Belgian GP - Spa Francochamp 2016

[Nitrodaze]

http://www.natacha-gachnang.ch/files/Circuit-de-Spa-Francorchamps.im1-2226.jpg

So the mid-season holiday is over and F1 heads to Spa Francochamp; the Belgian GP. Depending how you look at the map of the circuit, it either looks like a short handle pick axe or an experimental aircraft, if you look at it upside down. I know , l have tried it :-). Seven kilometers of some of most interesting corners and straights. Spa Francochamp is mostly considered a drivers track. And arguably, one of the best tracks in the world. It is the longest lap on the calendar, hence the grand prix is only 44 laps long.

Micheal Schumacher has won it six times, and remains the most successful driver ever to drive this track. Schumacher debuted his career on this track driving the green 7UP Jordan car in 1991. The last winner of this track is Lewis Hamilton.
https://www.formula1.com/content/fom-website/en/latest/features/2016/8/schumacher-debut-91-jordan-spa-belgium/jcr:content/featureContent/manual_gallery/image2.img.2048.medium.jpg
The weather is looking good for this weekend, with the sunday race likely to be a dry race.
1062
http://www.netweather.tv/index.cgi?action=f1;sess=
Hamilton comes into this weekend with a 19 points lead, with the possibility of serving his engine penalty at this weekend or possibly at Monza, next weekend. Rosberg has a golden opportunity of recovering some lost points.

Mercedes protege Estaban Ocon gets his first taste of F1 as he replaces Rio Haryanto at Manor. We get to see two of Mercedes future hopes duke it out to impress Toto Wolff. Wehrlien has the edge, but Ocon may spring a surprise. One to watch.

[Tazio]

Looks like The Boss is going to take his new PU (and the penalty that comes with it) at this race. It should be fun watching him fight his way forward!

[driveace]

Well it will be boring IF rosberg darts off into the distance ,whilst Hamilton battles his way through the field
But surely the Ferraris or the Red Bulls must be due a win again .
Should be some good overtaking ,and if Hamilton starts at the back his teammate cant take him out at Les Combes

[Nitrodaze]

The Redbull may go very well on this track due to its flowing corners which may suit their great chassis. It would be great to see how the duel between the Redbull drivers shape out this weekend. Force India also have a great opportunity to reel in Williams this weekend. Like Ferrari, Williams seem to be fading backwards of late.

It could also be a great weekend for Mclaren as this track may suite their chassis as well. But expect them to suffer on the up hill sections of the track where horsepower wins out. The Mercedes should be mighty this weekend, but Ferrari may prove a tough contender for the Redbulls at the straights and uphill sections of the track.

The podium may turn out to be a three team affair, with a Mercedes, Redbull and a Ferrari taking each step. But it is most likely to be a Mercedes and two Redbulls.

http://e2.365dm.com/16/07/16-9/20/max-verstappen-daniel-ricciardo-red-bull_3755554.jpg?20160731173902

It may be possible that Hamilton gets up to 5th or sixth to limit the damages of taking an engine penalty.

In terms of the Redbull driver shootout, Verstapenn is very likely to go very well on this track, being the closest thing to a home track for him. Verstapenn did most of his Go Kart racing in Belgium incidentally. I expect him to take the 2nd step of the podium if Rosberg do not mess up his start. Both Redbull drivers can win this race, if the Mercedes dodgy start continues this weekend.

https://www.formula1.com/content/fom-website/en/championship/races/2015/Belgium/jcr:content/par/manual_gallery_0/image2.img.2048.medium.jpg
You know how difficult it is to pass the pesky dutchman.

[Sulland]

The Jordan 191 in 7up livery is one of the best looking racecars ever!

[Mintexmemory]

With best tyre availability and a circuit that will reward the Merc power and where overtaking is a cinch don't be surprised if LH gets second.

[driveace]

Is there ANY point him qualifying ,would it mot be wise of Hamilton to sit out quali and save tyres AND engine/Gearbox use /wear ?

[easy rider]

Ricciardo and Verstappen could maybe offer Nico a challenge at the start of the race, and for Hamilton's sake I hope that they do. Also let's not forget the Scuderia who seem at times go like hell at the start of a race.

[yodasarmpit]

I have a feeling Redbull will do well, and predict Nico will not take full advantage of Lewis starting from the back - he'll fall back early on and fight back to third.

Well one can hope at least.

[Nitrodaze]

Ocon gets a cone start to his debut weekend.

[AL14]

Ok, this is maybe a stupid question but... Why Hamilton is changing Power Unit and taking the penalty while other drivers are not doing it?
I'm completely ignorant. How does this PU changing works?

[EightGear]

You get 4 to use freely during the season, Hamilton has now used more than that.

[AL14]

You get 4 to use freely during the season, Hamilton has now used more than that.

Ok, thank you, but why? lol he has the best machinery, why change it so often?

[EightGear]

Ok, thank you, but why? lol he has the best machinery, why change it so often?
Because it breaks. :D

[Stan Reid]

Is there ANY point him qualifying ,would it mot be wise of Hamilton to sit out quali and save tyres AND engine/Gearbox use /wear ?

I don't see it unless he wants to use it as a practice session. It's not qualifying anyway, it's positioning and in his case the position will be the same.

[Bagwan]

There was a suggestion from a viewer during the broadcast that Lewis should commit a minor offence so that he might take the grid penalty involved with it being his third , for this race , thus clearing his slate for the rest of the season .
That would be an interesting gambit .

[Rollo]

You know how difficult it is to pass the pesky dutchman.

On the left hand side?

[Nitrodaze]

Can any team match the fastest pitstop time archieved by the Williams pitcrew in Germany? That was 2 seconds flat. About the time it takes to blink twice.

