No farewells for the most "entertaining" driver that F1 has seen in this era???

[Jag_Warrior]

I am surprised. I am hurt. I am insulted. I am gobsmacked (not really - I just like saying that). But most of all, I am... happy that this talking chimp is gone!

An ode to Pastor Maldonado (http://www.theroar.com.au/2016/02/03/ode-pastor-maldonado/)

[jens]

At least Pastor has that one win to remember from his F1 career. Better than nothing I guess. Not many drivers reach that.

But to be honest, there is not much else to remember (fondly). Just loads of crashes.

[The Black Knight]

Not alone is Pastor one of the worst drivers to ever win a Grand Prix, but he was also probably the most dangerous. The entire F1 grid is safer without him. I'm just glad his F1 career ends without him causing a fatality. Hopefully he will never be seen in a F1 car again, he doesn't deserve it.

Good riddens to a bad and stupid egg!

[Tazio]

Ba bye! :wave::angel:

[jens]

Not alone is Pastor one of the worst drivers to ever win a Grand Prix, but he was also probably the most dangerous.

You have a point that Maldonado is perhaps the worst driver to win an F1 race... certainly at least in the last 30 years. I am unsure about the eras before that, there is some room for debate.

[Rollo]

You have a point that Maldonado is perhaps the worst driver to win an F1 race... certainly at least in the last 30 years. I am unsure about the eras before that, there is some room for debate.

Senna at the end of 6 seasons.

Maldonado - 95 starts - 1 win - 28 DNFs - 53 incidents.
Senna at - 95 starts - 20wins - 31 DNFs - 66 incidents.

This is inclusive of incidents that happened in practice, qualifying and during races.

[jens]

Senna at the end of 6 seasons.

Maldonado - 95 starts - 1 win - 28 DNFs - 53 incidents.
Senna at - 95 starts - 20wins - 31 DNFs - 66 incidents.

This is inclusive of incidents that happened in practice, qualifying and during races.

Interesting, though it was the era in which there were no 'limits' on components during race weekends. You could completely write off a car, and still race in a spare car. And from what I remember, drivers used to crash/spin or at least 'test the limits' during free practices quite a lot. I'd guess (far) more than nowadays.

[Robinho]

Senna at the end of 6 seasons.

Maldonado - 95 starts - 1 win - 28 DNFs - 53 incidents.
Senna at - 95 starts - 20wins - 31 DNFs - 66 incidents.

This is inclusive of incidents that happened in practice, qualifying and during races.
An extra 19 wins buys you a lot of credit. And let's face it, it's not like Senna didn't also have a reputation. Had Pastor been the equal or better to anyone for speed, and wrung ridiculous results out if average cars, we wouldn't be talking about his crashes. But he was a terrible combination of dangerous, crashy and really not actually that quick

[Bagwan]

I think Pastor is the ideal candidate for the "Driver who is quick on the day" award .

I have read reports that he was amazing that day .

[Nitrodaze]

Maldonano is a better driver than he displayed in 2014/5. A year out may be just the thing he needs to get his act together. Winning a GP in a car that was inferior to a Ferrari with Alonso in it, ahead of the Mclaren with Hamilton in it and a Redbull with Vettel in it, is not a trivial achievement. The last two seasons has not done Maldonado any favors.

[Starter]

Interesting, though it was the era in which there were no 'limits' on components during race weekends. You could completely write off a car, and still race in a spare car. And from what I remember, drivers used to crash/spin or at least 'test the limits' during free practices quite a lot. I'd guess (far) more than nowadays.
I am definitely not the fan of Senna that most are. Though fast, I thought he was a dangerous and unsportsman like driver. 66 incidents in 95 race weekends is a 69% rate - hardly the mark of the best driver. Could someone pull up the incident rate for a few others like Clark, Fangio, Stewart, etc. for comparison?

[AndyL]

I am definitely not the fan of Senna that most are. Though fast, I thought he was a dangerous and unsportsman like driver. 66 incidents in 95 race weekends is a 69% rate - hardly the mark of the best driver. Could someone pull up the incident rate for a few others like Clark, Fangio, Stewart, etc. for comparison?

Can it really be valid to compare accident rates from different eras? Back in the day, I'm sure there were sadly too many drivers who only ever had 1 accident.

