Rule Changes for 2017

[steveaki13]

So F1 is seemly pretty dull to me in 2015. 2014 was better but still too onesided.

So with 2013 being dull, and 4 titles for Seb and now 2 dominant Mercedes seasons and titles.

F1 for me is justified in trying to change things for 2017. However they need to make the right changes.

On TV Brundle said he felt the proposed changes were not what was needed.

So I loved F1 in the past but am not blessed with the love or time to read through all the changes.

Can you guys my forum mates talk me through the proposed changes and what you feel is needed and whether the proposed ones will help.

(Basically discuss the proposed changes and what you think)

[Stan Reid]

I'm hoping they get rid of this flaccid powerplant formula soon.

My engine proposal:

Choice of :

Normally aspirated 2.9 liter engines with KERS optional

Mechanically driven supercharger 1.1 liter engines with KERS disallowed

simple as that

[dj_bytedisaster]

So F1 is seemly pretty dull to me in 2015. 2014 was better but still too onesided.

So with 2013 being dull, and 4 titles for Seb and now 2 dominant Mercedes seasons and titles.

F1 for me is justified in trying to change things for 2017. However they need to make the right changes.

On TV Brundle said he felt the proposed changes were not what was needed.

So I loved F1 in the past but am not blessed with the love or time to read through all the changes.

Can you guys my forum mates talk me through the proposed changes and what you feel is needed and whether the proposed ones will help.

(Basically discuss the proposed changes and what you think)

As far as Brundle is concerned, every change that makes sure Lewis Hamilton wins is the way to go. Last weekend was an absolute low in terms of how badly Sky can get it wrong. Even the English speaking folks are sick of it : http://www.theroar.com.au/2015/11/18/formula-ones-hamilton-centric-media-coverage-must-end-now/

The current Formula is dumb, because I think promoting the Hybrid engine is essentially like promoting the Neanderthal - a solution that evolution will rubbish before long. Either they stay with internal combustion engines and be as politically incorrect as they are supposed to be, or they go electric, more precisely - fuel cells and not the ridiculous car changing malarkey that Formula-E does. Everything else is half-arsed stuff.

[Rollo]

The current Formula is dumb, because I think promoting the Hybrid engine is essentially like promoting the Neanderthal - a solution that evolution will rubbish before long. Either they stay with internal combustion engines and be as politically incorrect as they are supposed to be, or they go electric, more precisely - fuel cells and not the ridiculous car changing malarkey that Formula-E does. Everything else is half-arsed stuff.

The thing is that for road going cars, going all electric would require massive changes in battery technology or charging stations. Fuel Cell technology (I assume you means hydrogren) also needs changes to existing infrastructure.

Hybrid systems will always be a half-way house but the fact that you can now by a Hybrid Camry, Volt, Insight or CR-Z, does show that Hybrids are at least workable.

The current Formula is dumb; not because of Hybrid tech but because of the stupid engine freeze. There is no evolution really because the rules don't allow it.

[zako85]

I keep hearing predictions that most vehicles sold in the USA will eventually be sold with hybrid engines because of EPA's CAFE fuel economy requirements and all that. So hybrid or electric is not dumb. The versions of some of the most popular cars have either hybrid or electric variant: Honda Accord, Honda Civic, Ford Fusion, Toyota Camry, Toyota Prius, Hyundai Sonata, etc.

Either way, it seems like the current engine regs were approved with the agreement from the engine factories, so I don't know what's so controversial about it.

[Nitrodaze]

I keep hearing predictions that most vehicles sold in the USA will eventually be sold with hybrid engines because of EPA's CAFE fuel economy requirements and all that. So hybrid or electric is not dumb. The versions of some of the most popular cars have either hybrid or electric variant: Honda Accord, Honda Civic, Ford Fusion, Toyota Camry, Toyota Prius, Hyundai Sonata, etc.

Either way, it seems like the current engine regs were approved with the agreement from the engine factories, so I don't know what's so controversial about it.

Though the engine regulations were agreed by the engine supplier teams,Hybrid engine was not their idea nor were they completely comfortable with how the FIA wanted to regulate it. They were somewhat forced down the politically correct eco-friendly path by the FIA.
In principle, the Hybrid idea was great as it brought alot of relevant innovation challenges to the F1 engineers. From battery storage, energy recovery etc to reduced fuel consumption. The immediate future of public motoring shall essentially be a mixture of hybrid and electric in the near future. Continued research and innovation in this area is where F1 becomes a facilitating medium. Unfortunately the restrictive regulation of the hybrid regime has become a barrier to F1 being an incubator for innovations that transition to road cars. It seems, the FIA no longer see that as a responsibility of F1. The emphasis seem to be more about entertainment, the more overtaking the better. It seems they think the fans are dumb, all they want to see is overtaking. Give them more overtaking and all would be content.

