Will Mercedes now use team orders?

[steveaki13]

This is different thread to discuss what happens now for Mercedes. Lets not discuss the collision. We have a thread for that.

Looking forward I am worried that Mercedes will now see no option but to use team orders. Which would rob us of the only spectacle we have had in the past 3 seasons. I mean in 2014, 2015 & 2016 the racing at the sharp end can be very dull. The only action for the title we have is between these two.

The races over those years that have seen wheel to wheel action and lets be honest these incidents have kept F1 just about afloat. If we know have all that taken away we will see little of interest in the season. It will be who gets most poles and better starts wins the title.

So what do you guys think?

Should they use order? Do you think they will? Toto seemed to suggest it. :(

[henners88]

I think if Mercedes use team orders we will see 2 very frustrated racing drivers, one of which if not both who will be leaving the team at the end of the season. This will just breed resentment between the team and its drivers and I hope it doesn't happen.

[Zico]

In terms of the manufacturers championship do they have to? They still have a substantial advantage on most types of circuits so I don't think so.

I guess it depends on who gets to make the final decision, those above Toto and Nikki might feel that a fairly contested intense championship battle between both team mates with no team orders might contain more marketing value than a staged/ordered results total with a huge points haul.. as long as they (Merc) win the championship regardless.


Fingers crossed, Lewis and Nico's battle for the WDC is about the only going that keeps me watching F1.

[Big Ben]

Maybe it's not just about the points. The two colliding with every opportunity is an embarrassment for the team :rolleyes:

[Jag_Warrior]

Just judging by Toto's post race comments, I think that it's VERY likely. My guess is, Lauda will want to let them continue battling, but with greater team penalties if they do bad things. I'm not sure who will win, assuming Lauda puts up a fight. Plus, Hamilton will likely have a power unit grid penalty or two before the season is over with. So being unable to race for the lead will likely hurt him the most - at least in a couple of races.

[The Black Knight]

Just judging by Toto's post race comments, I think that it's VERY likely. My guess is, Lauda will want to let them continue battling, but with greater team penalties if they do bad things. I'm not sure who will win, assuming Lauda puts up a fight. Plus, Hamilton will likely have a power unit grid penalty or two before the season is over with. So being unable to race for the lead will likely hurt him the most - at least in a couple of races.

Lets remember that imposing team orders and a driver obeying them are two different things. I don't see that Hamilton has done anything wrong therefore I don't think he should be subject to team penalties. Rosberg probably should be now though as it's twice this year he has messed up.

I don't think Mercedes will impose team orders anyway. I think they are smart and bright enough to realize that they can't have it all their own way. You can't just be winning everything and then not expect this stuff to happen from time to time. It will and they need to deal with it and move on. They had 29 races without a collision. They had a bad run in the last couple of races but, on the overall, it's gone seamlessly well for them. The threat of team orders might be on the cards but, realistically, I doubt actual team orders truly are... yet!

[Mia 01]

For once, will Lewis obey?

[N. Jones]

I agree with The Black Knight. Implementing team orders and having the drivers follow them are two different things. If one of them does not obey, how would Mercedes punish him?

[Zico]

I agree with The Black Knight. Implementing team orders and having the drivers follow them are two different things. If one of them does not obey, how would Mercedes punish him?


Sack him or swap him with Wehrlein?

[Duncan]

I think if Mercedes use team orders we will see 2 very frustrated racing drivers, one of which if not both who will be leaving the team at the end of the season. This will just breed resentment between the team and its drivers and I hope it doesn't happen.

Interesting thought. IIRC Toto stated that this will not influence contract negotiations with Nico, but how could it not? At some point, the situation with these two drivers becomes untenable, and you have to fix it. Lewis is already under contract, but Nico is not. If I'm Mercedes, that's how you fix the problem.

Possible paths for Mercedes at this point:

1. Re-sign Nico, hope that Lewis and Nico sort themselves out. Best of luck...

2. Don't re-sign Nico, replace him with Pascal. Pros: keeps young blood in the team, Pascal looks like an exciting and competent young driver, counterbalance excitement at Red Bull with Max. Also, he's German. Cons: frying pan, fire. etc. Pascal seems smart and mature, but he's ambitious. Depending on how things work out, you could still have fireworks.

3. Don't re-sign Nico, replace him with Rio Haryanto. Probably won't reduce the number of crashes, but at least they won't be crashing into each other.

4. Release Lewis from his contract, possibly in negotiation with another major team, replace him with...? Pascal, as above, gives you an all-German team. Maybe that has some value, but doesn't necessarily solve your problem, same as above.

I dunno, but option 2 looks the best available to me.