[The Black Knight]

Maldonano is a better driver than he displayed in 2014/5. A year out may be just the thing he needs to get his act together. Winning a GP in a car that was inferior to a Ferrari with Alonso in it, ahead of the Mclaren with Hamilton in it and a Redbull with Vettel in it, is not a trivial achievement. The last two seasons has not done Maldonado any favors.

He's not really. I look at that weekend as a fluke where the car was just perfect and he drove reasonably well. You can't be as good as he appeared that weekend and then suddenly be as bad as he was for the remainder of his career. He's not better than what he displayed. He's not deserving of an F1 seat and he should never be allowed near a F1 circuit again.

[Nitrodaze]

He's not really. I look at that weekend as a fluke where the car was just perfect and he drove reasonably well. You can't be as good as he appeared that weekend and then suddenly be as bad as he was for the remainder of his career. He's not better than what he displayed. He's not deserving of an F1 seat and he should never be allowed near a F1 circuit again.

Well, Hulkenburg in a similar position a few years back, driving a Force India did not pull off a win. That's not to suggest that Hulkenburg is a bad driver or worst than Maldonado. Just simply that it takes a little more than luck to pull off a win with so many quality drivers on the grid. The swing in performance is typically a Maldonado temperament. Something he has struggled with for some time and has not seemed to get on top of yet. His showing in 2014 1nd 2015 is the worst expected of any driver without a doubt. But within that uglyness is a Fomula 1 race winning driver. Something you cannot take away from the guy. He is capable of better and it is a shame he has let himself and a lot of fans down.

[Starter]

Can it really be valid to compare accident rates from different eras? Back in the day, I'm sure there were sadly too many drivers who only ever had 1 accident.
I agree it would be a fairer measure if you can factor out the mechanical incidents and only count driver error and car to car contact, but I doubt that data is readily available. I also don't think the era makes much difference, but if it makes you feel better throw Schumi and Proust in there too.

[The Black Knight]

Well, Hulkenburg in a similar position a few years back, driving a Force India did not pull off a win. That's not to suggest that Hulkenburg is a bad driver or worst than Maldonado. Just simply that it takes a little more than luck to pull off a win with so many quality drivers on the grid. The swing in performance is typically a Maldonado temperament. Something he has struggled with for some time and has not seemed to get on top of yet. His showing in 2014 1nd 2015 is the worst expected of any driver without a doubt. But within that uglyness is a Fomula 1 race winning driver. Something you cannot take away from the guy. He is capable of better and it is a same he has let himself and a lot of fans down.

Being a race winning driver does not particularly mean you are a good one. He was lucky that weekend and that is it! He wasn't capable of more. If he had been capable of better then he would have managed it in four years of driving. Talent alone isn't enough. If you're a complete idiot, and he is, then your talent is wasted, because it's canceled out by the wrong mentality and that mentality renders you incapable of achieving more.

As for Hulk, I'm not convinced about him either. I don't see what others see in him. He impressed me once to get pole in Brazil, just like Maldonado impressed once.

[AndyL]

I agree it would be a fairer measure if you can factor out the mechanical incidents and only count driver error and car to car contact, but I doubt that data is readily available. I also don't think the era makes much difference, but if it makes you feel better throw Schumi and Proust in there too.

I wasn't really thinking about mechanical incidents. I was thinking drivers of past, more dangerous eras probably took fewer risks. I doubt any driver of Clark's or Fangio's eras had 53 crashes because they wouldn't have survived that long.

[Rollo]

I wasn't really thinking about mechanical incidents. I was thinking drivers of past, more dangerous eras probably took fewer risks. I doubt any driver of Clark's or Fangio's eras had 53 crashes because they wouldn't have survived that long.

This:
Jim Clark had only five accidents in his motor racing career? Someone? I don't have access to that sort of data back them.


Clark - 72 starts - 25 win - 23 DNFs - 3 incidents??

[jens]

That win by Maldonado was well-deserved and earnt on merit. No question about that.

But one impressive race in a career is not good enough. Many drivers can shine on odd occasion. You need at least a bit consistency to have a sustainable career.:)

As for Hülkenberg... Well yeah, he has not won a race. But on average his performance has been better, including far more good and decent drives, not to mention significantly less crashes.

