Hamilton vs Vettel, which is better?

[Nitrodaze]

I came across this interesting article about Hamilton and Vettel which got me thinking;

http://www.givemesport.com/467873-is-lewis-hamilton-really-better-than-sebastian-vettel

there are some drivers that hold a special place in most F1 fan's mind as unquestionably great drivers. Alonso is one such driver, though the last time he won the F1 championship was back to back 2005-2006 WDC. Apart from his amazing driving which is believed by most to be the most complete, he won his WDC beating Michael Schumacher who was by a mile the best driver in this era of F1. Which is an accomplishment to rebuff any other. Ten years on from his first WDC, Alonso has yet to win another WDC for a number of reasons. His attempt to win his 3rd WDC in a highly competitive Mclaren in 2007 was curtailed by a rapid rookie, a chap called Lewis Hamilton; remember him. What looked like a 3rd WDC was fast becoming a historic rookie WDC in his first year in F1.

Like Alonso who handed Schumacher 2 crushing defeat in 2005 and 2006, Hamilton comprehensively beat Alonso in 2007 in the same machinery and without team order or other management assistance. Incidentally, Alonso spent his defeating year demanding management support and team order to assist him in beating Hamilton, thankfully Mclaren refused to interfere in the inter-teammate racing. The ensuing commotion went on to deprive Hamilton of his first WDC in 2007 and handed Raikonen his only WDC.

Though Hamilton went on to win his 1st WDC in 2008 in a dominant year but somewhat shaky end at Brasil, he had already stamped his name firmly in the imagination of a huge majority of F1 fans as a truely gifted driver with realistic capability of being a great driver.

Vettel won 4 WDC in a very dominant REDBULL, beating Alonso in a comparatively inferior Ferrari along the way. The question that most fans have been asking was; would Vettel be able to beat Alonso or Hamilton, driving the same car? Mind you this list, use to include Raikonen, whom Vettel is comprehensively beating at the moment.

We are talking about the elite driver on the F1 grid here. The problem with Vettel image is that he has not beaten anyone of real stature [the likes of Alonso, Schumacher etc] in the same equipment while winning any of his four world titles. Though Webber was a great driver, he did not qualify as he had not won an F1 prior to pairing with Vettel. The 2014 season do not help matters as rookie Ricciado comprehensively beat him.

The real question remains; how would Vettel fair, if he were teammates with either Alonso or Hamilton?

[AndyL]

I don't have an answer to your question about Hamilton and Vettel, but I have to pull you up on this:


Like Alonso who handed Schumacher 2 crushing defeat in 2005 and 2006, Hamilton comprehensively beat Alonso in 2007

Are you sure you're not thinking of another season? Hamilton beat Alonso on countback to second place finishes in 2007. If that's a comprehensive defeat then Kimi inflicted nuclear armageddon on both of them by scoring 1 more point :)

[Nitrodaze]

I don't have an answer to your question about Hamilton and Vettel, but I have to pull you up on this:



Are you sure you're not thinking of another season? Hamilton beat Alonso on countback to second place finishes in 2007. If that's a comprehensive defeat then Kimi inflicted nuclear armageddon on both of them by scoring 1 more point :)


To be fair, saying comprehensive may be an exaggeration, but Alonso finished that year knowing that Hamilton had the measure of him. Hamilton had larger share of car problems. Gearbox problem wiped his 7 point lead to Alonso to 2 points at the end of the season. He also lost a 17 point lead to Raikonen, which handed the title to Raikonen due to retirement at the penultimate race [Chinese GP]

If you take bad luck out of it, Hamilton would have won the 2007 WDC and beat Alonso by a wider margin.

[AndyL]

OK I do have an answer. I think Hamilton would edge it over Vettel by the thinnest possible margin. I mean it's pretty close between Hamilton and Rosberg, but with 4 championships under his belt, Vettel is surely mentally stronger than Rosberg and probably faster too.

You're right that 2014 doesn't help Vettel's reputation, but on the other hand Hamilton has also had a season where things did not go his way and he was beaten by his teammate.

[AndyL]

Hi buddy, on official point difference you would be right. But you forget the race win on Hamilton that was disallowed due to Mclaren infringment of the rules.

I did forget that, you'll have to remind me which race that was. I only recall McLaren losing constructor's points, and the business in Hungary where Alonso received a grid penalty.

[henners88]

I would say Hamilton by a whisker. Both very strong World Champions with a history of wheel to wheel racing with each other. I hope we see a decent battle this season with these two.

