Is Mercedes killing F1?

[Nitrodaze]

When a team assumes a position of unrivaled dominance, it is usual for fans to complain about lack of competition at the front. When Michael Schumacher chalked up 5 consecutive drivers title with Ferrari, there was endless complaints of how boring f1 had become. But even in that era, Hakkinen and Alonso managed to win double driver titles each. Hence, there were teams close enough to Ferrari to give Ferrari a good run for their money each season. The team dynamics was centred around Schumacher with the second driver providing support and ensuring a Ferrari one two finishes occur, hence team orde was regularly used to ensure the desired results are achieved

The Redbull era was the next wave of unrivaled dominance that saw another brilliant German; Vettel chalk up 4 consecutive drivers title. In this era, Mclaren and Ferrari were winning races. Ferrrari were close enough to steal a driver title but botched it with poor pit strategy, much to Alonso's annoyance. The Redbull team dynamics was clearly centered around Vettel who was largely seen as the best chance for Redbull to win those championships which he did spectacularly. Webber was mainly there to win when Vettel falters and ensure one two finishes. Team orders were regularly used to achieve desired results but only worked when in favour of Vettel. The car supplied were clearly not in parity as Webber tend to have all the DNFs due to part failures.

We are now in the Mercedes era of unrivaled dominance which so far has seen Lewis Hamilton win two consecutive world championships. Two seasons in, Ferrari has managed to win three races with Vettel. Williams, Force India and Lotus have managed to attain podium positions when Ferrari faltered.

Unlike the previous, the gap between the top three teams are quite considerable. Mercedes was significantly ahead of the Ferrari in second place. Ferrari was in turn significantly ahead of the Williams in third, scoring almost double the Williams constructors points. This disparity of performance of the top three teams has been responsible for the poor entertainment at the front of the grid and the source of most fans disillusion with current F1. Obviously, this was largely due to the highly restrictive FIA engine rules that has unwittingly created this disparity. Whatever the case, can we rightly begrudge Mercedes from taking full advantage of the situation. Possibly not.

But what are the gripes with Mercedes? With dominance, Mercedes would naturally inherit the section of fans disillusioned with unrivaled dominance. But Mercedes had won most of those fans over, particularly in 2014 when they allowed both or their drivers to race each other without interference. A year that wholly made up for the lack of competition from other teams. However, in 2015, Mercedes may have lost most of the fans won over in 2014 as they have been seen to exert more noticeable control on the outcome of races. Many remain quietly unconvinced of Hamilton's drop of form since Singapore to be driver related. Other conspiracy theorist have suggested that Ferrari's 3 wins were pre-arranged. Others have suggested that Williams are debarred from beating Mercedes in their engine supply agreement.

The disparity between the performance of the Mercedes and the Ferrari would to some extent give cause for wonder how Ferrari came to win 3 races in 2015. Three races where tyre performance were real problems for the Merc team. The ferrari in Vettels hands were clearly dominant on those occasions, thus well deserved wins.

The disparity between the Mercedes and the Williams cars, coupled with Williams chassis defficiency and operational problems would certainly dispell any suggestion that Williams are debarred from beating the Mercedes in races. They just don't have what it takes to beat the Mercedes, even on their best days.

The main cause for disquiet is, most are quietly wondering based on what has transpired since singapore if Mercedes would attempt to manufacture a world championship for Rosberg in 2016. Is what we are seeing, a dress rehearsal of sorts? Can we trust Mercedes not to interfere with the raw racing between their drivers in 2016? On hindsight, one would expect Mercedes not to jeopardize their season by handicapping the driver that has proven without any doubt, the ability of delivering world championship. Mercedes must at least match Redbull's four consecutive driver and constructors world championships, to earn the respect that Ferrari and Redbull enjoy in F1. As it stands at the moment, they have a great engine, but are not yet a great team in the vain of Ferrari or Redbull. Hence are they going to risk it? Especially knowing the racer in Hamilton would do what it takes to ensure he is in front, given the same equipment to race.

Pondering this over and over, l wonder what you guys and Gals think about this?

[jens]

People were already pondering before 2014 and 2015 that maybe "Mercedes helps Rosberg to win". It has not happened. If Rosberg wins in 2016, it will be either on merit or due to heavy unluck on Hamilton's part.

As for domination... Personally... I have already got used to the thought that in many sports domination occurs from time-to-time. It is just natural. In F1 it probably happens more often than in many others sports, but that's because the participation costs are so high, hence only very few competitors can afford to compete, let alone compete at the front.

