2015 Russian Grand Prix

[AndyL]

Session times for Sochi:

Friday 9 Oct
Free practice 1 starts: BST 8:00 AM, local 10:00 AM
Free practice 2 starts: BST 12:00 PM, local 2:00 PM
Saturday 10 Oct
Free practice 3 starts: BST 10:00 AM, local 12:00 PM
Qualifying starts: BST 1:00 PM, local 3:00 PM
Sunday 11 Oct
Race starts: BST 12:00 PM, local 2:00 PM

[jens]

Let's see what happens. For one I find it amazing, how close Vettel still is to Rosberg in WDC, considering the car differences... Reminds me 1992, when Patrese barely finished second in the championship despite a dominant car.

If I recall 2014, Sochi very much reminds me Valencia... So unless somebody hits barriers and brings out a safety car, I don't expect a very exciting race.

[AndyL]

Very little running in practice... a diesel slick left behind by a cleaning vehicle put paid to most of P1 and there was rain for P2.

[The Black Knight]

Ridiculous practice sessions today. They may as well have not happened. I would be rightly pissed off were I a fan that made it to this race today. I honestly believe that, unless the conditions are unsafe to run, or barring reliability issues, then every car must be forced to run a minimum number of laps in every FP session on Friday as this was just embarrassing for F1 today.

[AndyL]

It's a side effect of the tyre and engine restrictions I guess. Given unlimited tyres, engines and gearboxes, I bet they'd all be out there wearing a groove in the tarmac come rain or shine. Maybe the best way to make sure the Friday fans get their money's worth would be to apply the engine restrictions to Saturday and Sunday only, and allocate some extra tyres for Friday-only use (including wets).

You know what, I'd let them run non-homologated prototype engines on Friday too. Might help some of the struggling manufacturers catch up.

[rjbetty]

it's a side effect of the tyre and engine restrictions i guess. Given unlimited tyres, engines and gearboxes, i bet they'd all be out there wearing a groove in the tarmac come rain or shine. Maybe the best way to make sure the friday fans get their money's worth would be to apply the engine restrictions to saturday and sunday only, and allocate some extra tyres for friday-only use (including wets).

You know what, i'd let them run non-homologated prototype engines on friday too. Might help some of the struggling manufacturers catch up.

this is far too sensible!!!

[truefan72]

oh dear
Carlos Sainz has had a massive impact
I seriously hope he is ok.

It looks absolutely terrible

dear me

[truefan72]

session will not be restarted
condition of Sainz still unknown

this entire weekend has been strange and ominous

[truefan72]

ok some good news

on a stretcher entering the ambulance and gave a thumbs up.
was able to answer some basic questions

Official announcement from the FIA
Carlos is conscious and appears to have no serious injuries

They are now showing replays of the incident.
Still not clear as its only one camera view and after initial impact.

[truefan72]

ok 2 angles of the crash now. pretty tough initial impact.
Seems like he lost it under breaking on turn 13 and hit the left wall which pretty much destroyed the left sided of the car and it went uncontrolled into the barriers at some speed

[N4D13]

Incidentally, STR have announced that the reason for the accident seems to be a car failure. That's bizarre, but anyway, it would have also been strange that he lost the car there in that particular way, as that seems to be a rather unusual way to crash.

[AndyL]

Good news that the word from the hospital is Sainz is uninjured.

Another impressive performance from Bottas in qualifying.

[truefan72]

Sainz has been given permission to race tomorrow

[steveaki13]

Hi everyone.

Been away and ready for a bore fest to be honest. I hope not but 2014 here was 2/10 at best.

Be interesting to see a Mercedes fight if Lewis can pass Nico.

[steveaki13]

Whoops. Hulkenberg spins and takes Verstappen with him.

Then Ericcson has no where to go.

18 cars left. Not sure what happened to Grosjean

[steveaki13]

Rosberg out?????????????????????????????


Bad news for championship. :(

[Robinho]

That lotus is a mess

Sent from my 0PJA10 using Tapatalk

[rjbetty]

*Throws arms in air* Well that's it then!

I do feel sorry for Nico, even though I don't always particularly like the guy. Guess it's just not his year. You never know, Hamilton could retire too then a Finn would win.

[Robinho]

Glad to see Romain out of the car, that was a nasty one

Sent from my 0PJA10 using Tapatalk

[steveaki13]

Better race than the whole 2014 race.

