missing child

[allycat228]

I know that there are a few parents in this forums but I could not imagine
leaving my son who is now 7 let alone 3 in a room by himself, I do feel sorry for these parents, i hope that they find her

[Dave B]

I guess you're referring to this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6629091.stm

Awful story. Let's hope there's a happy ending.

[nicemms]

I agree lets hope the child is returned safely.

I still struggle to believe that someone would leave their 3 year old un-attended in an apartment. Anything could have happened and unfortunately it did.

[Daniel]

Call me suspicious but something doesn't quite sound right about this. Methinks parents but mehopes I'm wrong and the child turns up safe and sound :)

[Zico]

You're the second person Ive heard say this.. I certainly didnt get that feeling when I watched the news.. while iresponsible, they seemed genuine to me..

Very sad indeed.

[CharlieJ]

Those parents left the children unsupervised in the apartment. Apart from the fact that a responsible parent would never leave children alone like that, I believe that it is actually illegal in most, if not all, european countries to leave young children unsupervised. The people to blame for this are the child's parents! I sincerely hope that the child is OK, but they have to accept responsibility.

[Daniel]

You're the second person Ive heard say this.. I certainly didnt get that feeling when I watched the news.. while iresponsible, they seemed genuine to me..

Very sad indeed.
The thing that makes me suspicious is that they seem to go to lengths to say they went back every half hour to "check on the welfare of the child"

To me you either think it's a great idea to leave your child in a locked hotel room and feel it's safe or you don't. I don't go checking on my car outside every 5 minutes because I've left it unlocked, no! I lock it and take all reasonable precautions to make sure it doesn't get stolen.

If they had any worries as to the safety of the child they should have taken it with them or left it in a creche if their hotel offered this facility.

At a minimum they should accept part responsibility as CharlieJ has stated and if anything happens to the child it's their fault. That may seem a bit cold and heartless but it's a parents job to create a safe environment for their children to grow up in and this is not the way to do that......

[Will L]

The thing that makes me suspicious is that they seem to go to lengths to say they went back every half hour to "check on the welfare of the child"

To me you either think it's a great idea to leave your child in a locked hotel room and feel it's safe or you don't. I don't go checking on my car outside every 5 minutes because I've left it unlocked, no! I lock it and take all reasonable precautions to make sure it doesn't get stolen.

If they had any worries as to the safety of the child they should have taken it with them or left it in a creche if their hotel offered this facility.

At a minimum they should accept part responsibility as CharlieJ has stated and if anything happens to the child it's their fault. That may seem a bit cold and heartless but it's a parents job to create a safe environment for their children to grow up in and this is not the way to do that......

I totally agree... maybe they could have got a babysitter or someone to look after them.

I feel for the parents, they didnt know this was going to happen to them anyway. Hope the child is ok and is returned soon. :(

[BDunnell]

The most ridiculous thing I've heard about this was the editor of some British expat newspaper in the Algarve being interviewed on 5 Live on Saturday morning and saying that it couldn't possibly be anyone Portuguese, 'because all Portuguese people really love kids', or words to that effect. This obviously sets Portugal apart from all those child-hating nations like Britain, France, Germany, the USA, Poland, Iceland...

[CarlMetro]

Personally I would never leave my son alone in a hotel room, even if he was sound asleep because, like most children his age he occasionally wakes up during the night. Sometimes through a bad dream, sometimes he just needs a drink but whatever the reason it is frightening enough for him when we are in the next room or downstairs, let alone if he was all alone.

However, my sympathies and thoughts go out to the parents and I pray that they get their daughter returned to the with no harm done.

As for all of you who are quick to critise the parents, fair enough they did the wrong thing, they made a mistake and ae now paying heavily for it, that does not make them bad parents. I wouldn't wish the lose of a child on my worst enemy.

[Jaws]

Well said Carl, I too would never leave my ratbags alone, but I can't even begin to understand what they must be going through.

It just shows you, being a parent is a BIG responsibility. These little legends depend on us so much to look after them.

I too hope she is found unharmed.

[schmenke]

Call me suspicious but something doesn't quite sound right about this. ...

That's the impression that I first had when I heard the story...

[NoahsGirl]

Whilst i am not a parent, i cannot imagine leaving a child unattended in a locked room and "checking every half hour". That's a 30 minute window for this person to take a small child - assuming that this person was watching the parent checking on their child.

if you want to have some alone time without children, it's the responsibility of the parents to ensure proper child care. I hope this little girl is found safe and sound and this whole experience serves as a warning to all parents.

[Hazell B]

I'm really surprised at the "it's their own fault" attitude on here considering past threads where blame is obvious yet the forum generally goes with calling me every name under the sun for saying it.

I don't totally agree that it is the parents' own fault, but they did sure as hell allow this to happen. It should be the person who took the child's fault, surely? The parents are guilty of "it won't happen to me" syndrome, that's all. They didn't think a child would be taken, burn to death, choke, wake in a strange place and panic or do any of the things children can do. They're idiots. However, as far as we know at the moment, they are not 100% to blame for the girl vanishing. 50% though, for sure.

I read that they are both doctors. Heaven help us if that's right and they're in charge of anyone's health :rolleyes:

[BDunnell]

I read that they are both doctors. Heaven help us if that's right and they're in charge of anyone's health :rolleyes:

Any evidence that either has been in any way negligent in their job?

I don't really see the connection.

[Daniel]

Ben. I think that's a fair statement from Hazell. If someone is bad at something fairly easy then it's hard to trust them when they're doing something not so easy like being a doctor.

[Hazell B]

Any evidence that either has been in any way negligent in their job?

I don't really see the connection.

There's no evidence they have faked this kidnap either, yet I don't see you commenting on those posts :rolleyes:

However, yes I do see a connection. Anyone who is confident enough to think nothing can go wrong with their own child's welfare isn't somebody I would want looking after my health. I didn't say they'd been negligent, just that they're idiots with far too little common sense.

[BDunnell]

Ben. I think that's a fair statement from Hazell. If someone is bad at something fairly easy then it's hard to trust them when they're doing something not so easy like being a doctor.

I can see that, but without any evidence that they had ever been negligent as doctors, I think it's a bit unfair to suggest that there has ever been any reason to trust their professional qualities, that's all.

[BDunnell]

There's no evidence they have faked this kidnap either, yet I don't see you commenting on those posts :rolleyes:

However, yes I do see a connection. Anyone who is confident enough to think nothing can go wrong with their own child's welfare isn't somebody I would want looking after my health. I didn't say they'd been negligent, just that they're idiots with far too little common sense.

But this may never have been obvious through their work as doctors. It is possible for someone to make a mistake in one part of their life that is totally out of character with the rest of their behaviour.

[Hazell B]

Of course it is, just there's more chance of them being idiots as doctors if they're idiots as parents (the most serious of jobs I would have thought).

[jso1985]

but she's right that you need common sense on any profession.
If they couldn't figure it out that their child was going to be in danger, I'm doubting if they have the common sense you need when doing medicine.

[BDunnell]

but she's right that you need common sense on any profession.
If they couldn't figure it out that their child was going to be in danger, I'll doubt if they have the common sense you need when doing medicine.

I know what you mean, but there is no evidence that they were bad at their jobs. It is possible for people to do irrational things when they are otherwise extremely competent individuals.

You may as well say that doctors who drive dangerously shouldn't be doing their jobs, because it indicates a hazardously reckless streak.

[Hazell B]

I never said there was any evidence :rolleyes:

Go pick on the ones saying it's a conspiracy, eh?

[BDunnell]

I never said there was any evidence :rolleyes:

Go pick on the ones saying it's a conspiracy, eh?

But in this case it strikes me as being unreasonable to suggest that there is any link between the two things, and I'm sticking to that view.

[Hazell B]

Stick to what you want, I wasn't calling for anyone to stop using their surgery. I simply said I wouldn't want them as my doctors with that level of stupidity and heaven help their other patients.

[jso1985]

I know what you mean, but there is no evidence that they were bad at their jobs. It is possible for people to do irrational things when they are otherwise extremely competent individuals.

You may as well say that doctors who drive dangerously shouldn't be doing their jobs, because it indicates a hazardously reckless streak.

all doctors drive terribly that's a fact :p :

I meant that there's of course no evidence or connection that leads to think that they're incompetent professionals, if they know what it's needed for medicine does not matter here. but if I'd be their boss I'll be worried they could repeat their irrational behaivior again on a patient

[schmenke]

...I don't totally agree that it is the parents' own fault, but they did sure as hell allow this to happen. It should be the person who took the child's fault, surely? The parents are guilty of "it won't happen to me" syndrome, that's all. They didn't think a child would be taken, burn to death, choke, wake in a strange place and panic or do any of the things children can do. They're idiots. However, as far as we know at the moment, they are not 100% to blame for the girl vanishing. 50% though, for sure...