So while competition is boring due to dominance (normal occurence), we can enjoy or turn attention to other aspects of the sport to find some bright sides.:)

As for politics/strategies... Sure enough, if you win you have more power, and vice versa.:D Also Mercedes has invested heavily into F1, they supply 4 teams with power units and are very much behind the new set of technical regulations. It feels like pointing out that Honda and Yamaha have "all the power in Moto GP". Volkswagen has that in WRC, etc. Well, if there are only so few truly elite competitors, what can you do.

[zako85]

When Michael Schumacher chalked up 5 consecutive drivers title with Ferrari, there was endless complaints of how boring f1 had become. But even in that era, Hakkinen and Alonso managed to win double driver titles each.

Hakkinen won the two titles _before_ the Ferrari five WDC title streak, and Alonso won his two titles AFTER the Ferrari dominance ended, allegedly due to change in tire usage rules.




Hence, there were teams close enough to Ferrari to give Ferrari a good run for their money each season.

The 2002 and 2004 seasons went down in record books as some of the dullest seasons in history, with Ferrari ending near the top in the statistics for the most wins in the season or most consecutive wins.

Why am I correcting your statements? If you look at the facts, the Mercedes domination is not much different from what we have witnessed under Ferrari and Schumacher. Nothing entirely new IMHO. Let me remind you that by the end of 2013, fans were already feeling nauseous about the Red Bull domination, with fans booing Vettel off the podium and publications speculating about Red Bull "cheating".

Having said it, of course I don't like single team domination, specially when there is no good competition within that team. The last point is what made the most recent Ferrari and Red Bull domination years so dull. At the same time, fans recall the years of McLaren domination in the 80s with real pride. That's because Prost and Senna battled each other hard at that time.

For this reason, I personally would argue that 2014 season wasn't entirely bad. Due to some luck and other random circumstances, Rosberg was able to stay in contention for 2014 title until the final race, and that kept this discussion board awake, with board members dehydrated from saliva loss having spent weeks arguing whether Rosberg cheated or not in Monaco and Spa. What made the 2015 season so dull is that it seems like Mercedes has forbidden its drivers to truly race each other since some time around the Spa debacle.

[Nitrodaze]

Hakkinen won the two titles _before_ the Ferrari five WDC title streak, and Alonso won his two titles AFTER the Ferrari dominance ended, allegedly due to change in tire usage rules.


Thanks for the correction and further incite.

[jens]

Having said it, of course I don't like single team domination, specially when there is no good competition within that team. The last point is what made the most recent Ferrari and Red Bull domination years so dull. At the same time, fans recall the years of McLaren domination in the 80s with real pride. That's because Prost and Senna battled each other hard at that time.

I know people idolize the late 80s, but to be honest - how much of it is rose-tinted glasses? Because IMHO it is very much the case. Once I watched the FIA Reviews of those years and there were only a couple of races per season, when Senna and Prost really battled hard.

And then think of 1989 - Senna was faster in most races, and Prost only won due to far better reliability. So not much different from the title battle we had in 2014, only that Hamilton DNF only 3 times, which wasn't enough to deny him the title, while Senna in 1989 DNF from more than half of the races.

So late 1980s is indeed rose-tinted glasses. Retrospectively viewed romantically only because Senna/Prost are legendary names. And also partly due to the off-track drama and major fall-out between drivers. But not what was really going on on the racing track.

[Nitrodaze]

Based on the motor sport interview of Toto Wolf;

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/wolff-driver-tension-may-force-line-up-change/

it would seem the team is struggling to manage the fierce competition between its drivers. Firstly, that would explain the single strategy policy adopted for the 2015 season. but what l find most interesting is he says they may drop either Hamilton or Rosberg. A very strange parity between a three times world champion and a driver yet to win one drivers title. This would probably suggest that Toto believes they can continue to win world titles without Hamilton. In this scenario, it would suggest that Toto believes Rosberg can win world titles without Hamilton in the other car.

