New to WRC--How should I watch and what should I watch for

[Revman]

Hello,

Apologies if this thread seems too basic for you level of knowledge, but I just wanted to introduce myself as a fan new to WRC, and get some help in terms of how to watch this fantastic series.
First and foremost, I am a passionate fan of Toyota, so this is what brings me to WRC. I love the technology of these cars--reminds me of the F1 days honestly. I want to follow Toyota's development as closely as I can.
So, what is Toyota up against? What should me expectations be? How should I follow the rallies? I have already subscribed to WRC+ so I am ready to go from that end. Any advice you could give me would be very much appreciated.

Thank you!

[N.O.T]

Apply for finnish citizenship is a good first step.

[Zeakiwi]

Maybe you could find an addiction counsellor before the WRC bug takes a full grip of your life.
You might find the fan made WRC event videos on YouTube offer a better sense of the speed and driving level than the official videos. The fans stand closer to the road and do not take as many long distance shots that the televised videos do.
Specialist magazines offer better technical detail so watch if ever 'race car engineering' , race engine tech etc , rally race technology https://www.highpowermedia.com/c/41/rally-race-technology features on the Toyota team

Toyotas first year back - watch for a few 'biggie' accidents from JML as he tries to keep up with teams with bigger budgets, maybe especially in Finland as he tries to give the team the 'first win on home soil'. etc

[seb_sh]

Hello and welcome!

You've come to the right place, this forum is very active and has lots of knowledgeable people. WRC+ is ok if you can't get the coverage on TV, but most of us find the coverage less than ideal, especially the commentators. Red Bull TV will also be broadcasting some live stages and leg reviews this year, online, for free!

There's a thread dedicated to Toyota on this board, people post there news, pictures and videos from tests and all kinds of info.

The competition is quite strong and most expect Toyota to struggle next year. Citroen are a very successful team in the past and have returned this year with what looks like a very strong car. Their lead driver is Kris Meeke. Hyundai has a very strong lineup (Neuville, Paddon, Sordo) and the car will probably be quick as well. MSport (Ford) has signed Sebastien Ogier who many regard to be the best driver by quite a margin at the moment, depending on if the car is at least decent he's the favorite. These are just my opinions, I'm sure others will chip in.

[Revman]

Help me to understand the structure of the weekend..... How much testing time? I am assuming three days of driving? How often can they work on the vehicles? I think Monte Carlo has a night stage--how rallies have night stages? Where can I find information about the nature of the courses--which are tarmac and which are gravel? Where/when we might anticipate snow?

More questions.......
I have watch a ton of video to learn this sport. Talk to me about car set up.....It looks like in hilly slick conditions we go with very soft springs? Tarmac....firmer? In terms of driving technique....Looks like a driver leans on the front corner of the car in turns--compress the spring in slick conditions, and rotate on that corner?

[seb_sh]

Help me to understand the structure of the weekend..... How much testing time? I am assuming three days of driving? How often can they work on the vehicles? I think Monte Carlo has a night stage--how rallies have night stages? Where can I find information about the nature of the courses--which are tarmac and which are gravel? Where/when we might anticipate snow?

More questions.......
I have watch a ton of video to learn this sport. Talk to me about car set up.....It looks like in hilly slick conditions we go with very soft springs? Tarmac....firmer? In terms of driving technique....Looks like a driver leans on the front corner of the car in turns--compress the spring in slick conditions, and rotate on that corner?

start by reading these:
http://www.wrc.com/en/wrc/about-wrc/what-is-wrc/page/673---672-.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Rally_Championship

each rally has a different structure/timetable, that info is available a certain time before the event.
You said you have WRC+ watch the event review videos from last year. (they're available under highlights i think)

Setup is complex. On tarmac they have low stiff suspension, similar to circuit cars. On gravel depending on the rally higher and softer.

[MrJan]

Snow will be in Sweden if we're lucky, possibly the higher stages in Monte but generally not any more.

Rallying has changed a lot over the years, events used to be much longer, much harder and have more varied stages and more night stages (some would run through the night). These days WRC events run a fairly similar schedule. Thursday for shakedown (testing) and maybe an opening stage or two. Friday will be a much longer day and form the basis of the rally. Saturday is a long day too and will usually shape the result of the rally. Sunday mostly just for show/TV with a handful of stages.

At some of the events that are quite close it can come down to the last stage with a few seconds separating the top drivers, mostly though it's all decided bar a crash or mechanical failure. Both can happen, in 1997 Carlos Sainz was 100m from the end of the last stage of Rally GB when his car broke down and he failed to complete the event....it lost him the World Championship. In Spain 2015 Sebastian Ogier crashed out on the last stage.

Ogier is the driver to beat but 2017 is all a bit of an unknown because the rules have changed so the cars are completely different. If the Fiesta is a dog of a car then he might struggle.

Driving style has also changed over the years, there used to be a time when flamoboyance and sideways driving was quick, but this has mostly been replaced by being neat and smooth. Colin McRae and Petter Solberg were probably the last 'quick' drivers that threw the car around. Ogier and Loeb were basically the new world order that honed the smooth style. Handrake is key for control on slower corners.

[TheFlyingTuga]

And depending on your area of residence I strongly advice you to go see a rally in person. The sounds, the smells, the passing cars, the crouds... it's a hole diferent world from any form of motorsport. I can remeber my first WRC event here in Portugal. Standing in the middle of nowhere with my father and just a few other people, on a not yet day light and earing the car scream through the tree line... the anticipation... oh boy.

Just remember, this sport it's a very adtive drug... once you get in, your in it for life ;)

[er88]

I echo a lot of the comments here, would also add that rally radio can be a good way to follow a WRC event live with the stage end interviews and reaction. The TV highlights are decent but I do prefer fan shot videos on YouTube that give a better perspective of what rallying is all about and the speed. Hyundai motorsport and Citreon racing also have their own YouTube channels, and produce daily videos over the course of a rally weekend about their drivers. Maybe Toyota will have something like that too.

You also really need to go to a WRC event if you can. That is when you'll become addicted for life. You can get much closer to the action and drivers compared to any other form of motorsport.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

[Rallyper]

Portugal should be a good rally to start with.
And Finland is a must. Best rally to watch. Summer stages, big crowds, nice HQ and Service Park i center of Jyväskylä.

Also you should follow your favourite team Toyota on @TGR_WRC and favouritee drivers on Twitter. Then also some of Twitter accounts following the sport as @HartusvuoriWRC the Voice of Rally Mr Colin Clark @voicofrally .

[FiddleSticks]

Just bear in mind if you are going to see a rally for the first time, a lot of the people here (myself included) look back on their first time with fondness, rememebering how close you could get to the cars etc - I remember think it was brilliant you could get so close you'd be peppered with gravel from the stage!

Unfortunately, health and safety has got involved and this closeness is becoming rarer and rarer, with stages being stopped if spectators are in the wrong places etc, it takes all the fun out of it if you are worried about being harangued for being a bit too close IMO.

[Mirek]

There were far too man dead people to keep things unchanged...


Stills some organizations like Automobile Club de Monaco don't care about safety at all. On the stages of Monte Carlo once You get from the access point You can do whatever You want. There are no tapes, no marshals, nothing. Anyway for such case I would strongly recommend to go spectating together with somebody experienced.

[AL14]

Aaaah my first rally was a WRC rally. In Sardinia.
I had watched so many videos and reviews before, but the feeling and the adrenaline I felt the day I watch it live I will never forget.

[sindroms]

My first rally car ever which I saw was WRC (Toyota Corolla WRC). Winter rally, minus 25 degrees... Still remember that feeling when car flew by - standing in small ice dust cloud, mouth wide open, goosebumps everywhere and uncensored excitement after then. This was it for me :)
Friend of mine took me to rally and to exactly that place. Advice - try to find someone who understands a rally and join to him. For beginning in WRC events you can try to spot peoples who are moving away from official spectator places in to stage and to join them. They knows what they are doing quite often. And never forget about safety and physics law, always keep in mind "what if..."!

Enjoy! :)

[Mirek]

With me it was that the rallysport came actually to myself :D I was always somewhat interested in rallying but never went spectating myself until the time I moved to the university in Prague. A stage of the Prague rallysprint led through the street under the windows of my university hostel. I woke up with the noise of the cars, went out and was caught forever :)

[Rally Power]

The others already said it all. You can learn a lot on the net, tv or radio, but live spectating is the best thing you can do to get into rally world. If it’s not easy to travel to a WRC event, try any national rally near you. Take the thrill of the stages but also notice the service crews work and codriver’s job (besides the notes signing). That way you’ll manage to understand this fantastic sport in a quick and exciting way. Btw, it’s great to have Toyota back.

[OldF]

Results and statistics.

http://www.ewrc-results.com/season.php

http://juwra.com/

Live results with driver’s comments after each (almost) stage. Also on ewrc-resutls.com

https://rally-base.com/

[EightGear]

Since we are sharing stories about how people got into rallying, here is mine.


I have always been a big motorsport fan, but only really circuit racing. I also like simracing and on one day I decided to give Richard Burns Rally a try. It was bloody hard but it got my interest for rallying going, as I started to learn more about it. This was back in the end of 2010, and I knew 2011 would start with new regulations so I tried to follow it a bit. After joining this forum my interest has only increased, and has left me wondering how I could have ignored rallying for so long.

Circuit racing may be my 'first love' but rallying certainly is my biggest. :)

Oh and unfortunately I still have yet to attend a WRC round...

[Revman]

Thank you all very much for the information! I am studying hard in preparation for the season. Yeah, I said "studying." I am passionate about motorsports, and I want to be able to enjoy the action from the beginning without trying to understand what is going on. I am preparing for Monte Carlo right now. Great stuff!

[Rallyper]

@Revman where do you have your residence?

[Zeakiwi]

The Welsh Rally Sprints got my attention when shown on NZ tv from 1978. Some of my relatives were among the first to point a car down an officially closed gravel road in NZ, many years before.
https://youtu.be/DQSELkJhi80 NZer Alan Carter in the Toyota Celica and co https://youtu.be/AoZxBXxEwcI
Mikkola, Vatanen, Salonen, Airrikkala, Dawson were in NZ for the '79 WRC and subsequent years. No F1 in NZ, so WRC is better than F1 imo.

[Simmi]

I always wonder about people's first rallies.

I'm averaging around 3-4 WRC events a year and the pure magic and anticipation of seeing the cars is gone now. It's still exciting don't get me wrong - but okay it's never going to be the same as the mid-90s when I first started watching rallies live. When you could hear the first car from a huge distance away and it sounded like a small war was approaching. Plus when I was much younger I literally saw the cars once a year.

But on the flipside the cars we are witnessing now are by far the quickest, jumping higher, further, etc.

[Thousandlakes]

Hello everyone. Nice to hear other rally fans stories about getting crazy of rallying. My very first memories for rally start in year 82 and thousandlakes rally. I was under school age little boy and my daddy bring me in special stage (ouninpohja) which was quite near my grannys place. Wow still remember That Mikkolas Audi sound when it came that junction. Love at first sight :) I went every 1000 lakes rally since 1982-2013. So i have seen best years of group B especially 85 and 86. Still miss that sound and bangs which can hear many km before car came. Henri Toivonen was my biggest idol that time. Now after 2 years brake I will go back to watch Rally Finland. Like this new cars more and waiting new season more than many years. Can write whole book about Rally Finland and my experiences but I would like to hear other people stories as well. Merry xmas to everyone. And welcome Revman

[Fast Eddie WRC]

I think the Quattro turned so many of us on to rallying back in the day.

As a kid in the 70's I liked rallying on tv, but it had quite normal looking cars like the Escorts, Chevettes, Sunbeams etc.

But when the Quattro came it looked and sounded from another planet. I had to go and watch it for real on the RAC and I was hooked. The follwing Group B cars were just amazing and I was so lucky to see them first-hand for 5 years before they were banned.