Nope, don't buy that. A parent's first and instinctive reaction is the protection and well-being of their children.
A parent who leaves their small children unattended, even for a few minutes, are not fit to be guardians. Parents who leave their small children alone because they want to nip down to an eatery for a bit of skoff are monsters :down:

[BDunnell]

'Monsters' is taking it far too far.

[schmenke]

Sorry but I can't think of an appropriate term for a parents' blatent disregard for their childrens' well-being. These are parents who do not love thier kids.

[Zico]

Ok, feel free to judge me... I'd like to know if what I did recently makes me unfit to be a parent.

Im happily divorced, single and live alone at the moment, I get my son every weekend. In 7 years and on three occasions, while he was sleeping at aprox 10-11pm, I have had to take a trip over to the local garage to get some essentials. This takes 10 to 15 mins very max and he slept thru each time. Life isnt easy being single dad and sometimes you dont have other options.. at least in my case.

I think its being blown out of proportion here. I'd never do what they did... which WAS grossly iresponsible but are my actions so totally incompetent to make me the totally iresponsible parent.. the monster, some on here would have you believe?

While bad judgement and incompetence was the order of the day, the real monster/piece of scum is the person who may have abducted this poor little girl.

[BDunnell]

Ok, feel free to judge me... I'd like to know if what I did recently makes me unfit to be a parent.

Im happily divorced, single and live alone at the moment, I get my son every weekend. In 7 years and on three occasions, while he was sleeping at aprox 10-11pm, I have had to take a trip over to the local garage to get some essentials. This takes 10 to 15 mins very max and he slept thru each time. Life isnt easy being single dad and sometimes you dont have other options.. at least in my case.

I think its being blown out of proportion here. I'd never do what they did... which WAS grossly iresponsible but are my actions so totally incompetent to make me the totally iresponsible parent.. the monster, some on here would have you believe?

While bad judgement and incompetence was the order of the day, the real monster/piece of scum is the person who may have abducted this poor little girl.

I don't think that makes you unfit to be a parent at all. It's not a ideal situation, as you obviously appreciate, but you are not acting irresponsibly. What else can you do?

The trouble is that, with high-profile cases such as this, some people are very quick to throw blame around and start using language that's out of proportion to the situation.

[fandango]

C'mon Schmenke, that's taking it too far.

However, for these people anything we can say is irrelevant compared to the hell they must be going through.

As a parent I regularly make mistakes, some more or less serious than others. And there are near misses. You catch an arm before they run out to the street, and then you have to force the "what if..?" thoughts out of your mind so that you don't become a paranoid over-protective parent. But you have to keep watching. You have to constantly find a balance between one extreme and the other, and sometimes you get it wrong. Selifshly, one part of me is thankful that I've never had to pay so dearly for any mistake in my life. I hope it all turns out okay.

[schmenke]

Zico, how old is your son?

[Zico]

I don't think that makes you unfit to be a parent at all. It's not a ideal situation, as you obviously appreciate, but you are not acting irresponsibly. What else can you do?

The trouble is that, with high-profile cases such as this, some people are very quick to throw blame around and start using language that's out of proportion to the situation.


Some of the comments had me feeling a bit guilty, so.. Thank you..

[Zico]

Zico, how old is your son?

Its in my post.. hes seven, he'll be 8 in sept. going out on these occasions has been in the last 2 years, since spliiting with my ex.

[BDunnell]

As a parent I regularly make mistakes, some more or less serious than others. And there are near misses. You catch an arm before they run out to the street, and then you have to force the "what if..?" thoughts out of your mind so that you don't become a paranoid over-protective parent. But you have to keep watching. You have to constantly find a balance between one extreme and the other, and sometimes you get it wrong. Selifshly, one part of me is thankful that I've never had to pay so dearly for any mistake in my life. I hope it all turns out okay.

:up:

As you say, all parents make mistakes. No matter what those mistakes are, and what they result in (if anything), I don't believe that these errors are always true reflections on the personal or professional qualities of the people concerned.

By the way, I am sure I would be an over-protective parent, and so hope never to become a parent at all, because I'm not sure I would be a good one for that reason.

[Zico]

C'mon Schmenke, that's taking it too far.

However, for these people anything we can say is irrelevant compared to the hell they must be going through.

As a parent I regularly make mistakes, some more or less serious than others. And there are near misses. You catch an arm before they run out to the street, and then you have to force the "what if..?" thoughts out of your mind so that you don't become a paranoid over-protective parent. But you have to keep watching. You have to constantly find a balance between one extreme and the other, and sometimes you get it wrong. Selifshly, one part of me is thankful that I've never had to pay so dearly for any mistake in my life. I hope it all turns out okay.

I can totally relate to that, we are only human, not machines, couldnt agree more...

[Hazell B]

What else can you do?



Plan ahead and shop earlier, of course.

Sorry, but leaving a young child alone isn't safe. Zico says he's shopping for essentials, but we all know that we will need bread or whatever so we can plan ahead and shop with the child earlier in the day. In 10 or 15 minutes a house can burn down, or Zico could have a car crash and nobody would know his child is alone. It happens, as proved by these parents in Portugal.

My friend Kate left her two year old boy in the bathroom with his baby brother in the bath without any water in it while she answered the door. It took her less than 60 seconds. The two year old ran some water, put in the plug and drown his brother in less than an inch of water. He didn't, and still doesn't, know what he did. The brother was revived, by Kate, before she could call an ambulance and now has serious brain damage, is blind and cannot move much. Kate's a single parent who didn't think anything could go wrong. She should have picked up the baby and toddler and taken them to the door with her, but didn't.

Things go wrong. Often.

[Zico]

Plan ahead and shop earlier, of course.

Sorry, but leaving a young child alone isn't safe. Zico says he's shopping for essentials, but we all know that we will need bread or whatever so we can plan ahead and shop with the child earlier in the day. In 10 or 15 minutes a house can burn down, or Zico could have a car crash and nobody would know his child is alone. It happens, as proved by these parents in Portugal.

My friend Kate left her two year old boy in the bathroom with his baby brother in the bath without any water in it while she answered the door. It took her less than 60 seconds. The two year old ran some water, put in the plug and drown his brother in less than an inch of water. He didn't, and still doesn't, know what he did. The brother was revived, by Kate, before she could call an ambulance and now has serious brain damage, is blind and cannot move much. Kate's a single parent who didn't think anything could go wrong. She should have picked up the baby and toddler and taken them to the door with her, but didn't.

Things go wrong. Often.


Nothing is 100% safe Hazell, I didnt say it was, more of a calculated risk. I should have made sure I had my essentials but on these three occasions I did not, I raise my hand, but while not 100% safe, I dont think it makes me a monster.

If we go by odds, risk assesment or statistics leaving a child alone sleeping for ten - fifteen minutes like I did is probably a lot safer than taking a child on a car journey believe it or not, something a lot of us do daily and without much thought. Im not perfect as a person or a parent nor do I claim to be, I have less than ideal circumstances and Im only human, but hardly a "monster"

[CarlMetro]

Im only human, but hardly a "monster"

I wouldn't call you a monster, I would question your actions and say that they aren't aceptable in my book though.

[pino]

First of all I do hope soon Madeleine will be found so she can gives to her Family. But yes I do believe her parents acted in a very irresponsable way and are too blame for all this. But they are human beings and can make mistakes, as I believe I did years ago...

My Mum came for a visit (Copenhagen) and the day of her departure she asked to take my 5 years old daughter with her back to Italy just for a short vacation. My wife and I said yes, and everything was ok until the day she had to return home alone. Ok I knew that as soon she got to the airport a stewardess was going to take care of her still... I didn't sleep the night before and from the moment my Mum left her at the airport, I was out of my mind. I was at work but wasn't focused at all, was only thinking on my daughter and all the bad things that could 've happen to her. I was calling my wife every min to find out if she had arrived...it was a terrible experience for me, one of the worst as parent. I even got mad at my wife because she didn't phone me as soon my dauther arrived, ok maybe I did exaggerate a bit but I was out of my mind. I think that was a big mistake and I thank God that nothing happen to my daughter but I learned a lot from that experience.

As for Zico, his son was a little older so I guess nothing is wrong for what he did !

[oily oaf]

Forgive me if I keep my thoughts on the actions of the parents in this tragic affair to myself. Suffice to say that I'm sure they are both in a very dark place indeed right now.
Perhaps however it would be apt to reprise the two thousand year old words of a certain Nazarene gentleman who once remarked "He that is without sin among you let him cast the first stone"

Ever since the news of the baby's disappearance broke I have been observing the reaction in the Portuguese media and it would be no exaggeration to say that they are distraught that such a heinous act could occur in their country.
Anyone who has ever visited the country with a little one will vouchsafe that the love and indulgence lavished on children by these gentle people borders on the obsessive so to have a outrage such as this on their own doorstep is a complete anathema to them.

