Wrong type of wind?

[Robinho]

http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=39069

Rubens thinks that maybe Honda's problems stem form the wind tunnel, seeing as the gains in the tunnel are not finding their way into the circuit.

why not, its happened before with incorrectly calibrated wind tunnels, and it would go part of the way to explain why the team were so hopeful only to be dashed by the fact they'd made a lemon - could they have cocked it up in the tunnel? is the wind tunnel meaning they are going wrong with the improvements they are making?

or have they, as stated elsewhere, dug themselves a whole by losing Willis, Davidson, maybe even Richards and Villeneuve and hiring Nakamura and Fry etc and now don't have a clear idea how to build a fast car and are starting from scratch again?

[Valve Bounce]

I guess if it's not a full scale tunnel, then all sorts of air flow characteristics come into play.

Does Tochigi use another tunnel or the same tunnel?

Does Aguri have any access to a wind tunnel at all?

[ioan]

Does Aguri have any access to a wind tunnel at all?

Nah, they are using a farting machine! Or is it Honda using that one?!

[Valve Bounce]

Nah, they are using a farting machine! Or is it Honda using that one?!

Is this what they call dirty air? :D

[Easy Drifter]

Smelly anyway, something like the Honda.

[Mickey T]

Honda has both a full-sized wind tunnel and a half-scale one, plus access to the tunnel in Japan.
I had lunch with nick fry at the factory yesterday and he agrees there are significant aero problems, plus other issues that relate to the switch from Michelin to Bridgestone.
the aero problem, he says, relates to the size of variation in the movement of the aerodynamic centre of pressure between braking, static state cornering and acceleration.
while the percentage shift is small, the aero load placed on the car is massive, and makes huge differences in downforce and, therefore, grip levels.
there are detailed correlation differences in the tunnels that he admits are coming together now, because they involve complicated mathematics.
there will be new parts for Barcelona, more new parts for Canada then new parts again for france.

[Valve Bounce]

Honda has both a full-sized wind tunnel and a half-scale one, plus access to the tunnel in Japan.
I had lunch with nick fry at the factory yesterday and he agrees there are significant aero problems, plus other issues that relate to the switch from Michelin to Bridgestone.
the aero problem, he says, relates to the size of variation in the movement of the aerodynamic centre of pressure between braking, static state cornering and acceleration.
while the percentage shift is small, the aero load placed on the car is massive, and makes huge differences in downforce and, therefore, grip levels.
there are detailed correlation differences in the tunnels that he admits are coming together now, because they involve complicated mathematics.
there will be new parts for Barcelona, more new parts for Canada then new parts again for france.

Hey Mickey!! will any of the new parts be shared with Super Aguri? In fact, my question here is whether Super Aguri has access to any wind tunnels? Thanks.

[Ian McC]

Alas I have been known to suffer from the wrong kind of wind :uhoh:

[Hazell B]

Yes Ian, we know :p :

I'm going to ask a possible stupid question now, as the subject's up already.

Can a wind tunnel be set so that it apes a car following another one? I mean, the cars are more often than not behind another, so what's the point in wind tunnels (beyond the obvious) if they don't allow for that being the norm?

[Valve Bounce]

Now we are going to put apes in wind tunnels? what is F1 coming to? :p :

[PSfan]

Yes Ian, we know :p :

I'm going to ask a possible stupid question now, as the subject's up already.

Can a wind tunnel be set so that it apes a car following another one? I mean, the cars are more often than not behind another, so what's the point in wind tunnels (beyond the obvious) if they don't allow for that being the norm?

I don't think it would take to much more space, nor power to run a tunnel long enough to accomodate 2 cars, I would expect thats the case.

However I think the BMW/Sauber wind tunnel is a little special because its large enough to accomodate cars side by side as well...

[Easy Drifter]

But the ape drives for Toy!
Being silly aside, wind tunnels can not simulate all conditions such as turning and various crosswinds as well as uphill and downhill and bumps although they are getting much more advanced. Jumping kerbs is difficult to reproduce! Wind flow from another design is another problem.
The computer software is vitally important as is the ability to understand the data produced.
Williams had a software glitch a few years ago that was giving them false data. It took quite a while to isolate it and correct it.
Honda rotate their Japanese people on the team regularly but I do not know if this involves the staff dealing with the wind tunnel. If they do that could lead to confusion especially if new people do not understand racing and the speeds and forces being exerted. Ie: downforce at high speed.

[schmenke]

Now we are going to put apes in wind tunnels? what is F1 coming to? :p :

More monkey business in F1 :p :

[Mickey T]

No, Super Aguri don't use the honda tunnel as far as i know, but they will be getting honda's current gearbox fairly soon (they've been using last year's version)

[Hazell B]

Wind flow from another design is another problem.


That's the sort of thing I meant when I asked. I've wondered how they can possibly know or guess at the wind passage from a competitor's car and work out if their car can cope with it, for example, under breaking and turning.

[Valve Bounce]

No, Super Aguri don't use the honda tunnel as far as i know, but they will be getting honda's current gearbox fairly soon (they've been using last year's version)

No wind tunnel, and last year's car and last year's gearbox? How on earth does their driver beat the Team Honda cars?

[Valve Bounce]

That's the sort of thing I meant when I asked. I've wondered how they can possibly know or guess at the wind passage from a competitor's car and work out if their car can cope with it, for example, under breaking and turning.