Its never been as thrilling since but rallying still stayed a passion.

[Revman]

Again, I would like to thank you for the responses. I am so excited for the season! I've got to go study up!!!!!

[Rallyper]

Means a lot of longdistance travelling for you to meet up our recommendations. :)

[MrJan]

I would advise not to go to a WRC round as your first event, if you can try and get to a local club event (not so easy if you live in the US though). The reason I say that is that you can be impressed by how quick the drivers are going and the way that they control the car. Then when you actually get to a WRC event you can be completely blown away by how much quicker it is at the top level.

My first ever rally was a local event and I must only have been 2 or 3. Rallycross star Pat Doran was competing (I think in a Sierra Cosworth) and was one of the first cars threw the stage. Almost right in front of us he rolled the car into a ditch, before getting back on his wheels (with the help of spectators) and carrying on. I was hooked!

We continued to watch a lot of local/national club events but it wasn't until 13 or 14 years later I got to my first WRC round. I'll never forget being stood on a cold, wet hillside on the Rheola stage of Rally GB. The first car threw was McRae in the Focus and I'd never seen a car going that fast on gravel. It was absolute poetry in motion as he came into view threw a left hander completely sideways, flicked the car back the other way for a right kink, into a 90 right and then out of view round a long open left. It gives me goosebumps thinking about it, in particular the atmosphere as the sound of the car faded into the distance and the hill seemingly came alive with the buzz of excited chatter. In all the many years of rallying I watched before and since, that moment beyond all others reminds me of why I love the sport.

[Rallyper]

I would advise not to go to a WRC round as your first event, if you can try and get to a local club event (not so easy if you live in the US though). The reason I say that is that you can be impressed by how quick the drivers are going and the way that they control the car. Then when you actually get to a WRC event you can be completely blown away by how much quicker it is at the top level.

My first ever rally was a local event and I must only have been 2 or 3. Rallycross star Pat Doran was competing (I think in a Sierra Cosworth) and was one of the first cars threw the stage. Almost right in front of us he rolled the car into a ditch, before getting back on his wheels (with the help of spectators) and carrying on. I was hooked!

We continued to watch a lot of local/national club events but it wasn't until 13 or 14 years later I got to my first WRC round. I'll never forget being stood on a cold, wet hillside on the Rheola stage of Rally GB. The first car threw was McRae in the Focus and I'd never seen a car going that fast on gravel. It was absolute poetry in motion as he came into view threw a left hander completely sideways, flicked the car back the other way for a right kink, into a 90 right and then out of view round a long open left. It gives me goosebumps thinking about it, in particular the atmosphere as the sound of the car faded into the distance and the hill seemingly came alive with the buzz of excited chatter. In all the many years of rallying I watched before and since, that moment beyond all others reminds me of why I love the sport.

There´s always John VanLandingham to ask about american rallying. I know from him there´s some forums in america as well for rallypeople to discuss. (his name here is JanVanVurpa.

[Revman]

Means a lot of longdistance travelling for you to meet up our recommendations. :)

True, but my wife wants to see Europe, so.......;)

[Revman]

Still researching, and gaining a solid understanding of this sport day by day.....In preparing for Monte Carlo, I have heard references to teams sending a passenger car out on the course to assess conditions. In Monte, specifically looking for ice/snow. Does this happen daily during any rally, or is this practice exclusive to ice/snow races?

[N.O.T]

Still researching, and gaining a solid understanding of this sport day by day.....In preparing for Monte Carlo, I have heard references to teams sending a passenger car out on the course to assess conditions. In Monte, specifically looking for ice/snow. Does this happen daily during any rally, or is this practice exclusive to ice/snow races?

yes their are called gravel crews, in most cases they are ex-rally drivers, all of the manufacturer teams have them and they are different for each of their drivers and some of the rich privateers also. They are used on every rally.

[Revman]

Apologies for all of the questions. I am so grateful for your patience.....So, in F1 for example, Schumacher was fabulous in the rain. In rally, are there specific drivers who excel on specific surfaces? Is there a driver, for example, who can gain ground in a rally in snow section?

Another question.... Is it common practice to replicate a specific stage....For example, can two stages be run on the same course?

[N.O.T]

you see kid, i was just starting to like you, but then you bring the ladyboy F1 sport in here and we are going to have problems and we do not want that. but i am willing to forgive you this time...

there are specialists as in every motorsport.

Usually nordic drivers are good on snow and French and Spanish on tarmac but that was in the old dog days of the sport, in todays masterrace sport you cannot afford to be a specialist.

About the stages if you mean that if it is possible to run a stage 2 times in a rally then that is the common format, usually each day has 4-6 stages that are repeated once in the morning and once in the afternoon.

[Revman]

you see kid, i was just starting to like you, but then you bring the ladyboy F1 sport in here and we are going to have problems and we do not want that. but i am willing to forgive you this time...

there are specialists as in every motorsport.

Usually nordic drivers are good on snow and French and Spanish on tarmac but that was in the old dog days of the sport, in todays masterrace sport you cannot afford to be a specialist.

About the stages if you mean that if it is possible to run a stage 2 times in a rally then that is the common format, usually each day has 4-6 stages that are repeated once in the morning and once in the afternoon.

Apologies for the F1 reference! It will not happen again! Thank you for your patience.

Another question....Is there any preparation done to the course? I am specifically thinking about snow/ice removal...

[N.O.T]

Apologies for the F1 reference! It will not happen again! Thank you for your patience.

Another question....Is there any preparation done to the course? I am specifically thinking about snow/ice removal...

no, its a mens sport we do not care about excessive snow/ice/rain especially on snow rallies (sweden and sometimes monte) you need ice on the road for the spikes on the tyres to work properly and have grip.

On some rough gravel rallies usually a week before the rally the organisers pass through the stages with grader vehicles to smooth the surface a bit and remove stones and debris from the roads and thats about it.

[Revman]

I am a passionate Toyota fan following the company wherever they go. So, please allow me one more reference to girly F1. The only reason I make this reference is because Toyota entered that formula new, and although I know that they have been in rally in the past, everything has changed. When Toyota came to F1, really the only hope I had of a quality result was typically a rain race when the car performance was leveled, and it came down to driver skill. My question is this: What type of rally would Toyota need to have to be able to pull out a podium (or better result)? It would seem to me that car for car and driver for driver--all things being equal, Toyota will struggle for quality results. What would have to happen for this to be different from what I expect?

[Revman]

Here are a couple of pretty straight forward question: Can a brilliant rally car make an average driver champion? Conversely, can a brilliant driver win a championship with an average car?

[Rallyper]

I am a passionate Toyota fan following the company wherever they go. So, please allow me one more reference to girly F1. The only reason I make this reference is because Toyota entered that formula new, and although I know that they have been in rally in the past, everything has changed. When Toyota came to F1, really the only hope I had of a quality result was typically a rain race when the car performance was leveled, and it came down to driver skill. My question is this: What type of rally would Toyota need to have to be able to pull out a podium (or better result)? It would seem to me that car for car and driver for driver--all things being equal, Toyota will struggle for quality results. What would have to happen for this to be different from what I expect?

Now you are on hot roof talking about Toyotas´commitment to WRC again, N.O.T.-wise. You already learnt to get to know N.O.T. whom don´t like F1 (reasons I can accept for 85%) but especially don´t think Toyota will gain any success in their comeback and he has let us know that since about one and a half year or so. So a good advice, don´t mention Toyota when N.O.T. can hear you. Else he is a good guy sometimes coming with some provoking and annoying comments, which will stand for him. Often he´s joyable to read.

[Rallyper]

I am a passionate Toyota fan following the company wherever they go. So, please allow me one more reference to girly F1. The only reason I make this reference is because Toyota entered that formula new, and although I know that they have been in rally in the past, everything has changed. When Toyota came to F1, really the only hope I had of a quality result was typically a rain race when the car performance was leveled, and it came down to driver skill. My question is this: What type of rally would Toyota need to have to be able to pull out a podium (or better result)? It would seem to me that car for car and driver for driver--all things being equal, Toyota will struggle for quality results. What would have to happen for this to be different from what I expect?

Now you are on hot roof talking about Toyotas´commitment to WRC again, N.O.T.-wise. You already learnt to get to know N.O.T. whom don´t like F1 (reasons I can accept for 85%) but especially don´t think Toyota will gain any success in their comeback and he has let us know that since about one and a half year or so. So a good advice, don´t mention Toyota when N.O.T. can hear you. Else he is a good guy sometimes coming with some provoking and annoying comments, which will stand for him. Often he´s joyable to read.

And to be WDC (World rally driverchampion) you need to have excellent skills and a excellent car.

[N.O.T]

Here are a couple of pretty straight forward question: Can a brilliant rally car make an average driver champion? Conversely, can a brilliant driver win a championship with an average car?

Νο and No.

[MrJan]

One key thing to learn is that N.O.T is a bit outspoken and doesn't necessarily agree with people...he can come across as a bit of a ballbag.


Here are a couple of pretty straight forward question: Can a brilliant rally car make an average driver champion? Conversely, can a brilliant driver win a championship with an average car?

I can't think of the last time that a driver won the championship who you could consider 'average', but there are certainly some who have been flattered by their car. Likewise they need a decent car to win, and some could do better with the right car, but I can't think of someone who I've thought "they should have won the championship instead of x", at least not in recent memory. That said the best drivers have generally been in the best cars for the last decade or so. This year may be the year that it happens though, Ogier is an outstanding driver but to an extent the new cars are a bit unknown so the Fiesta may not be the best of the pack.

Can Toyota get some good results? Possibly, it's difficult to say until the first rally, they've been putting a lot of testing in and probably have better mileage on their car than M-Sport...but M-Sport have the experience. Personally I think that Hyundai might have a good shot, they've been quick at some events this year and have a good team, Paddon is a quick driver and Neuville can be quick when his mind is in the right place and the car isn't wrapped around a tree. Of course the smart money would have been on VW, but then they decided to spend the money on legal cases so we'll never really know how good (or bad) the Polo was.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Still researching, and gaining a solid understanding of this sport day by day.....In preparing for Monte Carlo, I have heard references to teams sending a passenger car out on the course to assess conditions. In Monte, specifically looking for ice/snow. Does this happen daily during any rally, or is this practice exclusive to ice/snow races?

This happens on all events with non-sealed surfaces - the team have assistants they call 'gravel crews'. For Monte they have 'ice note crews'. These guys go through the stage nearer to the start time of the stages to check for any changes since the crew did their pacenote recce.

[Marcco]

Here are a couple of pretty straight forward question: Can a brilliant rally car make an average driver champion? Conversely, can a brilliant driver win a championship with an average car?

Of course a good driver can make some good result with average car, and vise versa, average driver can make some good results with good car - depending on who is good at what. But I will dare to say that rally driver is a bit more important part of whole package (driver+car+team) compared to other motorsports.

[N.O.T]

I am the best thing ever happened to humanity since ice cream was invented.

Now you can take everything i say lightly and have fun accepting me as your eternal dear leader, or you can take things i say seriously and resort to autistic screeching like some people in here which i always find amusing.

now back to your questions.

[Franky]

Guys, you seem to be living in the past regarding the note/gravel crews. From the FIA regulations:


11.5.1 For sections of a rally run entirely on asphalt, one route note car may be used for each driver entered with a World Rally car.

[Revman]

I am the best thing ever happened to humanity since ice cream was invented.

Now you can take everything i say lightly and have fun accepting me as your eternal dear leader, or you can take things i say seriously and resort to autistic screeching like some people in here which i always find amusing.

now back to your questions.

You are awesome! I appreciate a person who stands for something! I take your comments the correct way. All good. Thank you again for all of the information. Extremely helpful. I feel prepared for Monte Carlo. Working on Sweden right now. I take my motorsports seriously.