I must confess I have been mildly irritated by a number of British TV journos who have criticized the Portuguese police for a perceived lack of information with regard to the investigation.
Would they rather they came out with half hourly banal statements to the effect that no-one has yet been caught or got on with the job in hand.
I wearily await the calls for Scotland Yard to become involved and take the matter out of the hands of blundering foreign jonnies. I give you The Bob Woolmer Affair as a case in point.
One thing I can assure you of my friends is that I wouldn't fancy being in his or indeed her shoes when the individual responsible is taken by the fearsome Guardia National Republicana. These heavily armed and equally heavy-handed hombres are NOT to be trifled with. Trust me.

Finally I'd just like to say that my thoughts are with the parents and especially with the tiny little scrap at the centre of this terrible business who is undoubtedly frightened, confused and longing for her Mummy and Daddy.

What a world we live in my friends. What a ****** up world.

[Mark]

To change tack a little, maybe we should stop crucifying the parents and wonder about the little girl who has been kipnapped.. I dread to think what could have happened to her :(

[allycat228]

I do not even want to think about what could be happening to this little girl, the worst part is knowing at that age she will be crying for her mummy and daddy, she will be petrified being with someone she does not know and maybe someone that does not speak english.

I hope that this case does not turn out like the little boy who went missing is greese? about 15yrs ago nobody has ever found out what happend to him

The parents are probably going through hell Knowing that they cant help their daughter

[Mark]

I hope that this case does not turn out like the little boy who went missing is greese? about 15yrs ago nobody has ever found out what happend to him


That's the fear isn't it, sounds harsh to say but it would have probably been easier on those parents if the boy had been found dead, at least then they would have some closure. I bet even to this day they are wondering if he is still alive, and what he is doing.

The fear is this time that the little girl was stolen to order for someone who wants a child and given the speed of the police response she could already have left the EU.

[BDunnell]

What a world we live in my friends. What a ****** up world.

It is also a world in which detection techniques are better than they used to be, and in which I don't think there's any evidence of crimes like this being increasingly common, so I don't feel that things are any more ******-up than they have ever been.

[Hazell B]

I bet even to this day they are wondering if he is still alive, and what he is doing.



They release an e-fit of what Ben Needam would look like now each summer and hand it out at airports, etc. There's a fighting fund to keep the search going, too. His parents are still as eager to find out what happened as ever and often get calls about leads that they then follow up. Sadly, all have been failures and some have even been scams involving peroxide drenched children.

[BDunnell]

They release an e-fit of what Ben Needam would look like now each summer and hand it out at airports, etc. There's a fighting fund to keep the search going, too. His parents are still as eager to find out what happened as ever and often get calls about leads that they then follow up. Sadly, all have been failures and some have even been scams involving peroxide drenched children.

His mother was talking about it on the Today programme this very morning.

While these cases are undoubtedly awful for the parents, instances where a very young child is kidnapped but not killed and then given or sold to someone else surely raise a range of interesting psychological questions. For example, does the child ever get over the kidnap ordeal? Are some children to whom this happens so young that the sudden change in surroundings doesn't really register, as is the case with adoptions at young ages? Of course, it would be best if these things didn't happen at all in order for these questions to be raised, but it got me thinking, rather as the story of the Austrian girl who was released from 'captivity' last year did, about what goes on to happen.

[allycat228]

I would say some young children do forget look at the cases in america where the children have seen their photo's on milk cartons, mind it must freak you out finding that out when you are older. Was there not a boy in america recently who went on sleepovers and everything and never said a word to anyone that he had been abducted and i think he was pinched when he was about 9.

The list of children abducted has not really gone up, everything is just more open nowadays and not allways in a good way

[Scott Dryden]

A parallel with the Soham murders has developed tonight in that the media has played a significant role in the investigation into Madeline's disappearance. In the latter case, the work of Sky News' Jeremy Thompson was crucial in securing a conviction. In this case, the suspicions of Mirror journalist Lori Campbell have lead to the emergence of a key suspect.

There are stark similarities with the Soham case in that Lori became suspicious of a local man, showing an unnatural interest in the investigation. She shared her concerns with Ian Woods, again of Sky News. He completed his own investigation and came to a similar conclusion. Their concerns were then passed on to the police.

Hopefully this development is as significant as it currently appears, and will lead to Madeline being found alive and well.

More at: http://news.sky.com/skynews/video/videoplayer/0,,31200-1265698,.html

[oily oaf]

Obviously if this line of enquiry leads to an arrest and above all the return of the little girl to her family then hats off to the journo concerned.
However being by nature a dyed in the wool cynic, especially where the gentlemen and ladies of the British press are concerned I cant help but wonder if this was an unselfish act of laudable altruism by Ms Campbell or whether the possibility of a rather tasty scoop was the driving force behind her actions.
You have to admit that the banner headlines screaming "The Mirror Cracked It" wouldn't do their circulation any harm would it?
Perhaps I'm being mean spirited and unfair but I'm afraid my deep distrust of some of our esteemed journalistic publications sometimes know no bounds.

I hope I'm wrong but the bloke that has been taken in for questioning, a middle aged man still living with his old mum, bears all the hallmarks of a sad attention seeker pursuing his 15 minutes of fame.

Whatever the case may be I just hope and pray that this baby is found alive and well and returned to her parents real soon.

[Scott Dryden]

I agree that this appears less significant than it did last night. The first I heard of this development was on BBC News 24, who initially implied that Robert Murat had been arrested, before issuing an alert to state that he hadn't been arrested (yet then implying that such an event was imminent). Normally the two major television news organisations in the UK are more responsible than the tabloid press. Whether this was a case of the BBC and Sky falling for a Mirror plot - or they were simply being just as irresponsible - remains to be seen.

BBC News 24 have an annual budget of around £50m, and Sky News around £40m. With these kind of resources there's no reason why a good investigative journalist could not help the authorities in this type of case. However, you've raised a very interesting point, which I hadn't previously considered. Even if Lori Campbell's intentions were entirely altruistic, it's surely only a matter of time before a tabloid journalist seeking a scoop reports something less concrete - in a case of this nature - to the police (thus sending them on a wild goose chase and hindering the investigation) purely to increase their own paper's circulation.

[oily oaf]

I agree that this appears less significant than it did last night. The first I heard of this development was on BBC News 24, who initially implied that Robert Murat had been arrested, before issuing an alert to state that he hadn't been arrested (yet then implying that such an event was imminent). Normally the two major television news organisations in the UK are more responsible than the tabloid press. Whether this was a case of the BBC and Sky falling for a Mirror plot - or they were simply being just as irresponsible - remains to be seen.

BBC News 24 have an annual budget of around £50m, and Sky News around £40m. With these kind of resources there's no reason why a good investigative journalist could not help the authorities in this type of case. However, you've raised a very interesting point, which I hadn't previously considered. Even if Lori Campbell's intentions were entirely altruistic, it's surely only a matter of time before a tabloid journalist seeking a scoop reports something less concrete - in a case of this nature - to the police (thus sending them on a wild goose chase and hindering the investigation) purely to increase their own paper's circulation.

I must admit that I too was somewhat duped by the crass, hysterical reaction by the TV media to Murat's arrest. Sky News and their downmarket printed counterpart The Sun have almost had the poor sod arrested, tried and convicted before he's had a chance to sample the local porridge.
The Sun were particularly culpable of trial by media when they began their coverage of last night events with the immortal line "One-eyed Robert Murat was taken from his villa last night" etc
One eyed eh? Oh well that's it then. Hang 'im. The job's a good un.

As it's now becoming increasing likely that Murat has been the victim of a touch of journalistic overzealousness It brings in to question once again the right of the media to reveal a suspect's identity before charges are brought.

Apparently the gentleman aroused suspicions among the journalist unholy alliance as he was "A little too eager to help"
Now given the fact that Mr Murat lives a stones throw from the crime scene and is a fluent Portuguese speaker with a little girl the same age as Madeleine I would have thought his public spirited actions absolutely understandable and certainly not deserving of a night in the cells.
As a Portuguese speaker myself I would undoubtedly have offered my services to the Guarda perhaps as a translator or mediator between the press and police spokespersons.
No doubt I too would be languishing in O Prisao for my pains.

All in all a shabby little episode that has done absolutely nothing to quell my abhorrence of the gutter press in this blessed Albion.