Bad accident there for Grosjean. Lost the back end.

[Robinho]

Nice bit of Russian engineering going in, gaffer taping the state of the art safety barriers back together

Sent from my 0PJA10 using Tapatalk

[steveaki13]

I wish they would red flag the race to do this. We just end up with 10 non racing laps.

But precious TV schedules have to be kept. (Joke)

[gm99]

Another Williams pit-strategy cock-up...

[steveaki13]

Two finns having a battle. Good stuff

[steveaki13]

Interesting podium fight

[Robinho]

Well that marshall is a dickhead

Sent from my 0PJA10 using Tapatalk

[veeten]

Kimi and Bott throw the race away, and Perez is the winner of that dust-up.

[gm99]

Kimi and Bott throw the race away, and Perez is the winner of that dust-up.

I don't quite see how Bottas threw anything away there, Kimi just took him out...

[AndyL]

Well that marshall is a dickhead

Crazy. Nearly got collected by Vettel.

[truefan72]

it was an interesting finish.
Just a little bit more patience from kimi and he would have had bottas

but its encouraging to see his feistyness
Shame for bottas
The real blame, once again, is the williams race engineer who decided to pit bottas like 3 laps too late
How these guys manage to botch pit strategy race after race is almost comical

[steveaki13]

Not sure Bottas chucked much away.

Kimi was a moron in that move sadly and maybe shows why he has had his day.

Marshall was an idiot or his supervisors were for sending him out around the corners

[Robinho]

All kimi I'm afraid

Sent from my 0PJA10 using Tapatalk

[truefan72]

Crazy. Nearly got collected by Vettel.

"brave" is the right word guys

[truefan72]

congrats to Maldonado for a strong p8
and surprise, surprise, both mclarens finish in the points with their gp2 engines

[truefan72]

IMO they should allow the results to stand and impose a grid penalty for the next race
Its not like kimi came out a winner either, I just don;t like all these after the race penalties, etc

[AndyL]

By my arithmetic, if Raikonnen gets a 20 second penalty then Mercedes take the constructors' championship.

[Robinho]

Bernie and Putin in the same room and not a friendly assassin sight, how much nicer the world could have just become

Sent from my 0PJA10 using Tapatalk

[steveaki13]

Last year we had shots of Put in all race

Sent from my GT-I9301I using Tapatalk

[AndyL]

Kimi got a 30s penalty, which puts him 8th and gives Mercedes the constructors' title.

Fernando takes 5s for corner-cutting, which loses McLaren their double points finish.

[Nitrodaze]

Rotten luck for Rosberg today, if Rosberg had won, it would have spiced up the rest of the season. As it is, would say it is looking like a slam dunk for a Hamilton 3rd World Championship title.

It was great to see Kimi drive as he did today. He definitely had the bit between his teeth today. Somehow he just manages not to reap the rewards of his excellent performances, odd luck l say. And Bottas was simply the star of the race for me, he put up a giant fight with the Ferraris today. A drive well deserving of a podium until his run was rudely snuffed out by Kimi.

Perez and Force India quietly sneaked onto the podium with what l have to say was simply the best pit wall strategy this season. The gamble paid off big time. A well deserved podium for Force india and Perez. Also a great recovery for Massa to 4th. He was overshadowed by his teammate on race day. But he stepup to deliver the team a haul of valuable point in 4th.

I have to say l was well chuffed to see both Mclaren-Hondas in the points, 9th and 10th is a great sign that whatever Honda is doing is beginning to work. There is hope for great things to come by this performance.

I think both Fins stole the show today with some gritty and close racing.

[The Black Knight]

Rubbish grand prix, though definitely better than last years.

With the Constructors championship sewn up, it is now just a formality for Lewis Hamilton to seal the title. All he needs is a Mercedes 1-2 win in Austin, with him in first position, to be crowned champion. Otherwise he'll just, even if he finishes the remaining races in 6th place with Seb winning the rest, still be crowned 2015 champion, and very much deserved title for him.

It was a pity that Nico suffered his failure so early on. A very unlikely thing to happen but, nonetheless, one of those things that happens in motorsport. Nico has now had two retirements to Hamiltons one retirement so, it's not even on that front but even so the deficit between their performance throughout the year merits Hamilton winning the title in Austin.

