Singapore '17

[Bagwan]

FP2 over , and the Bulls are on top , the silvers behind , and the reds are nowhere to be seen on a track they were predicted to dominate .

I'm sure there likely other things going on , but that's what made me say "holey cow" .

[Duncan]

That was interesting, wasn't it?

Ferrari saying they took a wrong turn somewhere in their setup process. We've seen this before with Merc when they were suddenly un-competitive (like at Monaco). In that case, they weren't able to turn it around in time. I wouldn't count out Ferrari yet by any means, but time is short to figure it out.

More interesting for me is that Merc seem to have shown up much more competitive than anybody expected. I'm thinking that after Monaco they have been doing a lot of work to make sure it didn't happen again. They seem to have shown up ready this time.

[BigWorm]

Stunning Vettel, back on it!

[truefan72]

well qualy was a bit interesting. I thought the RBR's would have taken pole, but all credit to vettel. That was a blinder of a lap.
The mercs did as good as they could on their worst track of the year. So tomorrow will be all about damage control
2 McLarens in the top 10. Well, well well.
What happened to the force India cars?
Hulkenberg continuing to show his quality.

[The Black Knight]

Kudos to Vettel - he is fantastic around this track. Fab lap! Would have loved Max to get pole position. Nip and tuck between Max and Danny. I think Max had the beating of Danny all day and could have had pole but he didn't have a great final lap.

Standard performance from Kimi - makes a mistake when it matters the most. He's actually a disgraceful driver. The gap between him and Vettel is generally more than it is from Hulkenberg to Palmer.

Hamilton probably got the maximum position possible he could. I felt with a stonker he could have maybe got 4th but it wasn't meant to be. Not sure why Bottas is so far off. He's really getting smashed by Hamilton in qualifying since the break.

Delighted for Alonso. Should be a cracking race.

[Tazio]

An entertaining quali. With a chance of rain for the race we may not be in for a complete snore-fest. Well done by Seb. This race needs Max (or Danny boy) to jump Seb off the line!

[Bagwan]

The first corner is going to be fun to watch , as Vettel has a lot to lose , and Max has nothing to lose , with the two seasons they've had .

The Honey Badger might be the recipient of a two position pass as a result .

Add in some rain , and presto , Stroll wins from the back !
Ok , maybe a wee stretch there .

[The Black Knight]

The first corner is going to be fun to watch , as Vettel has a lot to lose , and Max has nothing to lose , with the two seasons they've had .

The Honey Badger might be the recipient of a two position pass as a result .

Add in some rain , and presto , Stroll wins from the back !
Ok , maybe a wee stretch there .

I know I am being cynical but I'd love it if Ricciardo did a banzai move into turn one and took out Vettel. Max would probably get a very well deserved win and Vettel would get exactly what he deserves in the general context of the championship after his antics in Baku. Probably won't happen but I'd be delighted if it did.

[Bagwan]

I know I am being cynical but I'd love it if Ricciardo did a banzai move into turn one and took out Vettel. Max would probably get a very well deserved win and Vettel would get exactly what he deserves in the general context of the championship after his antics in Baku. Probably won't happen but I'd be delighted if it did.

I know you're not keen on Vettel , but why choose Ric as the bomb ?
Would it not more likely be Max ?

Don't you like "shooeys" ?

[journeyman racer]

Riccardo will win. The two in front will get caught up with each other.

[truefan72]

Riccardo will win. The two in front will get caught up with each other.

yeah, my money is on Ricciardo this weekend.
I think max will try to tangle with vettel. sooner than later
My dark money is on Kimi though.
only hoping for a podium for Hamilton
but TBH all the entertainment is gonna come between the Ferrari and RBR cars
Also hoping to see both McLarens score points.

[The Black Knight]

I know you're not keen on Vettel , but why choose Ric as the bomb ?
Would it not more likely be Max ?

Don't you like "shooeys" ?

Well, Danny tends to like taking those calculated risks more than anyone else. It pays off for him more often than not and he is a fantastic overtaker. A move like that may cost him in the first corner. But I can see either RBR doing it honestly. I think after his bad luck and considering the high level to which he has driven this year, especially in qualifying, that Max deserves a win.

[Bagwan]

It's raining , so , that's Lance for the win then .

[Tazio]

Oh spank! ;;)

[truefan72]

madness!!!!
damn, poor Alonso, he was looking at P3

I'm not sure who is to blame, Vettel came across, Verstappen squeezed Kimi a bit
I'd say 50% to each
wow, wow!

[yodasarmpit]

Well done Kimi, ruined what was going to be a cracking race.

[The Black Knight]

Well, Danny tends to like taking those calculated risks more than anyone else. It pays off for him more often than not and he is a fantastic overtaker. A move like that may cost him in the first corner. But I can see either RBR doing it honestly. I think after his bad luck and considering the high level to which he has driven this year, especially in qualifying, that Max deserves a win.

😂oh my I can't believe this prediction has come true. Vettel out! Hahahahahaha Couldn't happen to anyone more deserving

[AndyL]

I didn't bother to make myself a cup of tea before the race, because I figured I'd have plenty of time when the safety car came out. Yep, called that one.

[N4D13]

Gutted for Vettel and McLaren. They really deserved a good result today and it's looking impossible now. That is, unless Alonso decides to crash at an inconvenient time to bring out the SC and have his teammate win the race... :p

[The Black Knight]

I didn't bother to make myself a cup of tea before the race, because I figured I'd have plenty of time when the safety car came out. Yep, called that one.

Nothing's ever better than two smashed Ferrari's.

[AndyL]

I can't believe Alonso is still running after a hit like that.