[gadjo_dilo]

Since our news programms are always full of news about kids who burnt in the house because they were left alone, about kids who disappeared from home and were found dead, sometimes raped, kids who were at a picnic with the parents and suddenly disappeared etc., I think I'm living in a place full of irresponsibles. Responsible or not, the parents always live a tragedy and I really feel sorry for them. I can't pick the rock and throw because most of us are doing mistakes that afterwards seem irrational.
Last month we had a case with a little girl who was missing for months and despite all efforts they couldn't find her. At last they found only a few pieces of her and I was impressed by the dad who was crying he hasn't anything to bury.

[jim mcglinchey]

Youve every right to be cynical about the press Oily, but the main concern of everyone,even the press, is the safe return of the little girl and its a pity that this Murat business has not led anywhere. Meanwhile the child is still missing.

[Dave B]

Remember the golden rule: the press are in this to sell papers.

The News Of The World don't seriously care whether Sara's law is a good idea or not, The Daily Express only have one person who still gives a stuff about Diana (and he's Al Fayed's best mate Richard Desmond), and of course The Sun and its ilk are only so concerned about Maddie because they know it shifts papers.

[raphael123]

Daniel - Why have you come to the conclusion that the parents were involved? What is their motive?


To me you either think it's a great idea to leave your child in a locked hotel room and feel it's safe or you don't. I don't go checking on my car outside every 5 minutes because I've left it unlocked, no! I lock it and take all reasonable precautions to make sure it doesn't get stolen.

I don't think anyone, including the parents think it was a great idea.


If they had any worries as to the safety of the child they should have taken it with them or left it in a creche if their hotel offered this facility.


With hindsight it's easy to say that. I think they realise the mistake they made. They don't need rubbing it in.


At a minimum they should accept part responsibility as CharlieJ has stated and if anything happens to the child it's their fault. That may seem a bit cold and heartless but it's a parents job to create a safe environment for their children to grow up in and this is not the way to do that......


Agreed, they shouldn't have left them by themselves. And again, I'm sure they realise that now.


Ben. I think that's a fair statement from Hazell. If someone is bad at something fairly easy then it's hard to trust them when they're doing something not so easy like being a doctor.

Are you bad 'at something'? Does that make you incompetence in other things then?

CharlieJ

The people to blame for this are the child's parents!

I think this is another instance where people forget who the real bad guys are. The person who took the girl is the bad guy. Yes they were irresponsible. Yes it could have been prevented, but no, they are not to blame for the kidnapping, the kidnappers are, hence the name.

Hazell B


I don't totally agree that it is the parents' own fault, but they did sure as hell allow this to happen. It should be the person who took the child's fault, surely? The parents are guilty of "it won't happen to me" syndrome, that's all. They didn't think a child would be taken, burn to death, choke, wake in a strange place and panic or do any of the things children can do. They're idiots. However, as far as we know at the moment, they are not 100% to blame for the girl vanishing. 50% though, for sure.

I agree 100% with that! The parents, though were irresponsible, aren't the main people we should be blaming. We should be blaming the person who stole the girl.

It's like if you don't lock your car door, and some thug comes and steals your car. Yes you were stupid not to lock the car, but it's the person who stole the car. By blaming the parents, it's almost excusing the thief, or laying away the portion of blame, which should be 100%!


I read that they are both doctors. Heaven help us if that's right and they're in charge of anyone's health

I agree with BDunnell here. There is no connection.

It's like saying anyone who makes a mistake, is likely to be poor at their job :dozey: That means every single one of us is poor at our jobs. If you have an affair, does that mean your less likely to be good doctor? Or if you have a one nighty stand because you got stupidly drunk? Will that make you a bad doctor? If you break the speed limit, and injure someone, does that make you a bad detective? No. BDunnell...in this instance, is 100% spot on the mark.

jso1985


If they couldn't figure it out that their child was going to be in danger, I'm doubting if they have the common sense you need when doing medicine.

I think they were like most people, who never believe something bad is going to happen to them, and its always 'other people'. I'm sure you've made mistakes, like them, but maybe your a lucky one, who didn't suffer the absolute worse case scenerio. Rubbing it in, saying how stupid they are, when they realise that, isn't helping anyone.

Schemke


Nope, don't buy that. A parent's first and instinctive reaction is the protection and well-being of their children.
A parent who leaves their small children unattended, even for a few minutes, are not fit to be guardians. Parents who leave their small children alone because they want to nip down to an eatery for a bit of skoff are monsters


What you just said rules a large proportion of parents as 'unfit' to be a guardian with your way of thinking.

As BDunnell says, monsters is too harsh a word, especially when you haven't even layed a portion of blame to the kidnapper, let alone call them appropriate names.


Sorry but I can't think of an appropriate term for a parents' blatent disregard for their childrens' well-being. These are parents who do not love thier kids.

Very silly comment. You honestly think that Madelines parent's don't love her?
Do you think they are stupid? Or is this another instance where it's down to the individuals opinion whether it was safe or not?

[Daniel]

Sorry master. I won't have an opinion of my own in future.

[raphael123]

Sorry master. I won't have an opinion of my own in future.


Oh come on!! Are people not allowed to ask for someone to explain their opinion on a DISCUSSION BOARD anymore?!? :dozey:

Seriously mate.... :rolleyes:

[raphael123]

Remember the golden rule: the press are in this to sell papers.

The News Of The World don't seriously care whether Sara's law is a good idea or not, The Daily Express only have one person who still gives a stuff about Diana (and he's Al Fayed's best mate Richard Desmond), and of course The Sun and its ilk are only so concerned about Maddie because they know it shifts papers.


Thats not really fair. Haven't the News Of The World offered a lot of money to help secure the safe return of Madelaine? Also, by keeping in the news, they are helping in keeping it a high profile case, which could end up to someone coming forward, rather than people forgetting about it and her never being found...dead or alive.

I don't think The Sun would have stories praising e.g. Osama Bin Laden's terrorists attacks even if they thought otherwise, just to sell more papers.

[Daniel]

Oh come on!! Are people not allowed to ask for someone to explain their opinion on a DISCUSSION BOARD anymore?!? :dozey:

Seriously mate.... :rolleyes:
It's the fact that you are so rude and demeaning towards others that makes them not want to justify their opinions to you.

[owyfan]

I have to say that the parents should have never left their 3 children on there own in the first place and I do put some blame on them.

Yes the person/persons who took the little girl are also to blame and it's because of these people that children are no longer safe to be on their own, but if the parents hadn't left them she would have not been taken.

Yes i wish that the little girl is found safe and well but I don't think that will happen (i hope i'm wrong.)

[Dave B]

Thats not really fair. Haven't the News Of The World offered a lot of money to help secure the safe return of Madelaine? Also, by keeping in the news, they are helping in keeping it a high profile case, which could end up to someone coming forward, rather than people forgetting about it and her never being found...dead or alive.
They have indeed offered a large reward, safe in the knowledge that historically they're almost never claimed. There's questionable value in a large reward, as it can encourage the nutters to start calling up and wasting police time. I'm not saying it's necessarily a bad thing, but if you think for one moment the papers are doing this for philanthropic reasons then you're kidding yourself.

[martinbalmer]

I haven't been able to read the whole thread through, so it's unlikely I'm not repeating ground already well covered. However, I feel like saying my piece.

I do not have any offspring of my own but when charged with the responsibility of my niece or nephew (or both), I feel just the same. I could never leave my children out of sight and on their own whilst I left the house (apartment, dwelling, building, hotel room, whatever..) no matter how few yards away I may be. There are just so many things that could happen.

Personally I'd think it hard enough leaving them with anyone other than a select few (mother, grand parents, etc, etc) that can be trusted.


Do you think they are stupid? Or is this another instance where it's down to the individuals opinion whether it was safe or not?

So yes, to me, I think they were stupid to leave their children unattended, out of sight, "home alone".



I read that they are both doctors


I cannot see how this would automatically mean they must be bad doctors or be cause for concern. Even if you'd think that they'd know better.

The only thing I would say is that even before this, and if they'd been put on the spot about it, their own professional advice to parents would be never to leave children in that situation no matter how regularly they are checked.



I think they were like most people, who never believe something bad is going to happen to them, and its always 'other people'.


Exactly. I'm sure in hindsight that they would have done things differently. I'm also sure they regret it and feel extremely guilty.



What you just said rules a large proportion of parents as 'unfit' to be a guardian with your way of thinking.


Maybe a lot of parents have taken this as a wake-up call. At least for a while.

As the for the media. It's not exactly uncommon for them to blow their own trumpet, peddling the idea that they are the savours of the planet, the all encompassing good that knows everything there is to know about anything. The masters of everyone else's jobs, the super heroes who capture criminals and protect the helpless citizens. They love being centre of attention.