One eye on 2016 to see if Ferrari can step up to the plate again. I have my doubts that they can because they seem to ebb and flow since the Schumacher days, a good car one year, a step back the next. If they don't it'll be another Mercedes walkover for the next couple of years and, even with 2017 rule changes, I can't see that changing too much.

[The Black Knight]

One again I'll reiterate that I don't see a top tier driver in Bottas at all. You always know when it comes to pitstops and if someone needs to get by him they will get him. I also think that Williams car is much better than the drivers are making it seem. I honestly feel that with a better set of drivers in there, they would do much better.

[zako85]

What a great race. There was a very hard fight for every finishing position besides P1. Here is a fine counterexample to all the people parroting the thesis that all Herman Tilke tracks suck. Sure, the 2014 Russia GP really sucked, but the reason it sucked was from the fact that in 2014 Pirelli brought to Sochi a conservative tire that could last from October all the way through the final race at Abu Dhabi. This time we were actually treated to a fine race.

[Nitrodaze]

One again I'll reiterate that I don't see a top tier driver in Bottas at all. You always know when it comes to pitstops and if someone needs to get by him they will get him. I also think that Williams car is much better than the drivers are making it seem. I honestly feel that with a better set of drivers in there, they would do much better.
I think you give the Williams car too much credit. In race trim, it has under performed relative to the Ferrari which they should be giving a harder time. The problem is clearly not engine but chassis related. The Williams chassis is just not as good as the Ferrari or Redbull chassis. It is clearly the best of the rest of the Mercedes shod cars bar the Constructor World champions. I think there is a world champion inherent in Bottas. I agree that someone like Alonso, Hamilton or Vettel could get a little bit more out of the Williams, but l doubt very much more than a few tenths. Williams have to sort out their chassis for 2016, if they want to beat Ferrari to 2nd Next season. That of course depends on Ferrari not finding enough horsepower in their engine to haul in the Mercedes Petronas engine in 2016.

[The Black Knight]

I think you give the Williams car too much credit. In race trim, it has under performed relative to the Ferrari which they should be giving a harder time. The problem is clearly not engine but chassis related. The Williams chassis is just not as good as the Ferrari or Redbull chassis. It is clearly the best of the rest of the Mercedes shod cars bar the Constructor World champions. I think there is a world champion inherent in Bottas. I agree that someone like Alonso, Hamilton or Vettel could get a little bit more out of the Williams, but l doubt very much more than a few tenths. Williams have to sort out their chassis for 2016, if they want to beat Ferrari to 2nd Next season. That of course depends on Ferrari not finding enough horsepower in their engine to haul in the Mercedes Petronas engine in 2016.

I don't see any champion inherent in Bottas at all. He's being beaten on a regular basis by Massa and certainly Massa isn't among the best out there. The question really is why the car is under performing in race trim and I really feel that is because they don't have two top drivers in their car. I haven't seen what it is that other people do in Bottas. I can maybe see him getting a championship if he does a Button 2009 but that's about it. If I had a choice between him and Rosberg in my car, I'd chose Rosberg any day of the week as I regard Nico as in the top 5 drivers out there but just, unfortunately for him, he's pitted against one of the best the sport has ever seen. Bottas on the other hand, a handy driver but I can't see him being WDC any time soon.

And as for Ferrari, they not alone have to improve their engine but also their chassis. Mercedes, on the other hand, can take another big leap. I would expect them to stay on top, unless something has truly changed at Ferrari. Maybe Vettel will make the difference and put up a fight if that's the case, but I'd expect to see Kimi lagging behind just like he is this year.

[rjbetty]

What I don't understand about Bottas is that this year, I can't really see a drive where he's really stood out, one that makes you say WOW!

In 2013 he had qualifying 3rd in Canada in the wet, then that race in Austin where he started 9th but it could have been 5th and raced well to 8th (the Williams always seemed slower in race trim then). It seems from the standout days that you can judge a champion.

Last year there maybe wasn't a standout drive either, but Williams' approach was to be conservative and bring in the points while the sun was shining. I don't blame them for that at all in 2014, having just had the recent past they had, and with their last competitive season in 2012, squandering so many points that it almost didn't matter.

But the conservative approach has continued into 2015 where it's now not so clever...



The thing I don't like about Tilke tracks is they are all too much the the same. They don't have enough variety.