[jens]

I am definitely not the fan of Senna that most are. Though fast, I thought he was a dangerous and unsportsman like driver. 66 incidents in 95 race weekends is a 69% rate - hardly the mark of the best driver. Could someone pull up the incident rate for a few others like Clark, Fangio, Stewart, etc. for comparison?

I wonder, what do these 66 incidents include. Because looking at races (I don't know about practices!) Senna wasn't THAT crash-prone, even if he had some incidents. He had lots of DNF-s, but mostly due to unreliable cars. The Lotus of 1985-87 was prone to running out of fuel before the chequered flag. And Senna had a pretty bad reliability in seasons like 1989 or 1992.

But that was a different era. Era in which cars were far more unreliable than today and could blow up regularly.

[Starter]

I wonder, what do these 66 incidents include. Because looking at races (I don't know about practices!) Senna wasn't THAT crash-prone, even if he had some incidents. He had lots of DNF-s, but mostly due to unreliable cars. The Lotus of 1985-87 was prone to running out of fuel before the chequered flag. And Senna had a pretty bad reliability in seasons like 1989 or 1992.

But that was a different era. Era in which cars were far more unreliable than today and could blow up regularly.
Exactly, that's why I said it would be more accurate if you could eliminate mechanical "issues" from the count. That could probably be done, but I'm not race wonk enough to spend the time and effort to do it.

I'll agree he was very fast. I do not agree that he was "great", which, IMO, would include the drivers who I mentioned above

[Rollo]

I wonder, what do these 66 incidents include. Because looking at races (I don't know about practices!) Senna wasn't THAT crash-prone, even if he had some incidents.

If you break a piece of car, say needing a nose cone replaced, then that's an incident. Especially early in his career, Senna was prone to spinning cars in Friday practice and breaking front wings. Maldonaldo's are similar; I read a lot of "Crashes into the barrier at Turn X by himself in Practice X."

[CNR]

only thing I can find is this list
http://en.espn.co.uk/f1/motorsport/page/3421.html

http://en.espn.co.uk/f1/motorsport/driver/457.html
"Emilio Giuseppe Farina
. But to many he was too reckless and in an era when the mortality rate among drivers was so high, that he was not one of the casualties was remarkable. When he did crash he refused to take the blame, always criticising the machinery, even though he was unwaveringly hard on his cars.
Read more at http://en.espnf1.com/alfaromeo/motorsport/driver/457.html#YPs8oluS9OugAsuK.99
desktop-lg
"
How did he make to to f1
http://en.espn.co.uk/f1/motorsport/driver/18827.html

"
Strengths and Weaknesses
He's undoubtedly quick - six wins in GP2 is a tough task no matter who your competitors are - but mistakes are still all too frequent. In F1 his mistakes were exposed so he might be better off knocking the edge off his speed to ensure consistent results.

Career High
Winning the Spanish Grand Prix and putting an end to Williams' eight-year victory drought.

Career Low
Taking out a marshal at Monaco while under yellow flags in the World Series by Renault. Wrecklessly launching Esteban Gutierrez into a frightening roll at the 2014 Bahrain Grand Prix also stands out.

Quotes
"When I was about three or four years old I said I wanted to race but I was too young, then when I reached the age of seven my father gave me a kart and we started from there."

"Sport should not be kept away from politics, it should be supported, like happens in Venezuela." President Hugo Chavez on supporting Maldonado

Read more at http://en.espnf1.com/lotus/motorsport/driver/18827.html#k9fW87F73b1DmKLj.99desktop-lg"

[CNR]

I agree it would be a fairer measure if you can factor out the mechanical incidents and only count driver error and car to car contact, but I doubt that data is readily available. I also don't think the era makes much difference, but if it makes you feel better throw Schumi and Proust in there too.

if somebody has the time to put a list together you could start with this
http://en.espn.co.uk/f1/motorsport/season/index.html
under race
"
Retirement

axle Gigi Villoresi ITA 38 Ferrari 63
oil leak Philippe Etancelin FRA 14 Talbot-Lago 36
accident José Froilán González ARG 2 Maserati 1
accident Nino Farina ITA 32 Alfa Romeo 0
accident Luigi Fagioli ITA 36 Alfa Romeo 0
accident Louis Rosier FRA 16 Talbot-Lago 0
accident Robert Manzon FRA 10 Simca-Gordini 0
accident Toulo de Graffenried SUI 52 Maserati 0
accident Maurice Trintignant FRA 12 Simca-Gordini 0
accident Cuth Harrison GBR 24 ERA 0
accident Franco Rol ITA 44 Maserati 0
collision Harry Schell
"

[schmenke]

I wonder, what do these 66 incidents include. ....