[N4D13]

Nothing's ever better than two smashed Ferrari's.
Thank you for reminding me why I need to click on "View post" to read your garbage. I'll try not to hit that again by mistake. :-)

[Tazio]

madness!!!!
damn, poor Alonso, he was looking at P3

I'm not sure who is to blame, Vettel came across, Verstappen squeezed Kimi a bit
I'd say 50% to each
wow, wow!Yeah demon start by Fred :angryfire

[AndyL]

BK, I will just point out that Hulkenberg is running 3rd ;)

[andyone]

howly mowly. this has bee one of the strangest starts and championship decider, the only hope for mercedes was ferrari crash, and they did

[longisland]

It's an open goal for Hamilton now.

[truefan72]

OK, so it looks like it really was Vettel's fault for cutting across to block Verstappen. In all fairness, that was the normal thing to do, but there needed to be better communication at the starts from the team to the drivers. He only has himself to blame for ruining his race ,kimi and Verstappen. Madness
I'm really gutted for Alonso. But kudos to mclaren for making such a sturdy car

Can Hulkenberg finally get his podium?
an vandoorne do something special
This opens up the race for everyone

[N. Jones]

Can't believe it's raining.
Also, there goes Vettels chance of winning the title.

[N4D13]

OK, so it looks like it really was Vettel's fault for cutting across to block Verstappen. In all fairness, that was the normal thing to do, but there needed to be better communication at the starts from the team to the drivers. He only has himself to blame for ruining his race ,kimi and Verstappen. Madness
I'm really gutted for Alonso. But kudos to mclaren for making such a sturdy car

Can Hulkenberg finally get his podium?
an vandoorne do something special
This opens up the race for everyone
Things aren't looking rosy for Vandoorne since he's using full wets and no more rain is expected. At least most of the drivers around him are on the same tyres - in the top 8, only Ricciardo and the Mercs are on inters.

[Warriwa]

Didn't Verstappen hit Kimi before Vettel arrived? It happened so quickly, I need a replay in slow motion.

[yodasarmpit]

Didn't Verstappen hit Kimi before Vettel arrived? It happened so quickly, I need a replay in slow motion.

Looked like Kimi hit Verstappen to me, not getting where everyone is blaming Vettel.

[AndyL]

Verstappen could have avoided one Ferrari, but not both coming from either side. Not sure it makes much difference which one he actually hit first.

[Tazio]

The whole left side of Fred's car was crushed. I cvan't believe they even sent him out after his first pit stop.........Kvyat !!

[AndyL]

Looks like Renault have just secured Hulk's record for him by pitting a lap too late.

[N4D13]

Looks like Renault have just secured Hulk's record for him by pitting a lap too late.
McLaren have done the same with Vandoorne. It's ridiculous IMHO, considering that Stoffel was on full wets and so he had to stop either way.

By the way, what are Massa and Vandoorne doing? :-/

[Tazio]

Vandorne and Felipe baby banging wheels behind safety car :laugh:

[truefan72]

stupid mercedes. why did they not pit Hamilton. Once again the engineers, are screwing his race. worry about your own strategy and stop thinking what ricciardo will do. You are already playing with house money
so frustrating!

[AndyL]

By the way, what are Massa and Vandoorne doing? :-/

Massa being rather silly, not the sort of thing you expect from a senior driver.

[truefan72]

Looks like Renault have just secured Hulk's record for him by pitting a lap too late.
Indeed


McLaren have done the same with Vandoorne. It's ridiculous IMHO, considering that Stoffel was on full wets and so he had to stop either way.

By the way, what are Massa and Vandoorne doing? :-/
I know. this is really not brain surgery. and yet they get it wrong, along with Renault and Mercedes

[N4D13]

stupid mercedes. why did they not pit Hamilton. Once again the engineers, are screwing his race. worry about your own strategy and stop thinking what ricciardo will do. You are already playing with house money
so frustrating!
I'm not sure that it was a bad call for them. Giving Ricciardo track position would have forced Lewis to try and overtake him on the track. Having ~10 lap older tyres isn't a great disadvantage when the tyres are as hard as Pirelli's inters.

[N4D13]

By the way, I'm surprised that no one's gone for slicks yet. The track looks quite dry on TV already!

Edit: OK, some parts do look rather damp. :p

[truefan72]

Massa driving like he is the only one on the road. SMH

[Tazio]

Felipe is driving like he is drunk!

[The Black Knight]

BK, I will just point out that Hulkenberg is running 3rd ;)
5th now 😂

[truefan72]

Haas, need to let Kmag by and not waste time behind grosjean

[The Black Knight]

Didn't Verstappen hit Kimi before Vettel arrived? It happened so quickly, I need a replay in slow motion.

Yeah I think he did because Max edged left to avoid Vettel cutting across him which caused him to hit Kimi and then it all started

[The Black Knight]

stupid mercedes. why did they not pit Hamilton. Once again the engineers, are screwing his race. worry about your own strategy and stop thinking what ricciardo will do. You are already playing with house money
so frustrating!

To be fair, I don't think it's much of a disadvantage as the tires were relatively young anyway. Plus with Hamilton at the wheel he can make te difference.

Bottas is so slow by comparison.

[Tazio]

Bottas is so slow by comparison.As slow as Kimi would have been :stareup: :angel:

[AndyL]

To be fair, I don't think it's much of a disadvantage as the tires were relatively young anyway. Plus with Hamilton at the wheel he can make te difference.

Yes he seems to have been able to pull away from Ricciardo easily enough, despite the Red Bull having looked the faster car all weekend. Those used inters haven't really proved a hindrance.

[AndyL]

It's slick time

[truefan72]

To be fair, I don't think it's much of a disadvantage as the tires were relatively young anyway. Plus with Hamilton at the wheel he can make te difference.

Bottas is so slow by comparison.