[Bagwan]

I find it more than a bit odd that nobody seems to promote the fact that the series is actually moving towards a more eco-friendly future with it's hybrid PUs .
It's almost never mentioned , except in conversations that stem from it being too expensive .

They've done some pretty incredible things with energy recovery and nobody seems to want to crow about it at all .
Seems crazy to me .

[dj_bytedisaster]

I find it more than a bit odd that nobody seems to promote the fact that the series is actually moving towards a more eco-friendly future with it's hybrid PUs .
It's almost never mentioned , except in conversations that stem from it being too expensive .

They've done some pretty incredible things with energy recovery and nobody seems to want to crow about it at all .
Seems crazy to me .

It's not odd. You merely missed the fact that F1 is not about hugging trees or standing in a circle, holding hands and singing Hava Nagila. It is supposed to be the very top of automotive development and the hybrid engine is not it.

[zako85]

It's not odd. You merely missed the fact that F1 is not about hugging trees or standing in a circle, holding hands and singing Hava Nagila. It is supposed to be the very top of automotive development and the hybrid engine is not it.

I beg to differ.

Real production supercar examples: LaFerrari, McLaren P1, Porsche 918 Spyder.
Other racing series: Audi R18, Porsche 919, Toyota TS040
Affordable, real-world production cars: Toyota Prius family, Toyota Camry, Honda Accord and Civic Hybrids, Honda Insight, Fod C-Max Energi, Ford Fusion Hybrid, VW Jetta Hybrid. This is the future at least in America because EPA's requirement for tighter fuel efficiency in future.

The problem with the F1 power units is not their road relevance, but their cost. FIA probably allowed too much room for tweaking the parts, which resulted in high costs, while failing to introduce a cap on the price of the customer engines.

[Nitrodaze]

I find it more than a bit odd that nobody seems to promote the fact that the series is actually moving towards a more eco-friendly future with it's hybrid PUs .
It's almost never mentioned , except in conversations that stem from it being too expensive .

They've done some pretty incredible things with energy recovery and nobody seems to want to crow about it at all .
Seems crazy to me .

Not odd at all, considering the FIA is about to introduce less eco-friendly 2.2 litre cheap engines.

[Bagwan]

It's not odd. You merely missed the fact that F1 is not about hugging trees or standing in a circle, holding hands and singing Hava Nagila. It is supposed to be the very top of automotive development and the hybrid engine is not it.

It's "kumbaya" , not "Hava Nagila" they don't sing .

[Bagwan]

I beg to differ.

Real production supercar examples: LaFerrari, McLaren P1, Porsche 918 Spyder.
Other racing series: Audi R18, Porsche 919, Toyota TS040
Affordable, real-world production cars: Toyota Prius family, Toyota Camry, Honda Accord and Civic Hybrids, Honda Insight, Fod C-Max Energi, Ford Fusion Hybrid, VW Jetta Hybrid. This is the future at least in America because EPA's requirement for tighter fuel efficiency in future.

The problem with the F1 power units is not their road relevance, but their cost. FIA probably allowed too much room for tweaking the parts, which resulted in high costs, while failing to introduce a cap on the price of the customer engines.

There's an ad on TV here that has an all electric dissed because it runs out of power , with a hybrid crooned about because it has a gas engine to extend the range . It's as if you never need to add gas .

Now , in practical terms , it does seem like the hybrid is a better way to go in lower temperatures , because the battery tech is not there to produce good power in the cold , but , there's nothing wrong with it in warmer climes .

In F1 , you've got some serious innovation in the field , and it's gotten pretty reliable of late .
They've made the whole package incredibly efficient , using far less fuel , yet keeping the same speeds .

Williams , as a result of a another branch of research spawned by the formula , has a KERS flywheel business you never seem to hear about .



As for how much they cost , build anything many times and your costs come down , both in production efficiency and as one spreads out the original cost of design .
Of course , any savings would be spent on further monkeying on it , so the only real solution would indeed be , as you said , with a cost cap inflicted by way of a standard customer engine price .

[Bagwan]

Not odd at all, considering the FIA is about to introduce less eco-friendly 2.2 litre cheap engines.

Yeah , they create the formula with an apparent agenda , and then seem to undermine the whole idea after never having really promoted it .
Curious , eh ?

