Mexico '17

[Starter]

Interesting front row.

[jimclark]

Interesting last row too.

[Tazio]

Interesting front row.I see trouble at turn 1.

[Starter]

I see trouble at turn 1.
That far into the race?

[The Black Knight]

Interesting decision by the Stewards regarding Bottas and Max in qualifying. It's clear as day that Verstappen compromised Bottas lap and yet no penalty issued? A penalty was more justified and clear cut in this case than it was in Austin. More inconsistency from the FIA - wonder what screw ups today will bring.

[airshifter]

Seb and Max on the front row.... what could happen? :laugh:

Interesting sessions through practice and qually. I think there is potential for a good race in Mexico.

[Tazio]

Danny boy getting new PU and starting from the back!
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/headlines/2017/10/engine-change-to-drop-ricciardo-down-mexico-grid.html
This has turned into an interesting race.
I don't think it will happen but I need the Boss to win this thing for my Inter-Forum pick'ems :angryfire ;)

[Bagwan]

Sorry , Tazzy , old man , but a non-finish for Lewis is what the championship needs .
If he and Maximum come together at some point , under some controversial move from one or both of them , we'd get the most press for this .
That and a Ferrari win would really stir up the season .

This could be fun . I like this track .

[jimclark]

Have I missed something?! It's already started???!!! Sheet. I thought it was 2 hours from now......


edit: Sheesh...you scared the sheet out of me......

[steveaki13]

This should be an interesting race. As you say Bagwan. A couple of DNFs for Lewis would be good. Seb win a couple and game on in UAE :p

I know he gets some stick, but whatever the case. If Hamilton wins he becomes the best British driver in terms of titles and wins. That is an incredible thing. Plus matches Vettel and Prost.

Schumacher 7
Fangio 5
Vettel 4
Hamilton 4
Prost 4

those 5 drivers above the rest in terms of titles is something he should be proud of in my opinion

[Tazio]

Sorry , Tazzy , old man , but a non-finish for Lewis is what the championship needs .
If he and Maximum come together at some point , under some controversial move from one or both of them , we'd get the most press for this .
That and a Ferrari win would really stir up the season .

This could be fun . I like this track .
I could live with that, but I need the rest of my picks to fall in line :crazy:
I looking forward to a really fun race!

[steveaki13]

I could live with that, but I need the rest of my picks to fall in line :crazy:
I looking forward to a really fun race!

I say the pickems (which I disgracefully missed this season) are more important than the F1 title. :arrowed:

[jimclark]

I see it different than you guys. It's been a great season already; up in the air 'twixt Hamilton, Vettel and Bottas 'til just recently. And races? Red Bull has had it's nose in there all season.

Nope, not bad at all.... :)

[Tazio]

I say the pickems (which I disgracefully missed this season) are more important than the F1 title. :arrowed:Amen brother!:cool:

[steveaki13]

Vamos Mexico :hot:

[Bagwan]

I see it different than you guys. It's been a great season already; up in the air 'twixt Hamilton, Vettle and Bottas 'til just recently. And races? Red Bull has had it's nose in there all season.

Nope, not bad at all.... :)

Just want it to go all the way to the line , Mr. Jim .
Good season , I agree .

[Bagwan]

Have I missed something?! It's already started???!!! Sheet. I thought it was 2 hours from now......


edit: Sheesh...you scared the sheet out of me......

Sorry , dude .

Have a good race .

[truefan72]

Vettel. Smh red mist and tried to end Hamilton's race. That was dirty

[steveaki13]

Vettel. Smh red mist and tried to end Hamilton's race. That was dirty

I love the idea but sadly he just ran wide after contact with Verstappen. I would have done it myself but Seb this time did nothing dirty IMO.

It does Vettel no good to retire or not finish up front.

Just except racing incidents happen. Hamilton will win his title today. Its all good

[truefan72]

Smh. The guy runs into him and stewards say no investigation. They are blind and dumb. How many times is vettel gonna get away with this. And now he leaves the track and gains an advantage. Just like verstappen at cota.

[gm99]

Smh. The guy runs into him and stewards say no investigation. They are blind and dumb.

Or simply not afflicted by a heavy bias against Vettel.

