz/images/2018/mexico/dec.jpg

I'll repeat what has been stated before:

Ogier asked before the stage what would happen and was told it would be given to stewards (so likely penalty).
And yes Neuville moved it a lot on the first pass so I guess that's why Ogier asked. It also can be that Ogier moved it in the PS by accident and not on purpose.

[dimviii]

Tanak ss 22 incar
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0B3LSBrBpw&feature=youtu.be

[BigWorm]

For the Estonians, is Martin calling ''narrows'' towards the end there?

[EstWRC]

yes, they have couple of english words in pacenotes.

[AnttiL]

yes, they have couple of english words in pacenotes.

That's interesting. Kankkunen had always English notes with a couple of Finnish words thrown in :D

Also, if I understood correctly, I noticed during Monte and Sweden, how on a long straight, Järveoja counts down the distance to the next corner, like 300...200...100...I don't think anyone else does that?

[dupanton]

That's interesting. Kankkunen had always English notes with a couple of Finnish words thrown in :D

Also, if I understood correctly, I noticed during Monte and Sweden, how on a long straight, Järveoja counts down the distance to the next corner, like 300...200...100...I don't think anyone else does that?

I heard Gilsoul do it too, on the long straight were they all went straight in to the field.

[AnttiL]

I heard Gilsoul do it too, on the long straight were they all went straight in to the field.

Yeah, that place exactly, and on the final long straight of Likenäs on the last day of Sweden

[AL14]

English words are "smaller" so you will take less time to pronounce them and can have a better rhythm on giving them to the driver. Also you can give more info in the same amount of time.
I guess this is why even non english speakers sometimes use them.

[Mintexmemory]

English words are "smaller" so you will take less time to pronounce them

My heartiest contrafibularities on your summary of the reason for non-anglophones using the tongue of Shakespeare, Dickens and Bowie!
Use of long words, especially in rallying, can cause a certain amount of pericombobulation!

[AnttiL]

I would say with my small Estonian knowledge that it's a more efficient pace note language than Finnish because the words are generally a bit shorter than in Finnish, although the languages are otherwise quite similar.

[AL14]

My heartiest contrafibularities on your summary of the reason for non-anglophones using the tongue of Shakespeare, Dickens and Bowie!
Use of long words, especially in rallying, can cause a certain amount of pericombobulation!

http://gifimage.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/wat-gif-3.gif

[er88]

Didn't realise Tanak got lucky at the end there and nearly binned it on the cobbles. Suppose he had nothing to lose anyway

[Mintexmemory]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOSYiT2iG08