[Revman]

Was Ogier's decision to go with M-Sport a surprise?....and what does that say about the other manufacturers given that it seems he had his pick? Didn't he drive all of the cars?

[MrJan]

Was Ogier's decision to go with M-Sport a surprise?....and what does that say about the other manufacturers given that it seems he had his pick? Didn't he drive all of the cars?

Haven't paid much attention but thought he only drove the Fiesta and the Yaris. I was a bit surprised by the move tbh. M-Sport isn't a huge budget outift (they do pretty well but not on a par with Citroen and Hyundai) so not sure how Malcolm (Wilson) can cover the salary. Secondly he's the type of driver I can imagine Wilson falling out with. Also the Fiesta has been a poor car in recent years, unable to get close to the Polo regularly and even struggling against the 'private' DS3 on some events, although they didn't exactly have a great set of drivers. Personally I thought that Ogier would pursue another form of the sport, but I guess he wants to surpass Loeb.

[Revman]

How is the order chosen for each stage....It would seem that the deeper into a stage, the more conditions change, the more unpredictable things become....

[N.O.T]

How is the order chosen for each stage....It would seem that the deeper into a stage, the more conditions change, the more unpredictable things become....

staring order is an issue that is discussed all the time and the rules never stay constant.

for 2017 the championship leader starts day 1 first, the second in the standings afterwards and so on... but on day 2 and 3 the top 15 start in reverse so the person who is 15th starts first and so on...

this is mainly due to the fact that gravel stages have a layer of soft gravel on top and the first few cars (usually 4-5 but depends on the rally) act as sweepers losing time (in some rallies it can be as worse as 1-2 seconds per km). On tarmac running first does not give you any handicap but the drivers following can gain a bit of time by following the lines of the driver ahead and seeing his braking points.

however running first on a gravel stage can be a benefit as well when you have lots of rain a mud because by corner cutting you bring more mud into the road making it more slippery for the ones following. On tarmac rallies with lots of cornber cutting like spain and germany the one running first also has an advantage because it brings more gravel onto the road.

[Revman]

staring order is an issue that is discussed all the time and the rules never stay constant.

for 2017 the championship leader starts day 1 first, the second in the standings afterwards and so on... but on day 2 and 3 the top 15 start in reverse so the person who is 15th starts first and so on...

this is mainly due to the fact that gravel stages have a layer of soft gravel on top and the first few cars (usually 4-5 but depends on the rally) act as sweepers losing time (in some rallies it can be as worse as 1-2 seconds per km). On tarmac running first does not give you any handicap but the drivers following can gain a bit of time by following the lines of the driver ahead and seeing his braking points.

however running first on a gravel stage can be a benefit as well when you have lots of rain a mud because by corner cutting you bring more mud into the road making it more slippery for the ones following. On tarmac rallies with lots of cornber cutting like spain and germany the one running first also has an advantage because it brings more gravel onto the road.

Would it be a benefit to go early in the snow? I would think that after several cars you would be dealing with compact snow and ice....

[Revman]

...and to clarify...Championship leader goes first on Day 1, but thereafter sequencing is dependent upon time (15th fastest goes first)?

[Mirek]

Would it be a benefit to go early in the snow? I would think that after several cars you would be dealing with compact snow and ice....

That's difficult question. If it's snow on asphalt it's for sure better to start later than first. Ploughing fresh snow takes a lot of time and sometimes later runners have no snow on the road at all (that's especially noticable when temperatures start rising during the morning loop).

For proper snow rallies it's more a question to our nordic members but I would say that deep fresh snow is definitely problematic for the first runner but on the other hand with a really really cold and sunny weather the first one has no standing ice dust in the air which can dazzle following drivers. Driving on pure solid ice with nordic studs isn't a bad thing I would say. You have also no ruts like the later runners.

That brings another point to the gravel events. Sometimes there is so much standing dust that running first is an advantage even on dry surface with a lot of loose gravel. There are events where dust is bigger issue such as Sardinia, Spain (gravel leg) or Australia. FIA sometimes make ridiculously large gaps between the cars to avoid the dust impact on the results.

[Revman]

Fabulous information. Thanks all.

[kirungi okwogera]

...and to clarify...Championship leader goes first on Day 1, but thereafter sequencing is dependent upon time (15th fastest goes first)?

That's right. For a good while Ogier has complained as the order rules tend not to advantage the championship frontrunner as much as the championship frontrunner ever wants, but this coming year it isn't too bad being only one day in championship order.

I'd say also it's questionable how much of a leveler championship order really is when you consider the proportion of tarmac and gravel rallies is about even, considering that rain on gravel reverses the advantage, and that several if not most tarmac events get a lot of dirt/gravel pulled into the road due to corner cutting by early runners. So a lot of people have decided Ogier is a whiner due to having moaned about this so much at stage-ends. Of course, he still dominates, complaints or not.

I also want to underline the earlier point that UNLIKE damn near any other motorsport, in rallying the driver is (in my view) unquestionably the most important element in success. When you are doing 80 laps or something, everybody knows the exact brake points and lines, and the external elements of the car and the team come into play much more. When you are driving a corner twice or even once in a three day event, the variability in driving technique is much more visible. Fan videos of rallies demonstrate this very well. You can see plainly on any given corner who is driving clean, who is wild, who is aggressive/sideways losing time, who is braking too hard, whose brakes are fading. So much information is visible to the naked eye that in other sports has to be in telemetry or TV slo-mo analysis.

One car can be slightly faster, but it's not like with F1 where one team figures out a technical trick that makes their mid-level drivers suddenly turn into champions. Or at least it hasn't been - Sorry to say to a Toyota fan but Toyota Team Europe gave this method, known as "cheating" in rally, a try in the 90s. But I don't think that has worked in decades (maybe since the advent of 4WD) given the nature of the sport. In this way, despite the recent domination of the Sebastians, I think rally has the upper hand to many motorsports in being a proper meritocracy.

P.S. what a refreshing thread

[GigiGalliNo1]

I wonder if NOT is Santa Clause?

[N.O.T]

I wonder if NOT is Santa Clause?

i prefer krampus, far more exciting.

[Revman]

Sure appreciate this forum. Great information.

[Myrvold]

Regarding snow rallies. If it have just been snowing, or there is loose snow on the road. It won't be a benefit to start first. If the roads are icy, and solid - with no loose snow on top. It is an advantage to run first, as the studs will rip into the ice, and cause the "Ice-dust" to settle on top, which in turn will make it more slippery for the next driver, and this gradually gets worse and worse for each car that passes.

[Revman]

How do the cars get from stage to stage?

[Revman]

kirungi okwogera,

I am glad that you find the thread refreshing. I was worried that it might be too elementary, but I sure appreciate the information. What a fabulous sport!

[Hartusvuori]

How do the cars get from stage to stage?

While being state-of-the-art racing machines, they are road legal cars too. And have to remain so, meaning if a crew happen to lose a wheel on stages, they can't criple to service as three wheel car. They could, but regs don't allow. It've been strickened since last years. Earlier it was possible.

[OldF]

If you are interested about technical stuff you can follow homologation of cars.
http://www.fia.com/regulation/category/760
Open 2017 Complete list of homologated vehicles with extensions

If you want to read sporting regulations http://www.fia.com/regulation/category/119
2017 Sporting regulations and appendices.

About regulations http://www.fia.com/regulation/category/123

These specific regulations don’t tell so much because there are some homologations regulations that aren’t public.

And of course I can’t resist to advertise my home WRC rally by a couple of videos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeeV06bmTfs&feature=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q42jT7AsNFE

[seb_sh]

How do the cars get from stage to stage?


While being state-of-the-art racing machines, they are road legal cars too. And have to remain so, meaning if a crew happen to lose a wheel on stages, they can't criple to service as three wheel car. They could, but regs don't allow. It've been strickened since last years. Earlier it was possible.

To add to this, it's in the spirit and base rules of rallying that the cars complete all the route on their own power, without outside assistance except for designated service zones. So except for service only the crews (driver and co-driver) are allowed to work on the car and only using tools and parts found in the car.

There are some exceptions for example for refilling the radiator with water from nearby creeks, or even some Corona beer if that's more readily available (true story).

In the old days the rules were a bit less strict and cars could crawl on 3 wheels to the next service or service points were not as strictly enforced. On the Monte Carlo some teams even did mid-stage tyre changes!

Another interesting detail is the cars have two operating modes: stage and road. The stage mode is used in competition and everything is turned to 11 (turbo, engine mapping, anti-lag, diffs etc.) road is more tame and used on the road sections.

[N.O.T]

also all proper rally cars are equipped with a "road" ECU map for fuel economy and engine maintenance which they use on road sections.

[MrJan]

In the old days the rules were a bit less strict and cars could crawl on 3 wheels to the next service or service points were not as strictly enforced. On the Monte Carlo some teams even did mid-stage tyre changes!

Not even 'the old days', seem to remember Loeb doing it fairly recently. Although in '96/'97 (around then, can't recall which exact year) Makinen lost a rear wheel in Rally GB but was stopped by the police from carrying on. IIRC Gronholm had a similar problem a few years later. Of course the cars still have to comply with traffic laws of the country, people have been stopped for speeding in the past at several events.

Things didn't used to be quite so strict there's a great video of Ari Vatanen on a rally in the UK where they borrow the driveshaft from a spectator's road car (think it was a Capri)

Edit: Was actually the diff - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LmzOKiJfiQ

[Gregor-y]

1976 Scttish Rally. Not the worst way to kill forty minutes of your time. With the exception of a few Finns it's very British, though.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=RGQDBlLA_RE

[Mirek]

Not even 'the old days', seem to remember Loeb doing it fairly recently. Although in '96/'97 (around then, can't recall which exact year) Makinen lost a rear wheel in Rally GB but was stopped by the police from carrying on. IIRC Gronholm had a similar problem a few years later. Of course the cars still have to comply with traffic laws of the country, people have been stopped for speeding in the past at several events.

Things didn't used to be quite so strict there's a great video of Ari Vatanen on a rally in the UK where they borrow the driveshaft from a spectator's road car (think it was a Capri)

Edit: Was actually the diff - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LmzOKiJfiQ

The reason why it is now forbidden is exactly that the outcome was completely unpredictable and as such quite unfair. Sometimes the traffic police closed eyes and the show went on (Loeb in Mexico for example), sometimes the police was strict and the crew was fucked (Mäkinen in GB). Now the rules are stricter but same for everybody.

[Revman]

Talk to me about Hanninen.....Seems like a journeyman type of driver. Did development work for Hyundai and now Toyota....Does this guy have rally winning potential?

[seb_sh]

The reason why it is now forbidden is exactly that the outcome was completely unpredictable and as such quite unfair. Sometimes the traffic police closed eyes and the show went on (Loeb in Mexico for example), sometimes the police was strict and the crew was fucked (Mäkinen in GB). Now the rules are stricter but same for everybody.

I remember Gronholm in GB, something like:
Policeman: I can't let you continue
Gronholm: But I can continue
Policeman: No you can't
Gronholm: But I can, I know I can, if you let me

[seb_sh]

Talk to me about Hanninen.....Seems like a journeyman type of driver. Did development work for Hyundai and now Toyota....Does this guy have rally winning potential?

Not really. He's a good development driver and had some success in inferior and regional categories but he's exceptional and never got a proper shot at the WRC. The main reason Toyota has him is his development skills and for reference, because they tested a lot with him so his performance this year will show them how the car is coming along, plus he can continue to help develop the car on actual rallies. I expect him to have a more limited role next year.

his career: http://www.ewrc-results.com/profile.php?p=41&t=Juho-Hanninen

[Mirek]

Talk to me about Hanninen.....Seems like a journeyman type of driver. Did development work for Hyundai and now Toyota....Does this guy have rally winning potential?

