BRC 2016 Pirelli Carlisle Rally

[Fast Eddie WRC]

https://www.rallies.info/webentry/2016/pirellibrc/inc/logo.png

The Pirelli Carlisle Rally will take place on 30th April & 1st May 2016, with a ceremonial start in Carlisle City Centre before heading out to Kielder Forest.

Website: http://www.pirellicarlislerally.co.uk/

Spectators Timetable: http://www.pirellicarlislerally.co.uk/spectators-timetable/

Guide: http://www.pirellicarlislerally.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/PCR-2016-Rally-Guide-Final-compressed.pdf

Current Entry list: https://www.rallies.info/webentry/2016/pirellibrc/entries.php?type=u

[pettersolberg29]

Very tempted to go to this... any idea how many stages you could see in a day? The spectators timetable suggests each stage is only run once?

[EightGear]

Ahh, 'Shepherdshield', 'Chirdonhead.' Richard Burns Rally memories. :D

[the sniper]

It'd be interesting to know what the full itinerary is. In the rally guide under the Fuel/Tyres section it makes reference to a refuel after SS8 on route to SS9, so there's at least two stages not on that timetable. There's also a remote service between SS2 and SS3.

[MrJan]

Very tempted to go to this... any idea how many stages you could see in a day? The spectators timetable suggests each stage is only run once?

Blimey, you're keen. It's at the other end of the earth!! :D

Definitely no dice for me, going to be busy with Werrington hillclimb that weekend.

[Mintexmemory]

When I did it in 2012 2 -3 was the max. Long distance from car parking to stages.

[pettersolberg29]

3 stages a day isn't too bad... I'll see what info I can get nearer the time ;)

[Simmi]

Entries are in

https://www.rallies.info/webentry/2016/pirellibrc/entries.php?type=s

Looks like they've just rolled the BRC and BRC National events into one rally from the word go. A good entry. A few cars lost to the Irish Tarmac clash but not as many as there could have been.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Snow this morning on the Pirelli stages !

[Martin Liddle]

Anyone seen any info on car park charges?
According to Press Officer Ed Graham posting on BRF, £10 per car.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Couple of shakedown pics:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ChRhlV-WgAAvT2v.jpg:large

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ChRhpS_WgAEaezT.jpg:large

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ChRhk5zWkAENd9R.jpg:large

Good to see Thorburn made it with the 208 after gearbox flown over:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ChRpnnHWMAATj5S.jpg:large

Not much snow on the stages now:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ChRVay1XEAAJxC_.jpg:large

[Martin Liddle]

There are some notes from crews at stage finishes at http://www.pirellicarlislerally.co.uk/the-rally/stage-notes/ (obviously it is currently covering the Historic event crews but will cover BRC when they get there).

[Fast Eddie WRC]

SS1 7:30
Wilson Matthew - Loudon Beaten the bogey time.
Bogie David - Rae Kevin Beaten the bogey time.
Åhlin Fredrik - Abrahamsen Beaten the bogey time.
Evans Elfyn - Parry Craig Beaten the bogey time.

[Martin Liddle]

SS1 7:30
Wilson Matthew - Loudon Beaten the bogey time.
Bogie David - Rae Kevin Beaten the bogey time.
Åhlin Fredrik - Abrahamsen Beaten the bogey time.
Evans Elfyn - Parry Craig Beaten the bogey time.

Wilson didn't beat the bogey time; he equalled it.

[Simmi]

Well that's a good way to take the buzz out of the opening stage. Rally isn't long enough for this. Evans has pushed ahead on SS2 anyway.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Wilson didn't beat the bogey time; he equalled it.

Where are you getting the actual times ?

[Martin Liddle]

Where are you getting the actual times ?
Direct from the results system.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

What were the Top 4 times for Stage 1 ? Link ?

[Martin Liddle]

What were the Top 4 times for Stage 1 ? Link ?

Car 1 7:29.2
Car 2 7:23.6
Car 3 7:26.3
Car 5 7:30.0

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Trouble for Evans on SS3... :(

[Mirek]

Is there any live timing system existing? If so can You post a link? Thanks

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Ahlin takes the lead on stage 3 as Evans loses time. Bogie up to second and Wilson into third. Cave is on a mission and sits 4th...

