The most up to date list of F1 teams that will never win any titles again

[zako85]

1. McLaren
2. Lotus
3. Williams
4. Red Bull (not yet confirmed)

Are there any other teams missing from the list?

[gm99]

I'm really not sure about McLaren - they have been down before (late 1970s/early 1980s, mid-1990s), only to bounce back with some of the most dominating cars F1 has ever seen (1988/89 McLaren-Honda; 1998/1999 McLaren-Mercedes). 2018 could well be their year ;)

[jens]

Never? Not even in 30 years time? Ouch! :p:

Who knows, even Tyrrell may win a title in 30 years time! Just like Lotus has been reincarnated under new ownership and had more than a decent car in 2012-2013.

Generally predicting long-term is very hard. That's an understatement. Actually it's impossible. I guess when a decade ago Renault, Ferrari and McLaren were competing for titles, not many thought the next decade would be competely wiped by Red Bull Racing and Mercedes with its own team, leaving legendary teams like Ferrari or McLaren titleless!

For all we know, Monster Energy Drinks might buy a team one day in attempt to replicate Red Bull, and get lots of titles in the 2020s.

So you could say that even Ferrari may never win another title. There certainly was a period, when they didn't win a WCC for 16 years or a WDC for 21 years.

Other than that... who knows.:p:

[AAReagles]

Never?

Who knows, even Tyrrell may win a title in 30 years time! Just like Lotus has been reincarnated under new ownership and had more than a decent car in 2012-2013..

So you could say that even Ferrari may never win another title. There certainly was a period, when they didn't win a WCC for 16 years or a WDC for 21 years.

Or Brabham going on 48 years now for WCC. Should've won in 1981 and 1983, but they were just a one-car team then.

What's Alfa-Romeo?... 64-65 years now?

[Rollo]

Mercedes-Benz went 57 years between their Grand Prix victories in Italy and then China.


Or Brabham going on 48 years now for WCC. Should've won in 1981 and 1983, but they were just a one-car team then.


Wait what?

1981 - Piquet / Rebaque
1983 - Piquet / Patrese

I think you'll find that Patrese won the 1983 Seff Effricen Grand Prix. That'd be even more amazing in a car that didn't actually exist.

[rjbetty]

So who do we think might win the constructors titles in the next 10 years then?

Mercedes will get this one, and probably next year too.

Maybe Ferrari? Will Allison and the tech team get them past Mercedes or will they plateau a bit, since the cars led by him at Enstone 2005-2006 and 2012-2013, though very good were possibly a little short of the absolute best, especially the latter two.

I guess Ferrari will edge closer next year, but I can see them concentrating on 2017 and the new rules early next year.

What about McLaren? They are doing terribly right now. I didn't panic at their low starting point but I didn't imagine they would still be clear 9th best at halfway. Even so, I still don't think it's time to write them off forever yet. They could still make a good turnaround next year. I mean who would have thought Ferrari would do so well before winter testing this year, or Williams at the same time in 2014? Even one year can make a big difference.

Mercedes should still be there in 2017 if their tech team is stable (though a few guys left already, it seems to take up to a couple of years for tech people additions and losses to take full effect). They still have big resources and money.

Lets not completely write Red Bull off. There has been talk they could bag a Merc engine next year, but then again they would be controlled as a customer and probably not be too far ahead of Williams. They have also lost Newey and his deputy Prodromou.

Lotus/Enstone have lost too many people and resources. I can't see them challenging soon, unless Renault buy them, start investing and get the new rules right.

Williams - no. Would need more people and resources to beat Merc with the same engine.

That leaves Force India, Toro Rosso, Sauber, Manor and Haas. A LOT can change in 10 years.

I personally think the 2022-2023 championships will be a walkover for Monster (lol).

[AAReagles]

Wait what?

1981 - Piquet / Rebaque
1983 - Piquet / Patrese....

Like I said, a one-car team... :p

[anfield5]

1. McLaren
2. Lotus
3. Williams
4. Red Bull (not yet confirmed)

Are there any other teams missing from the list?

Have to completely disagree with three of four of these. F1 is cyclic and teams always ebb and surge, it is the way of things.

McLaren hve been down before and come back strong. Honda will succeed with their power unit, they in all honesty entered F1 a year before they were ready and always intended to use this season as a development and learning year, remember the ridiculous rules have ensured that they can do less development than other manufacturers, so they have had no chance to catch up.