[truefan72]

I don't see any champion inherent in Bottas at all. He's being beaten on a regular basis by Massa and certainly Massa isn't among the best out there. The question really is why the car is under performing in race trim and I really feel that is because they don't have two top drivers in their car. I haven't seen what it is that other people do in Bottas. I can maybe see him getting a championship if he does a Button 2009 but that's about it. If I had a choice between him and Rosberg in my car, I'd chose Rosberg any day of the week as I regard Nico as in the top 5 drivers out there but just, unfortunately for him, he's pitted against one of the best the sport has ever seen. Bottas on the other hand, a handy driver but I can't see him being WDC any time soon.

And as for Ferrari, they not alone have to improve their engine but also their chassis. Mercedes, on the other hand, can take another big leap. I would expect them to stay on top, unless something has truly changed at Ferrari. Maybe Vettel will make the difference and put up a fight if that's the case, but I'd expect to see Kimi lagging behind just like he is this year.

Bottas is a curious case and the closest driver i can think of that he reminds me off is Nick Heidfeld.
That is both praise and slightly damning at the same time
The williams is a pretty good car but does have some chassis issues on certain tracks and sometimes is mysteriously slow.
Unlike Ferrari, I think the engines Mercedes supply them allow them to stay at the sharper end of the grid and Silverstone 2015 and Austria 2014 proved that they can easily stay out in the lead if they find themselves in that position (IMO i don't get all the nonsense about works teams being embarrassed when an engine customer team is doing well. Its just bollocks to me.) They are usually undone by piss poor race management. Calling it conservative would be wrong. It's more like panicked at the prospect of winning reactions.

Anyway, I do agree that their drivers are adequate but not stellar. I think if you had Hulkenberg and Grosjean in that williams, you would see something special and regular podiums.
Heck, I think a perez and vandoorn lineup will be pretty strong too. If alonso would have agreed on a pay cut, he could probably have had that williams seat above massa and hauled that car to regular podiums and maybe and odd win here and there.
I think williams are like Toyota 2007-2009; a pretty awesome car with below average drivers. Especially in 2009.
Bottas trajectory is still pointing up, but he I agree that he lacks a certain something to push him into elite status.

[Nitrodaze]

I don't see any champion inherent in Bottas at all. He's being beaten on a regular basis by Massa and certainly Massa isn't among the best out there. The question really is why the car is under performing in race trim and I really feel that is because they don't have two top drivers in their car. I haven't seen what it is that other people do in Bottas. I can maybe see him getting a championship if he does a Button 2009 but that's about it. If I had a choice between him and Rosberg in my car, I'd chose Rosberg any day of the week as I regard Nico as in the top 5 drivers out there but just, unfortunately for him, he's pitted against one of the best the sport has ever seen. Bottas on the other hand, a handy driver but I can't see him being WDC any time soon.

And as for Ferrari, they not alone have to improve their engine but also their chassis. Mercedes, on the other hand, can take another big leap. I would expect them to stay on top, unless something has truly changed at Ferrari. Maybe Vettel will make the difference and put up a fight if that's the case, but I'd expect to see Kimi lagging behind just like he is this year.

I would say Bottas or Ricciado in a championship winning car are more than capable of becoming world champions. The problem with the Williams team is not their driver lineup but twofold. Firstly, is the competitive mentality of the team is self-defeatingly conservative. This may be partly due to the limited funds that they have to work with. Secondly, the chassis of the car is not quite or consistently sharpend material.

I think the performance of both driver has to some extent suffered from operational deficiencies of the Williams team most of the time this year. Their race strategies has been one of the poorest this year. I am sure you remember Bottas fitted with one incorrect tyre recently. Pitstops has been poor, they have regularly lost positions due to poor timing of pitstops. Car setup has been a hit and miss situation on a number of occasions and has cost them opportunities to win races that was more or less gifted them.

The Williams is fast, the lack of realizing its full potential is not due to its driver lineup, but mostly due to its operational immaturity (this is surprising to say but true) and inefficiencies of the chassis which has translated to the massive gap between Williams and Ferrari. Change of driver lineup is not going to makeup for the issues they have with their operations or the chassis. Of course the driver personifies the car and is judged harshly for it. You have to remember that Bottas is a mature rookie like Ricciado, yet has on occasions performed better than a more experienced Massa. When Williams sort out the gremlins in their chassis, Bottas would be a revelation on the grid.

