Where does Nico Rosberg go from here?

[steveaki13]

Just as an interesting subject.

He appears pretty confused in interviews about his error which he says he has never made before ever and cant understand it. He says Lewis was far too aggressive in his turn one move.

He looks tired and shattered after this.

So for him as he moves into 2016 and a likely dominant car again. How does he try and beat Lewis who appears to have increased his margin over him slightly in 2015. I know he has had bad luck and issues, but generally he has not matched and beaten Lewis as often this season.

Where and how does Nico develop for the future.

[steveaki13]

Then it is interesting about the cap throwing in the warm down room. Nico says it was games.

Does he mean Lewis throwing a cap at him saying P2 on the side, or him messing and throwing it back.

It all seems Nico has really been mad tonight.

[driveace]

I think that Nico Rosberg lost a lot of support tonight by his childish attitude that all TV viewers witnessed as did the American spectators.There was no fun or joke involved.Lewis lightly tossed his cap over,and Rosberg hurled,it back actually hitting Hamilton ,Hamilton didn't respond ,but Paddy stared madly at Rosberg ,and on the podium Paddy took Rosbergs Champagne and sprayed Lewis and congratulated him as did Vettel.At no time did Rosberg congratulate Hamilton either pre podium or on the podium .Vettel this year has gone up in my estimation,and Rosberg has dropped a very long way.What I would really love to see is Hamilton and Vettel as team mates That would be brilliant racing

[zako85]

There are two possibilities:

1. Rosberg continues the same way in 2016.
2. Rosberg puts on a "Barrichello smile" during the interviews

[Nitrodaze]

I trade the FOREX market and occasionally there are times when you do your analysis and you are certain you have cornered an opportunity but for reasons outside your control the market just simply go the other way and l see my well laid plan disintegrate into a loss of money. That helpless empty feeling is what it must feel like for Rosberg to find that the fight for the title is over before the end of the season. All further potential to snatch the title is gone.
I do not find his reaction inappropriate nor has he lost my appreciation. His disappointment is the proper reaction as it shows that he consider himself world championship material and is simply showing that he is hungry for the opportunity to win the next title.
If the role was reversed, Hamilton would feel the same way but may have the courtesy of conceding defeat with more magnanimity.

You have to remember that Rosberg had the larger share of DNF due to reliability and had started a new family this season. Supporting his pregnant wife and the arrival of a baby all has their toll on his competitive edge. This accounts partially for the gap between himself and Hamilton. The other reason of course was Hamilton upped his game this season by fixing his major weaknesses of 2014; particularly his qualifying. The single guy is always going to beat the newly wed, new dad due to the difference in focus and commitment.

Rosberg would bounce back in 2016, and he must fix his weaknesses of 2015 to have a chance to take on Hamilton and beat him next season. He has to find some on track toughness and aggression to be in with a shout of winning the drivers world title with Hamilton in the same car.

[Mark]

Always the same isn't it for the 'number 2 driver'. Stay in the fast car, get on the podium regularly and occasional wins, but then be constantly beaten by your team mate. Or go to a lesser team where you'll be No. 1 but the best you can hope for is 5th or 6th?

[Rollo]

Moss, Berger, Barichello, Webber... good enough to win races but not a championship.
Or is Rosberg like Prost or Senna, who stood out from behind a world champion (Prost with Lauda; Senna with Prost).

Rosberg has been in the game ten years; which is usually too late to win a first championship. Only Mansell, Andretti and Button have gone a decade before they did eventually win a world championship.
Time might have run out for Rosberg. He might have to shake his head harder to be rid of the No.2 hat.

[ShiftingGears]

The cap throw from Hamilton was patronising and unnecessary.

[Mintexmemory]

Moss, Berger, Barichello, Webber... good enough to win races but not a championship.
Or is Rosberg like Prost or Senna, who stood out from behind a world champion (Prost with Lauda; Senna with Prost).

Rosberg has been in the game ten years; which is usually too late to win a first championship. Only Mansell, Andretti and Button have gone a decade before they did eventually win a world championship.
Time might have run out for Rosberg. He might have to shake his head harder to be rid of the No.2 hat.

Remembering that in Andretti's case that wasn't a decade of uninterrupted F1 participation - he also had the best wingman of all time in his champ season, Rosberg would do well to study Ronnie's career to see how a real racer performs and behaves.

As for getting married as an excuse for under-performing - meh. LH also had personal turmoils with his emotional life last season, didn't see anyone cutting him slack. Everything about Rosberg's demeanour says -'this is not how it was supposed to pan out!'

[Bagwan]

The cap throw from Hamilton was patronising and unnecessary.

That is absolutely true .
It was like saying "Here , put your #2 hat on , boy ."

He knew Nico was pi$$ed , and he knew why .

They've talked about this too many times before , and Nico is right to be angry .
Toto said he understood why Nico acted as he did , and they will speak about it once again .

Interesting that Kimi seems to be of the same opinion as Nico , wanting some clarity about whether it's ok to push people off track , sliding down the inside .
Having tried it down the inside of Bottas last race , and was obviously told that he must leave room for another car outside .


I think the both of them need to mouth off about this some more so that we can have some clarity here .
Hamilton said he knew that Nico would have more grip , yet he thought it was ok that he understeered into him . I don't get where that isn't an admission of knowingly causing a collision .

Ugly win .

[Koz]

The thing is, I think Lewis is more liked by the guys at Mercedes than Lewis. Even before Monaco stop gate.

If their roles were reversed this race, Lauda would be furious.
I think back to Bahrain 2014 when Lewis pushed Nico off he told his engineer "tell him that's not on".

But the plain truth is Lewis is just a better driver. The only reason Rosberg was even close to Lewis last year, especially in qualifying was because of the constant coaching. As soon as that was banned, he started to lag behind.

Maybe he is WDC material, it isn't with Lewis in the team.

First in a village rather than second in Rome. Go look at Massa.

[Big Ben]

Rosberg is just not good enough. Hamilton is the better driver and also a douchebag so in normal conditions Rosberg doesn't really have much chance against him.

[Nitrodaze]

I watched the 1st corner incident a number of times, and l think it was clean racing. If you follow it from the start, Rosberg had a slightly worst start than Hamilton who got alongside Rosberg within the first three to four car lengths from the start line. Seeing this, Rosberg decides to try to squeeze Hamilton from the optimum line to make a good approach to the 1st corner difficult. On the approach to the apex of the corner, Hamilton was marginally ahead and on the inner racing line with Rosberg on the outer line which was always not going to be the position of advantage. Because Rosberg had compromised Hamitons approach to the apex, Lewis path through the apex was alway going to be a wide arch through the corner due to his compromised approach.
Rosberg took a gamble that compromising Lewis's approach would hand over the advantage through the apex of the corner but he was not well positioned to take advantage because he had already lost the advantage before the approach to the corner by not being ahead and not successfully seizing the racing line. He arrived at the corner at a vulnerable position and it was always going to be an egg in the face situation being on the outside at the apex and not being ahead.

If you can take an objective unbiased look at the incident, you would find that it was a clean maneuver but unfortunate for Rosberg that it did not work out for him.

A similar manuever re-occurred further into the race, this time with Rosberg clearly ahead and Hamilton gave him plenty of room for Rosberg to complete the overtake maneuver. It was all fair but hard racing, one of the very best this season.

[N4D13]

I have a soft spot for Rosberg, so my view might be biased (as much as the next guy's, anyway), but here's my opinion.

I believe that Rosberg is a great driver and one that might have actually become a WDC already had he not had Lewis as a teammate, who is one of the all-time greats. This season Lewis has obviously had the better of Nico, particularly during the first half of the season, but Rosberg has had significantly worse luck. For instance, Nico has had two retirements in races that Lewis went on to win, whereas Lewis' only retirement came in Singapore, which was a complete clusterf*ck for Mercedes.

The last race is a fine example of Rosberg having rather bad luck. He managed to pass Hamilton on track due to his teammate having overcooked his tires, and managed to build an advantage of about 10 seconds if I recall correctly, which was then erased by the safety car. On top of that, he got the (theoretically) better strategy by stopping before Lewis; the decision not to pit Hamilton would have been a blunder if it wasn't for the late safety car. Instead of that, the second SC allowed Lewis to get a free pitstop and newer tires than his teammate. Of course it was eventually Rosberg's mistake that caused Lewis to pass him, but you'll have to concede that Lewis wouldn't have had a shot of winning the race had it not been for the two SCs.

[Jag_Warrior]

Ugly win .

To borrow a line from Jean Pierre Sarti, in the great movie, "Grand Prix": "there is no terrible way to win... there is only winning."

When Lewis said last year that he was hungrier, Nico's tendency to choke while under pressure last year and this year, pretty well demonstrates that that is true. But I've always found Nico to be a likable and sympathetic character. He is a good driver, just not a great driver. He clearly has game, or race craft. But IMO, he lacks the ability to hold it together and apply pressure to Hamilton, in particular. Maybe because Hamilton has been coming out on top against him since they were kids, Hamilton, more than any other driver, is able to "get inside his head". And maybe that self-doubt causes Rosberg to lose focus at inopportune moments.

I was a HUGE fan of the old CART series. It held my interest about as much as F1 back in the day, even when Senna was still with us. But I accepted that one of the reasons that many of my favorite CART drivers couldn't really make it in Formula One was because team politics and psychological gamesmanship were (and are) factors in F1, more so than CART.

Anyway, my guess is, based on how Ferrari has come on recently, the main battle next year for the WDC will be between Hamilton and Vettel. Nico needs to up his game just to hold off Vettel (I don't see Kimi as a threat to anyone but himself). Lewis can race wheel to wheel with Vettel. I don't believe that Nico can, not over the course of a season anyway. And next year, Mercedes may need all the points that it can get to capture another Constructor's title.

[Bagwan]

I watched the 1st corner incident a number of times, and l think it was clean racing. If you follow it from the start, Rosberg had a slightly worst start than Hamilton who got alongside Rosberg within the first three to four car lengths from the start line. Seeing this, Rosberg decides to try to squeeze Hamilton from the optimum line to make a good approach to the 1st corner difficult. On the approach to the apex of the corner, Hamilton was marginally ahead and on the inner racing line with Rosberg on the outer line which was always not going to be the position of advantage. Because Rosberg had compromised Hamitons approach to the apex, Lewis path through the apex was alway going to be a wide arch through the corner due to his compromised approach.
Rosberg took a gamble that compromising Lewis's approach would hand over the advantage through the apex of the corner but he was not well positioned to take advantage because he had already lost the advantage before the approach to the corner by not being ahead and not successfully seizing the racing line. He arrived at the corner at a vulnerable position and it was always going to be an egg in the face situation being on the outside at the apex and not being ahead.

If you can take an objective unbiased look at the incident, you would find that it was a clean maneuver but unfortunate for Rosberg that it did not work out for him.

A similar manuever re-occurred further into the race, this time with Rosberg clearly ahead and Hamilton gave him plenty of room for Rosberg to complete the overtake maneuver. It was all fair but hard racing, one of the very best this season.

Being on the inside does not make you the owner of the corner .
But Lewis clearly believes it does .
Hamilton clearly knew Rosberg was beside him .
He stated he knew that Nico had more grip where he was running , and clearly made the decision to stay with the other car knowing he would force Nico wide on that trajectory .
He did , hitting him in the process .
It was the same move as the last time , where he again had slid wide forcing his team mate off .

Even Lewis , himself , said that he knew there would be differing opinions on the move but didn't care because he'd won .

Kimi's move last race was much the same , where he just assumed the other guy would back out .
He got penalized and is now confused .
We didn't get to see the moves , but he was upset with Max's move(s) based on his penalty the previous race .

You must leave room .
If one of our resident anoraks could dig up the actual rule regarding "the squeeze" , I would be grateful .

[Bagwan]

To borrow a line from Jean Pierre Sarti, in the great movie, "Grand Prix": "there is no terrible way to win... there is only winning."

When Lewis said last year that he was hungrier, Nico's tendency to choke while under pressure last year and this year, pretty well demonstrates that that is true. But I've always found Nico to be a likable and sympathetic character. He is a good driver, just not a great driver. He clearly has game, or race craft. But IMO, he lacks the ability to hold it together and apply pressure to Hamilton, in particular. Maybe because Hamilton has been coming out on top against him since they were kids, Hamilton, more than any other driver, is able to "get inside his head". And maybe that self-doubt causes Rosberg to lose focus at inopportune moments.

I was a HUGE fan of the old CART series. It held my interest about as much as F1 back in the day, even when Senna was still with us. But I accepted that one of the reasons that many of my favorite CART drivers couldn't really make it in Formula One was because team politics and psychological gamesmanship were (and are) factors in F1, more so than CART.

Anyway, my guess is, based on how Ferrari has come on recently, the main battle next year for the WDC will be between Hamilton and Vettel. Nico needs to up his game just to hold off Vettel (I don't see Kimi as a threat to anyone but himself). Lewis can race wheel to wheel with Vettel. I don't believe that Nico can, not over the course of a season anyway. And next year, Mercedes may need all the points that it can get to capture another Constructor's title.

Maybe you're right , Jag , that it doesn't matter at the end of the day whether the Stetson you end up wearing is black or white , but rather if if it says #1 on it .

What I don't particularly like like here is that Lewis , like a few others , is pushing it too far here .

I guess it's a clever gambit , however , because he's figured out that he's got a free pass to do it because he team mate can never make formal protest .
All he has to do is take his scolding behind closed doors , with a little wink when he leaves .


It's the catch 22 for Nico , that he can't protest .
And , it's that fact that has been the Achilles heel for him , I think .
It would sure yank my chain if I were in his shoes , because I've seen lots of guys , including Lewis , allowing room for the others and not pushing people off .

You can race both hard and cleanly .


One last point that bugs me is that Lewis doesn't have to do stuff like this .
He could still win with a white hat .

[henners88]

The cap throw from Hamilton was patronising and unnecessary.

I don't think it was meant that way. He passed one to Seb just off camera and tossed the other towards Nico's lap. Nico misunderstood the intent and reacted in a manner that made things pretty awkward.

I've seen more criticism of Nico for the cap incident but to me I think it was just a misunderstanding. Unfortunately the regular Hamilton haters have spun it with a whole new slant. It makes it embarrassing to be an F1 fan at times.

[henners88]

That is absolutely true .
It was like saying "Here , put your #2 hat on , boy ."

He knew Nico was pi$$ed , and he knew why .

They've talked about this too many times before , and Nico is right to be angry .
Toto said he understood why Nico acted as he did , and they will speak about it once again .

Interesting that Kimi seems to be of the same opinion as Nico , wanting some clarity about whether it's ok to push people off track , sliding down the inside .
Having tried it down the inside of Bottas last race , and was obviously told that he must leave room for another car outside .


I think the both of them need to mouth off about this some more so that we can have some clarity here .
Hamilton said he knew that Nico would have more grip , yet he thought it was ok that he understeered into him . I don't get where that isn't an admission of knowingly causing a collision .

Ugly win .
Although predictable and consistent, I think it's sad how people always see the bad in situations like this. Just applaud a deserving drive and championship. Nico simply wasn't good enough this year and hopefully he'll learn from this and give us a fight next year. Sore losers just make winning even more sweet at times like this.

[rjbetty]

What I don't particularly like like here is that Lewis , like a few others , is pushing it too far here.

Nah, I think it's just that you don't particularly like Lewis. Can't ever really remember you complaining about another driver.



I guess it's a clever gambit , however , because he's figured out that he's got a free pass to do it because he team mate can never make formal protest...

Well I'm ok with this cos you seem to have a good sense of justice and you're consistent. That's why you were so cut up about Monaco 2014 too.

Oh, wait... :)




I haven't seen any footage myself yet, but if Lewis has really forced Nico off track then he does kinda need to cut it out. Would really rather it wouldn't be like that. Just goes to show that even with a driver I like, no-one's utterly spotless. Even though in generally I find him one of the more honest and guileless people compared to most, which is kinda why I like him.

However I need to satisfy myself first that any criticism is valid rather than just biased people with a personal dislike just trying to find any way to put Lewis down, to the point of making something out of nothing. If someone like Jens for example comes on and says he ain't happy about turn 1, I'd pay more attention to him. Peace and good day then.

[Jag_Warrior]

Maybe you're right , Jag , that it doesn't matter at the end of the day whether the Stetson you end up wearing is black or white , but rather if if it says #1 on it .

What I don't particularly like like here is that Lewis , like a few others , is pushing it too far here .

I guess it's a clever gambit , however , because he's figured out that he's got a free pass to do it because he team mate can never make formal protest .
All he has to do is take his scolding behind closed doors , with a little wink when he leaves .


It's the catch 22 for Nico , that he can't protest .
And , it's that fact that has been the Achilles heel for him , I think .
It would sure yank my chain if I were in his shoes , because I've seen lots of guys , including Lewis , allowing room for the others and not pushing people off .

You can race both hard and cleanly .


One last point that bugs me is that Lewis doesn't have to do stuff like this .
He could still win with a white hat .

Not that I'd claim to understand Hamilton's psyche, but who is his idol? Senna. The same guy who b!tch slapped Eddie Irvine and put a finger in a young Michael Schumacher's face to establish an alpha male dominance. And who brought Lewis over to Mercedes and has been his mentor while there? King Rat, Niki Lauda - another dominant alpha male type. How has Hamilton always treated teammates who were (perceived) threats to him, even in junior formulas? Not kindly - even if they were a double world champion. Everything about him says "black hat". He even tends to sport the black Mercedes cap after the races. I think that's just who he is. But I don't think of Lewis as a true alpha male, dominant type. He seems more passive aggressive. Unlike Lauda and Senna, he's not an "in your face" kinda guy... more a sucker punch kinda guy - more like Vettel, IMO. But he's only out to win and takes no prisoners. I don't see much difference between Hamilton and Vettel, personality wise (on track).

Thinking back about the world champions over the past 25-30 years or so, I can think of only three who seemed to fit the mold of "nice guys": Damon Hill, Mika Hakkinen and Jenson Button. To varying degrees, all of the rest of them had some degree of a-hole about them. Piquet, Prost, Senna, Mansell, Schumacher, Villeneuve, Alonso, Raikkonen, Hamilton, Vettel... For better or worse, the days of the gentleman driver in F1 seem to be behind us. I think Lewis' disrespectful attitude toward Rosberg is simply a reflection of that, plus who he has idolized and what gets him what he wants. He doesn't see Nico as an equal by any means. And now, I don't think Nico sees Nico as an equal - which is what Hamilton wants. That's just like how Vettel wanted it with Webber.

The only current driver that I can think of who could probably put up with Hamilton and not be sucked into his psychological games... and even win a psychological war against him: Daniel Ricciardo. He's a real life version of Bugs Bunny. If Lewis had tossed that cap to him, he'd have probably put it on backwards, leapt up, done the cabbage patch dance and kissed Lewis on the cheek... while telling him that he better savor #3, cause he would be wearing the crown next year. But Nico? No, by his reaction, it's clear that Lewis has now taken up residence inside his head. And Lewis is not a good tenant to have living inside one's head - just like his idol and mentor weren't.

[Zico]

Interesting that Kimi seems to be of the same opinion as Nico , wanting some clarity about whether it's ok to push people off track , sliding down the inside .
Having tried it down the inside of Bottas last race , and was obviously told that he must leave room for another car outside.


Yes, it was dirty and at the time I was disapointed with Lewis for it. I hoped he'd show a bit of class and let Nico past again but I guess he didn't feel like that after Monaco and Spa... which I can also understand. How destructive to Nicos psyche would it have been for Nico though if Lewis had done the right thing, showed real sportsmanship by letting Nico past again then gone on to beat him? Something to think about Lewis.

Regarding it being ok to push people off the track.... the big difference is that Kimi/Bottas aren't team mates so rightly or wrongly they look at a bit differently like its an internal team matter. I'm struggling to remember the last time someone was punished for causing a collision/forcing a team mate off the track. Was Rosberg punished by the Stewards at Spa? I don't recall that being the case.

[Storm]

He looks tired and shattered after this.


He is lucky he has a Merc so he still has a theoritical chance next year (not!)
we had this discussion earlier too, and I and many others said that Nico is now mentally broken, but some disagreed(Mark was it you?) :uhoh:

[steveaki13]

You wonder if Ferrari improve for 2016 and can sometimes races Mercedes and push for the title. If so Lewis v Nico could hand Seb the title. I mean he dominates v Kimi whereas Nico on form can take stuff off Lewis.

If it was close would they back Lewis over Nico I wonder?

[henners88]

You wonder if Ferrari improve for 2016 and can sometimes races Mercedes and push for the title. If so Lewis v Nico could hand Seb the title. I mean he dominates v Kimi whereas Nico on form can take stuff off Lewis.

If it was close would they back Lewis over Nico I wonder?
I think Mercedes would be pretty stupid not to back lewis in a situation like that. He has after all won three world titles and they know how good he is when everything is working in his favour. Nico has made quite a few errors when under pressure these last 2 seasons and usually when Lewis is breathing down his neck. Hamilton is the stronger driver of the two and has proven this now.

[Big Ben]

Anyone else tired of the Hamilton - Senna comparison? Give me a break already. I wonder if Senna would have liked it to be constantly paired with this guy.

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

[Bagwan]

Nah, I think it's just that you don't particularly like Lewis. Can't ever really remember you complaining about another driver.



Well I'm ok with this cos you seem to have a good sense of justice and you're consistent. That's why you were so cut up about Monaco 2014 too.

Oh, wait... :)




I haven't seen any footage myself yet, but if Lewis has really forced Nico off track then he does kinda need to cut it out. Would really rather it wouldn't be like that. Just goes to show that even with a driver I like, no-one's utterly spotless. Even though in generally I find him one of the more honest and guileless people compared to most, which is kinda why I like him.

However I need to satisfy myself first that any criticism is valid rather than just biased people with a personal dislike just trying to find any way to put Lewis down, to the point of making something out of nothing. If someone like Jens for example comes on and says he ain't happy about turn 1, I'd pay more attention to him. Peace and good day then.