Juho's main problem is lack of WRC experience. He isn't young anymore and can't afford to just drive around to collect experience and that's a viscious circle. He was both faster and more reliable than Mikkelsen and Neuville few years back in IRC but those two were young, picked by WRC teams, got experience on the WRC level and now they are where they are while Juho spent most of the time driving a family tractor in Finland with some occasional starts which usually ended with a crash from trying to show too hard that he's still capable of something).

On the bright side - he is vey funny guy with great stage-end comments in Grönholm style, nice guy to talk with and also an author of possibly most funny rally accident ever when after several rolls his car ended on wheels on the roof of some house (at first he even tried to continue driving) :D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwiJOqQFahY

Besides that he is WRC2, ERC and IRC champion.

[N.O.T]

Talk to me about Hanninen.....Seems like a journeyman type of driver. Did development work for Hyundai and now Toyota....Does this guy have rally winning potential?

he is nothing in the WRC, c class driver.

[Revman]

Thank you for the replies re: Hanninen.....This is kind of what I gathered with my research.

Talk to me about Latvalla please.....Seems like he has talent. Eager to have a better season than last. Potential rally winner if the car is right?

Additionally, Lappi taking the place of Hanninen next year? Seems that Latvalla took his spot this year--for good reason, but still took his spot.

Finally, without the exit of Volkswagen and the addition of Latvalla, Toyota would be hurting in the cockpit it seems...

[N.O.T]

Latvala should not be in the WRC but his daddy pays to drive when he messes up, the toyota team prefered latvala from mikkelsen because the ex-manager of tommi makinen is the manager of latvala.

[pantealex]

It´s Latvala (not Latvalla, not all names in Finland with double consonant)

And team boss Mäkinen (not Makkinen) is 4 times WRC champion.

Don´t worry, after Monte you will be lot wiser than now, some things are much easier learn when they are actually happening.

[Mirek]

Thank you for the replies re: Hanninen.....This is kind of what I gathered with my research.

Talk to me about Latvalla please.....Seems like he has talent. Eager to have a better season than last. Potential rally winner if the car is right?

Additionally, Lappi taking the place of Hanninen next year? Seems that Latvalla took his spot this year--for good reason, but still took his spot.

Finally, without the exit of Volkswagen and the addition of Latvalla, Toyota would be hurting in the cockpit it seems...

Latvala has been doing the same for years. When he has a good day and doesn't make any mistake he can win but only from time to time as usually he either crashes or picks up a puncture or whatever which ruins his result. He has very strong backing and has been in the WRC for roughly a decade but actually he never fullfiled the expectations. If it was up to me I would take Mikkelsen over Latvala any day.

Lappi is rather young, definitely fast on lower levels but so far he has had no chance to drive WRC. He has been also very very accident prone (that's similar to Latvala). His main weakness is asphalt because he managed to crash in nearly all asphalt events he did in his career and what is particularly interesting he's been crashing near exclusively in right-hand corners (Hartusvuori found that). What is also interesting is that so far he has usually managed well to maintain the lead but had problems to keep the car on the road if he needed to catch someone in front of him.

[kirungi okwogera]

Thank you for the replies re: Hanninen.....This is kind of what I gathered with my research.

Talk to me about Latvalla please.....Seems like he has talent. Eager to have a better season than last. Potential rally winner if the car is right?

Additionally, Lappi taking the place of Hanninen next year? Seems that Latvalla took his spot this year--for good reason, but still took his spot.

Finally, without the exit of Volkswagen and the addition of Latvalla, Toyota would be hurting in the cockpit it seems...

Yes if VW was still in I'd be confident Toyota would be the weakest team. They may still be, but no one can deny that Latvala is capable of winning one or two rallies every year. But no more - his 16 wins have come in basically 11 years' full time WRC driving. He is very consistent in his inconsistency. He is fast, crashes a lot, breaks the car a lot, and occasionally avoids those pitfalls and wins.

Toyota had always said they were treating this year as Hyundai and VW (through their year when Ogier ran in a Super 2000 Fabia while they developed their first WRC car) treated their first year rallying - development, not results. But they chose Latvala, who is a good driver but appears to have reached the limits of his ability about 8 years ago, if you want to be harsh. They could have concentrated on developing a younger driver Lappi who might go farther with experience. Maybe that's their plan and they'll enter him in most rallies.

What really puzzles me is why they didn't leap for Mikkelson, who was championship runner up last year, over Latvala. N.O.T will tell you it's Finnish networking/chauvinism from the Finn-led, Finland based team.

Hanninen is a journeyman but he is the best journeyman I can think of - he's been champion in several minor classes, but not many chances in WRC. I would not expect wins. But then, I said that about Meeke, who also got his proper WRC chance quite late in his career, and he's grabbed a few.

As you are a Toyota fan I'd advise you to look to this year as a show of potential for the future at best. In my opinion the team will have a better chance of excelling with younger, less-tested drivers beyond that. Latvala is exciting and likeable but everyone who has watched the years of his career knows he will not bring them championships and crashes out enough not to be a solid points getter.

[seb_sh]

After 8 pages, I actually have some questions for you, Revman, if you don't mind :)

What's your background related to motorsport? Why the Toyota fandom?
How did you hear about WRC? What made you get into it?

To add a bit about the drivers: Hanninen was chosen for his development skills and is driving this year more as a test driver/reference. Lappi was chosen because he's an up and coming star that showed good speed, even if he is crash prone, Makinen probably hopes he can groom him to be more consistent. After VW thing Latvala was basically an available more experienced Lappi with good testing/setup skills.

[SubaruNorway]

Talking of outside assistance, there was a funny incident on Rally Telemark in Norway this autumn where a driver first says on the radio that he's been filling air in a tyre at gas stations, then drives back into service to fix something after already leaving TC out! Yet no punishment...

[Rallyper]

Like Pantealex said you´ll see much happeningalready from first rally in 2017 and also in coming years. Old drivers disappearing from the scene, new drivers gaining up speed, winning their first events etz, etz.
For the real fans 2017 will be the first year for long time when outcome is as unpredictable.

[MrJan]

Now the rules are stricter but same for everybody.

Don't necessarily disagree, was just saying that it's been different until recently.

Of the Toyota drivers I think Lappi is the best prospect. He's not proven at this level but he is nonetheless a quick driver, and young enough to learn how not to crash. Hanninen is past that phase, he's an accident prone driver that's too old to change (imo). In fact that's probably the story of Juho's career, just a bit too old to have the breaks (seems to be working out for Meeke though). Latvala is one of the nicest guys in WRC and (unlike Loeb and Ogier) actually has a personality and feelings. He's quick when everything is perfect but more often than not suffers from psychological pressures, if the car is halfway decent then he can win rallies, but I won't be putting money on it for 2017.

[stefanvv]

Latvala is one of the nicest guys in WRC and (unlike Loeb and Ogier) actually has a personality and feelings.

I don't agree with that. Both French are very emotional, but when it goes to driving, they just do it.

[Zeakiwi]

I hope Hanninen can do better than others comments suggest. I expect the Toyota Yaris wrc has been engineered for a 'Finnish driving style' more than early Hyundai was and has the active diff etc.
https://youtu.be/tReVALkmqhI
The driver coaching / data feedback with Gazoo may have improved a few aspects of Hanninen's driving.

[Revman]

It´s Latvala (not Latvalla, not all names in Finland with double consonant)

And team boss Mäkinen (not Makkinen) is 4 times WRC champion.

Don´t worry, after Monte you will be lot wiser than now, some things are much easier learn when they are actually happening.

Apologies on the misspellings.

No question I will start to understand the sport as the season starts. However, I am working hard to prepare. I want to appreciate this sport straight away....and I can tell you this, I am impressed and enjoying the preparation. Wish Toyota would have maintained involvement from the 90's....but I am glad to be back.

[Revman]

Talk to me about how service works. Is there one service stop mid-rally, and then all other repairs, etc. must be done by the drivers? At the service stop, can everything be changed?

[Revman]

Please talk to me about Toyota's entry.....

The car originated at TMG in Cologne....then Mäkinen took over development. Where is the car being developed now?

[Rallyper]

Here are some useful links:

Toyota WRC team: https://toyotagazooracing.com/

1st round in 2017 Rally Monte Carlo (downloads, very useful docs) : http://acm.mc/en/rallye-monte-carlo/13903-2/

Official WRC web: www.wrc.com

[Revman]

How are the courses created? Are they all existing roads--service roads, logging roads, primitive commuter roads....or are any purpose created?

[A FONDO]

99,9% existing roads. There was a rally in Jordan with some of the roads (rough gravel) created especially for the event, and in Sweden and Finland they make curvy roads over frozen lakes for training.

[Simmi]

Latvala is one of the nicest guys in WRC and (unlike Loeb and Ogier) actually has a personality and feelings.

Ogier has one of the strongest personalities in the history of the sport.

[itix]

There were far too man dead people to keep things unchanged...


Stills some organizations like Automobile Club de Monaco don't care about safety at all. On the stages of Monte Carlo once You get from the access point You can do whatever You want. There are no tapes, no marshals, nothing. Anyway for such case I would strongly recommend to go spectating together with somebody experienced.

A bit late to the party but... it isn't entirely this bad. There is some marshaling on Rally Monte Carlo but it isn't as much as other places.

What bothers me most is the fact that nobody ever pick up their shit when they leave. It's just full of garbage once a stage is finished :(

Also the marshals don't take their tasks very seriously.

[er88]

Revman, you should answer Seb_sh's questions that he asked you.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

[itix]

I was interested in cars since I was a kid. Don't ask me why, it is just in my blood somehow. I have no family and I had no friends when I was younger that had the same interest. My first word was Volvo (I'm born in sweden), so the interest for the motor vehicle has always been there.

I grew up in the middle of the country side with not much motor related to do (other than speed down the local hill in my soap box racer) so my access to motoring related things were through TV. We had two TV channels when I grew up and both were state owned (a third commercial one came later). There were almost no motor related things at all on TV but they did broadcast rallying, STCC and F1 (and Rallykalle... does anyone else from sweden remember this?).

F1's weren't really cars... they were strange things with wheels on them and it wasn't really that spectacular or interesting. STCC was ok but it didn't really have the spark. Rallying, however, immediately drew my attention. I think I was around 8 when I started watching the WRC on TV and from when I was around 10 I have been glued permanently, every event. If I had to be somewhere else I would force my mom or dad to tape it for me. I don't think there is a WRC event I haven't watched since 1999-ish. While I have tried to watch other motor sports, Rallying is still the only one I have stuck to. The first WRC event I attended was the Monte in 2014 (so it took me quite a while to actually attend a WRC rally although I did attend some smaller local events).

[dimviii]

The first WRC event I attended was the Monte in 2014 (so it took me quite a while to actually attend a WRC rally although I did attend some smaller local events).

how happened that? didn't watched Sweden wrc rally?

[MrJan]

Ogier has one of the strongest personalities in the history of the sport.

Really? He moans a lot but I wouldn't really consider that a personality, certainly not a likeable one. I wouldn't even consider him one of the biggest personalities since we left group A behind. McRae, Solberg, Gronholm, Panizzi, Markko, the other Solberg, Atko etc etc.

[rallyfiend]

Ogier has one of the strongest personalities in the history of the sport.

'Strong personality' is code for 'douchebag', isn't?

[stefanvv]

Really? He moans a lot but I wouldn't really consider that a personality.

Every driver "moans" about "something" from time to time, even Gronholm if You wish.
One the other hand, how You imagine someone to bring numerous titles without being a personality himself? Is that happen randomly, or it is just about strong personality, which knows what he wants, and how to get it?

[Rallyper]

After 8 pages, I actually have some questions for you, Revman, if you don't mind :)

What's your background related to motorsport? Why the Toyota fandom?
How did you hear about WRC? What made you get into it?