Bad news is good news to the media. It sells papers, it boasts viewing figures.

I hope Madeline is found safe and well.

[raphael123]

It's the fact that you are so rude and demeaning towards others that makes them not want to justify their opinions to you.

I was rude to you when I questioned you? Where?

I have re-read what I said, and I honestly don't see where I was rude to you, or demaning. I haven't written anything in capital letters, or in bold, or italics, I haven't insulted you, called you names, or said what you said was stupid. Nothing.

If anything, you replied back with a scarcastic reply, when all I did was ask you how you came to your conclusion the parents were involved, and questioned a couple of other things you said...and politely too!

If you could be kind enough to show me where I was rude towards you, which made you not want to justify your opinions, I'll happily take it on board, and keep it in mind in future discussions :)

[Daniel]

I was rude to you when I questioned you? Where?

I have re-read what I said, and I honestly don't see where I was rude to you, or demaning. I haven't written anything in capital letters, or in bold, or italics, I haven't insulted you, called you names, or said what you said was stupid. Nothing.

If anything, you replied back with a scarcastic reply, when all I did was ask you how you came to your conclusion the parents were involved, and questioned a couple of other things you said...and politely too!

If you could be kind enough to show me where I was rude towards you, which made you not want to justify your opinions, I'll happily take it on board, and keep it in mind in future discussions :)
What's ticked me off is the fact that you accuse me of accusing the parents of being behind her disappearance. I merely said I found their story suspicious. Suspicion is a long way away from accusation.

[BDunnell]

They have indeed offered a large reward, safe in the knowledge that historically they're almost never claimed. There's questionable value in a large reward, as it can encourage the nutters to start calling up and wasting police time. I'm not saying it's necessarily a bad thing, but if you think for one moment the papers are doing this for philanthropic reasons then you're kidding yourself.

:up:

The sad thing is that there is undoubtedly public demand for this type of story. A lot of people do want to know every little detail of what is going on. This can be counter-productive, as it leads to incorrect assumptions that whatever authority is involved is doing little or nothing.

Personally, I think this has a lot to do with the unhealthy level of interest a lot of people now seem to have with anything or anyone that reaches the public eye.

[BDunnell]

I cannot see how this would automatically mean they must be bad doctors or be cause for concern. Even if you'd think that they'd know better.

The only thing I would say is that even before this, and if they'd been put on the spot about it, their own professional advice to parents would be never to leave children in that situation no matter how regularly they are checked...

I'm sure in hindsight that they would have done things differently. I'm also sure they regret it and feel extremely guilty.

:up: again.

[oily oaf]

I wonder if I'm alone in becoming more than a trifle irritated by the almost obscene amount of blanket coverage this very sad story is being given by the media per se and by Sky News in particular who have one of their senior correspondents permanently esconced outside the villa of Robert Murat the man who was taken into police custody yesterday for having the temerity to be "a bit too helpful"
At one point the journo in question who was clearly struggling to fill in the time slot for his piece to camera alluded to the fact that the now disused water tanks on the property had "large cavernous areas beneath them". A capital offence in itself surely and in no way a gratuitous attempt to conjure up visions of the lost child in a subterranean tomb.
It would be laughable if it wasn't such a bloody disgrace.

As for the silly sods in Maddie's home town who are poncing around all over the gaff with yellow ribbons all over their togs and spouting off like media whores every time a microphone hoves into view. Not only are they doing absolutely sweet Fanny Adams with regard to recovering the lost child but they are making themselves look like a bunch of no mark arseoles into the bargain.

I bet these were the same intellectual giants that lined up outside Clarence House when Lady Di was carted through town, wailing, screaming and beating their breasts in abject despair at the loss of a woman they never knew.

I sometimes despair at the sheer amount of vacuous and empty headed plankton that inhabit this planet of ours and no error.

[raphael123]

What's ticked me off is the fact that you accuse me of accusing the parents of being behind her disappearance. I merely said I found their story suspicious. Suspicion is a long way away from accusation.

You said 'Call me suspicious but something doesn't quite sound right about this. Me thinks parents but mehopes I'm wrong and the child turns up safe and sound'

I didnt say you thought they were behind her disappearance, I just asked you why you thought the parents were involved - which from your original post, is fair to assume you think its a possibility. I don't see where I have been rude or demeaning to you, unless your a highly sensitive man. Damn! Is that being rude? :p :

On a serious note, I would be interested in hearing your replies to my questions, such as why you are suspicious to the fact the parents my be involved? and also, as you believe that the fact they made such a big mistake, means we shouldn't be so trusting witht them as our doctors, have you ever made a mistake, and does this mean your incompetent at other things, such as your job?

[raphael123]

So yes, to me, I think they were stupid to leave their children unattended, out of sight, "home alone".



I agree. I bought the point up, because a couple of forumers here don't believe that anyone's opinion is stupid. Hopefully this will make them realise how stupid that was.

[DonnieDarco]

I must admit, I'm not at all happy about the way the parents are being portrayed as saints by the media, when its very clear that their actions led directly to this terrible event. Of course they weren't to know in advance this would happen, but as a parent you have to be aware of risks, especially when you are in a foreign country.

I'm hearing that they at first claimed the shutters had been jimmied open, but it later became apparent they had left the patio doors unlocked so they could check on the children without waking them.

Apparently, several families did the same thing.

If the parents had ensured all doors were locked and secure along with the windows and the child was still abducted, at least they'd be able to say they took all reasonable precautions, save for the most obvious one, that of not leaving the children alone at all.

All my sympathies are for the little girl, I sincerely hope she will be found safe and well.

[Daniel]

I must admit, I'm not at all happy about the way the parents are being portrayed as saints by the media, when its very clear that their actions led directly to this terrible event. Of course they weren't to know in advance this would happen, but as a parent you have to be aware of risks, especially when you are in a foreign country.

I'm hearing that they at first claimed the shutters had been jimmied open, but it later became apparent they had left the patio doors unlocked so they could check on the children without waking them.

Apparently, several families did the same thing.

If the parents had ensured all doors were locked and secure along with the windows and the child was still abducted, at least they'd be able to say they took all reasonable precautions, save for the most obvious one, that of not leaving the children alone at all.

All my sympathies are for the little girl, I sincerely hope she will be found safe and well.
If what you've said is true (I have no reason to doubt it is) then the parents are 99.99999999% at fault for what happened.

[schmenke]

...
What you just said rules a large proportion of parents as 'unfit' to be a guardian with your way of thinking....

Raphael, you are obviously not a parent.

[DonnieDarco]

Well, its really not at all easy to find concrete proof of this. The media have glossed over any negative points, presumably taking the view that it doesn't help with the finding of the child and might in fact detract from it. And since finding her is the most important thing right now, I do understand.

But I'm fairly sure an early report I saw on TV mentioned that the windows hadn't been tampered with, as was first thought.

I suspect these finer details will emerge at some later point.

[Hazell B]

But I'm fairly sure an early report I saw on TV mentioned that the windows hadn't been tampered with, as was first thought.




I was sure I'd heard the same thing on day two of the search, on News 24 from an official police statement, but as it wasn't mentioned again guessed I'd heard wrongly. You reason for it not being talked about again makes sense, I expect you're right.

[Daniel]

Well, its really not at all easy to find concrete proof of this. The media have glossed over any negative points, presumably taking the view that it doesn't help with the finding of the child and might in fact detract from it. And since finding her is the most important thing right now, I do understand.

But I'm fairly sure an early report I saw on TV mentioned that the windows hadn't been tampered with, as was first thought.

I suspect these finer details will emerge at some later point.
It might not help find this child but it will help stop other abductions if such stupidity is exposed and shown to be "not the thing to do"

[DonnieDarco]

I've done a bit of digging, and have a link to post.

This says that three other couples, all Doctors like the McCanns also left their children alone at night while they went to dine. It also says that they'd done this more than once on this holiday, which would make it very easy for someone to be aware of their movements.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23395686-details/Madeleine%27s+parents+didn%27t+want+to+leave+her+w ith+a+stranger/article.do

No mention in that articale though, of possible unlocked doors.

[martinbalmer]

This says that three other couples, all Doctors like the McCanns also left their children alone at night while they went to dine. It also says that they'd done this more than once on this holiday, which would make it very easy for someone to be aware of their movements.