[Nitrodaze]

The dodgy strategy that Mercedes put out to Hamilton at Austria really gives me cause for concern if they introduce team orders. I think Mercedes has lost some credibility at this race. I doubt they are genuinely being equivalent in their support for both of their drivers. there is mounting suggestions that Mercedes is seeking to engineer a WDC for Rosberg. Baku seemed suspect when Hamilton got the car just right and was quickest in all practise sessions then had a clearly dodgy car during the qualifying sessions and the race.

The strategy at Austria had all the hallmarks of Monaco 2014. I wasn't convinced that was an error and Austria confirms it to me that it wasn't.

Team order would give Mercedes the unfettered opportunity to more effectively achieve the outcome they are after. Ok, you may argue that they pay the driver's so it is up to them to decide which driver to support. I don't have a problem with that argument. But just do it openly. Trying to play on the intelligence of the fans, press and the wider F1 community is just insulting.

We would have a situation where a team would have used a three time world champion as a number two driver. You can read whatever you like into that one. But Rosberg would not be a credible world champion in this circumstances. He would certainly not hold a candle to his father who did it in an era that was incredibly dangerous and on his own effort against some of the finest drivers of his time. I doubt he would have much respect from other world champions on the grid either.

Nico need to beat Lewis fair and square to be a credible world champion. With the margin he has at the moment and some clever calculating driving, recognizing his strength and weaknesses and maximizing his strenghts would win him the WDC on his own effort. That would make him a very memorable world champion and the first driver to beat Hamilton in championship fight in the same machinery. Anything short of that would only be a mockery of the F1 driver championship. And us the fans would recognize it for what it is.

[henners88]

Interesting thought. IIRC Toto stated that this will not influence contract negotiations with Nico, but how could it not? At some point, the situation with these two drivers becomes untenable, and you have to fix it. Lewis is already under contract, but Nico is not. If I'm Mercedes, that's how you fix the problem.

Possible paths for Mercedes at this point:

1. Re-sign Nico, hope that Lewis and Nico sort themselves out. Best of luck...

2. Don't re-sign Nico, replace him with Pascal. Pros: keeps young blood in the team, Pascal looks like an exciting and competent young driver, counterbalance excitement at Red Bull with Max. Also, he's German. Cons: frying pan, fire. etc. Pascal seems smart and mature, but he's ambitious. Depending on how things work out, you could still have fireworks.

3. Don't re-sign Nico, replace him with Rio Haryanto. Probably won't reduce the number of crashes, but at least they won't be crashing into each other.

4. Release Lewis from his contract, possibly in negotiation with another major team, replace him with...? Pascal, as above, gives you an all-German team. Maybe that has some value, but doesn't necessarily solve your problem, same as above.

I dunno, but option 2 looks the best available to me.
Great thoughts. I think Mercedes will be looking at whether these two can continue together past the end of this season. As you say Nico is out of contract so that is the cheapest outcome. Buying out Hamilton's contract would cost a pretty penny. Lewis is also a huge pull for their marketing due to his appeal in Asia, Europe and the US. I personally think he's a self absorbed son of a gun in his private life, but he gets a lot of attention and appeals to the younger cool consumer. Nico is just a normal guy without the wow factor. I think these sorts of details matter when picking a driver to front your marques race team.

Lewis has also given Mercedes 2 drivers championships and all three of his world titles have been won with Mercedes power. He's given a lot back.

I really do think we'll see Lewis with a younger teammate next season. :)

[Nitrodaze]

Interesting thought. IIRC Toto stated that this will not influence contract negotiations with Nico, but how could it not? At some point, the situation with these two drivers becomes untenable, and you have to fix it. Lewis is already under contract, but Nico is not. If I'm Mercedes, that's how you fix the problem.

Possible paths for Mercedes at this point:

1. Re-sign Nico, hope that Lewis and Nico sort themselves out. Best of luck...

2. Don't re-sign Nico, replace him with Pascal. Pros: keeps young blood in the team, Pascal looks like an exciting and competent young driver, counterbalance excitement at Red Bull with Max. Also, he's German. Cons: frying pan, fire. etc. Pascal seems smart and mature, but he's ambitious. Depending on how things work out, you could still have fireworks.

3. Don't re-sign Nico, replace him with Rio Haryanto. Probably won't reduce the number of crashes, but at least they won't be crashing into each other.

4. Release Lewis from his contract, possibly in negotiation with another major team, replace him with...? Pascal, as above, gives you an all-German team. Maybe that has some value, but doesn't necessarily solve your problem, same as above.

I dunno, but option 2 looks the best available to me.

There is the other option of having a clear number one and number two driver line up. Rosberg has messed up right in the middle of contract negotiations, he is now very much on the back foot. He may well end up a number two driver if he wants to stay with the team.

