Is Redbull the architect of its engine problems?

[Nitrodaze]

Could Redbull have managed their problems with Renault better? As it stands at the moment they have burned bridges with Renault without a backup plan or alternative solution. They had not secured an alternative supplier for 2016 before they let their relationship with Renault deteriorate to the point of very possibly no return. This is the puzzling aspect of the Redbull situation.

The question l keep having everytime l think about the Redbull situation is, what really was their plan to secure a new supplier for 2016? From the looks of it, there did not seem to be any, particularly since they seem to have approached other suppliers in what appears to be too late into Mercedes and Ferrari's programme for 2016 season. Mercedes will not supply them with any of their engines and Ferrari has been more generous than Mercedes to offer them their 2015 engine. Which do not meet Redbull's requirement of parity engine. So where does that leave Redbull?

The other question is, will the Ferrari 2015 engine be better than the Renault 2016 engine? This is particularly relevant when you think that the FIA may relax their regulation to give Renault and Honda a chance to catch up to Mercedes and Ferrari. Threatening to quit F1 has not got them a Mercedes engine nor a 2016 Ferrari engine. The Volkswagen entry to F1 is looking somewhat in doubt judging by their current emissions problems. Hence 2017 may well be another problem year for Redbull.

Adrian Newey was quoted at saying Redbull is being pushed out of F1 because their competitors fear Redbull. But is that really the case? Why should Mercedes or Ferrari hand away competitive advantages to its competitor Redbull? Why do Redbull think all it has to do is demand an engine and Mercedes or Ferrari will just comply and handover a 2016 spec engine? Or threaten to leave the sport and Bernie would pressure Mercedes or Ferrari to supply a 2016 spec engine to Redbull.

Could one say that Redbull may leave the sport because they have been unable to cut deals successfully due to their lack of a soft touch approach to securing an engine. From the faraway couch of the spectator, the perspective seem that Redbull have forgotten how to do deals because they have been too long at the top of the game. They may have forgotten that getting a works engine supply is not a privilege but a partnership earned. They have forgotten that they are a customer team like every other who has won four or more constructor world championships. Like Mclaren or Williams.

While it is very obvious that Renault has failed to deliver a competitive engine over the last two years, one would have expected a little more restraint and control in how they go about severing the partnership. With some respect for the manufacturer that effectively secured them four consecutive double world championships. It would have been more appealing if the severance of the relationship was on amicable terms which would accorded Renault appreciation for those titles won and would have left the door open for a future partnership. Maybe Redbull is pushing Redbull out of the series. What do you think?

You know who your friends really are when the going is tough.

[Rollo]

Could Redbull have managed their problems with Renault better? As it stands at the moment they have burn bridges with Renault without a backup plan or alternative solution. They had not secured an alternative supplier for 2016 before they let their relationship with Renault to deteriorate to the point of very possibly no return. This is the puzzling aspect of the Redbull situation.

Mercedes don't want to supply Red Bull with an A-spec engine because they see Red Bull as a threat to their own title chances.
Ferrari don't want to supply Red Bull with an A-spec engine because they see Red Bull as a threat to their own title chances.
Renault don't really want to supply Red Bull with an A-spec engine because they see Red Bull as a threat to their own title chances if they happen to buy the Maldonado black team.

Red Bull have tasted victory and as in days of yore, as with Williams being dumped by Honda in 1988, Williams being dumped by Honda in 1988, or McLaren dumped by Honda in 1993, or even Ross Brawn's outfit being dumped (thankfully) by Honda in 2009.
Red Bull are just particularly vocal about Renault's lack of interest.

Could they have managed this better? If I was the Grand Poohbah of Red Bull, I would have gone to Opel or even Fiat to secure engines. Maybe Red Bull is pushing Red Bull out of the series - who knows? F1 ain't cheap and not to have that expense certainly would improve profitability.

[anfield5]

I agree with what Rollo has put forward, and may I add. Red Bull is a PR nightmare for engine suppliers with their constant negativity aimed at the engine supplier. They have been really vitriolic with Renault, forgetting that they won 8 titles in 4 years because Renault was so strong. No multi national company wants to have a nightmare like Red Bull constantly criticising them and their products, it is bad for business as members of the general public will take what they say as the gospel, and sales will suffer.

So as well as the fear thing i.e RBR beating the factory team, there is the problem of negative publicity as well

[zako85]

I agree with what Rollo has put forward, and may I add. Red Bull is a PR nightmare for engine suppliers with their constant negativity aimed at the engine supplier. They have been really vitriolic with Renault, forgetting that they won 8 titles in 4 years because Renault was so strong.

There was very little engine development between 2010 and 2013. Much of V8 engine development was frozen, and all manufacturer's V8 engines were more similar in terms of power output. So most of tech competition was actually in the realm of chassis design and aero, and RedBull was superb at that game. Renault got lucky with RBR, because with very little R&D spent on the engines of that generation, they got so many titles.

Anyways.. the way I see it, Red Bull is drama queen of the sport right now. I don't know what RBR was counting on when they were burning bridges with Renault, that Ferrari or Mercedes will supply them a works engine? Please.

[Rollo]

Anyways.. the way I see it, Red Bull is drama queen of the sport right now. I don't know what RBR was counting on when they were burning bridges with Renault, that Ferrari or Mercedes will supply them a works engine? Please.

Renault have form with this though. Renault screwed around royally with both Frank Williams and the Benetton Family to such a degree that Williams ended up doing a deal with BMW and the Benetton Family left the sport altogether.
This is the reason why we had Mechacrome, Playlife and Supertec in F1 for a while.

I think that Red Bull have a great deal to complain about and given Renault's track record, they should. Renault are as corporately as bad as Ford.

[Mia 01]

Nothing to complain about, Four WDC and WCC. They will get Honda lump now or be forced to pray for mercy on their knees on the Renualt board.

[The Black Knight]

There was very little engine development between 2010 and 2013. Much of V8 engine development was frozen, and all manufacturer's V8 engines were more similar in terms of power output. So most of tech competition was actually in the realm of chassis design and aero, and RedBull was superb at that game. Renault got lucky with RBR, because with very little R&D spent on the engines of that generation, they got so many titles.

Anyways.. the way I see it, Red Bull is drama queen of the sport right now. I don't know what RBR was counting on when they were burning bridges with Renault, that Ferrari or Mercedes will supply them a works engine? Please.

They didn't get lucky at all. From 2012 to 2013 the Renault Engine wasn't really down on power. The reason for this is because Renault kept bringing software updates for their Engine which in turn also contributed to closing the gap to the front runners. I was as surprised as any to see them up in the speed traps in 2012 and 2013, not all the time, but they were quite frequently so they contributed quite a lot to those world titles as RBR and, to be frank, got very little of the credit for it.

I'm surprised to see people being so down on Renault in this thread. The main issue with the RBR/Renault relationship is that they didn't integrate each others teams enough to allow for success. I personally don't see why either Ferrari or Mercedes should supply RBR with their latest spec engine.