Yes, Might have to do a mea culpa, i did not think the inters would last this long

[AndyL]

Perfect, I was just ready for another cuppa, thanks Marcus

[truefan72]

bloody erricson. SMH.
What a useless driver

[truefan72]

the more i see that first lap incident, the clearer it is that it was vettel's fault 100%
there was absolutely no need for him to squeeze verstappen.
will Vettel escape punishment yet again?

for me it should be a 5 place grid drop for the next race for causing an avoidable collision that ended the race of 3 other cars

[truefan72]

ok let us see what bottas can do. because he was nowhere before the SC
also. so sad what's going on with hulkenberg's car. he was on for a podium IMO

[truefan72]

also fingers crossed that vandoorne can keep p7
he deserves it :)

[truefan72]

WTF is the mercedes race engineer talking about???
STFU, this is stupid
stop overthinking the strategy and just race.
my gawd these guys are annoying

[AndyL]

WTF is the mercedes race engineer talking about???
STFU, this is stupid

Almost as baffling as McLaren's "hand in the candle" strategy

[yodasarmpit]

the more i see that first lap incident, the clearer it is that it was vettel's fault 100%
there was absolutely no need for him to squeeze verstappen.
will Vettel escape punishment yet again?

for me it should be a 5 place grid drop for the next race for causing an avoidable collision that ended the race of 3 other cars
I've just watched it a couple of times and Kimi hits Max before Vettel is even in play with the squeeze. I totally agree that Max is 100% inoccent, but the initial contact is from Kimi whilst Max is driving in a straight line, I do, however, think that if Kimi hadn't hit him, Vettel would have done so anyway.

[truefan72]

I've just watched it a couple of times and Kimi hits Max before Vettel is even in play with the squeeze. I totally agree that Max is 100% inoccent, but the initial contact is from Kimi whilst Max is driving in a straight line, I do, however, think that if Kimi hadn't hit him, Vettel would have done so anyway.

I see that too, but the hit was because vettel started to squeeze verstappen and he moved ever so slightly to the left while kimi had to move a bit to the right to avoid the pitwall. IMO it was initiated by vettel's aggressive move, but i can see how that might be argued as well. Either way, yes, Verstappen was the innocent party in all that mess...as was Alonso

[truefan72]

good and entertaining race
lol @ Ferrari Twitter

Congrats to Vandoorne too. That Mclaren had the measure of the williams
Congrats to Palmer. He needed that. Sainz did a great job too.

Bottas was a bit disappointing in my book. But Ricciardo is a fast driver and the RBR was stellar in Singapore.
TBH the gap between he and Ricciardo was what was expected between the RBR and mercs. so perhaps Hamilton outdrove his vehicle more so than Bottas underperforming in his.
Some kind of damage control race ;)

[The Black Knight]

A couple donkey awards - biggest one to Vettel for causing first corner crash and then to Ferrari for their stupid twitter post blaming Max in classic Ferrari denial style.

Finally to Ericsson for spinning where no one has spun before. Another driver in the grid not worth his salt. Only in F1 by paying.

Clear driver of the day is Hamilton - sublime throughout and his lead never really looked under threat

[Tazio]

Alright "The Boss"

[The Black Knight]

good and entertaining race
lol @ Ferrari Twitter

Congrats to Vandoorne too. That Mclaren had the measure of the williams
Congrats to Palmer. He needed that. Sainz did a great job too.

Bottas was a bit disappointing in my book. But Ricciardo is a fast driver and the RBR was stellar in Singapore.
TBH the gap between he and Ricciardo was what was expected between the RBR and mercs. so perhaps Hamilton outdrove his vehicle more so than Bottas underperforming in his.
Some kind of damage control race ;)

TBF I think Hamilton's driving the best he ever has. Really regard this as one of his best ever seasons. I still think Ferrari have the best overall car, just Hamilton's out driving his car.

[truefan72]

lol why does Eddie Jordan sound like Rick from Rick & Morty
"Singapoooore, Singapooore" lol

[longisland]

Driver of the day goes to Palmer. Albeit too little too late. Donkey goes to Ferrari. they planned to cover Verstappen but backfired. 4/10 for the race. The rain brought some challenges but didn't improve the racing. The race was processional til the end other than the first lap carnage.

[truefan72]

TBF I think Hamilton's driving the best he ever has. Really regard this as one of his best ever seasons. I still think Ferrari have the best overall car, just Hamilton's out driving his car.

I think both cars are just about equally matched with a slight edge to ferrari initially that is now turning into a slight edge to Mercedes.
The difference is down to, yes, Hamilton outdriving the car, Bottas usually doing the job when needed in Baku and Austria
But mostly, the fact that Mercedes has not instituted team orders, and more importantly that they have not treated the 2nd car as insignificant.
Kimi has been the beneficiary of some lousy strategy, poor cars and team orders that have hampered his and Ferrari's ambitions in general.
That, ultimately is why Mercedes are this far ahead in the WCC

[Warriwa]

Ricco and Bottas had problems apparently. Lewis will never get less challengers for a race win ever again. His drive was faultless, one hand on the trophy.

[The Black Knight]

I think both cars are just about equally matched with a slight edge to ferrari initially that is now turning into a slight edge to Mercedes.
The difference is down to, yes, Hamilton outdriving the car, Bottas usually doing the job when needed in Baku and Austria
But mostly, the fact that Mercedes has not instituted team orders, and more importantly that they have not treated the 2nd car as insignificant.
Kimi has been the beneficiary of some lousy strategy, poor cars and team orders that have hampered his and Ferrari's ambitions in general.
That, ultimately is why Mercedes are this far ahead in the WCC

I still think that Ferrari have the better overall package, I just don't think that they have capitalised on it enough. Even if you look at Belgium, I felt they could have won that race and I think had Vettel gotten ahead of Hamilton that he would have pulled away. Italy they didn't capitalise on what they had and went the wrong set up route. Today they screwed themselves. It's making Mercedes look better than they are imo. There isn't a huge amount between both cars but I still think Ferrari have the better car overall. Mercedes one lap race pace is what has got them where they are this season. As I said, I think Lewis is the big differentiator here. Bottas hasn't been anywhere near him since the summer break. He has come back from the break and really stepped it up a gear. He has 7 wins this season now, 3 more and the championship is his really.