Lotus can't win another title mainly because they haven't existed since 1994. By this reasoning Brabham wont win again either. The Enstone black painted team has nothing to do with Lotus and has never won a title as Lotus, although they did win two as Renault (that wasn't really Renault a decade ago). The naming of the black team as Lotus is nothing more than a marketing ploy to attract fans and money, Proton sponsor the team and they use their Lotus branding on it. It would be like calling Williams Martini racing.

Speaking of Williams, they can find their way back to the very front. All they need to do is find a better tactical brain to call the tactics and design a car that works well in high downforce mode. Everything else is there.

Red Bull came from no where to dominate with well designed cars and a decent engine from Renault. Currently the Renault half of the team is poor and with Adrian Newey stepping back from the lead design role, this has gone backwards. IF Red Bull stay as RedBull there is no reason why they can't rediscover their edge, especially if the Mercedes/Aston Martin deal actually happens

[AAReagles]

... I personally think that the 2022-2023 championships will be a walkover for Monster. (lol)

My bet would be on the energy drink (future team?) appropriately named Redline.

Careful with that stuff btw. There's a reason why truckers refer to it as 'liquid crank'. It's a buck more than Monster, w/less ounces to drink. But it WILL keep you awake :eek:... and give you an attitude if you drink too much of it - over half a bottle (more than 4 oz.).

That explains why you need a magnifying glass to read the numerous warnings on the label; everything from being pregnant to having a diagnosed history of mental health issues (which would include just about everyone these days).

[AndyL]

The Enstone black painted team has nothing to do with Lotus and has never won a title as Lotus, although they did win two as Renault (that wasn't really Renault a decade ago)

And don't forget the two as Benetton a decade before that... they are about due again :)

[anfield5]

And don't forget the two as Benetton a decade before that... they are about due again :)

Quite right Andy, I didn't mention Benetton because it was at the time actually Benetton, rather than pretending to be something that it wasn't, like, say Lotus for example

[Rollo]

Quite right Andy, I didn't mention Benetton because it was at the time actually Benetton, rather than pretending to be something that it wasn't, like, say Lotus for example

You mean Toleman?

[anfield5]

You mean Toleman?
No because Benetton baught the Toleman team and called it Benetton, this is different than Genii buying it and calling it Lotus

[kfzmeister]

I don't see how you can predict any of these, unless you have a crystal ball (and we know you don't have one of those!)
Not sure i get the point of this thread.

[zako85]

I don't see how you can predict any of these, unless you have a crystal ball (and we know you don't have one of those!)
Not sure i get the point of this thread.

That's right. No prosthetic balls so far.

[AAReagles]

I don't see how you can predict any of these... Not sure i get the point of this thread.
Well it's a filler thread, performing what it's designed to do; keep the forum active until the next race (thread) comes along so we all can complain again. Good topic with good, if not interesting, responses.

Only complaint I got is that we don't have a topic/thread of Ecclestone being pranked like the disgraced FIFA President Sepp Blatter was during a press conference when comedian Simon Brodkin, who plays the character Lee Nelson, entered the room and threw cash at him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pqO6tK8_Wg

Would have loved to have seen what the comments would have been here, had it been Bernie on the receiving end instead.

[N. Jones]

I don't know who put this up but they are bonkers. Sports are unpredictable.

[AAReagles]

... with the 2015 season being excluded of course. :dozey: :burn:

[jens]

... with the 2015 season being excluded of course. :dozey: :burn:

To be honest, I think Mercedes will win the 2016 season as well. There, I made a prediction! :p: And then in 2017 with possibly new regulations we will see.:p:

[kfzmeister]

To be honest, I think Mercedes will win the 2016 season as well. There, I made a prediction! :p: And then in 2017 with possibly new regulations we will see.:p:

What tickles me about this is how will Honda fit in once they work out all their issues. I know right now is not the ideal condition, but they will figure things out at some point. Once, they do, how will they stack up to the rest?
One can't expect for them to remain in this state forever, right?

[AAReagles]

Is that a prediction you're making? :p

[kfzmeister]

Patiently remaining hopeful.....

[Storm]

...Honda
One can't expect for them to remain in this state forever, right?


We thought that about Toyota too back in the early 2000s :s:erm:

[jens]

Well, at least Alonso now knows how Jacques Villeneuve felt in 1999. "Welcome to the club!"

