[WRC] News & Rumours (part V) 2017

[Sulland]

Where is Mirek when we need him? :D

In his taverna :beer:, and enjoying life!

[Mirek]

Sorry guys, I just came back home, packing stuff and rushing to Austrian Alps for skiing. You can ask PLuto or Walach for details of the article ;)

[Ljuke]

Nechybělo mnoho a český automobilový závodník Martin Prokop se svým týmem Jipocar měl pod křídly Francouze Sébastiena Ogiera. „Vše bylo dojednané. Zhatil to jediný člověk, na nějž není spoleh,"

Something like this:

Little was missing and czech racing driver Prokop with his Jipocar team had Ogier under his wings.
,,Everything had been dealt with. It was thwarted by the only person that can't be relied on.''

[dimviii]

http://www.m-sport.co.uk/m-sport-news/fiesta-rs-wrc/meet-the-team-miguel-cunha

[Rallyper]

Brake support under pedal. Could it be servo assistant braking like on streetcars? I had such on my Ascona B together with twin cylinder brake (front/rear), constructed and built by myself. Worked much better than without which demands much more power from left foot.

[drive]

Nechybělo mnoho a český automobilový závodník Martin Prokop se svým týmem Jipocar měl pod křídly Francouze Sébastiena Ogiera. „Vše bylo dojednané. Zhatil to jediný člověk, na nějž není spoleh,"

Something like this:

Little was missing and czech racing driver Prokop with his Jipocar team had Ogier under his wings.
,,Everything had been dealt with. It was thwarted by the only person that can't be relied on.''

I dont know why Prokop is trying to stir it up again. It was clear at that time that to run 17' VW cars they had to get homo's - that is minimum cost 15 millions to commit for 2017. Prokop didnt had that much, he was hoping for RedBull etc to chip in - so was that other person from his interview. Neither came up with money to the deadline, so now all this story is history... And its no way 17' VW cas were handed to czech team - deal was that VW motorsport staff would be looking after the cars, Prokop should stop telling his wet dreams... sorry, nothing against him, but he talks rubbish. Everyone is entitle to have dreams, talk about them, but please dont try to rewrite history...

[stefanvv]

I have mixed feelings about this. On one hand I think that he is a strange guy because he is pratically humiliating himself publicy showing his weakness in this way. On the other hand I admire him because he is man enough to share his feelings without being ashamed about them. And actually, if you think about it, there is nothing to be ashamed of.

Yes he had never the confidence of the best driver around, but I don't think it is self humiliation, more like "one of those things I have tried to improve myself". It didn't work. Why it's another question probably he should look deep in his mind and figure it out for himself. Nobody will give the answer on a plate.


Still, what he says is that Ogier has beaten him so badly that he lost his mind.

I have to disagree once more. I don't believe he feels this way. Yes, Ogier is the best driver around and we all know this, it isn't some kind of surprise. Copying his driving on the other hand is worse than keeping your own style, trying to improve it in the most weak parts, and of course the result last year showed exactly this.


Anyway, it is very nice to know this side of the struggle of WRC drivers and is good that there are nice and open people like him to share it with us.

All in all its good some drivers realize there is a room for improvement, it depends which direction they'll take. Some approach may work for one, and be disaster for somebody else.

[EstWRC]

Citroen, Hyundai against homologation of 2017 Volkswagen

http://www.rallysportmag.com.au/home/wrc/11132-citroen-hyundai-against-homologation-of-2017-volkswagen

[Simmi]

Certainly in the case of Citroen - you have to wonder whether VW are slightly paying for all the dumb stuff Capito said.

Like Nandan says it's kind of ironic how the tables have turned.

[jparker]

It is clear that Citroen and Hyundai don't want more competition.
Why? Because the are scared. Ford are playing neutral, but we all know they are scared too.
Current Team point system guarantees collection of points on each event, as long as driver reaches the finish line.
More WRC2017 cars = less chances to get points.
Yes, they are under huge pressure to deliver, but this is behavior of a looser.

[Tarmop]

Well, if one tells that we`re done here, won`t participate in any way, then says that ok, we could rent 2016 cars with the whole package to all who can pay for it (fine) and then a few weeks later they want to participate the whole season with 2 cars and Qatar sponsorship....even better but thenfail a talk about letting one car compete a few times. It`s inappropriate for a BIG German company like VAG (ok, with big money issues). If you said no you should meen it and do it properly (no one can say anything about 2018 full season return).

[cali]

It is clear that Citroen and Hyundai don't want more competition.
Why? Because the are scared. Ford are playing neutral, but we all know they are scared too.
Current Team point system guarantees collection of points on each event, as long as driver reaches the finish line.
More WRC2017 cars = less chances to get points.
Yes, they are under huge pressure to deliver, but this is behavior of a looser.
Again, why let competition run on a different rules? Citroen and Hyundai are fully committed to the WRC while VW pulled out and now wants to have special permit to compete. While it is good for spectators it is not equal to the committed teams. Scared is quite wrong word for this. It all should happen on equal basis. You can put this scared card back in to your pocket and put yourself in the position of Hyundai and Citroen management. Quite logical decision from them and I'm not surprised. Imagine Nandan and Matton substantiate their decision letting VW in to the board of Citroen and Hyundai. They would be fired immediately.

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[Barreis]

but how can they lose?! championship started already, the can't compete in manu championship, ogier is not their driver... bad reputation for citroen and hyundai for me after this

[jparker]

Again, why let competition run on a different rules? Citroen and Hyundai are fully committed to the WRC while VW pulled out and now wants to have special permit to compete. While it is good for spectators it is not equal to the committed teams. Scared is quite wrong word for this. It all should happen on equal basis. You can put this scared card back in to your pocket and put yourself in the position of Hyundai and Citroen management. Quite logical decision from them and I'm not surprised. Imagine Nandan and Matton substantiate their decision letting VW in to the board of Citroen and Hyundai. They would be fired immediately.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk

Again what? How many times you have to repeat this statement, without reading what others are saying?
Citroen and Hyundai should say nice and clear, if VW is about to return, we want this, this and this paid for. If you don't like it, bye bye.
Nobody here wants VW sneaking into WRC, and getting unfair advantage, but Citroen and Hyundai don't even want to consider VW return, or at least that's my understanding?

[cali]

Because there is only one way in to the WRC.

Aha, Citroen and Hyundai folks are cowards, quite mature of you. No need to discuss this any further.

[jparker]

Because there is only one way in to the WRC.

No,it's not, and it's not up to teams to figure this out. This is FIA's job. Is the only way for the scared, and yes, they are cowards

[rallyfiend]

Again what? How many times you have to repeat this statement, without reading what others are saying?
Citroen and Hyundai should say nice and clear, if VW is about to return, we want this, this and this paid for. If you don't like it, bye bye.
Nobody here wants VW sneaking into WRC, and getting unfair advantage, but Citroen and Hyundai don't even want to consider VW return, or at least that's my understanding?

jparker you miss the point.

VW have already missed the boat when they didn't homologate the car, and didn't enter Monte Carlo.

That means they're out.

Any attempt to bring them back in - regardless of fees paid etc - would be to create an unequal playing field.

Even just the extra time they've had than the others to potentially make changes to the car before homologation is a competitive advantage.

As ever the FIA are just trying to blame others by putting the 'decision' back on the other competitors to decide. It means they can just shrug their shoulders and not actually make any real decision.

[jparker]

jparker you miss the point.

VW have already missed the boat when they didn't homologate the car, and didn't enter Monte Carlo.

That means they're out.

Any attempt to bring them back in - regardless of fees paid etc - would be to create an unequal playing field.

Even just the extra time they've had than the others to potentially make changes to the car before homologation is a competitive advantage.

As ever the FIA are just trying to blame others by putting the 'decision' back on the other competitors to decide. It means they can just shrug their shoulders and not actually make any real decision.

OK, that's fine then. But one who wants to prove it's the best of the best, should welcome more competition, because it will prove more.

[Mintexmemory]

OK, that's fine then. But one who wants to prove it's the best of the best, should welcome more competition, because it will prove more.

...and if it were genuine competition on a level playing field I'm sure the other teams wouldn't have had a problem. BUT to not commit to long haul rounds and allow pick and choosing of the prestige European events (i.e max publicity for the win) is just not an acceptable business model. A world championship car has to be homologated before a private team can use it, end of!

[jparker]

...and if it were genuine competition on a level playing field I'm sure the other teams wouldn't have had a problem. BUT to not commit to long haul rounds and allow pick and choosing of the prestige European events (i.e max publicity for the win) is just not an acceptable business model. A world championship car has to be homologated before a private team can use it, end of!

Well, whoever is scared, it will make all rules available to protect them, and will keep crying "that's not fare". Real contenders are saying "bring it in". That's the difference between winner and looser.

[N.O.T]

Well, whoever is scared, it will make all rules available to protect them, and will keep crying "that's not fare". Real contenders are saying "bring it in". That's the difference between winner and looser.

i suggest you do not confuse movies with real life kid.

[jparker]

i suggest you do not confuse movies with real life kid.

Thank you movie star.

[Mirek]

OK, that's fine then. But one who wants to prove it's the best of the best, should welcome more competition, because it will prove more.

You want make Hyundai and Citroën change their stance anyway, so You'd better get used to the reality instead of writing walls of text about how coward they are.

[jparker]

You want make Hyundai and Citroën change their stance anyway, so You'd better get used to the reality instead of writing walls of text about how coward they are.

... and you think I'm still hoping for VW? Sometime "Stupid is NOT as stupid does".

[Simmi]

Thoroughly bizarre reaction to this on the forum. These guys are running multi-million pound WRC teams. Not charities. Like NOT says this is real life - not some idealistic alternate universe.

I said it before, if Citroen or whoever beat this VW then people will say "you beat a privateer, who cares". But if they lose the whole thing switches around and they give huge PR to a rival manufacturer who paid a fraction of what you did. They also have to explain to their bosses why they got beaten by a team they allowed in. They have nothing at all to gain from a private VW being in the championship, except in the eyes of a few hardcore rally fans.

[dodge33cymru]

/\ This


Unfortunately, that's what happens when modern rulesets rely on the manufacturer paying a fee to allow their car to be eligible for a specific series. In circuit racing, IMSA and the WEC has a similar issue on a smaller scale, where you can't run your car without paying a hefty fee to the organisers (and that's on top of the original homologation fee).

Unfortunately, building an eligible car is no longer enough. Pity for us as fans, but you can hardly blame them.

I hope a compromise can be reached, but I won't hold my breath.

[jparker]

Simmi, Whether my comments are real or not is anyone's guess, but gon't forget that we have NO NO PASS YES.
Are Ford and Toyota living in the Wonderland too?

[Simmi]

Simmi, Whether my comments are real or not is anyone's guess, but gon't forget that we have NO NO PASS YES.
Are Ford and Toyota living in the Wonderland too?

I think you're making too much out of one journalist's piece. What these teams say in public is only a small percentage of the real story. Malcolm hasn't gone on record so there's nothing to say. You can't include Ford in your argument.

Toyota know they are probably not on the ultimate pace this year. If Tommi thought they could win rallies maybe his tune would change. Maybe it's beneficial to him to be on the good side of EVEN. Who knows?