RBR have oen of the biggest budgets, if not the biggest budget, on the grid. Mercedes and Ferrari pump a considerable amount of their budget into Engine development. Why should they then provide RBR with an Engine for €12m so RBR can then pump that extra volume of their budget into chassis development and beating them? It doesn't make sense and I can't see how RBR could have ever thought that either team would supply them with latest specification engines.

They have further shot themselves in the foot by publicly lambasting engine supplier. So if Mercedes or Ferrari produce an elephant or have reliability problems, are RBR then going to do as they have done with Renault, publicly humiliate them and then try to move to the then best engine on the grid?

The other issue is I think RBR overvalued their importance to F1. Sure they have contributed a lot to the sport but no team is bigger than the sport. Every team on the grid Mercedes, Ferrari, McLaren, Williams etc has come across hard times. That is part of being in sport, not just F1, and they can't possibly expect to be involved with F1 without going through a tough period, it just comes with the territory.

The simple fact is they have 100% completely brought this upon themselves through their own arrogance and petulance. RBR could have worked hard with Renault to get back to the front within the next year or two but instead they threw the toys out of the pram to get the easy way out. Well, there's no room for people that want the easy way out in F1. They deserve nothing other than to be given the finger to send them on their way.

[AndyL]

I blame Red Bull almost 100%.

Renault made a business decision to spend less money on their F1 engine programme than Mercedes. Red Bull don't like that, but it wasn't Red Bull's money. It was Renault's decision to make.

Red Bull's decisions, on the other hand, just look petulant and stupid. Someone elsewhere described their situation thus: they've jumped out of a plane and are now negotiating to buy a parachute on the way down. Unsurprisingly, the negotiations are not going in their favour.

Their criticism of Renault is nothing new. Even in the V8 era when they were winning, Horner regularly made negative comments about the engines. If you were an engine manufacturer, how keen would you be to supply a team that takes all the credit when they win and blames you when they lose?

[Duncan]

I blame Red Bull almost 100%.

Renault made a business decision to spend less money on their F1 engine programme than Mercedes. Red Bull don't like that, but it wasn't Red Bull's money. It was Renault's decision to make.

Red Bull's decisions, on the other hand, just look petulant and stupid. Someone elsewhere described their situation thus: they've jumped out of a plane and are now negotiating to buy a parachute on the way down. Unsurprisingly, the negotiations are not going in their favour.

Their criticism of Renault is nothing new. Even in the V8 era when they were winning, Horner regularly made negative comments about the engines. If you were an engine manufacturer, how keen would you be to supply a team that takes all the credit when they win and blames you when they lose?

My thoughts exactly. Why would anybody want to supply RBR with engines? Manufacturers are in the sport for brand promotion for the most part, and Christian Horner is the opposite of the kind of brand spokesperson you want...

[Rollo]

My thoughts exactly. Why would anybody want to supply RBR with engines? Manufacturers are in the sport for brand promotion for the most part, and Christian Horner is the opposite of the kind of brand spokesperson you want...

When it works though, that promotion is milked for all it's worth:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deNqB4nNwPw
Renault were taking out double page spreads in the broadsheets out here in the colonies, with Red Bull tie-ins.

[Rollo]

My thoughts exactly. Why would anybody want to supply RBR with engines? Manufacturers are in the sport for brand promotion for the most part, and Christian Horner is the opposite of the kind of brand spokesperson you want...

When it works though, that promotion is milked for all it's worth:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deNqB4nNwPw
Renault were taking out double page spreads in the broadsheets out here in the colonies, with Red Bull tie-ins.

Red Bull certainly have not rolled themselves in sweetness but Renault aren't exactly an innocent fluffy bunny caught in the headlights either.

[jens]

We should not mix up different things.

Red Bull is not the architect of Renault's engine problems. Didn't Red Bull once send its software specialists to Viry (Renault engine dept) to help to solve some issues, because they could not? Red Bull can't be responsible for the lack of Renault's effort. Also RBR is not responsible for new engine rules, which has created a big gulf between teams.

I wrote in another thread that I think the pragmatic Mateschitz deep down knows Red Bull is doomed in the new regs era. That's why they are desperately looking around... They are not and can't be Merc/Ferrari works teams and Renault isn't good enough...

---

However, where does Red Bull's part or should I say responsibility come in. It comes in dealing with their situation or fate. In a situation, where they are sort of 'doomed' to be outsiders in current formula, they lack vision and level-headidness to deal with the situation. Continue in midfield or pull out altogether? To be honest, I think they should have perhaps already taken a firm decision on how to approach the new era. Because messing around with manufacturers and burning bridges doesn't have any point or purpose. So a decision should have been taken - "okay, the situation with Renault is bad, but we have no other option and go through it." Or "okay, we can be a customer of Merc/Ferrari, and not win, but that's the best we can do." Or "we hope Honda comes good one day."

What could Mateschitz also have done? Perhaps he could have tried to persuade Renault's boss Carlos Ghosn to invest more into F1. I am unsure, which 'incentives' Mateschitz could have used. Because Ghosn is unlikely to be interested in investing a lot into F1 "just because". Perhaps Mateschitz could have proposed a wide-range co-operation between Red Bull and Renault, which includes also car industry in general, so that investment into F1 comes into play? Of course I don't know what they have discussed behind the closed doors, just guessing out loud now.

[jens]

Actually if anyone is bothered to read, wanted to continue...:D

Of course, there is one more possible firm decision for RBR - "we don't like the new era F1, and we pull out."

Looking at wider context... When we had the V8 engines, I do remember Mercedes threatening to pull out, if they do not bring in new hybrid engines. In the end Mercedes got what they want. What is the current problematic situation of F1? With the help of politicking manufacturers have achieved a heavily dominant position in F1.

What is Red Bull trying to counter? They are also threatening to pull out - they do not like the domination of manufacturers, which was established with latest rule changes. And it is not the matter of whether you like "fizzy drinks" or whether they are a "real racing company". It is about the effort you put in. Try telling all those hundreds of people working lengthy hours for Red Bull and Toro Rosso at various jobs, that they are not a "real team".

The thing with Red Bull is that their PR is not very refined and they play with very open cards. And that's why people easily misunderstand them, or even hate or dislike. Now nobody wants to remember, how manufacturers threatened to pull out if they do not get the "advantage" of new engine regs, but behind the closed doors we had such a politicking as well.

Red Bull/Mateschitz wants to 'protect' the position of non-manufacturer big F1 contributors. People argue in this thread that it is completely right that Merc/Ferrari can do what they want (we don't give them engines if we don't like, whatever), and teams like Red Bull can't do anything and have no chance to be competitive. This is what politicking for the new regulations has done - manufacturers have all the power. I'd say it is out of balance! As company directors people like Mateschitz and Horner must fight for the rights of their team and all the people in there as well.

Also if Red Bull pulls out, and I almost hope they'd do it - it would force F1 for a re-think, how to value other teams as well in addition to just catering for Mercedes/Ferrari. Because behind them it is a very shaky ground right now.

