2017 Bahrain GP

[steveaki13]

So qualifying today. It again looks close between Ferrari & Mercedes however Hamilton seems to be having problems this weekend.

[Koz]

And Alonso's engine went bust...

[truefan72]

Observations after Q2
1. Mclaren continue to be an embarrassment. It is sad to see where this team is now.
2. Wehrlein proving to all why he is that good and Ericsson why he is the worst driver on the grid
3. Renault are looking good.
4. What's up with Force India?

[Koz]

Bottas takes pole!

[A FONDO]

Ferrari's fairytale is over. Third race in the season and already half a second behind Bottas. Expect the same 45 seconds when Catalunya comes.

[truefan72]

congrats bottas

[Klinsman]

Ferrari's fairytale is over. Third race in the season and already half a second behind Bottas. Expect the same 45 seconds when Catalunya comes.
Nah I think it's down to the fact that the Ferrari performs better when the track temperature is in the higher bracket, as in Australia I would say the Ferraris were definitely the faster car.

So Lewis and Valtteri need to make thier results count when they can because when the higher temp tracks arrive the Ferraris will be mighty.


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[Stan Reid]

congrats bottas

Further proof that Hamilton is highly overrated.

[steveaki13]

evening guys, girls and dawgs.

[Koz]

Hola.

Alonso's car has problems, back in the pits apparently. :(

[Tazio]

'Sup dawgz! McLaren is a mess Vandorn not racing. I looking forward to Fred moving to Renault :crazy:

[steveaki13]

Yep. Alonso must be fuming again.

Does anyone know if he is starting from the pits or whether its all over already?

[steveaki13]

sorry I thought it was Fred was not starting. Its Stoffel. Whatever Mclaren seem to have gotten worse again. How is that possible.

[Koz]

Here we go!

[steveaki13]

Bottas is slightly slower than Seb & Lewis and is holding up a great battle here. Red Bulls just in touch.

[Tazio]

Boss has closed down the leaders

[Koz]

Wow. 10 laps and the top 5 are within 2.6 seconds. Amazing.

[Tazio]

Adios Max

[steveaki13]

oh no brake failure.

Now Sainz Kobayashi's Stroll. As the car leaving the pits surely he has to slot in behind.

Hamilton in trouble

[Tazio]

What a freakin' mess

[truefan72]

useless mercedes strategy SMH
split the damn strategy fools

either pit hamilton early or pit bottas early to cover the ferrari.
instead, they do nothing and lose out, resulting in a double pit and shambolic failure'

at least RBR did the right thing.

Mercedes continue to eff up their strategy
so annoying

[Tazio]

Felipe baby!

[veeten]

5 sec penalty for Lewis...

[Koz]

Live timings down?

[AndyL]

Welcome to Mercedes, Valtteri

[truefan72]

finally mercedes release hamilton from slow man bottas ugh.
TBH i was hoping that bottas would be challenging vettel at the front slowing both of them down, but bottas just got slower lap after lap on the same tyres as vettel.
baffling lack of pace. SMH

[AndyL]

Live timings down?

Still working for me... first time I've used it this year, good to see the 3-decimal-place lap times have come back, and if you have 2 browser windows open you can see the intervals as well (nice UI design, FOM :rolleyes:)

[truefan72]

Live timings down?

yup. so frustrating. what am i paying $3/month for??

[longisland]

Again, Honda is doing disservice to Fred.
He has to pass Palmer twice

[steveaki13]

Palmer keeps knocking pieces of his wings off. Fred moans at Honda again.

[truefan72]

mercedes better stick to a 1 stop!

well...maybe not.
but if they are going to pit, now would be the time

[steveaki13]

I said early on to my father the race was over as soon as Vettel pulled the gap and the penalty. Shame we didnt get the wheel to wheel race between Seb & Lewis

[steveaki13]

mercedes better stick to a 1 stop!
WTF???

Vettel will catch him before the end and win whatever so may as well pit and save second.

[Koz]

Why haven't they pitted Hamilton yet?

This is silly. Everyone is more than a second a lap faster than him!

[Eli]

Isn't Hamilton supposed to take that 5 second stop & go drive thru pits penalty?

[AndyL]

Isn't Hamilton supposed to take that 5 second stop & go drive thru pits penalty?

If he doesn't pit again, the 5 seconds will be added on at the end. It's a 5 second time penalty, not a stop-and-go or a drive-through penalty.