[Rally Power]

They also have to explain to their bosses why they got beaten by a team they allowed in. They have nothing at all to gain from a private VW being in the championship, except in the eyes of a few hardcore rally fans.

You can see it otherwise. This short “private” VW programme isn’t that far away from past rules exceptions like last year Citroen campaign or the first Mini season. Besides, current rules are way to strict for rally car homologation, including WRC’s, and this could be a fine opportunity for FIA to review them.

Anyway, I’m disappointed to see that most criticism comes form brand x or y fans, unable to see WRC bigger interest and that this VW Motorsport attempt could be the ticket to get 5 manus next year…

[dimviii]

its not the same as Citroens previous year.Is totally different with a car which was already homologated,and asked for 1 year off with limited program through PHsport to prepare for 2017.

[stefanvv]

its not the same as Citroens previous year.Is totally different with a car which was already homologated,and asked for 1 year off with limited program through PHsport to prepare for 2017.

That's fine, but was it "fair" against other competitors?

[Franky]

That's fine, but was it "fair" against other competitors?

Rules are rules

[Rally Power]

(...) and asked for 1 year off with limited program through PHsport to prepare for 2017.

You just mention a rule exception...

[N.O.T]

That's fine, but was it "fair" against other competitors?

yes because the rules allowed it...

[Mariusz]

That's fine, but was it "fair" against other competitors?
FIA is the the judge here and they allowed it, so yes, it was "fair".

[dimviii]

You just mention a rule exception...

for a manufacture that is loyal to wrc for more than 10 years,for an already homologated car,to continue their programm for plenty years more.
Tottaly different situation from vw.
Vw could easily spent the millions to homologate the car,and wouldn't be any problem for a team with enough foundings to participate.
but they wanted to homologate the 2017 car with foundings from some team/driver like Mikkelsen etc.

No its not fair to participate at wrc level, while you are the biggest manufacture ,without spending any money.

[stefanvv]

Rules are rules

They are, but doesn't mean they are always fair. Citroen had limited program, VW wants the same this year, I don't see a difference in "fairness".

[dimviii]

They are, but doesn't mean they are always fair. Citroen had limited program, VW wants the same this year, I don't see a difference in "fairness".

pay 15 millions to homologate the car.All the others have paid it.All the other cars are homologated and paided.
Nobody asked to participate WITHOUT HOMOLOGATION.

[Mirek]

I don't know what's still here to discuss. Rules don't allow homologation of a wrc car without factory team commitment unless all teams agree to grant an exception. That obviously didn't happen. End of the story.

Besides that I am quite sure that the exception would be granted if there was a meaningful program with strong private team, i.e. Jipocar (if Prokop tells the truth). Some 2-3 events with one car is obviously not the case.

[Mirek]

hey are had limited program, VW wants the same this year

Of course not, that's not comparable at all.

[stefanvv]

pay 15 millions to homologate the car.All the others have paid it.All the other cars are homologated and paided.
Nobody asked to participate WITHOUT HOMOLOGATION.

Obviously I don't understand something. Isn't there going NOT to be a homolagation for the Polo if they allow it to participate?

[stefanvv]

hey are had limited program, VW wants the same this year

Of course not, that's not comparable at all.

What did I said:D:D:D

[Tarmop]

They would give a car to Mikkelsen, who would pay and drive a few times, nothing about returning next season. Like I once said, they clearly stated they were finished and 2017 Polo will never compete, especially as a privateer`s car. It`s inappropriate, not to mention the fact what they said about Citroen last year, whose DS3 was an old car from a company with long rally traditions and who promised that they will return full-time in 2017. Mini also promised to do a full season but as for VW, they haven`t promised anything and those 2-3 events aren`t worth the trouble for everyone else.

And no, i wasn`t happy about them leaving in the first place.

[dimviii]

Obviously I don't understand something. Isn't there going NOT to be a homolagation for the Polo if they allow it to participate?

everything is explained .Read again.

[stefanvv]

everything is explained .Read again.

You claim never happened a manufacturer to have limited program before they are fully engaged the following year in wrc? Oh dear, oh dear:laugh:
But.... if VW won't continue in 2018 as full entry, I am totally speechless then....

[Tarmop]

Looking at the rate of different scandals still rising, i doubt it. Only if Nasser or some other rich person rents them.

[dimviii]

You claim never happened a manufacturer to have limited program before they are fully engaged the following year in wrc? Oh dear, oh dear:laugh:....

you forget for 3rd time that polo is NOT HOMOLOGATED.
So yes never again any manufacture asked to run a non homologated car.

But.... if VW won't continue in 2018 as full entry, I am totally speechless then....

that's good to keep speechless.

[N.O.T]

You claim never happened a manufacturer to have limited program before they are fully engaged the following year in wrc? Oh dear, oh dear:laugh:
But.... if VW won't continue in 2018 as full entry, I am totally speechless then....

you do realise there are professionals out there that can help you right ? we are not in the 20s anymore....

http://i.imgur.com/6fIvuA1.png

[stefanvv]

that's good to keep speechless.

you don't have to worry about that. Silence is gold:champion: But don't be greedy, it's not literal. May be I'll tell You some day, if You behave, may be.

[Rally Power]

you forget for 3rd time that polo is NOT HOMOLOGATED.


The Polo technical homologation was done; only FIA/WRC administrative requirements won’t allow it to be used.

Btw, the Mini was homologated on condition BMW/Mini would run a full season the year after. We all know that FIA permitted an irregular move from BMW to get another team than Prodrive to run officially the Minis after MC. The solution was Araujo private entry (alongside Nobre), run by Motorsport Italia team, otherwise the car homologation would be cancelled (and private owners would be forced to sue BMW).

It doesn’t seem ‘unfair’ to get that kind of conditional homologation for the ’17 Polo. If next year VW doesn’t run it, homologation should be cancelled and the car put on the museum. Meanwhile fans would get the chance to see it in action and maybe (yep, that’s a huge maybe) VW could reconsider their rashly decided pull out.

[stefanvv]

The Polo technical homologation was done; only FIA/WRC administrative requirements won’t allow it to be used.

Btw, the Mini was homologated on condition BMW/Mini would run a full season the year after. We all know that FIA permitted an irregular move from BMW to get another team than Prodrive to run officially the Minis after MC. The solution was Araujo private entry (alongside Nobre), run by Motorsport Italia team, otherwise the car homologation would be cancelled (and private owners would be forced to sue BMW).

It doesn’t seem ‘unfair’ to get that kind of conditional homologation for the ’17 Polo. If next year VW doesn’t run it, homologation should be cancelled and the car put on the museum. Meanwhile fans would get the chance to see it in action and maybe (yep, that’s a huge maybe) VW could reconsider their rashly decided pull out.

VW clearly didn't want to continue (or pay for anything in wrc for now). If some privateer serve the money - ok no problem, if not, let it be.
Don't bother, pitty or NOT.

[jparker]

Whoever in VW decided to withdraw winning car from WRC is a moron. This is not cost saving, it's a waste of spent money. I really hope they reconsider it for 2018.
BTW, does anyone know why VW didn't withdraw from Rallycross?

[cali]

After Dieselgate VW is going to towards renewable energy, electric cars and competitons. It's quite obvious now. We can always wish for them to come back but the possibility is slim. I'ts a political decision to clear their face after this dieselgate farce.

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[Simmi]

Whoever in VW decided to withdraw winning car from WRC is a moron. This is not cost saving, it's a waste of spent money. I really hope they reconsider it for 2018.
BTW, does anyone know why VW didn't withdraw from Rallycross?

Does it really need explaining for the thousandth time that their withdrawal had nothing to do with cost-saving.

[mousti]

Whoever in VW decided to withdraw winning car from WRC is a moron. This is not cost saving, it's a waste of spent money. I really hope they reconsider it for 2018.
BTW, does anyone know why VW didn't withdraw from Rallycross?
RX is not a factory program

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G935F met Tapatalk

[Simmi]

There we go - official confirmation that the Polo won't compete this year - http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/128024/fia-blocks-2017-vw-from-competing-in-wrc

[denkimi]

perhaps its time to reconsider this whole homologation thing. although there might have been good reason for it originally, it just has gotten out hand.

there should be a book of rules, an every car that complies with those rules should be able to compete. its just nonsense that only official car manufacturers can build a car.

[Barreis]

fia is complicated political body

[Fast Eddie WRC]

There we go - official confirmation that the Polo won't compete this year - http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/128024/fia-blocks-2017-vw-from-competing-in-wrc

It was never going to happen. Hope this is the end the matter.

[jparker]

Pity some people couldn't understand what this discussion was all about.
Strictly business is not enough to get admired.

[Mirek]

What did I said:D:D:D

Sorry, I posted that from my phone and I'm obviously not that good with it...

[Mirek]

Whoever in VW decided to withdraw winning car from WRC is a moron. This is not cost saving, it's a waste of spent money.

It was a decision forced by the labor union facing a situation when some 20 thousand VW employees were about to be fired. In my opinion the VAG leadership didn't really have a choice.


Does it really need explaining for the thousandth time that their withdrawal had nothing to do with cost-saving.

No matter how strange it sounds it actually was partially a cost saving measure.

[macebig]

As I said before VW didnt want the 17 Polo to run.Everything else is just beating a dead horse.

[Mirek]

As I said before VW didnt want the 17 Polo to run.Everything else is just beating a dead horse.

That's not true. If there was a meaningful program the car would compete. 2-3 events with one car is not the case.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Mikkelsen's got to look for a way into a 2017 Fiesta now if he wants any WRC action..

[Rallyper]

Mikkelsen's got to look for a way into a 2017 Fiesta now if he wants any WRC action..

No, he´ll end up in a Citroen. Wait and see. (Crystal Ball 17)

[macebig]

That's not true. If there was a meaningful program the car would compete. 2-3 events with one car is not the case.

If they really wanted a full program, they could have easily worked with Al Attiyah,Red Bull and a private team(Prodrive for example) and get the cars running.They werent happy with any compromise so the blame is on them.

[Mirek]

If they really wanted a full program, they could have easily worked with Al Attiyah,Red Bull and a private team(Prodrive for example) and get the cars running.They werent happy with any compromise so the blame is on them.

Sorry but You see it way too simplified. It is not easy at all to prepare such venture in such a short time.

You keep blaming VW while You have no information about what was actually happening during the winter pause.

[macebig]

Sorry but You see it way too simplified. It is not easy at all to prepare such venture in such a short time.

You keep blaming VW while You have no information about what was actually happening during the winter pause.

It was all on them.The car was there, the personnel was there, sponsors were there, drivers were signed.Only for PR and manpower relationships they decided to quit, having spent pretty much 80% of the money needed to run.It was their decision, so they should deal with the consequences.

[Mirek]

It was all on them.The car was there, the personnel was there, sponsors were there, drivers were signed.Only for PR and manpower relationships they decided to quit, having spent pretty much 80% of the money needed to run.It was their decision, so they should deal with the consequences.

Now You jump from one subject to another (from blaming them for not establishing a private venture with RedBull and Al Attiyah to the WRC exit of the works team) and add a baseless claim on top (80% of budget spent which is of course nonsense).

