Whose fault is it?

[Koz]

So who do you guys think is at fault on this one, Lewis or Nico?

[steveaki13]

Haha.... good idea. This will run for a while.

I think both have to take a lot of blame. Not one or the other more IMO

[Koz]

Niki is blaming Lewis.

[henners88]

I think both had a part to play but after watching it several times it has to be Nico with the larger part. Not many people are blaming Lewis at this point.

I wouldn't want to be Toto or Niki calming down these ladies, I'm sure handbags are a swinging lol.

[dj_bytedisaster]

I wouldn't want to be Toto or Niki calming down these ladies, I'm sure handbags are a swinging lol.

Lauda already said that Lewis is at fault.

[henners88]

Lauda already said that Lewis is at fault.

Yeah I've just seen that, I disagree with him on this one.

[Koz]

Toto trying not to blame anyone in particular, but not seemingly agreeing with Niki 100%.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Toto trying not to blame anyone in particular, but not seemingly agreeing with Niki 100%.

To me it sounded more like that he tried to say that Lauda's interviews were premature. At least if we saw the same interview on Sky Germany.

[henners88]

Toto saying on C4 that it's not easy to pick who is at fault as both made errors. He commented that Lauda sees it from a drivers perspective rather than viewing the data and replays.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Toto saying on C4 that it's not easy to pick who is at fault as both made errors. He commented that Lauda sees it from a drivers perspective rather than viewing the data and replays.

Lauda's main criticism was that Lewis tried it at a point where it was only possible to overtake with substantial risk and he had no understanding for forcing the issue in turn two of a 66 lap race. He seemed to be convinced that Lewis would have overtaken anyway at a later (less risky) point.

[henners88]

Lauda's main criticism was that Lewis tried it at a point where it was only possible to overtake with substantial risk and he had no understanding for forcing the issue in turn two of a 66 lap race. He seemed to be convinced that Lewis would have overtaken anyway at a later (less risky) point.

It was a premature move I agree. Nico played his part though I think and for that reason I agree with the racing incident suggestion.

[dj_bytedisaster]

It was a premature move I agree. Nico played his part though I think and for that reason I agree with the racing incident suggestion.

That's where the infamous team-internal "rules of engagement" at Mercedes come into play. They were established after Spa 2014 and they demand that team-internal overtakes require that the driver behind takes responsibility to avoid risk. That's why Nico always backed off when Lewis chopped across his bow. This time it was Lewis's responsibility and he ignored it, which was why even his biggest supporter was po'ed with him. I think Merc shot themselves in the foot with their constant stage-managing here, because they should have known that Lewis doesn't follow the team-internal rules after such a long time without a win.

[driveace]

Toto said that Rosberg lost momentum out of the corner ,maybe due to power loss,Hamilton avoided a rear collision ,and went for the pass Rosberg then tried to close the door ,forcing Hamilton onto the grass at 200 kph .Stewards will decide penalty at end of race .

[denkimi]

looking at the onboard images of hamilton, it would say its his fault. by the time he was next to nico, he was already on the gras. he tried to dive into an already disappearing hole.

imo rosberg was not obligated to leave space there .

[Triumph]

I think it was just a racing incident.

Lewis was desperate to get back past Nico having been out-manoeuvred at turn 1, and then he found himself gaining suddenly due to (apparently) Nico losing power unexpectedly. With a fraction of a second to make a decision he went up the inside as Nico moved across to defend. I think it was pretty likely that Nico was going to move across and defend, but perhaps the unexpected speed differential is what made the difference to the outcome.

[N. Jones]

I think both are at fault.

[The Black Knight]

http://oi67.tinypic.com/2w7kdgx.jpg

This clearly shows Lewis alongside Nico and all four wheels on the track. Nico has an obligation per the rules to leave one cars width at this point. Instead Nico pushed him wide. It may not have been intentional but it was definitely Nico's fault. The rules are the rules and the image shows Lewis is alongside, therefore, Nico should have given him room.

[TMorel]

So does Nico being distracted by changing strat settings change anyones views or is that a red herring?
I was probably always going to support Lewis so my opinion is probably already clouded.

[Bagwan]

I must say something in defense of Lewis Hamilton here .

Rosberg should have known , after having beaten him out of the first corner , and having seemingly missed the optimum settings on his car , that Lewis would be a freight train coming through regardless of him shutting the door before he got there .

[dj_bytedisaster]

I must say something in defense of Lewis Hamilton here .

Rosberg should have known , after having beaten him out of the first corner , and having seemingly missed the optimum settings on his car , that Lewis would be a freight train coming through regardless of him shutting the door before he got there .

So basically you're saying it is Rosberg's responsibility to move over whenever Lewis has put his helmet on back-to-front?

[Bagwan]

So basically you're saying it is Rosberg's responsibility to move over whenever Lewis has put his helmet on back-to-front?

Makes me misty just thinking about it .

[Mia 01]

Lauda Thinks it, Lewis admitt it on Sky, so who am I, clearly Hamiltons fault.

[Bagwan]

Lauda Thinks it, Lewis admitt it on Sky, so who am I, clearly Hamiltons fault.

Hey , your vote counts too , Mia !

You have a keen eye for talent . Your boy got second . Congrats !

[henners88]

Well the dust has settled and we've heard more views on it. I still think both drivers are at fault with it being slightly tipped towards Nico.

It gave us an exciting race though and I'm glad to see a non-Merc car win for once.

[A FONDO]

Absolutely Hamilton's fault. Started from pole, got overtaken on the very first corner and crashed on the fourth retiring another guy with him.

[Bagwan]

Well the dust has settled and we've heard more views on it. I still think both drivers are at fault with it being slightly tipped towards Nico.