To add a bit about the drivers: Hanninen was chosen for his development skills and is driving this year more as a test driver/reference. Lappi was chosen because he's an up and coming star that showed good speed, even if he is crash prone, Makinen probably hopes he can groom him to be more consistent. After VW thing Latvala was basically an available more experienced Lappi with good testing/setup skills.

Yeah. Pls answer. It´s interesting for us to know you better.

[Rallyper]

I was interested in cars since I was a kid. Don't ask me why, it is just in my blood somehow. I have no family and I had no friends when I was younger that had the same interest. My first word was Volvo (I'm born in sweden), so the interest for the motor vehicle has always been there.

I grew up in the middle of the country side with not much motor related to do (other than speed down the local hill in my soap box racer) so my access to motoring related things were through TV. We had two TV channels when I grew up and both were state owned (a third commercial one came later). There were almost no motor related things at all on TV but they did broadcast rallying, STCC and F1 (and Rallykalle... does anyone else from sweden remember this?).

F1's weren't really cars... they were strange things with wheels on them and it wasn't really that spectacular or interesting. STCC was ok but it didn't really have the spark. Rallying, however, immediately drew my attention. I think I was around 8 when I started watching the WRC on TV and from when I was around 10 I have been glued permanently, every event. If I had to be somewhere else I would force my mom or dad to tape it for me. I don't think there is a WRC event I haven't watched since 1999-ish. While I have tried to watch other motor sports, Rallying is still the only one I have stuck to. The first WRC event I attended was the Monte in 2014 (so it took me quite a while to actually attend a WRC rally although I did attend some smaller local events).

Men Svenska då? And you should do Rally Finland!

[itix]

how happened that? didn't watched Sweden wrc rally?

It is about 5 hours drive to rally sweden region from my place and my parents weren't very rich so going 5 hours both ways plus hotel etc etc wasn't really in the budget for the joy of one family member out of 7.

When I studied I had no money (or car) and when I started working I moved to Italy (which is why the Monte was the first one).

I did watch sweden last year for the first time actually.

[MrJan]

Every driver "moans" about "something" from time to time, even Gronholm if You wish.
One the other hand, how You imagine someone to bring numerous titles without being a personality himself? Is that happen randomly, or it is just about strong personality, which knows what he wants, and how to get it?

Agreed that all drivers moan about something...except Ogier, he monas about everything :p

He may know what he wants and be very driven, doesn't make him interesting though.

[Revman]

After 8 pages, I actually have some questions for you, Revman, if you don't mind :)

What's your background related to motorsport? Why the Toyota fandom?
How did you hear about WRC? What made you get into it?

To add a bit about the drivers: Hanninen was chosen for his development skills and is driving this year more as a test driver/reference. Lappi was chosen because he's an up and coming star that showed good speed, even if he is crash prone, Makinen probably hopes he can groom him to be more consistent. After VW thing Latvala was basically an available more experienced Lappi with good testing/setup skills.

Happy to give you some background. Thank you for asking....

I have loved cars all of my life, and I have always seen motorsports as an expression of a manufacturer's ability when they are left to create. I attended my first race in 1995--an IndyCar event. At about the same time, I became fascinated with Ferrari and their involvement in F1. I loved that they tried like crazy to make a V12 work when others thought differently. Again, manufacturer creativity fascinates me.

I am passionate about Toyota largely because that was the first car I purchased, and I have never even been in another brand's showroom to purchase a car. Again, given my feeling that motorsport is a manufacturer's expression of ability, I gravitated to all things Toyota when it came to motorsport. They entered IndyCar, and although very slow, I was loyal. I struggled through the F1 years waking up at 4:00 a.m. hoping for the unthinkable which never came, yet I remained loyal. Given that I am in the USA, Toyota's next venture was NASCAR. Fortunes have been much better as Toyota captured the Driver's Championship last year, and the Manufacturer's this year. Toyota's involvement in NASCAR brought me even closer to the brand. Allow me to explain....

I saw a Toyota cap on TV in Victory Lane. I wanted that cap, but it could not be purchased anywhere. I decided to write the President of Toyota Racing Development to get a cap. I sent money as I was not looking for anything free. He send me three hats (and gave me my money back). A couple of weeks later, he invited me to be the guest of Toyota Racing Development at a race. I was given all access plus suite accommodations. I met all of the drivers. Additionally, I was given a personal tour of Toyota Racing Development. The relationship with this company has continued over the years, and I was the guest of Toyota Motorsport once again at the NASCAR race in Phoenix last month.

Toyota has taken an interest in me I think because I am a manufacturer first supporter. Even though NASCAR has tight regulations regarding the car, I am still more into the technical side of the sport rather than drooling over drivers.

So, I am a lifelong Toyota owner with a very tight relationship with this manufacturer's racing side. I love this company, and have tremendous respect for Akio Toyoda. This relationship with Toyota leads me to WRC. I love that the regulations are more open than NASCAR, and the car plus its development fascinates me. I am not a motorsports fan who needs side by side racing--although that is what NASCAR strives for. This is what I am really growing to love about WRC. A technically sophisticated machine driven brilliantly over massive changes in terrain. Drive it the fastest, and you win. This is what motorsports should be. I feel that NASCAR is sometimes consumed with manufacturing the side by side stuff, and it isn't necessary for me.

Once again, thank you for asking. I am flattered that you would care. I am enjoying my preparation for the WRC season. I am five races into my study, and really starting to feel prepared. I cannot wait for Monte Carlo!

[Rallyper]

OK. Now you´ve found the root of four-wheel motorsport. Congratulations to that. WRC is the top of the line of rallying which, I believe you´ve already understood. It contents national variations in most countries in Europe, Asia, n & S America and oc Australia and NZ.
Instead of taking one corner thousands of times like in racing a rallydriver takes thousand corners one time.
Happy to share your motorsport heritage. Now you´ve come home.

[Revman]

OK. Now you´ve found the root of four-wheel motorsport. Congratulations to that. WRC is the top of the line of rallying which, I believe you´ve already understood. It contents national variations in most countries in Europe, Asia, n & S America and oc Australia and NZ.
Instead of taking one corner thousands of times like in racing a rallydriver takes thousand corners one time.
Happy to share your motorsport heritage. Now you´ve come home.

Thank you! I have watched six rally reviews so far, and my jaw has not left the floor. Absolutely fabulous stuff! Thanks again for the welcome. I don't want to be a burden, but I sure have learned a lot since joining. Fabulous fans here for sure. You all have my respect.

[pantealex]

Dakar rally (which btw has almost nothing to do with WRC kind of events) is 2nd-14th january in Paraguay/Bolivia/Argentina , there is plenty of Toyota´s there...

Many former and current WRC drivers are driving there, like Carlos Sainz double World Rally Champion with Toyota or Sebastian Loeb 9 times World Rally Champion.

[Mirek]

Dakar route of this year shall be even more friendy for former WRC drivers than last year if I am not mistaken. Many hard mountain roads with very few desert legs.

[Googol]

Dakar route of this year shall be even more friendy for former WRC drivers than last year if I am not mistaken. Many hard mountain roads with very few desert legs.

http://urheiluuutiset.com/mikko-hirvonen-lahtee-dakariin-jarjestajat-oikein-haluavat-etta-jengi-eksyy/
http://www.dakar.com/dakar/2017/us/route.html#tab6

Mikko Hirvonen thinks it's going to be more Dakar like with less roads than last year. Also navigation is supposed to be harder this year.

[Revman]

Dakar rally (which btw has almost nothing to do with WRC kind of events) is 2nd-14th january in Paraguay/Bolivia/Argentina , there is plenty of Toyota´s there...

Many former and current WRC drivers are driving there, like Carlos Sainz double World Rally Champion with Toyota or Sebastian Loeb 9 times World Rally Champion.

Yes, I have been enjoying that race for several years now. Surprisingly, we get some daily coverage in the USA.

I am a little concerned about my Toyotas, however. They were set up to take a two wheel drive Hilux, but testing proved that the old four wheel drive would be better. De Villiers commented last year that they needed more performance, and I was hoping that the Evo would provide that. Having said all of that, anything can happen. Toyota really wants this race.

[Simmi]

Dakar route of this year shall be even more friendy for former WRC drivers than last year if I am not mistaken. Many hard mountain roads with very few desert legs.

Like Googol says I think it is actually the other way around. I read a quote from Loeb this week saying he fears it will be decided by navigation rather than the speed of the driver/performance of the car. Which he says is less interesting to him.

In Dakar for sure the driver is not always the most important guy in the car.

[pantealex]

Revman:

http://latvalamotorsport.com/before17/kalusto_uk.htm

Latvala already have some Toyota´s in his garage... and he has actually driven many rallies with them 2001-2007 http://www.ewrc-results.com/profile.php?p=31&t=Jari-Matti-Latvala

http://www.ewrc-results.com/carinfo.php?cid=21&spz=556 Here you can find history of almost every rally car and drivers. Very good place to study things

[Revman]

Revman:

http://latvalamotorsport.com/before17/kalusto_uk.htm

Latvala already have some Toyota´s in his garage... and he has actually driven many rallies with them 2001-2007 http://www.ewrc-results.com/profile.php?p=31&t=Jari-Matti-Latvala


http://www.ewrc-results.com/carinfo.php?cid=21&spz=556 Here you can find history of almost every rally car and drivers. Very good place to study things

Thank you very much!

[lewalcindor]

If you're interested in some Toyota rally history, this is a good starter book (I'm sure you can find a hard copy somewhere online; it's only in Kindle form on Amazon now). It's comprehensive enough to delve a bit deep into the technical side of the car, yet general enough to give you an understanding of development of Toyota's first true WRC contender.

The only real quibble I have is that the author, Graham Robson, has a bit too much of a hard-on for 2-time WRC champion Carlos Sainz but writes off 4-time WRC champion Juha Kankunna as very talented but lazy. Seriously, he only has couple of paragraphs on Kankunna (in a less than flattering light) while giving Sainz a comparative hagiography.

https://www.amazon.com/Toyota-Celica-GT-Four-Rally-Giants-ebook/dp/B00WGTA6W0

To be honest, I only bought the book because it was going for $3 on Amazon at the time. I was already buying a Robson book on my favorite WRC car of all time, the Peugeot 205 T16, so I figured why not? I don't regret the purchase one bit.

[Revman]

If you're interested in some Toyota rally history, this is a good starter book (I'm sure you can find a hard copy somewhere online; it's only in Kindle form on Amazon now). It's comprehensive enough to delve a bit deep into the technical side of the car, yet general enough to give you an understanding of development of Toyota's first true WRC contender.

The only real quibble I have is that the author, Graham Robson, has a bit too much of a hard-on for 2-time WRC champion Carlos Sainz but writes off 4-time WRC champion Juha Kankunna as very talented but lazy. Seriously, he only has couple of paragraphs on Kankunna (in a less than flattering light) while giving Sainz a comparative hagiography.

https://www.amazon.com/Toyota-Celica-GT-Four-Rally-Giants-ebook/dp/B00WGTA6W0

To be honest, I only bought the book because it was going for $3 on Amazon at the time. I was already buying a Robson book on my favorite WRC car of all time, the Peugeot 205 T16, so I figured why not? I don't regret the purchase one bit.


Just purchased. Thank you very much. Love this stuff!

[Revman]

So, when a car can no longer continue a stage (transmission, engine, damage beyond repair), is that competitor out of the rally, or can they fix the car in the service park, and continue? I am guessing that car is done....

