Gravel Traps

[Bezza]

I think the US and Mexican GP's confirmed that we really need to bring gravel traps back into F1.

I am not quite sure on the reason why they were removed in the first place? Was it safety reasons? If so, I don't recall an incident with gravel traps causing a particularly serious accident that tarmac would have avoided. Even then, surely if the safety factor was an issue at certain corners, then the tarmac could be installed here, otherwise - at the second to last and final corners of US and the first corner in Mexico, what is the benefit to racing of tarmac run-off? Surely a gravel trap would be better.

Reasons for:

1) Penalizes the driver after making a mistake, either going off or running wide depending on corner profile
2) Looks spectacular / exciting with gravel dust into the air as the car goes across it
3) Keeps drivers from abusing track limits

Reasons against:

1) Safety - arguably? Certain corners only I would say.
2) Reduces cars in the field - I don't agree, we have regular races of 20-22 finishers now with increased realibility. Drivers making big mistakes should be penalized by a potential DNF absolutely.
3) Longer time to recover cars - we have the VSC now to counter-act that potential hazard.

Thoughts??

[zako85]

Indeed. If the gravel traps were used, this would force the drivers drive far more carefully. If you make a mistake, you end in the kitty litter. Game over. That's the way it used to be in the 1990s and earlier.

[Bagwan]

Gravel is only good for lower speed , where you can get it stuck , but no good for places where getting the edge in makes you flip , as roll hoop assemblies dig nicely into crushed rock .
"Sleeping policemen" work well under those circumstances , because there is no gravel brought onto the track upon re-entry for cars that breach the boundaries . Sometimes they'll launch cars , breaking suspension components , but you never get stuck .

Bezza , I'm with ya .

[Phoenix]

Perhaps, a la Canada, there needs to be a bollard that has to be passed, positioned in such a place once the driver has gone off, that will result in a significant loss of time. The result would mean we can keep safer grass/tarmac run-off, but negate the need for contentious penalty decisions!

[Starter]

I think the US and Mexican GP's confirmed that we really need to bring gravel traps back into F1.

I am not quite sure on the reason why they were removed in the first place? Was it safety reasons? If so, I don't recall an incident with gravel traps causing a particularly serious accident that tarmac would have avoided. Even then, surely if the safety factor was an issue at certain corners, then the tarmac could be installed here, otherwise - at the second to last and final corners of US and the first corner in Mexico, what is the benefit to racing of tarmac run-off? Surely a gravel trap would be better.

Reasons for:

1) Penalizes the driver after making a mistake, either going off or running wide depending on corner profile
2) Looks spectacular / exciting with gravel dust into the air as the car goes across it
3) Keeps drivers from abusing track limits

Reasons against:

1) Safety - arguably? Certain corners only I would say.
2) Reduces cars in the field - I don't agree, we have regular races of 20-22 finishers now with increased realibility. Drivers making big mistakes should be penalized by a potential DNF absolutely.
3) Longer time to recover cars - we have the VSC now to counter-act that potential hazard.

Thoughts??
There are several negative issues with gravel traps. Though it's true that they do penalize a driver who does an "off" and returns to the track. What they also do is compromise safety. The negatives are: 1) Cars entering a trap straight and at speed. do not get slowed down as opposed to pavement (assuming the car has any braking capability). This results in higher impact speeds when they meet the inevitable barrier. 2) Cars going in sideways have a much greater chance of rolling over when the sides of the tires begin to dig in to the gravel. 3) If a car does roll over, there is a better chance of driver injury as the roll bar digs into the pliable gravel possibly allowing contact with the drivers head. 4) In windy conditions clouds of dust can briefly obscure the racing surface creating hazardous conditions for other cars. 5) Use of VSC not withstanding recovery of cars from gravel traps takes longer putting marshals at greater risk during the recovery process. Gravel traps, while once thought a good idea, are now pretty much obsolete much as catch fencing before them is.

[Bezza]

There are several negative issues with gravel traps. Though it's true that they do penalize a driver who does an "off" and returns to the track. What they also do is compromise safety. The negatives are: 1) Cars entering a trap straight and at speed. do not get slowed down as opposed to pavement (assuming the car has any braking capability). This results in higher impact speeds when they meet the inevitable barrier. 2) Cars going in sideways have a much greater chance of rolling over when the sides of the tires begin to dig in to the gravel. 3) If a car does roll over, there is a better chance of driver injury as the roll bar digs into the pliable gravel possibly allowing contact with the drivers head. 4) In windy conditions clouds of dust can briefly obscure the racing surface creating hazardous conditions for other cars. 5) Use of VSC not withstanding recovery of cars from gravel traps takes longer putting marshals at greater risk during the recovery process. Gravel traps, while once thought a good idea, are now pretty much obsolete much as catch fencing before them is.

My counter argument against your points on safety there is that we have F1 now as "too safe" - a number of drivers and Bernie have alluded to this. Going straight at the end of a straight with no braking capacity is incredibly rare. And the accidents you mention like rolling are very spectacular, and very very rarely end in injury. Thats what I mean by too safe. I don't want to see people get hurt, but equally I don't want to see boring races where nothing is at stake. The balance has gone a little bit too far the other way at the moment.

[Starter]

My counter argument against your points on safety there is that we have F1 now as "too safe" - a number of drivers and Bernie have alluded to this. Going straight at the end of a straight with no braking capacity is incredibly rare. And the accidents you mention like rolling are very spectacular, and very very rarely end in injury. Thats what I mean by too safe. I don't want to see people get hurt, but equally I don't want to see boring races where nothing is at stake. The balance has gone a little bit too far the other way at the moment.
Oh I agree on your "too" safe comment. You are preaching to the choir. Auto racing, especially F1, has been sanitized to the point where they may as well leave the drivers in the pits to radio control the cars. I was just commenting about the efficacy of gravel traps.

[Nitrodaze]

I am not a fan of gravel traps. It can be race ending for drivers with cars that could continue to the end of the race. Then there is the damage the gravel pebbles do when they get into the side pod of the car.

That said, l do not like grass either, they are not very effective at slowing down cars that run off the track.

I think concrete with sausage ribs to force drivers to slow down is most effective. This would have prevented Verstapenn or Hamilton from maintaining any advantage they had before running off the track. Think about the wonderful duel that would have ensued with Hamilton trying to pass a slower Rosberg ahead.

[Stan Reid]

Yes, pavement all the way to the safer barriers-works fine with oval track racing. If they go straight in, gravel doesn't slow them much and makes braking worse and, if they slide in, the wheels often dig in and cause the car to do a side-over-side flip.

[inimitablestoo]

One possible compromise that has been suggested (by Karun Chandhok, among others) has been a gravel "strip" not far off the track - not big enough to completely trap a car or flip it over, but just wide enough that you would be delayed going through it (and indeed rejoining the track either through it or by going around it).

A few proper kerbs would help too, to prevent drivers from straying over the lines in the first place. Have a look at some of the beauties that used to be installed at the Hungaroring when it first hosted F1 (and a few other tracks from the same era) - those were proper kerbs.

[Tazio]

I am not a fan of gravel traps. It can be race ending for drivers with cars that could continue to the end of the race. Yeah dawg remember this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOIxQP5PUSM

:angel:

[smsgrafica]

Just lay down a layer of sticky rubber marbles on the runoff area asphalt. It slows you down, it doesn't flip you over, it penalizes you for the next few corners if you rejoin the track.

[Stan Reid]

How about a giant sheet of flypaper?:cool:

[Starter]

How about a giant sheet of flypaper?:cool:
That works for me. :D:D