[AndyL]

Just watching replays of the start... Hamilton was pretty clever about where he positioned himself to avoid the chaos, both the collision and Vettel's spin.

[The Black Knight]

"The Stewards consider that no driver was found to have been wholly or predominantly to blame for the incident and will therefore take no further action."

No surprise that they came to this conclusion with Vettel and Ferrari involved.

FIA=Ferrari International Assistance!

[onemanband]

I think anyone who says that Vettel is 100% responsible for the crash should watch all 3 onboards and the offboard cameras again shot by shot.

My view of the accident:

Kimi has a brilliant start, goes into the inside of Max. Seb has a bad start, starts pulling to the inside at increasing angles. Max starts moving inside at the same time as Seb, leaving lots of room on his right. Max therefore kind of misses Kimi, or misjudges the speed difference (as he weaves a bit when Kimi arrives next to him). By that time Seb has closed Max completely down (using all the room available to him) and Max has no room to get further away from Kimi and catches his rear right tire. What I mean is that Max DID NOT go left to avoid contact with Seb as the distance to Seb was bigger than the distance to Kimi. I have seen some people saying that Kimi was closing down on Max but looking at his onboard then it is the opposite.

If you analyse every move by itself then all of them are completely legit. Max pushing Kimi would be 100% fine without Seb pushing Max and vice-versa.
Overall i think 3 completely legit moves but when executed at the same time ended very unfortunately.

[driveace]

Its a long race You are set in a Red car that showed its pace the day before .You don't get off the line as well as you should ,there is 61 laps to go ,its raining WHY be hair brained and squeeze Max and take your team mate out ? Selfish !!! You reap what you sow !

[The Black Knight]

I think anyone who says that Vettel is 100% responsible for the crash should watch all 3 onboards and the offboard cameras again shot by shot.

My view of the accident:

Kimi has a brilliant start, goes into the inside of Max. Seb has a bad start, starts pulling to the inside at increasing angles. Max starts moving inside at the same time as Seb, leaving lots of room on his right. Max therefore kind of misses Kimi, or misjudges the speed difference (as he weaves a bit when Kimi arrives next to him). By that time Seb has closed Max completely down (using all the room available to him) and Max has no room to get further away from Kimi and catches his rear right tire. What I mean is that Max DID NOT go left to avoid contact with Seb as the distance to Seb was bigger than the distance to Kimi. I have seen some people saying that Kimi was closing down on Max but looking at his onboard then it is the opposite.

If you analyse every move by itself then all of them are completely legit. Max pushing Kimi would be 100% fine without Seb pushing Max and vice-versa.
Overall i think 3 completely legit moves but when executed at the same time ended very unfortunately.

The point here is what could either Kimi or Max have done differently to avoid a collision? Answer - absolutely nothing! Max's jink left coincides with just after Vettel's first move left. But neither Max's moves or Kimi's initiated the crash. It is all caused by Vettel needlessly cutting across the track.

Vettel was to blame but, in this case, I don't believe there was any intent. I don't believe he should be punished further simply because of that. But he was still at fault. Twas a stupid thing to do and with such a long race to go - complete insanity!

[Duncan]

A couple donkey awards - biggest one to Vettel for causing first corner crash and then to Ferrari for their stupid twitter post blaming Max in classic Ferrari denial style.

Finally to Ericsson for spinning where no one has spun before. Another driver in the grid not worth his salt. Only in F1 by paying.

Clear driver of the day is Hamilton - sublime throughout and his lead never really looked under threat

Yes - Hamilton was very impressive. Despite driving a car which can't compete with the RBR on this track in the dry, given a damp track he was just driving away from both Ricciardo and Bottas.

[AndyL]

For my driver of the day, I'm going to nominate Nico Hulkenberg. He had a damn good try at avoiding that ignominious record. Got into 3rd place and at that stage of the race, he was more than a second a lap faster than anyone else on wets, and also faster than all the inter runners bar Hamilton and Ricciardo. If not for the strategy error and the unreliability, I think he might have held on to that podium position.

[onemanband]

The point here is what could either Kimi or Max have done differently to avoid a collision? Answer - absolutely nothing! Max's jink left coincides with just after Vettel's first move left. But neither Max's moves or Kimi's initiated the crash. It is all caused by Vettel needlessly cutting across the track.

Vettel was to blame but, in this case, I don't believe there was any intent. I don't believe he should be punished further simply because of that. But he was still at fault. Twas a stupid thing to do and with such a long race to go - complete insanity!

Yes, I agree that at the point of the accident, there was no reasonable way out for Max. But on the other side, my whole point was that He wasnt in that position because he was forced there by Vettel "pushing" him, but put himself in that position with the intent to "push" Kimi. So if one was to say Vettel's "push" was unnecessary, then so was Verstappen's. If you look it like that then Vettel used all the room available to him, as is fair but Verstappen also needed that same room to escape the bad position he had put himself in before he was aware of Vettel's move. And I think it would require too much of a driver to read that kind of situation in the split second that was available (if Vettel even saw Kimi there).

[truefan72]

"The Stewards consider that no driver was found to have been wholly or predominantly to blame for the incident and will therefore take no further action."

No surprise that they came to this conclusion with Vettel and Ferrari involved.

