'Celebrity' Criminals

[ShiftingGears]

I was wondering if any other country besides Australia has a 'celebrity' criminal like Mark "Chopper" Reid?

[NinjaMaster]

All the music "Idols" are celebrity criminals. They need to be held accountable for their heinous crimes against music. :D

[BeansBeansBeans]

I suppose Charles Bronson (no, not that one) is the closest thing we have to Chopper.

[BDunnell]

Then, of course, there have been the likes of the Kray twins, Ronnie Biggs and 'Mad' Frankie Fraser, who many people (including Barbara Windsor) regard as lovable rogues.

[Azumanga Davo]

Running 2nd in Australia would be Neville 'bloody' Bartos... :D

[oily oaf]

Then, of course, there have been the likes of the Kray twins, Ronnie Biggs and 'Mad' Frankie Fraser, who many people (including Barbara Windsor) regard as lovable rogues.

Hey you forgot Frank "The Mad Axeman" Mitchell erstwhile friend and ultimately another victim of The Twin's displeasure.

I vividly remember my old nan, a wonderful old East End character, speaking in hushed reverent tones about, Jack Spot, The Twins and other members of The Firm in general.
She used to swear blind that during their reign throughout the fifties and sixties petty criminals such as burglars and muggers (she called 'em "footpads") would be "dealt with" in such a vigorous and painful manner as to make them almost extinct in East London at the time.
Actually she may have had a point ;)

Behind the glamorous, largely media induced image however where two extremely violent and in the case of Ronnie Kray psychotic men who would think nothing of "striping" a fellow drinker or associate with a razor or blade for any percieved sleight or lack of respect.

Ronnie Biggs on the other hand was a fairly small time "Peterman" or safe blower who was unfortunate enough to have had his collar felt after the notorious Great Train Robbery during which he played a very minor role but was nevertheless sentenced to an outrageous 30 stretch which to British society's eternal shame he is still serving to this very day despite the fact that he has suffered a series of severe strokes rendering him little more than a vegetable.
A threat to society? I tend to think not.
Free the old boy now and let him spend his remaining days with his family for Gawd's sake.

Celebrity criminals? Two words. Michael Barrymore ;)

[Drew]

Dave Courtney? He's been on a few programme recently, although I think he's given up the gangland thing

[Hazell B]

Dave Courtney makes me sick.

A man who's now earning cash for being an ex-con, thug and general waste of oxygen. If he's on anything on TV I simply switch off.

[tony_yeboah]

we also have jack the ripper!!!

other serial murderers get celebrity status based upon the media interest and euphoria surrounding them, such as ian huntley, peter sutcliffe (Yorkshire ripper) fred and rose west, and shipman.

and in america you have ted bundy.

Whats worse is that these types of people feed of the media attention and know that the more horrid they are, the more known they become until they reach 'legendary' status.

[BDunnell]

John McVicar is another example of that (with reference to Dave Courtney as mentioned above). He is often described as a 'crime expert' or similar. The truth is that he is a former armed robber.

[tony_yeboah]

regarding gansters becoming famous rather than serial murderers, you have al capone and henry hill, these people have become famous, especially henry hill with the film Goodfellas

[tony_yeboah]

celebrity criminal = snoop dogg

[tony_yeboah]

WOW - THAT WAS MY 1000TH POST BY THE WAY! :d

[Hazell B]

tony, I think you're confusing the criminal who's well known, with the criminal who's seeking to be a well known TV personality. Courtney, for example, appears on TV as Mr Cheeky Chappie who's 'done a bit here and there' while the Jack the Ripper style fame isn't glamourising crime at all.

[BDunnell]

In the reception area of a nearby B&B, I was rather staggered the other day to see a leaflet advertising Jack the Ripper-themed tours of London. This got me thinking about why it should be OK to look on the period of Jack the Ripper with some degree of, I suppose, ghoulish affection (for want of a better phrase) rather than the horror those crimes would induce nowadays.

[tony_yeboah]

right, i thought you meant criminals who have in a way become celebrities because of their horrific acts

[Hazell B]

This got me thinking about why it should be OK to look on the period of Jack the Ripper with some degree of, I suppose, ghoulish affection (for want of a better phrase) rather than the horror those crimes would induce nowadays.


You mean like being into planes that were invented as instruments of war to kill thousands of people?
Or watching a war film, reading a book by a soldier or politician who had part in planning a conflict?