So , "like a few others" isn't including any others ?
Max V. would be one who Kimi complained about . But , I guess I didn't actually mention his name , did I ?

And Monaco '14 was nothing like this . Don't blur the point .

Nobody is utterly spotless , it's true , but this is consistent behavior , and as far as I'm aware , against the rules .
He get's away with it because his team mate is handcuffed , whereas Kimi gets told you must leave room , and is punished .


I am getting a little tired of having Hamilton fans tell me that it's only because I hate him that I see his driving the way I do .
Wake up , Mr. Betty .

[henners88]

Anyone else tired of the Hamilton - Senna comparison? Give me a break already. I wonder if Senna would have liked it to be constantly paired with this guy.

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

I am too to be honest. I think many people get lost in the fact Senna was a very good driver who had flaws and wasn't actually Jesus Christ. I was lucky enough to see Senna on track and I have seen Hamilton. They have both won 3 WDC's and have driven for McLaren, that is about it.

It does make me cringe when people say 'how can you mention Lewis or any other driver in the same sentence as Senna', like nobody is allowed to be worthy. Unfortunately Senna dying gave birth to a romantic legend for F1 but there are some of us who remember him as a very talented f1 driver who had an attractive personality and ego. Senna was far from the perfect F1 driver however and this is probably something he has in common with most champions. Personally f I was in Hamilton's position I would want people to compare drivers to me, not me to drivers of the past. They have their own legacy.

[henners88]

I am getting a little tired of having Hamilton fans tell me that it's only because I hate him that I see his driving the way I do .
Wake up , Mr. Betty .
You've made your own history here Bagwan so you can't blame the perceptions others have of you. I remember back in 2010 when Vettel and Hamilton went side by side down the pitlane in China. Seb swerved and tried to push Lewis towards pit crews and hanging air lines above the pit boxes. You had no problem with that behaviour because Lewis was on the receiving end. It was that argument with you and how you conducted yourself that soured my view of you and something I will never forget.

Since then you have sided against in every single incident lewis has been involved in. You don't like Hamilton at all and make no mistake of siding against him at every possible opportunity regardless of how mild. If Lewis had thrown a hat at Nico on Sunday, you would be here saying how childish it was. At least as a Hamilton fan I can see the good in Nico and acknowledge certain incidents are read wrong in the heat of the moment.

[Bagwan]

Not that I'd claim to understand Hamilton's psyche, but who is his idol? Senna. The same guy who b!tch slapped Eddie Irvine and put a finger in a young Michael Schumacher's face to establish an alpha male dominance. And who brought Lewis over to Mercedes and has been his mentor while there? King Rat, Niki Lauda - another dominant alpha male type. How has Hamilton always treated teammates who were (perceived) threats to him, even in junior formulas? Not kindly - even if they were a double world champion. Everything about him says "black hat". He even tends to sport the black Mercedes cap after the races. I think that's just who he is. But I don't think of Lewis as a true alpha male, dominant type. He seems more passive aggressive. Unlike Lauda and Senna, he's not an "in your face" kinda guy... more a sucker punch kinda guy - more like Vettel, IMO. But he's only out to win and takes no prisoners. I don't see much difference between Hamilton and Vettel, personality wise (on track).

Thinking back about the world champions over the past 25-30 years or so, I can think of only three who seemed to fit the mold of "nice guys": Damon Hill, Mika Hakkinen and Jenson Button. To varying degrees, all of the rest of them had some degree of a-hole about them. Piquet, Prost, Senna, Mansell, Schumacher, Villeneuve, Alonso, Raikkonen, Hamilton, Vettel... For better or worse, the days of the gentleman driver in F1 seem to be behind us. I think Lewis' disrespectful attitude toward Rosberg is simply a reflection of that, plus who he has idolized and what gets him what he wants. He doesn't see Nico as an equal by any means. And now, I don't think Nico sees Nico as an equal - which is what Hamilton wants. That's just like how Vettel wanted it with Webber.

The only current driver that I can think of who could probably put up with Hamilton and not be sucked into his psychological games... and even win a psychological war against him: Daniel Ricciardo. He's a real life version of Bugs Bunny. If Lewis had tossed that cap to him, he'd have probably put it on backwards, leapt up, done the cabbage patch dance and kissed Lewis on the cheek... while telling him that he better savor #3, cause he would be wearing the crown next year. But Nico? No, by his reaction, it's clear that Lewis has now taken up residence inside his head. And Lewis is not a good tenant to have living inside one's head - just like his idol and mentor weren't.

I can't disagree with much of that , Jag , though , I think there have been a few times that Nico has been inside Lewis's helmet , too .
I don't think Lewis is in the same league as most of the dominant ones you mentioned , though , but he's found an issue has really gotten to Nico .
It's his kryptonite , and now that he's seen it take a title away from him , he should face it up , and make some stern inquiries with Charlie , to find out what is really allowable and what is not .

[Bagwan]

You've made your own history here Bagwan so you can't blame the perceptions others have of you. I remember back in 2010 when Vettel and Hamilton went side by side down the pitlane in China. Seb swerved and tried to push Lewis towards pit crews and hanging air lines above the pit boxes. You had no problem with that behaviour because Lewis was on the receiving end. It was that argument with you and how you conducted yourself that soured my view of you and something I will never forget.

Since then you have sided against in every single incident lewis has been involved in. You don't like Hamilton at all and make no mistake of siding against him at every possible opportunity regardless of how mild. If Lewis had thrown a hat at Nico on Sunday, you would be here saying how childish it was. At least as a Hamilton fan I can see the good in Nico and acknowledge certain incidents are read wrong in the heat of the moment.

Oh , man , you can wake up , too , henners .

Don't deal with the real issue .
Just attack me for hating Lewis .
Go ahead .

Don't actually submit any defense of his driving tactics .
Why would you ?

After all , it's way easier to call me a hater than to actually defend a driver running another off the track , isn't it ?

If you can't bother to do anything other than tell me how much I hate your favourite driver , then don't bother replying again .


As to Nico throwing the hat , I thought neither guy had any claim to class in the situation .
They both threw the hat .

[anfield5]

The gist of the thread seems to be Rosberg moaning about being bullied off the track at the start. In all honesty it was a bad move from Hamilton and if they were not in the same team there would have been a penalty. It astounds me the way Hamilton can be, he is the first to moan to the team when anyone else gets within 3 feet of him, but he is often the first to make moves like this, so Nico had some cause to be bitter. On the other hand it is part of racing, and Nico lost the race because he slid off track in the closing stages, so he has nothing to moan about anyway.

As to Rosberg's future. He is a number 2 driver, not a team leader. As a number two he does a great job, usually finishing just behind the team leader, and able to win the odd race. He needs to be happy with this, because this is what he is. If he wants top spot in a team hed will need to move down the grid, because the same situation would be seen at Ferrari, Red Bull, McLaren and Williams. I would also guess that he would fall behind either of the Force India drivers if he were put along side them

[steveaki13]

Since when did drivers running a rival out of road become a terrible crime?

I remember Montoya getting upset at M. Schumacher doing it at Imola, Kimi did it too Schumi at Melboure. It must have happened loads. Yes some may not like it but really its hard but always happens.

Nico should try and do the same to Lewis.

If you are on the inside you dont own the corner, but can take the line you choose. Its hard to justify in some ways, but also its silly to try and stop.

As I say. Nico needs to try and get into position to do it and then he will win.

[steveaki13]

if they were not in the same team there would have been a penalty.



This is a worry. I mean if its a penalty its a penalty however it should not be.

Way to many penalties these days. F1 is not a non contact sport. People have always banged wheels. However the last 5 years or so has seen a massive increase in silly penalties.

[henners88]

Since when did drivers running a rival out of road become a terrible crime?

I remember Montoya getting upset at M. Schumacher doing it at Imola, Kimi did it too Schumi at Melboure. It must have happened loads. Yes some may not like it but really its hard but always happens.

Nico should try and do the same to Lewis.

If you are on the inside you dont own the corner, but can take the line you choose. Its hard to justify in some ways, but also its silly to try and stop.

As I say. Nico needs to try and get into position to do it and then he will win.

Exactly. As long as they are not ploughing into each other and causing silly damage it is fine. Putting your car in a position to force the other driver to react is part of racing and always has been.

Incidents like this draw emotion depending on who is involved and goalposts are moved to suit.

Rosberg has lost two championships in a row now and at some point will be expected to play second fiddle. Let them race but the team surely have to favour the better driver mid to late season in future.

[rjbetty]

Right then.


Yes, it was dirty and at the time I was disapointed with Lewis for it. I hoped he'd show a bit of class and let Nico past again but I guess he didn't feel like that after Monaco and Spa... which I can also understand. How destructive to Nicos psyche would it have been for Nico though if Lewis had done the right thing, showed real sportsmanship by letting Nico past again then gone on to beat him? Something to think about Lewis.

THIS! I would rather he'd done it that way. This is one of the reasons I always liked Fisi so much, cos he didn't seem to have a devious bone in his body, was totally fair, no mind games, and when he beat a driver you knew it was purely on talent.


So , "like a few others" isn't including any others ?
Max V. would be one who Kimi complained about . But , I guess I didn't actually mention his name , did I ?

And Monaco '14 was nothing like this . Don't blur the point .

Max Verstappen is another one I've noticed who there seems to be an inordinate dislike for. As it happens, I don't love every aspect of the attitude he's shown.

I'm absolutely not trying to blur any point, my sincere feelings are that it seems unfair to be entirely happy to see how Lewis was screwed at Monaco, but then cry blue murder over a (every?) small or non-existent issue on Hamilton's end. Just doesn't seem quite honest. :/

I'm not going to nag everyone to post the way I'd like, just pointing out somethin'.



Nobody is utterly spotless , it's true , but this is consistent behavior , and as far as I'm aware , against the rules .
He get's away with it because his team mate is handcuffed , whereas Kimi gets told you must leave room , and is punished .

Well if it becomes clear that Lewis really is taking it too far (Nico being unhappy doesn't necessarily mean anything is wrong) rather than some just trying to make an issue out of anything concerning Lewis, then yes I would like someone to have a word and it be stopped.

I've never been a fan of "hanging out to dry", exceeding track limits or any of that stuff that's allowed. Back in 2000 in particular, people had an issue with Schumacher always moving over off the start line. I loved Schumacher but didn't particularly care for that stuff even though it was legal. In a perfect world I would love every fight to be like Ricciardo and Alonso at Hockenheim last year.

Again this is why I liked Fisi so much; even though he wasn't great in a wheel-to-wheel scrap (Villeneuve labelling him 'bad') I couldn't get any sense he was malicious.



I am getting a little tired of having Hamilton fans tell me that it's only because I hate him that I see his driving the way I do .
Wake up , Mr. Betty .

Well it really does look that way tbh, just sayin :/

(No-one's completely free of bias but I like to think I least try)

[Duncan]

The only current driver that I can think of who could probably put up with Hamilton and not be sucked into his psychological games... and even win a psychological war against him: Daniel Ricciardo. He's a real life version of Bugs Bunny. If Lewis had tossed that cap to him, he'd have probably put it on backwards, leapt up, done the cabbage patch dance and kissed Lewis on the cheek... while telling him that he better savor #3, cause he would be wearing the crown next year. But Nico? No, by his reaction, it's clear that Lewis has now taken up residence inside his head. And Lewis is not a good tenant to have living inside one's head - just like his idol and mentor weren't.

Nice... LOL

[The Black Knight]

Not that I'd claim to understand Hamilton's psyche, but who is his idol? Senna. The same guy who b!tch slapped Eddie Irvine and put a finger in a young Michael Schumacher's face to establish an alpha male dominance. And who brought Lewis over to Mercedes and has been his mentor while there? King Rat, Niki Lauda - another dominant alpha male type. How has Hamilton always treated teammates who were (perceived) threats to him, even in junior formulas? Not kindly - even if they were a double world champion. Everything about him says "black hat". He even tends to sport the black Mercedes cap after the races. I think that's just who he is. But I don't think of Lewis as a true alpha male, dominant type. He seems more passive aggressive. Unlike Lauda and Senna, he's not an "in your face" kinda guy... more a sucker punch kinda guy - more like Vettel, IMO. But he's only out to win and takes no prisoners. I don't see much difference between Hamilton and Vettel, personality wise (on track).

Thinking back about the world champions over the past 25-30 years or so, I can think of only three who seemed to fit the mold of "nice guys": Damon Hill, Mika Hakkinen and Jenson Button. To varying degrees, all of the rest of them had some degree of a-hole about them. Piquet, Prost, Senna, Mansell, Schumacher, Villeneuve, Alonso, Raikkonen, Hamilton, Vettel... For better or worse, the days of the gentleman driver in F1 seem to be behind us. I think Lewis' disrespectful attitude toward Rosberg is simply a reflection of that, plus who he has idolized and what gets him what he wants. He doesn't see Nico as an equal by any means. And now, I don't think Nico sees Nico as an equal - which is what Hamilton wants. That's just like how Vettel wanted it with Webber.

The only current driver that I can think of who could probably put up with Hamilton and not be sucked into his psychological games... and even win a psychological war against him: Daniel Ricciardo. He's a real life version of Bugs Bunny. If Lewis had tossed that cap to him, he'd have probably put it on backwards, leapt up, done the cabbage patch dance and kissed Lewis on the cheek... while telling him that he better savor #3, cause he would be wearing the crown next year. But Nico? No, by his reaction, it's clear that Lewis has now taken up residence inside his head. And Lewis is not a good tenant to have living inside one's head - just like his idol and mentor weren't.

LOL This gave me a real good laugh and you're probably right. There is massive psychology involved in all levels of sport no matter what sport you follow, whether it be soccer, tennis etc I haven't really noticed Hamilton trying to out-psyche Rosberg that much. At the end of the day, I think that Rosberg will rue intentionally taking Hamilton out of Spa last year because to me that was the turning point. That really ruffled Lewis's feathers, so he got his head down and said, "Right, this is war and I am going to destroy this guy". Ever since then Lewis hasn't looked back and, apart from one or two races here and there, Rosberg has been nowhere near Hamilton's pace. I honestly feel that was the turning point of that partnership as Lewis knows he has the beating of Rosberg anyway so he just decide enough is enough and this guy is going down.

The only driver I can think of whom has won a world championship that maybe didn't have that psychological edge over their teammate was Damon Hill because that was Jacques first year in the sport and he was learning the ropes so to speak at the time anyway.

The whole hat incident after the race has been blown completely out of proportion and I think Nico was more annoyed at himself because he threw away the race than anything else. One thing I noticed from the press conference is that Nico looked a very Jaded man. He looked emotionally and physically beaten, which is the first time I have seen that from him. I think he realizes now that he is not going to be able to win a WDC with Hamilton in the same team as him because Hamilton is simply better.

One thing people need to realize is that these guys are all human beings and I don't think there is ever anyone whom can win a WDC and please everyone. Incidents such as the first corner in Austin which I would regard as hard racing, others regard as foul play by Hamilton. I'd have been completely okay with it were Hamilton on the outside and Rosberg the inside and that happened. That is just part of racing and sometimes your wheels rub. Now if Hammy had tried to take Rosberg out of it I'd say it was foul play but how anyone can look at that first lap incident in Austin and blame Hamilton and then look at Spa last year and not blame Rosberg just stinks of serious double standards.

[Mia 01]

I Think Kimi will put up a fight next time, ehhh, Max. Please Nico, don´t hold your hand up. And, there was a smirk little smile on Wolf and Laudas faces right after the first corner incident.

http://planetf1.com/news/raikkonen-calls-for-clarification/

[Rollo]

As to Rosberg's future. He is a number 2 driver, not a team leader. As a number two he does a great job, usually finishing just behind the team leader, and able to win the odd race. He needs to be happy with this, because this is what he is. If he wants top spot in a team hed will need to move down the grid

There is the obvious solution... he could put in the extra hours like someone like Senna did and learn every single technical aspect of the car and then beat Hamilton by simply finding that 1%.

If Rosberg moves to any other team, he's sunk. Even being No.1 at Ferarri ain't going to help him a gnat's nadger. He needs to beat Hamilton at Hamilton's game by being faster... somehow.

[Nitrodaze]

Being on the inside does not make you the owner of the corner .
But Lewis clearly believes it does .
Hamilton clearly knew Rosberg was beside him .
He stated he knew that Nico had more grip where he was running , and clearly made the decision to stay with the other car knowing he would force Nico wide on that trajectory .
He did , hitting him in the process .
It was the same move as the last time , where he again had slid wide forcing his team mate off .

Even Lewis , himself , said that he knew there would be differing opinions on the move but didn't care because he'd won .

Kimi's move last race was much the same , where he just assumed the other guy would back out .
He got penalized and is now confused .
We didn't get to see the moves , but he was upset with Max's move(s) based on his penalty the previous race .

You must leave room .
If one of our resident anoraks could dig up the actual rule regarding "the squeeze" , I would be grateful .

OK Look at it from another perspective. If it was Alonso or Vettel in Hamilton's position what do you think they would do?
I would bet my last dollar on them doing what it takes to get ahead after the corner. This, l guarantee you, would include running Rosberg off the track. This is racing, not a popularity contest. What you saw there was what separates the great drivers from the rest.

If look at the advantages of the relative positions of both driver as they approached the apex of the corner and then through the corner, you would see that Rosbergs positioning was increasingly becoming weaker as they got to the apex. But he had over-committed, hence had no choice but go through the corner with the hope of getting a better drive out of the corner, but doing so knowing his position was increasingly at risk of being vulnerable to the Redbull behind.

I think in the damp conditions of Austin, a tighter line through the corner would have been problematic for Hamilton and may have cost him more than a loss of one position. The wider path was the optimum path through that corner. As it went, that incident had very little bearing on the outcome of the race. This is not a Hamilton thing, any driver worth anything, in Hamilton's position would have done exactly the same thing. Be it Alonso, Vettel or Ricciado. It is simply racing.

[Bagwan]

I Think Kimi will put up a fight next time, ehhh, Max. Please Nico, don´t hold your hand up. And, there was a smirk little smile on Wolf and Laudas faces right after the first corner incident.

http://planetf1.com/news/raikkonen-calls-for-clarification/

That's it , Mia .
He never says much but asks the right questions here .

Does being on the inside give one the right to the corner ?
Do you need to leave space ?
Are you allowed to shove someone up the curbs ?

[Nitrodaze]

Not that I'd claim to understand Hamilton's psyche, but who is his idol? Senna. The same guy who b!tch slapped Eddie Irvine and put a finger in a young Michael Schumacher's face to establish an alpha male dominance. And who brought Lewis over to Mercedes and has been his mentor while there? King Rat, Niki Lauda - another dominant alpha male type. How has Hamilton always treated teammates who were (perceived) threats to him, even in junior formulas? Not kindly - even if they were a double world champion. Everything about him says "black hat". He even tends to sport the black Mercedes cap after the races. I think that's just who he is. But I don't think of Lewis as a true alpha male, dominant type. He seems more passive aggressive. Unlike Lauda and Senna, he's not an "in your face" kinda guy... more a sucker punch kinda guy - more like Vettel, IMO. But he's only out to win and takes no prisoners. I don't see much difference between Hamilton and Vettel, personality wise (on track).

Thinking back about the world champions over the past 25-30 years or so, I can think of only three who seemed to fit the mold of "nice guys": Damon Hill, Mika Hakkinen and Jenson Button. To varying degrees, all of the rest of them had some degree of a-hole about them. Piquet, Prost, Senna, Mansell, Schumacher, Villeneuve, Alonso, Raikkonen, Hamilton, Vettel... For better or worse, the days of the gentleman driver in F1 seem to be behind us. I think Lewis' disrespectful attitude toward Rosberg is simply a reflection of that, plus who he has idolized and what gets him what he wants. He doesn't see Nico as an equal by any means. And now, I don't think Nico sees Nico as an equal - which is what Hamilton wants. That's just like how Vettel wanted it with Webber.

The only current driver that I can think of who could probably put up with Hamilton and not be sucked into his psychological games... and even win a psychological war against him: Daniel Ricciardo. He's a real life version of Bugs Bunny. If Lewis had tossed that cap to him, he'd have probably put it on backwards, leapt up, done the cabbage patch dance and kissed Lewis on the cheek... while telling him that he better savor #3, cause he would be wearing the crown next year. But Nico? No, by his reaction, it's clear that Lewis has now taken up residence inside his head. And Lewis is not a good tenant to have living inside one's head - just like his idol and mentor weren't.


Some people think it is ok to use color codes to define situations. Black hat for badies and white hat for goodies. I personally think this sort of thing is a subtle way of doing racism. Especially when the person who is subject of the discussion happen to be what some people call black.

We are taliking about racing. And those that become world champions do not take prisoners. You would see that in Micheal Schumacher who was the ultimate Red Hat, or Vettel who was the most successful Blue Hat to date or Alonso who was a Renault's most successful Yellow Hat.
I don't remember anyone calling these guy's black hats when they were dominating their teammates and the rest of the field.

This is racing, sometimes there are tough moments and purely ecstatic moments. Austin delivered both in bucket loads.

[Bagwan]

OK Look at it from another perspective. If it was Alonso or Vettel in Hamilton's position what do you think they would do?
I would bet my last dollar on them doing what it takes to get ahead after the corner. This, l guarantee you, would include running Rosberg off the track. This is racing, not a popularity contest. What you saw there was what separates the great drivers from the rest.

If look at the advantages of the relative positions of both driver as they approached the apex of the corner and then through the corner, you would see that Rosbergs positioning was increasingly becoming weaker as they got to the apex. But he had over-committed, hence had no choice but go through the corner with the hope of getting a better drive out of the corner, but doing so knowing his position was increasingly at risk of being vulnerable to the Redbull behind.

I think in the damp conditions of Austin, a tighter line through the corner would have been problematic for Hamilton and may have cost him more than a loss of one position. The wider path was the optimum path through that corner. As it went, that incident had very little bearing on the outcome of the race. This is not a Hamilton thing, any driver worth anything, in Hamilton's position would have done exactly the same thing. Be it Alonso, Vettel or Ricciado. It is simply racing.

