View Full Version : The beginning of the end........from WRC!
Brother John
7th May 2007, 15:33
Realistic vieuw for the future of rally I.M.O. :s mokin:
Source, http://www.rallye-info.com/article.asp?sid=0&stid=6085
The French daily paper "Dernières Nouvelles d'Alsace" prints a rather interesting Rally Argentina article in today's 6th May 07 issue. Actually, they didn't find much to write about the slimmed Rally Argentina and made an interview with Kronos' Marc van Daalen instead - with surprising outcome!
Indeed Marc van Daalen finds a few harsh words, that are nearly unprintable, of the state the WRC is in. Not because of what happened in Argentina, the WRC in general. It is not really all new words. Marc van Daalen in his Dernières Nouvelles d'Alsace interview goes into things as the uninteresting and very expensive calendar, how in the still young season we already see people like Gigi Galli, Xavier Pons, Francois Duval on the sidelines.
However then Marc van Daalen comes with the bomb: Daniel Carlsson's season is finished too! According to the French newspaper, Daniel Carlsson has informed van Daalen that his budget is finished.
And the next bomb follows on the trott: It sounds more serious than the bitter words of the moment, when Marc van Daalen announces that Kronos too is to withdraw from the WRC at the end of this season! He follows up with a few more words that are difficult to translate in a diplomatic manner. Basically the WRC has a problem, and with Kronos, M2 teams included, another one down, four left to go - and Kronos will change into the IRC from 2008!
What the article doesn't say, is that Kronos is actually scheduled to have their IRC debut already in Ypres, round3 2007. Here they will run Bernd Casier in a Peugeot 207 S2000. More IRC starts for Bernd Casier in 2007 are possible, while Kronos' aim was to run a Peugeot 2-car team on a full IRC season in 2008. However all these news never confirmed in any way that this meant the end of Kronos' WRC participation in 2008.
Interestingly, the driver currently most rumoured to drive the 2nd Kronos 207 in 2008 is Francois Duval. Duval is currently one of the many drivers suffering the WRC dilemma. He has major support from Skoda Mlada Boleslav as well as Skoda Belgium importers, yet even that was not enough to keep his WRC season on track.
GigiGalliNo1
7th May 2007, 15:55
Nothing new! Love to see Dudu back but unfortunatly in the IRC, better then nothing (no Skodas) will they (Kronos) have those C2's? R versions or what ever they are called? Wait a minute!? There is no Kronos this year in the WRC anyways right?!
Shifter
7th May 2007, 15:57
If the top-teir rally teams break away from the FIA we might be able to get coverage of international rally here in the USA. The WRC feed was too pricey for the SPEEDtv network.
Viktory
7th May 2007, 16:31
No more rounds for Carlsson?!?!!??!! that's a big big disappointment.....
The WRC is not very healthy right now... Some major changes are needed very quick.
Nothing new! Love to see Dudu back but unfortunatly in the IRC, better then nothing (no Skodas) will they (Kronos) have those C2's? R versions or what ever they are called? Wait a minute!? There is no Kronos this year in the WRC anyways right?!
??????????????????????????????????????????
"OMV-Kronos Citroen World Rally Team"
Brother John
7th May 2007, 17:05
Nothing new! Love to see Dudu back but unfortunatly in the IRC, better then nothing (no Skodas) will they (Kronos) have those C2's? R versions or what ever they are called? Wait a minute!? There is no Kronos this year in the WRC anyways right?!
Read my post again!!! Kronos will work with Peugeot 207 S2000!!!!! :dozey:
why does the fact that a PRIVATE TEAM which is SUPPORTED BY PRIVATE FUNDING and not a manufacturer means the beggining of the end of the sport ?? We had plenty of private teams leaving in the past....once the drivers can't find money its a logical concequence.
I think the major problem of the WRC is that we have too many rounds....limit them to 10 and things will start working out again.
why does the fact that a PRIVATE TEAM which is SUPPORTED BY PRIVATE FUNDING and not a manufacturer means the beggining of the end of the sport ?? We had plenty of private teams leaving in the past....once the drivers can't find money its a logical concequence.
Yes, but thesedays they are counted as a 'manufacturer team', because we have so few manufacturers.
I think the major problem of the WRC is that we have too many rounds....limit them to 10 and things will start working out again.
True..
I think the major problem of the WRC is that we have too many rounds....limit them to 10 and things will start working out again.
I guess that 10 is a bit too few... 12 would be a conceivable option.
GigiGalliNo1
7th May 2007, 18:26
Sorry, just a bit dumbed down after argentina guys woops!
10 rounds and a limited test program, like maximum 2 testdays for every event.. How about that :D ?
GigiGalliNo1
7th May 2007, 18:29
Name your TEN events! :D
jidoka
7th May 2007, 18:39
Why are so many countries intersted in hosting the wrc and why are so little manufacturers intersted in competing?