[Nitrodaze]

OK I do have an answer. I think Hamilton would edge it over Vettel by the thinnest possible margin. I mean it's pretty close between Hamilton and Rosberg, but with 4 championships under his belt, Vettel is surely mentally stronger than Rosberg and probably faster too.

You're right that 2014 doesn't help Vettel's reputation, but on the other hand Hamilton has also had a season where things did not go his way and he was beaten by his teammate.

The DNFs that afflicted Hamilton in 2014 brought Rosberg closer to Lewis to mount a challenge for the 2014 title. Rosberg was never really close enough to Lewis's performance in 2014, Lewis's DNFs gave the false impression that it was. The 2015 season would have been a better measure but team mistakes have overshadowed things. We do not have a clean run to help us ascertain the real state of affairs. Hamilton's dominance is not properly reflected in points. Though the current point difference stands at 21 points, if Monaco was error free, the gap would have been 28 points at least. But we cannot rule out errors, mistakes and car failures in defining the performance of any driver. Luck is very much a part of winning or losing.

My point is, you should not use Rosberg as a measure to determine how Vettel would fair. I would expect Vettel to beat Rosberg in the same car.

On Hamiton been beaten by his teammate, there is no shame in being beaten by a world champion. There is a saving grace there which is not applicable when your teammate is a rookie.

[steveaki13]

I would say Hamilton in out and out pace and as an attacking driver.

However if I had a dominant car and wanted one driver to drive it. I would take Vettel. It may be dull to watch sometimes but he can dominate a season and races in a way Hamilton can't.

I always sense Lewis will make some mistakes and have a "Hungary" type race. Vettel does not seem to have those often in a dominant car. He gets in front and stays there.

So two answers for me depending on how you look at it.

[Nitrodaze]

I would say Hamilton in out and out pace and as an attacking driver.

However if I had a dominant car and wanted one driver to drive it. I would take Vettel. It may be dull to watch sometimes but he can dominate a season and races in a way Hamilton can't.

I always sense Lewis will make some mistakes and have a "Hungary" type race. Vettel does not seem to have those often in a dominant car. He gets in front and stays there.

So two answers for me depending on how you look at it.

Do you mean a dominant car with a pit wall [team] that makes no mistakes or simply a dominant car regardless of the mistakes of the pitwall [team]?

[The Black Knight]

I don't rate Vettel nearly on Hamilton's level and I don't think he could live with Hamilton's pace over the course of a season. Vettel looks great out front when leading because he never has a teammate that is able to pressure him in a dominant car, like a very capable Rosberg to Hammy, until Danny in a 3 race winning albeit not so dominant car last year.

I remember USA 2012 where Hammy beat and passed Vettel on one of the few weekends they McLaren had a car that could challenge him. Or Canada 2011 where he cracked on the final lap. Vettel looks better because he was never challenged by a capable teammate until last year where, to be honest, I think his true level was shown up that he was not the best driver on the grid and definitely not worth 4 WDC's. A true great wouldn't have been so conclusively beaten like he was last year.

As for Hamilton 2011, even in 2011, he had an off last half of season in particular. True it shouldn't had happened but he wasn't comprehensively beaten either and still won a couple of races, unlike Vettel, whom wasn't even close last year. Plus 2011 was clearly an off year for Hamilton & that shows in that he beat Button the other two years they were teammates. I don't personally feel that is the case with Vettel last year, I just think he was beaten by the better driver.

[kfzmeister]

Tell you what, Vettel and Hamilton in the same team, i would like to see! I think it would be a nazty dogfight all season. Sorta like ROS and HAM last year, without VET backing down like the puss that ROS is! VET ego is huuuuge and he would fight dirty (like the claim that he immediately contacted his lawyers after MULTI 21!).
It would be like the two Mercedes boys in Spa, except all year long!
I could give you my opinion on who would win that year, but honestly who really knows!
#FuerzaALO!

[Rollo]

Vettel won 4 WDC in a very dominant REDBULL, beating Alonso in a comparatively inferior Ferrari along the way. The question that most fans have been asking was; would Vettel be able to beat Alonso or Hamilton, driving the same car? Mind you this list, use to include Raikonen, whom Vettel is comprehensively beating at the moment.
...
The real question remains; how would Vettel fair, if he were teammates with either Alonso or Hamilton?

Alonso has come 2nd to Vettel thrice in cars that were relatively rubbish. The 2012 season though give the answer away for me though. In 2012, Alonso scored no pole positions and no fastest laps yet still scored 3 GP wins and 2nd in the title.
Alonso is better than Vettel at getting something from the car.