If you see the other guy braking longer , you can let him overspeed wide and try to get him inside .
If you are right beside him , and you know you have both the wider trajectory , and the grippier line , you know he cannot run through the corner at your speed , or he will slide into you .
It's kinda basic , the idea that you want to avoid other cars on track , as these machines are pretty fragile , and if you know (as Lewis said he did) the other guy is on the grippier line , and right beside you , you must be aware that you are likely going to hit him if you don't slow a little , to keep a tighter line , leaving space .
Lewis , as I see it , never had any intention of leaving that required space .

You have to trust the guy in the other car at the speeds they drive .

The way it looks to me is that every time Nico sees this behavior , and sees it essentially unpunished , it lets a little more air out of his balloon .


Is it simply racing ?
That's what Kimi wants to know , too .

And , hey , I guess if it's clarified and I'm told it's just racing , then fair play to Lewis , and congratulations on a hard fought championship , by all means .

[Bagwan]

Some people think it is ok to use color codes to define situations. Black hat for badies and white hat for goodies. I personally think this sort of thing is a subtle way of doing racism. Especially when the person who is subject of the discussion happen to be what some people call black.

We are taliking about racing. And those that become world champions do not take prisoners. You would see that in Micheal Schumacher who was the ultimate Red Hat, or Vettel who was the most successful Blue Hat to date or Alonso who was a Renault's most successful Yellow Hat.
I don't remember anyone calling these guy's black hats when they were dominating their teammates and the rest of the field.

This is racing, sometimes there are tough moments and purely ecstatic moments. Austin delivered both in bucket loads.

No , no , no .
I brought up the black hat here , and it was a stetson .

And , there wasn't any hint of racism in my intentions with it .

A black hat looks cooler , but gets hotter in the sun .
But , if you're trying to do some rustlin' after dark , yer gonna be spotted in that white one , and y'all might git it dirty as well , pardner .
Black hats is always gittin' away with stuff .

[Nitrodaze]

No , no , no .
I brought up the black hat here , and it was a stetson .

And , there wasn't any hint of racism in my intentions with it .

A black hat looks cooler , but gets hotter in the sun .
But , if you're trying to do some rustlin' after dark , yer gonna be spotted in that white one , and y'all might git it dirty as well , pardner .
Black hats is always gittin' away with stuff .

Glad to see your response as did not peg you to be a racist in any way. And l apologize if my comment appear to you to suggest otherwise.

[Bagwan]

Glad to see your response as did not peg you to be a racist in any way. And l apologize if my comment appear to you to suggest otherwise.

All cool , dude .

[Bagwan]

"There are internal rules in our team and I kept to those rules. Lewis did not. He went much too far."

There are rules , and then there are rules designed specifically to prevent one driver going much too far .

[Nitrodaze]

If you see the other guy braking longer , you can let him overspeed wide and try to get him inside .
If you are right beside him , and you know you have both the wider trajectory , and the grippier line , you know he cannot run through the corner at your speed , or he will slide into you .
It's kinda basic , the idea that you want to avoid other cars on track , as these machines are pretty fragile , and if you know (as Lewis said he did) the other guy is on the grippier line , and right beside you , you must be aware that you are likely going to hit him if you don't slow a little , to keep a tighter line , leaving space .
Lewis , as I see it , never had any intention of leaving that required space .

You have to trust the guy in the other car at the speeds they drive .

The way it looks to me is that every time Nico sees this behavior , and sees it essentially unpunished , it lets a little more air out of his balloon .


Is it simply racing ?
That's what Kimi wants to know , too .

And , hey , I guess if it's clarified and I'm told it's just racing , then fair play to Lewis , and congratulations on a hard fought championship , by all means .

I took another couple of looks at the start and l have to agree that it was a tough elbowing maneuver by Hamilton. But my point was that Rosberg put himself in that position by having a bad start which put Hamilton along side him before the approach to the corner. Rosberg had lost the advantage of starting at pole at that point. From then on it was sheer desperation to hang on to get something out the apex of the corner and Hamilton could see the loss of advantage and the position was there for the taking.

You have to watch it again and look at Kyvat's line into the corner. Kyvat's line is closer to the proper line through the corner, but it is the slower line as he initially gained advantage on his teammate who took the wider line going into the corner but lost the advantage coming out of the corner. But he got a better drive through the next corner to pass Ricciado.

Hence l concede that Hamilton could have left more room for Rosberg, but at the expense of losing the advantage coming out of the corner. This is the junction where the racing instinct of champions kick in. For the rest of my explanation, l would swap in Alonso for Hamilton.
So Alonso finds himself at the apex of the corner alongside his teammate and he knows he had gained advantage into the corner by a nose. He knew he could give his teammate a little more room, but his analysis tells him that such a move would hand over the advantage to his teammate coming out of the corner and possibly expose him to attack from behind.
What would Alonso do in this circumstances where there was a race win and possibly clinching world title was on the cards?

The racer in Alonso would do what it takes to get ahead coming out of that corner. So would Vettel, Schumacher, Lauder, Senna, Prost etc. THIS MY FRIENDS IS RACING plain and simple. Not a tea party or a friendly game of cards.

[Bagwan]

I took another couple of looks at the start and l have to agree that it was a tough elbowing maneuver by Hamilton. But my point was that Rosberg put himself in that position by having a bad start which put Hamilton along side him before the approach to the corner. Rosberg had lost the advantage of starting at pole at that point. From then on it was sheer desperation to hang on to get something out the apex of the corner and Hamilton could see the loss of advantage and the position was there for the taking.

You have to watch it again and look at Kyvat's line into the corner. Kyvat's line is closer to the proper line through the corner, but it is the slower line as he initially gained advantage on his teammate who took the wider line going into the corner but lost the advantage coming out of the corner. But he got a better drive through the next corner to pass Ricciado.

Hence l concede that Hamilton could have left more room for Rosberg, but at the expense of losing the advantage coming out of the corner. This is the junction where the racing instinct of champions kick in. For the rest of my explanation, l would swap in Alonso for Hamilton.
So Alonso finds himself at the apex of the corner alongside his teammate and he knows he had gained advantage into the corner by a nose. He knew he could give his teammate a little more room, but his analysis tells him that such a move would hand over the advantage to his teammate coming out of the corner and possibly expose him to attack from behind.
What would Alonso do in this circumstances where there was a race win and possibly clinching world title was on the cards?

The racer in Alonso would do what it takes to get ahead coming out of that corner. So would Vettel, Schumacher, Lauder, Senna, Prost etc. THIS MY FRIENDS IS RACING plain and simple. Not a tea party or a friendly game of cards.

I understand the need to be first , and how bad they want it .

Certainly , Nico lost the pole advantage on the way to the corner , but he was right there with Lewis on entry .

You have two choices at that point , one to brake early and get him coming out , and the other , to stay outside , forcing him to brake early , knowing that if he didn't , he would touch .
I'm pretty sure Nico knew he would slide into him , as he had in the second corner at Suzuka , but he had to keep his line outside as the Bulls were right behind , waiting to pounce .
He was forced to believe his team mate would follow both the rules of the series and the specifically designed rules within his own team .

He was on the better trajectory , and on the grippier part of the track , but got rudely punted . It's as simple as that .


Nico had the measure of Lewis this last weekend , except for that one mistake , despite having to deal with the first corner punk .

I'm sad it's over , especially this way .

[jens]

Then it is interesting about the cap throwing in the warm down room. Nico says it was games.

Does he mean Lewis throwing a cap at him saying P2 on the side, or him messing and throwing it back.

It all seems Nico has really been mad tonight.

Well yeah, he looked downbeat. And who wouldn't after throwing the race away like that in the final few laps.

As to "Where now?", a blunt answer would be the same as it was for the likes of Barrichello or Coulthard - "business as usual." If you don't have the talent to match/beat the best, the best you can do is to try to hang onto top team seats, collect podiums and on an odd occasion a win.

[Nitrodaze]

I understand the need to be first , and how bad they want it .

Certainly , Nico lost the pole advantage on the way to the corner , but he was right there with Lewis on entry .

You have two choices at that point , one to brake early and get him coming out , and the other , to stay outside , forcing him to brake early , knowing that if he didn't , he would touch .
I'm pretty sure Nico knew he would slide into him , as he had in the second corner at Suzuka , but he had to keep his line outside as the Bulls were right behind , waiting to pounce .
He was forced to believe his team mate would follow both the rules of the series and the specifically designed rules within his own team .

He was on the better trajectory , and on the grippier part of the track , but got rudely punted . It's as simple as that .


Nico had the measure of Lewis this last weekend , except for that one mistake , despite having to deal with the first corner punk .

I'm sad it's over , especially this way .

If Rosberg was ahead at the apex, he would have claimed the racing line to be in the inside for the next corner, but he was not. His only chance was for Hamilton to generously let him have the racing line and you know that was not going to happen.

Like you say, Rosberg was right there beside Hamilton but not in an advantageous position but a weak position that was going to get weaker the bigger a threat he became through the apex. It is no different to what MNassa did to Hamilton at the restart of the race after the safety car pulled in at Silverstone. Hamilton was positioned at a weak location relative to Massa who was ahead and Massa simply seized the racing line pushing Hamilton clean off the track in the process.

The first corner incident is really irrelevant, particularly since it had no bearing on the outcome of the race. I think it would have been interesting if Rosberg was able to pull off a win to keep the title fight open for a couple more races. As it went, Rosberg handed the win to Hamilton. He can blame no one else for that but himself.
If there was anything to be said, it is Rosberg let the fans down by not doing what it takes to win the race and keeping the driver championship alive for as long as possible; particularly since he clearly had the advantages to do so.

That said, l hope Hamilton helps Rosberg to claim the 2nd place spot by the end of the season. There is hard racing and there is team playing as well.

[Bagwan]

Nico has said he will treat the last few races as a mini-championship , and , since there is nothing for the team to lose but equipment , I expect Nico will assert himself in these situations when he expects the Hamilton "drive thru" window to be open .
Nothing to lose , he may try to make the point again , like at Spa 14 , now that everyone seems to get the point .

Or , maybe he'll be allowed to ask his team to protest , if he feels the need to get some clarification . It seems the only way to get a definitive answer as to whether these moves are right or wrong .

[The Black Knight]

It is sad really the way people are making such a big deal about the first corner non-incident, much like the cap-gate as its being called after the race. There really are some large amount of people out there with nothing else to do with their time than pick on the most obscure points one can possibly find and hold onto them with dear hope.

I guess it’s really just inevitable that when you’re rich, famous, popular with the ladies and talented that people will judge and begrudge you your success based on the tiny glimpses of your personality that is publicly visible, rather than talk about the success he’s had and how incredible his achievement has been coming all the way from Stevenage, having no money to what he has achieved now. It’s really an amazing story and he deserves all the success he has and he definitely deserves this and last years’ championship.

What’s more about the first corner incident is that I’m pretty sure the people who lambast Lewis here would be the first to say defend Rosberg were he the one on the inside of the corner. It was nothing more than a racing incident that has happened thousands of times in the history of F1 but because Lewis is involved, it’s a big deal suddenly. It is true that usually the greatest drivers cause the greatest controversy and divide opinion the most. That is certainly 100% the case with Lewis. The greatest driver in the sport right now, sparks controversy yet again :)

[truefan72]

It is sad really the way people are making such a big deal about the first corner non-incident, much like the cap-gate as its being called after the race. There really are some large amount of people out there with nothing else to do with their time than pick on the most obscure points one can possibly find and hold onto them with dear hope.

I guess it’s really just inevitable that when you’re rich, famous, popular with the ladies and talented that people will judge and begrudge you your success based on the tiny glimpses of your personality that is publicly visible, rather than talk about the success he’s had and how incredible his achievement has been coming all the way from Stevenage, having no money to what he has achieved now. It’s really an amazing story and he deserves all the success he has and he definitely deserves this and last years’ championship.

What’s more about the first corner incident is that I’m pretty sure the people who lambast Lewis here would be the first to say defend Rosberg were he the one on the inside of the corner. It was nothing more than a racing incident that has happened thousands of times in the history of F1 but because Lewis is involved, it’s a big deal suddenly. It is true that usually the greatest drivers cause the greatest controversy and divide opinion the most. That is certainly 100% the case with Lewis. The greatest driver in the sport right now, sparks controversy yet again :)

Well said

[Bagwan]

It is sad really the way people are making such a big deal about the first corner non-incident, much like the cap-gate as its being called after the race. There really are some large amount of people out there with nothing else to do with their time than pick on the most obscure points one can possibly find and hold onto them with dear hope.

I guess it’s really just inevitable that when you’re rich, famous, popular with the ladies and talented that people will judge and begrudge you your success based on the tiny glimpses of your personality that is publicly visible, rather than talk about the success he’s had and how incredible his achievement has been coming all the way from Stevenage, having no money to what he has achieved now. It’s really an amazing story and he deserves all the success he has and he definitely deserves this and last years’ championship.

What’s more about the first corner incident is that I’m pretty sure the people who lambast Lewis here would be the first to say defend Rosberg were he the one on the inside of the corner. It was nothing more than a racing incident that has happened thousands of times in the history of F1 but because Lewis is involved, it’s a big deal suddenly. It is true that usually the greatest drivers cause the greatest controversy and divide opinion the most. That is certainly 100% the case with Lewis. The greatest driver in the sport right now, sparks controversy yet again :)

He is a good enough driver to get it done without these controversial moves .
I'm sure you'd all agree with that .

Without them , I'd have nothing to complain about .
I'm sure you'd all like that as well .



If you all don't like the question when it involves Lewis , then tell me what Kimi wants to know .
Is it alright to push a guy onto the curbs and out or not ?

[The Black Knight]

He is a good enough driver to get it done without these controversial moves .
I'm sure you'd all agree with that .

Without them , I'd have nothing to complain about .
I'm sure you'd all like that as well .



If you all don't like the question when it involves Lewis , then tell me what Kimi wants to know .
Is it alright to push a guy onto the curbs and out or not ?

Well, you see, I don't regard it as a controversial move. I regard it as racing. In general, unless it's something malicious which was executed with clear intent(and in this case it wasn't) then I'm inclined to leave these incidents go without fear of rebuke from the stewards. Drivers are suffocated enough with rules about how they should overtake nowadays, lets not squeeze all the juice out of their balls.

I actually haven't seen clearly the incidents with Kimi and Verstappen. Before I can comment I must go back and look at them.

[Bagwan]

Well, you see, I don't regard it as a controversial move. I regard it as racing. In general, unless it's something malicious which was executed with clear intent(and in this case it wasn't) then I'm inclined to leave these incidents go without fear of rebuke from the stewards. Drivers are suffocated enough with rules about how they should overtake nowadays, lets not squeeze all the juice out of their balls.

I actually haven't seen clearly the incidents with Kimi and Verstappen. Before I can comment I must go back and look at them.

Kimi referenced his clash with Bottas last race , in regards to whether or not you are obligated to leave space .
He was told that one must , and so was penalized .
Even if one never gets to see the incident to which Kimi was referring , it is clear that he felt he was not afforded the luxury of any space , crowded onto the curbs and out .

He isn't angry about not getting the space , but just that he's been given mixed messages and wants clarity .

[Bagwan]

"With Verstapen what I wanted to know was if it's okay, when you're next another car, you're allowed to push the other car over the kerb.Obviously he's trying to defend when I'm trying to pass on the outside. It was fine, apparently it's okay, so it was fine.
As long as everybody has the same rules it doesn't matter. You have so many rules these days in Formula One, you have rules saying you shouldn't change line under braking, you should leave the other car enough room, one car space, but you're not leaving space if you're pushing the other guy wide.
I don't complain, it's fine, but it's not fine if the next time I do it to someone else, to get penalized -- that's the issue. You can do a lot of things, depending on the person, and then someone else does the same and gets penalized -- that's not fine. I don't complain about what he did today but it should be more clear, so we know what we can do and what we can't do."

It's the very same issue .
Nico's been told it's one way .
Kimi's feels like he's being told it's both , seemingly .

Neither complained , so there's no official word , but for Kim's penalty .

Which is it ?

[henners88]

The difference with Kimi is he ploughed into the side of Bottas and ended his race. That is causing a collision. Touching wheels and making somebody go wide is racing to the limit. It was cheeky what Lewis did, but Nico is regretting the fact he didn't defend the inside line. He should have learned from Suzuka really. Had Lewis taken Nico's front wing off, then a punishment would have been justified. Banging wheels is acceptable within reason and that is what needs to be made clear.

[MrJan]

Rosberg needs to get his head right, he's capable but will struggle in the same team as Lewis, just like many have before. The problem is that a) Hamilton is clearly a stronger racer when they go wheel to wheel and b) Hamilton's in his head.

As for the move and the hat incident...well the move was unfair IMO and possibly should have resulted in a 'crowding' penalty. DC often talks about "if that happened at Monaco" as a guide, and he's right. If Lewis had pulled the mirror move going in to St Devote then he'd have been penalised. And if I'd just lost a race and the WDC then I'd be pretty fucking pissed if someone threw something at me, TBH I think Nico would have been justified in giving Lewis a slap.

[The Black Knight]

"With Verstapen what I wanted to know was if it's okay, when you're next another car, you're allowed to push the other car over the kerb.Obviously he's trying to defend when I'm trying to pass on the outside. It was fine, apparently it's okay, so it was fine.
As long as everybody has the same rules it doesn't matter. You have so many rules these days in Formula One, you have rules saying you shouldn't change line under braking, you should leave the other car enough room, one car space, but you're not leaving space if you're pushing the other guy wide.
I don't complain, it's fine, but it's not fine if the next time I do it to someone else, to get penalized -- that's the issue. You can do a lot of things, depending on the person, and then someone else does the same and gets penalized -- that's not fine. I don't complain about what he did today but it should be more clear, so we know what we can do and what we can't do."

It's the very same issue .
Nico's been told it's one way .
Kimi's feels like he's being told it's both , seemingly .

Neither complained , so there's no official word , but for Kim's penalty .

Which is it ?

As henners said, there's a very, very clear difference between what happened in Sochi with Bottas and what happened with Rosberg and Hamilton. Kimi came from a large distance back and just went straight into Bottas, Lewis and Rosberg were on the side by side. Kimi was clearly at fault for what happened with Bottas and clearly Bottas could have done nothing to prevent such a banzai move. It's not as clear cut with Rosberg and Hamilton because they were both equally along side each other.

I'll try and have a look at Verstappen and Rosberg tonight and see if I can find it on my recording of the race. It's hard to comment without seeing the footage first but given Kimi's interpretation that he felt his move on Bottas was bordering on the sane I'm not holding out much hope that he's really on the right road.

[jens]

The main problem are the run-off areas. This has basically encouraged to push other drivers off and it is all viewed as okayish. If it was gravel, I'd say it is definitely NOT all right to leave other driver NO room at all and push him into the gravel. Remember, what Schumacher did to Frentzen in Canada in 1998, or many other instances. Back then it was a clear rule both cars must have room to stay within the white lines. But nowadays it has become vague due to excess amount of run-off area.

[Bagwan]

Well , where does Nico go from here ?

I would guess his next move is to go around the outside , and hold his line , to finally get an answer to his and Kimi's question .

It seems the only way to get this sorted .
You either are required to leave room or you are not .

I hope it is soon , so nobody has any doubt about what is allowed , and nobody is hurt because of this double standard .
Arguments over space at speed need clear rules .

[henners88]

Perhaps Hamilton should simply ask the question too and see if he gets let off here like Kim's has? Lewis touches wheels and puts Nico onto a run off area, resulting in him being heavily criticised here. Kimi throws a silly move up the inside of Bottas causing a nasty accident and stealing third place off the Williams driver and is treated like the voice of reason because he's asked a question? I wonder if that question would have even been asked had his incident not happened? Kimi is miffed as he was penalised, but at the end of the day he crashed heavily into another driver.

As fans we don't want to see wheel to wheel racing ended simply off the back of the more sensitive argument starters. Drivers should be able to race to the limit and bang wheels but the limit is reached when they cause an accident. It's black and white.

[Bagwan]

Kimi was asking his question about last race , not the one before .
He was being pushed out by Max , he felt .

His move the race before that was , indeed , clumsy , him sliding into the side of Bottas , but his point related to the incident because the reasoning for his having been given the penalty was that he hadn't left room for Bottas .
So , He wanted to know if it was alright or not , to have Max crowding him .

I guess being a "sensitive argument starter" isn't so bad , being that I'm in the camp with Kimi .


I would love it if Lewis asked the question and sorted this .
But , it's likely going to take an incident to get any sort of answer .

Kimi might done a really clumsy job of it a couple of races ago , but , essentially , he did what Lewis did at this past one at a little better angle .
Both ran straight into the path of the guy on the outside , with no chance of making it around at the speed at which they were going whilst taking a tighter line , thus leaving room .
Both slid into the space where there was already a car they knew was there .


A little wheel banging isn't a bad thing , but this intimidation game they're playing could get somebody hurt .

[henners88]

Then the stewards need to make it clear. Perhaps the severity of certain incidents determine the outcome of the action?

Hamilton's move on Rosberg was absolutely nothing like Kimis on Bottas in Sochi other than them being side by side at some point. Kimi crashed heavily into Bottas taking him out of the race, whereas the Mercedes drivers touched very lightly while trying to win the corner. Intimidation is part of racing and how drivers push their authority when trying to get past and win. Ask Schumacher, Alonso and even Kimi when they are in the alternative position.

[Bagwan]

Then the stewards need to make it clear. Perhaps the severity of certain incidents determine the outcome of the action?

Hamilton's move on Rosberg was absolutely nothing like Kimis on Bottas in Sochi other than them being side by side at some point. Kimi crashed heavily into Bottas taking him out of the race, whereas the Mercedes drivers touched very lightly while trying to win the corner. Intimidation is part of racing and how drivers push their authority when trying to get past and win. Ask Schumacher, Alonso and even Kimi when they are in the alternative position.

Hard to disagree with much of that , henners .
Although "side by side at some point" belittles a bit that Nico and Lewis touched wheels , which rather indicates they were right pretty much fully side by side for the event .