[tommeke_B]

So, when a car can no longer continue a stage (transmission, engine, damage beyond repair), is that competitor out of the rally, or can they fix the car in the service park, and continue? I am guessing that car is done....
Normally the rally was over indeed. But in the mid-2000's (I think 2005?) they introduced "Super Rally", now called rally2. An event consists for example out of 3 legs(/days). If a driver retires on the first day for example, and they can't repair the car on the spot with the tools the crew has with them, they retire for that day. Then, if the team can fix the car somewhere midnight (usually around 6 hours before the first car leaves service park again), they can restart in day 2. They are still in for the overall classification, however they lose a certain amount of time for each stage they did not drive. If I'm correct the team "loses" 7 minutes towards the fastest car in their category, on each stage they fail to drive/finish. If they retire on the last leg (last day), for example on the penultimate stage, and they can't repair the car, they are completely out of the classification. It's a strange and complex rule, which has received a lot of critics from all sides...

[SubaruNorway]

Rally 2 is good for us that don't care so much about the results and enjoy watching more cars on the stages though

[pantealex]

Monte-Carlo has bit different rules, if retire on saturday it´s no final day (sunday) for that crew.

in every rally if you retire in days last stage (or after that but before service park) you´ll get 10min penalty. Other wise it´s 7min/stage. And you can´t continue in the middle of day, only next morning.

[KiwiWRCfan]

Pantelax is correct that Monte Carlo have traditionally not permitted Rally 2 restarts and this was certainly the case up until 2014. The Monte Carlo organizers had a change of mind and did allow Rally 2 restarts in 2015 and 2016.

Rally 2 restarts provide several benefits.
For spectators it means they can see more cars on 2nd and 3rd days of rally.
For teams it gives them more opportunity to gather data on their cars, this will be particularly important in 2017 with all teams having new cars, Toyota as a returning team will find the rally 2 rule helpful.
For drivers it means more opportunity to learn the characteristics of that rally, particularly since it will be a year before they get a chance to drive those roads again.

In terms of rebuilds here is a link to a recent legendary rebuild of a WRC car http://www.crash.net/wrc/feature/215368/1/the-making-of-titanak.html

[raybak]

I was first to use Super Rally in NZ 2005, even showed the MSport guys what they had to do. We actually DNF'd all three days :(

Ray

[Revman]

Alright, I have watched the race reviews of every rally from '16. I am as ready as I am ever going to be I think. I know that you guys probably have a way you watch and dialogue about the rallies, so I will be watching the forum closely for insights. If you feel that something unique is happening during a rally, I would really appreciate it if you would let me know. I think that I understand the basics, but it is the nuances of racing that really fascinates me. Thank you for all of your patience, and dialogue. Great forum for a great sport.

[lewalcindor]

If you want an idea of how the WRC was like in the older days, WRC's youtube channel has a bunch of the the older rally reviews. For example, here is Day 1 of the 2001 Monte Carlo Rally:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDWFAJbHdD4

The channel also has a full 50+ minute review of entire rallies, but I prefer the 26 minute day-by-day versions. Fans seem to agree that 2001 was perhaps the best year in the WRC - many former and future WRC champs, and probably the last year that specialists were able to win their specialized rallies.

Overall, the channel appears to have rally reviews from 2001-2008. Unfortunately, I don't think you can download the reviews even via external download websites because WRC didn't make the download links public (though I'm sure there are other means you can use to download - I'm not tech savvy enough to figure them out).

There are other non-official youtube channels that have older WRC reviews from before 2001.

[A FONDO]

speaking about that :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EY8VhgMb3Ko Rallye Monte Carlo 1994 Best of by Rallye Luminy13

[A FONDO]

and of course this... remember Tanak's man-hand evacuation? and other interesting drivers and cars we will not see this time https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ELveY0MrhM Highlights rallye Monte Carlo 2015 by Ouhla lui

[Revman]

I have the same excitement waiting for the first rally as I have had waiting for the NASCAR opener. Thinking that I am going to love this!

[Rallyper]

So are you doing Sweden as well? (Knowing you´re in Europe a few weeks earlier)

[Revman]

So are you doing Sweden as well? (Knowing you´re in Europe a few weeks earlier)

No, I won't be at a rally live....just following along via the WRC site, etc. So excited!

[AndyRAC]

This is Rally! 70's 80's 90's Edition - with Pure Engine Sounds (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9JA9CibQmU)
Rally Group B - Tribute (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INwqyPct8qY)
WRC "Lombard RAC Rally" 1983 ("Group B") (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jardH4n5Iow&t=78s)

Some videos from when Rallying was really popular - and could rival F1......

[lewalcindor]

If you want an idea of how the WRC was like in the older days, WRC's youtube channel has a bunch of the the older rally reviews. For example, here is Day 1 of the 2001 Monte Carlo Rally:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDWFAJbHdD4

The channel also has a full 50+ minute review of entire rallies, but I prefer the 26 minute day-by-day versions. Fans seem to agree that 2001 was perhaps the best year in the WRC - many former and future WRC champs, and probably the last year that specialists were able to win their specialized rallies.

Overall, the channel appears to have rally reviews from 2001-2008. Unfortunately, I don't think you can download the reviews even via external download websites because WRC didn't make the download links public (though I'm sure there are other means you can use to download - I'm not tech savvy enough to figure them out).

I learned today that I can't even cast the videos on my new 55 inch TV via Chromecast. So that's a bummer. I'll just have to keep watching them on my tablet then.

[Revman]

Questions about pre-rally work:

1) NASCAR relies heavily on simulation work prior to an event due to a lack of testing. Do rally teams utilize simulators?

2) After the pre-rally (test day), how much adjusting do the teams do? How in the hell do they tune to a course that has so much potential for change?

[Revman]

More questions...

1. Will the shake down times be available? If so, WRC+?
2. How do you follow a rally when not there live? WRC+?, TV?, Live Timing? I want to take in the rally in the proper way.....

[itix]

More questions...

1. Will the shake down times be available? If so, WRC+?
2. How do you follow a rally when not there live? WRC+?, TV?, Live Timing? I want to take in the rally in the proper way.....

1. Shake down times are for me easiest read on e-wrc results.

2. WRC+ Maps, forum, Twitter... Rally radio is a great source of info. Autosport have a semi annoying text update if you are somewhere with slow Internet.

[Franky]

Itix, you forgot the splits.

[N.O.T]

More questions...

1. Will the shake down times be available? If so, WRC+?
2. How do you follow a rally when not there live? WRC+?, TV?, Live Timing? I want to take in the rally in the proper way.....

Your typical browser setup for when the rallies are live should include 3 basic tabs

1. wrc.com to follow the splits (when they work that is).
2. this forum where you can get last minute info (pictures, videos ects) on the official rally threads and of course endless banter.
3. https://rally-base.com/ where you can follow the results and usually they have drivers comments at the end of some stages.

4. (optional) is the rally radio, i would recommend it, since you are new to the sport since they provide some good info and interviews, just do not take them too seriously since their knowledge is pleb level stuff.

since you are in the USA the web page below will help you to find out when each stage begins on each country

https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/

[Rallyper]

I would also suggest Twitter after choosing proper accounts to follow, like MSport, Citroen. Just search. There you also find ewrc-results. I think Twitter might be fastest way of getting info, especially official info from teams.

[N.O.T]

I would also suggest Twitter after choosing proper accounts to follow, like MSport, Citroen. Just search. There you also find ewrc-results. I think Twitter might be fastest way of getting info, especially official info from teams.

99% of the important tweets are posted in here, so no need to bother.

[Rallyper]

99% of the important tweets are posted in here, so no need to bother.

No only 33%. And we can´t only rely on Dimviii. ;)

[MrJan]

More questions...

1. Will the shake down times be available? If so, WRC+?
2. How do you follow a rally when not there live? WRC+?, TV?, Live Timing? I want to take in the rally in the proper way.....

I sometimes have rally radio on and a look at the timing, but for the most part I don't really bother keeping up with it live. Partly that's because it's difficult to do when working, but also I've grown up being used to standing out on the stages and not knowing who wins a rally until you read about it in Motorsport News later in the week. Even now, where it's possible on most national rallies to follow live times on a phone, I tend not to look at results until the end of the day.

BTW, shakedown tends to be a bit of an indication rather than a true representation of how quick people will be. You can draw some conclusions from it but just because x, y & z are 1,2,3 in shakedown doesn't mean that they'll be quickest. I suspect that Monte this season will be even less of an indication as some may be sandbagging a bit. Also there's a risk, if someone trashes their car so bad that the team can't repair it then they can't start the event. It's not a common thing to happen, but we have seen it quite a few times. IIRC Ken Block did it a few years back with a giant off, possibly in Portugal.

[Franky]

MrJan, another reality is that it's really hard to work, when following the rally live online. Usually I just have to not check anything rally related or forget work and just follow the rally.

[pantealex]

Since you are beginner, keep WRC.com live radio on.

Look split times, you can compare drives how they progress.

Make notes what kind of tires each driver chooses, they will drive 3 stages with same tires, somebody will gain first stages and maybe loose everything for next. Prepare for mixed strategy: 2 studded and 2 non studded winter tires, 1 of each in both end of car.

[Mariusz]

More questions...
2. How do you follow a rally when not there live? WRC+?, TV?, Live Timing? I want to take in the rally in the proper way.....

Remember that it's a 3-day event, so there is no way to be at a computer the whole time. Install the official wrc+ app on your android smartphone and just listen to the live WRC radio
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=laola1.wrc&hl=en The app has also live results with split times.

[jparker]

This is an easy to follow guide provided by Hyundai Motorsport:
https://motorsport.hyundai.com/mcklein-rally-tips-rally-monte-carlo-2017/

[A FONDO]

First time I ever open the Hyundai official site but I like how they present information for people with no or limited knowledge of rally sport. This one also reveals some of the basics https://motorsport.hyundai.com/wrc/inside-wrc/

[Revman]

Thank you to all with your suggestions and input regarding following rallies. I AM LOVING THIS! Just fabulous! Because of your generosity, I have been able to follow and understand everything. Very proud of my Toyotas heading into Sunday! Very exciting stuff. However, Toyota cannot be romanced into thinking that they have arrived already. Quality drivers had problems which has paved the way for Jari-Matti to be on the podium overnight. Still, the pace looks pretty good, and the drivers are relatively happy. Good news!

[pantealex]

Sweden will be totally different event, so much faster with real studded tyres.

Portugal is first event which tell truth about cars performance.

[Doon]

Sweden will be totally different event, so much faster with real studded tyres.

Portugal is first event which tell truth about cars performance.

I know "experts" have always said this about a new set of cars performance, but generally you've been able to tell how quick a car is going to be from Sweden because it's not just Scandinavians that are quick there anymore. With Mexico the teams have to deal with power sapping altitude; however, the winners there have always been quick cars and it doesn't throw up any surprises in terms of pace. Another contributing factor are the regulations, WRC cars have all been quite close in terms of pace since 1.6T started.

I agree that Monte Carlo can throw up a surprise because of the adverse / changeable weather conditions, but from Sweden on I think we'll see who are the real challengers are.

[Mintexmemory]

Sweden will be totally different event, so much faster with real studded tyres.

Portugal is first event which tell truth about cars performance.
I repeat the point I made on the RMC thread - In 8 of the past 10 WRC editions the Monte winner has ended up as WDC. This is more a reflection of driver pace and adaptability, but the qualities that make a Monte winner seem to be those that produce the right mix of speed and consistency throughout the season.
Ogier in a wheelbarrow would be a serious contender, the Fiesta looks a bit better than that!

[MM WRC]

I repeat the point I made on the RMC thread - In 8 of the past 10 WRC editions the Monte winner has ended up as WDC.

That's probably due to Loeb being a Monte expert and Ogier also hailing from the region...

However, my main issue here is that I had WRC+ last year and decided to try the free Red Bull TV version to watch the Monte. It was a big, positive surprise - actually the daily highlights were even better than in WRC+ (instead of showing 10 minutes of previous day stuff like WRC+, they had Matt Wilson talking about interesting things for the time). Of course Red Bull TV only had one live stage, but I'm not going to subscribe WRC+ again this year, at least...