I have to agree that Bottas in his current state of development is not on par with Rosberg for example. But l am speaking of the trajectory of his development based on his performance over the last 2 years. His fight with Kimi at Sochi gives insight to what is possible with Bottas in a competitive car.

[truefan72]

I have to agree that Bottas in his current state of development is not on par with Rosberg for example. But l am speaking of the trajectory of his development based on his performance over the last 2 years. His fight with Kimi at Sochi gives insight to what is possible with Bottas in a competitive car.

TBH his fight with kimi wasn't a fight it was Bottas inability to get past ricciardo followed by his further inability to get by Perez that allowed a much faster kimi to catch up and nearly overtake him.
It is not as if he was defending laps on end. I think Bottos is a good driver and his career could go either way, but in 2015 it must be said that he has taken a slight dip in form.
However, I do think if williams allowed him to pass massa in Silverstone, he might have won that race with massa providing crucial rearguard action in the first stint...until their pit stop strategy would of course, foil their own plans lol

[Nitrodaze]

TBH his fight with kimi wasn't a fight it was Bottas inability to get past ricciardo followed by his further inability to get by Perez that allowed a much faster kimi to catch up and nearly overtake him.
It is not as if he was defending laps on end. I think Bottos is a good driver and his career could go either way, but in 2015 it must be said that he has taken a slight dip in form.
However, I do think if williams allowed him to pass massa in Silverstone, he might have won that race with massa providing crucial rearguard action in the first stint...until their pit stop strategy would of course, foil their own plans lol

I think the Williams aerodynamics suffers in the wake of a another car. Massa had the same difficulty passing Kyvat in the other Redbull. You would expect the Williams to breeze past the slower Redbull on the straight but it struggled. You can really guage Bottas' form properly if the car was performing exceptionally well. As it is, the car isn't. The Williams is fast in qualifying trim but poor in race trim. It should be a regular visitor to the podium with one of its drivers but fails to do so because the car and the teams pit strategies fail to deliver a good performance during the race. You can blame the drivers but to be fair take the team and its car into consideration also.

[truefan72]

I think the Williams aerodynamics suffers in the wake of a another car. Massa had the same difficulty passing Kyvat in the other Redbull. You would expect the Williams to breeze past the slower Redbull on the straight but it struggled. You can really guage Bottas' form properly if the car was performing exceptionally well. As it is, the car isn't. The Williams is fast in qualifying trim but poor in race trim. It should be a regular visitor to the podium with one of its drivers but fails to do so because the car and the teams pit strategies fail to deliver a good performance during the race. You can blame the drivers but to be fair take the team and its car into consideration also.

agreed
If i were to rate the issues with williams it would be Chassis 1; Team decisions 2 ; and drivers 3
all contribute to the slightly underwhelming outcome.
IMO and as you say, they should be a constant feature on the podium
I will give kudos to mercedes for providing both williams, force india and Lotus with decent engines
Which leaves me somewhat excited at the prospect of manor vastly improving next year.
Which will make Alonso eat his words lol

[The Black Knight]

I would say Bottas or Ricciado in a championship winning car are more than capable of becoming world champions. The problem with the Williams team is not their driver lineup but twofold. Firstly, is the competitive mentality of the team is self-defeatingly conservative. This may be partly due to the limited funds that they have to work with. Secondly, the chassis of the car is not quite or consistently sharpend material.

I think the performance of both driver has to some extent suffered from operational deficiencies of the Williams team most of the time this year. Their race strategies has been one of the poorest this year. I am sure you remember Bottas fitted with one incorrect tyre recently. Pitstops has been poor, they have regularly lost positions due to poor timing of pitstops. Car setup has been a hit and miss situation on a number of occasions and has cost them opportunities to win races that was more or less gifted them.

The Williams is fast, the lack of realizing its full potential is not due to its driver lineup, but mostly due to its operational immaturity (this is surprising to say but true) and inefficiencies of the chassis which has translated to the massive gap between Williams and Ferrari. Change of driver lineup is not going to makeup for the issues they have with their operations or the chassis. Of course the driver personifies the car and is judged harshly for it. You have to remember that Bottas is a mature rookie like Ricciado, yet has on occasions performed better than a more experienced Massa. When Williams sort out the gremlins in their chassis, Bottas would be a revelation on the grid.