Anyone have a idea??
WRC is interesting to watch, but not interesting to follow :D (hope you can get my point:P)
L5->R5/CR
7th May 2007, 19:00
If the top-teir rally teams break away from the FIA we might be able to get coverage of international rally here in the USA. The WRC feed was too pricey for the SPEEDtv network.
Thats not the complete story.
And there is WRC coverage in the US.
Jarek Z
7th May 2007, 19:43
WRC is interesting to watch, but not interesting to follow :D (hope you can get my point:P)
I modify it to:
"WRC is not interesting to watch and not interesting to follow"
And now I can get your point :)
jso1985
7th May 2007, 20:36
a private team leaves... if that means the end is coming then I guess the end has been trying to come for about 30 years but probably drives a Subaru WRC as it hasn't arrived yet... in 1996 we had only 3 manufacturers like now yet the WRC didn't die those years
a 12-14 rounds calendar would be better though
FrankenSchwinn
7th May 2007, 20:48
anyone here with a subscription?
http://www.dna.fr/20070506/sport/auto/index.html
koko0703
7th May 2007, 21:32
I guess that 10 is a bit too few... 12 would be a conceivable option.
I agree.... 12 events calender would be great:
1. Monte Carlo
2. Sweden
3. Mexico
4. Portugal
5. Acropolis
6. Safari (Yes, Safari)
7. Germany
8. Finland
9. New Zealand
10. Catalunya
11. Ireland
12. Wales GB
would be my choice of 12 rounds....
what about the gravel stages of PERTH? honestly though can anyone see the FIA DECREASING the number of rallies? They've long talked about reducing costs but increasing rally numbers??? The way things are going we may as well just hold the rallies the way F1 is held; 1 stage 2hrs long whoever gets over the distance fastest wins..............with the number of stages dropped furing Argentina this isn't far off
AndyRAC
7th May 2007, 22:40
Anybody who thinks WRC is healthy is living in cloud cuckoo land, anyway, remember back in 1996, only 3 teams, yet it seemed a lot more interesting,why?
I've said on another thread that 12 rounds is what is needed, but who drops out? I don't know, regarding cars, surely WRCars are coming to an end, there are more manufacturers with S2000 cars. I'd like to know why so many countries want to hold a WRC round, yet there are only 3 manufacturers. The coverage is hardly great, is it? Here in Britain I can't remember the last time I saw a report on TV news or in the paper or on radio, most depressing.
Isthmus
7th May 2007, 23:08
If the future of rallying is the changing of the WRC to S2000 cars wich fight every rally with....groupN cars(!), then i stop watching it.
I want that a top sport as the world rally champ, have top cars, with top technology and top rally pace.Otherwise, it will look as a cheap sport like WTCC, with low mean in top sport. But, thats me :)
DonJippo
7th May 2007, 23:16
If the future of rallying is the changing of the WRC to S2000 cars wich fight every rally with....groupN cars(!), then i stop watching it.
Is not going to happen ;)
A.F.F.
7th May 2007, 23:19
If the future of rallying is the changing of the WRC to S2000 cars wich fight every rally with....groupN cars(!), then i stop watching it.
I want that a top sport as the world rally champ, have top cars, with top technology and top rally pace.Otherwise, it will look as a cheap sport like WTCC, with low mean in top sport. But, thats me :)
Exactly.
What I want from rallying is equal machinery which brings out the skills of drivers, fierce fighting on stages with many drivers in cars from many manufacturers. Therefore WRC turning to PWRC vs. S2000 would be a blessing in my eyes.
But, that's just me :)
AndyRAC
7th May 2007, 23:54
To be honest I'm not sure about S2000, but, if that's what the manufacturers are building then go ahead yes. I keep thinking maybe S2500 would be better but not sure. Anything that makes the WRC exciting I'm all for, at the moment it isn't.
Camelopard
8th May 2007, 00:33
I've been to many WRC events over the years, travelling to Perth ( 2000km away from here) and outside of Australia to Europe and New Zealand primarily to watch an event and then staying in the country where the event was held to do further sightseeing, contributing to the local economy by spending money on food, accomodation etc.
However the way things are now I just can't be bothered going to an event just to see the FRM roll over everything. I can't say that I'm that interested in seeing 10 Ford Focus in a row either.
If I'm at work on nightshift I'll follow an event through the web (no video nor sound though), but only because I'm awake anyway.
The first Rally Australia (2000) I went to was the best event, numerous manufacturers, Seat, Hyundai, Ford, Mitsubishi, Peugeot, Subaru, Toyota Australia running a WRC spec car and probably others I've forgotten.
There didn't seem to be this "win at all costs" attitude with money no object from the factories then.