This aspect of the interview response raises a number of implications:-

1. Rosberg's contract runs until the end of next season, hence is he in danger of losing his seat.
2. Hamilton's contract runs until 2018, is there a clause that allows Mercedes to sever the contract cheaply. You may ask why would Mercedes drop a driver that has proven that he can win championship for Mercedes as long as they produce a winning car, for one that is yet to prove himself.
3. Giving their drivers equal status is clearly not working. Developing a campaign behind one driver worked for Ferrari's and Redbull's dominance, it may well be the answer for Mercedes, as much as they hate to admit it. In this particular scenario, having a 3 times world champion as a number 2 driver is an unlikely prospect, hence it would seem Rosberg would under this circumstances be relegated to the number 2 status. If this were to happen, would Rosberg leave the team? If he does, where could he get a competitive drive for 2017, Ferrari? back to Williams?
4. If Mercedes decides to drop Hamilton and pay him loads of money to leave the team, where would he go? Ferrari, back to Mclaren or head off to racing in America?

Who would you miss the most if Hamilton or Rosberg left F1?

[Storm]

No. Mercedes is just doing their job well. It's boring for us but true.

What is killing F1 is the silly rules on development/engine freeze, crap engines to begin with and too much aerodynamics.

Add to that the utter ineptness of Ferrari, Renault and McLaren (Honda!) to make anything beat Merc.

[Rollo]

At the same time, fans recall the years of McLaren domination in the 80s with real pride. That's because Prost and Senna battled each other hard at that time.


Pride? Only the Kia sort.

The 1988 season was so mind-numbingly dull that I don't even need to look up anything to tell you, the most exciting moment of the year.

Lap 49 in the Italian GP when future Dakar buggy man Jean-Louis Schlesser in his only GP start, who was left with nowhere to go, tagged Senna at the Rettifilo, breaking his suspension and thus gifting Ferrari a 1-2 (Berger/Alboreto).

[Nitrodaze]

Hakkinen won the two titles _before_ the Ferrari five WDC title streak, and Alonso won his two titles AFTER the Ferrari dominance ended, allegedly due to change in tire usage rules.


But nonetheless, Damon Hill and Jacques Villeneuve both won driver titles for the Williams during the early period of the Schumacher Ferrari era. Ferrari was still the favorite during those years that Williams won.

[Storm]

^Well what?????????

The Ferrari constantly broke down in '96 and MS did quite well to win a few races - Spain in the rain. (that was the year MS moved to Ferrari - so not the latter period at all) The Williams was utterly dominant and Hill won the tie at Suzuka beating Villeneuve (so 2 Williams battling till the final race in a car which wasn't top of the field?)

So the Williams sorta sandwiched Benetton (92/93 and 96/97) and then McLaren won 2 years in a row BEFORE MS/Ferrari finally won in 2000. Then obviously for the next 4 years too.

[Nitrodaze]

^Well what?????????

The Ferrari constantly broke down in '96 and MS did quite well to win a few races - Spain in the rain. (that was the year MS moved to Ferrari - so not the latter period at all) The Williams was utterly dominant and Hill won the tie at Suzuka beating Villeneuve (so 2 Williams battling till the final race in a car which wasn't top of the field?)

So the Williams sorta sandwiched Benetton (92/93 and 96/97) and then McLaren won 2 years in a row BEFORE MS/Ferrari finally won in 2000. Then obviously for the next 4 years too.

The Williams was the superior car between 1997-99. the period between 2000- 2004, the Ferrari did not have it easy like Redbull or Mercedes, Williams and Mclaren were very much hot on their heels. 2004 was the easiest title win for Schumacher. Which was the point l was trying to make. Even Redbull in their dominant era had Ferrari and Mclaren winning races. Even the Lotus managed to win one race with Maldonado.

[Stan Reid]

As Tony George did with Champ Car, Bernie, exclusive of any help from Mercedes, is doing a good enough job of ruining F1 by himself.

[Nitrodaze]

Interestingly, Bernie thinks Mercedes dominance is boring. I suppose his darling Ferrari are not on top is the reason why.

[zako85]

But nonetheless, Damon Hill and Jacques Villeneuve both won driver titles for the Williams during the early period of the Schumacher Ferrari era. Ferrari was still the favorite during those years that Williams won.

The 1996-1997 was the early period of the Schumacher Ferrari era, but Ferrari was hardly a dominant team at that time. When Schumacher moved to Ferrari in 1996 season from a three title winning Benetton-Renault, a LOT of people were questioning that move because from 1991 through 1995 Ferrari was the laughing stock of the F1 world (in the sense of being the team that gets the least bang for its bang). The 1996 car was fast but plagued with reliability problems. The 1996 season was clearly a Williams-Hill domination era since Hill won the championship by a large margin. The 1997 probably wasn't anybody's domination season since the WDC title battle went on to the final race.