[Fast Eddie WRC]

http://results.djames.org.uk/results/index.php?EventID=426&m=88

[EstWRC]

Young Wilson not bad at all so far. :p

[Martin Liddle]

http://results.djames.org.uk/results/index.php?EventID=426&m=88

or http://msabrc.com/rallyresults/

[Mirek]

Guys, what does it mean when there are 4 equal times shown on SS1 and SS4. That's for sure not possible by natural driving, so what's going on?

[Nornbugger]

Guys, what does it mean when there are 4 equal times shown on SS1 and SS4. That's for sure not possible by natural driving, so what's going on?

Bogie times are being beaten, shame to effectivel;y be losing stages when a rallys not that long anyway

[EstWRC]

What a mess, i dont get it oo. Ahlin lost 9 minutes?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Yep Ahlin in trouble now on SS4... Bogie leads ! (appropriately :) )

[Mirek]

Bogie times are being beaten, shame to effectivel;y be losing stages when a rallys not that long anyway

I still don't understand what does it mean. I have never seen something like that. What's the purpose?

[Martin Liddle]

I still don't understand what does it mean. I have never seen something like that. What's the purpose?
It is something that is more or less unique to UK rallying. There is a maximum average speed (in this case 70mph) and competitors going faster than that are credited with the 70mph time. The MSA claim that it something the insurers insist on to keep the insurance premiums down. Events can apply for special permission to dispense with the bogey time (usually only granted to International status events) but then the insurance premium is substantially higher.

[N.O.T]

British autism at its finest... what a joke.

[Nornbugger]

I still don't understand what does it mean. I have never seen something like that. What's the purpose?

It is a time based on average speed that is taken as the fastest allowed stage time on UK rallies, we've had them for a long time, I seem to remember that on the 86 Ulster Rally a number of competitors equalled or beat it for the first few stages.

The 2013 MSA Yearbook states that “if the stage is wholly on a sealed surface, no Competitor should be able to achieve an average speed of more than 75mph” [R28.1.1.] and “if the stage is run partly or wholly on unsealed surfaces, no Competitor should be able to achieve an average speed of more than 65mph.” [R28.2.2.] A crew cannot set a Stage Time which has a quicker average speed than this.

[Simmi]

Instant facepalm when I saw this on SS1. Bogey times have no business being in an event of this calibre. Again evidence that the individual event organisers need a bit of help from the series/promoters to iron out these issues.

I think the series has grown quicker than a lot of people were ready for and it needs sorting out next year if it's to progress.

[Mirek]

Thanks, that's very strange rule and in my opinion pretty unfair one. We have also a rule about maximum average speed (it shall be for safety) but it only states that the same stage can not be run in the second loop and further in the next years. The times still count though as the crews worked (and risked) quite a lot to achieve them.

[Martin Liddle]

It is a time based on average speed that is taken as the fastest allowed stage time on UK rallies, we've had them for a long time, I seem to remember that on the 86 Ulster Rally a number of competitors equalled or beat it for the first few stages.
I have been involved in UK Rallying for more than fifty years and bogey times have been used for all that time on the vast majority of events.



The 2013 MSA Yearbook states that “if the stage is wholly on a sealed surface, no Competitor should be able to achieve an average speed of more than 75mph” [R28.1.1.] and “if the stage is run partly or wholly on unsealed surfaces, no Competitor should be able to achieve an average speed of more than 65mph.” [R28.2.2.] A crew cannot set a Stage Time which has a quicker average speed than this.

Average speeds were raised by 5mph for unsealed surfaces in 2015.

[Martin Liddle]

Again evidence that the individual event organisers need a bit of help from the series/promoters to iron out these issues.

Organisers are supported by a Sporting Consultant from IMS with extensive experience of WRC organisation.

[Mirek]

Organisers are supported by a Sporting Consultant from IMS with extensive experience of WRC organisation.

What does it change on the fact that it's pretty stupid? In this particular case the crews fought hard for exactly nothing on two out of four stages.

[Martin Liddle]

What does it change on the fact that it's pretty stupid? In this particular case the crews fought hard for exactly nothing on two out of four stages.
I was replying to a specific point about organisers receiving support from the series promoters. I have never liked the bogey time system but organisers are hard pressed enough financially in the UK without an increase in insurance premiums.

[Mirek]

Thanks for the reply. Still I think that it's possible to find a more fair way to solve the issue and in my opinion it is necessary to do so as the cars get faster and faster every year.

[Andre Oliveira]

So, if all beat boggie stupid time, Evans never will win this rally f.e. The faster can't win time to others.