[AndyL]

There was a suggestion from a viewer during the broadcast that Lewis should commit a minor offence so that he might take the grid penalty involved with it being his third , for this race , thus clearing his slate for the rest of the season .
That would be an interesting gambit .

Interesting idea :) Surely the stewards would be wise to it though, and would inflict some other punishment instead of the convenient reprimand.

[AndyL]

With all the new engine components Lewis has taken to give himself a 55-place grid penalty here, he should have ample engines for the rest of the season now. But Mercedes still have tokens to spend, so I wonder what will happen if they introduce another engine upgrade. Either Lewis would have to take another penalty, or only Nico would get it.

[Bagwan]

Interesting idea :) Surely the stewards would be wise to it though, and would inflict some other punishment instead of the convenient reprimand.

There's not much point in his even showing up for qualifying , given his penalties , but a single lap within the 107% will do to go racing .
Simply getting in someone's way on his cool down lap should do , and be very hard to prove a deliberate scam .

But then , isn't taking two engines , deliberately getting more penalty at one race because you can't be put back more positions than there are cars in the race , itself , a bit of a scam ?

It's not really that much different , is it , as long as it's done safely ?

[gm99]

Wow, Wehrlein in the top ten after Q1. Impressive!

[truefan72]

Wow, Wehrlein in the top ten after Q1. Impressive!

0he is the real deal.
and good to see the Manor improving steadily too.
in fact the renault looks improved as well

[Tazio]

https://s11.postimg.io/4uqk68wkj/accuw.png

A little rain could be in the cards to spice things up :D

[Jag_Warrior]

With all the new engine components Lewis has taken to give himself a 55-place grid penalty here, he should have ample engines for the rest of the season now. But Mercedes still have tokens to spend, so I wonder what will happen if they introduce another engine upgrade. Either Lewis would have to take another penalty, or only Nico would get it.

I think you're right, in that only Nico could (freely) get the upgraded power unit or component. But Hamilton mentioned in a post qualifying interview that he now has such a nice supply of power units that he can run them at full bore throughout the race. Typically, they turn them down and try to save something for the next race. Rosberg is now on his fourth engine, is that correct? So he has a normal supply and (if that's correct), it seems that he'll still have to manage his - even if he gets an upgraded power unit or component along the way.

So I guess the question is, will a "managed" power unit be that much better than the previous version being run at full song? I'm guessing that we're going to find out. Personally, I think this is rather exciting! :bounce:

[Nitrodaze]

Verstapenn will start the race with supersoft tyres which is good for 3 laps at best. Ahead of the two Ferraris on soft yellow walled tyres. It looks like Verstapenn would drift out of the podium positions when he comes into the pit to change to soft tyres. Which would elevate the two Ferraris into the last two podium positions.

Ricciado do not seem to be going well so far. The tyres do not seem to be working for him. Hence, with all things being equal and trouble free, the podium may be one Mercedes and two Ferraris. But F1 races always have unexpected factors happen to mixup the state of affairs. Hence the way it would be is the way it turns out to be, come race day tomorrow.

Aloft Gutiérrez finally got penalized for his obstruction of other drivers. Wehrlien shows Ocon how it is done. If you have any doubt about how good Wehrlien is, his drive in Q1 and Q2 would certainly show that he is something special. I think Wehrlien is ready to step into a serious drive. For instance, it would be great for a team like Williams looking to bring in new drivers from the lower formular, to slip them into Wehrlien's seat and offer Wehrlien a Williams drive for 2017. I think he would not disappoint.

Brundle floated an interesting concept for engine penalty that l thought was brilliant. Why punish a driver for what was a teams failing when the driver has been duly punished for the occurrence of the failing. The idea being that, teams should be stripped of constructor points when they take more engine unit or parts than they are allowed to. This way, the driver do not get to suffer twice for something outside their control. Which effectively is what is happening to Hamilton and Alonso this weekend.

The Mclaren is looking faster than usual this weekend. I hope that translate to race pace as well. The Force India is also looking very good this weekend. They seem likely to get into the mix for positions immediately outside the podium positions. It could be an interesting race, the way things are shaping out.

[gm99]

Verstappen destroying his and the Ferraris' race in the first corner... Good news for Hamilton.

[Tazio]

Massive carnage!

[Tazio]

This is a freakin' demolition derby, Fred still ahead of The Boss!

[gm99]

A big one for Magnussen in Eau Rouge. He's massively lucky to walk away from that...

[yodasarmpit]

Verstappen destroying his and the Ferraris' race in the first corner... Good news for Hamilton.

I don't think anyone could blame Max for that one, there was enough space and he was far enough alongside Kimi to be seen (importantly he was fully under control) - unfortunately Seb turned in just a little too much on Kimi. First corner racing incident, but certainly not Max's fault.

[Tazio]

Red Flag. This puts The Boss in the pound seats.

[Tazio]

I don't think anyone could blame Max for that one, there was enough space and he was far enough alongside Kimi to be seen (importantly he was fuly under control) - unfortunately Seb turned in just a little too much on Kimi. First corner racing incident, but certainly not Max's fault.Yep, that was Sebs fault if anyone!

[veeten]

Tyre strategy is the key for this race, as of now.

[truefan72]

this red flag really sucks for hulkenberg. he was in prime position with his clever pitstop. at least he only loses 1 place. but his strategy is shot to bits. Alonso and hamilton have both done well to survive the carnage and after 10 laps be in p4 and p5.

I think the turn 1 incident between vestappen, kimi and vettel was the definition of a racing incident. i think vettel takes a bit more of the blame. he had more room to his left but still turned in a bit too much into kimi. In fact i will amend my anaylsis and say it was probably 85% vettels fault. and 15% vestappen. Kimi was the poor victim of that mess

Magnussen is a lucky man and thanks to the supreme cockpit safety features.

time for a quick snack and then back to part 2 of this fascinating race

[Tazio]

Wehrlein early donkey candidate!