OK, so maybe Ford need to spend more money to be on a par with citroen, however they are in dire straights financially worldwide and I think we are fortunate that they are even still involved. They could have easily gone the way of Mitsubishi who have also been suffering financially. How long will Subaru continue to be involved given their recent record, they pulled out of rallying in Australia when no-one thought they would, there must come a time when head office says "no more".
New entries next year? Suzuki, anyone else?
I lost interest in F1 when ecclestone got so greedy and F1 became entertainment not motorsport, now it seems rallying is going the same way, am I living in the past? probably.................................
smolvar
8th May 2007, 05:03
And there is WRC coverage in the US.
There is....do tell.
I thought only via d/l.
L5->R5/CR
8th May 2007, 05:45
There is....do tell.
I thought only via d/l.
Look around on SpecialStage.com
There is a broadcaster that bought the rights for coverage. They are still working on the packaging, but the rights have been purchased.
The first Rally Australia (2000) I went to was the best event, numerous manufacturers, Seat, Hyundai, Ford, Mitsubishi, Peugeot, Subaru, Toyota Australia running a WRC spec car and probably others I've forgotten.
Was this the same Rally Australia in 2000 that I saw? ;)
the first two days were nothing but "parade laps" where every body was fighting to be the slowest to avoid road sweeping... It didnt make for great viewing to me! (Thankyou FIA for the road position rule change)
Plus Colin and Carlos retiring before lunch on day two didn't help.
The last day was exciting though, and at least the guys in slower cars put on a show (Didier and A.Mcrae especially).
But you are right Cossie16 in that at least there were plenty of cars and drivers out in the forests to watch.
...
I think the major problem of the WRC is that we have too many rounds....limit them to 10 and things will start working out again.
That is no solution for private teams. Gigi, Duval, Carlsson can't drive even 5 or 8 rounds. Less rounds wouldn't help.
What about MT Kronos. Stohl drives all rallies. But they haven't a second driver. What about the manu points? Do they loose the points. Can Stohl score them on his own?
This question I had longer. A team has need 2 drivers they do at least 10 rounds isn't it?
Camelopard
8th May 2007, 08:20
Was this the same Rally Australia in 2000 that I saw? ;)
the first two days were nothing but "parade laps" where every body was fighting to be the slowest to avoid road sweeping... It didnt make for great viewing to me! (Thankyou FIA for the road position rule change)
Plus Colin and Carlos retiring before lunch on day two didn't help.
The last day was exciting though, and at least the guys in slower cars put on a show (Didier and A.Mcrae especially).
But you are right Cossie16 in that at least there were plenty of cars and drivers out in the forests to watch.
I guess I should have clarified what I meant, the number of manufacturers entered. Wasn't the road position stuff another one of Connoly's great ideas? (sarcasm)
7 different types of cars in the first 11 positions, although Makinen's Mitsubishi was later excluded because of a turbocharger infringement.
Brother John
8th May 2007, 10:20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isthmus http://paradise.motorsportforum.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://paradise.motorsportforum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=260552#post260552)
If the future of rallying is the changing of the WRC to S2000 cars wich fight every rally with....groupN cars(!), then i stop watching it.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is not what i mean! WRC need new rules and must change the organisation totally. The F.I.A. works on the wrong way.
Is not going to happen ;)
I know It´s not going to happen Don :s mokin: but put S2000 in WRC with group N and makes of the WRC cars for example, S2500 or S3000 together with GT3... 10 wrc rallys + 3 new rallys in several countrys every year only for drivers points and there wil be a real World Championship again.
Always the same podium, Loeb - Gronholm - Hirvonen don´t look like that! ;)
White Sauron
8th May 2007, 10:32
Was this the same Rally Australia in 2000 that I saw? ;)
the first two days were nothing but "parade laps" where every body was fighting to be the slowest to avoid road sweeping... It didnt make for great viewing to me! (Thankyou FIA for the road position rule change)
.
By the way, why road position isn't so important anymore, as it was in 2000 for example? I mean in that rally Australia even the strongest drivers were afraid of sweeping the road, but nowdays being first on the road isn't any problem for the likes Gronholm, Loeb or maybe even Hirvonen.
Viktory
8th May 2007, 11:24
By the way, why road position isn't so important anymore, as it was in 2000 for example? I mean in that rally Australia even the strongest drivers were afraid of sweeping the road, but nowdays being first on the road isn't any problem for the likes Gronholm, Loeb or maybe even Hirvonen.
nowadays the manufacturers have guys that sweep every km of every stage with brooms, to get the loose stuff out of the way, thus it is not as big of a problem as before, and this is part of the reason of the high costs.
jk :p
It's an interesting point you make though White Sauron
DonJippo
8th May 2007, 11:37
By the way, why road position isn't so important anymore, as it was in 2000 for example? I mean in that rally Australia even the strongest drivers were afraid of sweeping the road, but nowdays being first on the road isn't any problem for the likes Gronholm, Loeb or maybe even Hirvonen.