[truefan72]

Grosjean got a 5 sec penalty will the stewards be consistent and hand the same to vettel?

[The Black Knight]

The Stewards won't give Vettel a penalty. If they won't investigate him for clearly and intentionally hitting Hamilton then they won't give a penalty for an off track overtake. This is Ferrari International Assistance at its maximum today.

[gm99]

Hülkenberg is rather unlucky as well.

[steveaki13]

I agree about Vettel leaving the track. In a different way though. I think Vettel didnt deserve to be penalised as I didn't want to see Verstappen penalised last race. Lets these guys sort it like men :D

No penalty for Vettel because he did nothing intentional to Hamilton. Believe it or not contact can happen and be an accident.

[steveaki13]

Or simply not afflicted by a heavy bias against Vettel.

Thats the one :laugh:

[steveaki13]

The Stewards won't give Vettel a penalty. If they won't investigate him for clearly and intentionally hitting Hamilton then they won't give a penalty for an off track overtake. This is Ferrari International Assistance at its maximum today.

If you didnt always have the same anti Vettel posting I would understand the point of view. Sadly it does affect the response to what you say

[The Black Knight]

If you didnt always have the same anti Vettel posting I would understand the point of view. Sadly it does affect the response to what you say
If Vettel wasn't a glaring cheat I wouldn't have to. It's as obvious today as it was in Baku that vettel did that intentionally- contact can happen but not accelerate into a guy like that.

I really don't appreciate how Haas and Sauber drivers are jumping out of the way of the Ferrari's either. This is pure Ferrari assistance and is why I always can't stand them.

[The Black Knight]

Or simply not afflicted by a heavy bias against Vettel.

Eh, more than likely they are and have been told to leave it all slide by the powers that be.

[truefan72]

If Vettel wasn't a glaring cheat I wouldn't have to. It's as obvious today as it was in Baku that vettel did that intentionally- contact can happen but not accelerate into a guy like that.

I really don't appreciate how Haas and Sauber drivers are jumping out of the way of the Ferrari's either. This is pure Ferrari assistance and is why I always can't stand them.
Today has been shambolic by the stewards. Any other person who intentionally drives into his championship rival would get penalised. Then he makes an off track pass.
Rubbish

[jimclark]

Sorry , dude .

Have a good race .
Thanks, but it wasn't you...it was Tazio's post (#7) "This has turned into an interesting race."

I received e-m notification of his post, read it and thought I had missed the start. :)

[The Black Knight]

Today has been shambolic by the stewards. Any other person who intentionally drives into his championship rival would get penalised. Then he makes an off track pass.
Rubbish

And of course, the gutless wonders that are the Sky commentators take the easy way out and don't call it as it is. We'll know in 15 laps anyway. Don't think Vettel will get the second he needs anyway. If he does Bottas may find a pink slip in his pay cheque.

Every single driver today simply let Vettel past except Alonso.

[gm99]

Every single driver today simply let Vettel past except Alonso.

They must all be on Ferrari's payroll :p

[truefan72]

vindication!

[jimclark]

I love the idea but sadly he just ran wide after contact with Verstappen. I would have done it myself but Seb this time did nothing dirty IMO.

It does Vettel no good to retire or not finish up front.

Just except racing incidents happen. Hamilton will win his title today. Its all good

Look at Vettels in-car again. He jogged the wheel to the left twice to contact Hamilton. ;)

Reminds of Michael with Damon.... :(

[steveaki13]

If Vettel wasn't a glaring cheat I wouldn't have to. It's as obvious today as it was in Baku that vettel did that intentionally- contact can happen but not accelerate into a guy like that.

I really don't appreciate how Haas and Sauber drivers are jumping out of the way of the Ferrari's either. This is pure Ferrari assistance and is why I always can't stand them.

I like F1, Hamilton, Vettel, Alonso and everyone really and believe I have no bias and I don't see it anything like you say.

I also fully admit to being fairly harsh with penalties and that stuff. I fully understand why a driver may do the Schumacher/Senna type of thing in a Championship fight. So I can not be called naive. However I dont see that here. Sorry:)

[The Black Knight]

Look at Vettels in-car again. He jogged the wheel to the left twice to contact Hamilton. ;)

Reminds of Michael with Damon.... :(

Yeah he did. I saw it straight away. It was clearly intentionally done. Yet, Stewards bottle it once more. Incredible really, and such an obvious display of bias towards helping Ferrari.