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Apparently teams run by Prokop and Al-Atiya (plus sponsors) both tried to put together the money to run the Polo's in 2017.

They failed and that is why they cant run. If the money was in place in time VW would've homologated the cars ready to go.

After this failure of finance they were never going to be able to run part-time.

[KKS]

its just nonsense that only official car manufacturers can build a car.
nope. Everyone can build and run a car in WRC. Only one thing you must do: enter to the championship as Manufacture until 1 Jan. So.... 1 January of 2018 is not far away :)

[Rally Power]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/128024/fia-blocks-2017-vw-from-competing-in-wrc

So, final chapter on VW‘s WRC adventure. It’s sad for VW Motorsport staff; they deserved to get their new car on the stages, after so much work. Still amazed how rashly a bunch of top VW execs have managed to ruin one of the most successful programmes in rally history.

It’s also a shame to see WRX getting the entry of a private team backed by VW Motorsport, while short sighted WRC officials and team managers refused to let VW M being involved in WRC; it’s bizarre to listen some of those guys saying they don’t understand why WRX is becoming such a strong series…

[Barreis]

So, final chapter on VW‘s WRC adventure. It’s sad for VW Motorsport staff; they deserved to get their new car on the stages, after so much work. Still amazed how rashly a bunch of top VW execs have managed to ruin one of the most successful programmes in rally history.

It’s also a shame to see WRX getting the entry of a private team backed by VW Motorsport, while short sighted WRC officials and team managers refused to let VW M being involved in WRC; it’s bizarre to listen some of those guys saying they don’t understand why WRX is becoming such a strong series…

they'll bring R5. domination is no good for the sport so let them go. the only bad thing is one team less

[Franky]

My eyes are already bleeding reading this seemingly never ending talk about VW

[itix]

My eyes are already bleeding reading this seemingly never ending talk about VW
So very much... Can we please let it go now?

[stefanvv]

they'll bring R5. domination is no good for the sport so let them go. the only bad thing is one team less

I'm afraid after a year we'll talk about Ford domination.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

I'm afraid after a year we'll talk about Ford domination.

Doubt it will be VW-level domination... and if M-Sport do really well it will say more about the failure of the factory teams.

[stefanvv]

and if M-Sport do really well it will say more about the failure of the factory teams.

That's the flip side of the word domination - the failure of others.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

That's the flip side of the word domination - the failure of others.

True, but the factory teams failure vs a private team would be a different level.

The previous VW domination was really more their superiority.

[denkimi]

nope. Everyone can build and run a car in WRC. Only one thing you must do: enter to the championship as Manufacture until 1 Jan. So.... 1 January of 2018 is not far away :)
then why does m-sport needs ford? why did prodrive needed bmw/mini?

unless i'm wrong, only official manufacturers can homologate a car, so only car manufacturers can build a wrc car.
if if would want to build a lets say new subaru wrc car, i couldn't unless subaru allows me to. even if i build it exactly according to the rules.

[Myrvold]

A perfect example of this is the Swedish Mirage R5

[KKS]

then why does m-sport needs ford? why did prodrive needed bmw/mini?

unless i'm wrong, only official manufacturers can homologate a car, so only car manufacturers can build a wrc car.
if if would want to build a lets say new subaru wrc car, i couldn't unless subaru allows me to. even if i build it exactly according to the rules.
You build your Subaru and homologated it with Subaru Impreza denkimi F01, and if Subaru co. want to build and homologate own version it be Subaru Impreza WRC. Two homologation at same time.
But one small thing, you doesn't have those amount of money. And Subaru doesn't want spend it to WRC programme

M-Sport can build any car, but they works with Ford and they build Ford Fiesta and homologate it. Not Ford.

[jparker]

I'm afraid after a year we'll talk about Ford domination.

What? Ford dominating? It will never happen.
30 years of miserable failures vs. one lucky win in Monte Carlo? Is that supposed to predict domination?
Ford and Domination are anti-affinity words.

[Marcco]

What? Ford dominating? It will never happen.
30 years of miserable failures vs. one lucky win in Monte Carlo? Is that supposed to predict domination?
Ford and Domination are anti-affinity words.

Mr. jparker were da hell did you and your attitude came from? Please go back!
You are making this forum painful to read.

[itix]

What? Ford dominating? It will never happen.
30 years of miserable failures vs. one lucky win in Monte Carlo? Is that supposed to predict domination?
Ford and Domination are anti-affinity words.
You talk a lot of funny nonsense don't you?
Especially regarding Msport/Ford.

[cali]

You talk a lot of funny nonsense don't you?
Especially regarding Msport/Ford.
Don't feed the troll :)

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk

[Rallyper]

jparker is NOT´s alter ego.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

http://www.wrc.com/en/wrc/news/february-2017/no-polo-wrc-/page/4276--12-12-.html

The End.

[cali]

jparker is NOT´s alter ego.
No, compared to jparker N.O.T. is like a happy puppy ;)

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk

[N.O.T]

difference is all these copycats have no idea about the sport, trolling is caused by their ignorance and stupidity combined, i am far more sophisticated than that.

[jparker]

Are you sure you are talking about me, or yourself? Poor soul

[jparker]

Sorry guys, just wanted to change the subject. I promise, no more VW discussions from my side.

[jparker]

You talk a lot of funny nonsense don't you?
Especially regarding Msport/Ford.

You called this nonsense? I call it facts:
Year Driver Nat Team
1977* Munari, Sandro IT Lancia
1978* Alen, Markku FI Fiat, Lancia
1979 Waldegard, Bjorn SE Ford, Mercedes
1980 Rohrl, Walter DE Fiat
1981 Vatanen, Ari FI Ford
1982 Rohrl, Walter DE Opel
1983 Mikkola, Hannu FI Audi
1984 Blomqvist, Stig SE Audi
1985 Salonen, Timo FI Peugeot
1986 Kankkunen, Juha FI Peugeot
1987 Kankkunen, Juha FI Lancia
1988 Biasion, Massimo IT Lancia
1989 Biasion, Massimo IT Lancia
1990 Sainz, Carlos ES Toyota
1991 Kankkunen, Juha FI Lancia
1992 Sainz, Carlos ES Toyota
1993 Kankkunen, Juha FI Toyota
1994 Auriol, Didier FR Toyota
1995 McRae, Colin GB Subaru
1996 Makinen, Tommi FI Mitsubishi
1997 Makinen, Tommi FI Mitsubishi
1998 Makinen, Tommi FI Mitsubishi
1999 Makinen, Tommi FI Mitsubishi
2000 Gronholm, Marcus FI Peugeot
2001 Burns, Richard GB Subaru
2002 Gronholm, Marcus FI Peugeot
2003 Solberg, Petter NO Subaru
2004 Loeb, Sebastien FR Citroen
2005 Loeb, Sebastien FR Citroen
2006 Loeb, Sebastien FR Citroen
2007 Loeb, Sebastien FR Citroen
2008 Loeb, Sebastien FR Citroen
2009 Loeb, Sebastien FR Citroen
2010 Loeb, Sebastien FR Citroen
2011 Loeb, Sebastien FR Citroen
2012 Loeb, Sebastien FR Citroen
2013 Ogier, Sebastien FR Volkswagen
2014 Ogier, Sebastien FR Volkswagen
2015 Ogier, Sebastien FR Volkswagen
2016 Ogier, Sebastien FR Volkswagen

[tomhlord]

Ogier and Prokop had a deal in place to miss Monte and run Polos this season. http://www.motorsport.com/wrc/news/ogier-came-close-to-joining-prokop-in-privateer-vw-team-872119/

Very interesting.

[PLuto]

Ogier and Prokop had a deal in place to miss Monte and run Polos this season. http://www.motorsport.com/wrc/news/ogier-came-close-to-joining-prokop-in-privateer-vw-team-872119/

Very interesting.

This is not new, this info was discussed here one week ago. Article doesnt brings any news than which was mentioned in that czech articles. I hoped that Evans should dig more from it...

[Barreis]

You called this nonsense? I call it facts:
Year Driver Nat Team
1977* Munari, Sandro IT Lancia
1978* Alen, Markku FI Fiat, Lancia
1979 Waldegard, Bjorn SE Ford, Mercedes
1980 Rohrl, Walter DE Fiat
1981 Vatanen, Ari FI Ford
1982 Rohrl, Walter DE Opel
1983 Mikkola, Hannu FI Audi
1984 Blomqvist, Stig SE Audi
1985 Salonen, Timo FI Peugeot
1986 Kankkunen, Juha FI Peugeot
1987 Kankkunen, Juha FI Lancia
1988 Biasion, Massimo IT Lancia
1989 Biasion, Massimo IT Lancia
1990 Sainz, Carlos ES Toyota
1991 Kankkunen, Juha FI Lancia
1992 Sainz, Carlos ES Toyota
1993 Kankkunen, Juha FI Toyota
1994 Auriol, Didier FR Toyota
1995 McRae, Colin GB Subaru
1996 Makinen, Tommi FI Mitsubishi
1997 Makinen, Tommi FI Mitsubishi
1998 Makinen, Tommi FI Mitsubishi
1999 Makinen, Tommi FI Mitsubishi
2000 Gronholm, Marcus FI Peugeot
2001 Burns, Richard GB Subaru
2002 Gronholm, Marcus FI Peugeot
2003 Solberg, Petter NO Subaru
2004 Loeb, Sebastien FR Citroen
2005 Loeb, Sebastien FR Citroen
2006 Loeb, Sebastien FR Citroen
2007 Loeb, Sebastien FR Citroen
2008 Loeb, Sebastien FR Citroen
2009 Loeb, Sebastien FR Citroen
2010 Loeb, Sebastien FR Citroen
2011 Loeb, Sebastien FR Citroen
2012 Loeb, Sebastien FR Citroen
2013 Ogier, Sebastien FR Volkswagen
2014 Ogier, Sebastien FR Volkswagen
2015 Ogier, Sebastien FR Volkswagen
2016 Ogier, Sebastien FR Volkswagen

you forgot two manu championships for ford in 2006 and 2007

[jparker]

you forgot two manu championships for ford in 2006 and 2007

I know, but without driver's title, this is half the success. That's why I didn't paste the Maune stats. but OK point taken

[Karukera]

True, but the factory teams failure vs a private team would be a different level.

The previous VW domination was really more (their) Ogier's superiority.

Fixed that for you :-)

[jparker]

Fixed that for you :-)

I can't wait to see him doing the same for Ford.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Fixed that for you :-)

You dont think that VW took the WRC team to a new level of professionalism and car strength/reliability ? That's what all the experts said when they quit.

