Next regulations for WRC cars [Archive]

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Ctesibios

26th February 2017, 14:21

What will the next generation of WRC cars be like? A place to share ideas, speculations, rumors, wishes on the subject.

It seems unavoidable for at least part of the drivetrain to become electrified!

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/128250/no-hybrids-in-wrc-for-at-least-five-years

skarderud

26th February 2017, 16:30

An R5+ with bigger wing and hybridsolution to use at the roadsections.

Sent fra min XP7700 via Tapatalk

Munkvy

26th February 2017, 19:04

Surely they could be doing little things like converting to ethanol based fuels in the interim? As far as I am aware the current WRC Panta fuel isn't? But Panta do sell E85.

As for the car technology, perhaps some sort of KERS system? Given the amount of braking a WRC car does, that could have benefits? But I agree that it seems rather difficult to electrify a WRC car, given the distance and conditions they travel through.

Mirek

26th February 2017, 19:08

Why shall they run on E85? What should be the reason?

Also why shall they use hybrids? There is nothing good about them. They are only overcomplicated and extremely expensive.

janvanvurpa

26th February 2017, 19:09

2 months into the current new spec cars and endless chatter on what the current new rules means and already we're supposed to think of what the next thing will be..

There was a book "The New New Thing"

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/514TYfGDANL._SX310_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

danon

26th February 2017, 21:34

next level >>> https://youtu.be/4wSG3m4VNlo

https://scontent-amt2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/12079851_898850726836771_2687990253003458160_o.jpg ?oh=30d034a5339db3fc974eb03f2d4e07ac&oe=593FD212

Munkvy

26th February 2017, 23:23

Why shall they run on E85? What should be the reason?

To promote using a more environmentally friendly fuel that is sustainable? It happened in V8 Supercars down this way several years ago and they used it as a good bit of PR for the sport.

After all it's not like the interest in hybrid technology is because people think it's faster. It's because it's more likely to be accepted in the longer term as people are conscious of the limited resources our planet has.

danon

26th February 2017, 23:31

danon

27th February 2017, 01:12

Here's the solution - electronic sound enhancer/noise amplifier

Faking It: Engine-Sound Enhancement Explained - http://www.caranddriver.com/features/faking-it-engine-sound-enhancement-explained-tech-dept

2017 Ford Fiesta ST with an "electronic sound enhancer"- http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/news/a32726/new-2017-ford-fiesta-st/

WRC teams will need a DJ to create and develop unique car noise.
If you are a DJ apply for the new job :D

Mirek

27th February 2017, 09:05

To promote using a more environmentally friendly fuel that is sustainable? It happened in V8 Supercars down this way several years ago and they used it as a good bit of PR for the sport.

After all it's not like the interest in hybrid technology is because people think it's faster. It's because it's more likely to be accepted in the longer term as people are conscious of the limited resources our planet has.

So far nobody convinced me that bio fuels or supercomplicated hybrids, which are basically cars for first user only, are truly more ecologic solution. Simple pure electric cars are different case.

Anyway talking about ecology in case of motorsport is nothing but hypocrisy. Let's be honest. If FIA wanted to be more ecological it can start with replacing ALS with electric turbochargers. The fact is that that those few rarely running racing cars make no difference in comparison with millions of stock cars.

Ctesibios

28th February 2017, 02:32

I don't know if anyone else here ever had an electric radio controlled car, but I have been waiting for the full scale version ever since that day. I don't think most people realize the potential of a fully electric race car. One day there will be a 4wd vehicle with 4 motors, one for each wheel with a degree of control never seen before on a rally car.

Ok, it's not for 2018, but it will come one day. In the meantime, there will most likely be an interim solution. Manufacturers will be asking for this. I would rather see a jump straight to EV, but a hybrid with an accent on the development of the electric drive would be an interesting compromise. Something like a standard 1 l turbo engine/generator with free development of the electric drive. Through the years, the available power of the combustion engine would be reduced similar to what is happening in the FIA World Endurance Championship.