It is as important as it was in 2000. Today we have more repeated stages and being first in the past meant you were driving first on the road whereas today that's not the case.
Kronos had their nose put out of joint by Citroen and this was well known at the start of the year so am not suprised to see MVD throwing his toys out of the pram and going back to Peugeot. The S2000 207 in an IRC campaign makes more sense for a smaller team like them than a full WRC attack anyway. Witness then winning the 03 ERC with Thiry in the 206WRC.
Kronos had their (...) Witness then winning the 03 ERC with Thiry in the 206WRC.
I had the idea that this Peugeot was from Bozian.
I had the idea that this Peugeot was from Bozian.
Nope Kronos. In 04 they moved onto the C2 S1600 with less sucesss.....
Brother John
8th May 2007, 14:50
Van Dalen is the first ho says what a lot of us is thinking! :D :p :
Source http://www.rallye-info.com/forum.asp?sid=0&boardid=1&action=thread&threadid=6542&new=6&page=1
"I read that Marc van Daalen is saying that the WRC is foul, directed by gentlemen who are exaggerated egocentrics""
That is a very mild translation. My translation for
"Éternel optimiste, Van Dalen n'est aujourd'hui pas loin de jeter l'éponge. La faute à « système pourri dirigé par des gens à l'égocentrisme exacerbé. » Selon lui, si les instances fédérales ne prennent pas le taureau par les cornes, la discipline court au « pur suicide. » "
is:
"Always optimistic, now Marc van Dalen isn't far from giving up. The fault is to 'a rotten system controlled by people with an upset egoism' According to him, the federal instances (I don't know what is meant by that, probably FIA, ISC etc.) fail to take initiative. The sport heads to 'pure suicide'"
DonJippo
8th May 2007, 21:09
All this coming from Mr van Dalen who lost his milking cow for this year...why was he so silent last year?
BDunnell
8th May 2007, 21:25
To be honest I'm not sure about S2000, but, if that's what the manufacturers are building then go ahead yes. I keep thinking maybe S2500 would be better but not sure. Anything that makes the WRC exciting I'm all for, at the moment it isn't.
Indeed. Speed and outright performance aren't everything.
As I've said before, my solution is for a return to basic Group A rules, circa 1987. Then, two-wheel-drive and four-wheel-drive cars were able to compete with each other, there was real variety, and a lot of manufacturers, some more competitive than others.
Indeed. Speed and outright performance aren't everything.
As I've said before, my solution is for a return to basic Group A rules, circa 1987. Then, two-wheel-drive and four-wheel-drive cars were able to compete with each other, there was real variety, and a lot of manufacturers, some more competitive than others.
they spoke in tv the other day that current EVO 9 is faster than the Mitsu Tommi did take his first championship with.
cut the b.s.
8th May 2007, 21:47
Indeed. Speed and outright performance aren't everything.
As I've said before, my solution is for a return to basic Group A rules, circa 1987. Then, two-wheel-drive and four-wheel-drive cars were able to compete with each other, there was real variety, and a lot of manufacturers, some more competitive than others.
so we will have Evos and Subs, what else? Sure this would just be the PWRC with a bit more power and noise, not a solution. In 87 the 2wds got results where the Lancias broke or stayed away, even Ragnotti wasnt enough to be able to really trade times with the deltas
BDunnell
8th May 2007, 21:51
It's not a perfect idea, I grant you, but there has to be a way in to the WRC for manufacturers who don't want to spend a lot on developing cars, and the cars have to look interesting again on the stages rather than looking as though they're running on rails.
Group N/PWRC cars are boring, I agree, but to me there has been little more interesting in rallying than underpowered but light front-wheel-drive cars attempting to keep up with four-wheel-drive competitors. The nature of the events has something to do with this, of course.
On reading all the posts in this thread I think the passage of time has diminished some people's memories. 1987 was an awfull year. The world rally car concept was a great thing. It enabled FORD / PEUGEOT / SEAT / TOYOTA/ CITROEN / SKODA to build cars without 4wd production runs. Next time you are in a traffic queue when going to work check out how many 4wd road cars are sharing the queue with you? Cars need to be cheap, how about 2.5l normally aspirated 4 wd or a 2.ol 2 wheel drive "silhoutte" concept?