At least in BAR's defence - they had old outdated Supertec engines in '99, and once BAR got all-new Honda engines (sounds familiar?) for 2000 they were firmly in upper midfield scoring consistent points.

Yeah, Honda should have the ability to be at least in midfield. Let's say where currently Red Bull-Renault is. Though Red Bull (and Renault) itself may easily improve as well. Reaching top level and podiums is another matter though. Even reaching BMW Sauber level (twice third in WCC) takes some doing.

But usually in F1 there are only 1-2 teams doing most of the winning at the time, and others battling only for scraps. The only question is - who will these be at any period of time?!

[Nitrodaze]

Yeah, Honda should have the ability to be at least in midfield. Let's say where currently Red Bull-Renault is.

I dont think the Honda engine is running at full power yet. Hence, Mclaren have not been able to unleash the full potential of the chassis. Once they sort out the reliability issues, they would easily be in the mix well into the top end of the midfield. How far up the order is yet to be seen. Mclaren-Honda could well be a surprise in 2016.

Things change very quickly in F1. Who ever thought Mercedes would ever beat Redbull to be world champions a few years back? I remember all that talk about Hamilton's move to Mercedes being daft. Here we are, Mercedes is king, Hamilton has won his 2nd drivers championship with Mercedes and most cannot see Maclaren-Honda ever winning a championship.

[jens]

I think Hamilton's move at the time made sense, because everyone knew new engine regulations would come in 2014, and that works teams would have an edge. Of course fans didn't grasp it, but I think it seemed an obvious argument to insiders. So there was a game-changer, which suited Mercedes, even if no-one could perfectly predict, how good Mercedes could be, and of course nobody expected McLaren to fall off so badly.

So, what are the game-changers in 2017 technical regulations?

[Nitrodaze]

So, what are the game-changers in 2017 technical regulations?
It would depend on the conclusion from the talks about the future of F1. Based on some of the things that has been proposed so far, the status quo at the sharp end is looking like it is going to remain the same, with Ferrari edging much closer or on par with Mercedes. The typical F1 dominance cycle seems typically 4 to 6 years. And the rate at which Ferrari is catching the Mercedes and the rate of mistakes that Mercedes is doing, it probably may be less than 4 years of dominance. They may be marginally ahead in 2016, but l would expect Ferrari to be fully on par with the Merc in 2017 with Mclaren-Honda in the mix as well. We have to keep an eye on Redbull which could also storm to the front if Renault gives them a decent engine.

This is also more likely because of the reduced pre-season testing, which is only 8 days and no in-season testing.

The Redbull - Renault affair seem to be on its last leg. Particularly with the likelihood that Renault may be enticed to run their own works team. The Redbull team are unlikely to get the cream of the engines it has enjoyed in the past should Renault start their own team, hence they may be forced to look for engine elsewhere and may have a Mclaren-Honda experience where they disappear to the back of the grid while they transition to a new engine supplier.

That said, everyone is quietly expecting a change at the front with Ferrari or possibly Maclaren-Honda stealing the show. It would take something special for this to happen and may depend on the changes introduced to specifications for 2017.

[kfzmeister]

So, what are the game-changers in 2017 technical regulations?

This is what i found from as recently as early July of this year:


....The full list of measures outlined by the FIA is as follows: "Increased restrictions on driver aids and coaching received unanimous support and will be rapidly implemented, starting from this year's Belgian Grand Prix - with a particular emphasis on race starts - and in 2016. These measures will bring back the driver in full control of the car, enhancing races excitement and unpredictability.

"Following the Austrian GP, an overhaul of the power unit penalties has been unanimously agreed and will be submitted to the F1 Commission via an express fax vote for an adoption at the World Motor Sport Council in Mexico City next week, together with changes to the exhaust system that will improve engine noise for 2016.

"Furthermore, it was agreed to allow an extra power unit per driver in the first year to any new manufacturer entering the championship and, for the sake of fairness, the measure will apply retroactively to Honda for the 2015 season.
Formula 1 title fight heads to Hamilton's stomping grounds
Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team

"Mandate has been given to the FIA and FOM to propose a comprehensive set of measures for power unit development and cost of supply, including full review of the token system, increase in race fuel allowance, limits on the usage of engine dynamometers etc.

"Increased freedom of choice for tire compounds has been confirmed and the modalities are being finalized with Pirelli for 2016.