Yes, I would think it very likely their movements were being observed pretty heavily up until the abduction. :up:

[Ian McC]

It might not help find this child but it will help stop other abductions if such stupidity is exposed and shown to be "not the thing to do"

If they don't find her, these people will have to live with it for the rest of their lives, I wouldn't wish that on anyone :(

[allycat228]

my son was 3 when he first went abroad with my mum,dad,sister her husband and myself, if we went out for dinner at night he used to sleep in his pram at the table with us, I could not of left him by himself as i think these parents have now found out

[allycat228]

I went on holiday with my parents, sister and her boyfriend when alex was 3 if we went out for dinner at night alex always came with us he used to fall asleep in his pram, I would not have had it any over way. Alex loved it getting free ice cream off the waiters. One of us always had alex with us night and day

[BDunnell]

As for the silly sods in Maddie's home town who are poncing around all over the gaff with yellow ribbons all over their togs and spouting off like media whores every time a microphone hoves into view. Not only are they doing absolutely sweet Fanny Adams with regard to recovering the lost child but they are making themselves look like a bunch of no mark arseoles into the bargain.

I bet these were the same intellectual giants that lined up outside Clarence House when Lady Di was carted through town, wailing, screaming and beating their breasts in abject despair at the loss of a woman they never knew.

I sometimes despair at the sheer amount of vacuous and empty headed plankton that inhabit this planet of ours and no error.

Absolutely. :up:

Neither did I understand what good lobbying MPs at the House of Commons today did. What are they supposed to be able to do? Go out there and start searching themselves?

[BDunnell]

I've done a bit of digging, and have a link to post.

This says that three other couples, all Doctors like the McCanns also left their children alone at night while they went to dine. It also says that they'd done this more than once on this holiday, which would make it very easy for someone to be aware of their movements.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23395686-details/Madeleine%27s+parents+didn%27t+want+to+leave+her+w ith+a+stranger/article.do

No mention in that articale though, of possible unlocked doors.

Well, let's strike them all off now, then...

[DonnieDarco]

Strike all what off?

[oily oaf]

Absolutely. :up:

Neither did I understand what good lobbying MPs at the House of Commons today did. What are they supposed to be able to do? Go out there and start searching themselves?

Hehehehehe Yes I must confess that when I saw the yellow ribbon club marching purposefully towards Westminster, jaws jutting and eyeballs swivelling I did wonder quite what they were hoping to achieve by going down that avenue.
Perhaps they were merely dropping in on the way to Harley Street to beat up a paediatrician.

I expect I'm being a heartless, brute-like curmudgeon again but Gawd save us from attention seeking, "look at me I'm a caring sharing type", semi comatose mugs wherever they may roam.

Right I'm off to tie a yellow ribbon around my "Old Chap" safe in the knowledge that it will definitely result in Jose Mourinho's dog being found and restored once more into the bosom of his family. :)

[RaceFanStan]

The bottomline :
Children require a caregiver, if the parents are otherwise occupied, a substitute caregiver MUST be found !
If a "baby-sitter" is unavailable then one parent MUST stay home with the child !
Children should NEVER be left unattended, to leave a child unattended is totally unacceptable !

[BDunnell]

Strike all what off?

Those doctors you mentioned, from the medical register — that's what some people seem to think should happen.

[DonnieDarco]

Oh, got you. No of course I don't think they should be struck off, this has nothing at all to do with their professional careers.

[BDunnell]

Hehehehehe Yes I must confess that when I saw the yellow ribbon club marching purposefully towards Westminster, jaws jutting and eyeballs swivelling I did wonder quite what they were hoping to achieve by going down that avenue.
Perhaps they were merely dropping in on the way to Harley Street to beat up a paediatrician.

I expect I'm being a heartless, brute-like curmudgeon again but Gawd save us from attention seeking, "look at me I'm a caring sharing type", semi comatose mugs wherever they may roam.

Right I'm off to tie a yellow ribbon around my "Old Chap" safe in the knowledge that it will definitely result in Jose Mourinho's dog being found and restored once more into the bosom of his family. :)

:laugh:

There is a brilliant, in my view, bit of comment on this situation by Matthew Parris in today's Times:

'Yellow ribbons for Maddy in the Commons chamber. Yuk. What disgusting, mawkish, creepy behaviour by pathetic MPs hoping to tap in to the emotions of the mob, to live like the common people, feel what the common people feel. “Look, I’m blubbing too, just like you: vote for me.”

'One secretary of state was even seen to arrive without a ribbon, notice them spreading like weeds backwards from the front bench, exit and return with her own ribbon. Were the whips dishing them out? Is this how people get sucked in to waves of shallow public sentiment? First you copy the ribbons, then the tears and finally you think you’re feeling it too. Poor parents of Madeleine McCann. Why doesn’t everyone just leave them alone?'

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/matthew_parris/article1801174.ece

The trouble is that if none of those MPs had done this, you can bet your life that one or more of the tabloids would have had a go at "cold-hearted politicians" who are "out of touch with the public".

[BDunnell]

Oh, got you. No of course I don't think they should be struck off, this has nothing at all to do with their professional careers.

Indeed. Wasn't suggesting that you thought that, by the way.

[DonnieDarco]

:laugh:

There is a brilliant, in my view, bit of comment on this situation by Matthew Parris in today's Times:

Poor parents of Madeleine McCann. Why doesn’t everyone just leave them alone?'

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/matthew_parris/article1801174.ece

The trouble is that if none of those MPs had done this, you can bet your life that one or more of the tabloids would have had a go at "cold-hearted politicians" who are "out of touch with the public".

Wasn't it the aunt of the little girl who went to the Houses of Parliament yesterday or the day before??

She was practically demanding they all do this!

[BDunnell]

Wasn't it the aunt of the little girl who went to the Houses of Parliament yesterday or the day before??

She was practically demanding they all do this!

This is the trouble. I think it's a form of emotional blackmail, apart from being pointless and another example of the triteness that always accompanies these cases.

[slinkster]

How long has she been missing now? about 2 weeks? It's going to be absolutely heart wrenching for them to ever leave Portugal if they don't find her.

Along with many others here, I agree that the parents actions were irresponsible. I'm not a parent myself but I don't think anything would matter enough for me to leave any chils under the age of about 13 home alone. Hazel is right in saying that it's not so much the parents fault, obviously you never ever would expect this to happen, but their irresposibility created a window for something to go wrong.

[schmenke]

Parents are ALWAYS responsible for the safety and well-being of their children.
See post # 86

[Hazell B]

Those doctors you mentioned, from the medical register — that's what some people seem to think should happen.

And who would those people be, exactly?
Stop trying to invent things we've said just because you don't agree.

Oh sorry, I forgot you don't care :rolleyes:

[raphael123]

This is the trouble. I think it's a form of emotional blackmail, apart from being pointless and another example of the triteness that always accompanies these cases.

I wouldn't say its pointless. Anything which brings media attention will keep the story in public eye for as long as possible, hopefully resulting in us knowing her whereabouts or find out whats happened to the little girl.

[raphael123]

And who would those people be, exactly?
Stop trying to invent things we've said just because you don't agree.

Oh sorry, I forgot you don't care :rolleyes:

In fairness to BDunnell - you did say that if they idiots as parents, then theres more of a chance of them being idiots as doctors too. You also said you wouldn't trust them to be your doctor because of one mistake, which many other parents also do (3 other couples who admitted doing the same who were on holiday with them). And you also said heaven help us if they incharge of anyone's health (due to them being doctors).

It all goes towards suggesting you feel, because they made a mistake as a parent, that they are bad doctors.

This reminds me of another topic, where one minute your saying something, the next your denying it, and accusing others of inventing things up, or twisting things.

[raphael123]

Raphael, you are obviously not a parent.

You said anyone who leaves a small child, unattended, even for a few minutes, is unfit to be a guardian. You've describedanyone who has left their child to get something in the local shop as a 'monster' - which a fellow forumer has said he has done on 3 seperate occasions.

Going by your saying, I'd say a large proportion of parents are 'unfit' to be parents in your eyes. That's a fact.

I find it disturbingly alarming you seem more concerned on blaming the parents, rather than putting any blame on the kidnapper.

Moving the discussion on - who do people blame more. The parents, or the kidnapper/s?

I'd say the parents were irresponsible, stupid, no doubt about that - but at the end of the day - it's the kidnapper who has been preying on this girl, and eventually kidnapped her. Not the parents.

[schmenke]

...I find it disturbingly alarming you seem more concerned on blaming the parents, rather than putting any blame on the kidnapper....

Why is it disturbing or alarming? :confused:
See post # 94

[raphael123]

Why is it disturbing or alarming? :confused:
See post # 94

I don't agree with that. The parents failed to be responsible - that doesn't mean they are to blame for the kidnapping - the kidnappers are - hence the name kidnappers.


Seeing some of the stuff you've said though, such as they obviously don't love their children etc, it's hard to take what you say on this matter seriously. Only a fool would believe they don't love their children. Yes, they made a mistake, which resulted in the worst case scenerio, but it was deliberate, they didn't know it was going to happen, and it certainly doesn't prove they don't love their children - as they obviously do.

