New Teams

[rjbetty]

I am very interested in the possible prospects for Haas in F1 next year as a new team. I am having a very hard time trying to decide how competitive they could be, so I thought maybe it would help to look at other new teams from the (kinda) recent past to see how they got on in their first year. I will start with Sauber, then every new team since.

Sauber - 1993
Points on debut for JJ Lehto. Lehto and Karl Wendlinger enjoyed a very competitive car, qualifying 5th several times and running very strongly indeed in many races. It was very impressive though unreliability (remember that?) cost them points, and they failed to make the podium.

Simtek - 1994
Nick Wirth's team made a pretty tidy debut when the car ran ok. I always thought Manor/Marussia were very similar to Simtek, especially when they started in 2010. There was the Nick Wirth involvement, some plucky performances, and even having to taste tragedy (if it's ok to say that). Anyway a best finish of 9th in season 1, and far outperforming Pacific, whilst at times getting amongst the tail end of the established teams.

Pacific Grand Prix (no, not the race that curiously also ran in both the years this team existed) - 1994
Possibly my favourite ever team. I'm so fond of them. But in reality a shocking first attempt. Hopes of a few points later in the season proved to be a pipe dream as they didn't even finish a race - not even a single one - and this was when they actually qualified, which was as rare as a driver spinning into gravel into retirement today. The car was little more than a F3000 car, with extremely square looking wings, and a by then poor Ilmor engine.

Forti - 1995
No better than Pacific's 1994 for pace, and they seemed (kinda unfairly imo) a bit of a laughing stock, mainly due to their notorious pay-driver Pedro Diniz, who was much derided in his early years but turned out to be pretty good at times. The car was much better than Pacific as it was actually fairly reliable, and also ended up overtaking them for pace by the end of the season, culminating in an oh-so-close 7th place in the season finale at Adelaide. Huge bonus points for that cracking bright yellow colour scheme.

Stewart Grand Prix - 1997
Now this actually looks quite similar to Haas when I think about it. Just like Haas, Jackie had spent a whole year in preparation for this, and signed a good engine deal (like Haas) and made a very good signing for lead driver with a fairly decent guy in the second seat, just like Haas (assuming Gutierrez gets the 2nd seat). The result was a very promising 11th on the grid on debut, followed by starting 5th in Argentina, and sensationally almost grabbing pole in Canada. This was just after finishing in an amazing 2nd place at Monaco, which had Jackie in tears of joy. Other highlights included starting 5th and 6th in Austria. A very impressive first season indeed.

Lola - 1997
Probably the most infamous of them all. Well documented that they ran in Australian qualifying in 97 and managed to get one of their cars within 12sec off pole. They were never seen again...

Do B.A.R. count? - 1999
Well there was that... unique colour scheme, falling out with the FIA over it, then the bold. arrogant, Helmut-Marko-like declarations (i.e. winning their first race), Villeneuve not even finishing a race until Belgium, Jacques' negative attitude in general, and [I]not scoring any points whatsoever and finishing dead last in the constructors[I]. So no it didn't go well. The only saving grace was that with a good Villeneuve in the car, the actual pace was very decent on the most part.

Toyota - 2002
Another team that deferred their entry an entire year so they could prepare (sensing a trend here?). As I remember, they seemed to spend their time insisting they would be at the back of the grid. I indeed expected them to be not much better than Minardi and probably not scoring any points. Only for them to do so at the first race, while also qualifying a very solid 14th and 16th - already much higher than I'd expected. Salo then went on to qualify in the top 10 as often as not, capping a good debut season.

Super (duper) Aguri - 2006
Expected to start around 6 or 7 seconds off the pace, it was immediately about 2 better than that. Bonus points for initially using the distinctive Arrows chassis from 2002! Considering the circumstances about their startup I think they were impressive indeed, able to mix it with Toro Rossos and Midland Spykers as the season went on, culminating in a superb race in Brazil with 7th and 9th fastest laps. In hindsight I think a lot of it was from receiving technical support from Honda, effectively running as a sort of B team (again, sensing something in common here, hint hint?)

Lotus F1/Caterham, Virgin/Marussia/Manor and Campos Meta/Hispania/HRT - 2010
Three new teams for 2010 slapped together on the promise of a budget cap. Because Super Aguri were able to mix it with established tail enders from time to time, I expected the same from 2010's new teams. In reality, they were a long way off and the gap didn't close over the season much.

Caterham initially looked like the team most likely going somewhere while in my opinion over the first 3 years, I always thought Marussia would be the ones to go under if anyone did (amazing to think how it turned out eh?!!) Caterham announced Renault engines, technical partnerships etc and indeed got closer in 2011, though maybe we hoped for a little more/ 2012 saw another big step in closing the performance gap. Unfortunately so had everyone else in an unusually strong in depth season. It was 2013 that saw things unravel imo and Tony Fernandes lost interest and that was that.