It gave us an exciting race though and I'm glad to see a non-Merc car win for once.

All kidding aside , henners , I'm the other way around , with it tipped maybe a bit farther the other way .
Nico really should have known Lewis wouldn't back out of a try , even if he really wasn't obligated to leave room .
The only way to intimidate Lewis out of a move is to be earlier , or more forceful with the defense .
Unfortunately , his engine mode issue had him shifting it mid-corner , after Lewis had seen his red light .

That red light made it all the more necessary for Nico to assert himself clearly , as Hamilton saw the weak moment , and he didn't .

In effect , I see it as Nico having closed the door in Lewis's face , even though he knew he was running towards it .
And I see Lewis running towards a door he knew was closing .


It was close .

Had Lewis been a few feet farther along side , it would have been all down to Nico .

A few feet makes Lewis the donkey , but Nico was a bit of an a$$ , too .

[dj_bytedisaster]

A few feet makes Lewis the donkey , but Nico was a bit of an a$$ , too .

Like Lewis had been so often. He has ran Nico out of space on more than one occasion (Bahrain 14, Hungray 14 spring to mind) Nico has always backed out until Spa '14 and he got publically been pilloried for it. Now, for the first time since they've been team mates, Nico had Lewis in a position where it was 'back out or crash' and Lewis dutifully caused a crash while Nico usually backed out and salvaged points. First of all that says something about Lewis's racecraft. He wanted to decide a 66-lap race in turn four of the first lap. It starkly reminds me of Hill in Adelaide 1994. Schumacher had smashed his car to bits, yet Hill tried to overtake at a stupid location instead of just sailing past a few corners later. The stewards and Merc themselves deem that a racing incident, but from a 'race craft' point of view it was entirely Lewis's fault.

He demonstrated his two main weaknesses this weekend. First was his inability to setup his car. Smoking pot at Barbeidos seems to be more important. His qualifying lap was an amazing piece of work, but it came about because he was given Rosberg's setup data. He had gone nowhere on Friday. And his second weakness is the lack of race intelligence. Lewis always operates with the crowbar. Sometimes a needle is the better tool, but he doesn't know how to use it.

[Big Ben]

The thing is that Hamilton is just not the sharpest tool in the shed but a tool nevertheless

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

[Zico]

Not being a fanboy of either, I can see valid arguments from both sides.
Both at fault but not sure if any should be apportioned most of the blame... so a racing incident for me.
Its easy for us armchair experts to point the fingers but let's not forget how fast these things can happen at 200kph+ and also with the speed differential between the two.

[Nitrodaze]

So the arguments begin... Whose fault is it you ask? Well, if you can be objective then these are the facts:-

1. Hamilton lost the drag race to the first corner. Rosberg overtakes on the outside which shows how Hamilton has taken care to give Nico tons of space to avoid a collision.
2. They come out of the corner in to the short straight to turn two. Nico moves left to cover that side
3. Nico discovers that he wasd in the wrong engine mode and proceeds to correct it quickly before turn two. At this point, Nico was down on power and Hamilton was clearly much faster as he was bearing down on a slower Nico.
4. From Hamiltons perspective, Nico had the left side covered but had the right side open by more than a cars width. Hamilton, seeing the opportunity on the right, decides to overtake. Meanwhile, Nico was fiddling with knobs on the steering.
5. Nico finished just in time to see Hamilton heading for the open right side then turned sharply to cut him off. But his reaction was abit late. Hamilton had to take to the grass to avoid a collision, lost grip on the grass, spun round and crashed into Nico.

So the questions are as follows:-

Would any other driver in the grid in Hamilton's position seeing the opportunity and the clear open door to Nico's right not attempt to go for the overtake?

Did Nico, knowing he was in the incorrect engine mode, hence would be slower than the cars behind him momentarily take the right action to avoid a collision from the faster cars behind him? Hence was his attempt to defend the open right side of him under his circumstance not dangerous? Both drivers walked away from that one, but it could have also easily been a fatal accident for Hamilton.

This is racing, not an effing procession. I think Nico should have left a car's width as Hamilton left for him at turn one. His late move to defend the open right side as a result of correcting being in the wrong engine mode was reckless and unsportmanlike. It is similar to his move on Ricciado that resulted in him having a puncture to the rear when he had the opportunity to take the lead of the championship going into the mid season break in 2014.

In my opinion, the stewards at the race were crap. We wanted to see a fair fight at the front, what we saw today was very sub-standard defensive drive by Rosberg that cost Mercedes easy 43 points. I was quite surprise to hear Lauda who normally is very objective about his opinions blame Hamilton before the analysis of the accident had taken place. Hamilton was abit naive today to quickly accept fault without first waiting to see all the fact of the accident before putting his hand up to accept the fault.

Should we expect accidents to occur each time Rosberg receives challenge from a charging Hamilton? At this rate, Mercedes may hand the drivers title to Redbull or Ferrari [if they get their act together].

It is not respectable to not accept fault when it is clearly yours. Nico caused what could have been a fatal accident by not leaving a cars width. You may argue that he was in front and had the right to defend. Our conversation would haave been very different if Hamilton got killed due to that accident which was clearly very reckless.