---

One more thought. I don't know, what has been discussed behind the doors. But probably Mateschitz understood Ghosn is not prepared to invest a lot into F1, and Red Bull put all their eggs on potential VW basket, believing they would invest heavily into F1 and would become a long-term partner. But with VW getting wiped out, it has destroyed the last bastion of Red Bull's F1 strategy, and they do not know, what to do or which direction to go. Probably they will take some kind of a firm decision soon, but it will be a heavy compromise on their ideals.

[Nitrodaze]

After four consecutive world championships, it is not unexpected for suppliers to be burnt out as did Renault. Four consecutive world champions do not happen by luck and it takes a monstrously huge amount of investment, research and development. It happened to Ferrari at the end of the Schumacher era and was expected to happen to Renault from 2013 onwards. Renault were quite open about it too.
I suppose Redbull probably hoped the dominance of the Renault engine can be carried forward to the hybrid era with careful upgrade to the winning formular.

We can blame the regulations, but it is still up to Redbull to maneuver correctly to ensure they remain at the top of the game. What we are seeing so far has looked like a long headlight moment. I hope they find a way to stay in the sport as Redbull has become a very important part of F1's recent history. You can't win all the time, maybe it is time to regroup for the next main regulation change at 2017.

[zako85]

I still chuckle when I hear about the "dominance" of Renault engine in the 2010-2013 seasons. Vettel won four titles in that time, yet back then I actually never heard of anyone talking of the dominance of the Renault engine. The only non-Red Bull team that did sorta well with a Renault engine was Lotus in 2012-2013. The 2012 Williams seemed like a nice car too, but its chances were ruined by mediocre drivers. Most of what Red Bull achieved was thanks to their aero dynamics brilliance. Renault may have delivered them some clever engine mapping or telemetry, but all that would have been useless without the RBR chassis.

[Nitrodaze]

I still chuckle when I hear about the "dominance" of Renault engine in the 2010-2013 seasons. Vettel won four titles in that time, yet back then I actually never heard of anyone talking of the dominance of the Renault engine. The only non-Red Bull team that did sorta well with a Renault engine was Lotus in 2012-2013. The 2012 Williams seemed like a nice car too, but its chances were ruined by mediocre drivers. Most of what Red Bull achieved was thanks to their aero dynamics brilliance. Renault may have delivered them some clever engine mapping or telemetry, but all that would have been useless without the RBR chassis.

I suppose, Redbull will wipe the floor with Mercedes when they bolt on their 2015 Ferrari engine. :-)

[Duncan]

When it works though, that promotion is milked for all it's worth:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deNqB4nNwPw
Renault were taking out double page spreads in the broadsheets out here in the colonies, with Red Bull tie-ins.

Well, exactly. That's why Renault (and every other engine manufacturer) is there; they want to enhance their brand, and stuff like this is the sort of output they're looking for. The last thing they want is somebody like Christian Horner trash talking their brand at every opportunity. This makes it a very tough sell for every manufacturer to provide RBR with engines.

[jens]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/121468

According to latest rumour Red Bull could become Honda's B team, because there may not be any other option. I know I am sort of sympathetic about Red Bull, but I can't help but laugh.:laugh: It would also throw all performance predictions we have had so far out of the window, and push RBR further down the field.

However, McLaren should (rightfully) fear if this were to happen. Unlike with Mercedes or Ferrari, Honda is not forever tied with their main team to deny RBR. And if Red Bull can prove they can make a better chassis than McLaren, it would be a justified decision for them to switch allegiances.

[Nitrodaze]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/121468

According to latest rumour Red Bull could become Honda's B team, because there may not be any other option. I know I am sort of sympathetic about Red Bull, but I can't help but laugh.:laugh: It would also throw all performance predictions we have had so far out of the window, and push RBR further down the field.

However, McLaren should (rightfully) fear if this were to happen. Unlike with Mercedes or Ferrari, Honda is not forever tied with their main team to deny RBR. And if Red Bull can prove they can make a better chassis than McLaren, it would be a justified decision for them to switch allegiances.

The Honda combustion engine is already a few BHP up on the Renault but with the poor hybrid part of the Honda engine they also a few BHP down on the Renault. Honda's 2016 engine is very likely going to make big strides in the Hybrid department, if coupled with some additional inprovement in horse power in the combustion engine as well, then Honda is an interesting proposition for Redbull.

Should Mclaren be worried, l don't think they should for a short term arrangement. Redbull taking the Honda engine is good for both Honda and Mclaren as Honda may get a concession that would allow them more latitude to make far reaching changes to the engine. The real question though is, is Honda setup for manufacturing engines for two customers? Taking on Redbull at this late stage may destabilize their preparation for 2016 and put their Mclaren project at risk.
Then there is the question of investment commitment from RBR and Honda for the additional commitment. If the arrangement puts additional funding pressure on Honda, chances are this is not going to happen, unless of course Mclaren-Honda off load Alonso for a cheaper driver like Magnussen. And that is not going to be cheap.

Looking at how RBR handled their relationship with Renault, you have to ask; is a RBR-Honda relationship going to work, taking into account the Japanese cultural sensitivity to pride and honor. RBR would need to have someone at the helm with experience of japanese working relationship. I have a strong feeling the current personels are going to make a hash of it in a very short time.

While Honda taking on RBR is purely for strategic reasons, l am sure they would not hesitate to dump RBR mid season if RBR behave in anyway insulting or injurious to the Honda brand. There isn't that bonding developed from past relationship as Mclaren has with Honda. Even so, the Mclaren-Honda relationship was stretched to testing points on occasion. I am sure most would remember the Alonso rant about GP2 engine at Suzuka. While that was driver misbehavior, l am sure at team level, such public outburst would have deteriorated into a swift separation.

While it would be great for Honda, Mclaren and Redbull for such a deal to take place, it could be risky for Mclaren if RBR has difficulty working to Honda's particular work ethics and culture, That may put Mclaren's programme at risk due to the distraction of Honda and stress generated. Hence some may say it is risky for Mclaren, but they may also benefit from it in the long run.

Since it is unlikely the Honda engine is suddenly going to win the f1 championship in 2016, Mclaren has nothing to lose sharing Honda with RBR for at most one season.

The idea of Honda dumping Mclaren for Redbull is interesting. Would a RBR-Honda combination be more likely to win a CWC in a shorter period than with Mclaren. It comes down to chassis excelence and supremacy. With Adrian Newey not being full time in charge of RBR aerodynamic, it is not so clear cut that RBR would develop better chassis than Mclaren. This is evident at the early part of the season when the Toro Rosso had a better chassis and performed better than the senior team. Hence it may be foolhardy for Honda to jump ship to a Neweyless RBR.

[CNR]

There was very little engine development between 2010 and 2013. Much of V8 engine development was frozen, and all manufacturer's V8 engines were more similar in terms of power output. So most of tech competition was actually in the realm of chassis design and aero, and RedBull was superb at that game. Renault got lucky with RBR, because with very little R&D spent on the engines of that generation, they got so many titles.