[Martin Liddle]

Still I think that it's possible to find a more fair way to solve the issue and in my opinion it is necessary to do so as the cars get faster and faster every year.

So propose a solution that will not increase the costs for organisers; yes the problem can be solved by throwing money at it but with the threatened increase in Welsh Forestry charges, which if it goes through will more than likely spread to the whole UK, the sport is in already in crisis in the UK. Not to mention the number of organisers quitting the sport because the work load imposed by the new safety regime has become too much for them.

[Martin Liddle]

So, if all beat boggie stupid time, Evans never will win this rally f.e. The faster can't win time to others.
At the current moment there are 46 competitors classified and none of them are tied. Having anyone beat the bogey time is highly unsatisfactory for competitors and organisers but sometimes miscalculations occur.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Why didnt they have someone test these stages and if they are very fast just put a couple of haybale chicanes in... I 've seen this done on many occaisions.

[Mirek]

So propose a solution that will not increase the costs for organisers; yes the problem can be solved by throwing money at it but with the threatened increase in Welsh Forestry charges, which if it goes through will more than likely spread to the whole UK, the sport is in already in crisis in the UK. Not to mention the number of organisers quitting the sport because the work load imposed by the new safety regime has become too much for them.

I admitt I don't know how insurance is done in UK rallies but the issue will only get bigger and bigger. The cars will be faster every year. That's simple fact and the system must count with that. There is no other way because insisting on this system leads to a farce which we see here now. I am sorry to say that but it's not a rally wort following anymore.

Here in CZ there is a fixed maximum average speed given by ASN for safety reasons and if that is reached by at least three drivers or by at least one non-priority driver the stage is canceled for the second run and must be modified or replaced for next edition. The achieved times are still counted even if they are over the allowed average speed simply because cutting what's faster is unfair and ruins the sporting side of the event. One of the results of this system is those damned chicanes but it's still better to have some chicanes in stage than no stage at all.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Report coming now that Ahlin's SS4 time is incorrect and he's likely still leading !

[Simmi]

A couple of tweets from the BRC:

1/2 We share the frustration of fans, drivers and teams but the Bogey issue is out of our hands. #BRC

2/2 The UK legislation allows a max average speed of 70mph on gravel rallies. This is not a BRC issue but legislation of this country. #BRC

I'll duck out of the discussion as I'm confident I don't really know what I'm talking about. Just a shame it couldn't have been anticipated and changes made prior to the event.

[Martin Liddle]

Here in CZ there is a fixed maximum average speed given by ASN for safety reasons and if that is reached by at least three drivers or by at least one non-priority driver the stage is canceled for the second run and must be modified or replaced for next edition. The achieved times are still counted even if they are over the allowed average speed simply because cutting what's faster is unfair and ruins the sporting side of the event. One of the results of this system is those damned chicanes but it's still better to have some chicanes in stage than no stage at all.
That sounds like a reasonable system. What is the average speed specified by the ASN and how often is the second running of stages cancelled?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

DMack:
It's a rally organiser issue, they are aware of the rules and should plan the stages to suit. https://t.co/1AJyJyfzmG

[Mirek]

That sounds like a reasonable system. What is the average speed specified by the ASN and how often is the second running of stages cancelled?

It's 120 km/h and we have only asphalt events (it used to be 130 km/h but it was lowered as a result of the crisis with several deadly accidents several years a go). If I remember right two or three stages were canceled over the 2015 season within both the national championship and the rallysprint series.


DMack:
It's a rally organiser issue, they are aware of the rules and should plan the stages to suit. https://t.co/1AJyJyfzmG

That's true but the issue is that the rule doesn't penalize the organizer for selecting unsuitable stage but the crews instead and in the same time it makes not much for the safety. Hiding the real time doesn't make the crews magically slow down. They keep driving as fast as they can and the only result of all this is that the risk they take is for nothing.

[AndyRAC]

Instant facepalm when I saw this on SS1. Bogey times have no business being in an event of this calibre. Again evidence that the individual event organisers need a bit of help from the series/promoters to iron out these issues.

I think the series has grown quicker than a lot of people were ready for and it needs sorting out next year if it's to progress.

IMS are running/promoting the BRC - then surely they should have a dedicated team who organise the events; the local organising club just add expertise for 'their' event. Time the BRC was 'centralised'; every event should be similar, rather than the disparate series of events we have now. Where is the YouTube coverage like on the CoI??