[Jag_Warrior]

As Tony George did with Champ Car, Bernie, exclusive of any help from Mercedes, is doing a good enough job of ruining F1 by himself.

Although I'm one of the founding members of the Tony George Hated For Life Club, Andrew Craig and the various, ego maniacal, self-interested CART owners share the blame (40/60?) on CART's failure. Ecclestone is just so out of touch with the modern world that I think that a younger person should be brought in to manage future commercial development, while Ecclestone continues managing current deals. He's not going to share power though. Maybe Ecclestone should be put out to pasture and a team headed by, say, Zak Brown should lead FOM from here on out.

[Nitrodaze]

Although I'm one of the founding members of the Tony George Hated For Life Club, Andrew Craig and the various, ego maniacal, self-interested CART owners share the blame (40/60?) on CART's failure. Ecclestone is just so out of touch with the modern world that I think that a younger person should be brought in to manage future commercial development, while Ecclestone continues managing current deals. He's not going to share power though. Maybe Ecclestone should be put out to pasture and a team headed by, say, Zak Brown should lead FOM from here on out.

I would love to see Gerhard Berger in that position personally. He is an ex-driver with a very special business acumen.

[N. Jones]

I will chime in to this to say that I agree with those who have mentioned the previous teams that have dominated. Sports is cyclical and Mercedes reign will end.

[Matt Phelps]

In no way have they ruined F1, they've made the most out of the new hybrid cars. I can guarantee you that this dominance will lead to Ferrari and Red Bull trying even harder with their next cars. This will effect Toro Rosso, making them better. McLaren will pitch in with a hopeful mid-table car, also Manor are now considered a 'youth' team for Mercedes if you like. They'll improve as well

[Nitrodaze]

In no way have they ruined F1, they've made the most out of the new hybrid cars. I can guarantee you that this dominance will lead to Ferrari and Red Bull trying even harder with their next cars. This will effect Toro Rosso, making them better. McLaren will pitch in with a hopeful mid-table car, also Manor are now considered a 'youth' team for Mercedes if you like. They'll improve as well

I agree, one can't blame a team for doing a better job than the rest.

[Nitrodaze]

Lewis Hamilton acted like 'spoilt child' after title - Jacques Villeneuve

It was interesting to read about Villeneuves comments about Hamilton's unhappiness regarding his lost of form following the Singapore GP.

see http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/14341978/radio-ga-ga-2015

It would seem the Canadian would rather the triple world champion should keep quiet about his problems and count his blessing. A clear indication that the 1997 champion sees the 2015 driver championship as a privilege rather than an achievement from pure graft. I suppose the 2015 season concluded too easily for some, but l fail to see how any racer would be contented with a lack of form over some 3 or more consecutive races.

[Bagwan]

Lewis Hamilton acted like 'spoilt child' after title - Jacques Villeneuve

It was interesting to read about Villeneuves comments about Hamilton's unhappiness regarding his lost of form following the Singapore GP.

see http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/14341978/radio-ga-ga-2015

It would seem the Canadian would rather the triple world champion should keep quiet about his problems and count his blessing. A clear indication that the 1997 champion sees the 2015 driver championship as a privilege rather than an achievement from pure graft. I suppose the 2015 season concluded too easily for some, but l fail to see how any racer would be contented with a lack of form over some 3 or more consecutive races.

Well , he does have a point , doesn't he ?

Hamilton could have just said that his team mate must have been hungrier those last races .
That would have let us speculate that he was a little more relaxed , having won the title .

But , talking about the set-up change smelled a little like that infamous set-up tweet from long ago .
And , now , everyone and their uncle knows not only that he's struggling with it , but that they aren't going to change it back , so he'll keep on struggling to get back on par .
Likely significant in this , also , is that he just highlighted some development that may not have been obvious to his competitors from other teams .
He told all that this was the new direction they would be going , and even highlighted that he had taken off one part to try to seek parity , and that it hadn't worked .
I'm not sure that the part of which he spoke was visible or not , but that's a little more info given out that should be kept internal .

And , Jacques is also not wrong that he's just let on that the car suited him before the change and not Nico , and that this is perhaps why two drivers only a tenth or so apart in most qualifiers have swapped places for the last six .


With it won , it seemed all and sundry were willing to let him say he was slacking a bit .
Letting that fly would also have diminished Nico's achievements at the same time , but it doesn't look like he maybe looked that far ahead .