Tilke Designing new track in Queensland

[ShiftingGears]

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,21502467-5012789,00.html

QUEENSLAND stands to become the epicentre of motorsport in the southern hemisphere with a proposed $650 million complex set to lure the world's top racing disciplines.

The first big event, a leg of the World Rally Championship, has already been sealed with Rally Australia blasting off from the site at Norwell from September next year.

There is also a compelling case for Formula One to be lured away from Melbourne's Albert Park circuit which costs the Victorian government tens of millions of dollars each year to stage.

Project bosses say the Norwell complex has been designed so that major events do not have to be underwritten by the government like F1 and the Gold Coast Indy.

Rally Australia had been staged in Perth from the late 1980s until last year however it is believed the event cost the WA government between $8-$10million a year to underwrite.

It is understood the Queensland Government will not be burdened with a cost to have the world rally championship which has sealed a multi-year deal after winning approval from the FIA's world motor sport council last October.

There is a big push for the Australian F1 Grand Prix to be run under lights so it can be televised at a more user friendly time back to Europe and cash in on a greater television audience.

However transforming the Albert Park layout for night racing would require a substantial cost.

The Norwell circuit, which will be built by acclaimed German track designer Hermann Tilke, will be wired with the latest in flood-lighting technology from the beginning.

The company behind the motor city complex says it would welcome any major international events.

But the project has not been designed to rely on big race meetings such as grands prix for its survival.

"We are not about stealing events from people however if the grand prix people want to talk then we would welcome that," said Ron Brown, the managing director for i-METT the company established to undertake the project.

"The way the motor sport complex is being set up it doesn't have to rely on government money or big events for sustainability ... there is much more to it than just motor racing events.

"It is a business park where a lot of things will be going on seven days a week so it's much more than just a motor racing circuit."

Champ Car would be welcome however it is difficult to see the Queensland Government or the North American-based series managers wanting to shift the massively successful open wheeler formula from the streets of Surfers Paradise.

i-METT says the economic benefit of motor sport cannot be ignored.

The company cites a British Government survey that says motor racing in England accounts for $8.2billion a year that makes it that country's fifth largest export earner and which is bigger than the agricultural and steel industries combined.





I'm expecting an eyesore :(
Also, the business park comment doesn't put me with high hopes either. I hope its more akin to Turkey than Shanghai.
Thoughts?



PS Yes Arrows I know you closed a similar thread started by ioan about this but I thought this is worth its own thread.

[Valve Bounce]

I am not so sure this will succeed. I appreciate that Queenslanders have accepted the wheel, but they are still not sure about the internal combustion engine. :p :

Does anyone know where this place Norwell is? I never heard of it.

[Erki]

Oh dear. :(

[ShiftingGears]

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,21500521-5012789,00.html

38 km south of Brisbane, apparently. It's in a field which is presumably flat so thats a step towards your typical Tilke track. Why the F@%$ must he design so many goddamn tracks? Let someone else design some F1 tracks Bernie, who knows, they might be better than Tilkes!

[truefan72]

oh nooooo

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Wasn't this in the news a few weeks ago? I will believe it when I see it.

[Mickey T]

Norwell already has a fairly professional advanced driver training centre, which began as a BMW centre, progressed to Mercedes-Benz and is now Holden (GM's australian operation). it was originally supposed to be a test track for the Paul Morris and BMW race teams, but it was too noisy for its neighbours, who have since been bought out, i understand.

it's owned by mega-bucks Terry Morris, who owns things like Sirromet winery (it's TE Morris, spelt backwards, though french-like, they drop the "t"), Carrara Markets, the Franklin Mint etc, and whose son drives V8 supercars a bit erratically.

Morris is involved in this project (he's also one of Chris Atkinson's financial backers).

The beauty of the Norwell site is that it's midway between Queensland's two major population centres of Brisbane (including Logan City) and the Gold Coast, and is just off an eight-lane freeway.

it's also fairly easy to get to from Brisbane Airport.

i reckon Turkey is one of tilke's better projects and it's an unfortunate state of life that F1 cars are only truly safe on tracks like his, with massive width, big run-off and tarmac safety braking zones in dangerous places. to see Rosberg repeatedly fall off in turkey and run back on was to understand the beauty of this. it allows drivers to push beyond the limits without race-ending (or life-ending) consequences. they just lose a place and pop back on undamaged. it encourages having a go in wacky places.

that said, i'd also like to see somebody else design or update a modern F1 track. Tilke has spent plenty of time in Australia (he's twice driven in the Bathurst 24 hour race).