[Martin Liddle]

It's 120 km/h and we have only asphalt events (it used to be 130 km/h but it was lowered as a result of the crisis with several deadly accidents several years a go). If I remember right two or three stages were canceled over the 2015 season within both the national championship and the rallysprint series.
Ok 120 km/h is essentially the same as the 75mph now allowed in the UK for sealed surface events. I don't suppose the crews lower down the field who can't achieve the speeds of the leading crews are happy to lose stage mileage.



That's true but the issue is that the rule doesn't penalize the organizer for selecting unsuitable stage but the crews instead and in the same time it makes not much for the safety.

The organisers get penalised by the criticism from the affected crews and the adverse publicity.



Hiding the real time doesn't make the crews magically slow down. They keep driving as fast as they can and the only result of all this is that the risk they take is for nothing.
I agree with you.

[Martin Liddle]

IMS are running/promoting the BRC - then surely they should have a dedicated team who organise the events; the local organising club just add expertise for 'their' event.

So who foots the bill for a full time paid organising team?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Elfyn Evans: 'Whoever said 'it's about taking part' was obviously talking about this rally!'

[Simmi]

So three more stages tomorrow, and more potential for bogey times to be beaten according to Dmack, per conversations with the organisers. So basically a complete farce and a huge oversight by someone. Simply saying "those are the rules, we can't do anything about them" isn't good enough.

If you know the problem you should take steps to combat it.

[MrJan]

That's true but the issue is that the rule doesn't penalize the organizer for selecting unsuitable stage but the crews instead and in the same time it makes not much for the safety. Hiding the real time doesn't make the crews magically slow down. They keep driving as fast as they can and the only result of all this is that the risk they take is for nothing.

The volunteers that organise the event don't want this to happen, the crews don't want it to happen and the spectators don't want it to happen. Unfortunately mistakes get made and an organising team can only take a best guess at the likely speed of the stage. I suspect that in this case they're using bogey times based on previous runnings of the stage which haven't been an issue and simply didn't allow enough contingency for how quick the BRC boys would be this year.

I think people also need to remember the position we're in WRT the BRC. The last time it had genuinely quick drivers in quick cars must be getting on for a decade ago, before the stupid Group N regs and then the 2WD stuff all came in. Simply put, people aren't used to a top level British championship attracting properly quick drivers from overseas.

[Mirek]

Fair enough, still the sooner the rule is changed the better.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Statement from the organisers:

http://www.pirellicarlislerally.co.uk/statement-from-the-organisers/

[Simmi]

Statement from the organisers:

http://www.pirellicarlislerally.co.uk/statement-from-the-organisers/

As close as you can get to saying sorry without actually apologizing.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Doesn't sound too good for tomorrow's stages either...

[RS]

What a joke.

Just when the BRC was actually getting good they go and shoot themselves in the foot.

I can't believe the organisers can be that cash strapped. There is enough money in the sport to buy and run all these R5 cars suddenly.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

SS6 Bogey time beaten.. :(

[AndyRAC]

So who foots the bill for a full time paid organising team?

Well it's got to be IMS - they're hardly short of cash. If they want to be involved and run the BRC, then do it properly!

They seem to be saying it's not their fault about the bogeys; if it's their series, then they should have more of a role in each event.

Sadly, the event has become a farce.

[Simmi]

Congrats to Ahlin. After Evans' problem I think he would have been the rally winner regardless of bogey times. I think he might even have been quickest through SS1. Not sure about the other two lost stages. But it still leaves a very sour taste in the mouth. Glad I went to the previous two rounds and not this one.

Disappointing oversight and I stand by my original post that the organisers need more high level help on these events. The fans in the stages certainly aren't a consideration this year, so you'd better make doubly sure the competitors are happy.

[Nornbugger]

Congrats to Ahlin. After Evans' problem I think he would have been the rally winner regardless of bogey times. I think he might even have been quickest through SS1. Not sure about the other two lost stages. But it still leaves a very sour taste in the mouth. Glad I went to the previous two rounds and not this one.

Disappointing oversight and I stand by my original post that the organisers need more high level help on these events. The fans in the stages certainly aren't a consideration this year, so you'd better make doubly sure the competitors are happy.

As a spectator Simmi what you'd have been watching would have been exactly the same.