[dimviii]

Everyone wants the new WRC, but the volume of work, especially at M-Sport is creating some problems, albeit at a very different level from the other teams. There have been changes in the production plans for the Fiesta WRC 2017, which forced revisions to the various programs, so OneBet Jipocar ​​team confirmed today that Martin Prokop will only make his debut in the Corsican Rally, and will not go to Mexico. Morten Ostberg, the owner of the team, told AutoSport: "Nothing is decided yet, but it may happen that Martin is already in the WRC Trophy with the 2016 car, but we need more information to decide. The production timings of the Fiesta WRC 2017 are unpredictable, so we will not have the second driver anymore, "said Ostberg. Entries for the Mexico Rally ended yesterday.
This may even seem like a 'problem' on the M-Sport side, but ... far from it. Note that Citroën has three official drivers and will only have three cars there later, probably in Portugal there will already be four, Toyota, sensitively the same thing, being foreseen the debut of Esapekka Lappi only in Portugal, but M-Sport has already had three cars in Monte Carlo and will have four in Sweden. So problems, but 'above' competition ...

http://www.autosport.pt/ralis/martin-prokop-ja-nao-estreia-no-mexico/

[denkimi]

You dont think that VW took the WRC team to a new level of professionalism and car strength/reliability ? That's what all the experts said when they quit.
i don't think VW did anything more professional then other official manufacturer teams like citroen or hyundai. Had ogier stayed at citroen, he would most likely still be a 4 times world champion, but VW wouldn't.


You build your Subaru and homologated it with Subaru Impreza denkimi F01, and if Subaru co. want to build and homologate own version it be Subaru Impreza WRC. Two homologation at same time.
But one small thing, you doesn't have those amount of money. And Subaru doesn't want spend it to WRC programme

M-Sport can build any car, but they works with Ford and they build Ford Fiesta and homologate it. Not Ford.
how sure are you about that?

[dimviii]

i don't think VW did anything more professional then other official manufacturer teams like citroen or hyundai. Had ogier stayed at citroen, he would most likely still be a 4 times world champion, but VW wouldn't.

+1

[itix]

you forgot two manu championships for ford in 2006 and 2007
He/she/it (probably he) also totally forgot the years when Ford were really competitive (like around 2003, around 2006, the era with Hirvonen etc etc).

Ford have been competitive several times. Jparker just has some weird ununderstandable beef with Ford that hasn't even been explained and refuse to see it.

[Karukera]

You dont think that VW took the WRC team to a new level of professionalism and car strength/reliability ? That's what all the experts said when they quit.


No.

They're pro as expected from a manu, improved the all time win share % vs competition and built an excellent car but one has to keep in mind it was served 4 years by the best line up any team could afford which never happened with Citroën so called dominance, Loeb being almost alone, no disrespect to Sordo and others.

Xsara, C4, DS3 were all good cars but looking at Ford results at that time it is simply reasonnable to think that both squads were technically on par, Loeb made the difference just like Ogier does now. Polo wins are >77% Ogier's.

Couple more hints from last year (and even before) with Tänak, Meeke, Neuville and Paddon strong stunts with as a result Ogier, again, way ahead of the herd, Mikkelsen 3rd behind Neuville and Latvala...

MC17, a continuing saga is underway in a Fiesta.

[seb_sh]

No.

They're pro as expected from a manu, improved the all time win share % vs competition and built an excellent car but one has to keep in mind it was served 4 years by the best line up any team could afford which never happened with Citroën so called dominance, Loeb being almost alone, no disrespect to Sordo and others.

Xsara, C4, DS3 were all good cars but looking at Ford results at that time it is simply reasonnable to think that both squads were technically on par, Loeb made the difference just like Ogier does now. Polo wins are >77% Ogier's.

Couple more hints from last year (and even before) with Tänak, Meeke, Neuville and Paddon strong stunts with as a result Ogier, again, way ahead of the herd, Mikkelsen 3rd behind Neuville and Latvala...

MC17, a continuing saga is underway in a Fiesta.

I disagree, looking at the results you can say simply that Ogier dominated but in two out of four years VW had a 1-2-3 in overall standings and in the others only Neuville spoiled the party. You have to look at their organisation and preparations outside of rallies; as a team I think they were on a higher level than Citroen was; of course the investment was also higher. You actually say it yourself, Citroen were more reliant on Loeb, he was the driving force there, a fantastic driver with a great team. Sure Ogier is also a fantastic driver but he was paired with a fantastic team.

The issue here is not that the other manufacturer teams are not pro, it's that VW took it to a higher level than any team before in the WRC.

Anecdotally: I got the chance to see their rally raid team (Dakar) operate and compare with others (Mitsubishi, Toyota, Nissan) and already there the level of professionalism in their service area was clearly much higher than anyone in that service park.

[Mirek]

It's not good to downplay the achievement.

1) Peope keep repeating that with their line-up other teams would win as well. Probably yes BUT to have such great line-up is a definitely an achievement itself. See this year's Citroën line-up with all the free drivers around. Don't You see some difference?

2) They managed to sign the best drivers even without having a car. Can You imagine Ogier signing another team which actually doesn't have anything else than a pair of S2000 cars bought from another company? VW managed to do so.

3) Their approach since the very beginning was very professional and extremely well played. The way to come into the business via taking a learning year with sister-brand's existing cars is unprecedented in the modern history of the sport.

4) They started winning right from the beginning while they had no technical problems right from the beginning. We're talking about a totally new team here and such achievement is definitely very extraordinary.

5) Even though they were totally new to the business they succeeded without relying on established suppliers. They prepared the engine themselves, they developed the dampers with totally new brand in the WRC (Sachs) etc. They took some serious risk here but it paid off.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Autosport.pt:
Jipocar ​​team confirmed today that Martin Prokop will only make his debut in the Corsican Rally, and will not go to Mexico. Morten Ostberg, the owner of the team, told AutoSport: "Nothing is decided yet, but it may happen that Martin is already in the WRC Trophy with the 2016 car, but we need more information to decide. The production timings of the Fiesta WRC 2017 are unpredictable, so we will not have the second driver anymore," said Ostberg. Entries for the Mexico Rally ended yesterday.

http://www.autosport.pt/ralis/martin-prokop-ja-nao-estreia-no-mexico/

[Karukera]

Mirek, my response to Eddie is that they're pro like any other serious teams. I did mention the record acheivements.

Your points are unfortunately repetitive and empirically numbered.

1) They fully committed and spent their war chest (pun not intended) in the rally program, Citroën 2017 line up is a farce.

2) Any driver being offered a huge amount of money with a gigantic ambitious program would have signed up instantly.

3) Repeat of 1)

4) Other teams won from the start. They've been sitting for years watching the big boys doing the real job, learned their hard lesson from the Skoda epic fail in the WRC then gathered the money, hired good people from inside/outside VAG and eventually decided to chime in before leaving like chickens at the end of 2016, dropping 3 drivers at the very last moment.

5) Repeat of previous points.

Polo wins are way too much inequally split in Ogier's favor, fact.

My point is Ogier made the final difference. He would have acheived his records in a Fiesta, DS3 or the late I20.

[stefanvv]

I know, but without driver's title, this is half the success. That's why I didn't paste the Maune stats. but OK point taken

As a pre-meal to the upcoming Rally Sweden, Ford is actually is the most successful car there since wrc exists with 7 wins.

[seb_sh]

Polo wins are way too much inequally split in Ogier's favor, fact.

My point is Ogier made the final difference. He would have acheived his records in a Fiesta, DS3 or the late I20.

How many of those were with a VW driver in 2nd as well? also "late" I20 was 1 year only when everyone else was already focusing on the 2017 car.

[Munkvy]

As a pre-meal to the upcoming Rally Sweden, Ford is actually is the most successful car there since wrc exists with 7 wins.

But only 1 of those with a 1.6 turbo WRC unfortunately! Interestingly I see second equal on 6 wins is Peugeot and Saab.

[janvanvurpa]

He/she/it (probably he) also totally forgot the years when Ford were really competitive (like around 2003, around 2006, the era with Hirvonen etc etc).

Ford have been competitive several times. Jparker just has some weird ununderstandable beef with Ford that hasn't even been explained and refuse to see it.


I think he is 130% Subaru fan...
If not mistaken he is American and in America about 80% of everybody with even the slightest interest is Subaru fans, and in events for more than 12 years about a little over 60% of all the cars are Subaru... They have invented several classes with near 100% Subaru entries over here... It is the triumph of advertising and inertia...
Have you seen how amazingly fast all the Subie guys all are? People say (och va fan vet jag men dom låtsas vara seriöst, tror de eller ej) ''Now we are up to the level of Europe......Amerika has arrived!!!''

#alt-reality
So if Subie is bästis ever then you must hate all other brands...
Again, wot da fuq do I know?

Å fan! I just thought! maybe they are all pissed off at Ford because Australian general nice guy Brendon Reeves came over a few years ago and with a nice spec non-turbo 1,6 Fiest he beat every single Subie turbo and non-turbo in North America except British hired gun Higgins and maybe Lestage or Block or some rich guy and did some 3rds overall and 4th overall.. If I was Subie fan I'd be pissed too if some guy in a little n.a. 1,6 proved how slow the entire field is...


Vem vet?

[smokingjoe]

so do the general rally public in USA also hate on Hayden for kicking that Block tryhard's bottom in a 2wd escort ???
or was that kept hush-hush

[pantealex]

2) Any driver being offered a huge amount of money with a gigantic ambitious program would have signed up instantly.



Toyota offered Ogier "huge amount of money"
Did he say YES ?

[jparker]

Toyota offered Ogier "huge amount of money"
Did he say YES ?

That must have been sponsor related issue, so no good example. That thing about the bad Toyota's suspension was just for the media.

[EightGear]

That must have been sponsor related issue, so no good example. That thing about the bad Toyota's suspension was just for the media.
Hi Donald.

[Mintexmemory]

That must have been sponsor related issue, so no good example. That thing about the bad Toyota's suspension was just for the media.
How serious are you about following rallying? Other than the professional pride of being a 'paid' driver, the top guys in WRC rallying are very much in it for the buzz and the glory - the rewards are secondary. Ogier wouldn't drive anything he didn't feel would be competitive, no matter how much cash was dangled as a carrot. Similarly, Citroen would never have enough cash to tempt him to return as long as Matton is boss. Ogier is set for life already but he does have a small matter of beating records that appears to be all the motivation he needs.

[AMSS]

That must have been sponsor related issue, so no good example. That thing about the bad Toyota's suspension was just for the media.

Are you really serious with this statement??

[Karukera]

Toyota offered Ogier "huge amount of money"
Did he say YES ?

Did they ? I think you know the figures then.
Different situation, Ogier developped the Polo, he knew where he was going.
Test drive with TGR was more a Mäkinen's tactic to measure the work done and ahead from Ogier's feedback, he already had his mind on Latvala.

[jparker]

Are you really serious with this statement??

No, I'm not. I have not insider sources, so my comments are based on what I read in the press, and what I read here.
Let say Ogier liked the Toyota, but there was no place for Red Bull sticker on that car. It's just logical conclusion.

[Rally Power]

Neither the Fiesta, nor the Yaris: Ogier always believed the Polo would be the best option.
According to Prokop’s words, Ogier intention was to drive the new Polo, run by Jipocar and supported by VW M. He went for other options only after Qatar failled to put the money on the project.
Still, it's nice to see him winning in a MSport Ford.

[DonJippo]

Test drive with TGR was more a Mäkinen's tactic to measure the work done and ahead from Ogier's feedback, he already had his mind on Latvala.