[Nitrodaze]

Great thoughts. I think Mercedes will be looking at whether these two can continue together past the end of this season. As you say Nico is out of contract so that is the cheapest outcome. Buying out Hamilton's contract would cost a pretty penny. Lewis is also a huge pull for their marketing due to his appeal in Asia, Europe and the US. I personally think he's a self absorbed son of a gun in his private life, but he gets a lot of attention and appeals to the younger cool consumer. Nico is just a normal guy without the wow factor. I think these sorts of details matter when picking a driver to front your marques race team.

Lewis has also given Mercedes 2 drivers championships and all three of his world titles have been won with Mercedes power. He's given a lot back.

I really do think we'll see Lewis with a younger teammate next season. :)

I think Mercedes knows that with Hamilton in their car, they can take on whatever the opposition throw at them in 2017 onwards. He is a fighter and a winner. And the most likely option to guarantee a continued success in their future campaign.

Tbh, Rosberg is not that robust under acute competition. Based on what we have seen this season, l doubt he can be reliable to put up a robust resistance in a dog fight against Vettel, Ricciado or Verstapenn if they have a competitive car in 2017. Each of these guys are vicious predators. They attack and overtake just as hard as Hamilton does. And they defend just as aggressively as Hamilton; as Rosberg discovered from Verstapenn in recent times.

[gm99]

We would have a situation where a team would have used a three time world champion as a number two driver. You can read whatever you like into that one. But Rosberg would not be a credible world champion in this circumstances. He would certainly not hold a candle to his father who did it in an era that was incredibly dangerous and on his own effort against some of the finest drivers of his time.

Nico has won as many races this year alone as his father has in his entire career. Keke is the only driver ever in the history of the sport to only score one victory in his championship winning year, and he only became world champion because his main rivals (Villeneuve & Pironi) managed to kill or gravely injure themselves.

[Bagwan]

Nico has won as many races this year alone as his father has in his entire career. Keke is the only driver ever in the history of the sport to only score one victory in his championship winning year, and he only became world champion because his main rivals (Villeneuve & Pironi) managed to kill or gravely injure themselves.

Yeah , but that doesn't fit with the "Nico is useless" story nearly as well , so let's just leave out the facts can we , please ?

[henners88]

Yeah , but that doesn't fit with the "Nico is useless" story nearly as well , so let's just leave out the facts can we , please ?
Nico isn't useless, nobody has said that. He's just not in the top tier of current drivers and this shows when he rams others off track when he cracks under pressure :p

[steveaki13]

I think Nico Rosberg is in the top club at the moment personally.

He may not be the very best but 3rd or 4th best right now. Thats pretty good. However he would be maybe 2nd if he cut out these moments. Just why Hamilton would be ranked higher by me if he didnt have the ability to mess up promising situations sometimes too.

I think using team orders would be a massive error right now. If the were on the verge of losing the titles then fair enough.

[steveaki13]

For anyone interested as of right now I rank the top drivers thus

1. Hamilton
2. Vettel
3. Alonso
4. Rosberg
5. Verstappen
6. Ricciardo
7. Raikkonen
8. Button

[dj_bytedisaster]

The dodgy strategy that Mercedes put out to Hamilton at Austria really gives me cause for concern if they introduce team orders. I think Mercedes has lost some credibility at this race. I doubt they are genuinely being equivalent in their support for both of their drivers. there is mounting suggestions that Mercedes is seeking to engineer a WDC for Rosberg. Baku seemed suspect when Hamilton got the car just right and was quickest in all practise sessions then had a clearly dodgy car during the qualifying sessions and the race.

The strategy at Austria had all the hallmarks of Monaco 2014. I wasn't convinced that was an error and Austria confirms it to me that it wasn't.

Team order would give Mercedes the unfettered opportunity to more effectively achieve the outcome they are after. Ok, you may argue that they pay the driver's so it is up to them to decide which driver to support. I don't have a problem with that argument. But just do it openly. Trying to play on the intelligence of the fans, press and the wider F1 community is just insulting.

We would have a situation where a team would have used a three time world champion as a number two driver. You can read whatever you like into that one. But Rosberg would not be a credible world champion in this circumstances. He would certainly not hold a candle to his father who did it in an era that was incredibly dangerous and on his own effort against some of the finest drivers of his time. I doubt he would have much respect from other world champions on the grid either.

Nico need to beat Lewis fair and square to be a credible world champion. With the margin he has at the moment and some clever calculating driving, recognizing his strength and weaknesses and maximizing his strenghts would win him the WDC on his own effort. That would make him a very memorable world champion and the first driver to beat Hamilton in championship fight in the same machinery. Anything short of that would only be a mockery of the F1 driver championship. And us the fans would recognize it for what it is.