[veeten]

Wehrly?... yeah, he did take out Button and messed his race.

Back on track, now...

[gm99]

Was that Kimi's fault as well?

[yodasarmpit]

Was that Kimi's fault as well?
Max to blame this time, for sure. Way too late on the move.

[veeten]

...and it sounds like Kimi's had enough of him, to say the least.

[gm99]

I wonder if Verstappen isn't really Michael Schumacher's illegitimate son - a great driver, but without any respect whatsoever for other drivers. I can't believe he's not getting a penalty for those two incidents with Kimi.

[truefan72]

and once again the pit crew fails hamilton.
alwayus the same shaite

[veeten]

Alo v Hulk, wonderful manners... :p

[N4D13]

I'm really annoyed at how this race turned out. That safety car + red flag BS basically destroyed most drivers' tire strategies and it gave Alonso and Hamilton a massively unfair advantage. I was quite surprised that the red flag wasn't shown automatically since to me it was pretty obvious that the barrier needed repairs, so they basically made most drivers pit -and lose positions- while then everyone got a free pitstop. That was a total sham.

On top of that, I'm mad at Verstappen for his dirty driving. One of these days he'll cause a huge accident and only then will the FIA realize that they really need to clamp down on his overly dangerous defending. But of course then they are busier penalizing Nico for a late dive.

[Nitrodaze]

I'm really annoyed at how this race turned out. That safety car + red flag BS basically destroyed most drivers' tire strategies and it gave Alonso and Hamilton a massively unfair advantage. I was quite surprised that the red flag wasn't shown automatically since to me it was pretty obvious that the barrier needed repairs, so they basically made most drivers pit -and lose positions- while then everyone got a free pitstop. That was a total sham.


This is racing, sometimes it works out for some, other times it doesn't. It was unlucky for those that pitted before the yellow flag. For those that pitted during the yellow flag, they have their strategist to blame for that one. It should have been clear to them that a red flag may be imminent.

One thing that is clear, is that no unfair advantage was gained, but some were lucked into where they ended up. Besides they must have driven a great race to capitalize on the opportunity when it presented itself. Alonso, Hamilton and Perez were my drivers of the day.

[steveaki13]

Watched the race delayed. CRAZY CRAZY Start but then became quite predictable. Good race but nothing more.

Sent from my GT-I9301I using Tapatalk

[steveaki13]

I thought Verstappen was very aggressive and was luck not to get a slap on the wrist.

We really need a team v team racing and title battle soon. Hope 2017 can provide it.

Sent from my GT-I9301I using Tapatalk

[Nitrodaze]

I don't think anyone could blame Max for that one, there was enough space and he was far enough alongside Kimi to be seen (importantly he was fully under control) - unfortunately Seb turned in just a little too much on Kimi. First corner racing incident, but certainly not Max's fault.
It was a racing incident, l agree. But the situation sort of shows some of Verstapenn's racing immaturity. Driving into a closing wedge, at the start of a race, is taking a higher risk than usual. When is works out, you are the hero of the day. When it doesn't, it could be costly as Verstapenn has found. That said, l would rather he fought for the position than timidily ending up in an accident which seemed very likely, judging by Vettel's crazy maneuver.

[Starter]

It was a racing incident, l agree. But the situation sort of shows some of Verstapenn's racing immaturity. Driving into a closing wedge, at the start of a race, is taking a higher risk than usual. When is works out, you are the hero of the day. When it doesn't, it could be costly as Verstapenn has found. That said, l would rather he fought for the position than timidily ending up in an accident which seemed very likely, judging by Vettel's crazy maneuver.
You've got a clear picture. There hasn't been a race yet where the checkered flag was shown on the first lap. Better to get through the first lap (first corner in this instance) intact and go for the win then.

[N. Jones]

What a scary accident by Magnussen. I hope he is okay.

[zako85]

Vettel was the donkey of the first turn. While under normal racing conditions he has the right to his racing line, on the first turn of any race that was an extremely optimistic turn-in. Granted, Verstappen's inside dive was also too optimistic, and it is not clear that even without Vettel's help whether there would be no collision between him and Raikkonen. Raikkonen ended up being the meat and the victim in this first turn three car sandwich. As a result, all three cars that were going into the turn end up finishing the race on relatively modest positions. What was supposed to be a very promising race turned out to be a relatively dull affair, with fairly predictable result.

[Mintexmemory]

With best tyre availability and a circuit that will reward the Merc power and where overtaking is a cinch don't be surprised if LH gets second.
Ok not second but pretty damn good - especially as the bet I made was for both Mercs to finish on the podium at 5/2 - 75 quid profit banked made it a very satisfying afternoon. Now to watch the race on catch up tonight!!

[BleAivano]

Isn't it about time that F1 started with accumulated grid penalties (for engine changes and etc) so if a driver do what Merc/Ham did this weekend, they can currently
do allot of changes during one GP, start last in one GP and then all penalties are gone. So each time a driver gets a grid penalty, it should be added to a grid penalty pool.
So if a driver does two engines changes and one gearbox, those penalties should be carried over from one race to another until the driver has cleared all grid penalty points.

I.e. if Hamilton gets 40 grid penalty points, he would clear 23p this weekend but would still have 17points to clear in the next GP, so if he would get PP in the next GP.
he would get moved downed 17 places to 18th and then (unless more changes is made) he would start at the actual qualified position.

