Williams leave testing Spain earlier due to Rosberg crash [Archive]

ClarkFan

2nd May 2007, 21:39

Gannex

2nd May 2007, 22:01

This is kind of problem shows how a low budget can sap a team. Williams didn't have the resources to press another car into service and risk preparation for the Spanish GP. And the first crash was by a driver who was probably in a Williams for financial reasons (Nakajima - with Toyota connections).

ClarkFan

Very good point, ClarkFan, but I wouldn't want forumers to get the impression that Williams is a cash-strapped team. Far from it. The title sponsor is AT&T, one of the world's biggest corporations, and just this week the Royal Bank of Scotland extended its very lucrative sponsorship of Williams. So the team is a long way from being in the position that, say, Jordan were in a few years back, constantly worrying about meeting expenses and having to cut corners in every department.

Having said that, you are right, though, that if we were a Toyota or a Ferrari, the crashes of two cars would not bring a crucial test to an end. But let's not overdo it; Williams is well-funded, for all that.

ClarkFan

2nd May 2007, 22:15

Sorry if my tone seemed entirely negative, Gannex. I have actually been encouraged with Williams' performance this year, and hope that getting a works engine can help spark a rebound. But they are still well back of the spending leaders, and not being a major manufacturer of road cars, they can't afford to throw cash at problems like Toyota or Honda (or even BMW) can.

ClarkFan

Gannex

2nd May 2007, 23:13

I have actually been encouraged with Williams' performance this year, and hope that getting a works engine can help spark a rebound.

ClarkFan
I've also been encouraged, but of course when it comes to Williams, it's never a good idea to get your hopes up too high. But the relationship with Toyota seems to be going extremely well -- such a contrast to the way things were with BMW. And not only that, I think Alexander Wurz's contribution has been, and is going to continue to be huge. He is, in my view, one of the most under-estimated men in the paddock, and could turn out to be one of the key factors in a revival at Williams, if in fact there is the upturn in fortune that so many are hoping for.

Valve Bounce

2nd May 2007, 23:42

I've also been encouraged, but of course when it comes to Williams, it's never a good idea to get your hopes up too high. But the relationship with Toyota seems to be going extremely well -- such a contrast to the way things were with BMW.

Very good point there. BMW seemed to want to interfere with the running of the Williams team, whereas Toyota are well out of the Williams garage. I just hope that the Williams will be able to run with the BMW's during races.

Gannex

3rd May 2007, 00:45

I just hope that the Williams will be able to run with the BMW's during races.

Well yes, Valve, I do too, very much so. I must admit that I find the current success of BMW to be very disturbing, and the fact that they are frequently outpacing Williams to be utterly amazing and awful. BMW patronised Williams for so long, mocking the team's designers, insulting their staff, both to their faces and behind their backs, and insinuating at all times that they could do a better job themselves of producing a carbon-fibre F1 chassis.

That rankled at Grove. BMW, it was thought, might have designed a composite part here and there for their road cars, but the thought of them designing and fabricating an F1 monocoque, with no experience, was just laughable.

But it's BMW who are having the laughs right now. Every time a BMW finishes ahead of a Williams, it hurts.

trumperZ06

3rd May 2007, 01:01

Sleeper

3rd May 2007, 01:42

^Your forgetting that BMW worked with Williams to produce the transmission and electronincs as well, and that didnt turn out to well as, for whatever reason, the two just didnt seem to work well together. As for BMW's offer of extra engineers, without F1 experience and the knowledge of these complex cars I think that would have held them back in sorting the problems.

kalasend

3rd May 2007, 02:01

Am I too far-fetched to speculate that the Sauber squad are probably more talented than the Williams, but had been limited financially until BMW cashed in?

Valve Bounce

3rd May 2007, 02:03

:D BMW wanted to WIN in Formula 1 !!!

;) If memory serves...

When Williams were having major problems with the car not performing due to both their chassis/aero...

BMW offered to provide engineers & top end computer modeling...

Williams as much as said to them... we DON'T need help from BMW...

ending their relationship !!!