[Franky]

Sorry, but RB.tv coverage is like rallying for dummies. I watched the third leg coverage. The only bonus is that they've got the extra bits but those are a bit too dummed down. And for me Paul King is no better than Jon Desborough.

[MM WRC]

Sorry, but RB.tv coverage is like rallying for dummies. I watched the third leg coverage. The only bonus is that they've got the extra bits but those are a bit too dummed down. And for me Paul King is no better than Jon Desborough.

I think Desborough is ok... and yes, it's a bit too much 'for dummies' but good enough in my opinion. It's 50 euros a year cheaper, anyway, and as I said I don't have to watch the first day highlights all over again every time I watch something else.

[KiwiWRCfan]

questions for Revman.
Now that you followed three WRC events what do you think so far ? Are you enjoying the events ? Are you looking forward to rest of WRC season ?

[Revman]

Thank you so much for caring enough to ask..... Simply, I am absolutely in love with this sport. 100% enjoyed the first three events (obviously Sweden was incredible). As Jari-Matti was in the hunt Sunday of Sweden, I got up in the middle of the night to watch the power stage. Just awesome! What I love the most is the technical aspects of the cars, the set up philosophies, & changing tracks. I think that motorsports in general have moved away from the open development of cars to make sure that competition stays close. I love that a significant part of the WRC is the cars. WRC.com and WRC Plus have given me very acceptable coverage and ways to follow. So, in sum, this sport is exceeding my expectations in terms of my enjoyment! Great stuff! Without question, I am looking forward to the rest of the season!

[Revman]

A couple of newbie questions:

1) How does the recee work? Do the drivers drive the Volvos around the courses on Thursday with co-drivers, and make the notes. Do they already have the notes? How fast do they go? How are they scheduled?

2) How do the gravel crews work? Do they go out in the morning of the rallies to get current conditions, etc. Do they go out each day? How fast do they go? How are they scheduled?

3) Still trying to get my head around the running order. Am I correct that the Championship leader goes first on all Stages on Fridays, and then the order is determined according to the rally standings with the slowest first? Is last always better?

Thanks in advance.

[N.O.T]

1. the recce takes place the week before the rally starts they usually cover the stages (2 passes for each) within 2-3 days. They must have a maximum speed of 80 km/hr which is GPS controlled. they use notes from previous years if they are available. Not all recce cars are volvos, a lot use evos and subarus as well, or 2wd normal road going cars with some modifications. The schedule is provided by the organiser and they go in groups according to seeding numbers.

2. the gravel crews go through the stage around 3-4 hours before the start of each, they do not go full speed, they are just there to note any differences in the notes (slippery places, standing water, surfaced rocks ects).

3. the order goes like that.
Friday - they go according to current championship standing order
saturday and sunday - Those who retired on friday and are using superrally (only WRC cars) go first then the top 10 of friday go in reverse (it does not matter if you are in a WRC or not, if you are 10th you go first ater the friday retired crews). In general on dry gravel the later you start the better, in muddy conditions the later you start its worse, on dry tarmac if the stage has a lot of cuts then the later you start the worse it is, if it doesn;t you might have a small advantage since you can see the braking points of the car ahead.

[KKS]

1) Drivers could drive any car as they want on recce, M-Sport use Volvo's, a special volvo's with some strong protection to just survive some stages. And if you note "cut" you must actually cut on recce, so you must have a strong car if that corner have a rock. For example Lukiyanuk have a rent Norwegian recce car for Rally Sweden.
Every rally have own recce schedule, but normally it starts at Monday or Tuesday. Each driver can do 2 passes through stage, if stage or rally was new on 1st pass driver call notes and co-driver actually notes it, on 2nd pass co-driver calling notes and if something wrong - driver correct him. If this stage not new for crew - they just adjust own old notes to current situation on stage.
They have 80kph limit of max speed during a recce.

2. Gravel crew have pacenotes from main crew and just check if something special not come to the stage (ice, mud on tarmac rallys etc). They do ~2hrs before main cars are doing a stage, they didn't have a speed limit or so. And every stage have time witch close to different cars, for public, for safety... and all this times published by organizer, you can easily find it on rally web site.

3. On 1st day all on championship order. 2nd and 3rd day - all finished RC1 cars in reverse order, then Rally2 RC1 cars and then all other as they finish prev. day.

[USER47]

In regards to recce and notes, check out this video from Paddon, it has some details on the process.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9q7EYVJL9XU

[Simmi]

2) How do the gravel crews work? Do they go out in the morning of the rallies to get current conditions, etc. Do they go out each day? How fast do they go? How are they scheduled?

The biggest thing to say about gravel crews is that, despite the name, they are not used on gravel rallies. They are only used on the tarmac events - and only for the full WRC crews. The only exception is Monte Carlo, where the entire field are permitted an 'ice crew' if they want. It works the same way.

As others have said - they come through around 2 hours before the stage. There's doesn't seem to be an exact time or order they are able to come through. Seems to be a balance between coming through as late as possible to get the most accurate conditions, but also having enough time to convey the information to the co-drivers.

These two-man crews use the same reccy cars the drivers/co-drivers used earlier in the week. Quite cool too is the fact that these crews are often ex or even current driver/co-drivers. Examples are Mikko Hirvonen helping Craig Breen this year. Simon Jean-Joseph as Ogier's long-term guy. Pierro Liatti and Fabrizia Pons did gravel crew for Paddon last season.

[Revman]

Thank you for the responses. Very much appreciated. What an absolutely fabulous form of motorsport this is!!!!!

[Revman]

I have moved to the level of WRC addiction.

1) I cannot sleep during Rally weekends. I get up several times in the night (US Pacific time) to either watch WRC Plus, or simply watch the splits come in.
2) I spend my free time watching Rally replays to prepare for the next event.
3) I just spent 2x what a hat would cost me in the States to purchase a Toyota Gazoo WRC hat.

I love my NASCAR over here in the States--don't get me wrong, but WRC is true racing to me. I don't need the side-by-side stuff some crave. I want sophisticated, finely tuned, highly engineered, even exotic racing machines going as fast as talented drivers can drive them. I watch times. I love that stuff. In terms of pure racing---this is what I have been looking for all of my life. Just love it! Thank you for putting up with me. This forum has taught--and continues to teach me--so much! My thanks to all of you!!!!

[Simmi]

I have moved to the level of WRC addiction.

1) I cannot sleep during Rally weekends. I get up several times in the night (US Pacific time) to either watch WRC Plus, or simply watch the splits come in.
2) I spend my free time watching Rally replays to prepare for the next event.
3) I just spent 2x what a hat would cost me in the States to purchase a Toyota Gazoo WRC hat.

I love my NASCAR over here in the States--don't get me wrong, but WRC is true racing to me. I don't need the side-by-side stuff some crave. I want sophisticated, finely tuned, highly engineered, even exotic racing machines going as fast as talented drivers can drive them. I watch times. I love that stuff. In terms of pure racing---this is what I have been looking for all of my life. Just love it! Thank you for putting up with me. This forum has taught--and continues to teach me--so much! My thanks to all of you!!!!

Cool to hear Revman. Have you checked out older seasons of the WRC? There's some good stuff if you search around on YouTube. There are some absolute golden years during the 90s, plus the Group B machinery from the mid 80s is epic.

[Eli]

Cool to hear Revman. Have you checked out older seasons of the WRC? There's some good stuff if you search around on YouTube. There are some absolute golden years during the 90s, plus the Group B machinery from the mid 80s is epic.

On top of that (or below) you can search for seasons in the modern era (last 15 years, might not be golden but easier to find on youtube at least) which were quite tight at the time such as the: 2003,2007,2009 (you will find it in dailymotion, not youtube) & to get a better insight about Ogier, the 2011 season.

[Mirek]

Let him some sleep guys, he can't watch everything at once ;)

[Revman]

I have briefly checked out older seasons, but honestly, I am spending most of my time learning this season. My philosophy is kind of to understand the present in order to appreciate the past if you know what I mean. I feel that I have a basic understanding of the sport right now, but much more to learn really. I am thinking that during the winter months, I will be studying quite a bit to understand the history of this great sport.

[Franky]

Revman, I sense that you've reached the point of no return.

[Revman]

Let him some sleep guys, he can't watch everything at once ;)

No joke. Last weekend was rough. I seriously could not sleep. I was vacationing with my family, and my wife found me in the bathroom at about 3 a.m. watching WRC on my phone. She just shook her head, and went back to bed. She remembers my routine when Toyota was in F1. LOL.

[Revman]

Revman, I sense that you've reached the point of no return.


Truly. It's over. I'm in....and I love it. Seriously I saw the broadcasts from Stages 21 and 23 from last weekend, and I simply couldn't stop watching. The cars are fabulous and driven to the limit by absolutely incredible drivers. Great stuff.

[AndyRAC]

If you watch stuff from the 70s/ 80s, then you'll realise that its almost a different sport. There are two excellent DVDs made by Duke; The Greatest Years of Rallying; 1970s and 1980s. Highly recommended.

[Mirek]

It's also on youtube ;)

1970' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGb4CmVPURM
1980' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNRuiqowbeo

[Eli]

It's also on youtube ;)

1970' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGb4CmVPURM
1980' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNRuiqowbeo

Hey you guys, I thought you wanted him to get some sleep ;)

[seb_sh]

On top of that (or below) you can search for seasons in the modern era (last 15 years, might not be golden but easier to find on youtube at least) which were quite tight at the time such as the: 2003,2007,2009 (you will find it in dailymotion, not youtube) & to get a better insight about Ogier, the 2011 season.

I'd add 2001 and the '94-'97 as great years to watch.

Although maybe a bit less exciting the Loeb era is important to watch in order to get an idea of how (boringly) dominant he was.

[Eli]

I'd add 2001 and the '94-'97 as great years to watch.

Although maybe a bit less exciting the Loeb era is important to watch in order to get an idea of how (boringly) dominant he was.


Well 2003 season wasn't boring at all, at the time they said it was the most exciting season in years (before Citroen would come to dominate both titles), 2007 was a heck of a duel between Loeb & Gronholm which unfortunately was lost by an error from Marcus in Ireland (which is by the way, when I started watching the WRC) in stage 4. 2009 season started out really boring with 5/5 wins for Loeb but after that, caught many people's attention. 2011 is just so you can see the beginning of Citroen's trouble, a hint of things to come..and the tension that is the rivalry between Loeb & Ogier.

[AnttiL]

I'd add 2001 and the '94-'97 as great years to watch.

I think 94-96 was a bit lame with the rotating events and Toyota penalty year. 1997 was still a bit lame with only three teams but still very tight and interesting with the new cars. 1998-1999 was super tight and interesting with new teams and drivers all the time. 2000-2003 was still very good as well, it was like a new generation of drivers and teams coming in. All those aforementioned years I followed pretty intensely, after that I stopped following the sport completely for almost 15 years...until the WRC2017 cars and VWexit made it interesting again.

[NickRally]

Rallying was one of the first forms of motorsport that I was introduced to as a kid many years ago, but my following tailed off once I went to university. I started following it again couple of years ago and I am loving it. What I really enjoy this season is that, for me personally, it represents the missing 1987 and beyond (yes, I was there as a teenager), it is what rallying should have been back then, i.e. instead of banning Group B, FIA should (as originally planned) have imposed power restrictions and also introduce greater safety measures on the cars and impose better spectators control, while keeping the excitement of Groups B and S. Basically it should have gone in the direction of the current season. So I really enjoy this. On top of that, we have a stunningly exciting season.

[Mirek]

I agree that the first gr.A cars were quite boring and lame compared to gr.B but later even gr.A cars become really spectacular. I personally really love those videos from early 1990' even though I could not visit the events myself.