This little corner of Queensland also hosts about half the V8 Supercar teams, including Stone Brothers and Dick Johnson racing.

i still can't see how they're going to recoup $680 million investment, though. i'm obviously missing something, though Morris doesn't get involved in duds.

[ChrisS]

650 million Australian dollars :eek: thats about 270 million British pounds or 540 million U.S. dollars

Turkey and Bahrain cost about 150 million U.S. dollars each

what are they planning to built and how to they expect to survive especially as they say without big events :confused:

[Jimmy Magnusson]

650 million Australian dollars :eek: thats about 270 million British pounds or 540 million U.S. dollars

Turkey and Bahrain cost about 150 million U.S. dollars each

what are they planning to built and how to they expect to survive especially as they say without big events :confused:

Really, really high entry fees? But as you say, that is a sh!te load of money...

[Valve Bounce]

i still can't see how they're going to recoup $680 million investment, though. i'm obviously missing something, though Morris doesn't get involved in duds.


Me too :confused:

[kalasend]

Really, what's the required skills to design a race track?? Does the designer need to get a certificate from FIA? Or attend a college discipline called "Modern Race Track Architecture"?

[ShiftingGears]

I think that Tilke only has a mechanical engineering degree, which I plan to get at some point. However I'm not sure what other qualifications he would need.

From speculation there will be 7 Tilke tracks on the calendar. With this its a possible 8, and I don't know how long it will be until a new track that isn't designed by Tilke is considered...

Bahrain
Malaysia
Singapore
Turkey
Hockenheim
Fuji
From 2009 There will be Abu Dhabi
From 2010 There will be Korea
And with this new circuit, thats NINE circuits, likely to be on the calendar at once.

Thats a lot of hairpins...

And I don't know about how Queensland is going to pay that off. Sydney is still paying off the Olympics which were 7 years ago.

[Valve Bounce]

I honestly think that people who are willing to subscribe to this 680 million investment are going to lose their pants. I simply cannot see that many millions being forthcoming - this is all going to end in tears.

[Mikeall]

The reason the same company designs all the tracks is that there simply isn't enough track design projects for many companies to exist. I presume that Tilke must have a reputation of designing race tracks to be to the specification, on time and on budget. People that say why doesn't Bernie let other people design tracks don't understand the way things work.

[DBell]

i reckon Turkey is one of tilke's better projects and it's an unfortunate state of life that F1 cars are only truly safe on tracks like his, with massive width, big run-off and tarmac safety braking zones in dangerous places. to see Rosberg repeatedly fall off in turkey and run back on was to understand the beauty of this. it allows drivers to push beyond the limits without race-ending (or life-ending) consequences. they just lose a place and pop back on undamaged. it encourages having a go in wacky places.

Good post Mickey T. I can't believe the safety police haven't jumped all over this part. I can't agree more with you. It use to be paramount for a driver to stay on the tarmac, but now it's like whoops, I'll try to do better on the next lap. I hear they've emasculated the final two fast corners leading on to the main straight in Barcelona. Guess we'll find out soon.

I hope you Aussies end up with a good track, not like the revamped Hockenhiem. Most elaborate go-kart track I've ever seen.

[ChrisS]

Really, what's the required skills to design a race track?? Does the designer need to get a certificate from FIA? Or attend a college discipline called "Modern Race Track Architecture"?

I think anyone is allowed to design a track but the FIA has has specific requirements and procedures to recognize and grade racing circuits


I honestly think that people who are willing to subscribe to this 680 million investment are going to lose their pants. I simply cannot see that many millions being forthcoming - this is all going to end in tears.

Clive Bowen's Apex Circuit Design is the only other one I can think of

[RJL25]

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,21500521-5012789,00.html

38 km south of Brisbane, apparently. It's in a field which is presumably flat so thats a step towards your typical Tilke track. Why the F@%$ must he design so many goddamn tracks? Let someone else design some F1 tracks Bernie, who knows, they might be better than Tilkes!

its not flat, there is a fair amount of elevation changes in the proposed land they are going to use

[ShiftingGears]

Really? Thats pretty cool! Do you live around the area?

[Valve Bounce]

The interest alone on 680 million is something which has to be met by usage. Unless the facillities can be used every day of the year, I cannot see this being a viable project financially.