Ctesibios

28th February 2017, 03:24

Some of the best cars with electric propulsion can be found at the Pikes Peak Hill Climb.

https://transportevolved.com/2016/06/28/new-electric-car-records-set-at-pikes-peak-as-electric-cars-dominate-race-to-the-top/

https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=AvauqWkCqo8

Ctesibios

28th February 2017, 03:34

So far nobody convinced me that bio fuels or supercomplicated hybrids, which are basically cars for first user only, are truly more ecologic solution. Simple pure electric cars are different case.

Anyway talking about ecology in case of motorsport is nothing but hypocrisy. Let's be honest. If FIA wanted to be more ecological it can start with replacing ALS with electric turbochargers. The fact is that that those few rarely running racing cars make no difference in comparison with millions of stock cars.
Mirek, I agree. I think hybrids are a way for current manufacturers to save face. I like EVs because I think they are better and they will be faster. I'm not into this to save the planet or any other ridiculous environmental claim. Yes it will help with air pollution, but will also create a whole new set of problems for us to deal with in the future.

Ctesibios

28th February 2017, 03:38

Ctesibios

28th February 2017, 03:51

The biggest drawback of hybrids or fully-electric WRC cars would be the lack of engine sound/noise from the coming car on a special stage wich is 90% of the thrill all rally fans are longing for. The noise of the closing beast is everything... https://youtu.be/Xe0uPHIpQEo ... I would say... but yet I am pretty sure one day they would come up with a solution like artificial sound system or amplifying the E-sound...

Edit: mute the video and you'll get the full-electric "thrill"
I know, I have seen footage from the the group B era time and time again and I still like watching it... listening to it! Turbochargers and all wheel drive were all the rage then, today is different and tomorrow will be different still. Once you stop thinking about it, you forget it and focus on other things. If not us, then the next generation.

I'm already looking forward to the next set of rules and how the teams will interpret them. And it doesn't prevent me from enjoying the current championship as it's lining up to be a great year!

stefanvv

28th February 2017, 10:26

"Sounds ridiculous" (oh the pun!), but I was surprised to see how many of the current performance cars use sound enhancers! (VW, BMW, etc.)

This is for safety reasons. The cars must be heard coming.

Mirek

28th February 2017, 11:55

This is for safety reasons. The cars must be heard coming.

For safety reason in Octavia RS? It's not for safety reason it's for sounding sexier. Sadly most of the carmakers use them in some performance models.

stefanvv

28th February 2017, 13:03

For safety reason in Octavia RS? It's not for safety reason it's for sounding sexier. Sadly most of the carmakers use them in some performance models.

Oh, I meant for electric cars. AUDI few years ago was developing sound system for their e-tron cars.

Mirek

28th February 2017, 13:25

Simmi

28th February 2017, 13:50

Yes, for electric cars it is for pedestrian safety but frankly I find it quite ridiculous (even though somewhat necessary). In the future You may download Your vehicle sound just like a ringtone. Imagine a Toyota Prius with Ferrari sound or maye ZIL truck instead :D

In a Renault Clio you can already pick from six different engine noises - including the Nissan GT-R.

http://jalopnik.com/the-renault-clio-gives-you-the-fake-engine-sounds-of-yo-1697053915

Mirek

28th February 2017, 14:04

Don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Gregor-y

28th February 2017, 15:37

Yes, for electric cars it is for pedestrian safety but frankly I find it quite ridiculous (even though somewhat necessary). In the future You may download Your vehicle sound just like a ringtone. Imagine a Toyota Prius with Ferrari sound or maye ZIL truck instead :D

Why stop with engine noises?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hz-KwtKRBUY

I'd like to see more performance with straight electrics. With a motor on each wheel the power distribution could be very precise. The hard part is still batteries and charging, which really should be getting solved after forty years. Competition is a good stage for development and display.

janvanvurpa

28th February 2017, 16:11

, but will also create a whole new set of problems for us to deal with in the future.

Yeah like dealing with a toxic waste site any time a car rolls and hits anything, maybe dealing with driver and co-driver suffering from flesh-eating acid burns, ruined lungs from vapours after crash, eyes melted away, mechanics being acid burned...

I wonder if any of the usually over-the-top-fan-bois of electric vehicles have ever seen cars in wrecking yards of badly crashed--wait? WELL crashed rally cars?