You might be on something, I got the feeling after this test drive that there was something not right in it.

[jparker]

How serious are you about following rallying? Other than the professional pride of being a 'paid' driver, the top guys in WRC rallying are very much in it for the buzz and the glory - the rewards are secondary. Ogier wouldn't drive anything he didn't feel would be competitive, no matter how much cash was dangled as a carrot. Similarly, Citroen would never have enough cash to tempt him to return as long as Matton is boss. Ogier is set for life already but he does have a small matter of beating records that appears to be all the motivation he needs.

Obviously what you are suggesting, is that Ogier choose Ford as more competitive car over Toyota. Ok, let see how it turns out.

[MrJan]

Let say Ogier liked the Toyota, but there was no place for Red Bull sticker on that car. It's just logical conclusion.

It's a possibility but I think unlikely. They pretty much only have Microsoft and even that isn't exactly prominent on the car, so I don't think that Toyota would turn down Red Bull money other than if it was causing issues with the second car.

Also if Toyota was a serious option then Ogier could happily have Red Bull all over his helmet (no innuendo intended :eek: ) and still earn a decent wedge. On that basis I think that he made the M-Sport decision based on him thinking it was the best chance of success (as Mintexmemory says, drivers don't opt for a a car they feel is inferior just because the salary is better). That's not to say that he hasn't made a mistake (time will tell), but if the Yaris turns out to be competitive it won't automatically mean that Ogier chose Ford on the basis of money.

[Marcco]

No, I'm not. I have not insider sources, so my comments are based on what I read in the press, and what I read here.
Let say Ogier liked the Toyota, but there was no place for Red Bull sticker on that car. It's just logical conclusion.

If Ogier liked Toyota and was offered decent amount of money why wouldn't he dump Red Bull?

I think it all came down to the fact that Toyota at that time wasn't as developed as was Fiesta and Ogier had better relationship with Malcolm. While Toyota team was a bit unfamiliar territory and full of Finns :) Of course I can be wrong, it's just my speculation.

[tolx]

actually 2 with fiesta

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Ford WRC return:
"it's not going to happen this year, they are fully committed to their GT program" Malcolm Wilson https://t.co/KoyMIDHB1O https://t.co/eoGUgQ4gSr

[Hasselhoax]

Has it ever been confirmed if Toyota did or didn't offer Mikkelsen a drive?

Could it be that he turned them down due to "unfamiliar territory"?

[N.O.T]

Has it ever been confirmed if Toyota did or didn't offer Mikkelsen a drive?

Could it be that he turned them down due to "unfamiliar territory"?

latvala and makinen have the have same manager.

[Hasselhoax]

latvala and makinen have the have same manager.
Ok? Yeah...

Surely if Ogier was in Makinens plan, Andreas would've been too. If I would believe anything I would say that Toyota offered Andreas something but he wasn't ready to go in to the unknown that was Toyota.

I wouldn't blame him for this since a wrong move could have been career suicide and maybe the catch was that he needed to sign a multiyear deal - something he would not risk.

[N.O.T]

Ok? Yeah...

Surely if Ogier was in Makinens plan, Andreas would've been too. If I would believe anything I would say that Toyota offered Andreas something but he wasn't ready to go in to the unknown that was Toyota.

I wouldn't blame him for this since a wrong move could have been career suicide and maybe the catch was that he needed to sign a multiyear deal - something he would not risk.

you are telling me that Mikkelsen was offered a salary in a WRC team for a full season but he prefered to spend his own and sponsor money to run a limited program in R5 ???

[Hasselhoax]

you are telling me that Mikkelsen was offered a salary in a WRC team for a full season but he prefered to spend his own and sponsor money to run a limited program in R5 ???
I'm not telling you anything, but in my view it would be strange if he wasn't at least offered a test. Maybe he knows something for next year that is too good or was in talks with someone else?

Jaques Villeneuve turned down a continued deal with Williams and Mcalaren for a career suicide move to B.A.R. There have been similar situations throughout history.

Would be fun to know.

[Francis44]

I think Toyota could only get one driver under contract and it was obviously going to be Latvala, even if Mikkelsen begged them for a drive.

[N.O.T]

Jaques Villeneuve turned down a continued deal with Williams and Mcalaren for a career suicide move to B.A.R. There have been similar situations throughout history.

Would be fun to know.

i think you should bother more with F1, things are simpler there.

[WRC17]

It is unlikely that Latvala will be champion, judging by his performances in the last few years. yes, he is doing well now but he could make many more silly mistakes this year.

[N.O.T]

It is unlikely that Latvala will be champion, judging by his performances in the last few years. yes, he is doing well now but he could make many more silly mistakes this year.

he does not have a winning car to become champion.

[WRC17]

he does not have a winning car to become champion.

and he has just won a rally ?

[A FONDO]

he does not have a winning car to become champion.

Neither winning teammates to slow down for him and snatch points from others.

[GigiGalliNo1]

Ogier doesn't have a winning car either so he certainly won't be World Champion

[AL14]

Ogier doesn't have a winning car either so he certainly won't be World Champion

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/71/43/a6/7143a670544381ee0dac141ca1d38614.gif

[A FONDO]

Ogier doesn't have a winning car either so he certainly won't be World Champion

You usually say the truth... about 1% of the time :talk:

but funnier is that jparker immediately liked this post :D

[itix]

You usually say the truth... about 1% of the time :talk:

but funnier is that jparker immediately liked this post :D
He certainly has a massive hatred for Ford... Must have been run over by one as a kid or something.

[RAS007]

Ogier doesn't have a winning car either so he certainly won't be World Champion

Are you jparker in disguise?

[A FONDO]

He certainly has a massive hatred for Ford... Must have been run over by one as a kid or something.

Or, or a parade of a local Ford owners club ran over his dog or something :laugh:

[janvanvurpa]

so do the general rally public in USA also hate on Hayden for kicking that Block tryhard's bottom in a 2wd escort ???
or was that kept hush-hush

I have to say the "the general rally public" seems to escape analysis. Like most of the American public it believes fiercely and passionately in the appearance of things and what it is told repeatedly...Therefore the role of corporate generated "media" (press releases, tweet, face-book, paid "fan" blogs or whatever else for news that costs them no effort) is where they learn things they know.

Appearance is EVERYTHING in America, and of course it is the same in rally here..
So since was a little noise by an extreme minority, including me, saying or more asking "wow what does this say about of sport here, and more pointedly, about our obsession with "the need for" either 2,0 or 2,5 liter turbo Subies being "vital" to making top placements OA?", the results were mainly only luke warmly reported and quickly buried under the next "amazing" victory of "our rally super-stars"..

Personally since I have been waging an almost 25 year campaign to promote "affordable, sensible, sustainable" cars---which, like most countries means 2wd normal aspirated and probably RWD cars, I have used those results and also Paddon's Overall Win at NZRC Otago in the 1600 BDA powered Escort agian and again to say "In a mere 1.6 n.a. motor in an old 2wd car it was good enough for these finishes...and beating every single turbo 4wd car in the whole country bar (in Reeves case) 2 Open big engined awd hand build specials with twice the HP, 3 x the torque, 40% more suspension and twice the drive wheels..

That is PROOF that ALL those other guys have made serious errors in their choice of car and their huge spending on those 4wd turbo things....and might go a ways toward explaining why so many in North America come in, make a lot of noise (Professional! Serious! NEW! say the press/tweet/Facebook posts) , do a few events, maybe a couple of 4 event seasons, then drop out."
Rinse and repeat..
The 'merikans always counter "things are different "there".... Where ever there is..

Yep gravity is different, gravel is gravellier, left and right are different, centrifugal force is different...That expalins Reeves and the Ozzi Will Orders before him, Paddon really good showing..

Enough to make a normal man take to drink.

[GravelBen]

That is PROOF that ALL those other guys have made serious errors in their choice of car and their huge spending on those 4wd turbo things...

If they're slow in a 4wd turbo thing they would probably be even slower in a 2wd NA thing. ;)

Understand the point about running costs etc though.

[spyros]

There are rummors about Mikkelsen and toyota,anyone?

[Simmi]

There are rummors about Mikkelsen and toyota,anyone?

Only on this forum.

[jparker]

Only on this forum.

But this forum is good at predictios, right?
Not sure what TGR plans are, but they can't get the manu title without 2 top drivers, and at the moment Mikkelsen is best option.

[dodge33cymru]

They've already got Lappi under contract too, give the kid a chance!

[GigiGalliNo1]

he does not have a winning car to become champion.

I was quoting NOT to state that if he believe JML doesn't have a winning car to be Champion, nor does Ogier.

Sarcasm.

Ogier has won a round.

JML has won a round.

You can see, they both have winning cars and can be World Champions.

[jparker]

They've already got Lappi under contract too, give the kid a chance!

Yes, Lappi is maybe another nice bit of surprise from TGR, I wish him best of luck.

[Allez Andruet]

There are rummors about Mikkelsen and toyota,anyone?
It doesn't make it a rumor if someone tweets something like "Toyota needs Mikkelsen". I'm quite sure Toyota has a plan for 2017 which includes Latvala, Hänninen and Lappi. Period. There's great atmosphere in the team at the moment and Latvala has praised Hänninen as a great team-mate. It wouldn't be a "Japanese" nor a "Finnish" way of doing things to make changes after just two rallies, especially when everything has gone better than was expected.

Never been a fan of Mikkelsen myself and I don't get how it suddenly is the biggest travesty of all-time that he's not driving in WRC at the moment. It's not like one of Sebs would have had to sit out a season during the past 10 years or so.

[jparker]

I'm sure TGR have plans, but IF they find themselves couth in their own success, it will be wize to use that momentum and adjust. If Lappi can fill that gap it will be perfect, but Mikkelsen has proven record, and I suspect he won't be availabe forever.
Anyway, this is pure speculation. I'm sure TGR team know better where thay stand, and what to do.

[AL14]

In all this noise a very few observers are noticing the shine of a young irish boy taking two 5th places in his first full season at WRC. He was also with an "old" WRC car in Monte.

Let's analyze his outcomes in the WRC the last two years:

- 8 events
- One podium
- 46 points total
- 7 out of 8 times on points (I personally think this is the most impressive one, along with the podium in Finland)
- competitive on all surfaces
- Not an excuse or a whine when he had problems, only blaming himself and trying to improve

I'm sure this list will have way more bullet points at the end of the year...

[Eli]

In all this noise a very few observers are noticing the shine of a young irish boy taking two 5th places in his first full season at WRC. He was also with an "old" WRC car in Monte.

Let's analyze his outcomes in the WRC the last two years:

- 8 events
- One podium
- 46 points total
- 7 out of 8 times on points (I personally think this is the most impressive one, along with the podium in Finland)
- competitive on all surfaces
- Not an excuse or a whine when he had problems, only blaming himself and trying to improve

I'm sure this list will have way more bullet points at the end of the year...
56 points*
10 events* after Sweden, let's hope he continues like this.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk

[AL14]

56 points*
10 events* after Sweden, let's hope he continues like this.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk

First is right, second is not. I'm talking about last two years. ;)
Thanks anyway! :)

[Allez Andruet]

In all this noise a very few observers are noticing the shine of a young irish boy taking two 5th places in his first full season at WRC. He was also with an "old" WRC car in Monte.
Totally agreed. The progress Breen has shown during the past 12+ months is quite incredible.