[ShiftingGears]

Well I can see it being used by V8's as Queensland Raceway is a pretty tacky circuit to be honest. And due to the fact that its a Tilke circuit I can see it also being used by MotoGP. Those are the only relatively major series I can see it pulling.

But wow...I want to know what that much money is going INTO, ignoring the question of where its coming from.

[Valve Bounce]

Well I can see it being used by V8's as Queensland Raceway is a pretty tacky circuit to be honest. And due to the fact that its a Tilke circuit I can see it also being used by MotoGP. Those are the only relatively major series I can see it pulling.

But wow...I want to know what that much money is going INTO, ignoring the question of where its coming from.


Good point. In terms of track construction, access roads, grandstands, pits and other infrastructure, the track shouldn't cost more than a quarter of that amount.

I suppose parts of it could be used for lerner drivers, advanced learner drivers, wannabe racing drivers, kart racing, test tracks among other things, but the income would have to be massive to pay off the 680 million.

[aryan]

Even if this project takes off, Albert Park will still have the race for a couple of years, but after that it's really doubtful.

This year the mainstream media down here (The age, herald sun, etc. ) were very dismissive of the whole F1 thing, and there was so much talk about Victoria hosting so many events that victorians are sick of it. So I wouldn't be surprised to find out that victoria loses the Grand Prix real soon.

[nigelred5]

If Bernie and Tilke have their hands in it, you can bet half of that is probably going straight into their pockets.

I like to refer to a quote by Pete Dye, who designed the Bulle Rock golf course near my home, when asked about his award winning design; "I did not undo God's work". Tilke's tracks look like the work of a bulldozer and a grader and little more. I'll give him credit for the actual architechture at the tracks, but the layouts need way more elevation changes. I think that is the element that, until Turkey has been the greatest complaint I have with Tilke's tracks. The tracks lack any kind of interesting terrain, and in some instances, they ppear to have actually avoided interesting terrain. It may be the fact that they have been built in deserts, re-claimed swamps and such, however the Turkish track is the only one of his creations I can actually look forward to on the schedule.

[AndyRAC]

No, no no, not Tilke please, his circuits are all identikit, he ruined Hockenheim, the rest aren't much better. What's the hold he has over Bernie et al?

[ShiftingGears]

he ruined Hockenheim

Osterreichring too.

[zoostation]

Osterreichring too.

i recently watched a video on board from that track in around 85 i think, with cheever driving.

then i thought of the A1 ring in comparison to it.

made me quite sad really :(

[CCFan]

No, no no, not Tilke please, his circuits are all identikit, he ruined Hockenheim, the rest aren't much better. What's the hold he has over Bernie et al?

I seem to remember reading somewhere that Bernie actually owned some shares of (or was a partner) in Tilke's firm & that was why Tilke was mostly used in building new courses to add to F1's schedule.

[ShiftingGears]

i recently watched a video on board from that track in around 85 i think, with cheever driving.

then i thought of the A1 ring in comparison to it.

made me quite sad really :(


I know :( Fantastic circuit defiled and butched by Tilke. I think he should design a fast flowing circuit like the Osterreichring.

[Valve Bounce]

It's funny, but when I watch F1 on the telly, I don't realise how mundane any circuit is, because all I see are cars approaching corners most of the time.

To make it worse, when the cars are halfway down the track, my TV cannot define the colour, so it simply comes out as sorta grey or white.

[millencolin]

all i can say is good god i hope they build it AND QUICK!!!

As anybody who has been to Willowbank would say, Queensland has nothing when it comes to permanent tracks. (i really hate that craphole caled willowbank)

and the location is fantastic. right between brisbane and the coast... and PUBLIC TRANSPORT ACCESSABLE!!!! Something you cant do at willowbank.

We Queenslanders are dying for a proper racetrack! Indy is our best track, and its only there one weekend a year!!! Lakeside is no longer good for proper racing (unfortuately), Willowbank is absolutely woeful in every sense of the word!!!!! i dont care if its a ****ty tilke track, we need something and we need it NOW!!!!

So bring on this supertrack!

[RJL25]

Really? Thats pretty cool! Do you live around the area?

live about 50 mins away, and have visited norwall a number of times. Its not like the place is mountainess or anything, but it IS anything but flat

[Valve Bounce]

live about 50 mins away, and have visited norwall a number of times. Its not like the place is mountainess or anything, but it IS anything but flat


I used to live 50 mins away from there too. Now I live 8 minutes by bicycle from Albert Park. I was asked tonight if I would visit Brisbae again, and I coun't think of any reason to; the only place I liked there was the bowling club in Oxlade drive - great place to have dinner next to the river. I guess I just love Melbourne.