Anyways.. the way I see it, Red Bull is drama queen of the sport right now. I don't know what RBR was counting on when they were burning bridges with Renault, that Ferrari or Mercedes will supply them a works engine? Please.
it was about the time they where linked to vw
http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/did-the-vw-diesel-scandal-kill-an-f1-deal-with-red-bull/
"The company was reportedly negotiating a deal to supply engines to former champion Red Bull Racing, but that deal has likely been derailed by the emissions scandal,

Read more: http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/did-the-vw-diesel-scandal-kill-an-f1-deal-with-red-bull/#ixzz3pYBB7Bsb
Follow us: @digitaltrends on Twitter | digitaltrendsftw on Facebook
"

[CNR]

Taking on Redbull at this late stage may destabilize their preparation for 2016 and put their Mclaren project at risk.

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2015/10/25/mclaren-boss-blocking-honda-deal-red-bull-says-ecclestone
"Ecclestone said Honda agreed years ago with the governing International Automobile Federation (FIA) and himself that they would be willing to supply two teams in their second year back in Formula One and three in the third."

[driveace]

Red Bull assumed they had a Mercedes engine for next year SO that was why they were rubbishing off Renault BUT Matachitz (or whatever his name is) made an enquiry about Merc power ,but then never followed it up So they actually burnt their bridges too early

[CNR]

British firm, Ilmor has been used by Red Bull to try and help Renault find a still-elusive breakthrough in this latest era.
http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/10045411/a
they currently manufacturer a similar 2.2-litre unit in IndyCar

[CNR]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/121529
Red Bull thought it had Mercedes F1 engine deal in July
Bernie Ecclestone has revealed Red Bull served notice on Renault in the belief it had a Formula 1 engine supply deal with Mercedes following a meeting in July.

Red Bull is currently in limbo with regard a power unit supply for 2016 as its partnership with Renault is on the brink of divorce, while Mercedes, Ferrari and Honda all seemingly do not want to step into the breach.

[Rollo]

Is there enough nous at Red Bull to build their own engines like Zakspeed did in Formula One? They can't very well do worse that Zakspeed can they?

[jens]

Is there enough nous at Red Bull to build their own engines like Zakspeed did in Formula One? They can't very well do worse that Zakspeed can they?

Then they would need to buy Cosworth... starting F1 engine factory from scratch? Well, I don't think so. Even for someone like Red Bull.:p:

Yeah, back in the "Zakspeed days" and also a bit later we had quite a few private F1 engine makers, like Hart or Judd. But back then engines were less complicated and less expensive. Nowadays such players have no chance to stay in the business.

[jens]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/121620

Honda 'very keen' to supply Red Bull with engines, but perhaps due to McLaren blocking they will get the 2015 Honda engines next year.:laugh:

I can already see Mateschitz thinking: "I really should have pulled my teams out of F1. Wait, is it already too late to do it?"

[The Black Knight]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/121620

Honda 'very keen' to supply Red Bull with engines, but perhaps due to McLaren blocking they will get the 2015 Honda engines next year.:laugh:

I can already see Mateschitz thinking: "I really should have pulled my teams out of F1. Wait, is it already too late to do it?"

The 2015 Honda engine? LOL! Oh that would be fitting justice alright, very fitting indeed. That really would give them cause to be aggrieved. Even Manor would be ahead of them :laugh:

I have to agree with Boullier, this is a situation regarding Red Bull created only by Red Bull. They are the architects of their own problem and McLaren is not a charity organization. McLaren are the ones that have put in all the hard work trying to get Honda back into the sport and I don't see why a major rival should benefit from it. Ron Dennis is completely 100% right to use his veto against RBR having their engines. RBR didn't really think this whole situation through before they publicly humiliated their long term partners Renault :laugh:

Since Dennis has a veto over Honda supplying RBR then, unless Honda ignore the veto, which I'd imagine would lead to a big court case between the two companies and complete break down of relationships, then there's not much more RBR can do other than squirm their way back to Renault - that's if Renault will have them now.

[Rollo]

Since Dennis has a veto over Honda supplying RBR then, unless Honda ignore the veto, which I'd imagine would lead to a big court case between the two companies...

Mugen on the other hand... Honda could supply Mugen who could then supply Red Bull.

[The Black Knight]

Mugen on the other hand... Honda could supply Mugen who could then supply Red Bull.

Yes, but unless it is the 2015 Honda engine it is unlikely that they will get a Mugen Honda engine as Denis would just veto that as well.

[veeten]

Then again, if Honda is forced to fulfill the contract with FIA/FOM , Red Bull could make it even harder by providing a better chassis for their powertrain.

This could cause some severe consternation for Ron, as they wouldn't have Honda to blame for their predicament, and reveal what a total DOG the chassis is.

Reasons as to why, and food for thought... ;)

[Duncan]

Mugen on the other hand... Honda could supply Mugen who could then supply Red Bull.

If that's possible within the terms of the contract, McLaren need a new lawyer...

It will be interesting to see what happens here, but it would be pretty shocking if RB were able to get the same spec Honda engine as McLaren. If it's 2015 spec, on the other hand, that might not be so bad for everybody not called Red Bull.

[Somebody]

A certain site with a URL similar to this one but without the "forums" in it is claiming that Renault are prepared to supply engines to Red Bull, provided they don't get to use the Renault name.

Looking at the Renault-Nissan Alliance Wikipedia page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault-Nissan) for the brands they control... what price Red Bull-Lada next year?

[Nitrodaze]

So Horner goes to Autosport magazine and says Honda is keen to supply them with engine but Ron Dennis is blocking the way. A perfect demonstration of tact and an excellent way of generating good will it would seem. not! I really am not sure what that strategy is, tell the world and somehow put pressure on bad Ron, then Honda would run along and hand them an engine.

I am keen to see how their new tactics would pan out. If anything, it seem like stirring up a rift between Honda and Mclaren. Parhaps, Redbull's engine problem is about to become a Mclaren problem. Going by the Autosport article, it is hard to see how Mclaren and Redbull could work cooperatively to get the most of the Honda package. This could easily tear Honda into two irreconcilable directions. This sort of negative publicity is not the sort of basis upon which cooperation is borne. RBR do not seem to have learnt a lessen from its handling of the Renault affair in the media.

[Rollo]

Then they would need to buy Cosworth... starting F1 engine factory from scratch? Well, I don't think so. Even for someone like Red Bull.:p:

McLaren illustrates precisely why teams like Red Bull and McLaren should develop their own engines from scratch.


McLaren especially should get the McLaren Technology Group to do something for them. When Honda left in '92, McLaren had to scratch around with Ford and then an meh season with Peugeot before they got a gig with M-B. Once M-B left them, they've been dumped in it.
The Artist formerly known as Stewart GP has been meddled with by Ford, dumped by Ford, rabbled around with Ferrari before tying themselves up with Renault.

Fabricating your own engines, would solve all sorts of problems (and create others) for these teams. Since Formula One tech is different from road cars and is bespoke, then that might make real sense - if the staff can do it.

[Nitrodaze]

McLaren illustrates precisely why teams like Red Bull and McLaren should develop their own engines from scratch.