Prost :p:

[Zico]

Interesting comparisons to Senna, wow.. never thought I'd see them both mentioned in the same sentence!
I think the cars are somewhat easier to drive now, different eras? I don't see them as being similarly dangerous.. but not sure why. I wonder how Ayrtons crash stats compare with other drivers of that time also compared to Maldonados vs the current crop.


I'm just glad to see the back of Pastor, he was a danger to everyone.

[Koz]

Career Low
Wrecklessly launching Esteban Gutierrez into a frightening roll at the 2014 Bahrain Grand Prix also stands out.

You know, that's just him being an idiot that he is.
In my opinion his career low was after qualifying in Spa a few years ago when he deliberately drove into Hamilton.
He should have been out of F1 there and then.

[Rollo]

...he deliberately drove into...
He should have been out of F1 there and then.

Senna
Schumacher
Maldonado
The Entire Renault Team

Kenseth

There's an illustrious club if ever I saw one.

[Nitrodaze]

Being a race winning driver does not particularly mean you are a good one. He was lucky that weekend and that is it! He wasn't capable of more. If he had been capable of better then he would have managed it in four years of driving. Talent alone isn't enough. If you're a complete idiot, and he is, then your talent is wasted, because it's canceled out by the wrong mentality and that mentality renders you incapable of achieving more.

As for Hulk, I'm not convinced about him either. I don't see what others see in him. He impressed me once to get pole in Brazil, just like Maldonado impressed once.

Steady buddy, the Hulk won Le Mans last year. He is without doubt a top driver. His tall frame has put him at a disadvantage for top seats. That does not reflect on his ability at all. As for Maldonado, he got into a rot and just could not find his way out. We were saying just about the same thing about Grosjean. Luckily he found a way out of his rot. It is a difficult side of racing and darn depressing for a driver while they are in this sort of rot.

I happen to get what a difficult couple of seasons 2014 and 15 must have been for Maldonado; hence l see things differently.

[Nitrodaze]

I am definitely not the fan of Senna that most are. Though fast, I thought he was a dangerous and unsportsman like driver. 66 incidents in 95 race weekends is a 69% rate - hardly the mark of the best driver. Could someone pull up the incident rate for a few others like Clark, Fangio, Stewart, etc. for comparison?

I think we should put things in perspective. Senna was unlikely to win 3 championships if he crashed a lot on race days. There were the obvious crashes during the battle with Prost. Beside those and the unavoidable DNFs due to mechanical problems, l really do not remember many driver errors from Senna. You may have your reasons for not being a Senna fan but you must at least give respect where respect is due. And Senna deserves loads of respect, in my opinion. He was hard but fair and fast.

[Nitrodaze]

If you break a piece of car, say needing a nose cone replaced, then that's an incident. Especially early in his career, Senna was prone to spinning cars in Friday practice and breaking front wings. Maldonaldo's are similar; I read a lot of "Crashes into the barrier at Turn X by himself in Practice X."

Crashes during practise is acceptable as it is an exploratory session where crashes or incidents are expected. Hence they do not count in the grand scheme of things. What counts are crashes or incident on race day that cost the team and driver points or race win. On this score, l doubt you would find much wrong with Senna; especially in his prime.

I say that because, compared to Prost, Shumacher, Vettel, Hamilton; race number adjusted; he would not standout that much in terms of crashes, l don't think. I am sure someone out there may well prove me wrong, until then l have my doubts.

[Koz]

Senna
Schumacher
Maldonado
The Entire Renault Team

Kenseth

There's an illustrious club if ever I saw one.

I don't recall anyone else trying to take someone out AFTER a session was over, and for no gain whatsoever. Maybe they could justify it for their ends.