[Nitrodaze]

So the arguments begin... Whose fault is it you ask? Well, if you can be objective then these are the facts:-

1. Hamilton lost the drag race to the first corner. Rosberg overtakes on the outside which shows how Hamilton has taken care to give Nico tons of space to avoid a collision.
2. They come out of the corner in to the short straight to turn two. Nico moves left to cover that side
3. Nico discovers that he was in the wrong engine mode and proceeds to correct it quickly before turn two. At this point, Nico was down on power and Hamilton was clearly much faster as he was bearing down on a slower Nico.
4. From Hamilton's perspective, Nico had the left side covered but had the right side open by more than a cars width. Hamilton, seeing the opportunity on the right, decides to overtake. Meanwhile, Nico was fiddling with knobs on the steering.
5. Nico finished just in time to see Hamilton heading for the open right side then turned sharply to cut him off. But his reaction was abit late. Hamilton had to take to the grass to avoid a collision, lost grip on the grass, spun round and crashed into Nico.

So the questions are as follows:-

Would any other driver in the grid in Hamilton's position seeing the opportunity and the clear open door to Nico's right not attempt to go for the overtake?

Did Nico, knowing he was in the incorrect engine mode, hence would be slower than the cars behind him momentarily take the right action to avoid a collision from the faster cars behind him? Hence was his attempt to defend the open right side of him under his circumstances not dangerous? Both drivers walked away from that one, but it could have also easily been a fatal accident for Hamilton.

This is racing, not an effing procession. I think Nico should have left a car's width as Hamilton left for him at turn one. His late move to defend the open right side as a result of correcting being in the wrong engine mode was reckless and unsportmanlike. It is similar to his move on Ricciado that resulted in him having a puncture to the rear when he had the opportunity to take the lead of the championship going into the mid season break in 2014.

In my opinion, the stewards at the race were crap. We wanted to see a fair fight at the front, what we saw today was very sub-standard defensive drive by Rosberg that cost Mercedes easy 43 points. I was quite surprise to hear Lauda who normally is very objective about his opinions blame Hamilton before the analysis of the accident had taken place. Hamilton was abit naive today to quickly accept fault without first waiting to see all the facts of the accident before putting his hand up to accept the fault.

Should we expect accidents to occur each time Rosberg receives challenge from a charging Hamilton? At this rate, Mercedes may hand the drivers title to Redbull or Ferrari [if they get their act together].

It is not respectable to not accept fault when it is clearly yours. Nico caused what could have been a fatal accident by not leaving a cars width. You may argue that he was in front and had the right to defend. Our conversation would have been very different if Hamilton got killed due to that accident which was clearly very reckless.

[dj_bytedisaster]

.

This is racing, not an effing procession. I think Nico should have left a car's width as Hamilton left for him at turn one. His late move to defend the open right side as a result of correcting being in the wrong engine mode was reckless and unsportmanlike. It is similar to his move on Ricciado that resulted in him having a puncture to the rear when he had the opportunity to take the lead of the championship going into the mid season break in 2014.



There's the flaw in your logic, because Nico started to move right BEFORE Lewis did. In fact his move was practically telegraphed. Lewis thought his speed advantage was big enough to be alongside before Nico could close the gap, but he misjudged that. According to Stewards verdict Rosberg simply kept his line by the time Lewis came alongside, wchich is a valid bahaviour.

Short and simple: too much impatience on Lewis's behalf. F1 cars come with brakes for a reason. Trying such a desperate move in a car that is over one second faster than the rest of the field is simply not wise.

Mercedes have to take a part of the blame too. They refuse to let drivers go on different strategies and basically have been running a 'leader after T1 wins' rules since 2014. That sort of thing provokes such desperation.

[Nitrodaze]

There's the flaw in your logic, because Nico started to move right BEFORE Lewis did. In fact his move was practically telegraphed. Lewis thought his speed advantage was big enough to be alongside before Nico could close the gap, but he misjudged that. According to Stewards verdict Rosberg simply kept his line by the time Lewis came alongside, wchich is a valid bahaviour.

Short and simple: too much impatience on Lewis's behalf. F1 cars come with brakes for a reason. Trying such a desperate move in a car that is over one second faster than the rest of the field is simply not wise.

Mercedes have to take a part of the blame too. They refuse to let drivers go on different strategies and basically have been running a 'leader after T1 wins' rules since 2014. That sort of thing provokes such desperation.

I am not sure which race you were watching buddy, Nico's change of direction was at nearly 45%. It was not the normal racing line between turn one and two. Your argument fail in that Nico should have seen a faster car heading at him and taken avoiding but equally defensive action to ensure he remains in the race after turn two. A driver closes the door on cars behind if he sees it is safe and reasonable to do so, just as driver attempts to overtake a car in front when he sees a gap and sees that he has the speed advantage to make the overtake successfuly. There is an element of trust involved in making an overtake. Trust that the driver in front is good enough to recognise when there is a deficit of advantage lost to the car behind, hence an attempt to overtake is likely. And to make a sensible judgement call to defend in such a way as to not cause an accident.

When there is such a performance difference as there was between Nico and Hamilton while he sorted out his engine mode, the move to overtake is very much on. Any driver worth their weight in salt would definitely make that move. That was very similar to the Kyvat's move on Vettel in China. Vettel left enough room to avoid an accident.

Another interesting thing, was, Rosberg claims Hamilton was suddenly there. He clearly did not have any spacial awareness in the moments leading to the collision as he had his head down while all of it was going on.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Sorry, Nitro, I'm not buying that. The replay has been shown over and over again, Nico moved off the racing line pretty much immediately after he'd cleared the corner. Lewis had all the time in the world to lift, stay left and be past. He was simply too impatient and Rosberg saying that Hamilton was 'suddenly there' is not too far-fetched, considering that he had closed the door before Lewis came alongside with two wheels already in the grass. He was most likely expecting him on the left (and looking there), because that's where most other drivers would have easily sailed past, instead of trying to force open a gap that was already closed.

Okay, most except Ricciardo. He would have waited for the next corner and dive-bombed from three thenth behind.

