Howett and why Toyota signed RS and JT

[ioan]

Because he doesn't rate Heidfeld higher than midfield!

"With him, we would not improve," Team President Howett recently told Sport Bild.

Nick's answer:
"I know what I can do.

"I would rather keep driving quickly than try to respond with my mouth."


http://www.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/070427101112.shtml

More about it:
http://www.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/070426111238.shtml

[V12]

Is it too cynical of me to think that maybe the Toyota board said "Let's get Schumacher for 10 million" (or however much it was)...without realising they were getting Ralf? :)

[jens]

To be precise, then actually Howett thinks that Heidfeld is "upper midfield", which might be understood as not as a top driver, but in the group of next drivers.

But Howett is not the only one - Heidfeld has traditionally been not-very-highly rated by team principals. McLaren preferred Räikkönen over Heidfeld. Sauber dropped Heidfeld in order to get Fisichella and Massa. Heidfeld got Williams drive only thanks to beating Pizzonia. It seems that so far only Theissen has been rating Nick really highly, although even about BMW there are rumours that Heidi might not be kept... Oh, and also Eddie Jordan rated Nick highly by not demanding any sponsorship money from him for 2004...

But I'm surprised a bit that Toyota does not attempt to hire for example Bourdais or Rosberg. I would like to see both Jarno and Ralf fighting against new team-mates next year - after a certain time it would be interesting to see some changes in team-mate battles to get more excitement.

[DimitraF1]

they are waiting ralf schumacher to get the informations from michael now because he is retired and they will be in the front next year :P

[Sleeper]

But Howett is not the only one - Heidfeld has traditionally been not-very-highly rated by team principals. McLaren preferred Räikkönen over Heidfeld. Sauber dropped Heidfeld in order to get Fisichella and Massa. Heidfeld got Williams drive only thanks to beating Pizzonia. It seems that so far only Theissen has been rating Nick really highly, although even about BMW there are rumours that Heidi might not be kept... Oh, and also Eddie Jordan rated Nick highly by not demanding any sponsorship money from him for 2004...

I think you've got that wrong their, McLaren rated Heidfeld very highly, its just that Raikkonen is exceptionally quick. I never did understand why Sauber dumped him for Massa, and Williams tryed to get Heidfeld away from Jordan (another team that highly rated him as he was able to drag out better results than the car deserved) mid 04 to sub for Ralf, and were highly impressed with him when he raced for them in 05. BMW were also very impressed and so got him for 07 before Williams could get a him on a long term contract, so they let him go to BM a year early.

It seems he has to work with a team before they recognize just how good he is.

[Valve Bounce]

they are waiting ralf schumacher to get the informations from michael now because he is retired and they will be in the front next year :P


What? like go forward, not backwards? put your right foot on the benzene, left foot on brake, middle foot on clutch? breathe in when accelerating, breathe out when braking?

What on earth can Michael tell his brother (apart from saying he is sorry for trying to run him into a concrete apron) that could help poor Ralfie do better?

[Valve Bounce]

I predict BMW will re-sign Nick with a hefty performance bonus clause for next year.

[pino]

According to Ital media, Toyota have no intention to resign Ralf, if I were them I would replace him with Rosberg.

[ShiftingGears]

Yeah but if I were Rosberg I wouldn't be so keen on jumping from Williams to Toyota.

[Mickey T]

if Nick's a mid-field runner, then he's too good for where Toyota is at right now...

[jens]

Yeah but if I were Rosberg I wouldn't be so keen on jumping from Williams to Toyota.

Why? I don't think Williams has better prospects than Toyota unless they get a factory support in the near future.

[Ian McC]

"I would rather keep driving quickly than try to respond with my mouth."

:up:

Don't think Nick could of said it any better. Certainly wont get to drive any quicker in a Toyota.

[ShiftingGears]

Why? I don't think Williams has better prospects than Toyota unless they get a factory support in the near future.

Yeah that is true, but I think that is all that Williams lacks. Money. Toyota have really got nowhere during their time in F1 with one of the bigger budgets. They haven't shown me that they can win championships, even with resources.

I never did understand why Sauber dumped him for Massa

Probably something to do with a supply of engines from a manufacturer who are managed by the father of Massa's manager.