Makes you wonder if that was the point in the first place .

Hybrids ?
Nah , it'll never work . They'd probably be too expensive , and too complicated , and you'd run out of power half way back from the store , and you'd probably have your kids in the car with you , and your dog , too , and for sure you'd be right in front of the local gas station when it decides to die , and of course , you can't just plug it in because you need one of those really expensive plug things to charge it up , like the one you had to get those high priced electricians to install in your house when you got the car , so , you're stuck there for the duration , until the auto club arrives , when you hope they'll believe you that you are a member , because you don't have your card .
How embarrassing .

For crying out loud , just use gas . It's so much simpler .

[AndyL]

I find it more than a bit odd that nobody seems to promote the fact that the series is actually moving towards a more eco-friendly future with it's hybrid PUs .
It's almost never mentioned , except in conversations that stem from it being too expensive .

They've done some pretty incredible things with energy recovery and nobody seems to want to crow about it at all .
Seems crazy to me .

I agree. The fact that they've slashed their fuel consumption by at least a third, yet still managed to increase speeds, is pretty remarkable. You'd think the engine manufacturers would be mentioning this at every opportunity. They wanted these "more relevant" hybrid engines, but it doesn't seem like they're getting the marketing value out of them that they ought to.

Maybe people like Toto Wolff should take a leaf out of the politicians' book. When asked about whether the formula is too engine-dominated, or if the power units are too expensive, just dodge the question and instead reiterate how their super-advanced engines are going faster on 2/3 the fuel of the old ones.

[Nitrodaze]

Yeah , they create the formula with an apparent agenda , and then seem to undermine the whole idea after never having really promoted it .
Curious , eh ?

Makes you wonder if that was the point in the first place .

Hybrids ?
Nah , it'll never work . They'd probably be too expensive , and too complicated , and you'd run out of power half way back from the store , and you'd probably have your kids in the car with you , and your dog , too , and for sure you'd be right in front of the local gas station when it decides to die , and of course , you can't just plug it in because you need one of those really expensive plug things to charge it up , like the one you had to get those high priced electricians to install in your house when you got the car , so , you're stuck there for the duration , until the auto club arrives , when you hope they'll believe you that you are a member , because you don't have your card .
How embarrassing .

For crying out loud , just use gas . It's so much simpler .

I hear you buddy, but soon the world reserve of crude oil would run out. Before it does the price will rice so high, you would have to sell a kidney to fill up and the road tax would be so high for fuel powered cars such that you would have to sell another organ to drive your car legally on the road. The alternative would be to run your car on high grade whisky or cheap alternative brewed in your kitchen.

Lets face it dude, electric and hybrid are the future. They are irritatingly quiet and barely stirs the soul compared to harping around in a petrol powered car, but we would have to get use to it.

[Bagwan]

I hear you buddy, but soon the world reserve of crude oil would run out. Before it does the price will rice so high, you would have to sell a kidney to fill up and the road tax would be so high for fuel powered cars such that you would have to sell another organ to drive your car legally on the road. The alternative would be to run your car on high grade whisky or cheap alternative brewed in your kitchen.

Lets face it dude, electric and hybrid are the future. They are irritatingly quiet and barely stirs the soul compared to harping around in a petrol powered car, but we would have to get use to it.

Soon ? I don't know .
It's pumping extra fast right now , it seems , to scuttle the natural gas push .
Call it a glut . It's cheap , relatively , just cheap enough .

It all just shows that big oil is big , and that it affects great influence on us all , even if we don't realize it .
Around me , they put up wind turbines that allow them to sell more gas , and most of the public sees it as green .
These are "fart smuckers" we're dealing with here .

[dj_bytedisaster]

The thing about hybrid tech is, that due to how the batteries are made, they have a desastrous ecological foot print. They make American pickup trucks look like eco-mobiles. If you really want to innovate, invest in building the infrastructure for hydrogen storage and sell cars with hydrogen fuel cells. Never understood why that isn't the way Formula-E has gone. Sure, once free development is allowed in FE there will come the point when they run the whole race on three AA batteries, but not matter how you look at it, the battery will always be the second best solution to just using the most common element in the universe - hydrogen.

[Nitrodaze]

The thing about hybrid tech is, that due to how the batteries are made, they have a desastrous ecological foot print. They make American pickup trucks look like eco-mobiles. If you really want to innovate, invest in building the infrastructure for hydrogen storage and sell cars with hydrogen fuel cells. Never understood why that isn't the way Formula-E has gone. Sure, once free development is allowed in FE there will come the point when they run the whole race on three AA batteries, but not matter how you look at it, the battery will always be the second best solution to just using the most common element in the universe - hydrogen.