[Eli]

First is right, second is not. I'm talking about last two years. ;)
Thanks anyway! :)
You're welcome :) but even back in 2014 he finished twice on the points (ok he retired because of medical issues in Finland, but before hand he was running 9th) and I agree with you. I hope he will become a team leader at some point, sooner rather than later.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk

[Rallyper]

Though I might be wrong, but Breen has reached his peak. In Sweden he had it all and a 5th place should only have been a 8th to raw speed I think. He will be a good 3rd driver. Wait for Mikkelsen joining Citroen.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Some of us have been supporting Breen for years (me since 2010) and always had faith in him reaching the top.

Throughout his recent pre-WRC days, and especially during his ERC campaigns I was always behind him (as those that use the ERC forum will testify).

He always had the speed and talent but suffered from errors. However these soon reduced and then his progress was tempered by bad luck, car problems and even tragedy.

I am so pleased he is finally being recognised for what I always saw and that he now has the chance at the top level. He has not disappointed.

[mknight]

Never been a fan of Mikkelsen myself and I don't get how it suddenly is the biggest travesty of all-time that he's not driving in WRC at the moment. It's not like one of Sebs would have had to sit out a season during the past 10 years or so.

3rd in WRC 3 years in a row. Beating Ogier in same car in straight fight in Portugal and Australia. 2 rally wins in 2016 (Ogier 6, MIkkelsen and Meeke 2, others 1), without start position advantage. Clearly better than his teammate Latvala in 2016 (You know, the guy that is leading WRC atm.). Won the last rally of the season by his speed only (not like Duval back in a day).

Instead you have at least 4 drivers which are clearly worse than him driving "factory" seats:
Hanninen (has always been inconsistent, with 6th place as best ever result, 2 years away)
Breen (not (yet) there, even though he's improving a lot)
Lefebvre (not (yet) there)
Evans (fast on tarmac, too bad most events are gravel)

Btw. Mikkelsen is 10 years younger than Meek, 2 years younger than Paddon, 1/2 year younger than Evans and 1/2 year older than Breen.

Most people also noticed how the team bosses of both Citroen and Toyota went public in October/November complaining about the lack of good available drivers. Then VW pulled out and they didn't hire a guy that is clearly top 5 in the world atm.

Sure you can argue about contracts, but where there is will there is a way.

[tomhlord]

Though I might be wrong, but Breen has reached his peak.

What.

[macebig]

Though I might be wrong, but Breen has reached his peak. In Sweden he had it all and a 5th place should only have been a 8th to raw speed I think. He will be a good 3rd driver. Wait for Mikkelsen joining Citroen.

Have to disagree.Breen was running in a new car (when everyone else already had a rally under their belt).That car probably lacks a bit speed and his road position wasn't the best.Despite all that he had a pretty much mistake free rally, didn't took uneccessary risks like his team mate and brought the car safely home.We will have to see more of him with the C3 before making judgement.

[onemanband]

.Despite all that he had a pretty much mistake free rally,.

Did we watch a different rally? He made pretty much one mistake per stage on day one. After that he just backed off by a lot and just cruised and built confidence.
Agree with the rest though.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

People have always underestimated Breen. He has been written off as reaching his peak so many times and at every level...

[AL14]

Though I might be wrong, but Breen has reached his peak. In Sweden he had it all and a 5th place should only have been a 8th to raw speed I think. He will be a good 3rd driver. Wait for Mikkelsen joining Citroen.

He never did a full championship, just less than a dozen outing at WRC and you think he has reached his peak already? In a sport where experience counts more than age?
I know he has plenty of experience on other cars and championships but it's not the same thing. Mikkelsen is driving in WRC since 2006-7 and still last year he made progress.

[AL14]

People have always underestimated Breen. He has been written off as reaching his peak so many times and at every level...

I admit I was one of them and I'm glad I was wrong. He is very committed and really love the sport. We need more people like him.

[Simmi]

3rd in WRC 3 years in a row. Beating Ogier in same car in straight fight in Portugal and Australia. 2 rally wins in 2016 (Ogier 6, MIkkelsen and Meeke 2, others 1), without start position advantage. Clearly better than his teammate Latvala in 2016 (You know, the guy that is leading WRC atm.). Won the last rally of the season by his speed only (not like Duval back in a day).

Instead you have at least 4 drivers which are clearly worse than him driving "factory" seats:
Hanninen (has always been inconsistent, with 6th place as best ever result, 2 years away)
Breen (not (yet) there, even though he's improving a lot)
Lefebvre (not (yet) there)
Evans (fast on tarmac, too bad most events are gravel)

Btw. Mikkelsen is 10 years younger than Meek, 2 years younger than Paddon, 1/2 year younger than Evans and 1/2 year older than Breen.

Most people also noticed how the team bosses of both Citroen and Toyota went public in October/November complaining about the lack of good available drivers. Then VW pulled out and they didn't hire a guy that is clearly top 5 in the world atm.

Sure you can argue about contracts, but where there is will there is a way.

Must have seen this same post about 20 times.

He's absolute class but is he worth either a courtroom battle or the expense of adding an additional car out of thin air? Clearly team bosses didn't think so. The only place I think he had a shot is Dmack. But who knows how those negotiations went. Maybe he wanted paying. There are also things called loyalty and honour when it comes to contracts, agreements and relationships.

[Allez Andruet]

3rd in WRC 3 years in a row. Beating Ogier in same car in straight fight in Portugal and Australia. 2 rally wins in 2016 (Ogier 6, MIkkelsen and Meeke 2, others 1), without start position advantage. Clearly better than his teammate Latvala in 2016 (You know, the guy that is leading WRC atm.). Won the last rally of the season by his speed only (not like Duval back in a day).

Instead you have at least 4 drivers which are clearly worse than him driving "factory" seats:
Hanninen (has always been inconsistent, with 6th place as best ever result, 2 years away)
Breen (not (yet) there, even though he's improving a lot)
Lefebvre (not (yet) there)
Evans (fast on tarmac, too bad most events are gravel)

Btw. Mikkelsen is 10 years younger than Meek, 2 years younger than Paddon, 1/2 year younger than Evans and 1/2 year older than Breen.

Most people also noticed how the team bosses of both Citroen and Toyota went public in October/November complaining about the lack of good available drivers. Then VW pulled out and they didn't hire a guy that is clearly top 5 in the world atm.

Sure you can argue about contracts, but where there is will there is a way.

There's no need argue with any of that. Mikkelsen had a fantastic 2016 during which he without a doubt outperformed Latvala. It's just vulgar and funny at the same time, how people (i.e. the fans) are demanding him to replace one of the contracted guys in (pick team) after just two rallies. Ofcourse he has a better resume than any of the guys you mentioned. It's not about that.

VW announced its withdrawal in November - it's somewhat surprising that 2/3 of the VW drivers have a full-time seat for 2017. What happened to Solberg and Atkinson in 2008? Or to Auriol, Kankkunen and Schwarz in 1995? That's just the way it goes and VW is the one to blame.

In a nutshell:
Does Mikkelsen deserve a full-time seat in WRC? Yes.
Should that happen at the cost of any of the current WRC guys (either young or old or somewhere in-between)? No.

[Rallyper]

Should that happen at the cost of any of the current WRC guys (either young or old or somewhere in-between)? No.

Maybe not now. But if you invest in something and it sooner or later turns out to become more or less a driverfailure, Mikkelsen will turn up in a WRC seat. Be sure of that.

[AdvEvo]

levebre out mikkelsen in.

[Franky]

Currently I'd prefer N.O.T out and Mikkelsen in

[A FONDO]

Breen delivers points for Citroen when Meeke crash but do you see him defending a podium? Absolutely not. He is Sordo2, silent waiting to inherit 6th place from 8th.

This is not the appropriate thread anyway.

[AL14]

Breen delivers points for Citroen when Meeke crash but do you see him defending a podium?

He actually did it last year in Finland. At his only fifth event with a WRC car...

[WUff1]

Breen delivers points for Citroen when Meeke crash but do you see him defending a podium? Absolutely not. He is Sordo2, silent waiting to inherit 6th place from 8th.

This is not the appropriate thread anyway.

Lefebvre is doing the same, and he´s slower than Breen at the moment.

[dimviii]

too early to judge Breen.Till now he performs better than most waited.
Latvala after 10 years in a row at wrc last year had a very bad year.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Bertelli to drive 2017-spec M-Sport Ford in Mexico. https://t.co/Gk7433XAbE

Money talks.

[N.O.T]

Bertelli to drive 2017-spec M-Sport Ford in Mexico. https://t.co/Gk7433XAbE

Money talks.

hopefully they can give him a somewhat restricted version, otherwise it can be dangerous for him and most importantly the sport.

[N.O.T]

Paddon live video Q&A after each rally on Facebook, first one today.

To replace last year Q&A sessions, this year after each rally we will do a live Facebook video Q&A session where I will answer your posted comments/questions on the spot. Tune in here tonight at 9pm CET (9am NZT) for our first live Facebook session.

[dimviii]

https://www.facebook.com/motorsportisland/?ref=page_internal&hc_ref=PAGES_TIMELINE&fref=nf
Motorsport Island
1 hr ·
RUMORS: A Fiesta WRC'17 Mikkelsen ?? The rumors come from Sweden, where it is rumored that it is possible an agreement between Onebet Jipocar and entourage Mikkelsen. In the case of agreement the program will start from Corsica for all the European races, alongside Andreas Ostberg. Prokop engaged in wrc trophy!

[Fast Eddie WRC]

https://www.facebook.com/motorsportisland/?ref=page_internal&hc_ref=PAGES_TIMELINE&fref=nf
Motorsport Island
1 hr ·
RUMORS: A Fiesta WRC'17 Mikkelsen ?? The rumors come from Sweden, where it is rumored that it is possible an agreement between Onebet Jipocar and entourage Mikkelsen. In the case of agreement the program will start from Corsica for all the European races, alongside Andreas Ostberg. Prokop engaged in wrc trophy!

Possible. M.Wilson has said they could have six 2017 Fiesta's running by mid-season.

Surely Prokop would defer his drive to Mikkelsen and hope to see one of his team cars fighting for a WRC win.

But will M-Sport allow that... ??

[Rallyper]

Possible. M.Wilson has said they could have six 2017 Fiesta's running by mid-season.

Surely Prokop would defer his drive to Mikkelsen and hope to see one of his team cars fighting for a WRC win.

But will M-Sport allow that... ??

By the time there´s a lot of "private" 2017´s, MSport has way better parts almost on whole car.

[MrJan]

Instead you have at least 4 drivers which are clearly worse than him driving "factory" seats:
Hanninen (has always been inconsistent, with 6th place as best ever result, 2 years away)
Breen (not (yet) there, even though he's improving a lot)
Lefebvre (not (yet) there)
Evans (fast on tarmac, too bad most events are gravel)


Mikkelsen is a decent driver, but I don't think he deserves to replace:
Hanninen - Involved in development and signed long before VW pulled out.
Breen - Involved in development and signed long before VW pulled out.
Lefebvre - Involved in development and signed long before VW pulled out.
Evans - Brings the DMACK sponsorship that likely pays for the drive and has a British link for a British team (many teams have followed this strategy in the past and continue to do so).