With all due respect, but that was utter tripe. There were no strategic mistakes by Merc in Austria. They tried a two stopper to get Nico up the field, which sort of worked. Lewis was unlucky due to the botched pitstop and the timing of the safety car. If you are alluding to the differing tyre choices in the last stint, I'll have you know that it was dictated by what tyres had been selected before the weekend. Lewis simply didn#t have any Supersoft sets left whereas Nico had run out of softs.

[Nitrodaze]

With all due respect, but that was utter tripe. There were no strategic mistakes by Merc in Austria. They tried a two stopper to get Nico up the field, which sort of worked. Lewis was unlucky due to the botched pitstop and the timing of the safety car. If you are alluding to the differing tyre choices in the last stint, I'll have you know that it was dictated by what tyres had been selected before the weekend. Lewis simply didn#t have any Supersoft sets left whereas Nico had run out of softs.
I wasn't talking about tyres in thr last stint, as l was aware that Nico would have gone unto the yellow walled tyres as well but he did not have any hence was put on a used supersoft.

Hamilton had 10 laps life more on his soft tyres than Rosberg. I think they could have at least left him out for those laps before bringing him in. But they brought him in one lap before Nico which was not enough opportunity for a realistic under cut, bearing in mind traffic and time to switch on the tyre etc. I remain unconvinced that it was a fair strategy. You need a lap to bring the tyres up to temperature and a second lap to hammer out a fast lap to produce the undercut. We see it all the time during qualifying. The thing looked staged for a Rosberg win, much like Monaco 2014. It looked very similar when you stop for a moment and really think about it.

[Nitrodaze]

Nico has won as many races this year alone as his father has in his entire career. Keke is the only driver ever in the history of the sport to only score one victory in his championship winning year, and he only became world champion because his main rivals (Villeneuve & Pironi) managed to kill or gravely injure themselves.

I would be cautious to undermine drivers, especially champions of Keke Rosbergs era. As you pointed out Villeneuve was killed and Peroni was badly injured if l remember correctly. Keke raced in hardcore days, one lap of that period is equivalent to at least two race weekends in the present era. The mortality rate was simply out of the scale of present day safety parameters.

To become champion under any circumstance in the Keke Rosberg period was nothing short of remarkable. Regardless of how it came about. The Spain incident between Hamilton and Rosberg would easily have been a life ending event in Keke Rosberg's day. So when you compare drivers between these era, you should pause for a moment and give due respect to drivers of that glorious but fatal era.

In my book, even if Nico Rosberg wins the 2016 WDC fair and square, l would not rate him anywhere near Keke Rosberg. Because l am quite sure that he would not make it through that era driving the way he drives at the moment. Actually, l do not think he would make it [alive] through half a season of the Villeneuve and Keke era. Respect buddy, respect.

[driveace]

Team orders is not the way to go ,at this moment.There needs to be some orders given about driving standards .Rosberg was awarded 2 points on his Racing Licence,and a 10 second time penalty ,whilst Hamilton had NO restrictions ,so according to the stewards who see far more that any of us by watching many screens ,saw this situation far better than all the armchair critics .Unless Rosberg starts to understand that his actions may kill another driver,or even spectators by his dangerous actions ,nothing will change.Hamilton may gallivant off to the USA every week to chill with his friends ,but he don't wreck his hotel rooms ,and can still come back and qualify half a second faster than his team mate.Maybe they should no longer be team mates as of next year ,maybe Vettel and Hamilton would make better team mates if not at Mercedes then at Ferrari

[Bagwan]

... he don't wreck his hotel rooms ...

Maybe not his hotel rooms , but his private prep room in Baku apparently took quite a beating after he crashed out of qualifying , according to Lauda .

[Nitrodaze]

Nico isn't useless, nobody has said that. He's just not in the top tier of current drivers and this shows when he rams others off track when he cracks under pressure :p

Quite right. I would not call Nico useless, he is a top drawer driver. Over the last three years, he has pushed Hamilton really hard. And it is clear that he would have won the drivers title, if Hamilton was not in the team. That said, you have the beat the best drivers on the grid to be a credible world champion. With Mercedes having such a dominant car, that means beating a great driver in the other Mercedes.

I think if Rosberg is going to win a world title, 2016 is the year that he is most likely to do it. He may have squandered away a number of valuable points unnecessarily, but he still has 11 points. He needs to keep his head down and choose his battles carefully in the future to ensure he hangs on to as many of these points as he can. The odds are in his favor with Hamilton having potential engine related penalties to serve.

He is competing with a three time world champion. One of the very best drivers in a F1 car at the moment. It is not going to be a walk in the park winning the 2016 title; even with Mercedes help. And he cannot go toe to toe with Hamilton who is one of the toughest racers on the grid. Much to Ricciado's discovery at Monaco.