Fuel cell engines are the next evolutionary step. This type of engine is a complete self sufficient engine to which you just add water and you can drive till the cows come home. How it works is the engine breaks down water into hydrogen and oxygen which it then supplies to the ice unit which combusts it as fuel. The exhaust passes through a condenser that converts the steam back into water which is recycled for breakdown.

I think a cheap solution for breaking down water into hydrogen and oxygen is yet to be found. If it has, l am sure one of the car manufacturers would be offering cars with fuelcell to corner the market.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Fuel cell engines are the next evolutionary step. This type of engine is a complete self sufficient engine to which you just add water and you can drive till the cows come home.

What you tried to describe is a perpetuum mobile, which we all know, sort of doesn't work. Oh and there is a very easy and cheap solution to crack down water - it's called electrolysis. Just dip two cathodes into water - e voila...
Fuel cell cars, such as the Honda Clarity have a gas tank and take in hydrogen. That is the main obstacle for the fuel cell engine. Nobody wants to invest the money needed to store hydrogen safely.

And fuel cell cars don't have an ICE. The fuel cell provides electricity which then powers an electic motor

The Axis powers actually have fuel-cell U boats already ;)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_212_submarine

[Nitrodaze]

What you tried to describe is a perpetuum mobile, which we all know, sort of doesn't work. Oh and there is a very easy and cheap solution to crack down water - it's called electrolysis. Just dip two cathodes into water - e voila...
Fuel cell cars, such as the Honda Clarity have a gas tank and take in hydrogen. That is the main obstacle for the fuel cell engine. Nobody wants to invest the money needed to store hydrogen safely.

And fuel cell cars don't have an ICE. The fuel cell provides electricity which then powers an electic motor

The Axis powers actually have fuel-cell U boats already ;)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_212_submarine

Actually we are talking about the same thing. The Hydrogen cycled through the fuelcell is ideally suppose to be one of the by products the the process which is recycled. It is not yet cost efficient to produce mass customer fuelcell engines that meet the stringent regulation for such a potentially highly explosive unit .

I did not say it does not exist, just that a cost efficient solution is yet to be found.

[The Black Knight]

Well, at least the F1 Commission has voted against pursuing the Budget Engine idea for 2017. This is a relief given what an absurd idea it was to begin with:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/121957

[zako85]

The thing about hybrid tech is, that due to how the batteries are made, they have a desastrous ecological foot print.

The ecological impact of the battery production can be localized to a specific geographic location where barely anyone lives. Moreover, the negative ecological impact from battery production is outweighed by the benefits, such as lower carbon footprint and lower emissions over the life of the vehicle. Air pollution has a great impact on health of many people in the large metropolises. Simply getting more people to drive a hybrid car in places like Los Angeles or Houston in USA could have a huge impact on health of population there.

[Nitrodaze]

Well, at least the F1 Commission has voted against pursuing the Budget Engine idea for 2017. This is a relief given what an absurd idea it was to begin with:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/121957

I suppose we have to wait and see what proposals the manufacturing teams put to the next steering commitee review to be able to say this is resolved and finalized. Interestingly, AER says they already have a 2.2 litre engine that meets the initial spec put out to tender. And the beat goes on "tra la la la"

[AndyL]

I find it more than a bit odd that nobody seems to promote the fact that the series is actually moving towards a more eco-friendly future with it's hybrid PUs .
It's almost never mentioned , except in conversations that stem from it being too expensive .

They've done some pretty incredible things with energy recovery and nobody seems to want to crow about it at all .
Seems crazy to me .

Looks like Andy Cowell of Mercedes has been listening to you: http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2015/11/f1-v6-turbos-are-more-powerful-than-v8s-or-v10s-says-mercedes-engine-boss/

[Rollo]

Air pollution has a great impact on health of many people in the large metropolises. Simply getting more people to drive a hybrid car in places like Los Angeles or Houston in USA could have a huge impact on health of population there.

America chose Air Pollution and then voted for it.

If places like Los Angeles had spent similar sorts of money on public transport as it had on freeways, the cars wouldn't be on the road in the first place. One nine car train might pull off two thousand cars off the road.

[dj_bytedisaster]

America chose Air Pollution and then voted for it.

If places like Los Angeles had spent similar sorts of money on public transport as it had on freeways, the cars wouldn't be on the road in the first place. One nine car train might pull off two thousand cars off the road.


Public transport doesn't work in 'murrica. You can't kill Niggers riding a train.