McLaren especially should get the McLaren Technology Group to do something for them. When Honda left in '92, McLaren had to scratch around with Ford and then an meh season with Peugeot before they got a gig with M-B. Once M-B left them, they've been dumped in it.
The Artist formerly known as Stewart GP has been meddled with by Ford, dumped by Ford, rabbled around with Ferrari before tying themselves up with Renault.

Fabricating your own engines, would solve all sorts of problems (and create others) for these teams. Since Formula One tech is different from road cars and is bespoke, then that might make real sense - if the staff can do it.

The cost of R&D of developing a new engine is cost prohibitive. Buying into an existing engine manufacturer is a better option. Even so, there is the added cost of R & D to get the bought engine to Mercedes level of performance. After all that expense, Redbull would have to languish at the back of the grid for a number of seasons in an experiment that may or may not work out.

It is considerably cheaper to buy an engine from a manufacturer than to build your own in this era of F1. Manufactures typically have other commercial benefit from the R&D that goes into developing their F1 engines. If it was easy to get level with the Merc engine, Ferrari would have done it by now. Even the cheap engine idea may not prove successful due to this reason. It may be a 2.2 litre engine, but it would struggle to be as competitve as the hybrid engines which is already as fast as the bigger bore engines of ten years ago on some tracks. Like Mexico, Hamilton was doing 225 mph compared to Berger's fastest speed of 215mph on the straight of the Autodromo Hernandez Rodriquez.

The cheaper engine would be bulkier, thus heavier. It would require more fuel which would increase the weight of the car further. It may have to pit more often or pit longer than the hybrid that would only pit for tyres. They would also increase logistic cost for thr added weight of fuel, refueling rig, fire extinguishers etc that has to be added to the the current freight cost. The fat cheap teams with the cheap engine would not have a chance against the slim, lighter hybrid teams. We would more or less have a 2 tier race which is more divided than we have now.

[Nitrodaze]

Then again, if Honda is forced to fulfill the contract with FIA/FOM , Red Bull could make it even harder by providing a better chassis for their powertrain.

This could cause some severe consternation for Ron, as they wouldn't have Honda to blame for their predicament, and reveal what a total DOG the chassis is.

Reasons as to why, and food for thought... ;)

There is no guarantee that Redbull chassis would be better than the Mclaren chassis. Especially when Newey is not responsible for the aero package anymore. If anything, Redbull may need to make adjustments to fit the Honda engine into their chassis which may push the advantage to Mclaren that has already built a chassis from scratch specifically for the Honda engine.

I can see why Mclaren would push back on Redbull having the Honda engine. Mclaren has put in a year of working with Honda to get that engine where it is so far, a year of embarrassment and test of character and Redbull simply wants to swooping in and take benefit of the work done by Mclaren. The question really is, if they think they could work with Honda to further develop the Honda engine, why are they not doing the same with Renault. Why would working with Honda and their slower engine be any different to working with Renault. The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence l suppose.

[rjbetty]

I'm not one for schadenfreude much, but I find it amazing that RBR are now so desperate they are reduced to clambering around trying to get their hands on a Honda PU. :D

[jens]

Well, I feel sorry for all the people in the factory, who have the ability to design a very good chassis. And I feel sorry for the talented young drivers, who can give headaches to the established elite.

In such desperate lack of competition in F1 we need any competitive team we can. But it looks like competition is going to get even worse than it has been. Big manufacturers have developed a monopoly in terms of both performance and political power.

However, the power struggle between McLaren and Red Bull will be fascinating to watch. You can be sure Red Bull won't just let it stay so that McLaren remains Honda's A priority team!

[Big Ben]

"The situation is clear, we won't get any of the existing powertrains because all teams fear that we would be faster than their own works outfits.As we know you can't buy courage or sporting spirit."-Mateshits (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/121633)

Now there's going to be a bidding war to give them engines because he called them wusses :laugh:.
They haven't really learnt anything from what's happening to them.

[Nitrodaze]

"The situation is clear, we won't get any of the existing powertrains because all teams fear that we would be faster than their own works outfits.As we know you can't buy courage or sporting spirit."-Mateshits (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/121633)

Now there's going to be a bidding war to give them engines because he called them wusses :laugh:.
They haven't really learnt anything from what's happening to them.

I think your quote is a good example why Redbull is struggling to find an engine. I doubt Redbull being feared is the reason that they are not getting an engine. They just rub everyone off the wrong way with their media antics. I cannot see how much good will such statement is likely to generate within the F1 community. If anything, they are showing why anyone should think twice about getting involved with them. They are kind of looking like krytonite to brand image of potential suppliers with their tactless comments to the media.

Toto Woolf did say that Mercedes did considered giving Redbull an engine supply but Redbull did not take up the offer for whatever reason, hence offered the opportunity to Manor. The truth is, they had great offers to keep them going in 2016, while they try to find a longer term solution but they did not take them. Reading between the lines, they had offers to take 2015 engines of Mercedes and Ferrari but rejected those for a 2016 Honda which would not be as competitive as the 2015 Mercedes engine.

If they think they have such a scary chassis, they should have taken the 2015 Ferrari or Mercedes engine which is faster than their current Renault and would be faster than the 2016 Renault or Honda engines. These 2015 engines may put them ahead of the Williams in 2016 in 3rd place of the constructors championship while they sort out a deal with Volkswagen or some other supplier.

With analysis, it is fair to say Redbull is simply demonstrating how not to do deals in F1. One thing is certain, if you had a wily saged head of someone like Ross Brawn in charge, this sorry state would not have occurred. They would have a Mercedes engine and they would be preparing to harass Ferrari for the 2nd spot or even hope to steal the championship from a Mercedes team that is known to make lots of mistakes.

Redbull need 2016 to regroup and they need a good enough engine for that period. Not necessarily to win the championship but to win enough races to be in the top 3 going into 2017. As it is at the moment, they may not have a Renault engine in 2016, if Renault decides to finalize the termination of contract from their perspective. They are still dancing around because they believe they may have a Renault engine to fall back on if all goes wrong. Or possibly leave the grid which would be their own fault really as they have not been exemplary in their handling of their engine situation.

[AndyL]

"The situation is clear, we won't get any of the existing powertrains because all teams fear that we would be faster than their own works outfits.As we know you can't buy courage or sporting spirit."-Mateshits (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/121633)

Now there's going to be a bidding war to give them engines because he called them wusses :laugh:.
They haven't really learnt anything from what's happening to them.

That is solid gold. If you could buy sporting spirit then Red Bull would have tons of it with their budget, so I guess what Mateschitz said must be true. It's also true that you can't buy Courage... they're Oreca now.

[The Black Knight]

"The situation is clear, we won't get any of the existing powertrains because all teams fear that we would be faster than their own works outfits.As we know you can't buy courage or sporting spirit."-Mateshits (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/121633)

Now there's going to be a bidding war to give them engines because he called them wusses :laugh:.
They haven't really learnt anything from what's happening to them.

Apparently you can't buy common sense coupled with a little bit of decorum either. What a clown!