I admit I was one of them and I'm glad I was wrong. He is very committed and really love the sport. We need more people like him.

Absolutely...although for some reason people on this forum seem to write him off after a handful of events. It's not even like those events have been in the 'quickest' car.

[AL14]

Paddon live video Q&A after each rally on Facebook, first one today.

To replace last year Q&A sessions, this year after each rally we will do a live Facebook video Q&A session where I will answer your posted comments/questions on the spot. Tune in here tonight at 9pm CET (9am NZT) for our first live Facebook session.

There we go:
https://www.facebook.com/haydenpaddonwrc/videos/1217130464989407/

[GravelBen]

Latvala after 10 years in a row at wrc last year had a very bad year.

Don't forget how many of Latvala's bad results last year were due to mechanical failures rather than driving mistakes. Sweden, Argentina, Portugal, Germany, GB were all mechanicals I think.

[dimviii]

Don't forget how many of Latvala's bad results last year were due to mechanical failures rather than driving mistakes. Sweden, Argentina, Portugal, Germany, GB were all mechanicals I think.

you got what I mean.

[N.O.T]

There we go:
https://www.facebook.com/haydenpaddonwrc/videos/1217130464989407/

it was not bad but typical pleb facebook people questions... favourite rally, first car, how can i be a rally pleb driver ? what you do on your spare time ?....

http://i.imgur.com/vInZT3C.jpg

[dodge33cymru]

Did you ask a question? When I caught his previous Q&As he answered everything I asked. Top interaction, don't knock it.

[N.O.T]

Did you ask a question? When I caught his previous Q&As he answered everything I asked. Top interaction, don't knock it.

no its great, but if he does it after every rally he should publish a list with FAQs in his page with answers to all the pleb questions he already answered so people don't ask over and over again the same things.

[dodge33cymru]

Fair comment.

[the sniper]

Mikkelsen is a decent driver, but I don't think he deserves to replace:
Hanninen - Involved in development and signed long before VW pulled out.
Breen - Involved in development and signed long before VW pulled out.
Lefebvre - Involved in development and signed long before VW pulled out.
Evans - Brings the DMACK sponsorship that likely pays for the drive and has a British link for a British team (many teams have followed this strategy in the past and continue to do so).

He needn't replace Breen and Lefebvre if Citroen took him on. The third C3 when it comes could go to Mikkelsen, with Breen and Lefebvre alternating in the other one. I just can't see that Citroen can afford to turn away Mikkelsen if they want to present any kind of Championship challenge (Driver or more likely Manufacturers) this year or even next year. Meeke, as much as I like him, can probably finish anywhere in the top four of a rally IF he can get to the end of a rally. Breen will probably finish somewhere between forth and eighth, getting it to the end consistently. Lefebvre could often be seventh or lower, with or without Rally 2, if he can avoid DNFs... You can't mount a Championship challenge on those terms. If Mikkelsen could carry the form he had at VW into Citroen you'd have a guy that could consistently finish at least in the top 5.

With Mikkelsen taking good consistent points regularly, Meeke getting good points or nothing semi regularly and Breen or Lefebvre being there to pick up a few points for the team when Mikkelsen or Meeke DNF, Citroen could present more of a challenge to the Manufacturers title. As things stand without Mikkelsen, Citroen to me have the weakest driver line up. Unless they're just there to take Meeke to occasional wins/podiums and otherwise make up the numbers...

[A FONDO]

no its great, but if he does it after every rally he should publish a list with FAQs in his page with answers to all the pleb questions he already answered so people don't ask over and over again the same things.

He does not do it for the answers, he does it to attract fans. When the average spectator feels he can reach him and the driver pays some attention answering, it creates a connection. This should be done by more rally drivers though. Just one hour a month won't kill them.

[Sulland]

I think we the teams need two more rallies before we see possible changes.
Mikkelsen has several options, but only 3 in WRC
- Citroen
- Toyota
- Private Ford

Other

- ERC/WRC 2/BRC in R5
- RX Supercar
- GT Racing and tester for Oreca R4 kit

[Rallyper]

I think we the teams need two more rallies before we see possible changes.
Mikkelsen has several options, but only 3 in WRC
- Citroen
- Toyota
- Private Ford

Other

- ERC/WRC 2/BRC in R5
- RX Supercar
- GT Racing and tester for Oreca R4 kit

Sure. That should end up Mikkelsen in a Citroen for Portugal and one more of my predictions in Crystal Ball 2017 comes home. :)

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Meeke really not happy with the C3:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/128098/what-troubling-meeke-and-citroen

[smsgrafica]

"Not happy" is an understatement. It looks like they totally f*cked up either the diff settings or the whole car. Just one month wait to know the truth.

[Franky]

Meeke really not happy with the C3:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/128098/what-troubling-meeke-and-citroen

That article is just loads of warm air

[Fast Eddie WRC]

That article is just loads of warm air

Not having seen the onboard, this piece clarifies how angry he was.

[macebig]

The video with his off on SS14 posted here, had a bit of that frustration.After the C3 beaches and Meeke and Nagle get out of the car,Paul goes directly across the road for help and warnings, while Kris spends around a minute wandering aimlessly around the car shaking his head and hands.Probably a lot of french came out of his mouth during that moments.

[Doon]

If there are problems with the way the car is driving, isn't that Meeke's fault considering he's spent so much time developing it? That's maybe why he's so annoyed, with himself.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

On the TV highlights they said his problem was the tyres had lost their grip (studs) ...

Couldnt just be that to make him so frustrated surely.

[WRC1]

who is the main development driver at citroen?

who had one year time, missed most races in 2016 to concentrate on development??

WHO is responsible for this result???

Kris himself is the one to blame, he had all resources (time and money) to build HIS car arround him....and this is the result...

[jparker]

If there are problems with the way the car is driving, isn't that Meeke's fault considering he's spent so much time developing it? That's maybe why he's so annoyed, with himself.

Same come to my mind as well.

[MrJan]

Kris himself is the one to blame, he had all resources (time and money) to build HIS car arround him....and this is the result...

I think it's more than that, people don't build a car to their settings that's so drastically unpredictable, I don't care how good or bad people think a driver is. At the heart of it would appear to be that the cars are naturally a bit dodgy, Latvala said as much on Friday about the Yaris causing him problems.

Incidentally, does anyone know the ballpark amount of testing that each manufacturer got done? Seemed to me that Citroen and Toyota were the ones with the most, M-Sport with the least...but I only had a passing interesting in testing.

[Arwel Davies]

At the end of the day we are only 2 rallies into the new season and both those rallies are classed as specialised events. I was expecting more from Meeke especially after how much praise he gave the car during testing last year but I see no reason to write him off yet. Im sure we shall see the true performance of Kris and the C3 over the next few rallies.
I find it strange but glad at the same time that there hasn't been the same levels of negativity aimed in Thieryy Neuville' direction either given the fact he was in a comfortable lead in both rallies before making a silly mistake and throwing it all away. I think Thierry will also get it all together over the next few events so expect some impressive performances from Kris and Thierry over the next few rallies.

[Rally Power]

Kris himself is the one to blame, he had all resources (time and money) to build HIS car arround him....and this is the result...

Jesus WRC1: you’re being prosecutor, judge and executor all at the same time…poor Meeke!

I've (tried to) said it in another thread: rally is a team sport and even if some mistakes or achievements are more visible than others it’s the whole team that looses or wins. That’s way it doesn’t make sense to see Meeke fans blaming Citroen or other drivers fans pointing at him.

Like Davies ahead and some other guys before, I also believe the car will be a winner on gravel and on tarmac, but somehow they’ve miss to get the right setup for the snow/ice mixture of MC and Sweden. Fingers crossed!


Meeke really not happy with the C3:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/128098/what-troubling-meeke-and-citroen

Autosport’s journo is a blood sucking creature. Last year he wrote several pieces suggesting troubles in the Yaris development, now it looks the C3 will be his new drama topic...

[dimviii]

I've (tried to) said it in another thread: rally is a team sport and even if some mistakes or achievements are more visible than others it’s the whole team that looses or wins. That’s way it doesn’t make sense to see Meeke fans blaming Citroen or other drivers fans pointing at him.

+1

[Fast Eddie WRC]

It's extra tough to judge the Meeke/C3 combo given his own errors on the two rallies. He might have been on the podium on either event if he'd made no mistakes... IF.

[donlorean]

I don't know if someone sees it also but in Monte, Meeke said after some stage(WRC+ onboard between stage end and TC) that "that car is undrivable" and Sweden in SS17 after spin, he says that "i don't want to drive this f...ing car...". So my opinion is that there is some real problems with that car... I really hope that those problems are just setting things. If the problem are some where else, then they are in deep shit...

[Rallyper]

Problems between members in team as well?? Could it make impact on his driving I mean.

[Mintexmemory]

Problems between members in team as well?? Could it make impact on his driving I mean.

Per, do you mean:
1)team problems between driver and management
2)team problems between driver and co-driver
or
3)team problems between the drivers
Maybe 1) but in Kris's case I'd be very surprised if it was 2) or 3)
My view is that Matton had it easy when Loeb was in the team but hasn't exactly demonstrated much brilliance since the favoured one's retirement.

[wrc2017]

Matton was not the boss when Loeb was there. But certainly, he is not a stong as Quesnel at the time. It seems to me as if the drivers know what they want, but the team is unable to deliver. If the car is undrivable to a point where its the main contributing factor is going off (both Meeke and Breen agreed, but Meeke obviously alot more vocal), then there is some serious setup issues, or maybe under certain conditions the car simply doesnt work. It looks as if is more than just one problems, but a combination of diffs, shocks and a general direction from engineering, which doesnt give any driver, no matter who they are the confidence to deliver results, and leads or over driving. The onboards i think confirm that.

[Mintexmemory]

Matton was not the boss when Loeb was there. .

Scuse me - It was Matton who replaced Quesnel when Loeb threw his doll out of the pram regarding Ogier. Wiki quote - Yves Matton was appointed Citroën Racing Team Principal on 5 January 2012,taking over from Olivier Quesnel. He was tasked by Frédéric Banzet, CEO of the Citroën Brand, with preparing effectively for the post-Sébastien Loeb era. Whilst the French ace contested his last full WRC season, plans to compete in the World Touring Car Championship (WTCC) were considered.

Rumors of Quesnel’s departure persisted from the summer onward, with suggestions that Loeb’s decision to extend his Citroën deal came with the proviso that the team replace Quesnel


So keep Loeb happy and find us a new team of drivers - Ultimately he's been a failure

[wrc2017]

My mistake, but you or me could have stepped in at that stage and run the team with the same results with Loeb driving.