[N4D13]

Isn't it about time that F1 started with accumulated grid penalties (for engine changes and etc) so if a driver do what Merc/Ham did this weekend, they can currently
do allot of changes during one GP, start last in one GP and then all penalties are gone. So each time a driver gets a grid penalty, it should be added to a grid penalty pool.
So if a driver does two engines changes and one gearbox, those penalties should be carried over from one race to another until the driver has cleared all grid penalty points.

I.e. if Hamilton gets 40 grid penalty points, he would clear 23p this weekend but would still have 17points to clear in the next GP, so if he would get PP in the next GP.
he would get moved downed 17 places to 18th and then (unless more changes is made) he would start at the actual qualified position.
We already had that (or something quite similar to it), and it was shelved because it was deemed too confusing.

[Tazio]

Ok not second but pretty damn good - especially as the bet I made was for both Mercs to finish on the podium at 5/2 - 75 quid profit banked made it a very satisfying afternoon. Now to watch the race on catch up tonight!!
Well played! :)

[Bagwan]

Vettel was squeezing Kimi , who he thought had beaten Max to the inside .
He wouldn't have seen Max on the other side of Kimi's car , and wouldn't have known he was squeezing both of them .
Kimi is the only one of them that knew where all three were in this situation , but , being ahead , had no obligation to back out .

So , in my eyes , that first corner was a racing incident .

[AL14]

I support Ferrari but I think Verstappen did nothing wrong in the first corner.

[Mia 01]

I want a race ban for Mad Max!!!!

[jens]

I am a Vettel fan, but Turn 1 was his fault. As zako85 put it, extremely optimistic turn-in at a race start. Granted, you may not see everyone in your mirrors, but if you are not sure you have cleared everybody behind you, it is wiser to leave some room.

Milder blame on "Mad Max", who was pretty likely to hit Räikkönen in T1 even if Vettel had not existed there.

Other than that...Needless to say, I have been a great admirer of Verstappen Jr as well, but his racing is... too much on the limit. I appreciate that he has found a way around regulations and defends in a way which is hard to penalize. From that point of view he reminds me the greats of Senna and Schumacher, who were on the ultimate limit as well. But on the flipside as Kimi put it, it is only a matter of time before Max has a major crash with this driving. In Hungary I thought Max' defense against Kimi was awesome, but this time in Belgium it was too much...

Shame 'The Hulk' is never able to get onto the podium... Even on good days the podium somehow eludes him.

[easy rider]

I support Ferrari but I think Verstappen did nothing wrong in the first corner.

You surely couldn't say that about Max's actions on the Kemmel straight, defending against Raikkonen. It was an extremely hair brained, and dangerous moved on his part.

[henners88]

I haven't seen the race as I generally read about them these days, but what a great drive by Hamilton. Luck went his way today and he must be leaving Belgium with a huge smile.

[jas123f1]

I am a Vettel fan, but Turn 1 was his fault. As zako85 put it, extremely optimistic turn-in at a race start. Granted, you may not see everyone in your mirrors, but if you are not sure you have cleared everybody behind you, it is wiser to leave some room.

Milder blame on "Mad Max", who was pretty likely to hit Räikkönen in T1 even if Vettel had not existed there.

Other than that...Needless to say, I have been a great admirer of Verstappen Jr as well, but his racing is... too much on the limit. I appreciate that he has found a way around regulations and defends in a way which is hard to penalize. From that point of view he reminds me the greats of Senna and Schumacher, who were on the ultimate limit as well. But on the flipside as Kimi put it, it is only a matter of time before Max has a major crash with this driving. In Hungary I thought Max' defense against Kimi was awesome, but this time in Belgium it was too much...

Shame 'The Hulk' is never able to get onto the podium... Even on good days the podium somehow eludes him.
---

I think that Verstappen is a good racer, but still too immature - this time it destroyed even his own race .. when he vas too eager in the start ..

[The Black Knight]

I haven't seen the race as I generally read about them these days, but what a great drive by Hamilton. Luck went his way today and he must be leaving Belgium with a huge smile.

Honestly there was nothing spectacular about anything Hamilton did today. He just kept out of trouble. He picked the right race to start from the back of the grid. The gods were smiling at him but his general race pace wasn't that great. He was lucky not spectacular.

[truefan72]

Honestly there was nothing spectacular about anything Hamilton did today. He just kept out of trouble. He picked the right race to start from the back of the grid. The gods were smiling at him but his general race pace wasn't that great. He was lucky not spectacular.

there was some skill there too, but i think that even more was at play if his conservative strategists had doen the right move.
1. At the time of the red flag he was on the mediums and keeping pace with the softs. I think he hd 10 laps on those tyres
2. he/they should have bolted on another set of mediums and let him run with them as long as he could since the softs were not lasting long.
3. then with lighter fuel load he would have put on his set of softs for a final 12 lap stint and gotten a legitimate chance to fight for the win.

But at the end of the day I'll take 3rd and minimized damage from his big handicap.
Off to Monza we go

[Rollo]

what a great drive by Hamilton. Luck went his way today

It certainly helps when you have a car which is the best and its been locked in by the rules.

[AL14]

You surely couldn't say that about Max's actions on the Kemmel straight, defending against Raikkonen. It was an extremely hair brained, and dangerous moved on his part.

No I was referring to the first corner not that one.

[The Black Knight]

there was some skill there too, but i think that even more was at play if his conservative strategists had doen the right move.
1. At the time of the red flag he was on the mediums and keeping pace with the softs. I think he hd 10 laps on those tyres
2. he/they should have bolted on another set of mediums and let him run with them as long as he could since the softs were not lasting long.
3. then with lighter fuel load he would have put on his set of softs for a final 12 lap stint and gotten a legitimate chance to fight for the win.