FIA=Ferrari International Assistance!

its is so sad that I am not surprised by the FIA's action. It really is a somewhat biased system.
If it was anyone but the Ferrari driver they would be tripping over themselves to hand out a penalty for unnecessary and dangerous driving.
At the very least penalty points.
This was not even close to a "racing incident"
It was very clear that vettel initiated the calamity by blindly and foolishly swerving to the left. His move made no sense whatsover and ended up causing his retirement and 3 other cars.
All because he made a slow start and desperately tried to win the race on lap 1 in damp conditions/ SMH
I feel bad for Vestappen, kimi and especially Alonso who made an incredible start.
oh well. On to Malaysia

[onemanband]

its is so sad that I am not surprised by the FIA's action. It really is a somewhat biased system.
If it was anyone but the Ferrari driver they would be tripping over themselves to hand out a penalty for unnecessary and dangerous driving.
At the very least penalty points.
This was not even close to a "racing incident"
It was very clear that vettel initiated the calamity by blindly and foolishly swerving to the left. His move made no sense whatsover and ended up causing his retirement and 3 other cars.
All because he made a slow start and desperately tried to win the race on lap 1 in damp conditions/ SMH
I feel bad for Vestappen, kimi and especially Alonso who made an incredible start.
oh well. On to Malaysia

Even if you could blame that 100% on Vettel, that was nowhere near worthy of a penalty. Nothing to do with bias or anything else.

[Tazio]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDu4UAh6HVk&feature=youtu.be&t=24

Pretty compelling evidence that Seb orchestrated the accident. He probably never saw Kimi!

[onemanband]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDu4UAh6HVk&feature=youtu.be&t=24

Pretty compelling evidence that Seb orchestrated the accident. He probably never saw Kimi!

Interesting. I think it completely confirms what i was saying. Verstappen was interlocking wheels with Kimi way before he was getting ran out of room by Vettel.
It's quite funny to diss Seb for doing the same thing to Max that Max was doing to Kimi, is it not?

[denkimi]

the only one who could have avoided the accident was verstappen. even though you can't put the blame on him, he chose not to brake but crash into raikkonen.

it's every time the same story. max doesn't really causes an accident, but he's always involved.
he will have to learn to assess when to back off if he wants to win more races.

[N4D13]

the only one who could have avoided the accident was verstappen. even though you can't put the blame on him, he chose not to brake but crash into raikkonen.

it's every time the same story. max doesn't really causes an accident, but he's always involved.
he will have to learn to assess when to back off if he wants to win more races.
I'm sure braking in the middle of a straight when everyone else is pushing flat out is the way to avoid accidents. :p

If anyone is to blame here, is Vettel - after all, he's the one who squeezed Max into a non-existent gap. But I would actually put it down as a racing incident: driving towards another driver to cut him off is the kind of maneuver that we're used to seeing all the time in starts, only that in this particular instance Sebastian hasn't realized that Kimi was there. It was a sliver of bad judgment and a lot of bad luck.

[denkimi]

I'm sure braking in the middle of a straight when everyone else is pushing flat out is the way to avoid accidents. :p

If anyone is to blame here, is Vettel - after all, he's the one who squeezed Max into a non-existent gap. But I would actually put it down as a racing incident: driving towards another driver to cut him off is the kind of maneuver that we're used to seeing all the time in starts, only that in this particular instance Sebastian hasn't realized that Kimi was there. It was a sliver of bad judgment and a lot of bad luck.
slightly letting go of the throttle would have been sufficient. :p

i agree that it is a racing incident and that nobody is really to blame, although vettel initiated it.
but i also believe that a more experienced, less aggressive driver would have avoided it by backing off a little.

[onemanband]

Really interesting how there are so many so different opinions on the incident as if everyone watched a different one. :D

[zako85]

Vettel was to blame but, in this case, I don't believe there was any intent. I don't believe he should be punished further simply because of that. But he was still at fault. Twas a stupid thing to do and with such a long race to go - complete insanity!

The problem with this logic is that Vettel could not see that Verstappen had nowhere to go on the left.

[Zico]

I think some of you blaming Seb would be calling it completely different if Seb was Lewis... and let's not forget how bad visibility can be in the wet and how quickly these things can happen in such instances.

I think the Stewards called it absolutely spot on for a change. 100% Racing incident... blaming any single driver would have been massively wrong.

[yodasarmpit]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDu4UAh6HVk&feature=youtu.be&t=24

Pretty compelling evidence that Seb orchestrated the accident. He probably never saw Kimi!
On what planet was that not Kimi hitting Max?

[Tazio]

On what planet was that not Kimi hitting Max?For starters I did not say Seb initiated contact. By "orchestrating" the accident I was referring to Seb compressing the front three with his chop to the left. It has been ruled a racing incident, which I agree with.

[N. Jones]

Max had room to go straight. He was trying to cut off Kimi after Max's bad start and hit him instead.

[EightGear]

Max had room to go straight. He was trying to cut off Kimi after Max's bad start and hit him instead.No, Max was trying to avoid Vettel coming to the left like a torpedo.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170918/08bfba10791de085d03f256eef746882.gif

[onemanband]

No, Max was trying to avoid Vettel coming to the left like a torpedo.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170918/08bfba10791de085d03f256eef746882.gif

If you say he avoided Vettel by driving into Kimi then you make him sound stupid which i believe he isn't. Plus he went close enough to Kimi to interlock wheels with him when Vettel was still quite a considerable distance away from him. So let's imagine if Max had stayed about 20 cms to his right, then Vettel, focusing on Max in his mirror would have:
A: Seen him and pulled back to the right - no accident

B: Not seen him and had contact with him - same consequence but 100% fault on Seb and possibly 10 places grid penalty for the next race.