[steveaki13]

Merecedes have been spoiled by racing only each other. Now they have to race other teams they appear to have no idea.... silly strategy could be costing Lewis 2nd and maybe 3rd if Kimi gets his act together

[truefan72]

Hamilton will need a VSC or SC to save his race.
the longer he stays out the worse it gets
it is lap 40. 17 laps left with super softs is doable
and a faster tyre.
they bothced the strategy as soon as vettel pitted and they did not react with either driver.
oh well.

p2 is still available if he pits soon.
and i am just dissapointed with borttas for not even being competitive with vettel

[Eli]

Ok thanks.

[truefan72]

Merecedes have been spoiled by racing only each other. Now they have to race other teams they appear to have no idea.... silly strategy could be costing Lewis 2nd and maybe 3rd if Kimi gets his act together

yup. and sadly no paddy lowe to blame it on

[steveaki13]

Lets face it. Vettel & Ferrari are plain faster. Pretty much every race.

In China he was 5th and got within 5 seconds of Hamilton. The other two races Seb has been miles ahead.

[truefan72]

bottas better move out the way quick...for good of the show ( snickering smile and wink lol)

[steveaki13]

Bottas one of the most silly places to let Hamilton through :p

Well Mercedes done the right thing in terms of putting Vettel under pressure. Thats all they can do and hope Seb makes a mistake. It is very unlikely.

[truefan72]

at the end of the day. hamilton did cost himself the 5 seconds. and that might be the difference.

[AndyL]

at the end of the day. hamilton did cost himself the 5 seconds. and that might be the difference.

Lewis backed off at the end so it doesn't look like his penalty is to blame :)

[Tazio]

Congrat's Vet, well done!

[AndyL]

There were some pretty exciting scraps over nothing behind Ocon in the final points position.

[steveaki13]

I think Vettel had the pace at the key moment early in the race to take advantage of Merecedes poor strategy.

[AndyL]

I think Vettel had the pace at the key moment early in the race to take advantage of Merecedes poor strategy.

Yes you have to give Ferrari credit for going for an attacking strategy and making it work.

Someone pitted the lap before Vettel (Ocon?) and immediately did a purple middle sector on new soft tyres. At that point it was clear the undercut would be powerful, and I think Ferrari reacted decisively to that.

[Tazio]

Bottas sucked in this race. Reunite Fred, and The Boss in 2018!

[Koz]

Why is Hamilton being booed?

[steveaki13]

Bottas sucked in this race. Reunite Fred, and The Boss in 2018!

Hell yer:monkeedan

[steveaki13]

Why is Hamilton being booed?

Isn't Hamilton always booed? I think most races I have heard that. Anyone know?

[pino]

Well done Vettel and Ferrari. Seasons getting exciting now :D

[truefan72]

the Mercedes in hamiton's hands, was clearly the faster car today but hampered by piss poor strategy and a self inflicted wound by hamilton's rash thinking. Although the first issue of not splitting the strategy caused the latter poor thinking.
There really needs to be better race management from mercedes. this has gone on for 3 years now. It is one thing to win races when you are miles ahead of the others in terms of pace and you can make up poor pit stops and shoddy strategy. But not in 2017. This one cost them the race, pure and simple. I don't care if they pitted Bottas first (he was the lead car and had the right to come in). In fact, the moment vettel pitted, bottas should have come in the next lap. He was already complaining about his tyres and would have covered vettel. Verstappen and RBR did it. but not arrogant mercedes. It was obvious for everyone to see what needs to be done but not toto and his gang of fools.

Speaking of Bottas. he was shambolic today IMO. If there was ever a race for him to win, challenge vettel and announce himself part of the WDC fight, this was it. He accomplished none of the three and firmly placed himself as a #2 driver. couldn't manage his tyres and let vettel sprint away on identical tyres after the safety car. He simply wilted like a frail flower and opens the door to that 2018 seat.

Kudos to vettel for driving a solid race. As well as for kimi to clawing back from Ferrari Vettel myopia . But missed opportunities are what i take from this race.

Force india bounced back well
Sainz was completely at fault
Mclaren are just an embarrassment

[truefan72]

Hell yer:monkeedan

yup

[yodasarmpit]

Much better race again, Aus was such a low point.

As for Lewis he cost himself the chance with the 5 second penalty, but not sure why the team didn't send him out on super softs for the last stint?

[Koz]

but not sure why the team didn't send him out on super softs for the last stint?

Because Bottas was struggling with them. Based on the times he was doing, it was probably the right call.

Why he was left out for so long on his middle stint, considering he was going on softs anyway, seems pointless - two or three or more laps earlier could have won him the race.