But at the end of the day I'll take 3rd and minimized damage from his big handicap.
Off to Monza we go

Yeah I agree but they had to use two compounds throughout the race anyway. What I didn't understand is why they put the softs on in the second stop as well and then moved onto the medium I think for the end. It was pretty clear from the beginning that the medium was the better race tire. Had they done that maybe second was on the cards. He made an awful hash of the restart though did Hamilton and was lucky not to lose out to Massa.

Not his best race but was okay. The win was, realistically, never on but second was there I think.

[The Black Knight]

Isn't it about time that F1 started with accumulated grid penalties (for engine changes and etc) so if a driver do what Merc/Ham did this weekend, they can currently
do allot of changes during one GP, start last in one GP and then all penalties are gone. So each time a driver gets a grid penalty, it should be added to a grid penalty pool.
So if a driver does two engines changes and one gearbox, those penalties should be carried over from one race to another until the driver has cleared all grid penalty points.

I.e. if Hamilton gets 40 grid penalty points, he would clear 23p this weekend but would still have 17points to clear in the next GP, so if he would get PP in the next GP.
he would get moved downed 17 places to 18th and then (unless more changes is made) he would start at the actual qualified position.

I think it's just about time they got rid of grid penalties and started docking the team constructor points for having to change engine. So, for example, Hamilton has to change engine so Mercedes lose their constructor points for that race but Hamilton starts from his normal grid slot and keeps any points he scores. It's true that in F1 they win and lose as a team but since their is a drivers championship there's a clear distinction there between both driver and team, therefore, they should have a distinction in rules, especially ones that so drastically impact a drivers season. I doubt many people would complain about Mercedes losing some constructors points with the huge margin they have but for Hamilton it's unfair to have done nothing wrong and be getting those penalties.

I think a constructor points impact would be enough of a deterrent from the teams perspective to ensure they won't go changing engines at every race as there would be no points gain in it for them. I always believe, and still do believe, that this is the simplest solution and alternative to the ridiculous grid penalties system.

[Starter]

I think it's just about time they got rid of grid penalties and started docking the team constructor points for having to change engine. So, for example, Hamilton has to change engine so Mercedes lose their constructor points for that race but Hamilton starts from his normal grid slot and keeps any points he scores. It's true that in F1 they win and lose as a team but since their is a drivers championship there's a clear distinction there between both driver and team, therefore, they should have a distinction in rules, especially ones that so drastically impact a drivers season. I doubt many people would complain about Mercedes losing some constructors points with the huge margin they have but for Hamilton it's unfair to have done nothing wrong and be getting those penalties.

I think a constructor points impact would be enough of a deterrent from the teams perspective to ensure they won't go changing engines at every race as there would be no points gain in it for them. I always believe, and still do believe, that this is the simplest solution and alternative to the ridiculous grid penalties system.
Use common sense in the rules? What a strange suggestion.
:D

[Nitrodaze]

Vettel was squeezing Kimi , who he thought had beaten Max to the inside .
He wouldn't have seen Max on the other side of Kimi's car , and wouldn't have known he was squeezing both of them .
Kimi is the only one of them that knew where all three were in this situation , but , being ahead , had no obligation to back out .

So , in my eyes , that first corner was a racing incident .

Baggie, it was a daft racing incident which cost Ferrari dearly. Two podium finishes was on the cards for Ferrari this weekend. I think the Ferrari-Vettel relationship is strained at the mo. He disobeys team instructions and wreaks team chances for points in a hard fight with the surging Redbulls. They clearly need to have a frank chat internally to sort this mess out. They are shooting themselves in the foot at the mo.

[Nitrodaze]

there was some skill there too, but i think that even more was at play if his conservative strategists had doen the right move.
1. At the time of the red flag he was on the mediums and keeping pace with the softs. I think he hd 10 laps on those tyres
2. he/they should have bolted on another set of mediums and let him run with them as long as he could since the softs were not lasting long.
3. then with lighter fuel load he would have put on his set of softs for a final 12 lap stint and gotten a legitimate chance to fight for the win.

But at the end of the day I'll take 3rd and minimized damage from his big handicap.
Off to Monza we go

That was my thought too during the race. Even armchair experts could see that one a mile away. That said, Hamilton drove a head race this weekend. His prime concern was to avoid trouble and pick off one car at a time. It was the smart move and it paid off handsomely. Alonso on the other hand, did not have much to lose and darted up to 12th place before the end of the first lap, with Hamilton back at 15th.

In a race such as this where overtaking is possible and easy for the Merc, Hamilton did the smart race. Choosing his battles carefully. He didn't need to drive at the ragged edge and risk being involved in crashes. This is the sort of approach that Rosberg should have been taking to protect his 43 points lead but didn't and now finds himself behind by nine points.

[Mia 01]

http://imgr1.auto-motor-und-sport.de/Max-Verstappen-Red-Bull-Formel-1-GP-Belgien-Spa-Francorchamps-26-August-2016-articleDetail-64dd6c9a-971259.jpg

Yeah, you know where to put it!

[Nitrodaze]

I saw it coming but hoped it wouldn't happen but it did. Force India has finally replaced Williams in fourth place in the constructors leader board. It was clear Massa was struggling with tyres and holding back Bottas who was doing a great job keeping Kimi behind. If they had released him a lap or two before they did, he may have got past Alonso to give the team a chance to stay ahead of the Force India. That said, Force India had a great weekend. Peres recovery really helped. It was unfortunate that the Hulk missed out on what is an elusive podium for the German.

The Mclaren surprised and delighted this weekend. The pace has really improved, if they can get on top of reliability, they are close to being on the same curve as the front runners. Alonso showed why he is such a darling of the F1 world this weekend.

[henners88]

It certainly helps when you have a car which is the best and its been locked in by the rules.
It sure does, but a great driver in a great car is always a good combination. Schumacher and Vettel would back that up.