[Valve Bounce]

Yeah that is true, but I think that is all that Williams lacks. Money. Toyota have really got nowhere during their time in F1 with one of the bigger budgets. They haven't shown me that they can win championships, even with resources.


Let's not get ahead of ourselves here: Toyota hasn't even won a race yet. :rolleyes:

[jso1985]

BMW is in better shape than Toyota and rate Heidfeld higher than nay other team.
so I don't see a reason why Nick should be even thinking about jumping ship to Toyota.
Toyota on the other hand... well appart from Trulli I don't think they have done a wise driver sign-up in 5 years

[Ed]

I was jsut thinking if nick a midfield runner according to toyota boses then what are Ralf Schumacher and Jarno Trulli? two of the most inconsistant drivers ever in Forunla 1?

[Webslinger]

I have just read an article on both RS and JT by Peter Windsor in last months' F1 Racing (I'm still in catch-up mode reading magazines I bought weeks ago).

To cut a long story short, RS is lacking motivation because he is too busy checking his bank accounts, whereas JT is still the best bet to get Toyota nearer the front, providing he gets over his inconsistencies.

RS's contract expires at the end of 2007 - I would be mightily surprised if Toyota renewed it. With an alleged $25 million to RS and an alleged $8 million going to JT, Toyota should sign an "unknown" for 2008, in the sense that Hamilton was an "unknown". With that I mind, and if I was signing the cheques for the Toyota board, someone like Bourdais might well be a suitable replacement. What have Toyota got to lose..?

[Ed]

still can't believe Trulli gets paid that much less then ralf. I rate him higher then ralf

[Valve Bounce]

I have just read an article on both RS and JT by Peter Windsor in last months' F1 Racing (I'm still in catch-up mode reading magazines I bought weeks ago).

To cut a long story short, RS is lacking motivation because he is too busy checking his bank accounts, whereas JT is still the best bet to get Toyota nearer the front, providing he gets over his inconsistencies.

RS's contract expires at the end of 2007 - I would be mightily surprised if Toyota renewed it. With an alleged $25 million to RS and an alleged $8 million going to JT, Toyota should sign an "unknown" for 2008, in the sense that Hamilton was an "unknown". With that I mind, and if I was signing the cheques for the Toyota board, someone like Bourdais might well be a suitable replacement. What have Toyota got to lose..?


Very true: I would suggest two drivers with more motivation, like Bordais and Webber, and that would cost a helluva lot less, and produce a helluva lot more.

By the way, you should take a course in speed reading :p :

[ioan]

still can't believe Trulli gets paid that much less then ralf. I rate him higher then ralf

For 2 seasons in a row Ralf got more points than Jarno. At best Jarno is as good as Ralf, but not better.

[ArrowsFA1]

The difference between the drivers is hardly decisive though. Both have 1 pole position with Toyota, and both have 3 podium finishes. Looking at the balance sheet Jarno is better value for money, but then finance has never really been a factor for Toyota.

If improvement is what the team is looking for then yes, they have taken a step forward with their current driver pairing (or at least they did in 2005 with Gascoyne's help), but with their budget and resources they should be looking to win, not to just improve.

[Garry Walker]

According to Ital media, Toyota have no intention to resign Ralf, if I were them I would replace him with Rosberg.

Ive been told the same, but apparently its a japanese driver they are looking to sign. I still think they should stick with Ralf, instead of bringing in someone with as much talent as alex yoong.


I have just read an article on both RS and JT by Peter Windsor in last months' F1 Racing (I'm still in catch-up mode reading magazines I bought weeks ago).

To cut a long story short, RS is lacking motivation because he is too busy checking his bank accounts, whereas JT is still the best bet to get Toyota nearer the front, providing he gets over his inconsistencies.


peter windsor the expert strikes again. Cant we silence that moron somehow?
Ralf has beaten Trulli fair and square this year already when conditions were equal, enough about this "ralf is only motivated by money" stuff already.



If improvement is what the team is looking for then yes, they have taken a step forward with their current driver pairing (or at least they did in 2005 with Gascoyne's help), but with their budget and resources they should be looking to win, not to just improve.