Seems a few 'knowledgeable' folk on here, mybe you could offer some of your time to help organise?
I've done it and won't be doing anymore, its hard work and outside your immediate team its totally thankless.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

As well as the rally win Fredrik Aahlin leads the BRC after playing his 'joker'. Ahlin 65 with Evans second with 60 points.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

SS6 - Elfyn Evans completed in 5.28.1, the nominal time given to him was 5.52.0. Nearly 24 seconds faster over 6.83 miles !

[Martin Liddle]

Congrats to Ahlin. After Evans' problem I think he would have been the rally winner regardless of bogey times. I think he might even have been quickest through SS1. Not sure about the other two lost stages.
Evans was significantly quicker than Ahlin on the other two stages were the bogey was beaten but Ahlin would still have won. Without bogeys Evans would been second rather than third but the rest of the top five would be unchanged.


Disappointing oversight and I stand by my original post that the organisers need more high level help on these events.
They had the support of a WRC Clerk of the Course and a WRC Deputy Clerk of the Course; what level of support do you envisage?

[EightGear]

SS6 - Elfyn Evans completed in 5.28.1, the nominal time given to him was 5.52.0. Nearly 24 seconds faster over 6.83 miles !
What a farce.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Shame for David Bogie, going off on SS5... was having a good run... :(

[Mirek]

They had the support of a WRC Clerk of the Course and a WRC Deputy Clerk of the Course; what level of support do you envisage?

I would suggest some common sense.

Also I have to say that I find the limit 65 mph as way too low for modern cars and tyres. From the observation all around the world it's very clear that asphalt events are way more dangerous than gravel ones and trying to keep the average speed on gravel so low isn't really necessary.

[Martin Liddle]

Also I have to say that I find the limit 65 mph as way too low for modern cars and tyres. From the observation all around the world it's very clear that asphalt events are way more dangerous than gravel ones and trying to keep the average speed on gravel so low isn't really necessary.
The average used was increased from the start of 2015 and is now 70mph and I have checked the calculations for the Pirelli and they are correct at 70mph.

[J4MIE]

I would suggest some common sense.

Also I have to say that I find the limit 65 mph as way too low for modern cars and tyres. From the observation all around the world it's very clear that asphalt events are way more dangerous than gravel ones and trying to keep the average speed on gravel so low isn't really necessary.

I probably agree, however, if an incident was to take place and you were forced to answer questions in court would you be suitably qualified to give that answer?

Would anyone be?

If an insurer insists on something being done in order to cover an event, then you have to do it.

[Mirek]

The issue with rallying is that the roads are natural. You can't just make them significantly slower. In the same time the cars and tyres get faster and faster. The negotiations between the national authority and the insurance companies shall always consider the reality. It doesn't help anyone to live in some outer space and hope that the organizers will somehow cope with what You define even if that is very hard to achieve.

For sure we can blame the organizers for not being able to build the route in such a way that it fits the regulations. But was that even possible? How many stages would hit the bogey time during the WRC event in Wales? Are they more dangerous than those in Pirelli rally?

There are countries where the average speed on gravel hits even 90 mph and they run such stages even in WRC/ERC (Finland, Estonia, Latvia for example). It's mainly given by the geography and there's not much You can do about it. That's why the limits were canceled in WRC events. The stage needs to be inspected by experienced people but nobody cares about the average speed anymore as the easiest way to bring speed down is to put a hell of chicanes on the stage. Nobody likes them and they aren't always good for the safety (we have quite a lot of accidents in chicanes by the way).

Enough drivel from me. Even if we consider the limit as necessary the rules shall be made that way that they don't ruin the event from the sporting point of view and that they actually do something for safety. Bogey times aren't a good solution for neither of the two points of view.

[the sniper]

What a shame. Frankly it's a miracle that the BRC is doing so well when it has so many obstacles in its way to making a recovery... Looking at the difference between the bogey time and the quickest times, surely they'd need to use an unreasonable number of chicanes to slow them down enough for the bogey time to clearly not become a factor in play? If there's any respect for the sport I think they must bite the bullet, they're going to have to run it as an International event, apply for the speed dispensation on the insurance and pay the price if necessary. Here though IMS must step in to assist, as the rally organisers/competitors can not be expected to do everything for the BRC! At the end of the day, the BRC is their 'product' to invest in. Avoiding shambles like we've seen this weekend should be their top priority!

I can accept the reasons for us spectators being forced out of the sport, I can appreciate the realities of why these rallies have to be embarrassingly short nowadays, but surely there's enough money and common sense to be found in this sport that a small but significant competition can avoid being undermined by what is, essentially, a senseless box ticking exercise?