Gregor-y

28th February 2017, 16:16

Of course not. In the US they're just re-built and run again until they literally fall to pieces. ;)

Mirek

28th February 2017, 16:51

Yeah like dealing with a toxic waste site any time a car rolls and hits anything, maybe dealing with driver and co-driver suffering from flesh-eating acid burns, ruined lungs from vapours after crash, eyes melted away, mechanics being acid burned...

I wonder if any of the usually over-the-top-fan-bois of electric vehicles have ever seen cars in wrecking yards of badly crashed--wait? WELL crashed rally cars?

Corect me if I'm wrong but most of the batteries used in hybrids or electric cars are lithium based and have no acid in them. The safety issue with them is high flamability when pierced but IMO that's not very different from gasoline fuel tanks.

sonnybobiche

28th February 2017, 17:26

Corect me if I'm wrong but most of the batteries used in hybrids or electric cars are lithium based and have no acid in them. The safety issue with them is high flamability when pierced but IMO that's not very different from gasoline fuel tanks.

Except Lithium ion batteries, unlike gasoline, are self-oxidizing, i.e. once they ignite there's no extinguishing them until they burn themselves out.

Not to mention they're extremely expensive, very heavy, quite dirty to manufacture, and basically nobody would have any interest in this technology if it wasn't for the government shoving it down our throats, either through regulation or massive subsidies.

That's just talking about hybrids. Electric cars are even worse, but for some reason nobody likes to say it. The range problem is virtually unsolvable, since there is no way for a battery to have the energy density of gasoline. It is literally physically impossible. It will never happen, because the laws of physics do not allow it. I don't know how else to say it.

Moreover the fact that a petrol-powered engine keeps chugging along nicely for decades, while a battery pack is basically ruined after a few years, raises questions about how financially viable this technology is.

And then there's the issue of where the electricity is coming from. In the United States, the majority of electricity is generated by coal-burning power plants. I cannot imagine a more inefficient, environmentally unfriendly mode of transportation than fully electric cars. Naturally, this is what the government thinks is the future. Because they're such clever people.

Mirek

28th February 2017, 18:23

Nothing is black and white. Fact is that especially diesel cars are killing for cities, petrol cars are better but for cities the electricity definitely is better than fosile fuels.

The production of electricity is getting less and less coal dependant, at least in Europe, here in CZ it's roughly 40% of electricity, in Austria which is our neighbour it's only roughly 25% and the percentage is changing every year with coal share decreasing. I'm not going to discuss if coal burnt in a power plant with anti-sulphur filtering etc. is worse than the same energy produced by cars. I don't have any relevant data in my hand and I'm not going to throw some bullshit around. For sure it's better not to send the exhalation directly in the streets (cold diesel engines in morning the traffic jams is something).

Battery production is for sure a problem and not ecological at all but the battery technologies are developing rather quickly so in a decade or two we might speak different way.

It's quite pointless to bring the point about petrol engines being around for decades while batteries die way quicker. Modern cars are not anymore built for being used for decades. No matter if they are gasoline or diesel or whatever. The cars are now just a common goods and their durability is corresponding (at least in Europe). It's not only the durability but also for example the multimedia stuff onboard which is getting old pretty quickly and sadly that's one of the things which sell cars nowadays. As a result there is definitely a huge overproduction of cars and in the end even overproduction of gasoline cars which are going to be changed every five years has nothing to do with ecology.

Anyway there is for sure no electric solution for large-distance travel for near future mainly due to the long time necessary for recharging/low capacity of regarging stations even theoretically possible to be built around the main motorways. On the other hand as a person living in a big city I definitely welcome electrification of city trafic.

janvanvurpa

28th February 2017, 18:31

Except Lithium ion batteries, unlike gasoline, are self-oxidizing, i.e. once they ignite there's no extinguishing them until they burn themselves out.

Not to mention they're extremely expensive, very heavy, quite dirty to manufacture, and basically nobody would have any interest in this technology if it wasn't for the government shoving it down our throats, either through regulation or massive subsidies.

That's just talking about hybrids. Electric cars are even worse, but for some reason nobody likes to say it. The range problem is virtually unsolvable, since there is no way for a battery to have the energy density of gasoline. It is literally physically impossible. It will never happen, because the laws of physics do not allow it. I don't know how else to say it.