[gm99]

I would be cautious to undermine drivers, especially champions of Keke Rosbergs era. As you pointed out Villeneuve was killed and Peroni was badly injured if l remember correctly. Keke raced in hardcore days, one lap of that period is equivalent to at least two race weekends in the present era. The mortality rate was simply out of the scale of present day safety parameters.

To become champion under any circumstance in the Keke Rosberg period was nothing short of remarkable. Regardless of how it came about. The Spain incident between Hamilton and Rosberg would easily have been a life ending event in Keke Rosberg's day. So when you compare drivers between these era, you should pause for a moment and give due respect to drivers of that glorious but fatal era.

In my book, even if Nico Rosberg wins the 2016 WDC fair and square, l would not rate him anywhere near Keke Rosberg. Because l am quite sure that he would not make it through that era driving the way he drives at the moment. Actually, l do not think he would make it [alive] through half a season of the Villeneuve and Keke era. Respect buddy, respect.

Actually, the 1980s where Keke did most of his driving was not a particularly fatal era of F1 (1982, the year he won his WC, was the last year a driver died on a race week-end until Imola 1994). And from what I remember, there were way more collisions between drivers than there are now (especially as drivers would hardly ever be punished for them, unlike today); apart from the misunderstanding between Mass and Villeneuve in Zolder, none resulted in a driver fatility. All other deaths of that era were from single car accidents (of which I feel Hamilton has had more than Nico Rosberg over the course of their career).

Keke no doubt was a good driver, especially over one lap, but he was not top of the class of his era - that were Piquet, Prost, Lauda, Villeneuve, Pironi (who in spite of having done five GPs less than Keke in 1982 still only finished five points behind him in the final standings), later the emerging Senna & Mansell.

[Nitrodaze]

Maybe not his hotel rooms , but his private prep room in Baku apparently took quite a beating after he crashed out of qualifying , according to Lauda .

I like Niki Lauda for his frank and unadulterated statements. He tells it like it is. But l am not sure why he released that fact to the press. That said, it reveals more about the state of affairs at Mercedes. We get to see the human side of this hard fought competition within the Mercedes camp.

We get to see through a small parting of the curtain of how incredibly hard Hamilton is feeling the impart of his engine related problems. The road back seem very steep and the competition is more robust this year than in any other year. All credit to the man, he keeps it together inspite of all his woes and tribulations. A true example of dignity and worthy champion.

[Bagwan]

I like Niki Lauda for his frank and unadulterated statements. He tells it like it is. But l am not sure why he released that fact to the press. That said, it reveals more about the state of affairs at Mercedes. We get to see the human side of this hard fought competition within the Mercedes camp.

We get to see through a small parting of the curtain of how incredibly hard Hamilton is feeling the impart of his engine related problems. The road back seem very steep and the competition is more robust this year than in any other year. All credit to the man, he keeps it together inspite of all his woes and tribulations. A true example of dignity and worthy champion.

And , all credit to you , my man , for being such a superfan that you can read what was seen as being childish and petulant behavior from both Lauda , and Marko , as dignified .

[Mekola]

I think F1 organizers will persuade Mercedes GP to do not so... For the benefit of the show.

[Zico]

I think F1 organizers will persuade Mercedes GP to do not so... For the benefit of the show.


You think Merc would buy into it for that reason? I don't think Bernie would be able to dissuade them from doing whatever they feel they have to do.

[dj_bytedisaster]

And , all credit to you , my man , for being such a superfan that you can read what was seen as being childish and petulant behavior from both Lauda , and Marko , as dignified .

The problem in the Merc camp is that both Lauda and Wolff are royally pissed off, and Nico and Lewis have put them between a rock and a hard place. If they impose team orders they will get flak for making F1 even more boring. If they do nothing, they'll be called out for being without leadership, letting the drivers run roughshod over them. No matter what they decide to do, it will be the wrong decision.

[Bagwan]

Now that they've mentioned that they might have to use team orders , they won't , at least not yet .

That only goes for straight , positional manipulation , though .

I think there will be some new , internal rules struck .
At least , I hope so .

[dj_bytedisaster]

I think they will impose a standing 'hold station' order after the last pitstop.

[zako85]

I guess the team orders worked very well at the Malaysian GP of 2013.

[Starter]

The problem in the Merc camp is that both Lauda and Wolff are royally pissed off, and Nico and Lewis have put them between a rock and a hard place. If they impose team orders they will get flak for making F1 even more boring. If they do nothing, they'll be called out for being without leadership, letting the drivers run roughshod over them. No matter what they decide to do, it will be the wrong decision.
That's true. There is no correct answer for them.

[dj_bytedisaster]

I guess the team orders worked very well at the Malaysian GP of 2013.

Yes, but only because they were given to the one out of two drivers who actually obeys them.