"A new set of regulations aimed at achieving faster and more aggressive looking cars for 2017, to include wider cars and wheels, new wings and floor shape and significantly increased aerodynamic downforce has been outlined and is currently being assessed by the teams.

"Several exciting and innovative changes to the qualifying and race weekend formats have also been discussed and are being evaluated by FIA and FOM for a 2016 introduction."

[Nitrodaze]

"A new set of regulations aimed at achieving faster and more aggressive looking cars for 2017, to include wider cars and wheels, new wings and floor shape and significantly increased aerodynamic downforce has been outlined and is currently being assessed by the teams.
Great post kfzmeister. It would seem 2017 is about the quality of the aero package each team can muster. the engine differentiation in performance would remain with Merc and Ferrari, hopefully Honda possibly producing the main entertainment. Chassis efficiency is going to be key.

It would be great if most of the regulations introduced in 2016 carry through to 2107 as well, particularly restriction on driver aid and tyre choice for teams. With the new tyre regulations for 2017 of wider tyres etc, it is looking like Michelin may be the tyre supplier for 2017. If you ask for a honest opinion from the drivers, l am sure most would say they quietly dislike the Pirelli tyres.
A new era of F1 is about to unfold in 2017. This would be great l think. It would be like the old times of wider cars, wider fat tyres, turbo engine and break neck raw speed. Now that is F1!

[jens]

Aerodynamics important in the 2017 regs?
Then Red Bull must find a way to entice Newey back to full-time action then... Though James Key in the Toro Rosso seems pretty good too.

[zako85]

I think Hamilton's move at the time made sense, because everyone knew new engine regulations would come in 2014, and that works teams would have an edge.

How could anyone know in advance that the new engine regulations would favor works teams? In my opinion, what's holding the rest of teams right now is not the chassis integration but the fact that Mercedes massively over-invested into the engine development, knowing that once 2014 season starts nobody is allowed to make significant changes to engine parts. It was a gamble, but it paid. In theory, Renault and Ferrari know what they need to change right now, but their hands are tied. In other words, Mercedes won simply by the old trick of over-spending. But how could Hamilton know about that back in 2012, the time when the Mercedes board of directors was seriously considering pulling out of sport? In my opinion, Hamilton simply got tired of being part of an under-performing McLaren team, just like Alonso got tired of being part of Ferrari after 2013. Since 2008, the only time the McLaren team got close to winning a driver championship was in 2010. After that there was a downhill trajectory. A bit of wins in 2011 and 2012. No podiums in 2013, terrible 2014 year (even with Mercedes engine), and even worse 2015 season. So I don't think that Hamilton saw a writing on the wall that said "factory teams will win". I think he saw the writing on the wall that said "McLaren is going down". Too bad Alonso didn't see that.

[rjbetty]

I think Hamilton's move at the time made sense, because everyone knew new engine regulations would come in 2014, and that works teams would have an edge. Of course fans didn't grasp it, but I think it seemed an obvious argument to insiders. So there was a game-changer, which suited Mercedes, even if no-one could perfectly predict, how good Mercedes could be, and of course nobody expected McLaren to fall off so badly.

I'm not sure I agree too much with this one, cos at the time Hamilton was definitely considered a bit of a fool by the majority of media and fans, including if I'm honest, by me. Even though we knew 2014 was coming, there was no guarantee at all that they'd even improve much. McLaren were considered the fastest car at the time (even though I think on average they were equal with Red Bull in quali and slower in the race, while also less reliable and less well-run) and there was no reason to see that change.

And as someone said, Merc were considering pulling out at the time. I think it was a very brave move by Hamilton, as he was in no way forced to leave his team. It was entirely his own free choice. To me it was as impressive as if Vettel had left Red Bull for Ferrari between 2011-2013 rather than after 2014.

[Nitrodaze]

In other words, Mercedes won simply by the old trick of over-spending. But how could Hamilton know about that back in 2012, the time when the Mercedes board of directors was seriously considering pulling out of sport? In my opinion, Hamilton simply got tired of being part of an under-performing McLaren team, just like Alonso got tired of being part of Ferrari after 2013.

It is an exaggeration to say Mercedes over-spent on engine. They started their preparation, two years ahead of the rest of the other engine manufacturers. Carefully honing their design for the new 1.6cc engine spec. And it paid off.