[Nitrodaze]

Sorry, Nitro, I'm not buying that. The replay has been shown over and over again, Nico moved off the racing line pretty much immediately after he'd cleared the corner. Lewis had all the time in the world to lift, stay left and be past. He was simply too impatient and Rosberg saying that Hamilton was 'suddenly there' is not too far-fetched, considering that he had closed the door before Lewis came alongside with two wheels already in the grass. He was most likely expecting him on the left (and looking there), because that's where most other drivers would have easily sailed past, instead of trying to force open a gap that was already closed.

I suppose we would see what we want to see. With the speed difference between the the two cars, l fail to see how Hamilton had the time to slow down. He was on the grass to take avoiding action. Both of Hamilton's front wheel was well past the rear wheel of Rosberg, thus it was clear to Rosberg that moving to the right was going to drive Hamilton of the track unto the grass. If it was a runoff area, then that would have been a reasonable maneuver. As it went, it was grass, consequently resulted in an accident that also took him out of the race.
I would say go watch it again.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Sorry Nitro, but Hamiltons front wheel was never even next to Rosberg's rear wheel, much less past it. His front wing came close to the rear wheel of Nico's car, but he was already off the track beforehand. Both the overhead replay from the helicopter cam and his own incar replay showed that quite well. I guess we have to agree to disagree as we obviously saw two different races.

[Nitrodaze]

http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12472/10283387/merc-explain-nico-rosberg-lewis-hamiltons-spanish-gp-crash

Have a read of that.

Toto Wolff told a packed media briefing: "I think the manoeuvre was fair enough to attempt. The result was unfortunate, but making the manoeuvre and seeing the light [on Rosberg's car] blinking and just going for it was what he should have done.

"And equally you can't blame Nico for closing the door. But the difference of speed just triggered the incident in the end."

Buddy, the overtake was definitely on.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Nitro. The link says Sky UK. When have they ever been unbiased? And even Mercedes themselves don't know what to think. Wolff says both are at fault. Lauda says Lewis was wrong to try that. That in itself is rather funny, considering that Lauda has always been biased pro-Hamilton.

[Bagwan]

Patience of a saint , dj . Good man .

[dj_bytedisaster]

Anyway, off to bed for me. Have to go back to Austria tomorrow. It was good to see spirited debate back in the forum. It has been way too quiet lately. Cheers all :)

[Rollo]

So who do you guys think is at fault on this one, Lewis or Nico?


Rupert Murdoch's.
I still won't see any of this race until 09:30pm tonight and even then it will only be an hour of highlights.

[Starter]

Sorry Nitro, but Hamiltons front wheel was never even next to Rosberg's rear wheel, much less past it. His front wing came close to the rear wheel of Nico's car, but he was already off the track beforehand. Both the overhead replay from the helicopter cam and his own incar replay showed that quite well. I guess we have to agree to disagree as we obviously saw two different races.
The photo from the in-car cam in post #17 would seem to indicate otherwise.

[The Black Knight]

http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12472/10283387/merc-explain-nico-rosberg-lewis-hamiltons-spanish-gp-crash

Have a read of that.

Toto Wolff told a packed media briefing: "I think the manoeuvre was fair enough to attempt. The result was unfortunate, but making the manoeuvre and seeing the light [on Rosberg's car] blinking and just going for it was what he should have done.

"And equally you can't blame Nico for closing the door. But the difference of speed just triggered the incident in the end."

Buddy, the overtake was definitely on.

Don't bother showing DJ any links which make sense, Nitro. Unless it's from a German news agency it's all bias, apparently.

To be fair to Sky, I think their reporting was exceptionally unbiased. Crofy, Ted Kravitz, Brundle and Davidson all had differing views on it initially and aired them. Anthony Davidson's post race analysis of the accident is really top notch. I don't agree with him that Rosberg's capacity was maxed out but I do think Rosberg misjudged the situation which happens in racing.

[Rollo]

After looking at this online... 100% Lewis.

He was behind and if you apply the rules of road accidents, he is the following car; therefore could have backed out.

[AndyL]

So the arguments begin... Whose fault is it you ask? Well, if you can be objective then these are the facts:-

1. Hamilton lost the drag race to the first corner. Rosberg overtakes on the outside which shows how Hamilton has taken care to give Nico tons of space to avoid a collision.
2. They come out of the corner in to the short straight to turn two. Nico moves left to cover that side
3. Nico discovers that he wasd in the wrong engine mode and proceeds to correct it quickly before turn two. At this point, Nico was down on power and Hamilton was clearly much faster as he was bearing down on a slower Nico.
4. From Hamiltons perspective, Nico had the left side covered but had the right side open by more than a cars width. Hamilton, seeing the opportunity on the right, decides to overtake. Meanwhile, Nico was fiddling with knobs on the steering.
5. Nico finished just in time to see Hamilton heading for the open right side then turned sharply to cut him off. But his reaction was abit late. Hamilton had to take to the grass to avoid a collision, lost grip on the grass, spun round and crashed into Nico.

So the questions are as follows:-

Would any other driver in the grid in Hamilton's position seeing the opportunity and the clear open door to Nico's right not attempt to go for the overtake?

Did Nico, knowing he was in the incorrect engine mode, hence would be slower than the cars behind him momentarily take the right action to avoid a collision from the faster cars behind him? Hence was his attempt to defend the open right side of him under his circumstance not dangerous? Both drivers walked away from that one, but it could have also easily been a fatal accident for Hamilton.

This is racing, not an effing procession. I think Nico should have left a car's width as Hamilton left for him at turn one. His late move to defend the open right side as a result of correcting being in the wrong engine mode was reckless and unsportmanlike. It is similar to his move on Ricciado that resulted in him having a puncture to the rear when he had the opportunity to take the lead of the championship going into the mid season break in 2014.