[N4D13]

What do you think about the Stroll-Sainz crash? I'm not so convinced that it was 100% Sainz's fault - it didn't really look like he overshot the corner, it's just that Lance wasn't expecting him there. IMHO it was an overoptimistic attempt by the Spaniard, but a wiser driver than Stroll would have given a bit room there, especially considering that they would be fighting for position and thus a dive was not out of the question.

[Duncan]

(Aside: Hey everybody! It seems like forever since I've posted here. Been checking in now and again, but have had an extended period of being super busy...)

Anyway, seems like this season is shaping up to be a great one. It's about time we had some real racing, and it looks like we're going to see much more of it.

Really interesting race today. Mercedes still seem to have the pace, but are being let down mostly by terrible strategic calls, whereas Ferrari seem to have mostly got their act together on that front. Hamilton's driving in slowly was not that smart, but the penalty seemed harsh in the circumstances; he was behind the safety car for one, and no advantage was gained thanks to a slow stop in any event. Nonetheless, that situation should really never have arisen in the first place. What was Mercedes thinking stacking the pit stops like that?

It's almost like they have been able to get away with much on the strategic front up until now by virtue of overwhelming on-track pace, and now they can't do that any more their strategic deficiencies are being highlighted. They have been able to try to treat both drivers equally and finish 1/2 many times in the past few seasons. Kind of thinking that they need to choose at this point. Ferrari wouldn't have stacked Vettel behind Raikkonen if they were in the same situation. Bottas is good, but I really don't think he's in Hamilton's league.

Also: McLaren. Oy vey.

Anyway, not exactly much to complain about from a fan's viewpoint today. On to Sochi!

[Duncan]

What do you think about the Stroll-Sainz crash? I'm not so convinced that it was 100% Sainz's fault - it didn't really look like he overshot the corner, it's just that Lance wasn't expecting him there. IMHO it was an overoptimistic attempt by the Spaniard, but a wiser driver than Stroll would have given a bit room there, especially considering that they would be fighting for position and thus a dive was not out of the question.

When I first saw it, I thought that maybe Stroll had turned in too sharply, but then you look at where Sainz was coming from at turn in and I really don't think he should have been there. The whole thing looks eerily reminiscent of the Maldonado-Gutierrez incident at the same corner.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4o9TYzGy_q0

[N4D13]

Yup, I guess that sounds about fair. The FIA seems to have the same viewpoint, as Sainz has been handed a 3-place grid penalty for Sochi.

[journeyman racer]

Ferrari's fairytale is over. Third race in the season and already half a second behind Bottas. Expect the same 45 seconds when Catalunya comes.

This is an interesting comment in hindsight ;)

[journeyman racer]

finally mercedes release hamilton from slow man bottas ugh.
TBH i was hoping that bottas would be challenging vettel at the front slowing both of them down, but bottas just got slower lap after lap on the same tyres as vettel.
baffling lack of pace. SMH
Slow man Bottas?

You mean pole man Bottas?

[journeyman racer]

mercedes better stick to a 1 stop!

well...maybe not.
but if they are going to pit, now would be the time
You should get a job as their strategist, as opposed to whining on here.

[journeyman racer]

bottas better move out the way quick...for good of the show ( snickering smile and wink lol)

Confirmation of fanboyism and a theatergoer.

[journeyman racer]

Yes you have to give Ferrari credit for going for an attacking strategy and making it work.


Its the advantage of not having the best car. You can be more aggressive with pit strategies.

[journeyman racer]

the Mercedes in hamiton's hands, was clearly the faster car today but hampered by piss poor strategy and a self inflicted wound by hamilton's rash thinking. Although the first issue of not splitting the strategy caused the latter poor thinking.
There really needs to be better race management from mercedes. this has gone on for 3 years now. It is one thing to win races when you are miles ahead of the others in terms of pace and you can make up poor pit stops and shoddy strategy. But not in 2017. This one cost them the race, pure and simple. I don't care if they pitted Bottas first (he was the lead car and had the right to come in). In fact, the moment vettel pitted, bottas should have come in the next lap. He was already complaining about his tyres and would have covered vettel. Verstappen and RBR did it. but not arrogant mercedes. It was obvious for everyone to see what needs to be done but not toto and his gang of fools.

Speaking of Bottas. he was shambolic today IMO. If there was ever a race for him to win, challenge vettel and announce himself part of the WDC fight, this was it. He accomplished none of the three and firmly placed himself as a #2 driver. couldn't manage his tyres and let vettel sprint away on identical tyres after the safety car. He simply wilted like a frail flower and opens the door to that 2018 seat.