[N. Jones]

I still don't understand the Vettel-Raikkonen-Verstappen incident. How Red Bull thinks that wasn't Max's fault when he pulled that GP3 move diving up the inside. It gave Kimi nowhere to go when Seb made one of the strangest sharp turns I have seen. I'm not sure what Seb was trying to do.

[The Black Knight]

I still don't understand the Vettel-Raikkonen-Verstappen incident. How Red Bull thinks that wasn't Max's fault when he pulled that GP3 move diving up the inside. It gave Kimi nowhere to go when Seb made one of the strangest sharp turns I have seen. I'm not sure what Seb was trying to do.

It is was two drivers, Max and Seb, making lapses in judgement at the same piece of track at the same time and the result was the ensuing incident. Raikkonen could have done nothing to avoid it, so it wasn't his fault. Both Max and Vettel equally shoulder the blame.

Vettel with all his experience should have known to leave extra room.

Max took a gamble and it didn't pay off but it could have. He was entitled to make lunge at the time as the gap was there. That's racing.

Both drivers moves were silly, neither paid off but they both could have worked out for both of them had circumstances been different.

It was an unfortunate racing incident imo.

[Bagwan]

Baggie, it was a daft racing incident which cost Ferrari dearly. Two podium finishes was on the cards for Ferrari this weekend. I think the Ferrari-Vettel relationship is strained at the mo. He disobeys team instructions and wreaks team chances for points in a hard fight with the surging Redbulls. They clearly need to have a frank chat internally to sort this mess out. They are shooting themselves in the foot at the mo.

Dazey , all of them had a right to be where they were .
You can't blame Seb , who was ahead , and not seeing Max .
You can't blame Kimi , who was alongside Seb , ready to slot in behind him .
And , you can't blame Max , who had room when entering , until two red cars squeezed in .

I don't think it has anything to do with what has been happening at Ferrari to date , but I do think all and sundry in the red camp are just a wee touch frustrated by how it's been going .

It is going to be interesting over at Red Bull , where mad Max just tossed out a podium , and the smiling Aussie caught it with both hands(and one bare foot) .

[Nitrodaze]

Dazey , all of them had a right to be where they were .
You can't blame Seb , who was ahead , and not seeing Max .
You can't blame Kimi , who was alongside Seb , ready to slot in behind him .
And , you can't blame Max , who had room when entering , until two red cars squeezed in .

I don't think it has anything to do with what has been happening at Ferrari to date , but I do think all and sundry in the red camp are just a wee touch frustrated by how it's been going .

It is going to be interesting over at Red Bull , where mad Max just tossed out a podium , and the smiling Aussie caught it with both hands(and one bare foot) .

I remember after the Mercedes wipeout in Spain, Arrivabene saying, he did not think his drivers would ever do a thing like that. Well, as l said, when the going gets tough, Vettel would do what it takes to be ahead. And a Ferrari wipeout [ok, collision] is very likely between Vettel and Raikonnen.

Baggie, l sort of expected you to see it the way you did. But l have to admit, it was entertaining racing into the first corner.

[Mia 01]

Next time it can be Lewis time, a divebomb or being forced of track.

Then perhaps a race ban?

[Bagwan]

I remember after the Mercedes wipeout in Spain, Arrivabene saying, he did not think his drivers would ever do a thing like that. Well, as l said, when the going gets tough, Vettel would do what it takes to be ahead. And a Ferrari wipeout [ok, collision] is very likely between Vettel and Raikonnen.

Baggie, l sort of expected you to see it the way you did. But l have to admit, it was entertaining racing into the first corner.

This is absolutely nothing like that at all , as I see it .
Seb left well enough room for Kimi's car , and he had no way of knowing Max would be down the inside .
Sure , the reds were racing each other , but don't paint Vettel another colour because of that .

Kimi was hot at Max after the race , not Seb .

Both Kimi and Sebastian are a little whiny about others during the races these days , and that shows the frustration , but not with each other .
They work well together .
The pressure must be huge behind the scenes , without Allison , as any updates would have been his remit , and the smart ones don't give it all up until the last moment in such a competitive atmosphere .

[The Black Knight]

This is absolutely nothing like that at all , as I see it .
Seb left well enough room for Kimi's car , and he had no way of knowing Max would be down the inside .
Sure , the reds were racing each other , but don't paint Vettel another colour because of that .

Kimi was hot at Max after the race , not Seb .

Both Kimi and Sebastian are a little whiny about others during the races these days , and that shows the frustration , but not with each other .
They work well together .
The pressure must be huge behind the scenes , without Allison , as any updates would have been his remit , and the smart ones don't give it all up until the last moment in such a competitive atmosphere .

Seb himself admitted that he could have left more room for Kimi on his right.

[Rollo]

You can't blame Seb , who was ahead , and not seeing Max .

La Source lap 1.... always never turn in. Take as wide a line as possible because 11 times out of 10, there will be accidents.

[N. Jones]

It is was two drivers, Max and Seb, making lapses in judgement at the same piece of track at the same time and the result was the ensuing incident. Raikkonen could have done nothing to avoid it, so it wasn't his fault. Both Max and Vettel equally shoulder the blame.

Vettel with all his experience should have known to leave extra room.

Max took a gamble and it didn't pay off but it could have. He was entitled to make lunge at the time as the gap was there. That's racing.

Both drivers moves were silly, neither paid off but they both could have worked out for both of them had circumstances been different.

It was an unfortunate racing incident imo.

I agree except for one point - Max was four off at La Source. That isn't a racing move, that is exceeding the track limits and illegal.

[Nitrodaze]

This is absolutely nothing like that at all , as I see it .
Seb left well enough room for Kimi's car , and he had no way of knowing Max would be down the inside .
Sure , the reds were racing each other , but don't paint Vettel another colour because of that .