I think:
Hamilton > Alonso > Vettel > Raikkonen.

[rjbetty]

Uhoh well this is a proper can of worms now released isn't it?

Not an easy one, totally depends what you mean by 'better'. I think when Hamilton is on form he's the best out there, faster than Alonso, and faster than Vettel too. I would like to see what an on-fire Grosjean would achieve though.

Totally agree with Steveaki. If I had a dominant car, I would give it to Vettel first rather than Hamilton. If 'better' means who scores the most points, I would put Vettel.

However, Black Knight makes a totally rad claim which I'm on board with, is that Vettel under pressure might not lok so hot and metronomic. I believe Hamilton has been paired with much higher-calibre team-mates than Seb.

Look who Vettel has had: Liuzzi, Bourdais, Webber (who was subjugated by RB and aging in F1 terms), a completely past-it Kimi (this is why he wanted him at Red Bull for 2014)... and Ricciardo. Only one really good team-mate (who was in decent circumstances) and look what happened.

Hamilton however has had Alonso(!), the underrated imo Kovalainen, Button in his absolute prime, and Rosberg in his absolute prime years too...

It's easy to forget that all this Pirelli DRS saving everything crap probably plays against Hamilton more than most drivers, just look at Webber post 2010, yet Hamilton still makes a great case for being the best.

Hamilton has always seemed more likely to mess up, but he has always had tougher team-mates who will punish any slip much more.

Then again Hamilton has never been comprehensively outperformed as Vettel was in 2014. Button did score more points than him in 2011, and even outqualified Lewis 6 times out of 19, but we can see that though it was Lewis' fault a lot of points were lost, it was not due to being 'outperformed'.

Worth noting that 2011 was Button's best ever season while simultaneously being Lewis' absolute worst, and he only lost 2nd in the championship due to his own meltdown, as opposed to simply not being good enough.

If they were team-mates I'd suggest Hamilton would definitely have higher highs and be the fastest, but Vettel would play the percentage game a la Nick Heidfeld) and maybe come out with more points.

[rjbetty]

Alonso has come 2nd to Vettel thrice in cars that were relatively rubbish. The 2012 season though give the answer away for me though. In 2012, Alonso scored no pole positions and no fastest laps yet still scored 3 GP wins and 2nd in the title.
Alonso is better than Vettel at getting something from the car.

I think:
Hamilton > Alonso > Vettel > Raikkonen.
I think Alonso was on pole at Britain and Germany in 2012, both being wet. I agree though that there's no way that Alonso wasn't better than Vettel in both 2010 and 2012. I've noticed people criticising Alonso for throwing away those titles while saying Seb did the better job. It's interesting how there can be so many different viewpoints, and the way I've always tried to be is to try and understand and see what I'm missing. However over time, I have come to realise those who criticise Alonso in this example almost all seem to support Vettel. Some of you won't like that but I feel it needs to be said. Please point out if I am getting it wrong. So now I'm a bit more cynical. I also noticed they're the ones who are peddling this blaming Alonso for Ferrari's recent poor cars, which just makes me SMH.



I would like to see Vettel still be sunny and positive at Ferrari if he had to have the 5 years that Fernando just had - and win those 2 titles he 'lost' - THEN I will give Seb credit as being better :)

[Mia 01]

In my subjective opinion Sebastian is the best F1 driver on the current grid.

[rjbetty]

In my subjective opinion Sebastian is the best F1 driver on the current grid.

It's good that we have so many top drivers these days and it's so close between them, too close to call. Back in my early F1 years it was just Michael then the rest.

[Nitrodaze]

In my subjective opinion Sebastian is the best F1 driver on the current grid.

Mia, you have to say why, even if your reason is you have the hots for him.

[Nitrodaze]

It's good that we have so many top drivers these days and it's so close between them, too close to call. Back in my early F1 years it was just Michael then the rest.

I don't think there has ever been a time where you have 5 world champions racing in the same season in F1. You have to spare a thought for drivers like Ricciado, Grosjean, Bottas and Hulkenberg, who are trying to breakthrough these champions to establish themselves as champions. Drivers like Magnussen,Verstapenn, Sainz and Nazr are on a different curve to these World Champions. The future you might say.

[Nitrodaze]

Tell you what, Vettel and Hamilton in the same team, i would like to see! I think it would be a nazty dogfight all season.