Instead of being butt hurt over MB strategy and taking a dump on Bottas (who'll take half the season to get up speed being good in a good car). Why don't you get butt hurt over Hamilton not getting pole, therefore denying himself the best opportunity to win the race?

[steveaki13]

What do you think about the Stroll-Sainz crash? I'm not so convinced that it was 100% Sainz's fault - it didn't really look like he overshot the corner, it's just that Lance wasn't expecting him there. IMHO it was an overoptimistic attempt by the Spaniard, but a wiser driver than Stroll would have given a bit room there, especially considering that they would be fighting for position and thus a dive was not out of the question.

How does Stroll know he is there though?

He was not in his mirrors down the straight because he excited the pits. Then he came from a fair distance back. Unless the team tells him which he can not control then he had no way of knowing a car had appeared there and so can not be blamed really. Dont forget cars exiting the pits also have blue flags waved at them leaving the pits instructing to give way to cars at racing speeds on the track. It must be the driver coming of of the pits job to slot in safely.

Shame cos Sainz has been good this season.

[Rollo]

Dont forget cars exiting the pits also have blue flags waved at them leaving the pits instructing to give way to cars at racing speeds on the track. It must be the driver coming of of the pits job to slot in safely.


+1 This.

If this was in the real world and on a motorway in NSW, Sainz would be charged with:

- Failing to give way while merging
- Failure to Reduce Speed to Avoid an Colision

Fault from an insurance perspective almost always goes to the car behind; that was Sainz.

[Rollo]

Mclaren are just an embarrassment

I think that the McLaren is fine, it's the Honda engines which are rubbish. Honda has reverted to being Honda. They are a company of tinkerers. We saw this when Button last drove for them.

[zako85]

I think that the McLaren is fine, it's the Honda engines which are rubbish. Honda has reverted to being Honda. They are a company of tinkerers. We saw this when Button last drove for them.


In the opinion of many automotive journalists, Honda is not just a company run by the tinkering engineers, but it's also the company composed of the most stubborn ones. These people religiously believe that their way is the right way, and they keep on doing things their way, always. Another problem is that according to many, Honda lost its way some time in the early 00s. They really should have moved their F1 engine building business into UK. At this point, Honda's involvement in F1 is looking just very bad. Their current return into F1 is looking worse than Porsche's in 1991. How could such great automotive companies go so wrong..

[zako85]

Here is the question for the experts: which drivers did not screw up something and run a great race from beginning to the end?

[steveaki13]

Felipe baby?

Sent from my GT-I9301I using Tapatalk

[schmenke]

Because Bottas was struggling with them. Based on the times he was doing, it was probably the right call..

My understanding is that the only super-softs he had remaining was a used set.

[N4D13]

From what I read, Sky is reporting that Alonso didn't retire the car due to a genuine reliability problem, but that it was a protest against the team for giving him a dog unable to finish in the points.

As much as I am aware that he is a prima donna, this sounds a bit too hard to be real. But then again, I wonder why Sky would report this without some kind of evidence.

[Duncan]

From what I read, Sky is reporting that Alonso didn't retire the car due to a genuine reliability problem, but that it was a protest against the team for giving him a dog unable to finish in the points.

As much as I am aware that he is a prima donna, this sounds a bit too hard to be real. But then again, I wonder why Sky would report this without some kind of evidence.

I can't say I could blame him if he did something like that, but it didn't look to me like that's what happened. He was in 12th, and then appeared to suddenly lose ground dramatically, dropping to 14th in the space of a few corners. Of course, he could have just decided "screw it, I'm done" and backed off, but I wouldn't have thought he would do that so close to the end while in 12th, with the possibility of other retirements ahead of him.

He didn't have a *total* engine failure; rather there was a sudden and non-catastrophic drop in power, and maybe he could have limped to the end rather than pulling in to the garage. Maybe somebody is reporting on that?

[journeyman racer]

Racing tends to be static. A lot of the drivers performance is dictated by their cars and whatever problems they have. Also by taking advantage of others misfortune. There's not many opportunities for the driver to influence the result.

So with that in mind. For someone unproven like Bottas. I thought his start and entry into the first corner, and first few laps, was of sufficient authority that it gives an indication he could've done more without any tyre issues. The start and first corner entry was a moment where he could falter if he wasn't up to it.

[Bagwan]

From what I read, Sky is reporting that Alonso didn't retire the car due to a genuine reliability problem, but that it was a protest against the team for giving him a dog unable to finish in the points.

As much as I am aware that he is a prima donna, this sounds a bit too hard to be real. But then again, I wonder why Sky would report this without some kind of evidence.