[Rollo]

That is solid gold. If you could buy sporting spirit then Red Bull would have tons of it with their budget, so I guess what Mateschitz said must be true. It's also true that you can't buy Courage... they're Oreca now.


You can but sporting Spirit... especially if you're Honda

http://www.honda.co.jp/Racing/gallery/1983/01/
http://www.honda.co.jp/Racing/gallery/images/detail/spirit/main_imageL.jpg

[Nitrodaze]

"The situation is clear, we won't get any of the existing powertrains because all teams fear that we would be faster than their own works outfits.As we know you can't buy courage or sporting spirit."-Mateshits (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/121633)

Now there's going to be a bidding war to give them engines because he called them wusses :laugh:.
They haven't really learnt anything from what's happening to them.

I suppose he means Mercedes and Ferrari did not have courage or sporting spirit when RBR was winning their 4 consecutive championships. Now the shoe is on the other foot.

[Duncan]

I think your quote is a good example why Redbull is struggling to find an engine. I doubt Redbull being feared is the reason that they are not getting an engine. They just rub everyone off the wrong way with their media antics. I cannot see how much good will such statement is likely to generate within the F1 community. If anything, they are showing why anyone should think twice about getting involved with them. They are kind of looking like krytonite to brand image of potential suppliers with their tactless comments to the media.

This. I really don't see how Mateschitz & Horner think they're helping their cause with what they're constantly saying to the media.


With analysis, it is fair to say Redbull is simply demonstrating how not to do deals in F1. One thing is certain, if you had a wily saged head of someone like Ross Brawn in charge, this sorry state would not have occurred. They would have a Mercedes engine and they would be preparing to harass Ferrari for the 2nd spot or even hope to steal the championship from a Mercedes team that is known to make lots of mistakes.

So when Red Bull finally throw in the towel, maybe Ross will be there to buy the team for £1...

"Brawn Again GP" has a nice ring to it. :laugh:

[Nitrodaze]

Is there enough nous at Red Bull to build their own engines like Zakspeed did in Formula One? They can't very well do worse that Zakspeed can they?

Apparently, Redbull do not think your idea is that crazy as they have agreed with Renault to take on future development of the Renault engine with illmor assisting with its future development.

see http://thejudge13.com/2015/11/05/exclusive-red-bull-secure-an-engine-for-2016/

As it goes, RBR would be running the Renault engine in 2016. Now Mercedes and Ferrari have something to think about. All along, RBR appeared to be lost while they were actually negotiating intellectual rights on the ICE module on the Renault engine which they co-developed with Renault. Honda was interested in supplying Redbull, because RBR dangled the Renault ICE design at them. Renault who one would have expected to be very pissed with redbull for the state of affairs in the media was unusually quiet. Now we know why, they needed to secure the rights to the ICE design which RBR has a joint rights to. The media charade was cloak and dagger after all.

That said, it is great RBR would be on the grid for 2016. I would love to see how the 2016 Renault engine developed with illmor's involvement would compare to the competition.

[The Black Knight]

Apparently, Redbull do not think your idea is that crazy as they have agreed with Renault to take on future development of the Renault engine with illmor assisting with its future development.

see http://thejudge13.com/2015/11/05/exclusive-red-bull-secure-an-engine-for-2016/

As it goes, RBR would be running the Renault engine in 2016. Now Mercedes and Ferrari have something to think about. All along, RBR appeared to be lost while they were actually negotiating intellectual rights on the ICE module on the Renault engine which they co-developed with Renault. Honda was interested in supplying Redbull, because RBR dangled the Renault ICE design at them. Renault who one would have expected to be very pissed with redbull for the state of affairs in the media was unusually quiet. Now we know why, they needed to secure the rights to the ICE design which RBR has a joint rights to. The media charade was cloak and dagger after all.

That said, it is great RBR would be on the grid for 2016. I would love to see how the 2016 Renault engine developed with illmor's involvement would compare to the competition.

I think it's a shame that these guys have managed to secure an Engine for 2016, if that report is accurate. They are not good for the public image of F1 and they deserved to be without an Engine for 2016 because of their behavior alone. Anyway, lets wait for official confirmation but I personally hope they crash and burn.

[jens]

I think it's a shame that these guys have managed to secure an Engine for 2016, if that report is accurate. They are not good for the public image of F1 and they deserved to be without an Engine for 2016 because of their behavior alone. Anyway, lets wait for official confirmation but I personally hope they crash and burn.

Yep, it is definitely awesome if there are no competitive teams in F1 and everyone besides Mercedes crashes and burns I guess.

[zako85]

I am really confused about this story because if what I have read is true, then the power unit used in Red Bull no longer is going to be "Renault" branded, but something else. If this is true, then where does that leave Renault who will be left with no prime teams using a Renault-branded power unit? Is Renault going ahead with making Lotus its works team?

[Nitrodaze]

I am really confused about this story because if what I have read is true, then the power unit used in Red Bull no longer is going to be "Renault" branded, but something else. If this is true, then where does that leave Renault who will be left with no prime teams using a Renault-branded power unit? Is Renault going ahead with making Lotus its works team?

Renault engines has alway been branded infiniti, Redbull shall also be branding the engine infiniti l think.

[The Black Knight]

Yep, it is definitely awesome if there are no competitive teams in F1 and everyone besides Mercedes crashes and burns I guess.

The awesome thing would be if those little shit heads in Red Bull got their comeuppance. Their behaviour has been disgraceful and they bring continual negative attention to the sport. In my opinion they should be thrown out of the sport. When a manager criticises a referee in football they get fined or a ban. It should be the same in F1 and RBR have certainly brought enough negative publicity on the sport so as to warrant expulsion. They are the cancer of F1.

I really don't mind who is winning as long as they have earned it. RBR deserved the success they had but now they deserve to be thrown out on their ass.

[Rollo]

I am really confused about this story because if what I have read is true, then the power unit used in Red Bull no longer is going to be "Renault" branded, but something else. If this is true, then where does that leave Renault who will be left with no prime teams using a Renault-branded power unit? Is Renault going ahead with making Lotus its works team?

Renault might still buy Black Maldonado.

Yes, Renault might be left with no prime teams using a Renault-branded power unit depending on what it does.

[Bagwan]

Test rigs at the mysterious building 9 have people thinking that maybe the approaches to Ferrari , Honda and Merc were a distraction , as they have apparently sorted the IP on the PU , and will now diverge into their own , using a Renault block at the start .
Illien's 40 horse head belongs to RBR , and they are also responsible for some of the rest of the electronic stuff , so they've got a head start on Honda , with an "unbranded" year until they take it up themselves .

Renault takes up Lotus , and all is well .

That way , RBR will be putting it all on the line , with nobody to blame for failure but themselves .


If this was the plan all along , then it's a clever one .
They dropped a horsepower guy in to play with a motor that's already integrated into your design , and now own almost all but the block .
And , it doesn't seem anybody , including Renault , saw it coming .



That is , if any of it is true .

[Nitrodaze]

Renault might still buy Black Maldonado.

Yes, Renault might be left with no prime teams using a Renault-branded power unit depending on what it does.