Moreover the fact that a petrol-powered engine keeps chugging along nicely for decades, while a battery pack is basically ruined after a few years, raises questions about how financially viable this technology is.

And then there's the issue of where the electricity is coming from. In the United States, the majority of electricity is generated by coal-burning power plants. I cannot imagine a more inefficient, environmentally unfriendly mode of transportation than fully electric cars. Naturally, this is what the government thinks is the future. Because they're such clever people.

Well sonnybeach, in defense of Merikuh--since I am half-merikun, when I have pointed out to the fans of Eel-lectric cars raving about "ZERO pollution" the nasty fact that the electricity they're filling their cars up with comes with high probablity from coal they very cleverly point out that we can't see the coal plant so everything is fine...

I didn't think of that.:arrows:

Remember dear comrades here, the only things that really matters in America is appearances..
If you don't see a coal-fired power plant,
then how could it be a problem..:love:?

Ctesibios

28th February 2017, 18:50

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and can rant all they want about EVs and hybrids. That being said, what are your thoughts on what will the next generation of WRC cars be like?

stefanvv

28th February 2017, 18:59

Franky

28th February 2017, 20:19

On the other hand the electrical energy is recoverable in some proportion by the kinetic energy, unlike petrol. Thought about that?

But how much energy is lost in transit from power plant to the car?

It's a vicious circle.

stefanvv

28th February 2017, 20:43

But how much energy is lost in transit from power plant to the car?

For sure there is some transformed into heat. But I can use the same analogy with the loss, with transferring the gasoline from refineries to the car. Truck also burn some resources You know, and is definitively not ecological.

Ctesibios

1st March 2017, 00:15

https://youtu.be/5844VCjRpv0

Ctesibios

1st March 2017, 00:37

http://redbullglobalrallycross.com/news/latestnews/red-bull-global-rallycross-add-electric-series-2018-season/

sonnybobiche

1st March 2017, 03:12

For now I see only the downside and ecological negatives towards electrical energy pointed out. On the flip side there has been much worse (I think) ecological disasters with much more direct impact on nature with the petrol industry. Everything has its pros and cons,

I'm no expert, but my suspicion is that the oil industry's failures (and nuclear's come to think of it) are magnified, while the so-called green energy industry gets a pass. In my parents' native country, a battery recycling plant (how much greener could you get!?) made Haina, Dominican Republic one of the ten most polluted cities on the planet. I bet you hadn't heard of that. But I bet you have heard of Exxon Valdez, Deepwater Horizon, Three Mile Island, and Fukushima. Fukushima, a "nuclear disaster" in which no one was killed, is what most people remember about that tsunami that killed 10,000 Japanese.

On the other hand the electrical energy is recoverable in some proportion by the kinetic energy, unlike petrol. Thought about that?

It's a good point, and I have thought about it. We can get energy from many sources, so what we're ultimately trying to balance is the price of this source vs that one (because the price reflects supply and demand). Whether the energy savings from regenerative braking justifies the expense of hybrid technology is something I'm not qualified to answer. But I can take a crack at it: petrol powered cars cost less than hybrids, even when the government throws $10,000 worth of subsidies at you. Even then, hybrids comprise a minuscule fraction of cars on the road today, suggesting that people still don't see the value there. Maybe that will change in the future, but I don't think we should try to force that change through regulation and taxation/subsidies, because maybe it isn't actually a good idea.

But we were talking about motorsport, right? Yeah, no, I don't care one bit for hybrids in motorsport. I would be mildly interested if they could actually beat normal cars on the merits, but they can't, so I'm not.

Mirek

1st March 2017, 08:18

One thing which is not mentioned is that for many countries without own sources getting rid of fossil fuels is getting rid of horrible dependence on states which wouldn't normally be seen as friendly at all but business is business and fuel is needed. This point is political and quite an off topic for rally forum but it shall be mentioned as it is one of the reasons why some countries are pushing for what they are pushing. It's not only some environmental populism.

mknight

1st March 2017, 09:37

Sorry for keeping the off-topic alive but reading about "unsolvable" electric range problems and "no electric solution for large-distance travel for near future mainly due to the long time necessary for recharging/low capacity of regarging stations even theoretically possible to be built around the main motorways" makes me wonder if you have been living in a cave for the last few years.