Anyway, it didn't work for the cheating little runt. Never has a driver deserved to lose a championship more than Vettel has this year.

Hamilton I think drove better this year than any other. I don't believe this was the best overall car this year. Even Vettel stated he felt Ferrari was the best car this year.Hamilton made the difference. It just shows how good he is. The only driver in a long time to win with the second best car. Awesome driver! Terrific etiquette and a truly great sportsman.

[steveaki13]

Look at Vettels in-car again. He jogged the wheel to the left twice to contact Hamilton. ;)

Reminds of Michael with Damon.... :(

If he did then fair play and it didnt work. I am hard to shock.

However after contact with Max he clumped the inside kerb and could have had the back end step out as he hit the ground.

We can all give our opinion. Only Vettel knows. Everyone stating fact at me in this argument only have an opinion. No more or less valued than mine. ;)

[steveaki13]

Yeah he did. I saw it straight away. It was clearly intentionally done. Yet, Stewards bottle it once more. Incredible really, and such an obvious display of bias towards helping Ferrari.

Anyway, it didn't work for the cheating little runt. Never has a driver deserved to lose a championship more than Vettel has this year.

Hamilton I think drove better this year than any other. I don't believe this was the best overall car this year. Even Vettel stated he felt Ferrari was the best car this year.Hamilton made the difference. It just shows how good he is. The only driver in a long time to win with the second best car. Awesome driver! Terrific etiquette and a truly great aportsman.

Senna taking Prost out at turn 1? :p

Looking at a TV angle and giving an opinion does not make it fact. Anyway good season, good battle and well deserved World Champion. Great stuff

[The Black Knight]

Senna taking Prost out at turn 1? :p

Looking at a TV angle and giving an opinion does not make it fact. Anyway good season, good battle and well deserved World Champion. Great stuff

Something I think Senna should have not alone been banned for but the ban should have been a permanent one.

Agree, it was a great season and the best driver and team won.

[The Black Knight]

I like F1, Hamilton, Vettel, Alonso and everyone really and believe I have no bias and I don't see it anything like you say.

I also fully admit to being fairly harsh with penalties and that stuff. I fully understand why a driver may do the Schumacher/Senna type of thing in a Championship fight. So I can not be called naive. However I dont see that here. Sorry:)

I respect that. You have your opinion, I have mine! :)

[jimclark]

If he did then fair play and it didnt work. I am hard to shock.

However after contact with Max he clumped the inside kerb and could have had the back end step out as he hit the ground.

We can all give our opinion. Only Vettel knows. Everyone stating fact at me in this argument only have an opinion. No more or less valued than mine. ;)

"Fair play"? The sport is "auto racing" on a global scale, not bumper cars at your local fair; nor figure eights at your local short track on Saturday nights. :(

'Didn't work? I could have sworn I saw his wing contact Lewis' right rear and Lewis pitting for replacement...what do I know? :rolleyes:

It doesn't take two corrections to stop a step-out. (I didn't see Vettel sideways in the in-car; he just jogged the wheel to the left twice while accelerating)

I didn't give an opinion, just an observation. I couldn't care less who wins, I was only a fan of my screennamesake, none since. :)

[The Black Knight]

"Fair play"? The sport is "auto racing" on a global scale, not bumper cars at your local fair; nor figure eights at your local short track on Saturday nights. :(

'Didn't work? I could have sworn I saw his wing contact Lewis' right rear and Lewis pitting for replacement...what do I know? :rolleyes:

It doesn't take two corrections to stop a step-out. (I didn't see Vettel sideways in the in-car; he just jogged the wheel to the left twice while accelerating)

I didn't give an opinion, just an observation. I could care less who wins, I was only a fan of my screennamesake, none since. :)

And if you’re under steering there you don’t steer into it, you steer to the right in that situation not left. The car wasn’t out of control either. A four time wdc doesn’t do that by mistake.