By the way my first ever somewhat direct contact with WRC was in 1995 Brno carshow (aside of watching Eurosport and WRC photo calendars which my father gave me every year). I was ten years old back then and there was gr.A Impreza 555 of Carlos Sainz on display there and I run there and sat inside. And that's how it started :)

[Duvel]

I agree that the first gr.A cars were quite boring and lame compared to gr.B but later even gr.A cars become really spectacular. I personally really love those videos from early 1990' even though I could not visit the events myself.

By the way my first ever somewhat direct contact with WRC was in 1995 Brno carshow (aside of watching Eurosport and WRC photo calendars which my father gave me every year). I was ten years old back then and there was gr.A Impreza 555 of Carlos Sainz on display there and I run there and sat inside. And that's how it started :)

My first ever rally event was Germany 2003 i believe. Not knowing how a rally works we missed all top cars at about every stage the first day.
From than on, the virus got to me, strange how you really begin to mis rally when its een a couple of months between events.

Must say we as Belgians have been lucky to have a Belgian driver in the WRC sice that period, first Duval and than Neuville.
If there's no Belgian in WRC that would take some of the fun away i'm afraid.

Also have to be honnest, National level rally's dont bother me much anymore, only going to events nearby or in combination whit small holiday.

[Jinu13]

I have moved to the level of WRC addiction.


Haha I think someone did warn you it was addictive!! :)

I'm glad you posted as I've learned a lot of things too. So much has changed since I drifted away from the sport following Subaru's departure.

[mmm]

What I really enjoy this season is that, for me personally, it represents the missing 1987 and beyond

1364

[Eli]

1364

Would be nice to see a modern day Quattro (like the prototype they unveiled in Paris 2010 Motorshow) but that is unlikely to happen now...or a Modern day 208 T16 (not an R5)....

[AnttiL]

What I really enjoy this season is that, for me personally, it represents the missing 1987 and beyond (yes, I was there as a teenager), it is what rallying should have been back then, i.e. instead of banning Group B, FIA should (as originally planned) have imposed power restrictions and also introduce greater safety measures on the cars and impose better spectators control, while keeping the excitement of Groups B and S.

Group S was actually supposed to come into effect in 1988. The teams were already working towards that and Group B evolution homologations were being limited before TDC. Group S cars would have had a small turbo engine with 300 horsepower and they could have been an instance a model that's not actually sold in the showroom at all. When I saw the test videos of 2017 cars I instantly thought of Group S.

[Mirek]

When talking about gr.S... how many of You guys know that Audi was doing development testing behind the iron curtain in Czechoslovakia where a local company even built a whole secret testing area according to their wishes? They tested there gr.B cars but also mid-engine prototypes as a part of gr.S development. The area is now deserted but at the early 90' it was used as a TV stage of Barum rally.

[AnttiL]

When talking about gr.S... how many of You guys know that Audi was doing development testing behind the iron curtain in Czechoslovakia where a local company even built a whole secret testing area according to their wishes? They tested there gr.B cars but also mid-engine prototypes as a part of gr.S development. The area is now deserted but at the early 90' it was used as a TV stage of Barum rally.

And the end result was this beast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pm53Tm7OMyQ driven by no less than Hannu Mikkola on the Goodwood Festival just some days ago.

[Mirek]

The RS002 was actually never in Dešná (the testing area in Czechoslovakia) but they tested a mid-engined mule using body panels from normal gr.B S1.

It's this car on the right side of this photo from Dešná which was published more than twenty years later.
http://sweb.cz/petrwrc/101892_11mg.jpg

The history of RS002 is also interesting. Roland Gumpert, boss of Audi Motorsport was keeping the development of mid-engined car secret from Ferdinand Piech because Piech insisted on using stock configuration for marketing purposes. That's why S1 was overpowered but clumsy monster. When Piech learned about existence of RS002 he ordered all prototypes to be destroyed. Gumpert destroyed two cars but kept the third one hidden for two decades before bringing it on public. Now it's one of the most valuable prototypes...

Revman, sorry for hijacking Your thread :p

[OldF]

On the web page macebig posted few days ago is also the history of group S.
https://rallygroupbshrine.org/group-s/group-s-history/
Lower on the page is a “short lived rumour” of the group X.

Another story about group S
http://www.racecar-engineering.com/articles/rallying-group-s/

I knew I had something in my favourites about group S and I found this. I had not read it my selves so had to take some time to read it. It’s related to same story Mirek told about. Funny story (don’t tell the boss).:)
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/group-s-rally-cars.181687/


In 1990 there was also rumours, or was what said of it, it was more than a rumour, of a new group called R or RR as it was called in another context. It was supposed to start at the beginning of 1994 but on the second half of the year the group R got resistance from manufactures, drivers and organizers whom opinion was that group A cars are enough rally cars and it was buried at the end of 1990.

In 1990 the group A cars had nice power figures so maybe the drivers was afraid the new group would give them some pussy machinery.

[Revman]

A question about Poland.....As I understand it, Ogier called for his gravel crew to asses the conditions before the start of at least one of the days when others did not. Is this correct? Is this what makes him special? Why wouldn't others do the same?

Related question....Is the gravel crew the same as the weather crew? Kind of heard both terms thrown around.

[AnttiL]

Related question....Is the gravel crew the same as the weather crew? Kind of heard both terms thrown around.

Weather crew just walks on the stage and measures the temperature of the road and sees the weather condition for tyre selection and setup choices. Gravel crew drives through the stage before the competitors and reports changes in road condition for pace note additions. Allowed now only in tarmac events.

[Mirek]

Weather crew can be basically anyone who is on stage and is in contact with the team. Even I was few times while I was basically just a spectator.

[Revman]

Weather crew just walks on the stage and measures the temperature of the road and sees the weather condition for tyre selection and setup choices. Gravel crew drives through the stage before the competitors and reports changes in road condition for pace note additions. Allowed now only in tarmac events.

Thank you. Why wouldn't WRC allow gravel crews for gravel/snow, etc.?

[Mirek]

Because it's not very helpful. On gravel or snow You always have somewhat slippery conditions and those further change with more and more cars passing (grip usually first getting better but than ruts starting to appear etc.).

On tarmac it's very different. There is very high level of grip where there is clean asphalt but sudden changes with some dirt, water etc. make it tricky and sometimes dangerous. That's why rules allow gravel crews on asphalt events.

[Revman]

Because it's not very helpful. On gravel or snow You always have somewhat slippery conditions and those further change with more and more cars passing (grip usually first getting better but than ruts starting to appear etc.).

On tarmac it's very different. There is very high level of grip where there is clean asphalt but sudden changes with some dirt, water etc. make it tricky and sometimes dangerous. That's why rules allow gravel crews on asphalt events.

Thank you.

[Mirek]

I forgot to mention where the gravel crew is the most important - Monte Carlo (it's also asphalt event per official classification). There they are used foremost to locate icy patches, especially black ice. Monte Carlo is the most tricky event in terms of conditions of all.

[AnttiL]

Thank you. Why wouldn't WRC allow gravel crews for gravel/snow, etc.?

It's expensive.


I forgot to mention where the gravel crew is the most important - Monte Carlo (it's also asphalt event per official classification). There they are used foremost to locate icy patches, especially black ice. Monte Carlo is the most tricky event in terms of conditions of all.

Probably the event where the whole gravel/ice crew tradition has started from

[Revman]

Quick question about driving technique.....

The announcers on WRC Plus said that before a driver jumps they dab the brakes to get the nose to stay down. Truth?

[dimviii]

yes at highspeed jumps.

[Revman]

yes at highspeed jumps.

Thank you.

[AnttiL]

yes at highspeed jumps.

And even more so with older cars with less advanced suspension. Mikko Hirvonen says that with the current cars you can go mostly flat out.

[Revman]

And even more so with older cars with less advanced suspension. Mikko Hirvonen says that with the current cars you can go mostly flat out.

Thank you.

[NickRally]

And of course, apart from the above stated issues with unsettling the cars over the jumps, you also have the obvious problem of not propelling the car forward as the wheels are in the air. It's a fine balancing act though, brakes before jump vs time lost in the air. Actually to put some numbers on this - at 200kph, the air drag on a current WRC car would cause around 0.2g braking and this is if the car flies straight ahead, which very often isn't the case with all sorts of pitch and yaw attitudes possible.

[Revman]

And of course, apart from the above stated issues with unsettling the cars over the jumps, you also have the obvious problem of not propelling the car forward as the wheels are in the air. It's a fine balancing act though, brakes before jump vs time lost in the air. Actually to put some numbers on this - at 200kph, the air drag on a current WRC car would cause around 0.2g braking and this is if the car flies straight ahead, which very often isn't the case with all sorts of pitch and yaw attitudes possible.

Wouldn't the car's natural tendency to be rotate forward anyway? So why the need to set the nose? Or, as you said, it's a balancing act......A bit of braking, a bit of throttle....Is the goal to land as quickly as possible given the braking while in the air? Fascinating. Thank you.

[Jinu13]

Is the goal to land as quickly as possible given the braking while in the air?

Depends on the jump. Some of the bigger ones the drivers see how far they can jump and there's records for who did the longest one, though it's just for fun. Probably not as fun for the guy who tweaks the suspension.

[USER47]

Wouldn't the car's natural tendency to be rotate forward anyway? So why the need to set the nose?
The car would generally try to tilt forward because it has an engine in front, but in high speed jump the aero will have a significant role. The huge back wings can push the butt down, tilting the nose up.

[pantealex]

Someone should but that Novikov jump with yellow C4 to Revman here...

Perfect example why they must brake sometimes.

[MrJan]

Someone should but that Novikov jump with yellow C4 to Revman here...

THis one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAofj6slRGo

[Mirek]

I think that Mitsubishi changed orientation of the engine between Evo III and IV gr.A cars to have better behavior on jumps (to reverse rotation of engine). I believe that even with cars there is similar although way weaker effect like in motocross where You can tilt the car while in the air by pushing brakes or throttle, i.e. when You need to start braking just after the jump it's better to land front end first while if You need to accelerate it's better not to do so.

[TWRC]

I think that Mitsubishi changed orientation of the engine between Evo III and IV gr.A cars to have better behavior on jumps (to reverse rotation of engine). I believe that even with cars there is similar although way weaker effect like in motocross where You can tilt the car while in the air by pushing brakes or throttle, i.e. when You need to start braking just after the jump it's better to land front end first while if You need to accelerate it's better not to do so.
I read somewhere that the 205 T16 was famous at first for tilting on jumps, because the crankshaft-flywheel-gearbox main shaft was exactly at the centre of gravity of the car, and if the driver lifted on a jump, the nose dived, if accelerated, the nose rotated upwards.

[AnttiL]

I read somewhere that the 205 T16 was famous at first for tilting on jumps, because the crankshaft-flywheel-gearbox main shaft was exactly at the centre of gravity of the car, and if the driver lifted on a jump, the nose dived, if accelerated, the nose rotated upwards.

True, and the Evo2 version fixed this issue.

[Revman]

Thank you everybody. Just fascinating to me.

[Revman]

Quick questions.....During the shakedown are all of the passes made in the same direction? Is there a maximum number of passes a car can make?

[AnttiL]

Quick questions.....During the shakedown are all of the passes made in the same direction? Is there a maximum number of passes a car can make?

Of course same direction always.

I think there's just a time limit of some hours and during that you can drive as much as you can, but mostly the drivers try won't drive more than three mandatory passes to save tyres, as the same tyres must be used in the actual race as well.

[Revman]

Of course same direction always.

I think there's just a time limit of some hours and during that you can drive as much as you can, but mostly the drivers try won't drive more than three mandatory passes to save tyres, as the same tyres must be used in the actual race as well.

Thank you.