A la Mclaren 2007. Two massive egos in the same team would always produce fireworks, bloody noses and high blood pressure for the operation manager. But would certainly have the fans at the edge of their seats salivating at the dogfight unfolding through the season. The Webber-Vettel dog fight was fun but not on par with Rosberg-Hamilton 2014, because there was some level favoritism at Redbull to Vettels benefit. Hence it is fair to say the real inter-teammate dogfight since 2007 was Rosberg-Hamilton 2014 where there was real parity of support by the team for both drivers.

We have to give credit to Mclaren and Mercedes for this exemplary even handedness to their drivers, allowing them to race each other. Some may argue that it cost Mclaren the WDC in 2007, that said, an unfair outcome would have transpired.

I think this also shows the difference in the types of F1 champions there are. The champions that would win their title at the expense of their teammate. And those that would take on anyone to win their title; including their teammate.

The first category of champions rely heavily on full team support and like to be seen as the number one driver. And the teammate is there to support the WCC and WDC campaign. Not challenge but to pick spare points in 2nd place. I think some may say Schumacher-Barrichello seasons at Ferrari are examples of this. Others may suggest that Alonso-Fisichella or Vettel-Webber are another examples.

In recent times, the only drivers l can think of that fall into the second category are Hamilton and Raikonen.

These category can be extended to teams as well l think. On paper, it would seem Ferrari always throw their weight behind the driver most likely to win the WDC. Some may argue that this is not the case, but Ferrari only backs a driver they have a love affair with; like Schumacher and now Vettel. Otherwise, Irvine would have won a WDC for Ferrari. There are plenty of grounds for discussion here.

[Mintexmemory]

I don't think there has ever been a time where you have 5 world champions racing in the same season in F1. You have to spare a thought for drivers like Ricciado, Grosjean, Bottas and Hulkenberg, who are trying to breakthrough these champions to establish themselves as champions. Drivers like Magnussen,Verstapenn, Sainz and Nazr are on a different curve to these World Champions. The future you might say.

1968 Clark, Hill, Hulme, Brabham, Surtees, with the next 2 WDCs also competing; Stewart and Rindt. I don't see any of the also rans in this field being WDC in the next 2 years, even Whiny Nick

[Nitrodaze]

1968 Clark, Hill, Hulme, Brabham, Surtees, with the next 2 WDCs also competing; Stewart and Rindt. I don't see any of the also rans in this field being WDC in the next 2 years, even Whiny Nick

Nice one buddy!

I suppose Jackie Stewart proves it is possible to breakthrough a line of World champions to become a champion. But Stewart was someone special. Rindt is a special case though. Hence it is possible. So who is likely to be the next new champion?

My money is on Ricciado if redbull can find a decent engine. Or Bottas if he moves to Ferrari and Ferrari lets him race Vettel fair and square. In reality most unlikely.

Dark horses are Kyviat, Verstapenn, Magnussen. In my opinion, you may see things differently of course.

[Rollo]

I don't think there has ever been a time where you have 5 world champions racing in the same season in F1.

1970 - Jackie Stewart, Jack Brabham, Graham Hill, John Surtees and Denny Hulme.
2011 - Sebastian Vettel, Lewis Hamilton, Jenson Button, Fernando Alonso and Michael Schumacher.

1985 - Niki Lauda, Keke Rosberg, Nelson Piquet, Alan Jones... maybe extra if you want to include Alain Prost who won in 1985, Ayrton Senna and Nigel Mansell.

[Big Ben]

My objective opinion is that my favorite driver is better than your favorite driver

[Mia 01]

Is it so. Well Sebastian has fore WDC:s under his belt and more is comming if he gots a competitive car from Ferrari. Most important, he is Kimis best friend on the grid.

[rjbetty]

1970 - Jackie Stewart, Jack Brabham, Graham Hill, John Surtees and Denny Hulme.
2011 - Sebastian Vettel, Lewis Hamilton, Jenson Button, Fernando Alonso and Michael Schumacher.

1985 - Niki Lauda, Keke Rosberg, Nelson Piquet, Alan Jones... maybe extra if you want to include Alain Prost who won in 1985, Ayrton Senna and Nigel Mansell.

We also had the much lauded Six World Champions in 2012!

[Nitrodaze]

I have taken the trouble to google it and l concede the point. 2012 with schumi in the Mercedes, how did l forget that one?

[jens]

Vettel has some weakness in adapting to some cars, like the 2014 one or the early 2012. But when he "on song", which he is most of the time (2015, 13, 11, etc), he in my book is on par with Alonso and Hamilton. This season is only reinforcing the view. But you can say that Vettel's "lows" are lower than Alonso/Hamilton, which could well be right by the career evidence so far.