Renault has already said they do not want to supply engines to any other team from 2016 onwards. They are not bothered.

[Rollo]

Renault engines has alway been branded infiniti, Redbull shall also be branding the engine infiniti l think.

Er...

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5f/F1_2011_Test_Jerez_20.jpg

Infiniti only appeared on the cars in 2012 and the engine itself has never been branded Infiniti.

[zako85]

Renault engines has alway been branded infiniti,

No they were not.

[veeten]

Infiniti is the prestige marque of Nissan.

Nissan is the partner with Renault.

Renault designed, built and supplied the engines/hybrid powertrains(in conjunction with Nissan) for RBR, as well as other teams.

[Nitrodaze]

Er...

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5f/F1_2011_Test_Jerez_20.jpg

Infiniti only appeared on the cars in 2012 and the engine itself has never been branded Infiniti.

er
799

800

[Rollo]

er


Good work in finding two pictures where you can't actually see the engine cover. Good work in also proving yourself wrong.
Truly this is a case of the salmon that jumps on the hook for you. A fish gets caught when it opens its big mouth and into your big mouth we could fly a plane.

If you'd been honest, you'd have shown a picture of the side of the car:
http://www.auto123.com/ArtImages/164776/f1-redbull-rb10-vettel-top-inline.jpg

Oh dear. I must be illiterate. That engine cover reads "Ren an Stimpy" doesn't it? What a dog and cat show!





Both of these pictures are of the RB10 which raced in 2014.
RB10 was always stated as Red Bull-Renault, with the engine as "Renault Energy F1-2014 1.6 L". Never has the engine itself has ever been branded Infiniti.

[Mia 01]

Now they can get a Ferrari Engine for next year, a detuned one that is.

[Nitrodaze]

Good work in finding two pictures where you can't actually see the engine cover. Good work in also proving yourself wrong.
Truly this is a case of the salmon that jumps on the hook for you. A fish gets caught when it opens its big mouth and into your big mouth we could fly a plane.

If you'd been honest, you'd have shown a picture of the side of the car:
http://www.auto123.com/ArtImages/164776/f1-redbull-rb10-vettel-top-inline.jpg

Oh dear. I must be illiterate. That engine cover reads "Ren an Stimpy" doesn't it? What a dog and cat show!





Both of these pictures are of the RB10 which raced in 2014.
RB10 was always stated as Red Bull-Renault, with the engine as "Renault Energy F1-2014 1.6 L". Never has the engine itself has ever been branded Infiniti.

Steady buddy, Renault = Infiniti

If you had clicked on the image you would have seen a larger version of the image in a popup. I shall take it that you were having a bad day when you wrote your reply as this is not your normal behaviour.

They have both brands on the Redbull for exposure. I made quite an innocuous observation that Redbull may brand the engine either Renault or Infiniti if they choose. I can't see the basis for name calling in this statement.

[Rollo]

Steady buddy, Renault = Infiniti

Renault ≠ Infiniti

Renault does not equal Infiniti. Renault has never equaled Infiniti.



If you had clicked on the image you would have seen a larger version of the image in a popup.

They have both brands on the Redbull for exposure. I made quite an innocuous observation that Redbull may brand the engine either Renault or Infiniti if they choose. I can't see the basis for name calling in this statement.

Actually, that's not what you said at all. In post #51 you wrote:


Renault engines has alway been branded infiniti, Redbull shall also be branding the engine infiniti l think.

You said "Renault engines has alway (sic) been branded infiniti"; then you posted links to two photographs where the engine covers couldn't be seen. The truth is that Renault engines have never been branded Infiniti. Infiniti has appeared on the cars but never in the capacity of the engine supplier.

Infiniti is the title partner of the team and not the engines:

http://cms.infiniti-redbullracing.com/sites/default/files/press_release_group/press_release/infiniti_to_become_title_partner_of_red_bull_racin g_from_2013.25-11-2012.pdf
The increased agreement will see Infiniti become title partner from 2013, meaning Red Bull Racing’s team name will become Infiniti Red Bull Racing from the start of next season.
- RedBull info statement, 25 Nov 2012

Infiniti is a division part of the Nissan Motor Company which whilst is owned partly by Renault (and own part of Renault), the two are not synonymous.


this is not your normal behaviour.

I live in a terrace house on Pedant Corner, overlooking Persnickety Lane; where the Shriners and the lepers play their ukuleles all day long And anyone on the street will gladly shave your back for a nickel. Wacka wacka doodoo yeah!

[inimitablestoo]

By mathematical definition, I don't think anything can equal Infiniti, merely tend towards it :rolleyes:

I think I'm right in saying nobody's actually rebadged an engine since Sauber had the Petronas deal? Seemed to be a big thing around the turn of the millennium (Prost-Acer, Minardi-Fondmetal/European, Benetton-Playlife) but soon died out.

[AndyL]

It certainly says "Renault" on the cam covers.
http://en.espn.co.uk/f1/motorsport/story/186981.html

[Rollo]

By mathematical definition, I don't think anything can equal Infiniti, merely tend towards it :rolleyes:

I think I'm right in saying nobody's actually rebadged an engine since Sauber had the Petronas deal? Seemed to be a big thing around the turn of the millennium (Prost-Acer, Minardi-Fondmetal/European, Benetton-Playlife) but soon died out.

This is where I don't know enough about the Williams FW28 or FW32.
On neither occasion did the cars actually display that they were running Cosworth engines; I suspect that had to to with Williams paying for them though. Cosworth wasn't really a sponsor.

[truefan72]

well
I think its just about done:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/121722

Back with renault and they will be paying more for them and lose part of the the renault and total sponsorship money in 2016 and all from 2017.
Plus a likely rebranding of the engine (probably to infiniti) although i think it only helps renault to have an additional team with its name on the cars
Contracts have been exchanged and the decision now rests with mattershitz...who would be wise it eat some humble pie and accept it

[Nitrodaze]

Renault ≠ Infiniti

Renault does not equal Infiniti. Renault has never equaled Infiniti.




Actually, that's not what you said at all. In post #51 you wrote:



You said "Renault engines has alway (sic) been branded infiniti"; then you posted links to two photographs where the engine covers couldn't be seen. The truth is that Renault engines have never been branded Infiniti. Infiniti has appeared on the cars but never in the capacity of the engine supplier.

Infiniti is the title partner of the team and not the engines:

http://cms.infiniti-redbullracing.com/sites/default/files/press_release_group/press_release/infiniti_to_become_title_partner_of_red_bull_racin g_from_2013.25-11-2012.pdf
The increased agreement will see Infiniti become title partner from 2013, meaning Red Bull Racing’s team name will become Infiniti Red Bull Racing from the start of next season.
- RedBull info statement, 25 Nov 2012

Infiniti is a division part of the Nissan Motor Company which whilst is owned partly by Renault (and own part of Renault), the two are not synonymous.



I live in a terrace house on Pedant Corner, overlooking Persnickety Lane; where the Shriners and the lepers play their ukuleles all day long And anyone on the street will gladly shave your back for a nickel. Wacka wacka doodoo yeah!