Quite right. However, we must remember that Frank Williams is used to being successful on his own, and not through "interference" from his engine supplier.
Frank was very unfortunate that he was stricken with unreliability issues last year which sapped the confidence of his entire team. I felt it was very unfortunate that Mark Webber left his team as Mark is a true trier and battler.
Quite honestly, I don't rate Rosberg that highly, certainly not as high as Nick Heidfeld (after I've had my rude awakening to Nick's ability).
Frank's big problem is that he doesn't like paying his drivers, and it has been rumoured that BMW picked Ralfie's salary tab, and now he is running both Rosberg and Wurz on next to zero out of his own pocket.
Kubica was a revelation last year, very fast, and Nick, I think, will be a winner. I find it difficult to picture either Wurz and/or Rosberg on the top step of the podium unless some disaster demolishes the top half of the grid.

Hawkmoon

3rd May 2007, 03:21

Am I too far-fetched to speculate that the Sauber squad are probably more talented than the Williams, but had been limited financially until BMW cashed in?

I think you might not be too far from the truth. Sauber had a habit of starting seasons very strongly but fading by midseason. This was often put down to a lack of resources preventing proper development of the car.

Now, with BMW financial backing, they are able to continue developing the car and have put themselves firmly in third place with the ability to knock off a Ferrari or McLaren on occasion. And that's in only their second season togther.

jens

3rd May 2007, 17:06

Am I too far-fetched to speculate that the Sauber squad are probably more talented than the Williams, but had been limited financially until BMW cashed in?

Good question. To me "private Sauber" always seemed to have a lot of potential considering what they achieved with their small budget (in Top6 in the WCC from 2001-2004). Williams on the contrary seemed to struggle in building a competitive chassises, when they had a partnership with BMW, who was known to have one of the best engines (if not the best).

Sauber-BMW is gradually getting better as did the combination of Williams-BMW from 2000-2003. That combination just missed out championship title and it would be interesting to see whether that Sauber-BMW combination can do better.

Williams on the other hand has managed to better their reputation as a chassis builder and now it's their turn to be in similar position, where Sauber had to stay for many years - a mid-field team. Interesting to see that for how long will they stay there and whether one day we see Williams getting involved in a strong partnership with car manufacturer again. Probably Williams fans here are wishing Toyota to abandon its own team and start concentrating on Williams?

Gannex

3rd May 2007, 18:45

Probably Williams fans here are wishing Toyota to abandon its own team and start concentrating on Williams?

Not this Williams fan, jens. Toyota have been very cooperative with Williams, sharing information quite openly, on the theory that both teams benefit from being able to compare the effectiveness of different approaches to engine packaging, heat dissipation, and so on.

It's very different to the attitude Ferrari took towards Sauber, when Sauber were running Ferrari engines. Then, Ferrari gave Sauber a very good unit, but when it came to additional help, Ferrari had a policy of saying nothing, telling Sauber that how they incorporated the engine into the chassis was none of Ferrari's business, and a subject on which Ferrari would offer no help.

If Toyota were acting in that same way towards Williams, I would feel, as you suggest, that it would be preferable that Toyota supply ONLY Williams, but, given the tremendous partnership approach that Toyota are taking, I can only say that it is to Williams's advantage that Toyota engines are running in two different chassis.

Sleeper

3rd May 2007, 19:32

Am I too far-fetched to speculate that the Sauber squad are probably more talented than the Williams, but had been limited financially until BMW cashed in?
Sauber were always a good team (their Group C sportscars with Mercedes proved that) but its also worth remembering that BMW have been on a massive recruitment drive since they bought Sauber. For, instence their aero department could only man the windtunnel for one shift in three, now its manned 24 hours a day.

ioan

4th May 2007, 11:02

It's very different to the attitude Ferrari took towards Sauber, when Sauber were running Ferrari engines. Then, Ferrari gave Sauber a very good unit, but when it came to additional help, Ferrari had a policy of saying nothing, telling Sauber that how they incorporated the engine into the chassis was none of Ferrari's business, and a subject on which Ferrari would offer no help.

Than how is that the 2004 Sauber was almost a copy of the 2003 Ferrari?!

Why are Toyota opened towards Williams? Because they have troubles with their car and Williams might help them.