On reading all the posts in this thread I think the passage of time has diminished some people's memories. 1987 was an awfull year. concept?
agree 100%
BDunnell
8th May 2007, 22:36
On reading all the posts in this thread I think the passage of time has diminished some people's memories. 1987 was an awfull year. The world rally car concept was a great thing. It enabled FORD / PEUGEOT / SEAT / TOYOTA/ CITROEN / SKODA to build cars without 4wd production runs. Next time you are in a traffic queue when going to work check out how many 4wd road cars are sharing the queue with you? Cars need to be cheap, how about 2.5l normally aspirated 4 wd or a 2.ol 2 wheel drive "silhoutte" concept?
And how sustainable has the WRC format proved to be? Not very, in my opinion.
There were some great events in the early years of Group A, not just 1987. And Group A allowed some of the same cars to be used for racing and rallying, such as the Sierra Cosworth and BMW M3, which was extremely affordable.
AndyRAC
8th May 2007, 23:08
The first few years of the WRCar formula was interesting, Impreza WRC97, Escort WRC, Corolla WRC, Cordoba WRC, 206 WRC,etc plus the 2WD entries from Peugeot 306 Maxi, Renault Maxi Megane, Seat Ibiza Evo, Citroen Xsara Kit Car, some interesting battles and not forgetting the Group A Lancer Evo iv. But after a while the technology increased with computers controlling everything, expensive and boring to watch. Personally speaking, if WRC ars could be made even cheaper and more manufacturers built them then fine, but I can't see it happening, I want something more than Group N though. Though I'n starting to think that maybe Production based, with modifications for suspension, gearbox. Really I'm cutching at straws, the WRC is on it's last legs in it's current guise, something needs to be done.
S2000 v WRC v S2500 v Group N+ ???
cut the b.s.
8th May 2007, 23:25
The first few years of the WRCar formula was interesting, Impreza WRC97, Escort WRC, Corolla WRC, Cordoba WRC, 206 WRC,etc plus the 2WD entries from Peugeot 306 Maxi, Renault Maxi Megane, Seat Ibiza Evo, Citroen Xsara Kit Car, some interesting battles and not forgetting the Group A Lancer Evo iv. But after a while the technology increased with computers controlling everything, expensive and boring to watch. Personally speaking, if WRC ars could be made even cheaper and more manufacturers built them then fine, but I can't see it happening, I want something more than Group N though. Though I'n starting to think that maybe Production based, with modifications for suspension, gearbox. Really I'm cutching at straws, the WRC is on it's last legs in it's current guise, something needs to be done.
S2000 v WRC v S2500 v Group N+ ???
spot on, if regs could restrict technology to the late 90s levels, there is a lot of good in WRC regs, just the bosses are turning blind eye to the flaws rather than trying to get things sorted out
A.F.F.
8th May 2007, 23:51
Well, it seem that we can't see the forest out of the trees.
jparker
9th May 2007, 06:32
In the past we had driver's battles. Now, it's all about technology and money. That's wrong
Like said here, the "original" WRC-concept was good, it allowed many manufacturers in. But unfortunately the reg's were loosened year by year and it made the concept much too complicated and expensive.
Now the current teams are against changes to bring the cars back to simpler versions. Why? Because they have created and invested i these high-tech. systems and don't wan't to throw them into dustbin and allow others to become competitive.
The FIA should take full control of the things and make big changes befor it all dies
AndyRAC
9th May 2007, 13:00
So the teams are happy to see an uncompetetive championship die a slow death because of their selfishness. I agree the FIA need to order them to use simpler cars, though they're no better than useless.
Manufacturers always were a problem in motorsport. They are selfish and usual have a tendency to complicate the simple things.
Fórmula 1 is an example, but F1 as a man that look very carefull to the comercial aspect of the bussiness, and can put all over the world a poor spectacle as it was the pinacle of competition and fight on track. F1 is a pinacle of technology, but is far from being the best in emotion that is what interest to the audiences. Manufacturers are in F1, but Berni Ecclestone is the one who decide the path to follow.
WRC had the bad luck of being the poor parent inside FIA, because was the only competition that could had reached the F1 level in terms of visibility. As F1 is the protected competition, the WRC was sent to a lower level. The creation of ISC was a fiasco, because David Richards never had really interest in WRC, the interest was only the money, and the money could be earn outside WRC. This explain why we see so few efforts to promote and develop WRC, in oposite to what Ecclestine made in F1.
The problems of WRC are only two: High costs and low spectacle. very advanced technologies cost a lot of money and didn't increased the show. With so poor spectacle the audiences came down and the manufacturers went away to other disciplines less expensives and more visible.
We need to look back, see what made the golden years of WRC and try to adapt it to the new reallity and new times, but mantaining the essence of rallying. Definitively the present format don't reflect that so it must be changed.