[journeyman racer]

Bro. No one can seriously blame Verstappen for that. Both Ferrari's put him in a vulnerable position.

That start was TBK wet dream come true.

[onemanband]

I don't blame Verstappen at all. I was just pointing out his position in the incident - one that he put himself in by going too close to Kimi, not one that he was put in by Ferraris.
If you analyze both moves by Vettel and Verstappen separately then they are both completely fine and standard for a race start, but neither of them knew what the other was doing/about to do so it ended with disaster.

[yodasarmpit]

No, Max was trying to avoid Vettel coming to the left like a torpedo.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170918/08bfba10791de085d03f256eef746882.gif
I must admit, after seeing this video from the overhead angle, I have to change my mind and suggest Kimi was not at fault. I would also suggest Vettel was not to blame, but probalbly triggered Max to move over - actually looked like Max clipped Kimi.

[jakebarrell]

It was a thrilling race to watch! Good Job Hamilton!

[The Black Knight]

No, Max was trying to avoid Vettel coming to the left like a torpedo.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170918/08bfba10791de085d03f256eef746882.gif

Precisely. It's never more obvious than in that clip. This is a clear case of overthinking on the part of some posters. Yes, Verstappen veered left but only in response to Vettel shooting across like a lunatic. Mark Weber summed it up when he replied to Ferrari's post on twitter where they blamed Verstappen by stating "Said the Bloke that's never driven a go-kart". I can only assume that's the same for posters here.

I also agree with him at being irritated for the guys having to have even visited the Stewards


Though the stewards eventually cleared all three men of blame, Webber was angry the drivers even needed to give an account of themselves after the race.

"It's a joke. It's done. Seb's leaving here in pieces. Ferrari's got no points. Max's has got no points. All of them have been wiped out.

"I just get frustrated is because we've had a car race, we've left the track, these boys are in the barriers, they're massively frustrated -- they're burning inside, these boys. Then they've got to sit and listen to some guy say 'well, you know, I've got a slo-mo, we've gotta do this, we've gotta do this', it's not real."

[journeyman racer]

Mark Webber should become the steward. But he's too much of a flaccid penis to put his reputation on the line. Much easier to have a pop at the stewards.

[Starter]

I must admit, after seeing this video from the overhead angle, I have to change my mind and suggest Kimi was not at fault. I would also suggest Vettel was not to blame, but probalbly triggered Max to move over - actually looked like Max clipped Kimi.
The video is very clear. Kimi was in no way at fault. Max bears at least 40% of the fault because Kimi was clearly ahead of him when contact occurred. Seb gets the remaining 60% because of his over aggressive and needless move that far to his left. I wonder if Ferrari are having a private word or two with him.

[Bagwan]

Max didn't hit Sebastian .
Therefore , Seb's move across to block Max , although abrupt , should be seen as legal .
Kimi was on a scorching start , having nailed the lights , and slid up past Max , who was starting to react to Vettel's move .
The moment Max could have backed out was already gone because he only seemed to notice that Kimi , having made such a fantastic start , was where he was planning to go to try to out brake the lead Ferrari into turn one .

In a way , Kimi is the culprit here , for having gotten in the way of the the other two . The nerve !
Or , Max did it because he could have backed out ........like he never does !
Or , Seb is a swerving swine and wrecked everything for everyone on earth with that move .

Myself , I think the stewards got it right on this one .

[truefan72]

The video is very clear. Kimi was in no way at fault. Max bears at least 40% of the fault because Kimi was clearly ahead of him when contact occurred. Seb gets the remaining 60% because of his over aggressive and needless move that far to his left. I wonder if Ferrari are having a private word or two with him.

yup, upon further review i'd apportion blame as such
Kimi - none
Max - 28%
Vettel 72%

[N. Jones]

No, Max was trying to avoid Vettel coming to the left like a torpedo.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170918/08bfba10791de085d03f256eef746882.gif

You are correct. I looked at it again and the Ferrari's squeezed him.

[yodasarmpit]

yup, upon further review i'd apportion blame as such
Kimi - none
Max - 28%
Vettel 72%

I was convinced Kimi was to blame until seeing the overhead view, now I'm sharing it between Max and Seb.

[The Black Knight]

On the overall I think most people agree that Vettel was mainly at fault. Hamilton's come out and said he thought Vettel was unsighted in the crash and that is probably what caused the crash. I'd probably agree with that and, as I said, I don't believe there was any ill intent on his part on this occasion,even if swerving across the track like that in those conditions is just a recipe for a big bang.

The point is that it was a racing incident regardless of where you apportion blame. A racing incident doesn't have to be 50/50 or 33/33/33 as in this case. It's one of those things that happen given the day and conditions. The stewards got it right in not dispensing further punishment.

[Warriwa]

Pole sitters who get bad starts always move across. I am fascinated and enjoy the differences in everyone's opinion of this incident. I agree with the stewards decision a racing incident. I apportion a greater percentage of blame onto Max. Kimi held his line. Max initiated all of the contact when he turned into Kimi. As I see it, he had an opportunity to back out of it and chose not to, or, his situational awareness was poor because he failed to look in his mirrors. Once again, Max was in a position where contact was made with other drivers. It keeps happening, it seems only a few of us tend to notice.

[Bagwan]

In my view , the stewards were correct in their assessment , that nobody was solely to blame .

However , that's only the dry facts taken into consideration .
It doesn't consider the choices they made , relative to the situations each driver faced .
Obviously , they all went out , but who made logical choices ?

Max knew Vettel had his main title rival in 5th place , with his team-mate just ahead , holding him back , so should logically be a little careful about having Max likely wanting that first corner to be his .
And , he also wouldn't have imagined that Kimi would get such a stormer of a take off , thus , was startled when he saw him there .