Teslas and the new Chevrolet Bolt/Opela Ampera-E have 400-500km range today. Tesla S has had it for FIVE years.
With Tesla Supercharger you charge about 270km range in 30 mins and there are newer and even faster charging standards being developed.

Sure if you want to drive 1000km it is still faster to drive a petrol car even with petrol filling and breaks/driver changes, but not by much, specially if you also stop to eat something. How many people drive for longer than 500km non-stop regularly?

As for the network this is just the map of stations built by a single private company, there are a few other networks as well.
http://www.teslarati.com/map/
"theoretically" possible?

The only real issue is the vehicle cost, which is pretty much directly related to the battery cost. Economy of scale will lower that. (If smartphone production numbers were in the thousands each one would cost 10k USD+). In this country the cost is "artificially" lowered by not taxing electric cars, results is that already now with the rather limited choice electric cars have had 15% market share for 3 years.

The safety issues are mostly related to fires in damaged batteries. With all the electric cars on the road now there are already statistics on that, turns out they dont burn more than petrol/diesel cars.

To get back on topic:

While changing the complete drivetrain is probably not a good idea at the moment, changing ALS to some sort of electric-assisted turbo should be a no-brainer.

Franky

1st March 2017, 09:48

mknight, your link pretty much shows that the moment you leave the old Europe, you are more than likely to have difficulties.

Mirek

1st March 2017, 09:54

mknight: You don't seem to understand my point. To refuel a petrol/diesel car it takes roughly 2 minutes. even with the very same number of refueling/recharging stations You are limited to roughly 30x lower traffic than today (assuming the combustion cars normally refuel after 500-800 km). In other words for the same traffic (to replace all combustion cars by electric ones on motorways) You need roughly 30x more recharging stations than for combustion cars. That's simply unfeasible. Also what are You going to do with hundreds of people waiting 0,5-1 hour on every recharging station?

PS The 500 km Tesla range is utopia. This is Tesla graph with dependence on speed:

https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/graph1.jpg

At common highway speed 130 km/h (81 mph) the ideal range is only 320 km (200 miles). Now add to that wind, heavy traffic with very unstable speed (typical German motorways), airco or heating, necessary safety range reserve and You can see that it might be often necessary to recharge after just 200 km or so. And I don't even speak about driving really fast as people in Germany are normally used to.

mknight

1st March 2017, 10:29

mknight, your link pretty much shows that the moment you leave the old Europe, you are more than likely to have difficulties.

There is this former colony on the other side of the Atlantic ;)

mknight: You don't seem to understand my point. To refuel a petrol/diesel car it takes roughly 2 minutes. even with the very same number of refueling/recharging stations You are limited to roughly 30x lower traffic than today (assuming the combustion cars normally refuel after 500-800 km). In other words for the same traffic (to replace all combustion cars by electric ones on motorways) You need roughly 30x more recharging stations than for combustion cars. That's simply unfeasible. Also what are You going to do with hundreds of people waiting 0,5-1 hour on every recharging station?
When you drive 800 km do you only use a 2 min stop? Well maybe you do but 95% of people will have 1-2 stops with toilet/food etc breaks. As I said right now with realistic breaks it is slightly slower in an electric car, but certainly not "unsolvable". Also even if you only stick to the current petrol station network. How much of the area where you can park is actually used for refuelling? 10%? With charging it is much easier to use the whole area. It's also much easier to build a dedicated charging station than a petrol station. In Germany petrol stations on motorways often have 50km or more between, at the same time there are parking areas much more often. Adding charging stands on all of them is not that much of a problem.

With electric car you have a fuel station in every garage and in some countries in pretty much every parking lot already now. This takes care of all the charging bare the (for most people) few long range trips. Yes if everyone has an electric car you need a lot of them, but as the numbers of cars is rising slowly the number of connection points has no problems keeping up.

It's somehow hard to take your "unfeasible" arguments seriously when every 5th car I meet every day is electric and when about 1/4 of the people I know drive them. When I look out of the window right now I see a parking lot with about 90 cars, out of these 20 are fully electric and they are all plugged in and there are some empty charging slots.