As for the rally, congratulations to Ahlin. I'd be interested to know why he chose to use his joker here though? It certainly worked out for him, but as far as I can see he had no prior experience of the stages in 'Killer Kielder'! Also I've got to say I'm surprised and impressed by Matthew Wilson. Obviously he had a good car under him, but having been out of rallying for so long and with much of his time in WRC being spent in what N.O.T might describe as the 'useless dog' class, I didn't expect him to show so well here! While he owes us nothing, I'd like to see him do BRC for a couple of seasons with these kind of performances to somewhat redeem his name in the sport. I imagine he'll be going back to doing business in M-Sport though unfortunately.

Even with the timing shambles, I'm still looking forward to TV highlights. It'll be good to see all these fast cars on the Kielder stages.

[Rallyper]

Wilson doing testing work all the time, if I´m not wrong. Should give him best practise. Åhlin well worth victory, which btw seems not give him much comments or credit. I don´t know why? Bcs he´s not english...?

but now I must ask - what´s that all about bogey times? Are the BRC not allowed to have rallies in which stages must be ran under 65 mph in average? If so it´s a joke. On gravel that is.

Have a look at Finland, that´s my only comment.

Or anyone explain to me if there are any other views on this matter.

[Martin Liddle]

but now I must ask - what´s that all about bogey times? Are the BRC not allowed to have rallies in which stages must be ran under 65 mph in average?
The events are not running as International events but as UK National A events. The specified average speed for a National A event on unsealed roads is 70 mph not 65 mph as you state. The roads in Kielder that the Pirelli Rally was using are particularly fast for UK forests. I am sure the event organisers and IMS (the championship promoters) will be doing all they can to make sure the situation does not arise again.

[RS]

Wilson doing testing work all the time, if I´m not wrong. Should give him best practise. Åhlin well worth victory, which btw seems not give him much comments or credit. I don´t know why? Bcs he´s not english...?

I didn't even look at the results because of this farce with the bogey times.

[Rallyper]

I didn't even look at the results because of this farce with the bogey times.

Why is it a farse? Does the times not count on stages over 70mph in average - and if so, how many was that?

[Mirek]

Yes, You can't score an official time better than the bogey time. This time it affected 3 of 7 stages with up to 13 competitors per stage (SS6).

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Åhlin well worth victory, which btw seems not give him much comments or credit. I don´t know why? Bcs he´s not english...?



Maybe not so much praise for Åhlin as Evans was actually the fastest on all the 'live' stages, all except SS3 where he got a puncture and lost the rally ...

[Rallyper]

well, that´s rallying, isn´t it.

[Andre Oliveira]

The faster didn't won.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

well, that´s rallying, isn´t it.

But half of your stage times not counting isn't...

[Martin Liddle]

The faster didn't won.
Ahlin had a total time lower than Evans even if the actual time taken is used so yes the fastest did win.

[b3637853]

At first I couldn't understand what is going on there. Are Brits living in medieval times? Speed limits on a RALLY? Whole Europe is laughing at them.
And we don't know if fastest didn't win. I think Evans would make time up in normal circumstances.

[MrJan]

Jesus! People are far more outraged about this than they need to be. It's a balls up, they've acknowledged it was a balls up and we'll now have some shitty little chicanes thrown in to more of the quick stages to keep the speed down. I also can't believe how difficult it is for some people to understand that this is a REQUIREMENT of the insurance.

Yes it's a pain that bogey times exist, but it's not exactly a new feature of rallying and is sadly a necessary evil (either we have the average speed limits or we have no rally, it's as simple as that). Okay so other countries do it differently, but the British Rally Championship wouldn't be the BRC if it ran in Finland would it?! So for as long as the BRC is run in Britain it will fall under the MSA banner, which means it has the MSA insurance, which means that bogey times will continue to exist.

[Andre Oliveira]

Organizers should avoid that issue. Simple.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Elfyn Evans:
“It’s not been a good weekend as the puncture ruined any chance of the win but second was on the cards if the event had been longer. The bogey times really effected the weekend not allowing us to claw back the time but Fredrik drove brilliantly and deserves the win."

[AndyRAC]

Punctures are a part of rallying, so that's just bad luck. But having a significant portion of the already limited stage mileage not counting is pretty poor. I can think of plenty of other sports were the participants/ media, etc would demand answers and action.