I think that issue that gets to me is that neither Lewis or Kimi , at the speed they were doing , could actually make the corner while leaving room for another car outside .
They both slid through , either because they misjudged the grip level inside , or that they never intended to leave room at all .

If it was grip , then it was a simple mistake if an offence at all , for Hamilton , at least .
I don't think anyone really believes it was a mistake from Lewis in that sense .

He said it was his corner because he was inside .


Intimidation has always and will always be a part of racing .


Squeezing a guy out of room when you know you aren't able to react to the possibility of him fighting back around the outside simply isn't fair .
That's what Nico is mad about .
It's the point he so clumsily tried to make in Spa last year .


It's a fight over space .
I believe that the driver should at least always be capable of leaving that space , as per the rules .
Sliding into someone is not on , as it means you have lost control , and caused a collision .

Remember , the guy outside is under control , and is right beside , with open track ahead of him if he can use his extra grip gleaned from the wider trajectory . It's his squeeze , taking the space he's allowed , to force the driver inside to slow , in order to get around the corner .
There's a risk , sure .
It's one that has drivers talking sometimes about trust , when they know they can go wheel to wheel , and sometimes go for that outside move .

I'm not saying Lewis is untrustworthy , but I am saying that not leaving room because he believes he owns the corner when he's inside is dangerous .
It's bumpercars if you know you can't make the corner .

[steveaki13]

Watch from 30 minutes on this video. The start of Imola 2004.

See Schumi & Montoya go at it into Tosa and then Montoya and Ralf along the straight.

Two examples of similar incidents. I know Montoya was furious after this.

Just as interesting things to compare. No contact but forcing others off track.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXSFAn_dL7I

[Tazio]

:stareup: One of my fav Shu moves, JPM punked! :eek:

[Nitrodaze]

I have been searching for footage from the camera on Hamilton's car to find out whether his actions at the first turn of Austin was intentional, the video clip on this article from Martin Brundle was the clearest l have found:-

http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/24096/10045219/martin-brundle-on-how-f1-and-lewis-hamilton-came-out-on-top-in-america

From the look of this, Hamilton did not shove Rosberg of the track on purpose, he simply did not have any grip at the apex of the corner. He turned the steering wheel but the car continued on a wider arch than he intended. This would explain why the stewards took no punitive action. It was simply a racing incident, nothing more.

[Bagwan]

I have been searching for footage from the camera on Hamilton's car to find out whether his actions at the first turn of Austin was intentional, the video clip on this article from Martin Brundle was the clearest l have found:-

http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/24096/10045219/martin-brundle-on-how-f1-and-lewis-hamilton-came-out-on-top-in-america

From the look of this, Hamilton did not shove Rosberg of the track on purpose, he simply did not have any grip at the apex of the corner. He turned the steering wheel but the car continued on a wider arch than he intended. This would explain why the stewards took no punitive action. It was simply a race incident, nothing more.

Lewis said it was his corner because he was inside , so , essentially , he was saying he had no intention of leaving room .
Perhaps the steering input was there because he didn't expect Nico to stick it around the outside , but Lewis sliding into him was based in his belief that he owned it already .

And , that isn't right , simply because Nico was able to put his car there .
That's why there's a rule that says you need to leave room .

Maybe it would be better worded as having the drivers be able to leave room , but not necessarily do it .
That way , if Lewis had , in fact , intimidated Nico enough to get him to back out , he could take the space , but if he's still there , he'd need to be able to leave room .

Kimi avoided a penalty today , with broken suspension , but I think we would have heard it again that he didn't leave Bottas any space .

[Mia 01]

That punk Bottas gave Kimi and Nico the answer yesterday, what a load of double standars among the stewards. I´m still furious!!!

[Nitrodaze]

Lewis said it was his corner because he was inside , so , essentially , he was saying he had no intention of leaving room .
Perhaps the steering input was there because he didn't expect Nico to stick it around the outside , but Lewis sliding into him was based in his belief that he owned it already .

And , that isn't right , simply because Nico was able to put his car there .
That's why there's a rule that says you need to leave room .

Maybe it would be better worded as having the drivers be able to leave room , but not necessarily do it .
That way , if Lewis had , in fact , intimidated Nico enough to get him to back out , he could take the space , but if he's still there , he'd need to be able to leave room .

Kimi avoided a penalty today , with broken suspension , but I think we would have heard it again that he didn't leave Bottas any space .

The facts are clear, but clearly you have a thing with Hamilton so you are not likely to accept the facts even as clear as they are. Try to get over it buddy. Mexico was great for Rosberg so you can take some comfort from that.

[The Black Knight]

Well, seems like Nico has landed back on his feet pretty nicely.

I tried searching for footage of Verstappen and Kimi but any footage I saw of the two in Austin doesn't have Max shoving Kimi out onto the kerbs so I can't add an opinion to what Kimi said.

As for Lewis, the first corners incident was racing and it's just being used by some people to bash a truly terrific racing driver. Moving on now... Brazil next!

[Bagwan]

The facts are clear, but clearly you have a thing with Hamilton so you are not likely to accept the facts even as clear as they are. Try to get over it buddy. Mexico was great for Rosberg so you can take some comfort from that.

How come you aren't accusing me of being hard on Kimi , too ?
He was an idiot for not leaving any room for a guy who had a wheel on his sidepod , and all and sundry seem to agree that because he knew he was there , he shouldn't have expected him to disappear .

The same idiot was penalized for not leaving any room a couple of races ago .


But when I question Lewis on the same count , with Nico being expected to disappear , I'm met not with debate , but rather with condescending remarks .
If I have a "thing" with Hamilton , then I think it fair to say that you do as well .

But your "thing" is different .

[Bagwan]

Well, seems like Nico has landed back on his feet pretty nicely.

I tried searching for footage of Verstappen and Kimi but any footage I saw of the two in Austin doesn't have Max shoving Kimi out onto the kerbs so I can't add an opinion to what Kimi said.

As for Lewis, the first corners incident was racing and it's just being used by some people to bash a truly terrific racing driver. Moving on now... Brazil next!

Kimi was asking if it's ok to push people up on the curbs if they are right beside you .

He was told that you need to leave space .
Whether Max did or didn't is almost irrelevant , really .

Is it ok or not ?

[Nitrodaze]

How come you aren't accusing me of being hard on Kimi , too ?
He was an idiot for not leaving any room for a guy who had a wheel on his sidepod , and all and sundry seem to agree that because he knew he was there , he shouldn't have expected him to disappear .

The same idiot was penalized for not leaving any room a couple of races ago .


But when I question Lewis on the same count , with Nico being expected to disappear , I'm met not with debate , but rather with condescending remarks .
If I have a "thing" with Hamilton , then I think it fair to say that you do as well .

But your "thing" is different .

Sorry buddy, no attempt on my side to be condescending to you. I like to go with facts. I would take issue with Hamilton if l thought for a second that he was wrong. As l would do with any driver on the F1 grid. I think you should try to support your arguments with some facts and l shall be the first to agree with you.

As far as the Kimi issue goes, there are two points to Kimi's question; one was to do with the maneuver that young Verstapenn pulled on Kimi that forced him off the track. Second, was his [Kimi's] maneuver on Bottas that took out of the race and a 3rd place podium position.

I have not seen the Verstapenn incident, hence l have not commented on it. I did see the Bottas incident and that was an over-ambitous move by Kimi. A rookie type move which he was duly penalized for.

Now there are two scenarios to being forced off track; the action was intentional or it was not intentional. Non-intentional counts for situations where the offending driver had little or no control on the situation that resulted in the other driver being forced off the track. The video evidence that l provided seem to show that Hamilton was making an effort to turn into the corner and as such leave some room.
The other scenario which is what the stewards are ruling against; is where the action is intentional. That's where the driver has full control of the direction of the car but can be seen to take visible action to push the other driver off the track. If the Verstapenn incident fall under this category, l would not know as l have not researched it. But Kimi's action at Mexico on Bottas fall under this category.

I hope this clears things up for you. And l don't have a thing for Hamilton. He is a brilliant racer and triple world champion, that is someone that one cannot help admiring.

[henners88]

Kimi got his answer yesterday and it all depends whether the driver you are pushing is willing to yield. Bottas could have driven off the circuit like Nico did but didn't and that is fine by me. Every incident is different too.

[The Black Knight]

Kimi was asking if it's ok to push people up on the curbs if they are right beside you .

He was told that you need to leave space .
Whether Max did or didn't is almost irrelevant , really .

Is it ok or not ?

I hear what you're saying Bagwan but every incident is different so one rule doesn't fit all, unfortunately.

In the case of Lewis and Nico, Nico could have just as easily backed off and kept second as easily as Lewis could have not given him room. Take Lewis at the start of the Mexico GP, he knew he couldn't get Rosberg around the outside so he didn't even attempt it even though they were alongside again. Rosberg could have done the smart thing Lewis did and backed out too in Austin.

As for Kimi, because very situation is different I can't say e.g. if I have momentum towards the outer-line and the other driver blindly and knowingly tries to go around me, why should I lift off? On the other hand, should I change my chosen entry line to intentionally push someone wide is different again, so we can't just apply one rule and say that it applies to every situation.

This is why I think that applying rules to overtaking maneuvers is so futile, much like track limit boundaries. All scenarios can never be fully encapsulated by a rule or set of rules because every incident is different.

[Bagwan]

Sorry buddy, no attempt on my side to be condescending to you. I like to go with facts. I would take issue with Hamilton if l thought for a second that he was wrong. As l would do with any driver on the F1 grid. I think you should try to support your arguments with some facts and l shall be the first to agree with you.

As far as the Kimi issue goes, there are two points to Kimi's question; one was to do with the maneuver that young Verstapenn pulled on Kimi that forced him off the track. Second, was his [Kimi's] maneuver on Bottas that took out of the race and a 3rd place podium position.

I have not seen the Verstapenn incident, hence l have not commented on it. I did see the Bottas incident and that was an over-ambitous move by Kimi. A rookie type move which he was duly penalized for.

Now there are two scenarios to being forced off track; the action was intentional or it was not intentional. Non-intentional counts for situations where the offending driver had little or no control on the situation that resulted in the other driver being forced off the track. The video evidence that l provided seem to show that Hamilton was making an effort to turn into the corner and as such leave some room.
The other scenario which is what the stewards are ruling against; is where the action is intentional. That's where the driver has full control of the direction of the car but can be seen to take visible action to push the other driver off the track. If the Verstapenn incident fall under this category, l would not know as l have not researched it. But Kimi's action at Mexico on Bottas fall under this category.

I hope this clears things up for you. And l don't have a thing for Hamilton. He is a brilliant racer and triple world champion, that is someone that one cannot help admiring.

Thanks for your controlled reply .
I was being a bit snotty there .

My point was that in this case , Lewis was on a trajectory that didn't allow for Nico possibly being there .
It is a fair point that he did turn the wheel to no avail , but his speed precluded the possibility of leaving space .
If one takes this evidence at face value , it was a simple mistake to slide wide into his team mate , pushing him wide over the curbs .

But , in defense of his actions , Lewis admits to believing it was his corner .
So , he drove through .

Both Lewis and Nico figured they had a right , and at some point there must be a rule that makes it ok to not give that space .

[Bagwan]

I hear what you're saying Bagwan but every incident is different so one rule doesn't fit all, unfortunately.

In the case of Lewis and Nico, Nico could have just as easily backed off and kept second as easily as Lewis could have not given him room. Take Lewis at the start of the Mexico GP, he knew he couldn't get Rosberg around the outside so he didn't even attempt it even though they were alongside again. Rosberg could have done the smart thing Lewis did and backed out too in Austin.

As for Kimi, because very situation is different I can't say e.g. if I have momentum towards the outer-line and the other driver blindly and knowingly tries to go around me, why should I lift off? On the other hand, should I change my chosen entry line to intentionally push someone wide is different again, so we can't just apply one rule and say that it applies to every situation.

This is why I think that applying rules to overtaking maneuvers is so futile, much like track limit boundaries. All scenarios can never be fully encapsulated by a rule or set of rules because every incident is different.

In the case of Lewis and Nico , Lewis was the one who slid , and could easily have lifted , to make the corner without losing grip .

I agree , though , that backing out and going inside might have worked better , given that he knows his team mate has a history of doing this .
But , to a degree , I think , Nico is still trying to fruitlessly make the same point he was trying to make back in Spa last year .

It is tough to come up with rules , but consistency in how existing ones are applied is almost more important , and more what we are talking about .

[The Black Knight]

In the case of Lewis and Nico , Lewis was the one who slid , and could easily have lifted , to make the corner without losing grip .

I agree , though , that backing out and going inside might have worked better , given that he knows his team mate has a history of doing this .
But , to a degree , I think , Nico is still trying to fruitlessly make the same point he was trying to make back in Spa last year .

It is tough to come up with rules , but consistency in how existing ones are applied is almost more important , and more what we are talking about .

Well Nico too has a history of doing these things, lets not forget Ricciardo in Hungary this year, same idea, similar situation and I think Ricciardo was wrong there because he should have lifted and backed off once the position was lost. Once on the outside your position is automatically compromised.

[N. Jones]

Where does Nico go? Why, no where of course! He makes his money right where he is.

[henners88]

Where does Nico go? Why, no where of course! He makes his money right where he is.

Exactly. Nico is in the best team in F1 with the best car and best chance of winning the WDC.

He just needs to beat Lewis over the course of a season and only he is in charge of that. Personally I don't think he can handle the pressure of a title fight as we've seen error strewn performances at times when he's needed to deliver. On his day he can beat lewis however. He needs to prove himself and he's only too aware of that.

This time next year he could be a 1x WDC or Hamilton could be smug with his fourth crown.

[henners88]

I also think Mercedes backed Rosberg in Mexico as he was in desperate need of a morale boost. He drove well and needed that win.

[Bagwan]

Well Nico too has a history of doing these things, lets not forget Ricciardo in Hungary this year, same idea, similar situation and I think Ricciardo was wrong there because he should have lifted and backed off once the position was lost. Once on the outside your position is automatically compromised.

I don't recall that one , but I'd love to see it to compare , if you can manage it .

I do see it as a bit of a gambit , going around the outside , and if we put the obligation on the shoulders of that driver to be at least fully even with the other driver inside , so that he is fully sighted by a guy looking into the corner , then we have solid criteria for going outside .
The inside driver needs only to leave room if he isn't passed on the way in . But , the most critical part of it would be that he always be able to do so .

[The Black Knight]

I don't recall that one , but I'd love to see it to compare , if you can manage it .

I do see it as a bit of a gambit , going around the outside , and if we put the obligation on the shoulders of that driver to be at least fully even with the other driver inside , so that he is fully sighted by a guy looking into the corner , then we have solid criteria for going outside .
The inside driver needs only to leave room if he isn't passed on the way in . But , the most critical part of it would be that he always be able to do so .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdTN1A0W7tM

Well, looking at it again it's not exactly the same, but it's after the move was over and Rosberg exited the corner, that's when Danny should have backed off as Rosberg had the inside line. The beginning of the incident is the same but on the exit of the corner, is about the point I'm making.

[Mia 01]

Lewis Words in this article is an indirect admittment that he played a Dirty move on Nico in the US GP. He know very well why the team have to give Nico one back, he made his one bed. Respect, ha ha ha, no ...... way.

http://planetf1.com/news/lewis-merc-were-extra-warm-to-rosberg/

[Big Ben]

I've read his comments too. He's a very graceful man. It's just so easy not to like him. He's basically bitching and moaning the team didn't favor him. Apparently the team having the same strategy for both drivers means the team is extra warm to Rosberg. What an a$$***

[jens]

I wanted to say one thing about this endless Turn 1 debate of Hamilton-Rosberg after some further reviewing and thinking.

I can understand, what happened in USA. The track was wet, and Lewis slid wide. However, I do not agree with what Hamilton did with Rosberg in Japan. He just deliberately pushed him off the track. I am surprised he didn't get a penalty.

[Nitrodaze]

I wanted to say one thing about this endless Turn 1 debate of Hamilton-Rosberg after some further reviewing and thinking.

I can understand, what happened in USA. The track was wet, and Lewis slid wide. However, I do not agree with what Hamilton did with Rosberg in Japan. He just deliberately pushed him off the track. I am surprised he didn't get a penalty.

This is just like the Hydra, as soon as we put one item to bed another pops up. Ok we get it, you guys don't like Hamilton. All champions get this type of criticism as their way to winning a championship is usually shaded with moments where they have to be aggressive to win. The route to success can be ugly at times, even when it is just the sort of racing that we want to see, some would find reason to criticize. I suppose some want a very sanitized race where there is no touching or hard racing that cause cars to go off the track. Just an orderly fast procession where everyone take their start positions and drive fast to the end of the race. Any attempt to change position would be frowned upon harshly.

You either want great racing or you don't.

[Big Ben]

What when his way even after winning the championship is shaded with moments where he has to bitch and moan for no good reason at all? He came into the sport with the attitude of a spoilt brat and many years later nothing has changed. McLaren went off in Hungary in his first season after a similar moment when he didn't follow the team strategy.

[The Black Knight]

I wanted to say one thing about this endless Turn 1 debate of Hamilton-Rosberg after some further reviewing and thinking.

I can understand, what happened in USA. The track was wet, and Lewis slid wide. However, I do not agree with what Hamilton did with Rosberg in Japan. He just deliberately pushed him off the track. I am surprised he didn't get a penalty.

Hamilton had the racing line in Japan. There was a opening, he went for it. In Japan, Nico could have also backed out of it and kept second opposed to allowing himself to be pushed out wide. A smarter driver would have realised he was always moving towards a closing gap and played the long game, keeping his position opposed to playing the immediate one.

[The Black Knight]

Lewis Words in this article is an indirect admittment that he played a Dirty move on Nico in the US GP. He know very well why the team have to give Nico one back, he made his one bed. Respect, ha ha ha, no ...... way.

http://planetf1.com/news/lewis-merc-were-extra-warm-to-rosberg/

He's probably right though. We all know that Rosberg is a cheat and sore loser so, considering the magnitude of Rosberg's fuck up in Austin, Mercedes probably wanted to give him some extra love.

[Bagwan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdTN1A0W7tM

Well, looking at it again it's not exactly the same, but it's after the move was over and Rosberg exited the corner, that's when Danny should have backed off as Rosberg had the inside line. The beginning of the incident is the same but on the exit of the corner, is about the point I'm making.

A good vid to illustrate the point , I must say .
Thanks for posting that .

The pass attempt into the corner was a dive , to be sure , but Nico , better sighted on the exit , being on the inside , should have seen him coming .
Had he left that little bit more space , he already had the overspeed to keep the position , but he attempted to close the door too early .

He didn't slide into the spot .


Now , from the other side , yes Dan hit his rear tire , showing Nico to be ahead , but that was because of the difference in speed between them because he had locked and gone straight in the corner .
When Nico ran into his path , he was going straight , accelerating to get out first .
And , technically , he was ahead , only moments before .


So , for me , the verdict is that Rosberg deserved a penalty there , and perhaps avoided it with a flat .

[henners88]

I've read his comments too. He's a very graceful man. It's just so easy not to like him. He's basically bitching and moaning the team didn't favor him. Apparently the team having the same strategy for both drivers means the team is extra warm to Rosberg. What an a$$***
The BBC article seems to be where planet f1 have quoted it from and they appear to have lifted pieces out of it for sensation and removed context. Read the full article is my advice.

I don't think Lewis is miffed because the team didn't favour him. I think he was miffed because he was being asked to pit earlier than needed in order for Nico to maintain the lead. Had Lewis completed another 3 laps it is likely he would have jumped Nico. As a driver I can see his frustration, but the team needed to boost Nico's morale so I can see why they did it.

[henners88]

What when his way even after winning the championship is shaded with moments where he has to bitch and moan for no good reason at all? He came into the sport with the attitude of a spoilt brat and many years later nothing has changed. McLaren went off in Hungary in his first season after a similar moment when he didn't follow the team strategy.

I think it shows despite winning the championship he still has the thirst to continue winning. He could sit back and let his team mate pick up a few wins but he's competitive like many of the legends of the sport.

He had reason to question the call and I think it's refreshing to see a driver who is switched on to what is going on. He did follow the order one lap later.

[Bagwan]

He told his team he didn't trust them .

And then , afterwards , told them he believed they had lied to him about the safety of his tires .

He , very publicly , questioned his team .
It's not a way to build trust .

[Big Ben]

I think it shows despite winning the championship he still has the thirst to continue winning. He could sit back and let his team mate pick up a few wins but he's competitive like many of the legends of the sport.

He had reason to question the call and I think it's refreshing to see a driver who is switched on to what is going on. He did follow the order one lap later.

You see thirst of winning, I see a spiteful person

[Big Ben]

The BBC article seems to be where planet f1 have quoted it from and they appear to have lifted pieces out of it for sensation and removed context. Read the full article is my advice.

I don't think Lewis is miffed because the team didn't favour him. I think he was miffed because he was being asked to pit earlier than needed in order for Nico to maintain the lead. Had Lewis completed another 3 laps it is likely he would have jumped Nico. As a driver I can see his frustration, but the team needed to boost Nico's morale so I can see why they did it.

I've actually read the BBC article first and didn't even read thie whole article on planet f1.

[rjbetty]

He told his team he didn't trust them .

And then , afterwards , told them he believed they had lied to him about the safety of his tires .

He , very publicly , questioned his team .
It's not a way to build trust .

Here's a spoon bags, might help with scraping that barrel out... :rolleyes:



As for Nico R, here's a quick summary as I see it (off the top of my head)

2013
Much closer than most anticipated including me probably. I always rated Rosberg and knew he could be very quick but he had just come off a 2012 where Schumacher showed him up quite a bit, so I didn't know which Rosberg we were going to get for 2013. As it turned out, Hamilton and Nico were too close for comfort though Hamilton definitely ahead in both qualifying and points (regardless of reliability etc). I always just put this down to it being Hamilton's first year in the team and expected him to pull out a gap from 2014...