GigiGalliNo1
9th May 2007, 14:17
can i just say its not the end of wrc its the beginning of a bloody bad wrc.... so no end perhaps an end to the amazing last decades of the wrc but the beginning of a un-wanted sport! (though i still want it around!)
alleskids
9th May 2007, 17:33
Daniel Carlsson will only take the startramp in Sardine, and probarly also in Greece and Finland, to avoid kronos from paying a heavy fine to the FIA and being kicked out of the MT championship.
alleskids
9th May 2007, 17:34
double post
BDunnell
10th May 2007, 00:11
The problems of WRC are only two: High costs and low spectacle. very advanced technologies cost a lot of money and didn't increased the show. With so poor spectacle the audiences came down and the manufacturers went away to other disciplines less expensives and more visible.
We need to look back, see what made the golden years of WRC and try to adapt it to the new reallity and new times, but mantaining the essence of rallying. Definitively the present format don't reflect that so it must be changed.
Some would say that international rallying has never been so competitive since the times when people could buy competitive cars (specifically Escorts) cheaply and run them on a relative shoestring. This would be an idea, except for the extent to which manufacturers are seen as crucial to the success of a championship.
Of course (as I suggested earlier) it's better to have more manufacturers than less, but they aren't the be-all-and-end-all. When you have too many, it is inevitable that not all will experience success and that this leads to some pulling out. The history of British Touring Car racing, for those that know it, makes this clear. It becomes unjustifiable for manufacturers who aren't doing well to continue.
Some would say that international rallying has never been so competitive since the times when people could buy competitive cars (specifically Escorts) cheaply and run them on a relative shoestring. This would be an idea, except for the extent to which manufacturers are seen as crucial to the success of a championship.
Of course (as I suggested earlier) it's better to have more manufacturers than less, but they aren't the be-all-and-end-all. When you have too many, it is inevitable that not all will experience success and that this leads to some pulling out. The history of British Touring Car racing, for those that know it, makes this clear. It becomes unjustifiable for manufacturers who aren't doing well to continue.
Manufacturers are not the solution for success. I wrote in my post that sometimes they are a problem. If you look at IRC, a competition that can't be compared to WRC because is new, you see many cars and many drivers. Maybe could be a good ideia to look why IRC as so many cars on the first year.
BDunnell
10th May 2007, 01:17
Manufacturers are not the solution for success. I wrote in my post that sometimes they are a problem. If you look at IRC, a competition that can't be compared to WRC because is new, you see many cars and many drivers. Maybe could be a good ideia to look why IRC as so many cars on the first year.
Sorry, I wasn't saying that you were giving that view. I was agreeing with you.
Sorry, I wasn't saying that you were giving that view. I was agreeing with you.
Sorry, didn't understood your point of view.
But you wrote one thing, if the manufacturers don't have success they go out. If you look at F1 that's not the situation, they are there over the years even without succes, and it proves that a champioship well promoted is always atracting even without winnings. In WRC you had the same situation with Hyunday, Seat and Skoda. If the WRC had more visibility at that time, probbably Seat and Skoda would stayed even without winning.
Nenukknak
10th May 2007, 16:39
The problem with WRC is that it has lost its soul, it's not special anymore. WRC has become sprinting. The sprint has taken over too much, the endurance has become much smaller over the years. The idea behind WRC and what made it great in the past was not just the car, but the sense of adventure, the nightstages etc. That's what made the drivers real heroes, and each rally a true event. There is no sense of adventure anymore, that's what WRC need. Toyota used to mention their individual rallywins in adds in the early nineties. Don't see that happening now.
Also the cars are not that special anymore. Late group 4, group B, now these were cars, looked like road-going cars, but were much faster than anything on the road, except the most expensive sportscars.
Group A made the cars available to a wider public, how cool was it to drive in a WRcar?
WRCcars then, 300bhp around 1200kg, hhmmmm, no big deal in this time when road-going cars' power-output have increasingly gone up. Ok a WRCcar is a tremendous piece of technology, but that doesn't say anything for most people.
WRCcars have become too technical. It's very hard for a driver to make a real difference. Just look at the situation now, Marcus of Sebastien wins depending on who has the best tyres, the best set-up etc. It's all about the car, make a mistake in that area, and you can forget it.
S2000 a good idea? For a while, but in the manufacturers quest for advantage these will quickly become equally if not more expensive than WRC.
And the exposure of WRC is indeed far to less, it's aired on incredible times if at all. And always different timeslots. Nobody but the true fans is going to watch that.
That Subaru documentary on Discovery Channel now that's brilliant. You get all these people that watch discovery channel see the WRC in action, now that's exposure. But the whole ISC experiment has failed miserably.
I criticize, the WRC for what it has become, the FIA needs to do something, but they should have done a long time ago.
grugsticles
10th May 2007, 22:35
Wow, this thread details each and every thought I have had about the WRC in my entire life.
I love rallying to bits, but I find it depressing that the highest level of the sport I love is so damn boring.
The comments on returning to the 90's era are spot on IMO.