I don't think for a moment that Hamilton just blindly jumped ship to Mercedes because he was fed up with the Mclaren management. Though, we cannot rule out the disparity that developed between the management and Hamilton leading into 2012 and 2013. While the Mclaren operation was falling short of its promise, Hamilton was enticed by the words of three time champion Niki Lauda, who explained the Mercedes engine program to Lewis and stressed that Mercedes would give him his next WDC title with their new engine.
It was definitely a gamble similar to the promise that Alonso is facing at the moment. Also pertinent to his decision making process was the fact that Mclaren would not defeat Mercedes with a Mercedes engine. A fact that has led Mclaren to Honda's door.
The decisions made by Hamilton, Alonso and Vettel were calculated gambles which has paid off for Hamilton and is paying off for Vettel. We are yet to see if it would pay off for Alonso. Though Alonso's departure from Ferrari was taken under some red mist moment, it would seem. Unlike Hamilton's move from Mclaren which subsequently dropped down the grid order with Hamilton's departure, the Ferrari seem to be going on from strength to strength. Which suggests that Alonso's departure from Ferrari may be somewhat premature. I say "may be" because Ferrari are currently where they were when Alonso's frustration was becoming evident in 2012-2013. We would really say Alonso got it wrong, only after Ferrari wins a WCC and/or WDC. Similarly, we can only say Alonso got it right if he wins a WDC with the Mclaren-Honda in 2017 or 2018 at the latest.

[Nitrodaze]

Aerodynamics important in the 2017 regs?
Then Red Bull must find a way to entice Newey back to full-time action then... Though James Key in the Toro Rosso seems pretty good too.
I think they would need more than just Newey in 2017. They may also need a new engine supplier. if they can, they should try to get the Audi engine into the Redbull, then they would really have a chance to mount a strong bid for the sharp end.

[jens]

I am sure Hamilton was tired of McLaren, just like Vettel was tired of Red Bull and wanted to leave/spice up life with a new challenge. But Mercedes wasn't a blind choice. It wasn't like Hamilton joined Sauber or Force India! He joined a big team with potential. And somewhat unlike current McLaren, Mercedes showed a fair amount of potential. They already got a race win in 2012, and were in contention at Monaco. The problem for Merc at the time was bad tyre management, which dropped them backwards in races, but in qualifying they were fast.

2012 was already a third year into Mercedes "re-building" era, as opposed to first year of current McLaren-Honda. Ross Brawn had hired lots of tech staff, including Aldo Costa and others, who all joined during 2011-12. Red Bull was ruling the era, but I think it came obvious that if 2014 saw any change in competitive order and if anyone can push Red Bull off the perch, it was going to be either Ferrari or Mercedes. Not some underfunded privateer team. Retrospectively - Mercedes got it right, Ferrari didn't. But it was basically the choice between the three (RBR, Merc, Ferr) before 2014 if you wanted to have a shot at the championship. And gamble, which team would get it 'right'.

[jens]

Which suggests that Alonso's departure from Ferrari may be somewhat premature. I say "may be" because Ferrari are currently where they were when Alonso's frustration was becoming evident in 2012-2013. We would really say Alonso got it wrong, only after Ferrari wins a WCC and/or WDC. Similarly, we can only say Alonso got it right if he wins a WDC with the Mclaren-Honda in 2017 or 2018 at the latest.

Well, yeah regarding Ferrari. It is now an interesting re-start for them, because they have an all-new management from 2014/15. Starting with Marchionne (in place of di Montezemolo), and then others. I guess we have to give a few years to see, how they really gel together. And 2017 regs will be a test for the new management. On a personal level I sort of like Arrivabene, but this is no guarantee to succeess. What they really manage to do, time will tell.

[jens]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/120287

I have a heavy suspicion this will prevent McLaren-Honda from succeeding for some time in F1. Toyota's quest in F1 was also somewhat conservative, and they struggled to keep up with the development pace of rivals.

In my view, to truly succeed in something as high profile as F1, you must employ the best specialists of the world. And every pattern of competition we have seen in F1 for a while, seems to confirm this. Even Ferrari has been too 'conservative' in the post-Todt era.

[Nitrodaze]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/120287

I have a heavy suspicion this will prevent McLaren-Honda from succeeding for some time in F1. Toyota's quest in F1 was also somewhat conservative, and they struggled to keep up with the development pace of rivals.

In my view, to truly succeed in something as high profile as F1, you must employ the best specialists of the world. And every pattern of competition we have seen in F1 for a while, seems to confirm this. Even Ferrari has been too 'conservative' in the post-Todt era.