Kimi was hot at Max after the race , not Seb .

Both Kimi and Sebastian are a little whiny about others during the races these days , and that shows the frustration , but not with each other .
They work well together .
The pressure must be huge behind the scenes , without Allison , as any updates would have been his remit , and the smart ones don't give it all up until the last moment in such a competitive atmosphere .

Even Seb was very apologetic about it. He stated in his post race interview that with hindsight he should have left more room for Kimi. He was unnecessarily aggressive in his attempt to claim the racing line, knowing his team mate was on the inside of him. He simply did not think of getting round the chicane safely and then putting on a fight. After watching a replay of that incident a hundred times [ok a few time :-) ], l can see very clearly why Ferrari would be aggrieved with Vettel. He put his interest ahead of the teams interest in that instance.

http://e0.365dm.com/16/08/16-9/20/f1-conclusions-headphones-verstappen-vettel_3774955.jpg?20160829114003 Courtesy of Sky f1

Vettel's turn in was too acute, Kimi had no option but to crash into him. As for Verstapenn, it was simply a redmist move. He had lost position and he was determined to try to get it back. This is where his immaturity compared to his more experienced teammate Ricciado becomes obvious. Knowing how acute the corner is at La Source, more experienced drivers would have kept their head and try to get round the corner unscathed, then tAke the fight to the ferrari on the straight through Eau Rouge and Kemmel.

It was an unfortunate racing incident as Black Knight put it, but with some common sense avoidable.

[easy rider]

I agree except for one point - Max was four off at La Source. That isn't a racing move, that is exceeding the track limits and illegal.
I don't see how in the world, Max could have ever thought that he would have ever been successful, with his move at Ls Source....Well, it may have worked if he was on a Motorcycle.

[Starter]

I agree except for one point - Max was four off at La Source. That isn't a racing move, that is exceeding the track limits and illegal.
Bingo! Give the man a dollar.

[Bagwan]

Even Seb was very apologetic about it. He stated in his post race interview that with hindsight he should have left more room for Kimi. He was unnecessarily aggressive in his attempt to claim the racing line, knowing his team mate was on the inside of him. He simply did not think of getting round the chicane safely and then putting on a fight. After watching a replay of that incident a hundred times [ok a few time :-) ], l can see very clearly why Ferrari would be aggrieved with Vettel. He put his interest ahead of the teams interest in that instance.

http://e0.365dm.com/16/08/16-9/20/f1-conclusions-headphones-verstappen-vettel_3774955.jpg?20160829114003 Courtesy of Sky f1

Vettel's turn in was too acute, Kimi had no option but to crash into him. As for Verstapenn, it was simply a redmist move. He had lost position and he was determined to try to get it back. This is where his immaturity compared to his more experienced teammate Ricciado becomes obvious. Knowing how acute the corner is at La Source, more experienced drivers would have kept their head and try to get round the corner unscathed, then tAke the fight to the ferrari on the straight through Eau Rouge and Kemmel.

It was an unfortunate racing incident as Black Knight put it, but with some common sense avoidable.

You're right that Seb was too tight with Kimi , but if it was only those two into that corner , they both would have made it .
All three were being aggressive .

Take a screen shot from the moments before the incident and you'll see all three of them with a clear track ahead .
What's clear is that they all aimed for a space one car wide at the apex , where everyone wants to be .

[Big Ben]

I find this Verstapen dude very annoying. Everything he does is labeled hard racing or something of the sort, but often he's just a teenager who's judgement is overwhelmed by hormones.

[N. Jones]

All three were being aggressive? Baggie.... Kimi was on the racing line!

[Bagwan]

All three were being aggressive? Baggie.... Kimi was on the racing line!

Kimi knew he had Max on one side , and Vettel on the other .
Did I miss him backing out ?

All three were vying for the best line .
That Kimi was on the normal racing line is relevant only because taking that line opened the door for Max on the inside .

[Bagwan]

I find this Verstapen dude very annoying. Everything he does is labeled hard racing or something of the sort, but often he's just a teenager who's judgement is overwhelmed by hormones.

All of them seem to act like teenagers at some point .

[Starter]

Kimi knew he had Max on one side , and Vettel on the other .
Did I miss him backing out ?

All three were vying for the best line .
That Kimi was on the normal racing line is relevant only because taking that line opened the door for Max on the inside .
If you count "opened the door" as letting Max be four wheels on the wrong side of the apex curbing, then you would be correct. That's not the way most see it.

[Bagwan]

If you count "opened the door" as letting Max be four wheels on the wrong side of the apex curbing, then you would be correct. That's not the way most see it.

It's the way the stewards saw it .
Well , not really , in the needlessly dramatic way in which you stated it .

He saw a space and went for it .

Had Kimi moved in tighter for the entry before Max got there , it would have compromised his fight against Seb on the other side .
Kimi chose more grip and went for the racing line , but you should take particular note that Max didn't lock up on the way in either , even though he approached much tighter , and a little faster .

I never said he was wise to do it , but he had every right to do so .

Didn't we hear some obscure guy say once that if you see a gap and don't go for it , you are not racing ?

[TMorel]

Didn't we hear some obscure guy say once that if you see a gap and don't go for it , you are not racing ?

Wasn't that in response to a slightly boneheaded maneuver ?
One that years later might haunt him slightly ?

I think I agree with you there in how it relates.

[Nitrodaze]

Kimi knew he had Max on one side , and Vettel on the other .
Did I miss him backing out ?

All three were vying for the best line .
That Kimi was on the normal racing line is relevant only because taking that line opened the door for Max on the inside .