Maldonado hitting Hamilton was just malice.

[Starter]

"Crashes during practise is acceptable as it is an exploratory session where crashes or incidents are expected. Hence they do not count in the grand scheme of things. What counts are crashes or incident on race day that cost the team and driver points or race win. On this score, l doubt you would find much wrong with Senna; especially in his prime.

I say that because, compared to Prost, Shumacher, Vettel, Hamilton; race number adjusted; he would not standout that much in terms of crashes, l don't think. I am sure someone out there may well prove me wrong, until then l have my doubts."

The fast part, no dispute. The fair part?? Much dispute. That's the reason I would never rate him in my list of the best F1 drivers.

[Jag_Warrior]

Crashes during practise is acceptable as it is an exploratory session where crashes or incidents are expected. Hence they do not count in the grand scheme of things. What counts are crashes or incident on race day that cost the team and driver points or race win. On this score, l doubt you would find much wrong with Senna; especially in his prime.

I say that because, compared to Prost, Shumacher, Vettel, Hamilton; race number adjusted; he would not standout that much in terms of crashes, l don't think. I am sure someone out there may well prove me wrong, until then l have my doubts.

Having followed Senna since he was at Lotus, I always felt that I was watching a genius in action. A flawed genius, much like Steve Jobs? Yes. But the only man who ever lived who was without sin had nail marks in his hands at the end. The rest of us are flawed to varying degrees. Senna's drive at Estoril was one for the ages. Passing people on the outside, on the wet line, in an inferior car? Yeah, that blew me away! In one of the interviews in the documentary, "Senna", Jackie Stewart asked Senna about his aggressive driving style. Jackie was from a different era. He had seen SO many of his fellow racers die in what looked like minor accidents. Senna's aggressive driving style didn't set well with him... and I knew why. But Senna was initially taken aback. His reply was that he saw it as his job to always take the car and himself to the limit (I'm paraphrasing). This is why he would often blast off another hot lap even when he had pole wrapped up. In this day and time especially, people are sensitive to things like (male) aggression and "bullying" and all manner of dominant behavior. But Senna's attitude was all about establishing his dominance over the field. That's why Eddie Irvine got b!tch slapped. That's why Michael Schumacher got a finger in the face. That's why he didn't back down from Prost in his earliest days at McLaren, or even Prost's crooked FIA "patron", Jean-Marie Balestre - the most powerful man in motorsports at that time. He was often the only one who would speak up during driver meetings, while the others would silently sit there and be spoken to like naughty children by Balestre. He saved his "niceness" for the poor kids of Brazil. The way he saw it, anybody that strapped on a helmet was fair game. Renault got that. And that's why they (a French car company) forced Williams to take Senna in '94, even though Prost had a contractual right of refusal with Williams... and Renault knew that it would mean that Prost (a Frenchman) would have to go. For Renault and Senna, it was about the ruthless business of winning. Who would lay it on the line for Maldonado? Who would risk burning a bridge with a winning team to get or keep him? No one.

But this is not about Senna vs. Maldonado. Maldonado should never be mentioned in the same breath as Senna, Prost, Schumacher, or anyone else who could overcome the occasional mistake with a flurry of brilliant drives. Pastor was more likely to overcome his occasional flash of brilliance with his more normal brain fade. I might compare Maldonado to Shigeaki Hattori (Mr. Boombastic... Shiggy!) - he was a "comic genius" prone to brain fade while driving too. Whatever talent that Pastor Maldonado has tends to be overshadowed by the simple fact that the wires in his brain sometimes come loose and short out. I'm not sure what's wrong with him. But I think his inability to focus is why he would run into things while trying to adjust the buttons on his steering wheel or not see other cars that were obviously beside him.

Whatever happens to Pastor in the future, at least he'll always have the memory of that lone grand prix victory. He has that to talk about forever more. He can leave out all of his driving faux pas. And as a fellow once told me, the older you get, the faster and better you were. Ya just have to wait long enough. :D

[Rollo]

Whatever happens to Pastor in the future, at least he'll always have the memory of that lone grand prix victory.