In my opinion, the stewards at the race were crap. We wanted to see a fair fight at the front, what we saw today was very sub-standard defensive drive by Rosberg that cost Mercedes easy 43 points. I was quite surprise to hear Lauda who normally is very objective about his opinions blame Hamilton before the analysis of the accident had taken place. Hamilton was abit naive today to quickly accept fault without first waiting to see all the fact of the accident before putting his hand up to accept the fault.

Should we expect accidents to occur each time Rosberg receives challenge from a charging Hamilton? At this rate, Mercedes may hand the drivers title to Redbull or Ferrari [if they get their act together].

It is not respectable to not accept fault when it is clearly yours. Nico caused what could have been a fatal accident by not leaving a cars width. You may argue that he was in front and had the right to defend. Our conversation would haave been very different if Hamilton got killed due to that accident which was clearly very reckless.

I think this is a good analysis. Nico should have left a car's width. I don't really know what Lewis should have done differently. It's true he could have anticipated that the gap he was going for might disappear, and if his goal was to come second in the race he would surely have backed off and not taken the risk. But if you no longer go for a gap that exists...

It's a fine line because if the guy ahead moves across and you hit the back of him, it's going to look like your fault. But if you get partly alongside and he crunches your front wing or pushes you off, it looks like his fault (and indeed the rules say so). The difference between the two is milliseconds. For that reason I don't agree with your conclusion that the stewards should have taken action. In this case Nico was in the wrong by mere milliseconds. I don't think the stewards should be taking action, or certainly nothing more than a slapped wrist anyway, unless the situation is more clear-cut.

[AndyL]

After looking at this online... 100% Lewis.

He was behind and if you apply the rules of road accidents, he is the following car; therefore could have backed out.

Also his car had no tax or MOT and I'm pretty sure he wasn't carrying his red warning triangle.

[zako85]

Lewis was coming so fast that there is no way he could respond to Rosberg's block without losing the control of car. At the same time, I'd like to give the benefit of the doubt to Rosberg because he may not have been able to predict the difference in speed between the two cars, so he couldn't have predicted that Hamilton would have to crash because of Rosberg's move to the right side of the track. It's Rosberg's fault, but not necessarily intentional one. I think it would be nice for the harmony of relations within Mercedes team if Rosberg came clean and apologized for his intentional or unintentional mistake.

[Bagwan]

Something that has been missed , I think , at least by myself , is that the reported speed differential between the cars was actually greatly reduced by the time they were touching because we saw Nico hit the overtake button .

Lewis saw the light flash , understood what it meant , but may not have known that it had been switched back , giving his opponent the grunt to be to the edge of the track before he was .
Easy mistake .

[Rollo]

Dale a tu cuerpo alegría Macarena.
Que tu cuerpo es pa’ darle alegría y cosas buenas.
Dale a tu cuerpo alegría Macarena
¡PASTOR MALDONADO! Aaay!


Wait, he's not around any more...

[Bagwan]

Dale a tu cuerpo alegría Macarena.
Que tu cuerpo es pa’ darle alegría y cosas buenas.
Dale a tu cuerpo alegría Macarena
¡PASTOR MALDONADO! Aaay!


Wait, he's not around any more...

Whose fault is that ?

[The Black Knight]

Something that has been missed , I think , at least by myself , is that the reported speed differential between the cars was actually greatly reduced by the time they were touching because we saw Nico hit the overtake button .

Lewis saw the light flash , understood what it meant , but may not have known that it had been switched back , giving his opponent the grunt to be to the edge of the track before he was .
Easy mistake .

No it hadn't. Once you hit the overtake button after switching modes it takes 100 metres for the extra boost to kick on, so Nico virtually got zero benefit from it and if you'd bothered to look at the onboard footage from Lewis and make your own judgement rather than just jumping on the Lewis is wrong fence you'd see what a stupid comment that is.

[The Black Knight]

After looking at this online... 100% Lewis.

He was behind and if you apply the rules of road accidents, he is the following car; therefore could have backed out.

I'm assuming this reasoning is a joke as rules of the road accident law doesn't apply in racing.

[dj_bytedisaster]

I'm assuming this reasoning is a joke as rules of the road accident law doesn't apply in racing.

They do within Mercedes. After the infamous accident at Spa they developed a number of rules, internally called "rules of engagement", which demand that team-internal overtaking is only permitted without taking obvious risks of crashing and the overtaking driver is obliged to make sure of that. That's why Lauda was so po'ed despite being Lewis's biggest supporter within the team. As far as I can remember, this was the first time he blamed Lewis for anything.

[Bagwan]

No it hadn't. Once you hit the overtake button after switching modes it takes 100 metres for the extra boost to kick on, so Nico virtually got zero benefit from it and if you'd bothered to look at the onboard footage from Lewis and make your own judgement rather than just jumping on the Lewis is wrong fence you'd see what a stupid comment that is.

Don't be stupid .
If you'd bothered to read all my comments , you'd see that I have apportioned blame to both , and you might have surmised that I was leaning back towards it being a more even split on blame .

Don't be stupid enough to assume that I haven't watched the on-board , and the view from the helicopter as well .
I have , and didn't miss Nico's clear intention to shut the door .
And , I didn't miss Lewis trying to get there before he did .

I was assuming that the press of the button would give a more instantaneous boost than 100 metres later , it's true .
But , it was something that I read this morning , and I can't seem to find it again for reference .

From where does your 100 metre figure come ?

[Mintexmemory]

Another example of x-box generation driving from Rosberg - he was down on power and had left a door open which he thought he could close without harm to himself. Where could Hamilton go? LH was committed to the move and being squeezed attempted to avoid collision but was too far on the grass. Just as well that Rosberg was unable to profit from his appalling decision!