There was no door on the inside. Verstappen was clean of the track and trying to get ahead from what was a crazy place to be. I don't understand why you think Kimi should have backed out. Of the lot, he was driving the most legitimate race. He had the racing line and the prime position into the corner until Vettel made his mad turn into his path.

I make allowances for the immaturity of Verstapenn, but Vettel's action was inexcusable. He deprived Ferrari of a potential double podium at a time when that would have done a world of good to the moral of the team. I like Vettel, but he really screwed up Ferrari's Spa weekend.

[Bagwan]

There was no door on the inside. Verstapenn was clean of the track and trying to get ahead from what was a crazy place to be. I don't understand why you think Kimi should have backed out. Of the lot, he was driving the most legitimate race. He had the racing line and the prime position into the corner until Vettel made his mad turn into his path.

I make allowances for the immaturity of Verstapenn, but Vettel's action was inexcusable. He deprived Ferrari of a potential double podium at a time when that would have done a world of good to the moral of the team. I like Vettel, but he really screwed up Ferrari's Spa weekend.

Did I say that I thought Kimi should have backed out ?
My statement was in response to the question of whether Kimi was being aggressive .
He was , just like the other two .

Clear now ?

Three cars don't fit in the space for one , on the racing line .
All three played a part in it .
All three payed for trying to win(or , at least , take second)it in the first corner .

[Bagwan]

Wasn't that in response to a slightly boneheaded maneuver ?
One that years later might haunt him slightly ?

I think I agree with you there in how it relates.

It applies to all three .

[Nitrodaze]

It applies to all three .

Sorry Baggie, you cannot punish the innocent with the guilty. I see it as Vettel and Verstappen's faults.

[henners88]

The first corner at the start of any race is largely down to luck and drivers have little time to hesitate or react. Vettel appeared to be at fault but I'd cut him some slack as Spa is notorious for first corner incidents and he lost out big time from what I saw.

[EightGear]

Sorry Baggie, you cannot punish the innocent with the guilty. I see it as Vettel and Verstapenn's faults.
You might want to start with spelling drivers' names correctly. :)

[Mintexmemory]

Next time it can be Lewis time, a divebomb or being forced of track.

Then perhaps a race ban?

In your warped dreams - for the rest of the season LH will be comfortably ahead of such malarky. Meanwhile Champ's kid is contractually obliged not to take his team mate out again on the first lap!!

[The Black Knight]

I agree except for one point - Max was four off at La Source. That isn't a racing move, that is exceeding the track limits and illegal.

The track limit is the wall. Somehow I don't think that Charlie came to Spa last week and felt he had to clarify for the drivers where the limit is at La Source. It's pretty clear that you go over the limit and you hit a wall. Max didn't hit a wall so I'd say he was okay in that regard.

I find all this talk of track limits embarrassing and it's a little disappointing that a seasoned F1 viewer would even care about them - it's the sort of talk I'd expect from Bagwan. The FIA provide the drivers with the track and it's up to them to find the quickest way around it. The imposition of track limits is just another irritating regulation that F1 doesn't need. There used to never be track limits imposed many years ago and drivers were still able to find their way around the track. This type of over regulation is suffocating the sport to death. And what's worse is that we the public even entertain the idea of a track limits at all never mind at a corner such as La Source.

Anyone remember Austria when it first returned to the calendar back in the early 2000's? Turn one all cars used to completely ignore track limits but they still managed to get around the track okay. Why? Because it's the same for everyone. Don't impose track limits and the best drivers will still find the quickest way around. Obviously this stands within reason because a driver can't completely cut across a chicane but this is the point where common sense prevails. Common sense certainly isn't prevailing in F1 right now with all the track limit speak every race weekend.

[Nitrodaze]

You might want to start with spelling drivers' names correctly. :)

Apologies :-)

I can see you are sensitive to the criticism of your countryman. Verstappen is and will be the most exciting driver on the grid for some time. He gives us lengthy conversations such as this thread. Which suggest how much he is appreciated as a driver. It shows he has arrived at the sharp end as a driver of note. So we would chastise him when he gets it wrong and praise him when he gets it right. All in all, l think he is a great arrival to the frontend of the grid. While Ricciado is feeling the pressure of his arrival, so are other drivers at the frontend. Like Raikonnen, Vettel and Rosberg; these drivers have tasted the frustration of getting pass the pesky dutchman. So take the rough with the smooth, it is all good :-)

[EightGear]

Apologies :-)

I can see you are sensitive to the criticism of your countryman. Verstappen is and will be the most exciting driver on the grid for some time. He gives us lengthy conversations such as this thread. Which suggest how much he is appreciated as a driver. It shows he has arrived at the sharp end as a driver of note. So we would chastise him when he gets it wrong and praise him when he gets it right. All in all, l think he is a great arrival to the frontend of the grid. While Ricciado is feeling the pressure of his arrival, so are other drivers at the frontend. Like Raikonnen, Vettel and Rosberg; these drivers have tasted the frustration of getting pass the pesky dutchman. So take the rough with the smooth, it is all good :-)
I don't mind the criticism, I thought he crossed a line last Sunday as well. Hopefully he learns from it, because he really doesn't need dirty tricks to succeed.

But seeing a name being consistently spelled wrong gets on my nerves after a while, no matter which driver it is or where he's from. Probably its just me, but I couldn't help myself to point it out. :)

[Bagwan]

I find all this talk of track limits embarrassing and it's a little disappointing that a seasoned F1 viewer would even care about them - it's the sort of talk I'd expect from Bagwan.

Did this insult help you make your point , Mr. Knight ?

[Nitrodaze]

What do we think of the Button- Wehrlien crash? Who's fault was it? I originally thought it was Pascal's fault, but when l looked at it again, l don't think he could have done anything else really.