[b3637853]

Jesus! People are far more outraged about this than they need to be. It's a balls up, they've acknowledged it was a balls up and we'll now have some shitty little chicanes thrown in to more of the quick stages to keep the speed down. I also can't believe how difficult it is for some people to understand that this is a REQUIREMENT of the insurance.

Yes it's a pain that bogey times exist, but it's not exactly a new feature of rallying and is sadly a necessary evil (either we have the average speed limits or we have no rally, it's as simple as that). Okay so other countries do it differently, but the British Rally Championship wouldn't be the BRC if it ran in Finland would it?! So for as long as the BRC is run in Britain it will fall under the MSA banner, which means it has the MSA insurance, which means that bogey times will continue to exist.

Maybe not outraged, but if look at it from the outside it is just ridiculous. I know that rules are rules, but maybe some people need to rethink regulations.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Couple of nice videos showing the modern and historic's in action...

https://youtu.be/h1-QkJKowh8

https://youtu.be/vX7Y-B30Ymw

[Fast Eddie WRC]

More chicane's ? Hmmm...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ChX3hCUW0AEH3e3.jpg

[MrJan]

Organizers should avoid that issue. Simple.

Simple? Do you really think that trying to guess the average speed of a field of top level drivers through say 10 miles of forest track is easy? Perhaps you should offer your expert services to the organising team (many of whom will be volunteers, quite possibly without even covering expenses) for next season.


I know that rules are rules, but maybe some people need to rethink regulations.

Are you being deliberately obtuse? If insurance wants average speed to be capped then the regulations have to operate within that, they can rethink the Blue Book until the end of days, but it won't change the fact that the MSA won't be able to get insurance cover or it will be prohibitively expensive.

[N.O.T]

Trying to reason with British autism is a lost war...

[EightGear]

Do the insurance companies want those stupid bogey times (which I heard about for the first time in my life this past weekend)? Is that their 'solution?' Or did the MSA/the organisers/whoever else come up with that idea?

I think nobody in here is denying the organisers can just ignore the rules, but there are a lot more sensible and effective ways to enforce lower average speeds than by using bogey times.

[Martin Liddle]

Do the insurance companies want those stupid bogey times (which I heard about for the first time in my life this past weekend)? Is that their 'solution?'

Yes (or at least when I have asked MSA representatives that is certainly what I have been told.


Or did the MSA/the organisers/whoever else come up with that idea?

I know enough organisers to be confident in saying that organisers hate bogey times just as much as competitors (and they also hate chicanes).


I think nobody in here is denying the organisers can just ignore the rules, but there are a lot more sensible and effective ways to enforce lower average speeds than by using bogey times.
So please tell us about other solutions (but keep in mind that the Forestry Commission only allow a much more restricted choice of roads these days compared to the past)?

[EightGear]

So please tell us about other solutions (but keep in mind that the Forestry Commission only allow a much more restricted choice of roads these days compared to the past)?

I believe Mirek summed up some better solutions which are used in CZ. Cancelling the second pass.

But OK, it's not like there would be much milage left in UK rallies these days if a stage gets cancelled.

[b3637853]

Are you being deliberately obtuse? If insurance wants average speed to be capped then the regulations have to operate within that, they can rethink the Blue Book until the end of days, but it won't change the fact that the MSA won't be able to get insurance cover or it will be prohibitively expensive.

I just stated that people who created the rule about speed limit in rally should get some sense. Obviously organisers have to obey the rules as rally couldn't take place. But just look at this from the outside. What If I told you there is a rally organised somewhere and the drivers can't use 5th gear. Ridiculous isn't it?

[Martin Liddle]

I believe Mirek summed up some better solutions which are used in CZ. Cancelling the second pass.

It is an interesting solution but it seems to me that it makes a small number of competitors at the front of the field happy but if a stage second run is cancelled then the majority of the competitors who couldn't get close to the bogey are unhappy.

[Nornbugger]

Trying to reason with British autism is a lost war...

I think it's clear to all who displays the autistic traits.

[Nornbugger]

I just stated that people who created the rule about speed limit in rally should get some sense. Obviously organisers have to obey the rules as rally couldn't take place. But just look at this from the outside. What If I told you there is a rally organised somewhere and the drivers can't use 5th gear. Ridiculous isn't it?