As long as we do not know what was written in the Ferrari-Sauber agreement we should not criticize them.

jso1985

5th May 2007, 00:19

I remember an article in F1 racing magazine where Ferrari admited they didn't mind Sauber copying their 2003 car(or at least some parts of it) but they didn't help them with anything, all they did was giving them the engine and the gearbox

janneppi

5th May 2007, 08:25

Not this Williams fan, jens. Toyota have been very cooperative with Williams, sharing information quite openly, on the theory that both teams benefit from being able to compare the effectiveness of different approaches to engine packaging, heat dissipation, and so on.

It's very different to the attitude Ferrari took towards Sauber, when Sauber were running Ferrari engines. Then, Ferrari gave Sauber a very good unit, but when it came to additional help, Ferrari had a policy of saying nothing, telling Sauber that how they incorporated the engine into the chassis was none of Ferrari's business, and a subject on which Ferrari would offer no help.

If Toyota were acting in that same way towards Williams, I would feel, as you suggest, that it would be preferable that Toyota supply ONLY Williams, but, given the tremendous partnership approach that Toyota are taking, I can only say that it is to Williams's advantage that Toyota engines are running in two different chassis.

What are the odds of Frank Williams packing it in and selling his team to Toyota? He's not getting any younger and with Ron Dennis propably wanting someone to go fishing with him in the next few years time, it might be tempting to let go.

It almost seems that Toyota are waiting to do what BMW did with Sauber.

Gannex

8th May 2007, 00:28

What are the odds of Frank Williams packing it in and selling his team to Toyota? He's not getting any younger and with Ron Dennis propably wanting someone to go fishing with him in the next few years time, it might be tempting to let go.

It almost seems that Toyota are waiting to do what BMW did with Sauber.

I think, janneppi, that if Toyota were to

(1) offer a decent price for Williams
(2) promise to keep Williams's staff, adding to them, rather than replacing them
(3) promise that the Grove facilities would remain operational, so that Williams's staff could remain employed in the UK, rather than moving to Cologne

then the chances of Frank Williams and Patrick Head selling out are about 100%. But those are very big if's!!!

Dazz9908

8th May 2007, 01:50

I think, janneppi, that if Toyota were to

(1) offer a decent price for Williams
(2) promise to keep Williams's staff, adding to them, rather than replacing them
(3) promise that the Grove facilities would remain operational, so that Williams's staff could remain employed in the UK, rather than moving to Cologne

then the chances of Frank Williams and Patrick Head selling out are about 100%. But those are very big if's!!!
Don't forget Keeping the Name 'Williams'. We've lost to many great names, some tradition must be kept.

I hate to say it but If Williams go, then I would loose a lot of my interest in F1.

Gannex

8th May 2007, 13:16

Don't forget Keeping the Name 'Williams'. We've lost to many great names, some tradition must be kept.

Well, here we're speculating wildly about scenarios almost certain to never appear, but since this is the long gap between Grands Prix, why not?

I would think that if Toyota were to buy out Williams, they would not want to keep the Williams name, at least not for more than a year or two. It would dilute the identity of the Toyota team to have another great name attached.

I don't think Williams have the luxury of ensuring, at the time of a sell-out, that the name will survive. Eddie Jordan also wanted to keep the Jordan name alive in F1, but it didn't last long, did it? BMW still use Sauber's name, but I believe that agreement expires at the end of this year. The fact is, these names do disappear, and Williams will be no exception.

trumperZ06

9th May 2007, 20:55

I think, janneppi, that if Toyota were to

(1) offer a decent price for Williams
(2) promise to keep Williams's staff, adding to them, rather than replacing them
(3) promise that the Grove facilities would remain operational, so that Williams's staff could remain employed in the UK, rather than moving to Cologne

then the chances of Frank Williams and Patrick Head selling out are about 100%. But those are very big if's!!!

;) Hhmmmm.... IMO, Frank could have gotten a much better deal from BMW...

~ 3 years ago.

:dozey: The opportunity was there for BMW to "buy in"...
somewhat like the Mercedes deal that was with McLaren.

Williams was feeling some heat over their chassis not performing... but, as I recall, an offer was on the table.

jens

10th May 2007, 11:02

One question. In 2005 there were rumours that when Toyota starts an engine-relationship with Williams, they will advertise the engines with the name of Lexus. So in theory we should be seeing Williams-Lexus in official team names. Why haven't this happened?

trumperZ06

10th May 2007, 16:06