HRT were an extreme skeleton crew who I nevertheless had respect for. They were unfairly derided imo but I believed in them and their potential if they could develop themselves. Unfortunately they had to make this big whole thing about moving everything to Spain, or out of Spain (can't remember) rather than concentrating on the basics, resulting in them going bust.

I've said plenty about Manor but I can't say enough how much I respect these guys after everything they've been through. The way they live within their means, are so efficient and prudent with what they have, brave the constant ridicule and never give up, surpassing even my own expectations to rise from the ashes. Now they have Mercedes engines, which look like they will be 2016 spec - WOW!!



Maybe this should be in the History thread but I thought it would be nice to share my thoughts.

[Jag_Warrior]

Thanks for that. You have an amazing memory. I'd forgotten all about Pacific.

I was also a fan of Simtek and recall more than a few of the jokes made about the Forti-Fords. My hope is that Haas comes out of the gate like Stewart, and not like Forti or Lola.

[truefan72]

Super Aguri embarrassed Honda with their performance as Honda got it totally wrong in 2007 and 2008. So in their infinite wisdom and the stupidity of Nick Fry, did the impossible. They undermined the team and destroyed it. Another season and Super Aguri would probably have been independent considering that they would have gotten some well deserved payouts for their performances. It is a shame
highlight will also be canada 2007 for m when sato passed Alonso

[Firstgear]

If you want to include the full spectrum of possibilities for a new team, you should add at least one more team to your list.

US F1 was granted entry in 2010, but didn't even get far enough to make it to the grid.

[AndyL]

Great history Rj.

It was good to see one or two fans still flying the flag for Super Aguri at Suzuka.

[Nitrodaze]

A mate of mine worked in the chassis team for Super Aguri. From what l saw of the chassis, it had the hallmarks of a possible great car. The funny thing was Honda spent a fortune redesigning the chassis from scratch and then pulled out before they put the new car on track for the following season. Of course, that car became Brawn, the chassis was coupled to a Mercedes engine and the rest was history.

Unfortunately, Honda was hit with financial issues which forced them to pull out of what could have been a Honda chassis and engine combo world championship winning year.

But times have changed, all of the new teams listed, did so when there was plenty of testing session available both within and out of season. They had loads of opportunity to get things right subject to resources and funding of course. I doubt any of those teams would fair so well if they were to be making their debut in the current FIA regulation regime. Lotus and Manor are still around because they have a few years of historical data about the car; chassis, tyre and aero package, to help them weather the regulation storm. Totally new teams with completely new or borrowed chassis, suspension package, aero package and no operations historical data. not to mention tyres and engine characteristics when coupled to the chassis, have their work cut out. Haas have the luck of having a Ferrari deal for supply of engine, powertrain and suspension. Their real challenge is to come up with a chassis with a reasonable downforce to reap the benefits of the Ferrari engine. It seem a tall order under the current circumstances but quite possible with good investment and excellent preparations.

Realistically, they would be duking it out at the rear with a Mercedes shod Manor, which l fully expect to be beating Haas consistently in 2016. The Manor has the advantage of having a number of years to understand their chassis, plus having a Merc engine. But Haas would have a better and experienced driver lineup than Manor which may even the odds somewhat.

It would be an astonishing achievement if the Haas team can turn up in the midfield racing the likes of Sauber, Force India and Torro Rosso. They may be racing Manor and possibly Mclaren if Honda is unable to overcome the architectural challenges of their engine in 2016. Whatever the case, l truly welcome Haas to the F1 fold and hope they at least complete 80% of the races in 2016.

[Rollo]

Sauber - 1993
Points on debut for JJ Lehto...

Sauber had won Le Mans, The World Sportscar Championship for both Drivers and Constructors in 1989 and 1990.
C9 - 1989
C11 - 1990
Mercedes-Benz proper took over the team but wasn't successful. C12 was Sauber's F1 car in 1993



Do B.A.R. count? - 1999


Er... Mercedes counts as a new team even though it acquired Brawn. Black Lotus was Renault in 2010. BAR was the same team as Tyrell except without Ken Tyrell... maybe BAR counts?

[rjbetty]

Sauber had won Le Mans, The World Sportscar Championship for both Drivers and Constructors in 1989 and 1990.
C9 - 1989
C11 - 1990
Mercedes-Benz proper took over the team but wasn't successful. C12 was Sauber's F1 car in 1993



Er... Mercedes counts as a new team even though it acquired Brawn. Black Lotus was Renault in 2010. BAR was the same team as Tyrell except without Ken Tyrell... maybe BAR counts?

Hey so what happened to the C10?