I have to agree that Bottas in his current state of development is not on par with Rosberg for example. But l am speaking of the trajectory of his development based on his performance over the last 2 years. His fight with Kimi at Sochi gives insight to what is possible with Bottas in a competitive car.

Ricciardo is absolutely capable of winning a WDC, he proved that last year when he put Seb to bed. There is an operations issue at Williams and I agree that changing driver lineup won't change everything but the drivers could also be doing better. There are certain things out of their control but not everything. Is the Williams up to the standard of the Ferrari? Definitely not but it should be a heck of a lot closer imo. TBH Rosberg's pass on Bottas in Japan, Hamilton passing Bottas in Sliverstone on the first lap, all these cumulative things prove to me that he is not a top tier driver. A top driver would not be caught out like this and there is absolutely no way Rosberg would have pulled that Japan move on Hamilton, Vettel or Alonso. He did do it to Bottas though as he knew he'd get by. It's these things that, to me, combine some of the difference between a the top tier of F1.

That and Bottas has been outperformed by Massa on quite a number of occassions, all suggest to me that he is overrated. We must take into account as well that Williams history of judging drivers isn't exactly stellar either. They were all praise for how good Maldonado and his natural talent but the same guy was a second slower than Grosjean in qualifying last tiem out. Williams have always had this problem where they don't recognise a great driver when they have one and then over hype a mediocre one. They are the only team I can think of that, by choice, left go of a driver that just won them the WDC and WCC.

So all I see in Bottas is a fantastic driver but one that is overhyped by people that were never good at judging drivers to begin with and his performances this year against Massa have just reinforced that.

[jens]

Not a bad race. Better than last year.:p: A few incidents, which triggered the safety car, and the fight for P3 in the final phase of the race were good.

Vettel IS now second in the championship - ahead of Rosberg. Never really thought something like that could happen this year! Let's see, how their "battle" ends though.

Räikkönen reminds me a driver, who at the end of his career has lost a bit of concentration or become a bit careless. Quite a random mistake from him. Probably it was a thing of honour for him - didn't want to get beaten by another Finn! :p:

Good drive by Pérez. Hülkenberg must be a bit pissed. Second year in a row he has missed out on a podium, while Checo has got one. But a very impressive season by Pérez and with his good tyre management skills delivered it, though needed luck as well.

The hats were a really good joke on the podium though. It was a proper laugh.:laugh: :laugh: Good thing to know Russians haven't lost humour!

--

As for the Bottas discussion here - he is a decent second tier driver together with the likes of Hülkenberg, Perez, Grosjean, Rosberg, Button, etc guys. I do think he lacks a bit of aggressiveness - he drives safely, which means he rarely gets involved in accidents (or at least doesn't cause them!). I don't think Bottas is up there with the best (HAM, ALO, VET, RIC), but it is a very selected group of drivers anyway.

As for the strategy of Williams. Their race pace is not as good as qualifying pace and it seems that they have tyre management problems, which means their strategies are compromised. That's why Bottas was pitted earlier. His tyres were gone and Vettel was going to get ahead anyway.

[zako85]

Ricciardo is absolutely capable of winning a WDC, he proved that last year when he put Seb to bed.


I think by 2014 Seb was too used to driving with his fancy diffuser aero tools, and then got startled when his car is no longer fastest, and in fact breaks more often than Ricciardo's (in the past, it was Webber's car that broke all the time). With Ferrari plans already in place, Seb had probably written off the season, at least somewhat subconsciously.




That and Bottas has been outperformed by Massa on quite a number of occassions, all suggest to me that he is overrated.

Don't forget that Williams is still consistently half to one second slower than Mercedes in the qualifying sessions, with very few exceptions.



They are the only team I can think of that, by choice, left go of a driver that just won them the WDC and WCC.

They did it more than once. After 1992, 1993, 1996. Granted, considering Hill's performance in 1995, I am sure many people who were somewhat more impartial than the British fans thought that Hill was vastly inferior to Schumacher, and probably to many other drivers on the grid.

[rjbetty]

This is an interesting discussion 'ere. :)

With Bottas, I will need to put the hype on hold for a bit. I do think he is a bit better than Hulkenberg was at this stage in his career.