[Brown, Jon Brow]

The poll needs a third option for 'racing incident' or the option to vote for both drivers.

My initial instinct was that it was a desperate block from Rosberg that forced Lewis off, however, Lewis always had the option to lift off the gas. Both racing drivers reacted instinctively in the heat of wheel to wheel racing, and it resulted in a crash. This is a racing incident.

The biggest contribution was that Rosberg was for some unknown reason in the incorrect engine mode.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Another example of x-box generation driving from Rosberg - he was down on power and had left a door open which he thought he could close without harm to himself. Where could Hamilton go? LH was committed to the move and being squeezed attempted to avoid collision but was too far on the grass. Just as well that Rosberg was unable to profit from his appalling decision!

and the driver from the Oculus Rift generation wins the race :laugh:

[N4D13]

Even though I support Rosberg, I considered him to be slightly more at fault than Lewis here, if only because he might have been slightly overzealous in blocking Hamilton. However, it's closer to 50-50 than anyone taking most of the blame.

[steveaki13]

Even though I support Rosberg, I considered him to be slightly more at fault than Lewis here, if only because he might have been slightly overzealous in blocking Hamilton. However, it's closer to 50-50 than anyone taking most of the blame.

This is a well balanced view. I would say 60-40 Hamilton's fault, but a racing incident.

I think Rosberg's move was surprisingly hard and maybe shows just how determined he is to do it this season.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Fair play to Rosberg for not jumping out of the way for Hamilton, like he would have done in 2014 and 2015.

With the points gap he has now over Hamilton, a none score for both of them is a better result for Rosberg. Hamilton can't really afford anymore DNFs, which should give Rosberg the psychological edge over Hamilton in wheel to wheel racing.

[Garry Walker]

That's where the infamous team-internal "rules of engagement" at Mercedes come into play. They were established after Spa 2014 and they demand that team-internal overtakes require that the driver behind takes responsibility to avoid risk. That's why Nico always backed off when Lewis chopped across his bow. This time it was Lewis's responsibility and he ignored it, which was why even his biggest supporter was po'ed with him.

Except the difference is that when LH was agressive towards Nico, Nico had the possibility of backing off. This time, Nico closed the down on Lewis just a tiny fraction too late and LH couldn't back off from the move anymore. I am more tolerant today of Nico's actions today, than yesterday, but I still put most of the blame on him. He closed the door on LH, when LH had his front wing already next to Nico's rear wheel. No way of backing down from there.




He demonstrated his two main weaknesses this weekend. First was his inability to setup his car. Smoking pot at Barbeidos seems to be more important. His qualifying lap was an amazing piece of work, but it came about because he was given Rosberg's setup data. He had gone nowhere on Friday. And his second weakness is the lack of race intelligence. Lewis always operates with the crowbar. Sometimes a needle is the better tool, but he doesn't know how to use it.
Besides the fact that drivers don't set the car up, name one driver who doesn't occasionally use his teammates setup. Senna did it, Prost did it, Schumacher did it. You have ZERO proof that LH does it more than other top drivers.

[andyone]

Toto said that Rosberg lost momentum out of the corner ,maybe due to power loss,Hamilton avoided a rear collision ,and went for the pass Rosberg then tried to close the door ,forcing Hamilton onto the grass at 200 kph .Stewards will decide penalty at end of race .

i think he has a point here. Hamilton was fast and he would have gone right behind Nico as he was gaining really fast.

[dj_bytedisaster]

From where does your 100 metre figure come ?

I would guess from his imagination. The boost button works instantly.

[The Black Knight]

Don't be stupid .
If you'd bothered to read all my comments , you'd see that I have apportioned blame to both , and you might have surmised that I was leaning back towards it being a more even split on blame .

Don't be stupid enough to assume that I haven't watched the on-board , and the view from the helicopter as well .
I have , and didn't miss Nico's clear intention to shut the door .
And , I didn't miss Lewis trying to get there before he did .

I was assuming that the press of the button would give a more instantaneous boost than 100 metres later , it's true .
But , it was something that I read this morning , and I can't seem to find it again for reference .

From where does your 100 metre figure come ?

Fair enough and apologies for my misinterpretation.

Lewis mentioned the 100 metres in an interview, that the mode switch takes 100 metres to kick in thus Nico didn't get and immediate benefit from hitting the boost button.

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hamilton-rosberg-the-spanish-gp-crash-in-their-own-words-737175/

[The Black Knight]

They do within Mercedes. After the infamous accident at Spa they developed a number of rules, internally called "rules of engagement", which demand that team-internal overtaking is only permitted without taking obvious risks of crashing and the overtaking driver is obliged to make sure of that. That's why Lauda was so po'ed despite being Lewis's biggest supporter within the team. As far as I can remember, this was the first time he blamed Lewis for anything.

Rubbish. You can never apply these type of rules to two racing drivers. Mercedes know this as much as anyone else. Lauda was pissed off because, as usual, he reacts before he knows the full story. Lewis had no obvious risk of crashing when he committed to the overtake, not until Nico cut across him.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Fair enough and apologies for my misinterpretation.

Lewis mentioned the 100 metres in an interview, that the mode switch takes 100 metres to kick in thus Nico didn't get and immediate benefit from hitting the boost button.