[henners88]

Yes, but only because they were given to the one out of two drivers who actually obeys them.
That was 3 years ago and a lot has changed within the team since then. Hamilton was visibly embarrassed on the podium in Malaysia that year having benefited from team orders. Nico obeyed but wasn't happy and created a PR storm. These days neither would mind having the other pull over for them.

[dj_bytedisaster]

That was 3 years ago and a lot has changed within the team since then. Hamilton was visibly embarrassed on the podium in Malaysia that year having benefited from team orders. Nico obeyed but wasn't happy and created a PR storm. These days neither would mind having the other pull over for them.

True, but would either of them pull over for the other? I have massive doubts that Lewis, while in the championship lead, would have let Nico pass. So far, since the start of the 2014 season, he has disobeyed most instructions he's been given, and that were sometimes simple things like going to a different engine mode or coming in to change tyres.

[Nitrodaze]

True, but would either of them pull over for the other? I have massive doubts that Lewis, while in the championship lead, would have let Nico pass. So far, since the start of the 2014 season, he has disobeyed most instructions he's been given, and that were sometimes simple things like going to a different engine mode or coming in to change tyres.

Not sure you could call those instances disobedience. Sometimes the driver must go with their instincts of what he thinks is advantageous for his chances to maintain their track advantage. As Vettel rightly did in Baku which secured him a podium position. Kimi who complied lost a few track position as a result.

If you look at those instances that matter, you will find that Hamilton has obeyed instructions when asked to maintain positions. Mexico last year was an example. The fact of the matter is that the battle between these guys is more intense this year than ever. Rosberg is more determined to maintain his point advantage and more robust in his attempt to fight with Hamilton on track. Unfortunately, he gets carried away with it and loses cheap points in the process.

With regards to Rosberg being told to let Hamilton through at Monaco. It is just common sense. Hamilton would have eventually past him. But he would have done so after the opportunity to win the race had past. Getting him pass Rosberg when they did was the only chance Mercedes had to win the race. They were not going to win it with Rosberg in a troubled car. C'est la vie.

[henners88]

True, but would either of them pull over for the other? I have massive doubts that Lewis, while in the championship lead, would have let Nico pass. So far, since the start of the 2014 season, he has disobeyed most instructions he's been given, and that were sometimes simple things like going to a different engine mode or coming in to change tyres.
I don't think any driver enjoys letting a team mate and championship rival through. We've heard on more than a few occasions where drivers are told to let their teammate through yet the following car is not even close to catching them. Lewis was once asked to let Nico through and his answer was 'if he gets close enough I will, but I'm not losing time'.

In Monaco Nico let Lewis through because it worked to his advantage too. In a failing car the last thing you need to be doing is defending against Lewis Hamilton. Nico also had a huge points advantage at that point. I can't see either driver obeying under normal conditions with the championship this close.

[Bagwan]

I don't think any driver enjoys letting a team mate and championship rival through. We've heard on more than a few occasions where drivers are told to let their teammate through yet the following car is not even close to catching them. Lewis was once asked to let Nico through and his answer was 'if he gets close enough I will, but I'm not losing time'.

In Monaco Nico let Lewis through because it worked to his advantage too. In a failing car the last thing you need to be doing is defending against Lewis Hamilton. Nico also had a huge points advantage at that point. I can't see either driver obeying under normal conditions with the championship this close.

We have seen , though , that the Merc , whether in Nico's or Lewis's hands , has a lot of trouble in dirty air , so getting close enough was a tall ask .

[henners88]

We have seen , though , that the Merc , whether in Nico's or Lewis's hands , has a lot of trouble in dirty air , so getting close enough was a tall ask .
Hamilton is lucky in that respect because he has a pretty successful history of crowding Rosberg into a mistake. The last race was no exception. I remember Monza being a good example a couple of years ago.

[Mia 01]

To what use? Lewis will never follow them.

[henners88]

To what use? Lewis will never follow them.

What makes you think Nico will?

[Bagwan]

What makes you think Nico will?

Well , he did just say that would .

[dj_bytedisaster]

What makes you think Nico will?

Because he already proved that he does? Monaco GP anyone?

[N. Jones]

Sack him or swap him with Wehrlein?

That's an idea - swap the offender with Wehrlien!

[henners88]

Because he already proved that he does? Monaco GP anyone?

See post #40.

I can't be bothered to write it again.

[Bagwan]

In Monaco Nico let Lewis through because it worked to his advantage too. In a failing car the last thing you need to be doing is defending against Lewis Hamilton. Nico also had a huge points advantage at that point. I can't see either driver obeying under normal conditions with the championship this close.

Sorry , henners , but you need to cut Nico some slack on that one .
If he had held Lewis up any longer , you would have flayed him for being selfish and not playing the team game , and you know it .
He let him by because it was the right thing to do .