I just hope you never make a mistake which results in something as bad as what they are going through at the moment!

[schmenke]

I...I just hope you never make a mistake which results in something as bad as what they are going through at the moment!

Trust me, I never would. I love my children.

[Hazell B]

This reminds me of another topic, where one minute your saying something, the next your denying it, and accusing others of inventing things up, or twisting things.


I did NOT say, or even hint, that they should be struck off. Now who's twisting things, eh? Stay out of it.

And I agree that it is wrong of parents to leave children alone, in a locked house or open one. Even in a car. As I already said, I blame parents and person who takes the child in cases like this. Schmenke's right that the parents let this happen. It's not alarming, it's fact.

[raphael123]

Trust me, I never would. I love my children.

Do you think the McCans don't love their children?

And I wasn't referring to a specific mistake you make resulting in the harm of your children, just a general mistake. It must be great to be so perfect.

[schmenke]

Do you think the McCans don't love their children?

And I wasn't referring to a specific mistake you make resulting in the harm of your children, just a general mistake. It must be great to be so perfect.

I find it deeply disturbing that you even mention harm to my children...

[raphael123]

I did NOT say, or even hint, that they should be struck off. Now who's twisting things, eh? Stay out of it.

And I agree that it is wrong of parents to leave children alone, in a locked house or open one. Even in a car. As I already said, I blame parents and person who takes the child in cases like this. Schmenke's right that the parents let this happen. It's not alarming, it's fact.

Ok Hazell. Now let's calm down. I haven't accused you or said they should be struck off have I?

All I've accused you of, is of saying that you believe there's a connection between them being irresponsible and leaving their children alone, and being bad doctors who you wouldn't trust as your doctor.

And I agree too that it is wrong to leave children alone, and I blame the kidnappers, and the parents to a certain extent. Schemke has blamed the entire incident on the parents, and no blame whatsoever on the kidnappers so far. I agree with what you said earlier Hazell - 'I don't totally agree that it is the parents' own fault, but they did sure as hell allow this to happen. It should be the person who took the child's fault, surely?

:up:

Your words Hazell, not mine, and I agree with that quote. I don't think we should be blaming the parents for this, but the kidnappers.

[raphael123]

I find it deeply disturbing that you even mention harm to my children...

Um...it didn't mean anything. I apologise if you were offended by it :)

Anyway, so do you think the McCans love their children? I've asked 3 times, each time you don't seem to want to answer. If there's a reason for your reluctance to answer feel free to inform me.

[schmenke]

Raphael123 please stop trolling me.

[BDunnell]

And who would those people be, exactly?
Stop trying to invent things we've said just because you don't agree.

Oh sorry, I forgot you don't care :rolleyes:

You basically said so. Maybe my dislike of you — as far as one can dislike another person who you have only ever encountered online — makes me want to exaggerate your view a little. I'm sure you'll understand.

[Daniel]

Raphael123 please stop trolling me.
I second that!

[Hazell B]

Ok Hazell. Now let's calm down. I haven't accused you or said they should be struck off have I?



I'm perfectly calm, thank you.

Can I suggest if you want to butt in on conversations and start picking at people, you at least try and be polite, likeable on some level or correct? Instead you seem to come here looking to annoy everyone.

People like you don't tend to last long here.
That's not a threat, it's just how it works out.

[BDunnell]

I wouldn't say its pointless. Anything which brings media attention will keep the story in public eye for as long as possible, hopefully resulting in us knowing her whereabouts or find out whats happened to the little girl.

Lobbying MPs and getting them to wear ribbons makes not one jot of practical difference in a case like this. The case is all over the media as it is. I'd say that people are probably as aware of it as they need to be.

[BDunnell]

Um...it didn't mean anything. I apologise if you were offended by it :)

Anyway, so do you think the McCans love their children? I've asked 3 times, each time you don't seem to want to answer. If there's a reason for your reluctance to answer feel free to inform me.

Your constant repetition of questions to which you don't think you've received a good enough answer is getting more than a little irritating. This is a message board, not an interrogation of the Prime Minister on Newsnight.

[DonnieDarco]

I did see one good thing tonight on ITV news, they closed with it. A video has been released called Look for Madeline. It makes particular note of the very distinctive iris detail in one of her eyes.

This cannot be altered and makes Madeline's appearance unique.

I really hope this works and Madeline can be found safe and well.

[Hazell B]

I'm sure you'll understand.


That you lied? Yes, I understand and am used to it.

On TV news they mentioned a fund for the parents. I'm not really understanding why there's a charity-like fund being set up for them. Surely they get legal advice for nothing and the resort is putting them up for free (and probably making a fortune out of the journalists there anyway).

A fund for some poor child who lost his parents is great, but not the other way around. It's been done before then abused, so why drag all that temptation out and wave cash at a family when some members of that family will perhaps just take holidays on it :mark:
Funding posters and so on is fantastic, but the UK media would do that simply to sell more papers anyway. No need for any donations.

[BDunnell]

That you lied? Yes, I understand and am used to it.


If you are on a mission to make me think even less of your views, you are going about it the right way.

No doubt you also think that I lie about everything else in my day-to-day life on this basis, given your views on character traits as expressed earlier in this thread.

[Hazell B]

No doubt you also think that I lie about everything else ...

You lied in this case, that's more the point.
Anyway, rather than get the last word in as I always let you do, can you stop now as I expect everyone's sick of this?

[BDunnell]

You lied in this case, that's more the point.
Anyway, rather than get the last word in as I always let you do, can you stop now as I expect everyone's sick of this?

Yes. I don't think the 'blame' is all mine, though. But let's end it there. I disagree vehemently with you, and you with me. That's fine by me.

[LotusElise]

Despite the catfight, a lot of good points have been raised. This week I've received a couple of mails to my Myspace asking me to display "Find Maddie" icons or sign up to a Maddie page. What good is that going to do? I don't understand why so many people feel the need to be involved.

Hazell is pretty correct in her basic assessment of this; yes, the parents were negligent, but on the other hand it was not them who decided to abduct her. That was the kidnapper's decision.

[fandango]

Despite the catfight, a lot of good points have been raised. This week I've received a couple of mails to my Myspace asking me to display "Find Maddie" icons or sign up to a Maddie page. What good is that going to do? I don't understand why so many people feel the need to be involved.

I wondered this too, but I imagine the media pressure and big reward is as much for the bad people as the good ones, perhaps to tempt someone to go for a better option....

[raphael123]

Regarding her distinctive eye, though I think it needed to be publicised, I also think that this could work out disadvantaging her. The kidnappers, who beforehand may have thought they'd be able to change her look well enough, would realise people would be looking out for her eye, and dare I say it, 'got rid of her'. I hope not. But its looking unlikely they'll find her now. If the kidnappers were going to start feeling guilty, I think it would have happened by now. And I think if there was going to be any sightings of the girl, it would have happened while she was being transported to whereever they were taking her. I'm assuming, after 2wks, they have taken her there, and if they've kept her alive, will be keeping her indoors 24/7.

My thoughts go out to the family :(

[raphael123]

I'm perfectly calm, thank you.

Can I suggest if you want to butt in on conversations and start picking at people, you at least try and be polite, likeable on some level or correct? Instead you seem to come here looking to annoy everyone.

People like you don't tend to last long here.
That's not a threat, it's just how it works out.

Hazell, I'm sorry you feel that way. I've just quoted you, and said I agree with that quote you posted earlier. I apologise if you thought that was me picking on you, and me somehow being impolite to you. Hope we're ok :) :up:

[raphael123]

Your constant repetition of questions to which you don't think you've received a good enough answer is getting more than a little irritating. This is a message board, not an interrogation of the Prime Minister on Newsnight.

I'm sorry you feel this way :( Even on topics we which we agree with 100%, you seem to find someone to pick me on :laugh:

From my point of view, even though you are always having a go at me for 'interrogating' people, I do feel that every thing I post, I can rely on you to 'interrogate' me. I don't personally mind, but maybe you should consider that fact before you critizise another forumer for continuously quoting another member, when you yourself do that (And please don't take that negatively, it's just a thought for you think about) :) I admit, I was a bit too eager to find out what Schemnke's thoughts on it was, and I'll keep you comments, about this being a message board, and not an interrogation of the Prime Minister in mind in future discussions. Hope we're ok :) :up:

[raphael123]

Lobbying MPs and getting them to wear ribbons makes not one jot of practical difference in a case like this. The case is all over the media as it is. I'd say that people are probably as aware of it as they need to be.