[gorganl2000]

i don't want to be too quick to cast an opinion on the whole C3 car at the moment. i suspect we will have to wait and see how it works on the upcoming rallies. However, the team (drivers, co-drivers, engineers, workshop, management, etc) would have been working on this car since last year, testing, collecting data, analyzing, etc. There are 3 test driver units that would have been giving their input to assist with the C3's continued development, plus Kris would have had plenty of experience being a test driver from other projects. They all seemed happy when speaking of the C3 in prior interviews (unless it was just for positive publicity and it did not represent what they actually felt??)..Therefore, how can all of a sudden the same car be undriveable when it supposedly should have been built around all that initial input, especially from the drivers?---did the engineers, ignore this information?? They would have tested this car against the proven DS3 for comparative purposes on the same test locations too, giving some indications of noted improvements and areas to be improved.

so as some have suggested, may be the C3 wasn't set up for Monte Carlo and/or Sweden , but then only Kris did both events and Breen/Lefebvre did one a piece. So, let's see what the other events show up on the more familiar surfaces. Citroen has been making championship winning rally cars for a long time (plus having a top driver helped), so in theory the car should be "fixable" and driveable.

As much as we like drivers to speak their minds and have a personality during interviews, they still work for a company and may need to sometimes choose their words carefully to avoid any issues with management/PR---especially when new to the team or not having substantial results. So, flaming the car in public will not do you any favors when you also don't get the car to the end of a rally via driver induced mistakes. When the car is not at its best and you blame the car, then you may have a justifiable reason and gather support that should hopefully lead to improvements. However, depending on your management hierarchy/personality, when the car is deemed to be better/best and you make mistakes/crash, then there is no justifiable reason, and some top officials tend to have long memories, so its a road to tread cautiously.

i really wish its an easy fix and wish Kris, Breen, Lefebvre and the Citroen team the best,,,,as this can only make the season better with all the manufacturers being on some level competitive.

[macebig]

Scuse me - It was Matton who replaced Quesnel when Loeb threw his doll out of the pram regarding Ogier. Wiki quote - Yves Matton was appointed Citroën Racing Team Principal on 5 January 2012,taking over from Olivier Quesnel. He was tasked by Frédéric Banzet, CEO of the Citroën Brand, with preparing effectively for the post-Sébastien Loeb era. Whilst the French ace contested his last full WRC season, plans to compete in the World Touring Car Championship (WTCC) were considered.

Rumors of Quesnel’s departure persisted from the summer onward, with suggestions that Loeb’s decision to extend his Citroën deal came with the proviso that the team replace Quesnel


So keep Loeb happy and find us a new team of drivers - Ultimately he's been a failure

How Citroen lost both Ogier and Neuville by hanging on Loeb for too long has never been properly documented.

[MrJan]

I find it strange but glad at the same time that there hasn't been the same levels of negativity aimed in Thieryy Neuville' direction either given the fact he was in a comfortable lead in both rallies before making a silly mistake and throwing it all away.

We're used to that ;)

Joking aside, I actually made a comment to my Dad during Monte that Neuville was super quick but it was only a matter of time before he binned it. He was going too quick for things to be that smooth for the whole event!

[Barreis]

from three citroen drivers, maybe breen is the 'best' one. meeke can perform well only if there's no pressure (it seems that way looking at 2016)

[rallyfiend]

Apologies if posted elsewhere, but this is pretty good:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2gcWcyMjjs&t=1s

[A FONDO]

How Citroen lost both Ogier and Neuville by hanging on Loeb for too long has never been properly documented.

I blacklisted this team in 2011. Only complete morons would choose the older who retires in 1-2 years instead of the younger already quick who can be their legend for 10-15 years ahead.

[N.O.T]

I blacklisted this team in 2011. Only complete morons would choose the older who retires in 1-2 years instead of the younger already quick who can be their legend for 10-15 years ahead.

Because Loeb has 10x marketing value and will probably have 10x marketing value from both Neuville and Ogier combined for the next 20 years.

[seb_sh]

My impression from the first two rallies is that the C3 is not fundamentally bad. We can tell almost nothing about it from Monte and in Sweden Meeke was not that much slower compared to others, but he wasn't on a podium pace either. The uncertainty in the rear end and the snappy behaviour, including what happened in Meeke's off could be down to the active diff. Of course this is just speculation but it will become more clear in Mexico and Corsica. If the same problems repeat then there could be a deeper issue with the car.

Look at the Hyundai, Neuville had massive pace on both rounds but Sordo took a while to get up to speed while Paddon in Sweden struggled with the active diff, going so far as choosing a setting that was almost disabling it. It's possible that some drivers are having problems adapting to driving an "active" car.

Otherwise I think Citroen are risking by putting all their faith in Meeke. He is the type of Solberg or Latvala driver that can go well when the pace he is comfortable at is enough but he goes off when he pushes. This is just a feeling but every time he starts talking about pushing and pace it doesn't take more than 2 stages for him to have an off.

[Mintexmemory]

My mistake, but you or me could have stepped in at that stage and run the team with the same results with Loeb driving.

That's what I was saying originally - 1 year (plus 4 guest events) were no brainers with Loeb but the misery that was Mikko and Mads and the roundabout test events (Weijs etc) in 2012 meant Matton should have been sacked then.

[MrJan]

My impression....

I think you could be right about the active diff, a few drivers are perhaps finding that it acts in a way that they don't expect. It's not just the C3, drivers of other cars have commented about the rear getting away from them.

I still think Meeke needs to be given a bit more time and wouldn't say that Citroen have misplaced their faith in him, you don't win in Finland if you can't be quick over a whole event. Neuville & Tanak have a history of throwing it at the scenery too, but there aren't many questioning their ability to drive quickly.

[macebig]

Because Loeb has 10x marketing value and will probably have 10x marketing value from both Neuville and Ogier combined for the next 20 years.

Yet, Citroen managed to drive all of fhem away in the end.So, they are getting NOThing....

[Roy]

Thinking about citroen/ psa and marketing. Mother company of Peugeot and Citroën, Psa has other things on her mind. Not direct related at wrc. Could be in future effects at racing programme.
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-38969791
For your interest.

[doubled1978]

If you watch the WRC+ onboard of SS17 with Meeke and Latvala, the Citroen is absolutely all over the place in comparison to the Toyota. Meeke is fighting it off throttle and on throttle, the rear just will not stay in line at all, its like its on casters. The Toyota on the other hand looks beautiful, the rear never steps out past where he wants it, on or off throttle.
Yet if you watch Meeke in SS18 (power stage), it looks miles better than it did in the previous stage, and he is able to get on it and push.
I hope for Citroen sake they know why and what changed between the two stages.

[smsgrafica]

Well, now we know why Citroën didn't want Ogier to test their car before agreeing to a contract...

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Thinking about citroen/ psa and marketing. Mother company of Peugeot and Citroën, Psa has other things on her mind. Not direct related at wrc. Could be in future effects at racing programme.
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-38969791
For your interest.

I dont see much connection with rallying but I do see this as a serious threat to Vauxhall's UK plants if the sale happens.. :(

Being in Europe, Opel may be ok and they do have a rally presence.

[Allez Andruet]

http://yle.fi/urheilu/3-9460599

In addition to JML and Teemu Suninen, renowned manager Timo Jouhki has now officially signed Kalle Rovanperä to his stable.

[Rallyper]

http://yle.fi/urheilu/3-9460599

In addition to JML and Teemu Suninen, renowned manager Timo Jouhki has now officially signed Kalle Rovanperä to his stable.

Well, he´d be in a WRC car ASAP, that´s for sure.

[stefanvv]

Well, he´d be in a WRC car ASAP, that´s for sure.

Finland has lot to catch up:)

[Simmi]

http://yle.fi/urheilu/3-9460599

In addition to JML and Teemu Suninen, renowned manager Timo Jouhki has now officially signed Kalle Rovanperä to his stable.

I can't be the only one who thought this had already happened? Weren't they going around the service park talking to the likes of Malcolm together last year?

[Hartusvuori]

I can't be the only one who thought this had already happened? Weren't they going around the service park talking to the likes of Malcolm together last year?

It reads in the article that Jouhki have followed Kalle around and helped him already, but now he is officially his manager.

[pantealex]

I can't be the only one who thought this had already happened? Weren't they going around the service park talking to the likes of Malcolm together last year?

Malcolm did call to Kalle during RallySweden time.

[dodge33cymru]

Even by the impressively high standards set by the FIA, this is some Grade A nonsense: http://www.motorsport.com/wrc/news/fia-to-clampdown-on-excessive-wrc-stage-speeds-874175/

[EstWRC]

ridiculous

[MrJan]

So backwards. "Let's spend a fortune changing the regs and cars to make them faster and more exciting...then we'll tame all the stages to make them slower and filled with stupid chicanes to make them boring".

[Franky]

Well, again that stupid 130km/h limit. 7 different stages in Finland had over 130km/h avaerage speed, 3 stages had speeds between 125-130km/h, two stages had 123km/h and 115km/h. I didn't include the Harju city stage.

So based on that I'd guess we'd have nearly the entire Rally Finland above 130km/h, if the route would be the same.

Make them more powerful, they said. Make them faster, they said. Bloody retards.

[Eli]

ridiculous

is an understatement...

[Rallyper]

Now, I´m not disagree. However faster cars can be used and looked upon even on slower stages. Read me right. It´s not the average speed, it´s going flat out in 6th gear for several hundreds of meters one could avoid.

[dodge33cymru]

To me it's not even that, so much as defining an event's safety purely in terms of speed. There are straight sections that are perfectly safe and slow spots that are dangerous. The incident in Monte Carlo was on a stage with an average speed of what, 100kph? 105kph at most.

Can speed make it more dangerous? Sure, without any the cars can't hurt anyone. But it's far from the only factor and it seems daft to be legislating it in such a binary manner.

[AL14]

Now, I´m not disagree. However faster cars can be used and looked upon even on slower stages. Read me right. It´s not the average speed, it´s going flat out in 6th gear for several hundreds of meters one could avoid.

I kind of agree. Of course avg speed doesn't solve any major problem regarding safety (there are a lot of dangerous slow sections ad a lot of safe fast section in a rally) but having a limit is not that useless, I think it can help to prevent issues.

Said that I still find ridiculous the situation: Rally Sweden organizers already had chosen that stage months ago, and FIA checked it out. What FIA expected after having seen itself that kind of route?

[Allez Andruet]

Even by the impressively high standards set by the FIA, this is some Grade A nonsense: http://www.motorsport.com/wrc/news/fia-to-clampdown-on-excessive-wrc-stage-speeds-874175/

But we have to remember that this is Jarmo Mahonen speaking. Mahonen is not an average jerk, but much much worse. He's never done anything good when it comes to rallying.

[Arnold Triyudho Wardono]

Even by the impressively high standards set by the FIA, this is some Grade A nonsense: http://www.motorsport.com/wrc/news/fia-to-clampdown-on-excessive-wrc-stage-speeds-874175/
What an utter hypocrite..

Sent from my A12 using Tapatalk

[BigWorm]

Paddon on FIA: ''Speed is not a measure of how 'safe' a stage is - and SS12 in Sweden would have almost been same in '16. From a drivers perspective best is a mix of fast and slow stages - I wouldn't want to see iconic events slowed down. We want to go fast''

[the sniper]

Rally Finland - Rally of the Thousand Hay Bales...