[Big Ben]

For anyone interested as of right now I rank the top drivers thus

1. Hamilton
2. Vettel
3. Alonso
4. Rosberg
5. Verstappen
6. Ricciardo
7. Raikkonen
8. Button
The one thing I don't get about this ranking is that you said one post above you would rank Hamilton higher if not for his ability to **** up sometimes. How much higher than that?

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[henners88]

Sorry , henners , but you need to cut Nico some slack on that one .
If he had held Lewis up any longer , you would have flayed him for being selfish and not playing the team game , and you know it .
He let him by because it was the right thing to do .

He let him by because he knew he would wreck his tyres trying to defend. It was the right thing to do for him, Hamilton and the team. If the order had come when Nico believed he had a chance to win, I am not convinced he would have moved over. I don't think either of these guys would move over in that situation, nor should they.

If he had held Hamilton up and cost either of them a win, of course I would have criticised him.

[steveaki13]

The one thing I don't get about this ranking is that you said one post above you would rank Hamilton higher if not for his ability to **** up sometimes. How much higher than that?

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I meant in historical company. I view him as the best around today, but not amongst the very best drivers in history. :)

[dj_bytedisaster]

He let him by because he knew he would wreck his tyres trying to defend. It was the right thing to do for him, Hamilton and the team. If the order had come when Nico believed he had a chance to win, I am not convinced he would have moved over. I don't think either of these guys would move over in that situation, nor should they.

If he had held Hamilton up and cost either of them a win, of course I would have criticised him.

Hamilton has never in his life thought about the team. Why should Nico? All it would have taken was to delay im one or two more laps and RIC would have won even with the pit blunder. Yet, Rosberg, didn't hesitate. Lewis would never do that.

[henners88]

Hamilton has never in his life thought about the team. Why should Nico? All it would have taken was to delay im one or two more laps and RIC would have won even with the pit blunder. Yet, Rosberg, didn't hesitate. Lewis would never do that.
One is a triple World Champion and the other is not.

Rosberg needs to be more ruthless but be good at it too.

[steveaki13]

I kind of agree.

These kind of things have always happened in motorsport and if you are good enough and ruthless enough they seem to work for you (Senna, Schumacher (although it worked once and failed once).

Nico had some luck in Monaco where it worked but generally he comes out even or worse off.

I without doubt see more incidents ahead as this Championship looks closer than either of the last 2.

[jens]

It is the ever-lasting dilemma, isn't it? For spectators it is great and even for the team it can create some additional publicity if there is a great rivalry, which catches attention.

On the flip-side you don't want to lose too many points and you don't want to look unprofessional. Even though Mercedes currently enjoys a relatively comfortable advantage in the points, they won't tolerate crashing out in every other race.

[henners88]

The last two incidents have involved Lewis going for gaps and Rosberg being far too aggressive. Yes you could say Lewis is aggressive too by trying to sneak by, but I do think Nico needs to learn that contact is not the only way to defend. There is nothing wrong with closing a gap, but both racers need to respect each other.

Just remember back to when Button and Hamilton were battling in Turkey a few years ago, they touched but had a mutual respect for each other. They knew when to pull out or yield. I don't get the impression Nico has that level of race craft and he does tend to buckle at times when under pressure on track. His best moment was Bahrain 2014. I wish we could go back to that level of professionalism from both of them.

The main problem is both drivers are sulky when they don't get their own way. At least when Button was Hamilton's teammate he didn't hold a grudge, he is generally a nice guy. That is why Barrichello looked bad in 2009 when he played the sulky card with the media. Mercedes need 2 very different personalities, not 2 identical IMO.

[The Black Knight]

I meant in historical company. I view him as the best around today, but not amongst the very best drivers in history. :)

I regard Alonso as the best of the current grid and, unless someone does an amazing season like he did in 2012, I can't really see that changing. Hamilton is a great driver but he does not walk with the all time greats, in my opinion.

What annoys me about Hamilton is he has the ability to be amongst the all time greats but his work etiquette, or lack thereof, is what lets him down. He doesn't work enough with his Engineers. On any one day, he can be untouchable but then the next he will piss around and be completely off form. Look at Baku qualifying, or Austria Free Practice sessions. He's very inconsistent. I don't remember many off days for Schumacher in his prime. He was simply incredible, the best ever as far as I am concerned. I can remember many, many off days for Hamilton and it doesn't have to be that way if he worked harder.

[Nitrodaze]

Hamilton has never in his life thought about the team. Why should Nico? All it would have taken was to delay im one or two more laps and RIC would have won even with the pit blunder. Yet, Rosberg, didn't hesitate. Lewis would never do that.
In the Monaco circumstances, Hamilton would have realized just as Nico did that he could not win the race with the car under him and in the interest of the team he has to step aside. You are suggesting that Hamilton is unreasonable. I find that quite surprising.