Sure a change like that doesn't happen over a few months, but here it's already well on the way.

EDIT: My Tesla driving colleague tells me he typically stopped after 250 km on autobahn. With 75 km/h average on normal roads around 400 km is normal. (Note that your graph is for 85 kwh). Anyway all this is just arguing about details, my point is.. it is certainly not unsolvable problem, neither range nor charging.

Franky

1st March 2017, 11:46

Mirek

1st March 2017, 12:08

When you drive 800 km do you only use a 2 min stop? Well maybe you do but 95% of people will have 1-2 stops with toilet/food etc breaks. As I said right now with realistic breaks it is slightly slower in an electric car, but certainly not "unsolvable".

Of course I do stop. But I don't need to wait half a day before 10 cars ahead of me recharge. You still don't understand what it takes to change all the traffic on motorways to electric. It's simply impossible to multiply all fuel station capacity by 30 in foreseeable future, mainly from financial reasons but only them. This is simple mathematical fact.

Also even if you only stick to the current petrol station network. How much of the area where you can park is actually used for refuelling? 10%? With charging it is much easier to use the whole area. It's also much easier to build a dedicated charging station than a petrol station. In Germany petrol stations on motorways often have 50km or more between, at the same time there are parking areas much more often. Adding charging stands on all of them is not that much of a problem.

Again 30x times bigger capacity is needed. You can't create that by a magic wand. We're speaking about huge change which needs money and time.

With electric car you have a fuel station in every garage and in some countries in pretty much every parking lot already now. This takes care of all the charging bare the (for most people) few long range trips. Yes if everyone has an electric car you need a lot of them, but as the numbers of cars is rising slowly the number of connection points has no problems keeping up.

The discussion is about long range traffic. I said already that I do support electrification of city traffic.

It's somehow hard to take your "unfeasible" arguments seriously when every 5th car I meet every day is electric and when about 1/4 of the people I know drive them. When I look out of the window right now I see a parking lot with about 90 cars, out of these 20 are fully electric and they are all plugged in and there are some empty charging slots.

Today roughly 1% of cars in Germany are electric (2015 it was 0,75%) and they are very seldom used on motorways. When I travel through Germany I often drive 160-180 km/h for long distances and I'm nowhere close to being the fastest. For example most my business trips take places in a German office some 400 km from my place. If You drive that sometimes twice per week You really do value the time You can safe on the trip. And that's pretty common for many people.

Sure a change like that doesn't happen over a few months, but here it's already well on the way.

It will take long, to create all infrastructure and also to change the people's mindset. It's not going to be prepared any time soon.

EDIT: My Tesla driving colleague tells me he typically stopped after 250 km on autobahn. With 75 km/h average on normal roads around 400 km is normal. (Note that your graph is for 85 kwh). Anyway all this is just arguing about details, my point is.. it is certainly not unsolvable problem, neither range nor charging.

It's no unsolvable but not in a near future. That was my point and I'm pretty sure that the carmakers see the very same issues which I named. In the end I work in automotive in an major R&D center which is dedicated mainly to the future driving systems.

Fact is that currently EVs are not suitable for long distance driving no matter how many charging stations you put on the route. Let's say you drive from Calais to Prague, pretty much 1100km on motorways. Google estimates it roughly as a 10 hour drive, so the average speed would be around 110km/h.

10 hours is feasible with several stops. I drive nearly every year Prague - Ypres which is nearly the same case (at least one way through Lilles). And I usually do it between 9 and 11 hours depending on the number of traffic jams on the road (common case sadly). That is without driving over 160 km/h in Germany and with driving within limits in Belgium and France (120/130).

For example when I drive to Ypres shakedown I can start in early morning and I still comfortably arrive one hour before start. If I shall use electric car I would need to set off one day before and take a sleep somewhere on the road. I also need to spend more time planning to be aware where I can recharge in the areas where I go to. It's not like it would be possible in every village.

mknight

1st March 2017, 12:11

Fact is that currently EVs are not suitable for long distance driving no matter how many charging stations you put on the route. Let's say you drive from Calais to Prague, pretty much 1100km on motorways. Google estimates it roughly as a 10 hour drive, so the average speed would be around 110km/h.