2014
...Except I was one who doubted Hamilton's focus and bought into the whole Nico "cerebral" thing, so I was convinced he would take the title, so much so I actually put a bet on it - over £200! - something I have never done or plan to do again. Anyway, that preconception, just like my dosh, went down the pan since Hamilton was almost always quicker in the race, and despite the stats I think he had a tiny edge overall in qualifying pace, but didn't manage to convert his pace into actual Saturday results well. Quite a lot of that was on him though.

2015
I actually think Rosberg may have done a better job this year than last year, if only marginally. It's just that reliability and stuff haven't distorted the picture so much. There were a few tactics early on, like deliberately blocking Hamilton's qualifying lap in Malaysia - easy to see, though not to prove. I don't recall Bagwan starting a thread about that by the way. Rosberg has also gone for a more race-oriented approach it seems, which also explains the qualifying this year, as well as Hamilton stepping up his own game.

I have long believed and still believe Nico is one of the top drivers in F1 and one of the very best over one lap, probably since about 2010. I thought he was probably better in qualifying than someone like Button back then, and Niki Lauda, Schumacher and Brawn all seemed to agree his qualifying is top notch.

Prospects for 2016
Can't see how he can really beat Hamilton over a season if it's already 3-0 unless something unusual happens like Hamilton breaking his arm, which Sebastien Loeb can tell you is quite possible. Expect more top drawer driving but again just a little short of crème-de-la-crème I guess.

[Bagwan]

Thanks , Mr. Betty .

Did I boil it down a little too far for you ?

I read an interesting comment on JA's site , where the poster remembered Lewis saying that , in a past race , Nico should make the pass on his own if he thought he was faster , relating it to this race where Lewis remarked that he couldn't get close at all in the dirty air .

In both cases , Lewis was ahead , and questioning the team because he thought he knew better .

It caused a lot of friction both times , but I guess it won him championships both years .

What more can you ask for ?

[truefan72]

I've read his comments too. He's a very graceful man. It's just so easy not to like him. He's basically bitching and moaning the team didn't favor him. Apparently the team having the same strategy for both drivers means the team is extra warm to Rosberg. What an a$$***

why should the team have the same strategy for both drivers?
If one guy can make it to the end with his tires and the other can't, why should the better driver have to come in to pit as well?
SMH

And you have it twisted, he is not complaining about the team not favoring him, he is complaining about the team[i]favoring Rosberg[i]!
and the fact he wasn't allowed to run his race. If you are going to slate him, at least get the facts right

[truefan72]

You see thirst of winning, I see a spiteful person

do you even know what the word spiteful means?
lol

[AndyL]

why should the team have the same strategy for both drivers?
If one guy can make it to the end with his tires and the other can't, why should the better driver have to come in to pit as well?
SMH

And you have it twisted, he is not complaining about the team not favoring him, he is complaining about the team[i]favoring Rosberg[i]!
and the fact he wasn't allowed to run his race. If you are going to slate him, at least get the facts right

Rosberg wasn't allowed to "run his race" either. They both got the same instruction.

[truefan72]

Thanks , Mr. Betty .

Did I boil it down a little too far for you ?

I read an interesting comment on JA's site , where the poster remembered Lewis saying that , in a past race , Nico should make the pass on his own if he thought he was faster , relating it to this race where Lewis remarked that he couldn't get close at all in the dirty air .

In both cases , Lewis was ahead , and questioning the team because he thought he knew better .

It caused a lot of friction both times , but I guess it won him championships both years .

What more can you ask for ?

...and that was China 2015 not Malaysia, and Nico was complaining that Hamilton, who mind you, was in the lead was not going fast enough and vettel was catching him up from behind, which was of course just a bunch of lunacy. That topic was much discussed at the time. How you have somehow managed to relate that ridiculous situation with Hamilton complaining about dirty air in mexico is just an astonishing thing to watch. I've heard about grasping at straws but this is on a whole other level. lol

[truefan72]

Rosberg wasn't allowed to "run his race" either. They both got the same instruction.

Wrong, Rosberg was in the lead and the decision was made, presumably by his side of the garage, or even worse paddy lowe. It was his prerogative to do what he wanted/needed to do. He could have told them his tires were ok or accepted coming in. Because they did that with his car, doesn't mean they have to do it for hamilton's car.
I simply don't understand how some folks don't get this. I see absolutely no reason for them to have made that call other than to hand Rosberg a pity win.

I don't recall Mercedes asking Rosberg to come into the pits in Monaco, despite a monumental 32 second gap from Hamilton prior to the SC
Where were all you guys there talking about fairness, or complaining that Hamilton wasn't "allowed to run his race" then.
oh well

And TBH i bet you most of you would be applauding a "tactical Masterstroke" by Rosberg if the roles were reversed and he decided to stay out. then have a go at hamilton for throwing away his race and saying things like "ultimately he is the driver in his car..."
oh wait...yeah, you guys did say that for monaco 2015
lol

[N. Jones]

I think that if Rosberg wants to stop Hamilton from pushing him wide he should not move. Let the crash, then Lewis will stop.

[AndyL]

Wrong, Rosberg was in the lead and the decision was made, presumably by his side of the garage, or even worse paddy lowe. It was his prerogative to do what he wanted/needed to do. He could have told them his tires were ok or accepted coming in. Because they did that with his car, doesn't mean they have to do it for hamilton's car.

Do you have any basis for the presumption I highlighted other than your own bias? Rosberg did not need to pit for tyres any more than Hamilton did. They were doing the same lap times.


I simply don't understand how some folks don't get this. I see absolutely no reason for them to have made that call other than to hand Rosberg a pity win.

I'm sure some folks are having as much trouble understanding how you don't get it. How is calling in both drivers handing Rosberg a pity win? It made no change to the positions in the race, which Rosberg was already winning.

The call was not "Oh Nico needs to pit, we'd better pull Lewis in as well so Nico can still win." The call was "both cars might get in to tyre trouble before the end of the race, and we have a pit stop in hand, so we'll call them both in for a precautionary stop."

[henners88]

I've actually read the BBC article first and didn't even read thie whole article on planet f1.
Then I don't understand the basis of your criticism in that case.

[henners88]

I think Mercedes realise they made the wrong call in hindsight with Lewis. A few articles have popped up today and Coulthard has even called it a mistake. They should have listened to Hamilton's feedback when he said the tyres felt fine. However I still think it was tactical to enable the frustrated number 2 pick up his game. I do agree with it to be honest. There is no point having an underperforming and struggling Nico and now the championship is over I think they wanted him to receive a boost. I think it's worked and hopefully this will be explained to Hamilton.

We all know Lewis can be a bit of a knob, but he's a highly competitive triple world champion. He was right in questioning the team for his own gains IMO. I think with both championships see up its now time to play the team game.

People need to put away their bias and judge on the facts. :)

[jens]

Hamilton may have felt the tyres were fine with about 20 laps to go. But what would have happened if it was just 5 laps, or 2? Remember, what happened in Canada 2012. Alonso looked fine most of the race, but was lapping 4-5 secs off the pace in the final laps and dropped from 2nd to 5th in no time. Also remember, what happened to Vettel in Belgium, when the risk was taken and he suffered a puncture.

I don't know, what were Mercedes' calculation. Probably they feared a complete drop-off near the end of the race. Because they were running comfortable 1st and 2nd, and had no reason to fear competition from behind.

Tyres feeling "fine" with 20 laps to go means nothing. Probably Merc feared a complete drop off or a puncture in the last couple of laps, which could deny them the comfortable 1-2. If this fear was justified, I don't know. We don't have proof, just guessing.

[The Black Knight]

Do you have any basis for the presumption I highlighted other than your own bias? Rosberg did not need to pit for tyres any more than Hamilton did. They were doing the same lap times.



I'm sure some folks are having as much trouble understanding how you don't get it. How is calling in both drivers handing Rosberg a pity win? It made no change to the positions in the race, which Rosberg was already winning.

The call was not "Oh Nico needs to pit, we'd better pull Lewis in as well so Nico can still win." The call was "both cars might get in to tyre trouble before the end of the race, and we have a pit stop in hand, so we'll call them both in for a precautionary stop."

Nico could have just as easily questioned the team orders and said he wanted to stay out. He didn't and chose to come in. Lewis did question it and if he won because of it, it would have been deserving because that is part of racing.

I remember Button refusing a McLaren order to come into the pits in China 2010. People called it a master stroke by Button because it won him the race. I wonder how many of those people are here criticising Hamilton for not refusing but simply questioning orders he was given.

What a spiteful soul Jenson is then :laugh:

[henners88]

Hamilton may have felt the tyres were fine with about 20 laps to go. But what would have happened if it was just 5 laps, or 2? Remember, what happened in Canada 2012. Alonso looked fine most of the race, but was lapping 4-5 secs off the pace in the final laps and dropped from 2nd to 5th in no time. Also remember, what happened to Vettel in Belgium, when the risk was taken and he suffered a puncture.

I don't know, what were Mercedes' calculation. Probably they feared a complete drop-off near the end of the race. Because they were running comfortable 1st and 2nd, and had no reason to fear competition from behind.

Tyres feeling "fine" with 20 laps to go means nothing. Probably Merc feared a complete drop off or a puncture in the last couple of laps, which could deny them the comfortable 1-2. If this fear was justified, I don't know. We don't have proof, just guessing.

I suppose Hamilton would argue that considering he has nothing to loose it was worth the risk. The constructors championship is won and a 1-2 is not necessarily important. I think Nico needed the win more than Hamilton and Mercedes supported that.

[Bagwan]

Tire report said the first skins were down to 10% on Nico's car .

It's not unreasonable to estimate that Lewis's tires would be under more strain , given he was in Nico's wake for most of the race .

So , if it was marginal at all , and they had the time , then it is reasonable to pit both .

If Lewis was able to stay close on times to Nico , then it could have been reasonable for him to wait a few , and then pit , so his tires would be more significantly fresher for the last few laps .
But , his idea was to go to the end .

That was another 20 laps .

[Mia 01]

Is there no tweets from Hamilton this time where he explains that he was faster, better on tire management and in his fully right to win as Always. But, sorry, there is sorts of, in the article he blames the team.

He never dissapoints me, for sure.

[Big Ben]

do you even know what the word spiteful means?
lol

yes. do people still say lol?

[henners88]

I didn't mean to 'like' post no 101. I quoted it not agreed with it.

[Big Ben]

why should the team have the same strategy for both drivers?
If one guy can make it to the end with his tires and the other can't, why should the better driver have to come in to pit as well?
SMH

And you have it twisted, he is not complaining about the team not favoring him, he is complaining about the team[i]favoring Rosberg[i]!
and the fact he wasn't allowed to run his race. If you are going to slate him, at least get the facts right

You have your idol implying the team favored the other driver having them both on the same strategy. Who could take the bitching if Rosberg won on a different strategy?

And yeah, I know what Hamilton said. It's just that what he said is stupid.

[Big Ben]

I didn't mean to 'like' post no 101. I quoted it not agreed with it.

yes you did... deep deep down you know you did

[Big Ben]

Then I don't understand the basis of your criticism in that case.

Asked if the team had orchestrated the result, Hamilton said: "I never think those kind of things."

He added: "But I know the team has felt the need to be extra warm [to Rosberg]."

Pushed to elaborate, the 30-year-old said: "I do know what I mean but I'm not going to say what I mean. You should ask Toto Wolff [Mercedes team boss] and Niki Lauda [Mercedes non-executive chairman].

"You should put those questions to them about how they feel about it, and what they have to do behind the scenes to keep him happy."

this is from the bbc article. should I comment on this? are you denying is implying that the team favored Rosberg?

"Nico drove well. No mistakes. No gust of wind."

they included the mocking too.

[Big Ben]

Nico could have just as easily questioned the team orders and said he wanted to stay out. He didn't and chose to come in. Lewis did question it and if he won because of it, it would have been deserving because that is part of racing.

I remember Button refusing a McLaren order to come into the pits in China 2010. People called it a master stroke by Button because it won him the race. I wonder how many of those people are here criticising Hamilton for not refusing but simply questioning orders he was given.

What a spiteful soul Jenson is then :laugh:

You could also mention China 2007 as a statement of Hamilton's tire expertise

[henners88]

Asked if the team had orchestrated the result, Hamilton said: "I never think those kind of things."

He added: "But I know the team has felt the need to be extra warm [to Rosberg]."

Pushed to elaborate, the 30-year-old said: "I do know what I mean but I'm not going to say what I mean. You should ask Toto Wolff [Mercedes team boss] and Niki Lauda [Mercedes non-executive chairman].

"You should put those questions to them about how they feel about it, and what they have to do behind the scenes to keep him happy."

this is from the bbc article. should I comment on this? are you denying is implying that the team favored Rosberg?

"Nico drove well. No mistakes. No gust of wind."

they included the mocking too.
I wasn't denying Hamilton was implying the team favoured Rosberg. I think Mercedes favoured Rosberg but have no issue with it. He needed the win more than lewis and hopefully it'll give him the confidence back to become the challenge he once was. F1 is dull even with my preferred driver winning,I am happy to admit that.

My dispute was the way you are demonising a drivers comments simply because you don't like him. It's total bollocks.

[henners88]

You could also mention China 2007 as a statement of Hamilton's tire expertise
What exactly would that tell us about Hamilton's tyre expertise? Hopefully I am not alone in being intrigued by an answer.

[Zico]

This is just like the Hydra, as soon as we put one item to bed another pops up. Ok we get it, you guys don't like Hamilton. All champions get this type of criticism as their way to winning a championship is usually shaded with moments where they have to be aggressive to win. The route to success can be ugly at times, even when it is just the sort of racing that we want to see, some would find reason to criticize. I suppose some want a very sanitized race where there is no touching or hard racing that cause cars to go off the track. Just an orderly fast procession where everyone take their start positions and drive fast to the end of the race. Any attempt to change position would be frowned upon harshly.

You either want great racing or you don't.

I cant believe you just said that, Jens is actually one of the least biased posters in this forum and Imo just tells it how he sees it objectively. I was less generous of Lewis's Austin dive and felt that he could still have given Nico the room and changed his line after the initial understeer moment, Brundle also clearly felt the same btw.

Hamilton is obviously a fantastic driver at the top of his game, very exciting, great to watch and I like his aggressive style but he is not perfect and cant always be faultless. He has the focus of the world on him at the sharp end of the grid, its inevitable that flashpoints and incidents will happen. questions will be asked and opinions will be given.

Like any other driver on the grid I'll praise him when he does well and criticize him when I feel he deserves it but its nothing personal to Lewis or any of his fans.

[Bagwan]

I can tell you one thing I really like about Hamilton right now .

He's really livened this place up .

And , it's great to see nobody getting too upset about any of it .

[rjbetty]

EDIT: Oh man I shouldn't really post under the influence of a bit of alcohol on me night off. Just scrap this.

Don't worry, other posters, I don't hate you. Peace and goodnight

[Rollo]

yes. do people still say lol?

https://translate.google.com.au/#cy/en/lol

Lol in Welsh... nonsense!

[Nitrodaze]

I cant believe you just said that, Jens is actually one of the least biased posters in this forum and Imo just tells it how he sees it objectively. I was less generous of Lewis's Austin dive and felt that he could still have given Nico the room and changed his line after the initial understeer moment, Brundle also clearly felt the same btw.

Hamilton is obviously a fantastic driver at the top of his game, very exciting, great to watch and I like his aggressive style but he is not perfect and cant always be faultless. He has the focus of the world on him at the sharp end of the grid, its inevitable that flashpoints and incidents will happen. questions will be asked and opinions will be given.

Like any other driver on the grid I'll praise him when he does well and criticize him when I feel he deserves it but its nothing personal to Lewis or any of his fans.

Buddy try to follow the thread properly. You would find that video evidence has been presented previously that showed that Hamilton did not intentionally push Rosberg off the track at Austin. This was thoroughly investigated by the Sky F1 crew.
Hence, the reason he was not punished by the stewards. I think we can move on from this issue.

[Big Ben]

My dispute was the way you are demonising a drivers comments simply because you don't like him. It's total bollocks.

Whatever :rolleyes: You put such a spin on things I don't see the point of continuing arguing with you.

[Nitrodaze]

What a lively tread this is. Peace and love people. :heart:

[henners88]

Whatever :rolleyes: You put such a spin on things I don't see the point of continuing arguing with you.
All the best.

[AndyL]

Nico could have just as easily questioned the team orders and said he wanted to stay out. He didn't and chose to come in. Lewis did question it and if he won because of it, it would have been deserving because that is part of racing.

I remember Button refusing a McLaren order to come into the pits in China 2010. People called it a master stroke by Button because it won him the race. I wonder how many of those people are here criticising Hamilton for not refusing but simply questioning orders he was given.

What a spiteful soul Jenson is then :laugh:

Certainly either driver could have ignored the instructions, and no doubt the debate about that would have been even more heated :) But that's quite different to saying the instructions themselves were biased or an attempt to change the race result.

I think it's just as well that both drivers did obey the orders. If either had refused, it would have left the Mercedes team in a difficult position. At the very least it would prevent them ever making such a precautionary stop again, with both drivers assuming the other would disobey the instructions.

[The Black Knight]

Certainly either driver could have ignored the instructions, and no doubt the debate about that would have been even more heated :) But that's quite different to saying the instructions themselves were biased or an attempt to change the race result.

I think it's just as well that both drivers did obey the orders. If either had refused, it would have left the Mercedes team in a difficult position. At the very least it would prevent them ever making such a precautionary stop again, with both drivers assuming the other would disobey the instructions.

Well, there is two sides of the coin here. The first is now that the championship is over, why not allow them race? Mercedes should, I think, certainly allow them do this for Brazil and Abu Dhabi. They have nothing to lose by doing this and then come March next year they can once again go back to the previous scenario they had.

On the other hand, from a team perspective this is the way they wanted to play it. I see where both Hamilton and Mercedes are coming from and I can also see how from Hamilton's perspective it can be seen as a move by the team to keep Rosberg happy.

What should have happened before Mexico is the team should have sat down with both drivers and said the shackles are off now so go race guys. If you want to do a different strategy for the next 3 races to each other than feel free to do this and we'll back you as long as it doesn't compromise the best team result. Make it clear that this freedom only lasts until the end of season as well. However, since they didn't do this, had Hamilton not pitted Nico would have been quite rightly mighty pissed off. Maybe they'll do it for Brazil and AD :) In the end, it's a whole load of noise over nothing as Hamilton did actually pit.

The point I'm making in my above post is that there have been many examples of drivers ignoring team orders where they weren't criticized but rather commended but when Hamilton so much as questions a team order he's spiteful. I'm glad to see him doing this however, as it was one area of his game he really needed to lift.

[The Black Knight]

A good vid to illustrate the point , I must say .
Thanks for posting that .

The pass attempt into the corner was a dive , to be sure , but Nico , better sighted on the exit , being on the inside , should have seen him coming .
Had he left that little bit more space , he already had the overspeed to keep the position , but he attempted to close the door too early .

He didn't slide into the spot .


Now , from the other side , yes Dan hit his rear tire , showing Nico to be ahead , but that was because of the difference in speed between them because he had locked and gone straight in the corner .
When Nico ran into his path , he was going straight , accelerating to get out first .
And , technically , he was ahead , only moments before .


So , for me , the verdict is that Rosberg deserved a penalty there , and perhaps avoided it with a flat .

Well, once Nico was ahead of Dan, Dan should have realized the move was over and he couldn't win this one. Going flat out and driving into your opponent is the wrong thing to do. Between the point where Nico got ahead and Dan hit him, there was only one person that could have prevented that accident from happening and that was Danny. That's why I believe it is his fault, he could have momentarily lifted to avoid the contact.

[Bagwan]

Well, once Nico was ahead of Dan, Dan should have realized the move was over and he couldn't win this one. Going flat out and driving into your opponent is the wrong thing to do. Between the point where Nico got ahead and Dan hit him, there was only one person that could have prevented that accident from happening and that was Danny. That's why I believe it is his fault, he could have momentarily lifted to avoid the contact.

It was a split second adjustment that Nico might have made , that wouldn't have put him into that lane until just a moment later , and all would have been fine , because he had the overspeed .
It looked to me that it was what Dan expected by that point , and , I guess it could be described as a few inches of mistake , to not lift .
But , he was on the edge of the track , travelling straight , and both could see each other clearly .

Nico took his lane before he was past , and thus , had not left enough space .
He only got it a few inches wrong , but sometimes that's all it takes .

[The Black Knight]

It was a split second adjustment that Nico might have made , that wouldn't have put him into that lane until just a moment later , and all would have been fine , because he had the overspeed .
It looked to me that it was what Dan expected by that point , and , I guess it could be described as a few inches of mistake , to not lift .
But , he was on the edge of the track , travelling straight , and both could see each other clearly .

Nico took his lane before he was past , and thus , had not left enough space .
He only got it a few inches wrong , but sometimes that's all it takes .

Well this is the great thing about F1 having differing opinions but to me, Nico had legitimately retaken the position at that point. He was clearly ahead and Dan should have backed off to avoid contact.

It's probably something we're not going to agree on but there have been many examples of similar moves like what Nico did in the past which haven't ended up like this. This one shouldn't have either and it was a bit of a brain fart by Danny.

[Bagwan]

Well this is the great thing about F1 having differing opinions but to me, Nico had legitimately retaken the position at that point. He was clearly ahead and Dan should have backed off to avoid contact.

It's probably something we're not going to agree on but there have been many examples of similar moves like what Nico did in the past which haven't ended up like this. This one shouldn't have either and it was a bit of a brain fart by Danny.

I guess it's why stewarding decisions can be so difficult .
There are always two sides .

Again , it was a great vid to illustrate that , to be sure .
I can certainly see your point .


It's close ones like that which may help us be able to get to the bottom of this .
It comes down to that space thing again .

If you're really there first , then you should be able to take it , but if you know that there's car car in close proximity you should leave yourself enough grip to at least be able to give the other guy room if he gets there with you .
If you slide through on the attempt , like Dan did at first , when he was fully inside , then it's fair game .

But , on the exit , it was Nico who misjudged how close Dan was , and moved into his path too early .