I feel that the WRC should take a leave out of the IRC's book and provide a control transmission system that can be used if desired or the manufacturer can develop one using its own design process.
Other components like struts, engine, rear spoiler etc. should all have a control option available. This would make it easier for new manufactures to build a car on the cheap without the need for overwealming testing to get up to speed.
Technology should be limited to Group N levels with the exception for limited modification in suspension geometry, engine and brake packages. There should be a choice of either a 2000cc Turbo (34mm restictor) or ~2500cc NA engine (possibily no restrictor and limited to say 11k) so manufacures can acually benifit from and R and D they do.
Technology like active diff's, water injection, in-cabin adjustable suspension height (aka Ford) should be banned.
The main thing the FIA should bring in is budget restrictions.
Teams should be aloud to spend up to X dollars/pounds/euro's/whatever and that has to pay for absolutly everything. Drivers, testing, cars, worldwide transport... the lot. So team A may have a triple world champ (Loab for example) but would also have to use a significant portion of their budget to pay him while sacrificing expenditure in other areas.
I guess in my opinion that if the cars are made to be more a one make affair with the exception of alterations desired from the manufactures, then we would have a competitive series that is worth watching.
There is an article in Autosport (may 10th) stating there is an important FIA meeting scheduled for tuesday15th may. It is expected that the future of wrc will be debated, meeting to be called Vision 2012 group, presumably because they expect the changes to come into forece in 2012, they are more optimistic than me if they think the current format can cling on until then! Feature was a bit confusing but it is widely thought that 4wd will stay - engines probably dropped to 1800cc turbo with pop off valves - or even 1600cc turbo to reduce torque. Here is the difficult bit - it is expected that WRC cars will be based on existing Group n or s2000 cars that the manufacturers has. Also cars can be tuned up from thi slevel to wrc spec, and then tuned down again by removing various "kit parts" to revert to national or regional championship spec. On the event front it could drop the clover leaf single service park that we all have come to appreciate and love over the past few years........
A.F.F.
10th May 2007, 23:30
The main thing the FIA should bring in is budget restrictions.
Teams should be aloud to spend up to X dollars/pounds/euro's/whatever and that has to pay for absolutly everything. Drivers, testing, cars, worldwide transport... the lot. So team A may have a triple world champ (Loab for example) but would also have to use a significant portion of their budget to pay him while sacrificing expenditure in other areas.
I almost agree. I think the budget should be the maximum same for every manufacturer, but leaving out the driver's salary. It would help enough settle things if every manufacturer had the same financial resources to build up, set up and test a car. One Loeb here or there won't make the difference ;) Just kidding. But drivers should be left out of it. An army doesn't need one man if it will do things right.
There is an article in Autosport (may 10th) stating there is an important FIA meeting scheduled for tuesday15th may. It is expected that the future of wrc will be debated, meeting to be called Vision 2012 group, presumably because they expect the changes to come into forece in 2012, they are more optimistic than me if they think the current format can cling on until then! Feature was a bit confusing but it is widely thought that 4wd will stay - engines probably dropped to 1800cc turbo with pop off valves - or even 1600cc turbo to reduce torque. Here is the difficult bit - it is expected that WRC cars will be based on existing Group n or s2000 cars that the manufacturers has. Also cars can be tuned up from thi slevel to wrc spec, and then tuned down again by removing various "kit parts" to revert to national or regional championship spec. On the event front it could drop the clover leaf single service park that we all have come to appreciate and love over the past few years........
I'm worried. FIA is planning something about engines... as if the problema of WRC was there! That's why we are as we are. For FIA the problemas are not where they really are.
grugsticles
11th May 2007, 08:17
There is an article in Autosport (may 10th) stating there is an important FIA meeting scheduled for tuesday15th may. It is expected that the future of wrc will be debated, meeting to be called Vision 2012 group, presumably because they expect the changes to come into forece in 2012, they are more optimistic than me if they think the current format can cling on until then! Feature was a bit confusing but it is widely thought that 4wd will stay - engines probably dropped to 1800cc turbo with pop off valves - or even 1600cc turbo to reduce torque. Here is the difficult bit - it is expected that WRC cars will be based on existing Group n or s2000 cars that the manufacturers has. Also cars can be tuned up from thi slevel to wrc spec, and then tuned down again by removing various "kit parts" to revert to national or regional championship spec. On the event front it could drop the clover leaf single service park that we all have come to appreciate and love over the past few years........
Interesting.
I say leave the basic format of the engines alone though. 2litre Turbo is fine IMO.
"Kit parts" care to elaborate as to what type of parts that may be? Tranmision components? wheels? aero kits?