Very difficult; I suspect that the windflow from the different designs would vary, especially under cornering conditions. My limited knowledge of fluid mechanics would indicate that they would have enough problems just solving the issues on one car.

[wedge]

No wind tunnel, and last year's car and last year's gearbox? How on earth does their driver beat the Team Honda cars?

That's the way it goes in F1 I'm afraid.

In theory the previous year's car should be quicker than the current car, but things can go wrong.

Ferrari used to start the season with the preceding year's cars and it was still dominant. All of a sudden they had a blip in 2005 when that year's Ferrari was totally uncompetitive for a WDC.

And remember the infamous McLaren MP4/19D in 2004? The original MP4/19 was quick but easily fell apart because of Adrian Newey pushing the envelope in car design.

[wedge]

That's the sort of thing I meant when I asked. I've wondered how they can possibly know or guess at the wind passage from a competitor's car and work out if their car can cope with it, for example, under breaking and turning.

The cars are designed to run in 'clean' air because that's how the downforce is generated.

The so called 'dirty' turbulent air does very little to generate downforce, hence the understeer generated in a racing car when one car follows another.

[Valve Bounce]

That's the way it goes in F1 I'm afraid.

In theory the previous year's car should be quicker than the current car, but things can go wrong.

Ferrari used to start the season with the preceding year's cars and it was still dominant. All of a sudden they had a blip in 2005 when that year's Ferrari was totally uncompetitive for a WDC.

And remember the infamous McLaren MP4/19D in 2004? The original MP4/19 was quick but easily fell apart because of Adrian Newey pushing the envelope in car design.


Good point - why doesn't team Honda use last year's car until they sort out this year's car?

[janneppi]

Good point - why doesn't team Honda use last year's car until they sort out this year's car?

Wouldn't that break the same design rules Redbulls are supposed to be breaking?

[ioan]

Good point - why doesn't team Honda use last year's car until they sort out this year's car?

Gave it to SuperAguri who might not be willing to return it at the moment! ;)

Seriously, last year's design doesn't have to much development potential in it, while the new Honda has lot's of it (judging by the results at least :D ).

Problem is that the SAF1 guys can extract that little from almost nothing available while the Honda ones cant extract little from much more available.

Maybe they should exchange stuff between the two teams.

[Eyo]

Way to many brits in team Honda, it’s not Honda anymore. It’s Rover...

[Mickey T]

err, what nationality do you think dominates all the F1 teams, with the possible exceptions of Ferrari and STR?

renault's main base is in Enstone and populated by poms, williams and mclaren have long been full of soap-dodgers, Red Bull is basically the old Jaguar team (webber said he knew most of the faces, and his race weekend mechanics and engineers were the same guys who fettled his car during his jaguar career), so it's stacked with non-tubbers as well.

then there's super aguri which, like honda, is chock full of people who can't play cricket.

BMW and toyota are continental, but the staff levels are about half bathophobics.

and prodrive will be full of them as well.

[Eyo]

Well, I think when Honda was supplying engines in the late 80’ and early 90’ I have seen more Japanese engineers in the garage then I see today in the so called Honda team which supposed to be Japanese.
Don’t get me wrong I have no problem with any nationality, but Honda should be Japanese and I don’t car where the F1 started. That doesn’t mean no one else can do it.

[Valve Bounce]

err, what nationality do you think dominates all the F1 teams, with the possible exceptions of Ferrari and STR?

renault's main base is in Enstone and populated by poms, williams and mclaren have long been full of soap-dodgers, Red Bull is basically the old Jaguar team (webber said he knew most of the faces, and his race weekend mechanics and engineers were the same guys who fettled his car during his jaguar career), so it's stacked with non-tubbers as well.

then there's super aguri which, like honda, is chock full of people who can't play cricket.

BMW and toyota are continental, but the staff levels are about half bathophobics.

and prodrive will be full of them as well.

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooooooooooo the Poms are going to love you. :D

[Hazell B]

Naw, we tend to just laugh at convicts we've deported :p :

[F1John]

Good point - why doesn't team Honda use last year's car until they sort out this year's car?

but then they don't learn anything about this years car, without understanding the reasons why the car doesn't work they will not be able to design a new car for next season without possibly making the same mistakes again.

[Valve Bounce]

but then they don't learn anything about this years car, without understanding the reasons why the car doesn't work they will not be able to design a new car for next season without possibly making the same mistakes again.


Race last year's car, and get some good drivers to test this year's car plus R&D on it.

[aryan]

Good point - why doesn't team Honda use last year's car until they sort out this year's car?

They've already sold it to SA.

And if they hadn't, it wouldn't have made any sense either. They don't want to move 2-3 places from 15-16.

[nigelred5]

Because they are all running around the track wearing super Aguri logos. ;)

[Valve Bounce]

Because they are all running around the track wearing super Aguri logos. ;)

Well, that might be where the ptoblem is: this year's car looks like vomit, like some guys ate too much green and blue ice cream and then threw up on the cars. The first time I saw them, I couldn't believe it. Maybe this stuff makes the drivers car sick. :eek:

[ShiftingGears]

Hell they should add some yellow and pink so they can sell rainbow paddle-pops for a bit of extra $$$

[Garry Walker]

Does Aguri have any access to a wind tunnel at all?

Yes.