[steveaki13]

"Fair play"? The sport is "auto racing" on a global scale, not bumper cars at your local fair; nor figure eights at your local short track on Saturday nights. :(

'Didn't work? I could have sworn I saw his wing contact Lewis' right rear and Lewis pitting for replacement...what do I know? :rolleyes:

It doesn't take two corrections to stop a step-out. (I didn't see Vettel sideways in the in-car; he just jogged the wheel to the left twice while accelerating)

I didn't give an opinion, just an observation. I couldn't care less who wins, I was only a fan of my screennamesake, none since. :)

I have never agreed that motorsport is non contact. You run the risk if you do make contact but its your risk to take. I assume you have heard the phrase fair play used in the way I did rather than fair play on track?

It didnt work because Vettel needed to stop Lewis and still win the race. That is quite hard to make work and that is why I dont think he did it on purpose. Thus it didn't work. ;)

I have never driven an F1 car and so couldn't comment on how Vettel should control an F1 car coming off a kerb.

[jimclark]

(A) I have never agreed that motorsport is non contact. (B) You run the risk if you do make contact but its your risk to take. (C) I assume you have heard the phrase fair play used in the way I did rather than fair play on track?

(D) It didnt work because Vettel needed to stop Lewis and still win the race. That is quite hard to make work and that is why I dont think he did it on purpose. Thus it didn't work. ;)

(E) I have never driven an F1 car and so couldn't comment on how Vettel should control an F1 car coming off a kerb.
(A) 'Never said you did.
(B) Yes, accidental contact, not intentional.
(C) No I sure haven't. I only know one kind.
(D) It did work, he made contact and cut his tire. If Vettel won and Ham finished lower than 5th (iirc) the championship was still open. I'm not going to figure other permutations.
(E) I haven't either but have raced. 'Not important, as being a fan, I learned how things worked long before I ever drove a car period. The physics remain the same for all rear wheel drive vehicles.

All's well. :)

[N. Jones]

The incident is what it is. They both tried for a position and lost out.

[Starter]

The incident is what it is. They both tried for a position and lost out.
The position was already decided for the moment when front wing to tire contact was made.

[Duncan]

I wouldn't go so far as to say the contact at T3 was deliberate on Vettel's part, but I wouldn't dismiss it as just a "racing incident" either. Hamilton had already completed the pass, there was 0% overlap between the cars going in to T3, and Vettel hit the back of Hamilton, cutting his tire. In almost any other circumstance, considering that it took Hamilton out of contention, that would have merited a penalty for causing a collision.

I don't put the failure to investigate down to any "Ferrari Assistance Institute" bias, but rather there has definitely been a strong theme in the stewarding this season of wanting to force the title fight to the last race of the season at all costs. I find it hard to dismiss this as a factor in today's race.

Either way, season over and well earned WDC for Hamilton.

Just personally, I think it was all over in Baku. The expression on Hamilton's face while he was standing in the pits during the red flag period right after the infamous collision was very telling. He wasn't upset, at all. In fact, he could barely contain his excitement at the fact that he had just got to Vettel and pushed him over the edge. I don't mean this as a criticism - far from it - mind games are an important part of any sport and I personally think Hamilton is much better at it than he's generally given credit for. Vettel's psyche has been more than a little brittle this season and Hamilton has exploited it to his advantage.

[Big Ben]

Yeah he did. I saw it straight away. It was clearly intentionally done. Yet, Stewards bottle it once more. Incredible really, and such an obvious display of bias towards helping Ferrari.

Anyway, it didn't work for the cheating little runt. Never has a driver deserved to lose a championship more than Vettel has this year.

Hamilton I think drove better this year than any other. I don't believe this was the best overall car this year. Even Vettel stated he felt Ferrari was the best car this year.Hamilton made the difference. It just shows how good he is. The only driver in a long time to win with the second best car. Awesome driver! Terrific etiquette and a truly great sportsman.

I believe you when you say you saw it straight away. You'd be more credible if you hadn't. Hitting intentionally another driver with your front wing seems like a very stupid thing to do. Hitting him when you need to finish more than your opponent is even dumber.

It's the same thing every year. The Hamilton against evil F1. FIA is evil. Vettel is evil, replacing Rosberg as Satan in the Hamilton movie. Bottas is Hamilton's sh1tty assistant. Mercedes is not up to the standards (a team that won 4 championships in a raw :laugh:). Of course, the mercedes car was the second best, to the glory of the driver who wins championships despite the 'inferior' equipment.