It's that space thing . You need to leave enough . It's what they told Kimi .


Sorry for arguing the point again .
We need not agree .

[driveace]

And if the Pit crew had a problem changing the tyres on Rosbergs car and been 12 seconds and not 2.8 or so Lewis would still have won pit stop or not.Not long ago Mercedes pitted Lewis when he was supposed to have time for an unplanned pit stop.Hamilton pits,and Rosberg passes,Hamilton says to the team I have just lost the race havnt I .They had to admit their mistake lost him the race

[Nitrodaze]

And if the Pit crew had a problem changing the tyres on Rosbergs car and been 12 seconds and not 2.8 or so Lewis would still have won pit stop or not.Not long ago Mercedes pitted Lewis when he was supposed to have time for an unplanned pit stop.Hamilton pits,and Rosberg passes,Hamilton says to the team I have just lost the race havnt I .They had to admit their mistake lost him the race

Just a point to notice, for Hamilton's stop, his new tyres were out of the heating covers for 2 laps as they discussed if he should come in for tyres. When did come in for the pit stop, the tyres had got quite cold to cost him a further net 2 seconds lose of time to Rosberg. His 2.5 sec gap before the pitstop became over 4 seconds.
Hence, so can see why the pitstop was a bother for Hamilton.

[The Black Knight]

I guess it's why stewarding decisions can be so difficult .
There are always two sides .

Again , it was a great vid to illustrate that , to be sure .
I can certainly see your point .


It's close ones like that which may help us be able to get to the bottom of this .
It comes down to that space thing again .

If you're really there first , then you should be able to take it , but if you know that there's car car in close proximity you should leave yourself enough grip to at least be able to give the other guy room if he gets there with you .
If you slide through on the attempt , like Dan did at first , when he was fully inside , then it's fair game .

But , on the exit , it was Nico who misjudged how close Dan was , and moved into his path too early .

It's that space thing . You need to leave enough . It's what they told Kimi .


Sorry for arguing the point again .
We need not agree .

No need to apologise, all good. I guess it comes down to this point, is a driver entitled in a situation like that to cut across another driver? To me, I think yes they should be able to as they should be entitled to do anything which should not end up in contact to defend their position. In this case, I feel Rosberg had the racing line, he took it and at the time he took it, there was really no way he could have known it would end up in contact. Danny was coming from off the racing line onto it. In that situation, where the driver has the racing line, if an incident occurs, I think fault should like with the driver coming back onto the racing line. I can see your viewpoint however, and it's really a matter of what stance you take. Maybe both are valid points and, if that's the case, it's just a racing incident.

[Big Ben]

The racing line is the track :rolleyes:

[Nitrodaze]

The racing line is the track :rolleyes:

mmmm, the racing line is the optimum path on the track that gives the fastest lap time. It may be partly off the track limits.

[Bagwan]

No need to apologise, all good. I guess it comes down to this point, is a driver entitled in a situation like that to cut across another driver? To me, I think yes they should be able to as they should be entitled to do anything which should not end up in contact to defend their position. In this case, I feel Rosberg had the racing line, he took it and at the time he took it, there was really no way he could have known it would end up in contact. Danny was coming from off the racing line onto it. In that situation, where the driver has the racing line, if an incident occurs, I think fault should like with the driver coming back onto the racing line. I can see your viewpoint however, and it's really a matter of what stance you take. Maybe both are valid points and, if that's the case, it's just a racing incident.

Both points are valid , but there needs to be a definitive rule that covers even ones as close as this .

And , I believe there already is .
If you look at the Kimi/Valterri cases , all and sundry called kimi an idiot(except Mia , of course) , and that was because he knew he was there and that Bottas was on the curbing already , unable to give more room .

I don't think I ever read any comments that criticized Bottas for not lifting to avoid either contact , and the second contact had Kimi climbing over his front wheel , so it shows that Kimi was ahead .

So , given that the first one had Kimi chastised for not giving space , and the second one didn't have Bottas penalized , it gives us two consistent rulings which both seem to say you need to leave space .

In neither incident was Bottas expected to lift , though , and it might have saved him a collision both times .
Same logic should apply to your example , I think .

[Nitrodaze]

I don't think I ever read any comments that criticized Bottas for not lifting to avoid either contact , and the second contact had Kimi climbing over his front wheel , so it shows that Kimi was ahead .

Bottas and Kimi were side by side going into the corner, slowing at the apex is more dangerous because whoever is behind would not be expecting Bottas to slow down drastically. They would be expecting both cars to continue though the corner side by side. Kimi could see Bottas was right there next to him, hence trying to move into the racing line; which is occupied by Bottas who was on the inside at the apex, was going to cause a collision. Ferrari would not be very happy with Kimi for the unneccessary DNF, especially since Vettel also crashed out.

I like Kimi but l have to say this was his fault and needs no investigation or clarification.

[jens]

I suppose Hamilton would argue that considering he has nothing to loose it was worth the risk. The constructors championship is won and a 1-2 is not necessarily important. I think Nico needed the win more than Hamilton and Mercedes supported that.

Okay, I see what you mean. However, the point I want to make. Even if teams totally dominate F1 seasons and have long ago secured championships, they prefer to maximize race results till the very end. Ferrari kept securing 1-2s till the end of 2002, likewise Red Bull in 2013. Teams, even if everything is "done", do not want bad PR and do not want to look unprofessional. Yeah, they could have told drivers "do what you want, titles are safe, let's have some fun". But they don't.

Hamilton may have had nothing to lose, but Mercedes felt they didn't want to look unprofessional by barely getting through the last few laps of the race.

[jens]

EDIT: Oh man I shouldn't really post under the influence of a bit of alcohol on me night off. Just scrap this.

Don't worry, other posters, I don't hate you. Peace and goodnight

I don't know, what did you write. But I am sure there have been worse things on the forums! Anyway, all is forgiven! :D

[Nitrodaze]

Hamilton may have had nothing to lose, but Mercedes felt they didn't want to look unprofessional by barely getting through the last few laps of the race.

Come on buddy, Is Bottas finishing in 3rd place with a very worn tyre unprofessional? Or Perez finishing 8th with a one stop strategy unprofessional? It has nothing to do with it. But l agree with you that a 1st and 2nd place in the driver's championship would make the season complete for Mercedes. And l agree completely that this is the right way to finish the season.

I just wonder if they [Merc] thought that talking to Hamilton about the game plan would not go down well with the World champion. Or they felt it would not be good for Rosberg's esteem to be seen to win a prearranged race. When you look at it from these two perspectives, then you begin to see how hard it is to manage a team with two great drivers.

[jens]

I don't think it was a pre-arranged race. We were on a new circuit for teams and tyre durability was unknown - even during the race teams were unsure which strategy to opt for. I think Mercedes initially hoped to make a 1-stopper, but during the race data showed that it might have been too optimistic. And of course, if the team took the decision during the raec to alter the strategy (due to new data/information, which had emerged) they wanted to treat both drivers equally and bring them in.

[Firstgear]

Hamilton may have had nothing to lose, but Mercedes felt they didn't want to look unprofessional by barely getting through the last few laps of the race.
It's more that just looking unprofessional. Mercedes need to protect their assets (car & driver). If they felt the tyres wouldn't last another 20 laps, then leaving him out there to fight (even if Lewis wants to) is irresponsible, dangerous and risking the health of the world champion.

[Nitrodaze]

It's more that just looking unprofessional. Mercedes need to protect their assets (car & driver). If they felt the tyres wouldn't last another 20 laps, then leaving him out there to fight (even if Lewis wants to) is irresponsible, dangerous and risking the health of the world champion.

The world champion is not a robot, he has intelligence to know when he needs tyres. If the team had not forceably pressed him to pit, he would driven the car until he needed a change of tyres. Nannying the driver was what Whitmarsh did that drove Hamilton from Mclaren to Mercedes, he does not need that.

For those still going on about the first corner at Austin, see what a real racer thinks about it http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/34703811

[Bagwan]

Lewis trying to take advantage of Nico isn't as much of an issue for me as his second guessing his strategists once they had told him it was the safe thing to do .
He told them he didn't think it was the right move , but that he'd do it anyway .

And , then he further pushed it afterwards , saying that all it was , was a warm gesture from the team towards Nico .

But , then , do you think that Nico would have considered the stop if he had any inkling that Hamilton might not ?
I don't think so .
No , Nico would have been told that the team were going to bring them both in so to be safe until the end .

And , as such , would have had pretty fair reason for complaint , had Hamilton been allowed to continue without , especially if he had made it to the end in first place .
No similar choice was on offer to Nico .
He was not told to baby his tires to last 20 more laps . He was told to pit because the first ones were down to 10% .

[steveaki13]

Okay, I see what you mean. However, the point I want to make. Even if teams totally dominate F1 seasons and have long ago secured championships, they prefer to maximize race results till the very end. Ferrari kept securing 1-2s till the end of 2002, likewise Red Bull in 2013. Teams, even if everything is "done", do not want bad PR and do not want to look unprofessional. Yeah, they could have told drivers "do what you want, titles are safe, let's have some fun". But they don't.

Hamilton may have had nothing to lose, but Mercedes felt they didn't want to look unprofessional by barely getting through the last few laps of the race.
Spot on Jens. A F1 team will without fail want to win every Grand Prix they enter even if championships are done. The numbers get bigger and it could be your last.
Even in the final round of a season where you 1-2 on every race, you would be daft to not look after the 1-2 in the last few laps.

Sent from my GT-I9301I using Tapatalk

[Bagwan]

Spot on Jens. A F1 team will without fail want to win every Grand Prix they enter even if championships are done. The numbers get bigger and it could be your last.
Even in the final round of a season where you 1-2 on every race, you would be daft to not look after the 1-2 in the last few laps.

Sent from my GT-I9301I using Tapatalk

If they were far enough ahead to have a pit stop in hand , then maybe you could let them race , but the Merc has a hard time behind another car , seemingly , so it's only a try at a risky , "keep your tires sweet" gamble that might get you there . That's why Lewis thought it wasn't a good idea to stop .

But , there's enough bad blood between them right now that it wouldn't be a good idea to have them arguing over space anyway . That would get too expensive , and risk the 2nd place in the WDC .

[Nitrodaze]

If they were far enough ahead to have a pit stop in hand , then maybe you could let them race , but the Merc has a hard time behind another car , seemingly , so it's only a try at a risky , "keep your tires sweet" gamble that might get you there . That's why Lewis thought it wasn't a good idea to stop .

But , there's enough bad blood between them right now that it wouldn't be a good idea to have them arguing over space anyway . That would get too expensive , and risk the 2nd place in the WDC .

I am not sure what race you were watching, it certainly does not sound like Mexico.

[jens]

Rosberg goes from here to win back-to-back races. Or how much is it Hamilton not really being fully in the game after securing the WDC? Then again Rosberg is good enough driver to beat Hamilton a few times on merit over a season anyway.

Five consecutive poles? Not bad, but as usual with Nico - he is on average a better qualifying driver than race driver.

[COD]

Kimi's contracts is only for next season, so Ferrari could lure Niko. But could he beat Vettel in similar machine? If Honda gets their act together, mac could be an option?

[Warriwa]

Kimi's contracts is only for next season, so Ferrari could lure Niko. But could he beat Vettel in similar machine? If Honda gets their act together, mac could be an option?


I like your ideas. That would be fantastic to see. Then Ricco into the Merc. Max into the Bull. Bottas into the Mac. Yes please. (wish list only)

[Mia 01]

Rosberg is whit the best and warmest team he can be. Where is hotter then hell?

[jens]

I don't see Ferrari employing two Germans. And I don't see Rosberg leaving Mercedes anyway, because there is no better place for him to be. It may be hard to beat Hamilton, but it is going to be harder in other teams and in inferior cars.

Only possibility is if Mercedes wants to take on a "challenge" and hire either Ricciardo or Verstappen (or Alonso) to see if either can take on Hamilton. Though top teams often like "stability", so from Merc' point of view there may not be much of a reason to go for another driver as long as they keep winning.

[dj_bytedisaster]

I don't see Ferrari employing two Germans. And I don't see Rosberg leaving Mercedes anyway, because there is no better place for him to be. It may be hard to beat Hamilton, but it is going to be harder in other teams and in inferior cars.

Only possibility is if Mercedes wants to take on a "challenge" and hire either Ricciardo or Verstappen (or Alonso) to see if either can take on Hamilton. Though top teams often like "stability", so from Merc' point of view there may not be much of a reason to go for another driver as long as they keep winning.

They won't. Earlier this year, when the Hülkenberg-to-Ferrari rumours were still flying, Arrivabene stated categorically that Ferrari will not hire two drivers of the same nation unless they are both Italian.

[henners88]

Hamilton needs to stop partying now he's won the WDC and get his focus back on F1. The off season has plenty of time to celebrate.

[Bagwan]

Hamilton needs to stop partying now he's won the WDC and get his focus back on F1. The off season has plenty of time to celebrate.

Yes , of course it's not about Rosberg upping his game , but rather more about Lewis dropping his .

[Jag_Warrior]

Hamilton needs to stop partying now he's won the WDC and get his focus back on F1. The off season has plenty of time to celebrate.


Yes , of course it's not about Rosberg upping his game , but rather more about Lewis dropping his .


I think you're both right. Bragging about how much he's been drinking and admitting that it was the jet-setting and partying that wore him down, all that should tell Hamilton to get it together. He can claim to hold Senna as his hero. But Senna never took his eye off the prize. And I believe that Senna would have used this opportunity to complete the job of crushing Rosberg's spirit, establishing himself as the undisputed #1 within the team. Instead, Hamilton kicked Rosberg, made him mad and then let him get back up. I'd say that Rosberg has never been emotionally stronger. He's now beaten Hamilton two races in a row, heads up - no luck involved. I can't remember the last time that happened.

Not that my opinion matters, but I suggest that Lewis remember Vettel's prophetic words from a couple of seasons ago: "...this may not last forever."

[henners88]

Yes , of course it's not about Rosberg upping his game , but rather more about Lewis dropping his .

Personally I think it's a bit of both.

[Nitrodaze]

Kimi's contracts is only for next season, so Ferrari could lure Niko. But could he beat Vettel in similar machine? If Honda gets their act together, mac could be an option?

Rosberg leaving Mercedes for any other team would be the clearest acceptance of defeat. With that mindset, l doubt he would fair any better against Vettel, and certainly much worst against Alonso. Besides, he is in the best car and the best team on the grid, why on earth would he want to move to a less performing team?

From Mercedes, they have exactly what l would call the dream driver lineup. Both capable of driving within a hundredth of a second off each others best times. Both capable of winning races when the other is not able to, for whatever reason. With this sort of lineup, one has to be really daft to change a winning formula such as this. Mercedes are where Ferrari and Williams like to be with their driver lineup. Hence Mercedes do not need Ricciado or Verstapen at this moment. I think Verstapenn would be great for Merc in 2 years time, roughly 2018.

[Bagwan]

Personally I think it's a bit of both.

Good .

[Bagwan]

Rosberg leaving Mercedes for any other team would be the clearest acceptance of defeat. With that mindset, l doubt he would fair any better against Vettel, and certainly much worst against Alonso. Besides, he is in the best car and the best team on the grid, why on earth would he want to move to a less performing team?

From Mercedes, they have exactly what l would call the dream driver lineup. Both capable of driving within a hundredth of a second off each others best times. Both capable of winning races when the other is not able to, for whatever reason. With this sort of lineup, one has to be really daft to change a winning formula such as this. Mercedes are where Ferrari and Williams like to be with their driver lineup. Hence Mercedes do not need Ricciado or Verstapen at this moment. I think Verstapenn would be great for Merc in 2 years time, roughly 2018.

Rosberg's cheaper , less hassle , and would have won without Lewis in the way , so should it be "Where does Hamilton go from here ?"

[henners88]

So do we forget Hamilton has won the world championship this year, his second in a row and start hailing Nico as the better driver because he's won a couple of races? He has certainly had the better of Lewis in qualifying this year but considering the superiority of the car he has not beaten his teammate and was in danger of losing second place in the WDC only a couple of races back. Last year there were too many instances where Lewis forced Nico into mistakes, out breaking himself under pressure and I think mentally lewis has had Nico covered this past 2 years.

Nico could win the last race by 10 seconds+ but it means nothing. He needs to beat his teammate over the course of a season and needs to be winning from the early part of next season in order to give himself a decent chance. Nico needs to stay at Merc and so does Lewis.

[Bagwan]

So do we forget Hamilton has won the world championship this year, his second in a row and start hailing Nico as the better driver because he's won a couple of races? He has certainly had the better of Lewis in qualifying this year but considering the superiority of the car he has not beaten his teammate and was in danger of losing second place in the WDC only a couple of races back. Last year there were too many instances where Lewis forced Nico into mistakes, out breaking himself under pressure and I think mentally lewis has had Nico covered this past 2 years.

Nico could win the last race by 10 seconds+ but it means nothing. He needs to beat his teammate over the course of a season and needs to be winning from the early part of next season in order to give himself a decent chance. Nico needs to stay at Merc and so does Lewis.

Yeah , man .
Forget all that stuff . It's in the past .

What's he done lately ?


Sorry , henners , old man , I seem to have wound you up again .
Just pointing out that the title is a bit absurd , with suggesting Hammy might need to go .

There is a grain of truth to it , though , as his head does seem a little larger of late , with some of his latest quotes about Michael , and then about some of his competitors .

And , you , of course , need your team behind you .
Questioning them won't help .

[Nitrodaze]

Rosberg's cheaper , less hassle , and would have won without Lewis in the way , so should it be "Where does Hamilton go from here ?"

I doubt Hamilton would be going anywhere else as long as the Merc remains the team to beat. He is in a team where he can win championships and there more opportunities for him to up his tally of world championships. He has delivered the goods to Mercedes as prescribed by his contract and Mercedes would be crazy to let him go. Besides he is tied in for a couple of seasons at least.
That said, where would he want to go to, given the opportunity? Ferrari? Mclaren? I can't see any of these options as viable options as they lack the performance criteria to suggest they could win championships at this time.

[Mia 01]

I remember the fallout between Lewis and Alonso 2007. Noone thought Alonso would go, but he had to. This time its Lewis time.

[henners88]

Yeah , man .
Forget all that stuff . It's in the past .

What's he done lately ?


Sorry , henners , old man , I seem to have wound you up again .
Just pointing out that the title is a bit absurd , with suggesting Hammy might need to go .

There is a grain of truth to it , though , as his head does seem a little larger of late , with some of his latest quotes about Michael , and then about some of his competitors .

And , you , of course , need your team behind you .
Questioning them won't help .

You haven't wound me up. Mercedes are not going to let the guy who has won the last 2 WDCs and who is worth a hell of a lot more in marketing revenue and who promotes the brand in North America. He might be a bit of a nob but he's good for business. Questioning the team is small fry in the grand scheme and Nico does his fair share of that.

[henners88]

I remember the fallout between Lewis and Alonso 2007. Noone thought Alonso would go, but he had to. This time its Lewis time.
Everybody expected Alonso to leave McLaren in 2007, he blackmailed the team and his fallout with Lewis was just the start.

Lewis has delivered for the past 2 seasons and i don't agree the team should settle for second best. Rosberg needs to win and only he can drive that ambition. Rosberg is more in danger of being replaced at this moment in time both here and in dream world.

[Nitrodaze]

You haven't wound me up. Mercedes are not going to let the guy who has won the last 2 WDCs and who is worth a hell of a lot more in marketing revenue and who promotes the brand in North America. He might be a bit of a nob but he's good for business. Questioning the team is small fry in the grand scheme and Nico does his fair share of that.

Sorry buddy, l can't see how you could call one of the coolest guys on the grid a nob. But then again l don't understand what you mean so could you explain please.

[Big Ben]

one of the coolest guys on the grid? :laugh: maybe... who knows? i think that justin beaver guy is cool too so it's not really a good thing. Nob sounds more appropriate. maybe nob and cool are not mutually exclusive these days

[Bagwan]

You haven't wound me up. Mercedes are not going to let the guy who has won the last 2 WDCs and who is worth a hell of a lot more in marketing revenue and who promotes the brand in North America. He might be a bit of a nob but he's good for business. Questioning the team is small fry in the grand scheme and Nico does his fair share of that.

Hell , according to the ads on TV at the moment , he finds another gear .

The pressure is on , though , because he has to win to justify that salary .

But , maybe being a nob , and keeping them in the news with some controversy is seen as good for business .

Maybe letting Nico win a few when it doesn't matter is his plan , only to crush him into submission in the first race of next season .

[Bagwan]

Sorry buddy, l can't see how you could call one of the coolest guys on the grid a nob. But then again l don't understand what you mean so could you explain please.

If I can help , I'd say that he means that Lewis says and does some pretty dumb things sometimes , where one could brand him a real nob , but he is also a really fast driver who also does some really good things , thereby making him worth it despite his faults .

A cool nob .

[Bagwan]

one of the coolest guys on the grid? :laugh: maybe... who knows? i think that justin beaver guy is cool too so it's not really a good thing. Nob sounds more appropriate. maybe nob and cool are not mutually exclusive these days

Name's LH Cool Nob ,
and dis is my way ,
cuz I know it's my job
to say dumb sh!t deez dayz .

Fever , I says
When I parties wit ma ,
three rides dat I hit ?
I jus saw one car .

Now when I use twitter
my team don need worry .
I don tweet telemetry .
I jus tweet dat I'm sorry .

[henners88]

Sorry buddy, l can't see how you could call one of the coolest guys on the grid a nob. But then again l don't understand what you mean so could you explain please.
I've been a fan of Hamilton that pre dates my 7 years on this forum but some of his private life stuff irritates me sometimes. His comments about God and how blessed he is combined with his often appalling style choices make him look a bit desperate on social media IMO. This is thing that has accelerated over the past 3 years and it's been a little cringe worthy at times. He is filthy rich though and is evidently enjoying every minute of it.