For that to happen, they need to stop putting guys into leading positions in the team, who have no idea about Formula1 at all. Recently there has a been a slight improvement in that regard.

[Webslinger]

I have to agree with Garry - Some of Peter Windsor's articles in F1 Racing sure are difficult to follow, when he analyses co-efficient turning circles, or some other such stuff. I know some of the the drivers not only do not like it, but they wonder what he is writing about, which is a bit worrying...

I have tried, but after awhile everything glazes over, and I have to go looking for Dom Taylor, the Bish, Rowlinson, or Steve Cooper, who all write enjoyable stuff that resembles understandable plain English.

[Garry Walker]

I have to agree with Garry - Some of Peter Windsor's articles in F1 Racing sure are difficult to follow, when he analyses co-efficient turning circles, or some other such stuff. I know some of the the drivers not only do not like it, but they wonder what he is writing about, which is a bit worrying...

Windsors articles about driving styles are great for comedy reading, I could have 10 year old girls write articles with more sense than the ones he manages, which would also be far more accurate than anything windsor ever will or has written. He likes to imagine himself as some kind of an expert, when in reality he understands f1 less than animals at the zoo.

Rant over :D

[rlenis]

Massa went to Sauber because he had a contract with Ferrari since 2001.

[kalasend]

still can't believe Trulli gets paid that much less then ralf. I rate him higher then ralf

So many say they rate Trulli higher than RS. But RS has so far scored more than Trulli(although not to the extent of justifying the diff in salary). Since when do we stop believing in results?

[ArrowsFA1]

Windsors articles about driving styles are great for comedy reading...
:laugh: He completely loses me with his co-efficient turning circle, but then I know nothing about driving an F1 car. Does he?

[ioan]

:laugh: He completely loses me with his co-efficient turning circle, but then I know nothing about driving an F1 car. Does he?

I suppose it has to do more with physics than with F1 driving techniques, but given that I did never read any of his articles I can't comment more.

[Garry Walker]

:laugh: He completely loses me with his co-efficient turning circle, but then I know nothing about driving an F1 car. Does he?

No, he clearly doesnt. But then again, we all like to pretend we are experts, only he is getting paid for it :D

[Dave B]

Heidfield IS a midfield driver, albeit at the better part of the midfield. He tooled along nicely for a couple of years at Sauber until a young hotshot rookie exloded the myth that the car was sluggish. Faced with proper competiton, Heidfeld responded.

I'd be interested to see if some fresh blood at Toyota would give Ralf or Jarno the kick up the backside which the both seem to need. Neither of them are rubbish drivers by a long shot, but neither do they appear remotely bothered about driving the team forward.

Ditch one of them, and to be honest it doesn't really matter which, then partner the remaining man with a Nico or a Lewis type, and you might actually see something special.

But right now at Toyota it's a case of the bland leading the bland.

[jso1985]

Heidfield IS a midfield driver, albeit at the better part of the midfield. He tooled along nicely for a couple of years at Sauber until a young hotshot rookie exloded the myth that the car was sluggish. Faced with proper competiton, Heidfeld responded.



don't know what you mean, but Heidfeld and Raikkonen debuted at Sauber in the same year

[Dave B]

Think more recently...

[Valve Bounce]

Think more recently...

Good thinking, 99. :up:

[Mikeall]

Am I oversimplifying it but both drivers are currently driving midfield cars to midfield results which is generally what happens in F1. They get paid the money they do because that's how the contract negotiations went. Media speculation about how money affects performance is just speculation because they are not aware of everything that goes on.

Here's my speculation. Toyota want to win the world championship. Why? To cement their place as number 1 car company in the world. Toyota need experienced drivers who have won races. Why? Because the higher management will feel the right men are driving the cars. A rookie may cost $15 million a year less but top management may feel that they would in fact be wasting $200 million developing a car for a lesser driver who has no experience. A bit like employing a young engineer who has only worked in GP2 before as the technical director because his salary demands are lower.

You may feel others could do a better job in the car but it is only a feeling and Toyota are not the kind of company who have got to where they are today based on feelings. Evidence and statistics are important and at the moment they favour the incumbent drivers. However if Massa and Raikkonen or Alonso and Hamilton find their teams not big enough for the both of them, things could change.