I almost agree. I think the budget should be the maximum same for every manufacturer, but leaving out the driver's salary. It would help enough settle things if every manufacturer had the same financial resources to build up, set up and test a car. One Loeb here or there won't make the difference ;) Just kidding. But drivers should be left out of it. An army doesn't need one man if it will do things right.
I guess... I was just trying to come up with a way of narrowing the gap between people like Seb and Marcus to others such as Henning and Gigi. Lets see them on the podium!
A.F.F.
11th May 2007, 09:02
I guess... I was just trying to come up with a way of narrowing the gap between people like Seb and Marcus to others such as Henning and Gigi. Lets see them on the podium!
Don't take me wrong, in principle the idea you gave is brilliant. It just shouldn't consern the drivers because they should have the right for equal machinery despite how good they are. I don't think Loeb should be punished for being the best :)
jonkka
11th May 2007, 11:17
I feel that the WRC should take a leave out of the IRC's book and provide a control transmission system that can be used if desired or the manufacturer can develop one using its own design process.
Other components like struts, engine, rear spoiler etc. should all have a control option available. This would make it easier for new manufactures to build a car on the cheap without the need for overwealming testing to get up to speed.
Huh? How would such concept work? If control component is crap, it would not offer any advantages to new manufacturers and if it would be good, there would be no reason for anyone to design their own. In addition, rally car is not a combination of random bolt-on components.
The main thing the FIA should bring in is budget restrictions.
And how exactly you propose this to be enforced? There are a million ways to circumvent budget caps and none to gap those holes. Rule one of rule making is to make only enforceable rules, otherwise you end up with dead-letter rules.
Viking
11th May 2007, 11:37
More on vision 2012, wrc cars, format and so on:
FIA's Fifteen Crucial Rally Issues
President of the FIA's World Rally Championship Commission (WRCC) Morrie Chandler was present in Rally Norway, and gave an insight into the status quo on world championship issues.
http://www.rallynorway.com/en/news/fiacrucialissues.html
grugsticles
11th May 2007, 12:28
A.F.F: I suppose your right. I guess im just concerned that if team X has a huge budget then they can afford to pay for the best drivers, while the teams with small budgets (but can still afford the pre set budget limit for running their WRC campaing) may only be able to afford unprooven drivers.
It could work both ways I guess :)
jonkka: hmm, going on the assumption that control components ARE not crap, then I dont see how it cant work. Am I missing your point?
A control part may be fine, but if its not and a team elects to develop their own part (strickly within the guidelines that the contol part was designed to) they the deveopment must be part of their yearly budget.
In my eyes, that way the team is taking a gamble and hoping that a specific component will give them the edge in one area of car development while ither areas may suffer.
Its just a thought, nothing more.
As for budget restraints, Im not too sure.
I guess each team would have to elect to spend certainb amounts of money on development, parts, test days etc and get it pre approved before the season.
Obviously my idea is flawed as its only something I thought of today, so it needs work.
Viking: Thanks :)
ShiftingGears
11th May 2007, 13:13
Budget restraints won't work - I see no way for that to be reenforced. As a relative newbie, can someone explain to me the difference between the current regulations and Group A regulations, and how the group A regulations would make the WRC better?
Thanks
AndyRAC
11th May 2007, 13:16
So 2012 is the time the current regs run till, they're hopeful, will thee be any manufacturers left? Changes need to be made sooner rather than later.We want cheaper cars, costs, etc but more manufacturers for an exciting worldwide championship, with great promotion etc. The number of rounds does need to be cut though, I'd rather have 12 rounds with 4 days than 16+ rounds of 2-3 days.
GigiGalliNo1
11th May 2007, 16:46
http://www.ircseries.com
"Abarth, Citroen, Honda, Mitsubishi and Peugeot will compete on the Rally of Turkey, and they will be joined by Volkswagen from the next event - the Ypres Rally in Belgium - onwards"
Manufacturer wise sounds much more interesting already.....tho safari was good, coverage was more or less based on the Abarth team/s /cars and ahhhhhhh some PWRC guys :|
Jarek Z
11th May 2007, 16:54
FIAT Rally is also second round of the European Championship, a series that looks much more healthy after the WRC cars were replaced by Super 2000 category:
http://www.ercrally.com/haberler.asp?id=25
Will L
11th May 2007, 22:40
So 2012 is the time the current regs run till, they're hopeful, will thee be any manufacturers left? Changes need to be made sooner rather than later.We want cheaper cars, costs, etc but more manufacturers for an exciting worldwide championship, with great promotion etc. The number of rounds does need to be cut though, I'd rather have 12 rounds with 4 days than 16+ rounds of 2-3 days.
Best idea I've heard all day. :)
I love the WRC but it is - kind of a shambles compared to what it used to be, 1998, 2002, 2003. ace seasons. If only it could be like that again, with all the manufacturers, drivers, rounds, it would be truly awesome.
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