I think he's an amazing driver though and an absolute pleasure to watch. I defend most of his outbursts at GP's and mostly see the good side in his behaviour. I'm a Hamilton fan first and fore most. He can just be a bit of a nob at times. :)

[Nitrodaze]

I've been a fan of Hamilton that pre dates my 7 years on this forum but some of his private life stuff irritates me sometimes. His comments about God and how blessed he is combined with his often appalling style choices make him look a bit desperate on social media IMO. This is thing that has accelerated over the past 3 years and it's been a little cringe worthy at times. He is filthy rich though and is evidently enjoying every minute of it.

I think he's an amazing driver though and an absolute pleasure to watch. I defend most of his outbursts at GP's and mostly see the good side in his behaviour. I'm a Hamilton fan first and fore most. He can just be a bit of a nob at times. :)

I see what you mean. The great thing about each of us being individuals and essentially human, is that we all have our own unique quirks. Some good and some indifferent. Hence why it is sometimes difficult to like everything about anyone. The very reason why there are divorces, war, prejudices and sometimes pure love. I take the good with the indifferent.

[henners88]

I see what you mean. The great thing about each of us being individuals and essentially human, is that we all have our own unique quirks. Some good and some indifferent. Hence why it is sometimes difficult to like everything about anyone. The very reason why there are divorces, war, prejudices and sometimes pure love. I take the good with the indifferent.
I suppose he's got a lot more vain and conscious of his image because he is thinking long term about his brand. He was on the radio yesterday talking about going through an experimental stage and about being a style icon. It's stuff like that that makes me cringe. This is him today on social media:
822
823
A great driver, my favourite, but apart from being an F1 driver, I can't relate to the coolness he is trying to push out. He is a similar age to me too so it's not generational. He does wear cool IWC watches though ;)

[The Black Knight]

I suppose he's got a lot more vain and conscious of his image because he is thinking long term about his brand. He was on the radio yesterday talking about going through an experimental stage and about being a style icon. It's stuff like that that makes me cringe. This is him today on social media:
822
823
A great driver, my favourite, but apart from being an F1 driver, I can't relate to the coolness he is trying to push out. He is a similar age to me too so it's not generational. He does wear cool IWC watches though ;)

He's certainly a lot different from the Lewis Hamilton that came into the sport in 2007. I agree he can be a bit of a knob. I remember one picture of him on twitter a couple of months back with a big pink hat on him. It was the ultimate in cringe.

But I couldn't really care less about what the drivers do outside of the sport. Like it or not, he's bringing a lot of attention to F1 and it is people like him that reach those that might not be reached under normal circumstances. He might be cringe but he's a great for the sport in that regard. Most drivers up until now have simply been coming to the GP's, doing their weekends work. spending some time with Engineers along with the required sponsorship and that's it. He's living his life how he wants to live it and, while it may be cringe in certain regards, I admire that he is doing it his way. I don't regard him as living a rock star lifestyle, we'll reserve that for the likes of the Rolling Stones whereas Hamilton is more boyz in da hood!

There's no doubting his talents behind the wheel. He is fantastic to watch but I do feel he can be better and is not exactly reaching the peak of his talents yet. If he spent more time with his Engineers, I don't think Nico would get a sideways look in but as it stands now, with him partying so much, I can't see how he is extracting the maximum from himself or his package. You simply can't live the lifestyle he has lead over the past month in particular and be at your ultimate level of fitness or preparedness. I'm fully convinced this is why Nico has suddenly gotten on top of him. I've been watching his qualifying laps on board throughout the entire year. I've seen all his pole laps as they happened from on board camera and there is a significant difference in the last couple of races with how well he is driving compared to earlier on in the year. His laps earlier in the year were just ballistic, perfect with every ounce extracted from the car. They haven't been that way in the last 5-6 grand prix and to me that's been pretty clear. In a race he still seems to have the upper hand on Nico, in that if he got out front I'd would expect he'd pull away, but he needs to pop it on pole to get that chance.

[jens]

I see what you mean. The great thing about each of us being individuals and essentially human, is that we all have our own unique quirks. Some good and some indifferent. Hence why it is sometimes difficult to like everything about anyone. The very reason why there are divorces, war, prejudices and sometimes pure love. I take the good with the indifferent.

That's pretty well said. :)

It depends, what is anyone's definition to being "cool", but for me Ricciardo is perhaps the coolest guy out there. He just seems like a great personality, that's it. And I like Vettel for his humour and apparent easy-goingness.

But overall yeah, they are all personalities in their own way and do not need to be perfect. And in all honesty we simply don't know many things about them either - and don't need to know either. We know, what is reflected through (social) media.

In a way they are all normal human beings, who are having an extraordinary lifestyle. They are under lots of pressure and sometimes make mistakes (not just in racing, but also off-track). As long as they are not criminals, I guess they are just fine. Which means we do not need to overanalyze their 'quirks', which every normal person around us - and we ourselves - have anyway.

[Bagwan]

Sorry , kids , but that's all BS .

It's the personalities that we watch , like Ricciardo's smile , or Massa's plucky come-back , or Kimi's wry sense of humour .
We wait impatiently to hear reactions from drivers after incidents on track to get their take on just what happened .

That's all about personality .

It is truly more exciting to know the back story when two unrelenting egos enter a corner vying for position .


These guys are in the limelight .
Some take it and hide it away , and that's fair game .

And some , like Lewis , go out and run with it , which is also fair game .

But , really , as nobody is in this game for very long , all should be acting a little more like Lewis , as his antics seemingly keep the sport in the news almost as much as the sport , itself does .
Driving is only part of it .

You can try to be the curmudgeonly millionaire , and be less marketable when it comes to contract time , or you can , "a la Hunt" , have fun with it .
Maybe somewhere in between the two might be best , but it's a part of what keeps the whole thing going .

Everyone wants to know the full story of their heroes .

You love his driving but he can be a nob .
You'd like him better if he was never a nob .

Point made .

[Firstgear]

I remember one picture of him on twitter a couple of months back with a big pink hat on him.



He's always said his childhood 'F1' hero was Senna. Maybe his 'style' hero is MS.:p

[henners88]

He's certainly a lot different from the Lewis Hamilton that came into the sport in 2007. I agree he can be a bit of a knob. I remember one picture of him on twitter a couple of months back with a big pink hat on him. It was the ultimate in cringe.

But I couldn't really care less about what the drivers do outside of the sport. Like it or not, he's bringing a lot of attention to F1 and it is people like him that reach those that might not be reached under normal circumstances. He might be cringe but he's a great for the sport in that regard. Most drivers up until now have simply been coming to the GP's, doing their weekends work. spending some time with Engineers along with the required sponsorship and that's it. He's living his life how he wants to live it and, while it may be cringe in certain regards, I admire that he is doing it his way. I don't regard him as living a rock star lifestyle, we'll reserve that for the likes of the Rolling Stones whereas Hamilton is more boyz in da hood!

There's no doubting his talents behind the wheel. He is fantastic to watch but I do feel he can be better and is not exactly reaching the peak of his talents yet. If he spent more time with his Engineers, I don't think Nico would get a sideways look in but as it stands now, with him partying so much, I can't see how he is extracting the maximum from himself or his package. You simply can't live the lifestyle he has lead over the past month in particular and be at your ultimate level of fitness or preparedness. I'm fully convinced this is why Nico has suddenly gotten on top of him. I've been watching his qualifying laps on board throughout the entire year. I've seen all his pole laps as they happened from on board camera and there is a significant difference in the last couple of races with how well he is driving compared to earlier on in the year. His laps earlier in the year were just ballistic, perfect with every ounce extracted from the car. They haven't been that way in the last 5-6 grand prix and to me that's been pretty clear. In a race he still seems to have the upper hand on Nico, in that if he got out front I'd would expect he'd pull away, but he needs to pop it on pole to get that chance.

Yeah he is a fantastic talent and is bringing a lot of fans to F1, and in a time where less people are watching if that makes sense? He's appealing to the younger generation where the likes of Vettel and Rosberg are perhaps too bland? Still, his humble background is long forgotten and he is a 'big baller' now lol. He has a photographer following him wherever he goes and it doesn't matter if he posts accidental posed photos on Instagram. He did a great interview with Watchanish yesterday on Periscope which was worth a look for anybody who likes watches. ;)

[dj_bytedisaster]

Yeah he is a fantastic talent and is bringing a lot of fans to F1, and in a time where less people are watching if that makes sense? He's appealing to the younger generation where the likes of Vettel and Rosberg are perhaps too bland? Still, his humble background is long forgotten and he is a 'big baller' now lol. He has a photographer following him wherever he goes and it doesn't matter if he posts accidental posed photos on Instagram. He did a great interview with Watchanish yesterday on Periscope which was worth a look for anybody who likes watches. ;)

That is a completely objective thing though. What you call bland, is the normal behaviour for a German. You have to understand that for Germans it was historically not a good idea to stand out. For East Germans that was true until as recently as 1989. The best way to ensure a trouble-free life was to conform to the given norm. As a result that cultural trait has survived in most Germans to the present day, especially for people like me, who were born and grew up in a dictatorship.

Many Germans consider Lewis' extroverted antics annoying, which is why he has not many fans over here except for hard-core Merc fans, who like him by proxy, and the reason for that has nothing to do with race or nationality (as is often insinuated if one dares to criticise Hamilton), it's just that many Germans dislike such extroverted antics. I'm sure there are other ethnicities for which that is true as well.

[jens]

Vettel is certainly not someone you can call bland. People either like him or hate him, but few are indifferent. I can understand drivers like Hülkenberg or Glock are very modest and you won't know much about them. Same with Kovalainen.

Personally I don't like the phrase 'bland'. It is often a way to protect someone's ignorance to discover new different things/people; and also a way to defend ridiculous antics by saying "but at least it is exciting".

[henners88]

That is a completely objective thing though. What you call bland, is the normal behaviour for a German. You have to understand that for Germans it was historically not a good idea to stand out. For East Germans that was true until as recently as 1989. The best way to ensure a trouble-free life was to conform to the given norm. As a result that cultural trait has survived in most Germans to the present day, especially for people like me, who were born and grew up in a dictatorship.

Many Germans consider Lewis' extroverted antics annoying, which is why he has not many fans over here except for hard-core Merc fans, who like him by proxy, and the reason for that has nothing to do with race or nationality (as is often insinuated if one dares to criticise Hamilton), it's just that many Germans dislike such extroverted antics. I'm sure there are other ethnicities for which that is true as well.
Yeah it is very subjective and my use of the word bland was more in line with them being very normal, like you or me. Lewis is pushing out an image and perhaps he has many more fans because of this? He's living the playboy lifestyle and mixing with the stars and this is appealing to many in this ever increasing plastic society. Rosberg and Vettel are talented and humble.

I like Rosberg and Vettel and can relate to them, whereas I can't any longer with Hamilton. I still prefer him as a driver though simply for the entertainment.

[Roamy]

he goes from jr water bucket carrier to sr water bucket carrier for hamilton. plus hamilton may let him wear a earring if he buys lauda an ear

[Nitrodaze]

That is a completely objective thing though. What you call bland, is the normal behaviour for a German. You have to understand that for Germans it was historically not a good idea to stand out. For East Germans that was true until as recently as 1989. The best way to ensure a trouble-free life was to conform to the given norm. As a result that cultural trait has survived in most Germans to the present day, especially for people like me, who were born and grew up in a dictatorship.

Many Germans consider Lewis' extroverted antics annoying, which is why he has not many fans over here except for hard-core Merc fans, who like him by proxy, and the reason for that has nothing to do with race or nationality (as is often insinuated if one dares to criticise Hamilton), it's just that many Germans dislike such extroverted antics. I'm sure there are other ethnicities for which that is true as well.

What you call extroverted is the hall mark of the pop culture. It is a movement that has gripped the British youth and mainstream since the sixties. Evidence of it is still prominent in the US, France, Spain, Canada and even Germany etc. To a certain extent, pop culture has waned in recent times but still has a strong presence in the performance arts; music scenes and is making in roads into sports.

Your typical sport personality is very serious and professional like. Mostly politically correct and primed for media interactions. This unfortunately makes almost all sport personalities very boring outside their sporting duties. Take tennis for instance, besides the entertainment of great athleticism of the show, the tennis players are usually very bland. Gone are the days when tennis players let their hair down and reveal their human nature, God l miss John McEroe, Connor, Boris Becker etc. Except a small few not afraid to make fashion statements like the Williams sisters and their earrings etc. I am sure you can name a few others.

The case is very much the same with F1 drivers. Most are quite uninteresting outside the car. Most very rarely show any hint of individualism beside asserting their thoughts during media interviews. Any display of individualism is frowned upon and dismissed as childish and not serious. Or immature.

Hamilton has dared to bring about a cross between the racing world and the arts world. Two paradigms at opposite ends of the human spectrum. A mix of the serious world of F1 and the playful but expressively extravagant culture of the performance art world. It is a daring experiment and certainly challenging the typical F1 culture to dare letting their hair down for a little bit. The great thing about it all, is Hamilton has demonstrated that his individualistic lifestyle has little impact on his abilities to deliver championship winning performances as witnessed this last two years.

There are enough socially conformant [politically correct] drivers on the grid, hence one non conformant individualistic pop culture driver among these lot is most welcomed in my book. Kind of like a modern day Hunt, but different.

[The Black Knight]

Interesting article here from Hamilton on his recent qualifying form dip:

http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/14247855/lewis-hamilton-opens-dip-qualifying-form

It explains a lot actually and makes some more sense on why he has lost 6 poles in a row. One thing I noticed from the onboard camera this weekend is that Hamilton's car looked far less stable than Rosberg's. I'm surprised Mercedes made such drastic changes to the car just because of one bad race weekend. As long as he knows the reasons for it I wouldn't be too concerned if I were Lewis as it's likely they can sort it over the winter and the new car may not have the same issues.

Great job by Rosberg again though. Impressive run of results and showing how good he really is!

[steveaki13]

Rosberg is flying at the moment.

It would be amazing and exciting if he could start 2016 like this and really give us a title fight next year.

[Nitrodaze]

yea yea, Mercs are boring

[steveaki13]

Well this race aint exciting is it?

[dj_bytedisaster]

Rosberg is flying at the moment.

It would be amazing and exciting if he could start 2016 like this and really give us a title fight next year.

Not gonna happen. He's only allowed to win because Hamilton already sealed his title.

[henners88]

Not gonna happen. He's only allowed to win because Hamilton already sealed his title.
It hasn't stopped Merc letting them race in the past. Last season was a closer finish and Nico is really suited to the changes that have been made. Lewis by his own admission is struggling to adapt.

Do you think Lewis only wins because the team fix it for him and are now fixing it so Nico gets some wins as season was already decided?

[Bagwan]

Toto said :
"The biggest weakness is the dynamic of the relationship between the drivers , and sometimes between the drivers and the team."

I wonder if he was talking about anyone in specific .

[The Black Knight]

Toto said :
"The biggest weakness is the dynamic of the relationship between the drivers , and sometimes between the drivers and the team."

I wonder if he was talking about anyone in specific .

Well given that Rosberg was pouting for most of the year as he got his ass kicked and that Mercedes have been trying everything to appease him recently then I'd say that's whom he is talking about.

[henners88]

Toto said :
"The biggest weakness is the dynamic of the relationship between the drivers , and sometimes between the drivers and the team."

I wonder if he was talking about anyone in specific .

I didn't think it was anybody specific as he said 'drivers'.

But if I had to speculate I would say perhaps Nico has been more difficult seeing as he has been the one behind and publicly unhappy for much of the season.

[Bagwan]

I didn't think it was anybody specific as he said 'drivers'.

But if I had to speculate I would say perhaps Nico has been more difficult seeing as he has been the one behind and publicly unhappy for much of the season.

You're right that he did say "drivers" , but given that Nico has been unhappy with Lewis , not Merc , and Lewis has been unhappy with the team because of strategy , the second part of the statement seems to be directly pointed at Hamilton , doesn't it ?
Add it to recent events and I think it is , albeit couched in political correctness with the added "s" .

It was within an interview where he said one would have to go if they couldn't get along .

This was , in my opinion , a direct shot across the bow , and with Nico having just poled and won the last three , a warning for the Lewis camp .
He was just told that nobody is bigger than the team .

[jens]

Whoever is second and finishes behind his team-mate, is unhappy. It is not rocket science. Just like Hamilton was unhappy late in the season.

Also there ARE tensions if you have got a top car and fight for the WDC. Because there is so much at stake as EVERYONE wants to win. Even the so-called second drivers would ideally like to win, but have to swallow the pride.

Of course Alonso and Button currently sit at the back and can smile together, because they have nothing to fight for. But imagine if team-mates Button and Alonso were at the front and battle for WDC, the knives would be out. You'll get guaranteed 'difficulties in relationship' if you fight for WDCs. No rocket science either.

Overall Hamilton and Rosberg have done fine together. Because there has been no major fall-out in the proportions of Senna vs Prost or Hamilton vs Alonso. Toto Wolff should know there is no ideal harmony in fight for WDCs. As long as there is no major fall-out, everything is "pretty fine". Let's be realistic with our expectations.

[The Black Knight]

You're right that he did say "drivers" , but given that Nico has been unhappy with Lewis , not Merc , and Lewis has been unhappy with the team because of strategy , the second part of the statement seems to be directly pointed at Hamilton , doesn't it ?
Add it to recent events and I think it is , albeit couched in political correctness with the added "s" .

It was within an interview where he said one would have to go if they couldn't get along .

This was , in my opinion , a direct shot across the bow , and with Nico having just poled and won the last three , a warning for the Lewis camp .
He was just told that nobody is bigger than the team .

Well this is all just speculation. At the end of the day it could have been aimed at either driver, however, considering he was suggesting the lineup could change for 2017 and that Hamilton's contract goes until end of 2017 and Nico's is out next year, and that Hamilton is unequivocally the faster driver, I find highly unlikely they'd want to be rid of him. Plus, from a marketing perspective, Lewis is much more marketable than Nico. Nico is just a downright bore, whereas Lewis is out at events, meeting with celebrities, bringing the Mercedes brand and Petronas under the public eye. There's no way Mercedes are going to want to give that up instead of a slower guy that sits at home with his wife and kids.

The simple fact is that it could be aimed at either driver, but Lewis Hamilton is box office and brings great attention to the team. Rosberg is boring and not as quick. It could be either but the likelihood, given all I've said above, is that Rosberg would be given the boot.

[jens]

What you call extroverted is the hall mark of the pop culture. It is a movement that has gripped the British youth and mainstream since the sixties. Evidence of it is still prominent in the US, France, Spain, Canada and even Germany etc. To a certain extent, pop culture has waned in recent times but still has a strong presence in the performance arts; music scenes and is making in roads into sports.

Your typical sport personality is very serious and professional like. Mostly politically correct and primed for media interactions. This unfortunately makes almost all sport personalities very boring outside their sporting duties. Take tennis for instance, besides the entertainment of great athleticism of the show, the tennis players are usually very bland. Gone are the days when tennis players let their hair down and reveal their human nature, God l miss John McEroe, Connor, Boris Becker etc. Except a small few not afraid to make fashion statements like the Williams sisters and their earrings etc. I am sure you can name a few others.

The case is very much the same with F1 drivers. Most are quite uninteresting outside the car. Most very rarely show any hint of individualism beside asserting their thoughts during media interviews. Any display of individualism is frowned upon and dismissed as childish and not serious. Or immature.

Hamilton has dared to bring about a cross between the racing world and the arts world. Two paradigms at opposite ends of the human spectrum. A mix of the serious world of F1 and the playful but expressively extravagant culture of the performance art world. It is a daring experiment and certainly challenging the typical F1 culture to dare letting their hair down for a little bit. The great thing about it all, is Hamilton has demonstrated that his individualistic lifestyle has little impact on his abilities to deliver championship winning performances as witnessed this last two years.

There are enough socially conformant [politically correct] drivers on the grid, hence one non conformant individualistic pop culture driver among these lot is most welcomed in my book. Kind of like a modern day Hunt, but different.

Well yeah. Fair enough.

I guess it comes down to personal preferences.

I personally... don't care about the off-track "bling". Those celebrities can wear what they want and can give as crazy interviews as they can, but I could care less. My attention is on other things.

Hence I don't feel much relation to discussions about how 'bland' someone is. IMO the most important thing is that person/celebrity feels well and natural. If it is 'natural' for him/her to be bland, it is better, than go out of your way and make antics to desperately catch attention.

When I want to watch F1, I watch the race. If there is no race, I turn my attention to other activites, and do not try to follow "F1 off-track soap opera". Except practical things, like driver silly season, contracts, political/regulational decisions, and such.

But yeah, each to their own.:)

[henners88]

You're right that he did say "drivers" , but given that Nico has been unhappy with Lewis , not Merc , and Lewis has been unhappy with the team because of strategy , the second part of the statement seems to be directly pointed at Hamilton , doesn't it ?
Add it to recent events and I think it is , albeit couched in political correctness with the added "s" .

It was within an interview where he said one would have to go if they couldn't get along .

This was , in my opinion , a direct shot across the bow , and with Nico having just poled and won the last three , a warning for the Lewis camp .
He was just told that nobody is bigger than the team .

Judging by the article on the BBC today it seems Nico complains behind the scenes a lot more than Lewis. Like yourself I am trying to find evidence to swing this towards Lewis being to blame, but quite a few sources now are pointing towards Nico.

[Bagwan]

Well this is all just speculation. At the end of the day it could have been aimed at either driver, however, considering he was suggesting the lineup could change for 2017 and that Hamilton's contract goes until end of 2017 and Nico's is out next year, and that Hamilton is unequivocally the faster driver, I find highly unlikely they'd want to be rid of him. Plus, from a marketing perspective, Lewis is much more marketable than Nico. Nico is just a downright bore, whereas Lewis is out at events, meeting with celebrities, bringing the Mercedes brand and Petronas under the public eye. There's no way Mercedes are going to want to give that up instead of a slower guy that sits at home with his wife and kids.

The simple fact is that it could be aimed at either driver, but Lewis Hamilton is box office and brings great attention to the team. Rosberg is boring and not as quick. It could be either but the likelihood, given all I've said above, is that Rosberg would be given the boot.