Say whatever you like. That's still more than any of us have done... unless someone wants to throw many millions of dollarpounds at me. I promise to bear your burden of riches, however massive :D

[Starter]

Say whatever you like. That's still more than any of us have done... unless someone wants to throw many millions of dollarpounds at me. I promise to bear your burden of riches, however massive :D
The combined resources of Carlos Slim and Bill Gates couldn't buy you a F1 win.... or me either for that matter. Might get you enough stuff to smoke to make one think they'd won a race though. :D

[Jag_Warrior]

Say whatever you like. That's still more than any of us have done... unless someone wants to throw many millions of dollarpounds at me. I promise to bear your burden of riches, however massive :D

This is very true. He'll always have that. But in truth, everyone on the F1 grid has accomplished more (in auto racing) than any of us ever will. Heck, I wouldn't mind being Will Stevens for a day, as long as that day was the morning of the Monaco Grand Prix.

And with the passage of time, Pastor may be remembered more for winning that race, admittedly in totally legit fashion, than things like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=26&v=7kY1N2pC0L4

[The Black Knight]

This is very true. He'll always have that. But in truth, everyone on the F1 grid has accomplished more (in auto racing) than any of us ever will. Heck, I wouldn't mind being Will Stevens for a day, as long as that day was the morning of the Monaco Grand Prix.

And with the passage of time, Pastor may be remembered more for winning that race, admittedly in totally legit fashion, than things like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=26&v=7kY1N2pC0L4

Maybe but I doubt it. Perhaps if he returns in 2017 as a paid driver again after having a a year to reflect he may just about be able to clear his head up. He needs a big change of direction, however. I can't remember a time there has been a worse driver in F1.

The worst thing I found about Pastor was his inability to see and recognize that he had done wrong. No matter what the situation he was never to blame, according to him. Even in Bahrain was it last year, where he made the most ridiculous lunge in the history of motorsport down the inside of one of Gutierrez, and Guitierrez became airborne, he insisted that he was the innocent party. When you have a driver of this mentality it's a danger to everyone on the grid. He's completely obtuse and blindsighted to his own faults. Vettel is also blindsighted to his own faults but he gets away with it because he has bundles of talent and doesn't make stupid mistakes very often. One of things I've always liked about Lewis Hamilton was his ability to hold his hand up and take the blame for something. Maldonado, on the other hand, doesn't get away with it because he doesn't have bundles of talent like the other two and he makes more mistakes than most of the grid combined.

Looking back at that video just cements my belief that the grid is a far better place without him. Most of those incidents were just absurd.

[The Black Knight]

Steady buddy, the Hulk won Le Mans last year. He is without doubt a top driver. His tall frame has put him at a disadvantage for top seats. That does not reflect on his ability at all. As for Maldonado, he got into a rot and just could not find his way out. We were saying just about the same thing about Grosjean. Luckily he found a way out of his rot. It is a difficult side of racing and darn depressing for a driver while they are in this sort of rot.

I happen to get what a difficult couple of seasons 2014 and 15 must have been for Maldonado; hence l see things differently.

Given that Hulk was the only participating F1 driver in Le Mans last year and that F1 drivers are supposedly the best in the world then he should have won it. That's too bad if his tall frame put him at a disadvantage but that's all part of being an F1 driver.

Actually, I was never that hard on Grosjean because you could see his flaws were something an individual could and wanted overcome and he admitted his mistakes. That's not the case with Maldonado and therein lies his biggest flaw, he didn't believe he had anything to improve upon. Had Maldonado ever even admitted his mistakes, even to himself, it would have been a start, but clearly given his continual tendency smash into other drivers that was not the case.

The 2015 and 15 seasons may have been hard for Maldonado but that hardship was self induced by him and only he is to blame for it so really there's no sympathy to be given there. I had sympathy for Grosjean because he wanted to improve, Maldonado was happy staying stationary and crashing into others.

[Big Ben]

I haven't seen many races in the recent years so I haven't seen Maldonado blossom in what he is today but in one of those rare occasions I had the patience to watch an entire race I could get a glimpse of that magic. It wasn't nothing spectacular but it was magical in it's simple way. He managed to get at least 3 drive-throughs in just one race. Say what you may but the truth is Formula 1 will lose something in 2016, it's definitely going to be less funny.