Personally I think the ridiculous thing is the lack of understanding for the rules in the sport by its fans, and more so the harsh attitude to a small group of people who gave up their time to organise this event and got it wrong. Get over yourselves guys cause one thing you can be sure of is that the organisers will still be feeling the humiliation of what happened at the weekend long after you've all moved on to something new. It's a shame what happened but as far as I can see the only person really affected by it all was Elfyn Evans who lost 2nd place and a joint lead in the BRC.

[MrJan]

Do the insurance companies want those stupid bogey times (which I heard about for the first time in my life this past weekend)? Is that their 'solution?' Or did the MSA/the organisers/whoever else come up with that idea?

I don't know for sure, however I believe that the insurers would want some mitigation to keep speeds down.

In regards to more effective ways of lowering speeds, remember that choice of what stages can be used is increasingly limited by land owners, so sometimes all that's available is quick stuff and the simplest way to reduce speeds on that is to insert chicanes. As you say stage miles are already heavily limited for a lot of events, one of the downsides of being a tiny island without huge swathes of forest to play in.


Trying to reason with British autism is a lost war...

A bit like reasoning with you....also it would be nice if you didn't compare some trivial motorsport regulations with a serious mental illness.


I just stated that people who created the rule about speed limit in rally should get some sense

Take it up with the insurance industry then, don't start complaining about the volunteers (that's in bold because I don't think people realise it enough) that organised the event. The whole point of what we're saying is that the regulation had to be created in order for any rally in the UK to get the insurance required for it to run. What's ridiculous is that supposedly well informed fans aren't clever enough to understand it.

[Mirek]

It is an interesting solution but it seems to me that it makes a small number of competitors at the front of the field happy but if a stage second run is cancelled then the majority of the competitors who couldn't get close to the bogey are unhappy.

Dear Martin, I believe the whole thing shall be about safety. Hiding the real time but actually running the stage makes nothing for the safety at all. Moreover it means the risk the crews take on such "unsafe stage" is for nothing. Cancelation of such stage is for sure radical but it's fair and safe.

[Rally Power]

The bogie times on this event were a mess, but the important thing is to learn the lesson and avoid having this trouble again on the series.

BRC has fulfilled rally fans expectations. Entry lists are amazing, just like the majority of the chosen events routes and there’s also a nice coverage on the media.

The championship revamp it’s great for British and Global rallying. It’d be a shame wasting the hard work with such easy to fix issues. Having more chicanes or to choose slightly slower routes can’t be that hard.

Btw, Ahlin is giving a nice fight to Evans and Wilson can become a new outsider, besides Bogie or Cave. McCormack speed in the old S2000 Fabia is also amazing (he’s he really using Khumo’s?). Many interesting stuff to keep following BRC.

[Andre Oliveira]

Mirek said the essential: Hide the time don't cut the "risk"

[Rallyper]

No problem with bogey times. Just make a rule saying the cars only can use bicycle tyres (eg. standard 155x15) adn of course try to use farmers transit roads for stages.

[b3637853]

Dear Martin, I believe the whole thing shall be about safety. Hiding the real time but actually running the stage makes nothing for the safety at all. Moreover it means the risk the crews take on such "unsafe stage" is for nothing. Cancelation of such stage is for sure radical but it's fair and safe.

Agree. With this kind of regulations the rally was not safe nor fair about results. And it is not the case of understanding the "bogey times". It's not a rocket science. This whole thread is saying that rally fans don't want rallies to be forced to conduct this way.

[Allyc85]

Average speeds might be the least of peoples worries in this country if Natural Resources Wales has it's own way...

https://www.msauk.org/Open-letter-from-the-MSA-Chief-Executive

[AndyRAC]

Personally speaking, this a bigger issue for the national/ club events held in Wales; as there are a lot of events that use the Welsh forests.
Believe it or not, RallyGB doesn't have to be held in Wales - in fact the MSA should be moving it around, and trying to grow the sport instead of taking the short term gain/ Welsh Assembly cash.

It has to be said, the sport in the UK seems to be on borrowed time; forest allowance being cut by the year - and the closed road rallying solution seems to have stagnated.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

I mentioned this problem last week in the general BRC 2016 thread but there was no response...

[Fast Eddie WRC]

In other news, DMACK Tyres threaten to pull-out of the BRC over 'Bogeygate' on the Pirelli Rally...

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Anyone know when the highlights of the Pirelli are going to be shown.. or have I missed them ??

[MrJan]

Next week (14th) at 7:30 on C4.

[Rally Power]

Next week (14th) at 7:30 on C4.

Today on MotorsTV (19.20 GMT).