Though I never rated Felipe Massa as a top tier driver, I still know he is good or very good, but I am a bit surprised at how equal he is with Bottas this season. I know last season was much closer than it looked and external factors came into play to make a big gap, but I still expected Valtteri to put a bit of a gap between himself and Flip this year.

I am a Bottas fan, but despite what some might tell you, I don't think I'm a 'fanboy' (of anyone).

In 2014 I was able to see that over the first half of the season, looking closer, that Massa was the quicker driver. But Valtteri did seem to move forward from Austria onwards.

I think he and Hulkenberg are having the same problem, this year and in general. Both are driving with slightly dipped heads. I think Bottas in his heart of hearts thought he would be a clear 3rd nipping at the heels of Mercedes, similar to how Vettel has been this year. I think he is demotivated cos the car is actually a little further off Merc than last year.

Then as with Hulkenberg, he was rejected by Ferrari. Despite his claims, it looks clear to me he had his heart set on that move, and it was notable that he wasn't jumping for joy when confirmed at Williams again after all. It's understandable but Hulk and Bottas are not being like Senna or Alonso would be (well I think Senna was a bit demotivated during the Williams domination of early '90s).

They are also both just too conservative. I would say both are definitely quicker than Nick Heidfeld though.

[rjbetty]

***EDIT: 'ELP I DOUBLE POSTED COS MY INTERNET CONNECTION IS SHOCKING***


This is an interesting discussion 'ere. :)

With Bottas, I will need to put the hype on hold for a bit. I do think he is a bit better than Hulkenberg was at this stage in his career.

Though I never rated Felipe Massa as a top tier driver, I still know he is good or very good, but I am a bit surprised at how equal he is with Bottas this season. I know last season was much closer than it looked and external factors came into play to make a big gap, but I still expected Valtteri to put a bit of a gap between himself and Flip this year.

I am a Bottas fan, but despite what some might tell you, I don't think I'm a 'fanboy' (of anyone).

In 2014 I was able to see that over the first half of the season, looking closer, that Massa was the quicker driver. But Valtteri did seem to move forward from Austria onwards.

I think he and Hulkenberg are having the same problem, this year and in general. Both are driving with slightly dipped heads. I think Bottas in his heart of hearts thought he would be a clear 3rd nipping at the heels of Mercedes, similar to how Vettel has been this year. I think he is demotivated cos the car is actually a little further off Merc than last year.

Then as with Hulkenberg, he was rejected by Ferrari. Despite his claims, it looks clear to me he had his heart set on that move, and it was notable that he wasn't jumping for joy when confirmed at Williams again after all. It's understandable but Hulk and Bottas are not being like Senna or Alonso would be (well I think Senna was a bit demotivated during the Williams domination of early '90s).

They are also both just too conservative. I would say both are definitely quicker than Nick Heidfeld though.

[The Black Knight]

I think by 2014 Seb was too used to driving with his fancy diffuser aero tools, and then got startled when his car is no longer fastest, and in fact breaks more often than Ricciardo's (in the past, it was Webber's car that broke all the time). With Ferrari plans already in place, Seb had probably written off the season, at least somewhat subconsciously.





Don't forget that Williams is still consistently half to one second slower than Mercedes in the qualifying sessions, with very few exceptions.



They did it more than once. After 1992, 1993, 1996. Granted, considering Hill's performance in 1995, I am sure many people who were somewhat more impartial than the British fans thought that Hill was vastly inferior to Schumacher, and probably to many other drivers on the grid.

That's no excuse. I can't see someone like Schumacher, one of the true greats, ever having that mindset. Seb got his ass handed to him, plain and simple.

Williams would probably be less than half a second slower than Mercedes in qualifying sessions had they two top notch drivers in there.

[The Black Knight]

***EDIT: 'ELP I DOUBLE POSTED COS MY INTERNET CONNECTION IS SHOCKING***


This is an interesting discussion 'ere. :)

With Bottas, I will need to put the hype on hold for a bit. I do think he is a bit better than Hulkenberg was at this stage in his career.

Though I never rated Felipe Massa as a top tier driver, I still know he is good or very good, but I am a bit surprised at how equal he is with Bottas this season. I know last season was much closer than it looked and external factors came into play to make a big gap, but I still expected Valtteri to put a bit of a gap between himself and Flip this year.

I am a Bottas fan, but despite what some might tell you, I don't think I'm a 'fanboy' (of anyone).