It is clearly disappointing to read of Honda's narrow mindedness in this day and age. But, clearly there is more to it. It is possible that they are seeking to protect novel designs in the engine by keeping the circle tight. That said, this approach does not imply Honda would be unable to produce an engine that could compete at the front. I admit that it would be a quicker advancement if they took on board engineers that has worked with the current regulation in top teams. But it is not enough to dismiss them.

What gets me of Aria's statement is his statement of difference in culture as a barrier for employing non-japanese staff. This is a very prejuicial view which suggest that the japanese firms are unable to work with non-japanese people for difference in culture. Hence, it would suggest that Honda as a company has not reached diversity in its organisational culture which is socially quite backward by today's standard. And it underlines McNish's blog of his experience of working for Honda many years ago.
While it is disappointing to hear this, it does not mean that they are unable to produce a quality fast engine, probably not in the timeframe that Mclaren would require. A split of Mclaren from Honda would be bad for both parties as Mclaren has to find another supplier and go through the pain again. It could be quite damaging to Honda's reputation within F1 world. As they would be departing as a company with separatist mentality, difficult to work with and crap engine manufacturers.
Honda would be seen as a spent force in the top end of motor sport. They are not winning anything anywhere else that matters at the moment, hence this would easily pose a real problem for them.
It is quite interesting when you look back and see that Honda was struggling with their own failing F1 team which incidentally won the 2009 WCC and WDC championship with the Honda chassis after the Honda engine was replaced with the Mercedes engine. Incidentally, the very engine that they are currently struggling to match on horsepower.
Hence, l think psychologically, this partnership of Honda with Mclaren is a very important test for Honda to show that they can produce as good an engine as Mercedes and could have won the 2009 championship if they had stayed for the 2009 season. The story at the moment is, their engine in 2008 was crap and held back a brilliant chassis capable of winning a WCC which the Mercedes engine proved to be the case. They have to set this straight and they know it. Hence this is why l think that Honda is or should be on a mission to produce an engine that could propel the Mclaren chassis to the front of the grid. Failing to do so would mean Honda at F1 level are spent technological force, not good enough to compete at the sharp end of the premier class of motorsport.

[Nitrodaze]

Interesting turn of events in the Mclaren-Honda saga. Honda's Aria is now saying that the Mclaren chassis is not showing the real capability of the Honda engine which Honda believes to be faster than the Renault engine. It looks like mud slinging to me.

see :- http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/120337



Arai suggested the limitations of the MP4-30, which McLaren has updated continuously over the course of the season, masked Honda's engine performance in Hungary, where Arai said the unit was running at full power.

[AndyL]

Interesting turn of events in the Mclaren-Honda saga. Honda's Aria is now saying that the Mclaren chassis is not showing the real capability of the Honda engine which Honda believes to be faster than the Renault engine. It looks like mud slinging to me.

see :- http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/120337

It doesn't look so much like mud slinging if you ignore the journalist attempting to put the most sensational possible spin on it, and just read the direct quotes. The chassis is behind in development because of the lack of running caused by unreliability, is how I would paraphrase the actual quotes from Arai they've put under the heading "CHASSIS HIDING GAINS". Hardly attempting to divert blame.

[Nitrodaze]

It doesn't look so much like mud slinging if you ignore the journalist attempting to put the most sensational possible spin on it, and just read the direct quotes. The chassis is behind in development because of the lack of running caused by unreliability, is how I would paraphrase the actual quotes from Arai they've put under the heading "CHASSIS HIDING GAINS". Hardly attempting to divert blame.
I agree with you AndyL, this is the sensible way to look at it. But l am having serious doubts in believing that the Honda engine is faster than the current Renault engine. I am not sure how Arai arrived at that one. It may be the case that the Honda engine now has more horsepower than the Renault engine. If that is the case, then that would be enough evidence that the chassis is not quite at its optimum.
I think, everyone at Mclaren would be very comfortable with that. It is up to the aerodynamicist to find the time in the chassis. We could be seeing some improvement in the Mclaren-Honda's pace in the near future. Reliability allowing ofcourse.

[Nitrodaze]

Based on the sector times at SPA, it would seem Honda's Aria has got his numbers wrong. It is looking like engine and not chassis that is below par. It would also seem that the Honda engine is no where near as fast as the Renault engine either, so l really wonder what Aria is playing at.