Mknight, you said your colleague did 250km stint on the Autobahn. So that would mean 4 stops with fully charged batteries. According to the Tesla website the supercharger charges the 90kW Model S in 75 minutes. So that would mean 5 hours (4x75min) of "resting" on top of the 10 hour drive. Having done that route, I'd say you'd normally make 3-4 stops as well, but none of them would last that long. Even a lunch stop isn't usually that long.

10 hour is without stops, so at best 11 hours with some stops (thats and average of 90 km/h). 75 min is for full charge, where the first 50% take 30 mins, so there is something to be gained, but even if you keep with 15 hours, that's 36% longer.
Is there a difference? Sure, petrol cars are faster for long range driving. Still VERY far from "no electric solution" and "unsolvable issues". Again, how often do most people drive that far. Once a year on a holiday? For typical weekend long range driving the range is enough.

Btw: 4630km in 55 hours = 88 km/h average:
https://arstechnica.com/cars/2016/09/cannonballing-coast-to-coast-in-a-tesla-90d-alex-roy-sets-a-new-record/

Mirek

1st March 2017, 12:15

10 hour is without stops, so at best 11 hours with some stops (thats and average of 90 km/h). 75 min is for full charge, where the first 50% take 30 mins, so there is something to be gained, but even if you keep with 15 hours, that's 36% longer.
Is there a difference? Sure, petrol cars are faster for long range driving. Still VERY far from "no electric solution" and "unsolvable issues". Again, how often do most people drive that far. Once a year on a holiday? For typical weekend long range driving the range is enough.

Btw: 4630km in 55 hours = 88 km/h average:
https://arstechnica.com/cars/2016/09/cannonballing-coast-to-coast-in-a-tesla-90d-alex-roy-sets-a-new-record/

It's not without stops. I take this exact trip often. 10 hours is feasible with some coffee/food brakes. I'm sometimes even faster without racing on German motorways.

mknight

1st March 2017, 12:53

It will take long, to create all infrastructure and also to change the people's mindset. It's not going to be prepared any time soon.

Mindset is obviously the biggest issue on this forum ;)

However, as I see every day around me both infrastructure and mindset can change really quickly.

The 30x FUEL station capacity being impossible is bullshit, not a "simple mathematical fact".
1. You can charge both at start point and at destination since average length of trip on motorways is 60 km (french statistics). So add every garage to the number of stations? And/or remove the cars that only charge at home and suddenly it's not 30x but more like 10x times.

2. On a typical petrol station you have some 6 places to fill petrol and as I mentioned in germany they are actually quite far between. On each highway parking lot there are some 60+ places for cars, and they are typically twice as many parking lots than petrol stations.
In this town there are 4 petrol stations with some 20 places each, at the same time there are right now about 150 charging points. (sure not all are as fast).

Also it's not like one day everyone drives petrol and second day everyone drives electric. With growing number of electric cars the number of chargers grows as well (as proved here). On the other hand there is a big difference between no charging place and at least one. If anything it's the very first step that is difficult. Yet for their own cars Tesla did this themselves.

Btw. the automotive industry has every reason to make the change as slow as possible. When you have invested in engine/gearbock etc. development the last thing you want to do is to throw it away and start doing something different. This is not meant as a conspiracy theory it's just a fact in every industry. Just like new generations of CPUs are only introduced after the old generation has generated enough income, even though 2-3 next generations are already developed. You sell the product you have as long as someone buys it.

Franky

1st March 2017, 13:04

janvanvurpa

1st March 2017, 18:19

n this country the cost is "artificially" lowered by not taxing electric cars, results is that already now with the rather limited choice electric cars have had 15% market share for 3 years.

To get back on topic:

Ah Alt-facts make it all the way to Motorsports forum rally section..

FIFTEEN per cent market share..
Seems odd and I'm up in the capital of the proposed country Ectopia...and i see lots of taxis zooming around that are Toiletta Priapus or whatever the things are

But 15%..

Let's see what Google says...

As of December 2016 , the U.S. has the world's third largest stock of plug-in passenger cars after China and Europe. The U.S. market share of plug-in electric passenger cars increased from 0.14% in 2011 to 0.62% in 2013. The plug-in segment reached a market share of 0.75% in 2014 and fell to 0.66% in 2015.