In 2014 I was able to see that over the first half of the season, looking closer, that Massa was the quicker driver. But Valtteri did seem to move forward from Austria onwards.

I think he and Hulkenberg are having the same problem, this year and in general. Both are driving with slightly dipped heads. I think Bottas in his heart of hearts thought he would be a clear 3rd nipping at the heels of Mercedes, similar to how Vettel has been this year. I think he is demotivated cos the car is actually a little further off Merc than last year.

Then as with Hulkenberg, he was rejected by Ferrari. Despite his claims, it looks clear to me he had his heart set on that move, and it was notable that he wasn't jumping for joy when confirmed at Williams again after all. It's understandable but Hulk and Bottas are not being like Senna or Alonso would be (well I think Senna was a bit demotivated during the Williams domination of early '90s).

They are also both just too conservative. I would say both are definitely quicker than Nick Heidfeld though.

If Bottas feels demotivated then perhaps a paycut or move in profession should suit him. I don't buy the whole drivers being demotivated thing. They are getting paid big big money to drive the best cars in the world in the best circuits across the world so being demotivated deserves demotion, imo. If you can't be motivated by your given situation in F1 that millions of people would give their right nut for, then you probably don't deserve to be in it. I can understand little dips in form because no one is perfect, no matter how much money you pay them. Ricciardo had a slight dip this year, but dips in form that last longer than a couple of races are not acceptable imo. This is the one and probably only area I agree with RBR's and Helmut Marko's attitude to and that is "perform or you're out". If Bottas is demotivated then he should leave F1 and do something that motivates him.

I'd probably rate Bottas ahead of Hulkenberg but I wouldn't rate either Hulk or Bottas as top tier. Senna may have been demotivated during Williams dominance but it certainly didn't show in his driving in 1993. His driving was genius that year, just like Alonso's in 2012 or Schumacher 98 etc.

[Nitrodaze]

As l pointed out in my last post, l take into consideration the maturity and performance trajectory of Bottas when l rated him as l did. With the state of affairs at Williams it is too early to rate Bottas properly as it is for Ricciado that has been beaten on more occasions than most would have expected by Kyvat.
I look at things from the perspective of who are the next crop of A class drivers to develop into the space occupied by Hamilton, Vettel, Alonso, Rosberg and Raikonen. The future driver world champions and protagonists to the throne, if you like. I mean the main guys who are going to be fighting each other for the DWC in the next era.
I expect at least one brilliant new blood to do a Hamilton and upset the status quo. But l also expect Ricciado, Bottas and possibly Kyvat and Verstapenn to be consistently in that fight. I have not fully made up my mind on Sainz, but he is looking like one that may also be in this group.

[jens]

They are also both just too conservative. I would say both are definitely quicker than Nick Heidfeld though.

Funny thing, but to me Bottas seems exactly like a Finnish Nick Heidfeld. A safe pair of hands, isn't overly aggressive and brings the points home consistently. Does not have what some would call an "exciting driving style" in the mould of Montoya, G. Villeneuve or Alesi. "Conservative" may be a good word here indeed.

Hülkenberg is also very much in that range. Heidfeld was not slow at all. He just lacked the last couple of tenths compared to the top echelon. Then again the "top echelon" consists only of 3-5 drivers max at any given time anyway, so well yeah.

[truefan72]

Funny thing, but to me Bottas seems exactly like a Finnish Nick Heidfeld. A safe pair of hands, isn't overly aggressive and brings the points home consistently. Does not have what some would call an "exciting driving style" in the mould of Montoya, G. Villeneuve or Alesi. "Conservative" may be a good word here indeed.

Hülkenberg is also very much in that range. Heidfeld was not slow at all. He just lacked the last couple of tenths compared to the top echelon. Then again the "top echelon" consists only of 3-5 drivers max at any given time anyway, so well yeah.

Lol

I aid that too earlier. That bottas was today's incarnation of Heidfeld.
As to Hulkenberg, He is top notch in my book. If he was driving the Williams, he would have probably had one race win already in the past 2 years and maybe a couple.
I've seen enough to know that He is the real deal. With a bit more patience, he would have won Brazil 2012 (he ended up taking out both himself and hamilton) in a Force India!
and didn't he get pole the year before in a williams. Hulkenberg is the real deal. Just needs a better seat (or hopefully a vastly improved Force India in 2016)