For pitty's sake, it's a tour that covers a long past series of incidents that we've all read books about, seen dramatised on TV and film and wondered about ourselves. What's so wrong with it? A Fred West tour would be wrong, but nothing from 1900 can be in the same league. Jack the Ripper gave birth to the twentieth century (or so he's claimed to have said) not 1999!

[BDunnell]

You mean like being into planes that were invented as instruments of war to kill thousands of people?
Or watching a war film, reading a book by a soldier or politician who had part in planning a conflict?

For pitty's sake, it's a tour that covers a long past series of incidents that we've all read books about, seen dramatised on TV and film and wondered about ourselves. What's so wrong with it? A Fred West tour would be wrong, but nothing from 1900 can be in the same league. Jack the Ripper gave birth to the twentieth century (or so he's claimed to have said) not 1999!

I suppose what I am trying to ask is when the cut-off point between the crimes still being seen as awful and them being viewed as historical curiosities is. Will a Fred West tour, or a Yorkshire Ripper tour, be acceptable after the same interval? Somehow, I doubt it.

What this has got to do with my interest in aviation, I have no idea. My interest in aircraft is in no way connected to their military capabilities.

[tony_yeboah]

You mean like being into planes that were invented as instruments of war to kill thousands of people?
Or watching a war film, reading a book by a soldier or politician who had part in planning a conflict?


i think its a bit different than that. Those planes were designed to protect our country. Its not in the same context. Some people admire the beauty and craftmanship that goes in to building those planes.

I doubt anyone in there right mind would admire the actions of jack the ripper and feel his killing techniques were beautifully crafted

[LotusElise]

You mean like being into planes that were invented as instruments of war to kill thousands of people?
Or watching a war film, reading a book by a soldier or politician who had part in planning a conflict?

For pitty's sake, it's a tour that covers a long past series of incidents that we've all read books about, seen dramatised on TV and film and wondered about ourselves. What's so wrong with it? A Fred West tour would be wrong, but nothing from 1900 can be in the same league. Jack the Ripper gave birth to the twentieth century (or so he's claimed to have said) not 1999!

I've got a photo of myself somewhere, standing next to where one of the Ripper murders took place. I don't know why, it just seemed like a good idea at the time.

Has anyone mentioned Howard Marks yet?

[BDunnell]

Has anyone mentioned Howard Marks yet?

That's an interesting one. He stood for Parliament in one of the Norwich constituencies at the 1997 General Election, I seem to remember.

[Hazell B]

I suppose what I am trying to ask is when the cut-off point between the crimes still being seen as awful and them being viewed as historical curiosities is.
What this has got to do with my interest in aviation, I have no idea. My interest in aircraft is in no way connected to their military capabilities.

What I'm trying to say is that from 1885ish (I think Jack the Ripper was about then) to now is a little over 100 years. In another 100 years, maybe less, will war be looked upon as the saddest and most sick time on earth? Quite probably, or at least we can hope so.

The cut off is when we move clearly from one period of thinking to another I guess. In the Ripper's case, as he was never found, we don't have the usual link of a living person being related to the victims or murderer, but they're the general times when things become a little different in hind sight.

Fifty years after seemed about the time nobody much younger than twenty cared a deal about WW2 - and I've seen on this forum that those same people think we should mark 9/11 instead :s

[BDunnell]

What I'm trying to say is that from 1885ish (I think Jack the Ripper was about then) to now is a little over 100 years. In another 100 years, maybe less, will war be looked upon as the saddest and most sick time on earth? Quite probably, or at least we can hope so.

The cut off is when we move clearly from one period of thinking to another I guess. In the Ripper's case, as he was never found, we don't have the usual link of a living person being related to the victims or murderer, but they're the general times when things become a little different in hind sight.

Fifty years after seemed about the time nobody much younger than twenty cared a deal about WW2 - and I've seen on this forum that those same people think we should mark 9/11 instead :s

It's an interesting debate. Personally, I find the fascination that exists for Jack the Ripper rather ghoulish, because crimes of a similar magnitude still occur today, and the thought of them being viewed in the same way is somewhat unsettling.

As for the Second World War, I think the main thing is to remember it and know about it without being obsessed with it. The same goes for all forms of nostalgia, otherwise we will never move on.