Doesn't look like 15% .Something must be wrong..Hmm I GOT IT! More research!

oh got I have to type for another whole 2 seconds---

OK..Look

Norway (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway), with a population of about 5.2 million, is the country with the highest plug-in electric car ownership per capita (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Per_capita) in the world,[11] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_car_use_by_country#cite_note-NorwayNYT-11)[48] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_car_use_by_country#cite_note-Top6Global2013-48) with a market concentration of 21.5 registered plug-in cars per 1,000 people, 3.6 times higher than California's, the leading American market, and exceeding the U.S. average concentration by 14.2 times.[81] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_car_use_by_country#cite_note-Calif062016-81)[82] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_car_use_by_country#cite_note-GlobalPerCapita072016-82)
In March 2014, Norway became the first country where over 1 in every 100 passenger cars on the roads is a plug-in electric.[83] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_car_use_by_country#cite_note-NorwayEVSales032014-83)[84] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_car_use_by_country#cite_note-84)

Clever boys there in Norge... But wait, those tricky bastids were not talking per cent...they switched to per 1000! Gotta watch those fawkin statiticians!

So California, the hottest electric car market in the whole of Fortress America™ has 0,597 electric cars per hundred..0.597%

That does quite seem like 15%...I admit its quite close but still optimistic..

Are t you a bot? Or a 50 cent man paid by electric vehicle manufacturer to make fake news?

That's the thing that I think is the really biggest problems with electric vehicles:
The absurd and childish exaggeration by their fans.

The casual "Oh every rest stop can be a charging station"--with one blink to think what the cost would be---and costs borne by the 99.4% who do NOT drive electric cars...

Likewise "Golly gee whiz, every car garage (snap) just like that...
Hardware costs nothing, labor costs nothing, meters and billing costs nothing just (snap)...

I just had to pass up a free lathe and a free milling machine because I couldn't afford to run 3 Phase electricity into the shop...I wonder how all that is so cheap to be care free in California..

So, are you a shill or a bot for Tesla?

Zeakiwi

1st March 2017, 18:55

Fact is that currently EVs are not suitable for long distance driving no matter how many charging stations you put on the route. Let's say you drive from Calais to Prague, pretty much 1100km on motorways. Google estimates it roughly as a 10 hour drive, so the average speed would be around 110km/h.

Mknight, you said your colleague did 250km stint on the Autobahn. So that would mean 4 stops with fully charged batteries. According to the Tesla website the supercharger charges the 90kW Model S in 75 minutes. So that would mean 5 hours (4x75min) of "resting" on top of the 10 hour drive. Having done that route, I'd say you'd normally make 3-4 stops as well, but none of them would last that long. Even a lunch stop isn't usually that long.

Batteries for electric cars and the management systems and the electric motors used on electric cars are all evolving technology, do not write off electric cars in what they are capable of today.
Musk suggests the possibility that some electric cars might have a range of 1200kilometres by 2020. You might be able to do Calais to Prague; non-stop with an electric car. (nonstop - does not include border crossing restrictions, induction charging built into the road, might be able to charge while waiting in queues for the documents to be checked )
http://insideevs.com/elon-musk-video-interview-tesla-model-s-range-600-miles-two-years/ (Hybrid might be the way for the logn distance, a small removeable 'hydrogen fuel cell' non polluting unit (electricity generator) in the trunk/ boot of the car to recharge the batteries on the go. ) removeable for short home town trips/ day to day commute to reduce car weight.

You can get single phase to three phase converters. http://www.mastec.co.nz/Booster/Single%20to%20Three%20Phase.html

Franky

1st March 2017, 19:36

Zeakiwi, I'm not writing them off. Just saying that in my opinion they are not a good all round solution at the moment. I just hope the next evolution of EVs or fuel cell cars is a big step forward.

Zeakiwi

1st March 2017, 22:25

Ok , yes that is why there are people with both electric and ice cars in their garage.
https://youtu.be/Z-uFvUTDnkM?t=2m50s (Tesla 80 mph dowhill and recharging)

danon

2nd March 2017, 13:54

a sneak peek of the next level fully-electric WRC noise in action >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cbHCcYZ3p4