This is just silly.

[N. Jones]

The position was already decided for the moment when front wing to tire contact was made.

It may have been but they still fought for it. I don't think any one driver was at fault.

[Warriwa]

The move on Hamilton's rear wheel looked deliberate. It was glaringly obvious to me. I am not shocked though, it happens so often throughout the field. I am humble however, and would change my mind if an F1 driver gave a different opinion of the onboard footage. Reducing the front wing size may reduce these occurrences. I did love the old style front wing.

[zako85]

My respect for Hamilton has grown. As some people have said many times, he has driven flawlessly this season (and many previous seasons too), and never put his foot wrong. Vettel, on the other had, has put his foot wrong many times and lost his usual cool as he saw the season unravel for him starting in Azerbaijan. Hamilton had many ups and downs in his career, many challenges, and even painful losses. This must have made him a well-rounded person not only on the race track and but outside of the track as well.

[zako85]

When it comes to putting blame on Vettel for the first lap incidents, unlike others, I think Vettel probably deserved to be punished for trying to run Verstappen off the track in the first turns of the race. Verstappen's car was already completely even with Vettel when their wheels touched, which means that Vettel had no right to follow his "racing line" and try to push the opponent off the track. Moreover, if you look at the cars that followed Vettel at the time of the wheel contact with Verstappen, their racing line was not even the same as Vettel's. So Vettel got out of his way trying to block or push Verstappen. Vettel wasn't following a normal "racing line". It didn't work, and then Vettel is startled that he is losing position not only to Verstappen but also to Hamilton. The cause of the contact with Hamilton was less clear to me. It might have been unintentional.

[The Black Knight]

When it comes to putting blame on Vettel for the first lap incidents, unlike others, I think Vettel probably deserved to be punished for trying to run Verstappen off the track in the first turns of the race. Verstappen's car was already completely even with Vettel when their wheels touched, which means that Vettel had no right to follow his "racing line" and try to push the opponent off the track. Moreover, if you look at the cars that followed Vettel at the time of the wheel contact with Verstappen, their racing line was not even the same as Vettel's. So Vettel got out of his way trying to block or push Verstappen. Vettel wasn't following a normal "racing line". It didn't work, and then Vettel is startled that he is losing position not only to Verstappen but also to Hamilton. The cause of the contact with Hamilton was less clear to me. It might have been unintentional.

I was watching Fox sports earlier and they were inclined to go along the lines of well nobody knows if Vettel hit Hamilton intentionally but what we do know is that he had damage to his front wing from Verstappen turn 2 at that stage and probably realised he would have to pit anyway so only chance of the championship then was to try and take Hamilton out. This is along the reporting lines I want to see. F1 reporters are not great in general, especially when it comes to asking the hard questions that need to be asked. I think this is what he did. Vettel is too good a driver to accidentally hit Hamilton from there. It just clearly shows the lack of punishment from Baku has had the exact affect we thought or lack of affect.

Anyway, he got his comeuppance and lost the championship. It's just a shame we have such a bunch of gutless stewards, confounded by equally gutless Sky commentators (that is if you're stuck with Sky) whom are just as happy to brush everything under the rug. The overtake on Massa being the other obvious choice. Were that another car without the prancing horse on the side I'd imagine a penalty would have been in order.

[journeyman racer]

I didn't watch the race. I wasn't going to bother with the "highlights". But I read TBK and truefan's opinion of what happened with Hamilton/Vettel on the first lap. So since I'm many times more intelligent than both of them put together, and objective in my opinion. I thought I'd have a look myself.

Sure enough. These two "Mensa graduates" exaggerate the intention of Vettel's actions. Like with anything Rosberg did. These two wouldn't be happy unless Vettel was sentenced to death.

I would agree that Vettel is responsible for the contact, as he was behind. But I don't think it was cynical. Just a faint misjudgement.

If these guys were fair dinkum motorsport fans. They, like me, should be annoyed that such minor contact could have such a significant effect. They should be annoyed that the wings are the way the are. It wasn't a big deal.

It should be noted that it appeared that Verstappen passed Vettel in those first two corners by completely driving off the track. I can't say for certain. But it does look that way.