Max , in the moments before the start , would have figured Seb would back out , if he went in hard .
That's logical , but he forgot about the Finn .
So , small "stupid points" for him , but then , he had nothing to lose .

For Kimi , he shouldn't have moved right at all , but I'm sure , from the look of it , that he thought he was through , and on for taking the first corner , himself .
Small , but significant misjudgment , so small "stupid points" for him , too .


But , the colossal failure on the big picture side , and huge "stupid points" haul was for Mr. Vettel , who even prompted the whole of the Italian press to burn the reds for not getting that they had to have those points at that track .
The red mist we have seen in the past clouded the season vision for Seb and he lost the plot entirely .

Though he didn't technically do anything wrong , he could have stayed a little wider and may have watched Max and Kimi take each other out . It might have taken perhaps a meter less swerve .
That meter just burned a lot of any championship hope out of his and his team's year .

Two guys with nothing to lose , wanting to win , and another with all to lose , going in just as hard .


Wait now .
Add some "stupid points" to both Kimi and Max , especially , because they both should have known that Seb is like this , getting a little misty when the pressure is really on .

[Zico]

Pole sitters who get bad starts always move across. I am fascinated and enjoy the differences in everyone's opinion of this incident. I agree with the stewards decision a racing incident. I apportion a greater percentage of blame onto Max. Kimi held his line. Max initiated all of the contact when he turned into Kimi. As I see it, he had an opportunity to back out of it and chose not to, or, his situational awareness was poor because he failed to look in his mirrors. Once again, Max was in a position where contact was made with other drivers. It keeps happening, it seems only a few of us tend to notice.


Watch it again... Kimi did in fact alter his line... just as Max stopped moving towards (or at very least reduced his vector towards) Kimi.

Max is 0% at fault here.

[Duncan]

Whichever way you apportion blame for the collision (and I really can't see how Max is culpable), it was just a boneheaded move by Vettel.

His one goal for the weekend was to stay in front of Hamilton and try to exploit the fleeting advantage that the Ferrari had at that track to retake the championship lead. And off the line he decides to slice across the track to try to cut off Max, who doesn't even figure in the championship. Even if he hadn't ended up wrecking several cars, he'd still have been off line for T1, ceding an advantage to Hamilton, who like Alonso stayed over as far left as possible. I don't get it. What was that plan here?

[The Black Knight]

Pole sitters who get bad starts always move across. I am fascinated and enjoy the differences in everyone's opinion of this incident. I agree with the stewards decision a racing incident. I apportion a greater percentage of blame onto Max. Kimi held his line. Max initiated all of the contact when he turned into Kimi. As I see it, he had an opportunity to back out of it and chose not to, or, his situational awareness was poor because he failed to look in his mirrors. Once again, Max was in a position where contact was made with other drivers. It keeps happening, it seems only a few of us tend to notice.

Pole sitters do that some times but it's always a risky manoeuvre. Why Seb did that when at most he would lose a position or two in the first corner is beyond me. He only had to stay ahead of Hamilton, he had the car to win even if he lost a position. And that he did it in those conditions even makes it more inexplicable.

People analysing this here are all failing to notice that Max only begins moving left towards Kimi in response to Vettels sharp cut across the track. He didn't move left before Vettel did. All of this was instigated by Vettel. He would be leading the championship by over 15 points now had he not had such a brain fart moment.

[The Black Knight]

So it appears those in the know notice the favouritism afforded towards Ferrari and Vettel - further backs up why Vettel received no post race punishment after Baku.



Speaking to Motorsport-Magazin.com before the stewards deemed no driver ‘predominantly to blame’, Verstappen Snr. predicted Vettel would escape punishment so as not to affect the championship battle further.

He said. "Maybe it's a political excuse because Vettel cannot allow anything.

"If they give a real punishment, the championship will be over. That's why I do not think there's anything there."


Anyway, I still think the Stewards got it right on this occasion for once.

[Big Ben]

I wouldn't say that the Dutch is 100% blameless. He could have avoided Kimi but then he's a racer :rolleyes:. Other drivers might have avoided the accident. This one didn't and he often doesn't. I seems to be a very talented moron. According to my made up on the sport calculations it's like Vettel 80%, Verstappen 20%. It's funny how some point at the fact that Kimi might have turned 2cm to the right, as cause of the accident :laugh:.

[Starter]

I wouldn't say that the Dutch is 100% blameless. He could have avoided Kimi but then he's a racer :rolleyes:. Other drivers might have avoided the accident. This one didn't and he often doesn't. I seems to be a very talented moron. According to my made up on the sport calculations it's like Vettel 80%, Verstappen 20%. It's funny how some point at the fact that Kimi might have turned 2cm to the right, as cause of the accident :laugh:.
The only way he could have avoided hitting Kimi would have been to have an even bigger crash with Vettel. That or slow dramatically and get hit from behind. And the decision had to be made in a fraction of a second - unlike those posting here who have had days and many replays to make up their minds. The entire incident was caused by Vettel's banzi move across the track. I've revised my opinion of the cause to 99% Vettel.

[zako85]

I don't care how many percent of unwashed masses still believe that Vettel was at fault. Vettel might have driven aggressively, but he pretty much had no way to see that Verstappen had no racing room on his left because Raikkonen happened to have an incredibly good start and filled the space between Verstappen and the wall. This was pretty much a racing incident, and trying to seek the guilty party in it, simply confirms you as an incredibly stuck up fanboy or a hater (of whoever).

[Starter]

I don't care how many percent of unwashed masses still believe that Vettel was at fault. Vettel might have driven aggressively, but he pretty much had no way to see that Verstappen had no racing room on his left because Raikkonen happened to have an incredibly good start and filled the space between Verstappen and the wall. This was pretty much a racing incident, and trying to seek the guilty party in it, simply confirms you as an incredibly stuck up fanboy or a hater (of whoever).
Be nice now. We're all friends here.
First, I'm not a "fanboy"or a hater of anyone. No one on the current grid is a particular favorite of mine. I do probably have more experience than most on the subject, having testified in front of stewards a time or two.