Now , Mr. Knight , you know what a contract is worth in F1 .

And , your Lewis has just been shown that they will change the car to suit Nico , despite his protests , and that Rosberg can win consistently as a result .

Behind the scenes , you'd have to figure that Rosberg was watching from the other side of the garage as Lewis tried to work with the new suspension .
And , thus , he saw it as an opportunity to show off in what he called a "mini-championship" of three races .

That's what he did , with poles and wins in all three .
All sewn up , with no drama .

Whereas Hamilton was such a pouty second that they had to hand him the strategy calls in the final outing .

Remember , they get the privilege of dealing with Lewis's antics for a much larger paycheck than old boring Nico .

You repeated a couple of times that Lewis is faster .
You're right that he was faster with the old configuration of the suspension , because it suited him rather than Nico .
Now , though , it's rather the other way around .


One could say that his flash marketing perspective is all he's got right now , without the outright pace to "humiliate" his team-mate , like he did earlier this year with a car that suited him rather than his team-mate .

Lewis is fast . Of that there is absolutely no doubt .
Any team would be happy with that .
And , he's outgoing , and going out to all the hot spots with all the hot people , bringing lots of bling and lines of press for F1 and his team , and any team should be happy with that .

But , he's trouble , and no team needs that .

[Nitrodaze]

Well yeah. Fair enough.

I guess it comes down to personal preferences.

I personally... don't care about the off-track "bling". Those celebrities can wear what they want and can give as crazy interviews as they can, but I could care less. My attention is on other things.

Hence I don't feel much relation to discussions about how 'bland' someone is. IMO the most important thing is that person/celebrity feels well and natural. If it is 'natural' for him/her to be bland, it is better, than go out of your way and make antics to desperately catch attention.

When I want to watch F1, I watch the race. If there is no race, I turn my attention to other activites, and do not try to follow "F1 off-track soap opera". Except practical things, like driver silly season, contracts, political/regulational decisions, and such.

But yeah, each to their own.:)

I can't argue with that. Fairly put. Each to his own and no judgement.

[henners88]

Now , Mr. Knight , you know what a contract is worth in F1 .

And , your Lewis has just been shown that they will change the car to suit Nico , despite his protests , and that Rosberg can win consistently as a result .

Behind the scenes , you'd have to figure that Rosberg was watching from the other side of the garage as Lewis tried to work with the new suspension .
And , thus , he saw it as an opportunity to show off in what he called a "mini-championship" of three races .

That's what he did , with poles and wins in all three .
All sewn up , with no drama .

Whereas Hamilton was such a pouty second that they had to hand him the strategy calls in the final outing .

Remember , they get the privilege of dealing with Lewis's antics for a much larger paycheck than old boring Nico .

You repeated a couple of times that Lewis is faster .
You're right that he was faster with the old configuration of the suspension , because it suited him rather than Nico .
Now , though , it's rather the other way around .


One could say that his flash marketing perspective is all he's got right now , without the outright pace to "humiliate" his team-mate , like he did earlier this year with a car that suited him rather than his team-mate .

Lewis is fast . Of that there is absolutely no doubt .
Any team would be happy with that .
And , he's outgoing , and going out to all the hot spots with all the hot people , bringing lots of bling and lines of press for F1 and his team , and any team should be happy with that .

But , he's trouble , and no team needs that .
What evidence do you have that Lewis is 'trouble'?

You simply dislike him to the point all other objective discussion is pushed aside because of it. No speculation is ever put where Lewis is not to blame for anything in your eyes. Once upon a time you were like Jens. You didn't have a favourite driver but were able to give a measured opinion. Now it's just overly negative bias and that's very sad.

[Bagwan]

What evidence do you have that Lewis is 'trouble'?

You simply dislike him to the point all other objective discussion is pushed aside because of it. No speculation is ever put where Lewis is not to blame for anything in your eyes. Once upon a time you were like Jens. You didn't have a favourite driver but were able to give a measured opinion. Now it's just overly negative bias and that's very sad.

Maybe I should have said "has trouble getting along with team-mates , and strategists"

Lewis is really good .
Make that really , really good .

But , he's got such incredible self-belief that it gets way under his skin way too fast if he's not faster than the guy in equal machinery .

And , usually , that's not a problem , because he is so damn fast .


The "trouble" of which I speak is the trouble to which Toto points .
It's not getting along with your team-mate , and questioning strategy .



It doesn't matter how many times you tell me that I hate or dislike Lewis .
It won't work .

I love the guy . He's great .
He's like a ticking time bomb , always good for controversy on track and off . You never know what's coming next .


Even if you say that Toto's words were a warning for them both , who do you think it rang louder for when he said that either of them could go ?
Do you think it would be the guy with the longer contract ?
Or , maybe the guy with the more lucrative contract ?
Or , perhaps the guy who just won them 2 titles ?

He's not bigger than the team .



And , I've never been as cool as Jens .

[The Black Knight]

Now , Mr. Knight , you know what a contract is worth in F1 .

And , your Lewis has just been shown that they will change the car to suit Nico , despite his protests , and that Rosberg can win consistently as a result .

Behind the scenes , you'd have to figure that Rosberg was watching from the other side of the garage as Lewis tried to work with the new suspension .
And , thus , he saw it as an opportunity to show off in what he called a "mini-championship" of three races .

That's what he did , with poles and wins in all three .
All sewn up , with no drama .

Whereas Hamilton was such a pouty second that they had to hand him the strategy calls in the final outing .

Remember , they get the privilege of dealing with Lewis's antics for a much larger paycheck than old boring Nico .

You repeated a couple of times that Lewis is faster .
You're right that he was faster with the old configuration of the suspension , because it suited him rather than Nico .
Now , though , it's rather the other way around .


One could say that his flash marketing perspective is all he's got right now , without the outright pace to "humiliate" his team-mate , like he did earlier this year with a car that suited him rather than his team-mate .

Lewis is fast . Of that there is absolutely no doubt .
Any team would be happy with that .
And , he's outgoing , and going out to all the hot spots with all the hot people , bringing lots of bling and lines of press for F1 and his team , and any team should be happy with that .

But , he's trouble , and no team needs that .

Unfortunately, it is sentences like this that let you down. The idea that any team would change modifications to intentionally disadvantage one of their drivers is just absurd. There is no evidence or nor has there ever been a suggestion from Lewis or anyone that Mercedes modified the car to suit Nico. They modified it to prevent a Singapore repeat with a side affect being it disadvantaged Hamilton. This is pretty obvious. I haven't read the rest of your post because you're back to making ridiculous stuff up again and I couldn't be bothered nitpicking at every line you write that is without foundation.

[Nitrodaze]

Unfortunately, it is sentences like this that let you down. The idea that any team would change modifications to intentionally disadvantage one of their drivers is just absurd. There is no evidence or nor has there ever been a suggestion from Lewis or anyone that Mercedes modified the car to suit Nico. They modified it to prevent a Singapore repeat with a side affect being it disadvantaged Hamilton. This is pretty obvious. I haven't read the rest of your post because you're back to making ridiculous stuff up again and I couldn't be bothered nitpicking at every line you write that is without foundation.

True, Mercedes had to modify the car for the higher pressures imposed by Pirelli. Clearly the resulting setup of the car has favored Rosberg with Hamilton looking somewhat lost and showing signs of frustration with the new setup.
I agree it would be wrong to suggest that Mercedes have made the changes to favor Rosberg. Rosberg has adapted better than Hamilton to the new setup, hence have beaten Hamilton fair and square to three consecutive pole positions and race wins.

That said, the resulting difference in performance between Rosberg and Hamilton is puzzling enough for many to speculate. At Abu Dhabi, it was over 0.300sec, which was clearly a huge reversal performance considering Hamilton was regularly about 0.200sec faster than Rosberg on most qualifying sessions prior to Singapore. That was a loss of roughly 0.500sec to a full second of performance. This sort of change is noticeable and very puzzling and food for wild speculations.

[Bagwan]

Unfortunately, it is sentences like this that let you down. The idea that any team would change modifications to intentionally disadvantage one of their drivers is just absurd. There is no evidence or nor has there ever been a suggestion from Lewis or anyone that Mercedes modified the car to suit Nico. They modified it to prevent a Singapore repeat with a side affect being it disadvantaged Hamilton. This is pretty obvious. I haven't read the rest of your post because you're back to making ridiculous stuff up again and I couldn't be bothered nitpicking at every line you write that is without foundation.

So , I'll take it as you needing me to rephrase what I said , so you won't misinterpret it again .

Whatever Merc did with the suspension has disadvantaged Lewis .
He , himself , mentions that they wouldn't change it back despite his protests .

So , in actual fact , they have , knowingly , albeit with intent to make the car faster , given a distinct advantage to Nico , and a similar disadvantage to Lewis .
Now he's in the very same boat that Nico was in earlier in the year , unable to get the car working as well as his team-mate , and behind by about the same margin .


He's responded to Toto's rant about team unity , but only to "poo poo" it , saying :
“So it is difficult, but this side is always blown out of proportion. We have had 16 one-twos, so our relationship isn’t really causing any problems.It is not like he has been distracted and not finished high up or vice versa, so I think ultimately it is easy for people to take things for granted. We have both done a great job.”


So , the guy writing the check says there's a problem , and the guy who's getting the check says there isn't .

Anybody else see the problem here , or is it just me ?

[Jag_Warrior]

I agree with you, Bagwan, in that if the guy writing the check (sort of) says that there is a problem, then there is a problem... within the team, at least. But I think it's more likely that Mercedes and Wolff are playing the long game here, looking ahead to 2017 and beyond, when the gap to Ferrari, and maybe Red Bull and others, will have probably closed. Both Hamilton and Rosberg scored enough points individually this year that even with Susie Wolff in the second car, Mercedes would have still captured 3rd place in the Constructors Championship. With this dominant monster of a car, either one of them, paired with a roughly competent second driver, could have probably delivered a Constructors trophy, which is what Mercedes really cares about. But once the gap closes (and it will), the question becomes, what driver lineup can still deliver the big annual trophy at the end of a season? Against a Vettel (or whomever) in a strong car, we know from past history that Hamilton can go wheel to wheel. We don't know that about Rosberg. We only know that on occasion he can deliver the goods. So despite his season ending form, if I'm looking at the long game, and also knowing the Nico's contract is up at the end of next season, I don't think that I'd be too confident, if I were Nico.

Hamilton's deal runs through the end of 2018, if I'm not mistaken. And while they could play with whether or not Lewis is on track in a silver car, Mercedes will still be writing him a $50 million (or whatever) check every year. IMO, they could just as easily find another, more obedient second driver to pair with Hamilton... unless Nico learns to sing "Don't Worry, Be Happy". My guess is, as Nico starts negotiating his new post-2016 contract in a few months, there will be terms in his new deal which will "encourage" him to sing along to that old Bobby McFerrin album. However it pans out, I think Mercedes is going to have to find a way to quieten things down between these two before the heated battle of 2017 and beyond begins.

[Storm]

....
But , he's trouble , and no team needs that .

I am wise (and old on the forums) enough not to get caught up in the my driver your driver BS thesedays..but tht sentence makes no sense.

What trouble has Hamilton caused exactly? (btw I am NOT a fan of LH , I do admire his driving skills)
if it's off track stuff etc no I'm not really bothered...but has he done anything to jeopardize his seat?
He is a triple WC. Of course every team would be dying to get him on-board.

[Bagwan]

I am wise (and old on the forums) enough not to get caught up in the my driver your driver BS thesedays..but tht sentence makes no sense.

What trouble has Hamilton caused exactly? (btw I am NOT a fan of LH , I do admire his driving skills)
if it's off track stuff etc no I'm not really bothered...but has he done anything to jeopardize his seat?
He is a triple WC. Of course every team would be dying to get him on-board.

Well , forum-wise , I'm older , and it seems you have been caught up in the conversation , so I'm not sure you are wise enough to stay out of it either , Storm , old man .

He doesn't get on with team-mates too well , and questions his team regularly .
You had better be fast if you are disruptive .

And , according to Toto , he was trying hard .

He just wasn't fast enough .

[Nitrodaze]

I am wise (and old on the forums) enough not to get caught up in the my driver your driver BS thesedays..but tht sentence makes no sense.

What trouble has Hamilton caused exactly? (btw I am NOT a fan of LH , I do admire his driving skills)
if it's off track stuff etc no I'm not really bothered...but has he done anything to jeopardize his seat?
He is a triple WC. Of course every team would be dying to get him on-board.

Bagwan is notoriously anti-Hamilton, hence his perspective is unlikely to be objective.

[Bagwan]

Bagwan is notoriously anti-Hamilton, hence his perspective is unlikely to be objective.

You know , Nitro , the world needs guys in black hats as well as ones in white ones .

Hamilton's bad boy rapper image fits perfectly with the series right now , and the disruption within the team has been what has really made it interesting this season .
Without the tension between Nico and Lewis , it could have been a much bigger yawn .

Sure , I've been on Nico's side in most of the debates this season , but I think I've been reasonably consistent in my assessments of the clashes .

I try not to get too bent out of shape when folks brand me on here .
But , I'd rather they debate about the actual topic .

If you think I'm wrong about anything , then , by all means , take me to task about it . I'm game .


And , don't worry , as Storm can take care of himself .
He's wiser than I , as I've been involved in this debate for longer .

[Nitrodaze]

I agree with you, Bagwan, in that if the guy writing the check (sort of) says that there is a problem, then there is a problem... within the team, at least. But I think it's more likely that Mercedes and Wolff are playing the long game here, looking ahead to 2017 and beyond, when the gap to Ferrari, and maybe Red Bull and others, will have probably closed. Both Hamilton and Rosberg scored enough points individually this year that even with Susie Wolff in the second car, Mercedes would have still captured 3rd place in the Constructors Championship. With this dominant monster of a car, either one of them, paired with a roughly competent second driver, could have probably delivered a Constructors trophy, which is what Mercedes really cares about. But once the gap closes (and it will), the question becomes, what driver lineup can still deliver the big annual trophy at the end of a season? Against a Vettel (or whomever) in a strong car, we know from past history that Hamilton can go wheel to wheel. We don't know that about Rosberg. We only know that on occasion he can deliver the goods. So despite his season ending form, if I'm looking at the long game, and also knowing the Nico's contract is up at the end of next season, I don't think that I'd be too confident, if I were Nico.

Hamilton's deal runs through the end of 2018, if I'm not mistaken. And while they could play with whether or not Lewis is on track in a silver car, Mercedes will still be writing him a $50 million (or whatever) check every year. IMO, they could just as easily find another, more obedient second driver to pair with Hamilton... unless Nico learns to sing "Don't Worry, Be Happy". My guess is, as Nico starts negotiating his new post-2016 contract in a few months, there will be terms in his new deal which will "encourage" him to sing along to that old Bobby McFerrin album. However it pans out, I think Mercedes is going to have to find a way to quieten things down between these two before the heated battle of 2017 and beyond begins.

The interesting thing about Toto Wolffs comments though, is he says he would change either of his drivers if their actions is damaging to the team. The thing that l am trying to fathom is what sort of actions that may have transpired this year by either driver, may be construed as damaging to the Mercedes team? Of course we don't know what happens behind the scenes in the garage. On track, l wonder if questioning the pitwall decision is perceived as damaging or what is said at driver press post race interviews.

It just smacks of overreaction to me and a clear frustration with managing an equal status driver lineup. This year has on occasion looked like Merc were fostering someone else's unruly children and have had enough. Abu Dhabi was pretty ugly. The pitwall were quite heavy handed with Hamilton. The business with engine level seemed like Hamilton and his pitwall engineers were not on the same page. One can deduce from Monaco 2014 that Hamilton has some level of doubt of his pitwall engineers. The seemingly fractured relationship seem to have reached a point where it has spilled over into the public domain. This maybe what Wolff is uncomfortable with.

So if we say Toto has a situation where their star driver is losing or has lost faith in his engineers, how does he deal with that situation? Does he fire his star driver? or does he change his star driver's engineers to ensure he gets the best performance from him? I think Toto's comments reveals that Mercedes have a bigger internal problem besides the rivalry between Hamilton and Rosberg. It also reveals the Hamilton's drop of performance since Singapore is more than just changes to the car. It hints at operational issues on the Hamilton side of that garage that may underline the dramatic loss of form witnessed in Hamilton.

If this is the case, we could speculate that Mercedes' view on approach to the season has moved from that of Hamilton, there may be a misalignment that could result in Hamilton being dropped from the team. This of course would depend largely on what the Mercedes aspiration is. We can assume that they would still want to win both championships in Hamilton's absence if they decide to go in this direction. And they would need to retain Rosberg for his experience within the team and how close he was able to get to Hamilton. And they are hoping that Ferrari turn up with a car that is still less competitive to the Mercedes in 2016. And Rosberg can keep it together for the entire season without mistakes to secure both championships by the end of the 2016 season. This, l think would be an unneccessary risk, and l am not implying that Rosberg is unable to win a driver championship with the Mercedes. But objectively, a proven driver would be the way to go and parity status aside. l think it is time for Mercedes to wake up to the fact that, they cannot have parity status between a triple world champion and a driver yet to win a driver title, it is simply ridiculous. They need to win two more championships to match Redbull at least for the Mercedes return to F1 to achieve a status of a great modern day F1 team.

As far as dropping Rosberg is concerned, l don't see the point. They have a dream driver lineup. They need a driver that can deliver if the other driver is not. Having a driver that can push Hamilton, beat him on occasions or be within a tenth of Hamilton is where Rosberg is indispensible. A change of one of their driver lineup would mean having someone who would be learning the Mercedes in their first yeas hence would most likely be about half a second down from Hamilton or Rosberg, which would put Vettel closer to the hunt for the title championship. This is a very risky proposition. My guess is they would not change a winning formular, but tweak it by keeping both their drivers but change their internal composition. I agree with you that equal status may be thrown out as it is not working and distracting for the team. I also agree that a triple world champion is not going to be made a number 2 driver within Mercedes. Which begs the question, how is Rosberg going to react to a number 2 status?

[Nitrodaze]

You know , Nitro , the world needs guys in black hats as well as ones in white ones .

Hamilton's bad boy rapper image fits perfectly with the series right now , and the disruption within the team has been what has really made it interesting this season .
Without the tension between Nico and Lewis , it could have been a much bigger yawn .

Sure , I've been on Nico's side in most of the debates this season , but I think I've been reasonably consistent in my assessments of the clashes .

I try not to get too bent out of shape when folks brand me on here .
But , I'd rather they debate about the actual topic .

If you think I'm wrong about anything , then , by all means , take me to task about it . I'm game .


And , don't worry , as Storm can take care of himself .
He's wiser than I , as I've been involved in this debate for longer .

Now you know how it feels when you brand other people without looking at their posts properly.

[Bagwan]

Now you know how it feels when you brand other people without looking at their posts properly.

Ew , that must have stung then .
Sorry .

See , though , with your last post to Jag there , it shows that you do understand my point , and very well , I might add .
Which , makes your toss-in about me to Storm a little rich .

Just like the deep dark Knight , who admitted not reading the rest of the post because of a single statement at the start , you took offense at "super-fan", when perhaps you should have defended why I called you that , which was because you suggested he may not have been trying .

As it turns out , he was trying , and really hard , because none of them likes being the first loser .
And that goes double for Lewis .
Lewis fans know this , and that's why we like him .


The hard core British Lewis Hamilton fan , in general , can sometimes find his antics tiring and hard to defend , but I can't wait to see what he gets up to next .
The drama is great to watch , but I can't imagine trying to manage him in the team .

[Jag_Warrior]

I just read that Wolff reiterated his comment (threat?) about looking closely at his driver pairing going forward, if the relationship between Hamilton and Rosberg causes problems within the team. Because he's been very careful not to call out either driver individually, it's making me think that he's just launching a shot across the bow of both drivers. As for one driver being harder to manage than the other, we don't know what the references to "behind closed doors" is about. Other than Rosberg's hat toss and the ensuing Paddy Lowe death-stare and Hamilton's pouting, we aren't privy to what Wolff is really talking about.

But I can't see that Hamilton (or Rosberg) is any harder to manage than Alonso or Vettel. In fact, I'd say that he's probably easier to manage than Alonso. And young Verstappen appears to have many of the same defiant, cut-throat traits. As I've said before, other than Hill, Hakkinen and Button, I can't think of a sweet & easy going WDC over the past 25 years. Senna, Prost, Mansell, Schumacher, Villeneuve, Alonso, Hamilton and Vettel have all been giant pains in the @$$ for their teams at one time or another. I understand that Wolff wants to keep a lid on the boiling pot. But IMO, it just comes with the territory, unless you bring in a doormat second driver to be paired with your designated #1.

Maybe Toto will deliver the same talking points to both drivers in private conversations, thereby getting his message across and calming one or both down a bit. But my guess is, he's not going to really spell out which one (or both?) could be in danger going forward. We only know who has a current, longer term, big money contract (with more race wins and now three World Driving titles) and who doesn't. Lewis will be 33 or 34 by the time his contract is up. And by then, I'll be very surprised if the Mercedes is anywhere near as dominant as it is now. He might leave on his own for greener pastures. And unless Rosberg pulls a WDC title out of the hat over the next year or two, I'd say that Hamilton will find a lot more doors open to him than a 33 year old, titleless Rosberg. So if I woke up in late February 2016 and my name was Nico, I'd just do my best and not rock the boat too much throughout the season. Otherwise, when I woke up in late February of 2017, I might be reporting to Monisha Kaltenborn... asking her why my paycheck is late AGAIN!

[driveace]

Where does Nico go from here ,was the question ?
Well the naughty step with the red peaked hat on would be o k by me .But for them turning down Lewis,s car and Lewis not being bothered once he had the title ,Nico would be throwing the toys out of the pram or hats again .Grow up Nico ,look at Vettel and see what a true German driver presents himself ,usually always smiling ,even though he is not in the dominant car

[Stan Reid]

If Mercedes is micro detuning a driver's car to fix the race results, whether it's Hamilton's (late season) or Rosberg's (early season) then they should be banned from F1 for the next 20 years - polygraph tests are in order here.