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hamilton-rosberg-the-spanish-gp-crash-in-their-own-words-737175/

If it would take 100 meters to kick in it would essentially be useless, because it is often used to defend against DRS. Giving a DRS'ing guy 100 meters head start would render it completely useless. I would be careful about the technical details that Lewis gave away in the interview. They were clearly aimed at stirring fire. For instance he said that Nico started the race in the wrong mode, which is technically impossible. Nico configured the wrong mode, into which the car switched after the RS mode was turned off automatically. His intentions became all clear when right on cue the Hamfosi brigade started bandying theories about that Nico only had consistently better starts than Lewis because he was cheating with engine modes.

Lewis is quite skilled at using interviews and social media to keep his supporters ready to rumble.

[AndyL]

Another example of x-box generation driving from Rosberg - he was down on power and had left a door open which he thought he could close without harm to himself. Where could Hamilton go? LH was committed to the move and being squeezed attempted to avoid collision but was too far on the grass. Just as well that Rosberg was unable to profit from his appalling decision!

Actually I think it's an example of Senna/Schumacher style ruthlessness from Rosberg. Obviously he wasn't deliberately attempting to cause an accident, but at the same time he chose not to leave a car's width and made absolutely sure that, one way or another, Hamilton was not coming through.

Rosberg's attitude after qualifying was interesting. He seemed quite unconcerned about being outqualified by a quarter of a second, like he's accepted that Hamilton's pace is going to be untouchable on a regular basis. I think he's realised that to win a championship against Hamilton is going to require that kind of ruthlessness to maximise every opportunity he has, and deny his teammate any opportunity that he can.

[The Black Knight]

If it would take 100 meters to kick in it would essentially be useless, because it is often used to defend against DRS. Giving a DRS'ing guy 100 meters head start would render it completely useless. I would be careful about the technical details that Lewis gave away in the interview. They were clearly aimed at stirring fire. For instance he said that Nico started the race in the wrong mode, which is technically impossible. Nico configured the wrong mode, into which the car switched after the RS mode was turned off automatically. His intentions became all clear when right on cue the Hamfosi brigade started bandying theories about that Nico only had consistently better starts than Lewis because he was cheating with engine modes.

Lewis is quite skilled at using interviews and social media to keep his supporters ready to rumble.

I'm not sure you read what I said correctly. It takes 100 metres to switch from the incorrect mode Nico was in going around turn 3 to switch into the correct mode. After RS mode was switched off, Nico found himself in an incorrect mode. I think this was safety car mode. Anyway, he then switched back to to his normal race setting mode but this mode takes 100 metres to switch in. It's not until this mode switch is completed that the boost button will work. But yes, the boost will work straight away under normal circumstances. It's ridiculous to suggest Nico was cheating with engine modes. That's clearly not the case. He has simply been better off the line so far this year.

[Bagwan]

Actually I think it's an example of Senna/Schumacher style ruthlessness from Rosberg. Obviously he wasn't deliberately attempting to cause an accident, but at the same time he chose not to leave a car's width and made absolutely sure that, one way or another, Hamilton was not coming through.

Rosberg's attitude after qualifying was interesting. He seemed quite unconcerned about being outqualified by a quarter of a second, like he's accepted that Hamilton's pace is going to be untouchable on a regular basis. I think he's realised that to win a championship against Hamilton is going to require that kind of ruthlessness to maximise every opportunity he has, and deny his teammate any opportunity that he can.

Nico pounded around the track on long runs and was confident of his race pace and tire management , I believe .
Couple that with his better starting this year and I think it explains his unconcerned reaction .

I also think he now understands that an over-confident Lewis is easier to beat than beaten down determined one .

[Mifune]

So the arguments begin... Whose fault is it you ask? Well, if you can be objective then these are the facts:-

1. Hamilton lost the drag race to the first corner. Rosberg overtakes on the outside which shows how Hamilton has taken care to give Nico tons of space to avoid a collision.
2. They come out of the corner in to the short straight to turn two. Nico moves left to cover that side
3. Nico discovers that he wasd in the wrong engine mode and proceeds to correct it quickly before turn two. At this point, Nico was down on power and Hamilton was clearly much faster as he was bearing down on a slower Nico.
4. From Hamiltons perspective, Nico had the left side covered but had the right side open by more than a cars width. Hamilton, seeing the opportunity on the right, decides to overtake. Meanwhile, Nico was fiddling with knobs on the steering.
5. Nico finished just in time to see Hamilton heading for the open right side then turned sharply to cut him off. But his reaction was abit late. Hamilton had to take to the grass to avoid a collision, lost grip on the grass, spun round and crashed into Nico.

So the questions are as follows:-

Would any other driver in the grid in Hamilton's position seeing the opportunity and the clear open door to Nico's right not attempt to go for the overtake?

Did Nico, knowing he was in the incorrect engine mode, hence would be slower than the cars behind him momentarily take the right action to avoid a collision from the faster cars behind him? Hence was his attempt to defend the open right side of him under his circumstance not dangerous? Both drivers walked away from that one, but it could have also easily been a fatal accident for Hamilton.

This is racing, not an effing procession. I think Nico should have left a car's width as Hamilton left for him at turn one. His late move to defend the open right side as a result of correcting being in the wrong engine mode was reckless and unsportmanlike. It is similar to his move on Ricciado that resulted in him having a puncture to the rear when he had the opportunity to take the lead of the championship going into the mid season break in 2014.

In my opinion, the stewards at the race were crap. We wanted to see a fair fight at the front, what we saw today was very sub-standard defensive drive by Rosberg that cost Mercedes easy 43 points. I was quite surprise to hear Lauda who normally is very objective about his opinions blame Hamilton before the analysis of the accident had taken place. Hamilton was abit naive today to quickly accept fault without first waiting to see all the fact of the accident before putting his hand up to accept the fault.

Should we expect accidents to occur each time Rosberg receives challenge from a charging Hamilton? At this rate, Mercedes may hand the drivers title to Redbull or Ferrari [if they get their act together].