[Bagwan]

Be nice now. We're all friends here.
First, I'm not a "fanboy"or a hater of anyone. No one on the current grid is a particular favorite of mine. I do probably have more experience than most on the subject, having testified in front of stewards a time or two.

You can see that Verstappen never got beside Vettel , because he would have hit him careening off Kimi .
He was closing the door as Max got there .
Had Kimi not been there , Max might have made it inside for that first corner .

The stewards called it as nobody to blame .

[Firstgear]

I think we're getting stuck on the use of the word 'blame' or 'fault' which both imply guilt.

If we asked "Who set all of this in motion?", instead of "Who's at fault, or Who's to blame?", I think the clear answer would be Vettel. If we accept that it was a racing incident, we can say Vettel set it all in motion, without saying Vetttel is guilty.

[Franky]

If we asked "Who set all of this in motion?"

The answer would be Kimi.

This thread is quite amusing.

[The Black Knight]

I have yet to see anyone from the F1 fraternity push blame of Verstappen on this one.

Ferrari aside, Anyone have a link to a team boss, driver (current/former) that blames Max for this incident?

[driveace]

As I saw it Vettel was aggressive in his move left .Kimi had a brilliant start,and although Max was the "Jam in the Sandwich" I feel that Max could see he was being squeezed and backed out,Kimi veers right and catches Max .
To my view Max was off the gas ,and both Red cars squeezed him out .
His father Jos ,knew the score too ,and Jos has been there ,whereas many on here including myself have not

[Duncan]

...but he pretty much had no way to see that Verstappen had no racing room on his left because Raikkonen happened to have an incredibly good start and filled the space between Verstappen and the wall...

That's exactly why it was such a boneheaded move by Vettel.

1. He was trying to make an aggressive move on somebody that was not important in the championship
2. His move was pretty much guaranteed to result in the outcome we saw if there was somebody inside of Max. Who Vettel necessarily wouldn't be able to see.
3. Cars being where Kimi was is the sort of thing that happens at the start of races all the time.

[The Black Knight]

As I saw it Vettel was aggressive in his move left .Kimi had a brilliant start,and although Max was the "Jam in the Sandwich" I feel that Max could see he was being squeezed and backed out,Kimi veers right and catches Max .
To my view Max was off the gas ,and both Red cars squeezed him out .
His father Jos ,knew the score too ,and Jos has been there ,whereas many on here including myself have not

And Villeneuve

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/131920/villeneuve-vettel-brought-crash-on-himself

[AndyL]

That's exactly why it was such a boneheaded move by Vettel.

1. He was trying to make an aggressive move on somebody that was not important in the championship

Another rush of blood to the head for Vettel. They've cost him 30+ points this season, and now he's 28 points behind in the chamionship.

[airshifter]

Vettel punked himself on this one. Though I don't think he really did anything that deserved penalty by the regs, the severe chop had Max worrying about him so much that he didn't pay much attention to Kimi until it was too late. In the end I'd say racing incident, but not a smart move when it comes to title points. And for once, I can't say I can reasonably think Max could have done anything much better. Kimi came alongside so quick he had very little time to react when the reds starting making that RB sandwich.

Kimi, Alonso, and the others that had to avoid the chaos and might have lost track position were the ones that paid a price along with Vettel and Max. Absolute blinder of a start by Kimi, I think he may have actually beaten Seb to the first turn.

Considering the track and the lack of passing opportunity, at least some decent on track action after the first turn crappola. Shame for Seb, he is a beast at this track and had no reason to toss away points after the poor qually by Lewis.

[The Black Knight]

As slow as Kimi would have been :stareup: :angel:

I'd be pretty certain that, despite his great start last weekend, Kimi would probably have spun off somewhere had Vettel not had his brainfart. He certainly wouldn't have won.

Mind you, that's no surprise, considering he's, embarrassingly, the only driver in the top 3 teams to not have won a race in years.

[Tazio]

I'd be pretty certain that, despite his great start last weekend, Kimi would probably have spun off somewhere had Vettel not had his brainfart. He certainly wouldn't have won.

Mind you, that's no surprise, considering he's, embarrassingly, the only driver in the top 3 teams to not have won a race in years.I don't have an ax to grind with Kimi, but he has barely half the points of Vettel. That is as bad as he matched up against Fred at Ferrari. He's a good driver, but let's face it, he's been an "also ran" for a few years now.

[The Black Knight]

I don't have an ax to grind with Kimi, but he has barely half the points of Vettel. That is as bad as he matched up against Fred at Ferrari. He's a good driver, but let's face it, he's been an "also ran" for a few years now.

Agreed. It may seem as though I may have an axe to grind with Kimi at times but that's not the case. I just think that after 4 years without a victory in the cars he has had and, especially given the relative successes of his teammates throughout, it's about time people stopped considering him as a top tier driver. He's not! Maybe back in the day he was but, now, he certainly isn't.

[driveace]

Maybe his sabbatical from F1 when he went rallying has harmed his F1 career
Vettel obviously does not see him as a threat ,that is why he wants him signed up for another year along side him
And maybe Raikkonen knows he is second driver ,and enjoys the money he gets and the ice Cream in Ferrari,s fridge

[Tazio]

:stareup: I'm sure Kimi likes the money, but it doesn't affect his driving performance. He has lost a little. It is amazing that he has hung in as long as he has. As for the ice cream, well Ferrari have a fridge full of Gelato Paradiso, and that is a big bonus :D