[RJL25]

I used to live 50 mins away from there too. Now I live 8 minutes by bicycle from Albert Park. I was asked tonight if I would visit Brisbae again, and I coun't think of any reason to; the only place I liked there was the bowling club in Oxlade drive - great place to have dinner next to the river. I guess I just love Melbourne.

good for you, im sure melbourne's fickle whether is fine once you get use to it

south east queensland on the other hand, is a winner, all the way. As evidenced by the fact that thousands and thousands of melbournites are moving to this corner of the world every year

[Valve Bounce]

good for you, im sure melbourne's fickle whether is fine once you get use to it

south east queensland on the other hand, is a winner, all the way. As evidenced by the fact that thousands and thousands of melbournites are moving to this corner of the world every year

We have been praying for fickle for bloody months and months - and we finally have fickle :up: http://mirror.bom.gov.au/products/IDR023.shtml

I understand friends of ours in Brisbane are on their knees praying for fickle right now; their garden is buggered.

I only wish the thousands of melbournites leaving for Qld are there for good - that will put less prssure on the high of houses here. :(

[millencolin]

good for you, im sure melbourne's fickle whether is fine once you get use to it

south east queensland on the other hand, is a winner, all the way. As evidenced by the fact that thousands and thousands of melbournites are moving to this corner of the world every year

that explains the spread of AFL popularity and VB consumption in our part of the world. :p :

[cosmicpanda]

The tracks lack any kind of interesting terrain, and in some instances, they ppear to have actually avoided interesting terrain. It may be the fact that they have been built in deserts, re-claimed swamps and such, however the Turkish track is the only one of his creations I can actually look forward to on the schedule.

James Allen and Martin Brundle were talking in Bahrain about how the site for Bahrain was chosen - apparently it was chosen because it had more elevation changes than the other potential site. When you think about it, you can see some sheer rock faces in some corners, and you can also see that there are some crests in some areas - such as the corner were the two Renaults were overtaken (turn 10) and also turn 13.

Every year at Bahrain we hear about how the chicane at turns 5, 6 and 7 is one of the best in F1. Martin Brundle was saying that this year, and Tiago Monteiro was saying that in a past edition of the F1 racing mag (I think - it may have been a different driver).

You mention swamps. Do you not like the Interlagos track?

And finally, are Tilke's tracks any worse for racing action than Monza, Silverstone or Catalunya in these past few years? (I have high hopes for the new chicane at Catalunya).

[Mikeall]

Tilke were contracted to "butcher" the Oestereischring and the Hockenheimring. Leaving things as they were wasn't an option...

And despite any criticism no one can deny that the new Hockenheim provides some of the best racing in F1 with slipstreaming and side by side racing through multiple corners. The old Hockenheim tended to be a bit one dimensional. And although it might not be that apparent watching it on TV, the paying spectators in the stadium section get to see the cars race past over 50% more times.

[RJL25]

that explains the spread of AFL popularity and VB consumption in our part of the world. :p :

haha well how else can that be explained? i mean really!

[aryan]

good for you, im sure melbourne's fickle whether is fine once you get use to it


This is a big myth. I was warned before coming down here of the infamous "4-seasons in one day" Melbourne weather, and I have to say, to someone who has lived in Yorkshire, Melbourne's weather is abso-fu**ing-loutly fan-fu**ing-tastic :thumb: . It is a balance of sunshine and cool breaze. You have 95% bright sunshine here with the occasional rain which just makes the air so much more pleasant. I think most people actually like a bit of rain from time to time.

It's not like Sheffield where I got depressed of the sound of rain! :s ick:

[Mjfan12]

is this tilke guy the only damn designer in the world? why does he get to design every track?

[Mikeall]

is this tilke guy the only damn designer in the world? why does he get to design every track?

That's kind of the point, there aren't really enough racetracks being built for there to be competing companies, particularly for tracks designed and built with huge budgets. It is effectively a monopoly but if a national or local track was designed and built by another company and found to be amazing in some way there would obviously be a chance of them being contracted for a future F1 venue. However it even then there is a chance that politics in the country or region could prevent that track ever seeing the light of day (Mexico, India, Lebanon etc...)

At the moment the only sensible choice for anyone who wants to have an F1 track is to go with Tilke.