Point taken, Wicki wacka doodaa

[Rollo]

Back with renault and they will be paying more for them and lose part of the the renault and total sponsorship money in 2016 and all from 2017.
Plus a likely rebranding of the engine (probably to infiniti) although i think it only helps renault to have an additional team with its name on the cars.

Aw nuts.

I was hoping for this:
http://www.foxsports.com.au/motor-sport/pit-talk-ferrari-open-door-to-rescue-red-bull-ricciardo-to-accept-f1-grid-penalty-in-brazil/story-e6frf3z3-1227603123090
“The possibility of co-operating with Red Bull remains an option but not in the context of them having an engine equivalent to what is used by Ferrari,” Ferrari president Sergio Marchionne was quoted by Italian media as saying.
“So there is a willingness to provide services as a side project, but it cannot be the engine that Ferrari uses in the race.”

- Fox Sports (AU), 10th Nov 2015

The way they were talking about this on the BBC World Service was that Ferrari may have even been willing to supply current spec short engines to Red Bull, and that Red Bull would undertake their own engineering.

Actually, if Red Bull were to buy out something like General Motors Holden for $1 when Detroit pulls the plug on Australian manufacturing operations on 1st Jul 2017, they could buy a fully working set of plant, equipment and staff and actually undertake their own engineering and be a fully fledged car company to boot.

[Nitrodaze]

well
I think its just about done:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/121722

Back with renault and they will be paying more for them and lose part of the the renault and total sponsorship money in 2016 and all from 2017.
Plus a likely rebranding of the engine (probably to infiniti) although i think it only helps renault to have an additional team with its name on the cars
Contracts have been exchanged and the decision now rests with mattershitz...who would be wise it eat some humble pie and accept it

Redbull suddenly finds themselves with loads of possibilities. Ferrari already has a relationship with Toro Ross, hence l can see a renewal of this relationship in 2016. I wonder if the B spec Ferrari engine would be more competitive than the illien developed Renault engine. Technically, the unbranded Redbull engine is a new entrant to F1 and would benefit from the new supplier entry rules, l am guessing. This would suggest that Redbull has more flexibility and possibility of making bigger competitive strides than using the B spec Ferrari engine. It would thus seem like a no brainer that Redbull may not consider Ferrari's offer as an option for 2016.

Besides, this seems like first steps towards becoming a works team. I have to say that l applaud them for such a courageous move.

[Rollo]

Technically, the unbranded Redbull engine is a new entrant to F1 and would benefit from the new supplier entry rules, l am guessing.

If I was Honda, I would seriously consider rebranding next year's engine as a Mugen. The same goes for Maybach, Lancia, Alpine.

I like this. Who knows what sort of worms could be let out of the can.

[Nitrodaze]

If I was Honda, I would seriously consider rebranding next year's engine as a Mugen. The same goes for Maybach, Lancia, Alpine.

I like this. Who knows what sort of worms could be let out of the can.

Keep up buddy, the idea only works if McLaren were taking Honda engine in house and rebranding it.

[Rollo]

Keep up buddy, the idea only works if McLaren were taking Honda engine in house and rebranding it.

Sort of, kind of? The story is far more complex that that.

Mecachrome SAS is an engineering company - their engines were branded to Williams as Mecachrome

Mecachrome engines were debranded and rebranded when Benetton renamed them Playlife. Playlife did no engineering at all.
Mecachrome engines were debranded and also rebranded as Supertec, in the back of Arrows, BAR and Williams. Supertec also did no engineering at all.

Petronas Engineering (aka Ferraris "built" under licence) were kind of a pretend engineering company from what I can gather. I have no idea of the arrangements but is it really a new engine if you pull it apart to component pieces and rebuild it again?


I don't think that McLaren would need to take an engine in house. Honda could play the shell game. Precedents for this sort of thing exist.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Redbull suddenly finds themselves with loads of possibilities. Ferrari already has a relationship with Toro Ross, hence l can see a renewal of this relationship in 2016. I wonder if the B spec Ferrari engine would be more competitive than the illien developed Renault engine. Technically, the unbranded Redbull engine is a new entrant to F1 and would benefit from the new supplier entry rules, l am guessing. This would suggest that Redbull has more flexibility and possibility of making bigger competitive strides than using the B spec Ferrari engine. It would thus seem like a no brainer that Redbull may not consider Ferrari's offer as an option for 2016.

Besides, this seems like first steps towards becoming a works team. I have to say that l applaud them for such a courageous move.

It would not be a new engine as it is still using some Renault parts that were previously homologated. So, technically, even an unbranded version would at best be a different version of the Renault, homologated independently from the original.

I don't think Red Bull will do too much development on it, as they are still pushing for the independent 2.2 ltr. Biturbo V6 in 2017. The rest depends on whether or not Volkswagen will survive the exhaust gas cheating scandal, which is not a given. I do think that nearly everything now depends on whether the 'Horner engine', as it is apparently called in the paddock, will be introduced. If so, RB will merely work on making the engine more reliable and mainly write off the 2016 season. That's the gist of what their mouth-piece Dr. Marko said on Austrian TV yesterday.

[Rollo]

TAG boss Mansour Ojjeh is in the process of selling his McLaren shares.

What if we see a Red Bull-TAG in 2017?

[Nitrodaze]

TAG boss Mansour Ojjeh is in the process of selling his McLaren shares.

What if we see a Red Bull-TAG in 2017?

Actually, it is rumoured that Renault intends to brand the engine TAG.

[Nitrodaze]

It would not be a new engine as it is still using some Renault parts that were previously homologated. So, technically, even an unbranded version would at best be a different version of the Renault, homologated independently from the original.

I don't think Red Bull will do too much development on it, as they are still pushing for the independent 2.2 ltr. Biturbo V6 in 2017. The rest depends on whether or not Volkswagen will survive the exhaust gas cheating scandal, which is not a given. I do think that nearly everything now depends on whether the 'Horner engine', as it is apparently called in the paddock, will be introduced. If so, RB will merely work on making the engine more reliable and mainly write off the 2016 season. That's the gist of what their mouth-piece Dr. Marko said on Austrian TV yesterday.

Actually, not all the parts are from Renault. Redbull has been developing some of the parts for the engine. I hear the software was jointly developed by Redbull and Renault. There might be enough there for Redbull to argue that it was a different engine from the stock Renault engine.

[Rollo]

TAG boss Mansour Ojjeh is in the process of selling his McLaren shares.

What if we see a Red Bull-TAG in 2017?

http://beta.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/122156/red-bull-announces-infiniti-split
Red Bull has confirmed it is to split from long-time Formula 1 commercial partner Infiniti at the end of the year.
The move, as predicted by Autosport, comes in the wake of Red Bull announcing on Friday an engine-branding tie up with new sponsor Tag Heuer.

- Autosport, 6th Dec 2015

Dear Autosport, I saw this before you did. I'm claiming psychic kudos on this one.

In other psychic news, Liverpool will not win the Premier League, they will find MH17 and Donald Trump will make insensitive remarks about Muslims.


This is