It is not respectable to not accept fault when it is clearly yours. Nico caused what could have been a fatal accident by not leaving a cars width. You may argue that he was in front and had the right to defend. Our conversation would haave been very different if Hamilton got killed due to that accident which was clearly very reckless.



Something wrong with my browser, I'm missing the 2nd page of this...

[dj_bytedisaster]

The biggest fail in that is not someone but something, and that's the ridiculous engine formula. Back in the day when I learned to drive you had three pedals. One was for changing gears, one was for slwong down, informally called the girl's pedal and the third one was easy to work out. You press it and it gets loud and kills Johnny Polar Bear, you step off it and it gets slow and therefore unacceptable.

These days your engine decides that you could do with 160 bhp less because you were in the wrong strat-doo-dah and generally pushed one of the two-hundred thousand buttons a little out of sequence. Sod that...

[Nitrodaze]

Something wrong with my browser, I'm missing the 2nd page of this...

Yes you are right there should be some consideration given to Hamilton's attempted pass. There is no doubt that it was abit desperate. With such a gap as was apparent from the camera on Hamilton's car, if he hadn't attempted the move, most of us would have read more to it. Most people would have referred to that moment as a clear indication that Hamilton had lost his edge.

The most important thing was that the accident was avoidable by both drivers. The question is who is most culpable of the two. This is what the stewarts thought of the incident, their verdict as released to the press:-



'The incident concerned started when Car 6 [Rosberg] dropped into an incorrect power mode, as set by the driver prior to the start. This created a significant power differential between Car 6 and Car 44 [Hamilton] at the exit of Turn 3 coming onto the straight, resulting in as much as a 17kph speed difference between the two cars on the straight. Car 6 moved to the right to defend his position, as is his right under Art 27.7 of the Sporting regulations.

'Simultaneously Car 44 as the significantly faster car with, at that time, apparent space on the inside, moved to make the pass. Art 27.7 requires the leading driver to leave room, if there is a "significant portion" of the car attempting to pass alongside.

'Car 44 had a portion of his front wing inside Car 6 small fractions of a second prior to Car 44 having to leave the right side of the track to avoid an initial collision, which may have led him to believe he had the right to space on the right. Once on the grass on the side of the track Car 44 was no longer in control of the situation.

'Having heard extensively from both drivers and from the team, the Stewards determined that Car 6 had the right to make the maneuver that he did and that Car 44's attempt to overtake was reasonable, and that the convergence of events led neither driver to be wholly or predominantly at fault, and therefore take no further action.'

While they accepted Rosberg had a right to block and Hamilton had a right to attempt an overtake, they also clearly stated that according to the rule book, Rosberg was required to leave a car's width since Hamilton's front wing had, it their opinion, been along side Rosberg's car before Hamilton took avoiding action that put him on the grass.

Hence it is fair to say that Rosberg got away with not being slapped with a penalty. In the fierceness of the moment, the fight, both drivers were intensely commited to their emotionally charged actions. To block at all cost, to pass at all cost.

Which ever way you look at it, this battle is not over.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Yes you are right there should be some consideration given to Hamilton's attempted pass. There is no doubt that it was abit desperate. With such a gap as was apparent from the camera on Hamilton's car, if he hadn't attempted the move, most of us would have read more to it. Most people would have referred to that moment as a clear indication that Hamilton had lost his edge.

The most important thing was that the accident was avoidable by both drivers. The question is who is most culpable of the two. This is what the stewarts thought of the incident, their verdict as released to the press:-



While they accepted Rosberg had a right to block and Hamilton had a right to attempt an overtake, they also clearly stated that according to the rule book, Rosberg was required to leave a car's width since Hamilton's front wing had, it their opinion, been along side Rosberg's car before Hamilton took avoiding action that put him on the grass.

Hence it is fair to say that Rosberg got away with not being slapped with a penalty. In the fierceness of the moment, the fight, both drivers were intensely commited to their emotionally charged actions. To block at all cost, to pass at all cost.

Which ever way you look at it, this battle is not over.

No it is not, sorry ;)

The stewards said, when Hamilton got alongside, Nico didn't c hange direction, meaning the door was close before he got to it. That's not the same that you say.

[N. Jones]

So who do you guys think is at fault on this one, Lewis or Nico?

It's all YOUR fault!

[Starter]

The biggest fail in that is not someone but something, and that's the ridiculous engine formula. Back in the day when I learned to drive you had three pedals. One was for changing gears, one was for slwong down, informally called the girl's pedal and the third one was easy to work out. You press it and it gets loud and kills Johnny Polar Bear, you step off it and it gets slow and therefore unacceptable.

These days your engine decides that you could do with 160 bhp less because you were in the wrong strat-doo-dah and generally pushed one of the two-hundred thousand buttons a little out of sequence. Sod that...
The only intelligent response so far.

[N. Jones]

Is there any talk that Rosberg and Hamilton got into an argument over this? Just curious because I am sure both of them were PO'ed after ending up in the gravel.

[Nitrodaze]

No it is not, sorry ;)

The stewards said, when Hamilton got alongside, Nico didn't c hange direction, meaning the door was close before he got to it. That's not the same that you say.

We agree to disagree. We can all see different things in the shape of the clouds in the sky.

[driveace]

All I can say was It was a DJ_byte DISASTER ,

[henners88]

No it is not, sorry ;)

The stewards said, when Hamilton got alongside, Nico didn't c hange direction, meaning the door was close before he got to it. That's not the same that you say.

It's easy to say when you're not the one doing 145mph, and they are both human at the end of the day.

At Monaco I hope the only door Nico closes is at the hotel.