During the broadcast , they mentioned that they had heard reports that some Spanish friends of Zo had said that he would retire on the last lap as a protest if there was no way to get points .
I understand he has denied doing so .

Of course , given that they are so far behind , and were set to test at the track the next day , it would have been a good decision to have retired because having it in the garage for the trophy ceremonies instead of out there for the duration , giving the mechanics far more time to work .
Smart move , really , even if the only "problem" he encountered was being under-powered .

[AndyL]

The un-edited radio transcript reveals all:
Alonso: Engine problem, I am retiring the car
McLaren: What's the engine problem Fernando?
Alonso: The problem is it has a big H on the top

[N. Jones]

Bernie used to complain about people not being able to see the race in certain places. Look at Bahrain, there are stands only on the start finish straight!
Yeah, the races here have been good but still...

[jens]

The un-edited radio transcript reveals all:
Alonso: Engine problem, I am retiring the car
McLaren: What's the engine problem Fernando?
Alonso: The problem is it has a big H on the top

Wait...

That's actually true?

:rotflmao:

Alonso tries hard to make Honda sack him. But he probably doesn't care - getting sacked by Honda would rather be a blessing for him. :D

[A FONDO]

getting sacked by Honda would rather be a blessing for him. :D

I am not sure about that. If they get Merc engine next year, they could suddenly begin fighting with Force India for the 4th place.

[AndyL]

Wait...

That's actually true?

:rotflmao:

Sean Spicer assures me that it is absolutely true :smokin:

It is interesting, though, that Fernando's radio messages during the race seem to be the one area immune to memos from the PR department. Like everyone else in McLaren, he never openly criticises Honda in interviews, but for 90 minutes on a Sunday it seems he's allowed to just go to town on them.

[Duncan]

Meanwhile, at the post-race test, McLaren managed to almost complete 2 laps with the new and improved engine before bringing the car back to the garage and needing... another new engine. Eventually managed to get in 15 or so laps at the end of the day, apparently at reduced power.

Good lord. If that engine was a horse, they'd shoot it.

[jens]

Good lord. If that engine was a horse, they'd shoot it.

That's the problem. There are even no horses in that engine to beat...

I'll get my coat.

[Rollo]

In the opinion of many automotive journalists, Honda is not just a company run by the tinkering engineers, but it's also the company composed of the most stubborn ones. These people religiously believe that their way is the right way, and they keep on doing things their way, always.

I remember Eddie Lawson, Wayne Gardner and Mick Doohan all complaining about this very thing. They'd complain to the engineers who'd have a tinker and then it would be wrong in an entirely different way.

[KevinR]

Race was great. I was lucky enough to see it live as I was there. Vettel was amazing... This season is really fun to watch.

[Owain]

In the opinion of many automotive journalists, Honda is not just a company run by the tinkering engineers, but it's also the company composed of the most stubborn ones. These people religiously believe that their way is the right way, and they keep on doing things their way, always. Another problem is that according to many, Honda lost its way some time in the early 00s. They really should have moved their F1 engine building business into UK. At this point, Honda's involvement in F1 is looking just very bad. Their current return into F1 is looking worse than Porsche's in 1991. How could such great automotive companies go so wrong..

I don't think Honda are any exception in that respect.

BMW divorced from Williams because they were adamant that they could do a better job of running a team. Within five years they were gone from F1, while Williams have recovered a great deal and are still with us. Toyota made some crazy decisions (e.g. basing themselves in Germany) when running their own team, and would probably have done better had they become an engine supplier instead. Ferrari stuck with V12 engines for years when it was almost universally acknowledged that V10s provided the best compromise between power and fuel efficiency, but had the good sense to eventually admit that they were wrong.

However, being stubborn can sometimes work out. When Renault introduced turbos they were a laughing stock. Within half a decade, they were world championship contenders, and all the other competitive cars also had turbo power.

Either way, I hope that McLaren and/or Honda sort things out. It has been painful to see someone as talented as Alonso wasting away in the midfield.

[Rollo]

However, being stubborn can sometimes work out. When Renault introduced turbos they were a laughing stock. Within half a decade, they were world championship contenders, and all the other competitive cars also had turbo power.

Renault also did this:

http://motorbase.s3.amazonaws.com/pictures/contributions/991201/std_78_renault-alpine_a442b.jpg

They took their EF engine, enlarged it and then ran it in a far harder laboratory until it broke. They only found reliability in F1 after they'd been to Le Mans.

Honda haven't yet taken their engine to Le Mans to try and break it.