Well Sauber were a new team to F1 even though they were from sportscars, just as Toyota came from rallying and Pacific and Forti had been race and title winners in F3000.

I was never sure about BAR. I know they bought Tyrrell, but I remember as a young new fan to F1 at the time, they seemed like a new team, especially since they had built a whole new base in Brackley (now the Mercedes team!). I always thought it was more like they bought the assets of Tyrrell for their own new entry... but I dunno.

Just as I side note, I remember that Paul Stoddart bought all the rest of Tyrrell that BAR didn't want, and would have put the resources to use (somehow) at Minardi. Then he bought the 2002 Arrows chassis, incorporating the good parts and ideas of it into Minardi's 2004 car. I'm not sure how that chassis then ended up at Super Aguri - quite a journey it's had I must say.

[Rollo]

Hey so what happened to the C10?

No C10.

C10 is too hard to say in German.

[rjbetty]

This could be interesting. It's Graeme Lowdon's views on Haas' prospects. He thinks they could do pretty well.

http://planetf1.com/news/haas-could-score-straight-away/


I do worry for Manor though. They look set for their best ever season, with possibly even a few points, yet could still finish 11th, which would cut them off from payments. I hate Bernie's system so much. Let's have someone who loves Formula 1 more than money in charge.

[jens]

To put it very shortly how I understand the Haas situation.

By the looks of it they have a somewhat stronger background than any of the pre-2010 new teams. Their preparation is far more complete than the way Team Lotus/Caterham rushed onto the scene, and they do not seem to be consistently on the brink of collapse like HRT did. And they do not design an all-CFD/non-windtunnel car like Virgin did!

However, Dallara is used to feeder series spec series, and is not used to competing in Formula One. Teams like Force India, Lotus and Sauber may be underfunded, but they are professional with their limited means and I have no reason to think Dallara can match them now in designing and building an F1 car. What about Haas' budget? I doubt it is greater than the one of traditional midfield teams either, so they fit in there.

If we imagine that Mercedes has a pace-setting chassis, I think FI, Lotus and Sauber can design a chassis, which is about ~2 seconds off the pace. Evidence from current year seems to support that they have the ability within that range with their limited means. And this 2 seconds includes integration with power unit, which of course works teams have better than the customer teams.

Dallara chassis, by my modest estimation, will be at least 3 seconds off the benchmark initially. And I consider this an optimistic projection.

[jens]

I wanted to add that sometimes Haas' situation is compared to Toro Rosso... or Super Aguri, who were both B teams. However, there was an important difference. Up until and including 2009 Toro Rosso was always using entire Red Bull chassis, literally. So the difference really was the engine (hence 2008 STR was better!), and obviously the way the team understood the car and it was run in races, so RBR was somewhat more professional. There was a loophole on rules, which didn't forbid sharing chassis. Also Super Aguri used Honda's old 2006 chassis in 2007, and that's why they were so good.

Haas doesn't literally use Ferrari's chassis, and this fact is a big difference. If you have to design your own chassis, it is a huge challenge, as opposed to just purchasing a good chassis.

Of course - ever since 2010 Toro Rosso started building their own chassis, but by that time STR had had plenty of time to build up the team properly with Red Bull's funding, and gain lots of experience in co-operation.

[jens]

This could be interesting. It's Graeme Lowdon's views on Haas' prospects. He thinks they could do pretty well.

http://planetf1.com/news/haas-could-score-straight-away/
.

BAR also said they could win straightaway.:p: Not to mention McLaren-Honda was supposed to be on the podium straightaway.

Toyota was one of the very few teams, who took F1 entrance realistically. They had a full year of testing and a huge budget, but they still modestly said - we will be near the back! Well, they had a point about that one. Maybe they were too modest, and that's why they never succeeded in F1...

[jens]

Regarding new teams I wanted to talk about the Team Lotus (later Caterham) as well, which entered in 2010. They were one of my favourites teams at the time, and they looked promising. Highly rated Mike Gascoyne as technical director, and solid enough finances. I was impressed at the time that they hired Kovalainen-Trulli as a driver line-up, and didn't need a paydriver, which was better than teams like Sauber could do!

Gascoyne was hyping the team up all the time, telling they would reach midfield in no time. On paper the team looked midfield material (budget, engineers), but it never materialized. The team probably wasn't run well enough, infrastructure wasn't also quite up to scratch (old Bentley factory or what was it???) and in the end Tony Fernandes lost interest. But for me it was one more proof how damn hard it is to enter F1 and do well against experienced "club members".

[zako85]

Do not forget that this Team Lotus had lost its primary source of funding really fast. Starting with 2012, the Enstone team was the "official Lotus team", and Team Lotus became Caterham. At that point they hired Petrov, probably for his Russian sponsors, but after 2012 the team went downhill.