True, this is already top news. Apparently the aunt or gran met Gordon Brown, who filled up, nice to hear about Gordon's warm side. I wouldn't say these campaigns are completely useless, I'd say they were worthwhile. If my daughter went missing, I wouldn't rule out doing something similar.

[raphael123]

Raphael123 please stop trolling me.

I'm sorry Schmenke :( I admit I was too eager to hear your thoughts. I was simply curious to hear you try and explain to me how you can honestly think the mccans don't love their children (assuming that would have been your answer - gathered from what you've said). I think you would have been in the minority to think that they didnt love their children. I mentioned that to numerous people who replied with 'don't be so stupid'. Obviously I'm guessing maybe that's why you don't want to say it. I didn't think I was being unreasonable in asking you. However, I was wrong to pester you about it after you continuously failed to answer. If you don't want to reply to a question, for whatever reason you have, that is entirely up to you, and I respect that. Hope we're ok :) :up:

[raphael123]

I second that!

I'm sorry Daniel. I'm not sure if your 'seconding' the fact Schmenke pointed out regarding him, or you (as I think I was discussing with you).

In other forums, when I quote someone, it's the norm to quote me back, and so on. In this forum, I have noticed people only tend to quote certain parts, and avoiding a lot of good points the other person brings in, simply because they can't counter it. In my old forum, we use to be able to admit if they came up with a good point. Obviously I'll have to get use to this, and rather than just asking the same question again, until the person replies, just accept they're never going to accept that.

If you feel I was impolite to you, or insensitive, which as I pointed out, I don't think I was, and I'd be surprised if you could find evidence, I apologise :(

Anyway, you seem like a nice guy, I hope we're ok :) :up:

PS: Be careful, you may be accused of 'butting in' :p :

[oily oaf]

Holy Acts Of Contrition Bat Unpopular Chap!

I haven't heard such a plethora of apologies since "Mad" Frankie Fraser spilled Mrs Oaf's pint in The Dog And Transvestite 4 ale bar In Cripplegate :eek:

While you are in such a conciliatory frame of mind I wonder if you'd mind apologising to my cat who rather unfortunately was killed instantly last evening after I flayed it alive, roasted it on the BBQ and ate it in a large brown bap.

I'll thank you later.

PS It's what he would have wanted :)

[Daniel]

I'm sorry Daniel. I'm not sure if your 'seconding' the fact Schmenke pointed out regarding him, or you (as I think I was discussing with you).

In other forums, when I quote someone, it's the norm to quote me back, and so on. In this forum, I have noticed people only tend to quote certain parts, and avoiding a lot of good points the other person brings in, simply because they can't counter it. In my old forum, we use to be able to admit if they came up with a good point. Obviously I'll have to get use to this, and rather than just asking the same question again, until the person replies, just accept they're never going to accept that.

If you feel I was impolite to you, or insensitive, which as I pointed out, I don't think I was, and I'd be surprised if you could find evidence, I apologise :(

Anyway, you seem like a nice guy, I hope we're ok :) :up:

PS: Be careful, you may be accused of 'butting in' :p :
Sorry master :rolleyes:

[pino]

Please Guys let's stick to the topic, keep personal issues off here, and do not involve/mention other member's families in it.


Thanks :)

[Flat.tyres]

I don't agree with that. The parents failed to be responsible - that doesn't mean they are to blame for the kidnapping - the kidnappers are - hence the name kidnappers.


Seeing some of the stuff you've said though, such as they obviously don't love their children etc, it's hard to take what you say on this matter seriously. Only a fool would believe they don't love their children. Yes, they made a mistake, which resulted in the worst case scenerio, but it was deliberate, they didn't know it was going to happen, and it certainly doesn't prove they don't love their children - as they obviously do.

I just hope you never make a mistake which results in something as bad as what they are going through at the moment!

i agree with you. these people are obviously loving and caring parents that thought they had everything under control. a nice evening, kids to bed, little meal down at the tavern 50 yards away, pop back every so often to make sure the kids are ok, no problems.

It all seemed so perfect at the time but never in their wildest imagination could they envisage someone breaking into their apartment and kidnapping one of there children.

They made a mistake which is something we are all capable of. lets not throw them to the dogs for that but concentrate on the criminals.

[DonnieDarco]

They were in a foreign country, they should have been aware of the risks. And its not just this particular risk, the children could have gotten into all sorts of trouble if they had woken up.

Its against the law in this country to leave a child under the age of 11 at home alone. These three were all under 5! Its common sense that children so young need constant supervision.

Its not that we're throwing them to the dogs, its more about what the heck is poor Madeline going through, because they made it so easy. Thats the part which people are finding hard to take. And its not just here, public opinion is divided all over the web.

I agree with you that ALL parents make mistakes and none of us are perfect by any means. But I never made this mistake, did you? My son is safe and well.

[oily oaf]

It has just come to my attention via the stationary, transistorised, talking radio box device that a number of sparkling individuals have set up bogus websites with a name very similar to that of the "official" Madeleine site and then proceeded to flood these sites with advertisements flogging their dodgy wares.
That's very nice of them isn't it folks? :)

[DonnieDarco]

Thats awful, I hope these people can be traced and dealt with.

[oily oaf]

Thats awful, I hope these people can be traced and dealt with.

Now I know you frown on my occasional penchant for violent intervention Donnie but give me half a chance and I'd deal with these heroes very nicely indeed ;)

(drops deftly into boxers crouch and delivers sickening roundhouse right hook into solar plexus of cat)

[DonnieDarco]

Go right ahead, I have no problem with it ;)

[Ian McC]

I see there is now a possible sighting in Morocco

http://news.uk.msn.com/Article.aspx?cp-documentid=4970443

I wonder what the parents think when they read stuff like that, probably try to not get their hopes up, if it was true at least they would know she was alive though not quite sure how you would follow up a lead in Morocco.

[Ian McC]

i agree with you. these people are obviously loving and caring parents that thought they had everything under control. a nice evening, kids to bed, little meal down at the tavern 50 yards away, pop back every so often to make sure the kids are ok, no problems.

It all seemed so perfect at the time but never in their wildest imagination could they envisage someone breaking into their apartment and kidnapping one of there children.

They made a mistake which is something we are all capable of. lets not throw them to the dogs for that but concentrate on the criminals.

:up:

They have to live with it for the rest of their lives whatever happens, a high price to pay for a mistake.

[raphael123]

Holy Acts Of Contrition Bat Unpopular Chap!

I haven't heard such a plethora of apologies since "Mad" Frankie Fraser spilled Mrs Oaf's pint in The Dog And Transvestite 4 ale bar In Cripplegate :eek:

While you are in such a conciliatory frame of mind I wonder if you'd mind apologising to my cat who rather unfortunately was killed instantly last evening after I flayed it alive, roasted it on the BBQ and ate it in a large brown bap.

I'll thank you later.

PS It's what he would have wanted


haha :laugh:

Of course I can apologise to your cat :p : I'm sorry Oily's cat :D

I'm the king of apologies :D

[raphael123]

Sorry master :rolleyes:

:laugh: Your forgiven, and it's Admiral, not master please :laugh: :D

[donKey jote]

They were in a foreign country, they should have been aware of the risks. And its not just this particular risk, the children could have gotten into all sorts of trouble if they had woken up.


Maybe they assesed the risks and believed they would be safer in this foreign country than in their own. :dozey:
Maybe the child did wake up and went out to look for her parents.

I haven't been following the case... has it really been proved that a kidnapper broke into the flat and took her away ?

[raphael123]

Apparently most parents were doing the same as the McCans weren't they? 3 of the families they were friends with were doing the same anyway.

[Hazell B]

... has it really been proved that a kidnapper broke into the flat and took her away ?


The police are not really making many comments yet - as Donnie said they want the parents and child to keep our sympathy and not be shunned for their actions - but it seems the flat wasn't broken into as it was all unlocked. They simply walked in and took her away.

Original reports said a window was forced, but that now seems wrong. Original reports said the parents were eating a meal and checking on her, but now it appears they had been leaving all three children alone every night while they ate, so anyone could have seen them by day with children then alone at night without them and known easy prey was there for the taking.

We won't know what the whole truth is for a long time yet.

[Scott Dryden]

Here's an interesting article which discusses some of the points made on this thread:

http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/article/3365/

[raphael123]

I don't really agree with much of that article.

I think all this media attention, and people wearing yellow ribons etc, no ok it may not help find her, but I don't see why people are complaining about it. Some people love to have a moan, and they've choosen to have a moan over politians wearing yellow ribbons.

Let them moan :up:

[BeansBeansBeans]

The parents made a terrible mistake, but they are paying for it in the worst way imaginable. I have every sympathy for them, despite their negligence.

I only hope their daughter is found safe and well.