[jens]

The main problem is both drivers are sulky when they don't get their own way. At least when Button was Hamilton's teammate he didn't hold a grudge, he is generally a nice guy. That is why Barrichello looked bad in 2009 when he played the sulky card with the media. Mercedes need 2 very different personalities, not 2 identical IMO.

Well. Mercedes may indeed employ team orders, but it is unlikely drivers would yield them... Except in extraoardinary circumstances, i.e at Monaco in 2016, because Rosberg was so slow and deep down he knew he had no chance to 'fight' for the win. Otherwise - who can blame the drivers, when the WDC is on the cards in a close fight. :p:

It reminds me a bit of Red Bull situation between Vettel and Webber, where the drivers repeteadly didn't obey to team orders (Brazil '12, Malaysia '13), forcing Horner to admit that "drivers failed understand, what Multi-12 or Multi-21 means." :p:

But these things can happen, when there are two 'difficult' characters racing on one piece of tarmac. And all of them want to win!

---

I think the main problem for Mercedes isn't that the drivers 'race' against each other, but... when they collide. Recall the late phase of 2014, when there were multiple races in which Rosberg qualified ahead, but Hamilton passed him on track (US, Japan). Good clean fights. I don't think anyone had a problem with these.

However, when there is "racing", you can't completely iron out possible mistakes one (or both) contenders may make. So it is a difficult dilemma for Mercedes. They must trust their own drivers are professional enough, which means that while they are racing against each other, they have the skills not to make many mistakes in these situations.

[Nitrodaze]

I regard Alonso as the best of the current grid and, unless someone does an amazing season like he did in 2012, I can't really see that changing. Hamilton is a great driver but he does not walk with the all time greats, in my opinion.

What annoys me about Hamilton is he has the ability to be amongst the all time greats but his work etiquette, or lack thereof, is what lets him down. He doesn't work enough with his Engineers. On any one day, he can be untouchable but then the next he will piss around and be completely off form. Look at Baku qualifying, or Austria Free Practice sessions. He's very inconsistent. I don't remember many off days for Schumacher in his prime. He was simply incredible, the best ever as far as I am concerned. I can remember many, many off days for Hamilton and it doesn't have to be that way if he worked harder.

This may well be where Hamilton and the team are falling out. He is being a little complacent in his work etiques. The main reason for that is the competition is really not there. All he has to do to win a title is beat Rosberg. If Ferrari and Redbull were more closer and punishes him when he is off his game, then he would find the need to stop pissing around. I think, Mercedes realize this, which may be why they are giving Rosberg more support. His gratitude for the opportunity seem to be only in words and not in attitude. That is another reason why l am rooting for Rosberg. But Rosberg frustrates me just as much as Hamilton does. Enough for me to wish Verstapenn or Ricciado could have more performance in the next few races to punish Mercedes for their complacency. At team and driver level.

[Nitrodaze]

BRAVO MERCEDES

Mercedes would not impose team orders

Bravo Toto
Bravo Paddy
Bravo Lauda

xxxxxxxxxxx [loads of kisses]

[Bagwan]

Here's some of what Nico had to say :
"For sure this is a serious matter which needs to be discussed.Because we are teammates in the end, and we must avoid contact and collisions and costing the team points in such a way.
Definitely it must be discussed, and that's what we did, very constructively, and come to some conclusions, agreements, and now it's moving forward.
For sure the message has arrived. They have done a very good job in bringing home the message."

"a very good job" sounds like he's happy with the "message" .

Hmmmm .
I wonder what the message is .
And , who it was for .

[Tazio]

:stareup: You never know with Nico, he is one cold fish. I think at least part of "the message" was directed at Niki, like keep your trap shut!

[henners88]

Here's some of what Nico had to say :
"For sure this is a serious matter which needs to be discussed.Because we are teammates in the end, and we must avoid contact and collisions and costing the team points in such a way.
Definitely it must be discussed, and that's what we did, very constructively, and come to some conclusions, agreements, and now it's moving forward.
For sure the message has arrived. They have done a very good job in bringing home the message."

"a very good job" sounds like he's happy with the "message" .

Hmmmm .
I wonder what the message is .
And , who it was for .

It sounds like Mercedes have given Nico a step by step guide in how to defend without ploughing into Lewis lol.

[Bagwan]

To me , it sounds like Nico and Lewis have been told that there will be no more crowding of team mates off the track .

Message received .

[henners88]

To me , it sounds like Nico and Lewis have been told that there will be no more crowding of team mates off the track .

Message received .
I'm sure they were both told that but Nico needs to pay more attention as the last two crashes have been his responsibility.

[Bagwan]

Point made , message received , then .