King Seb and his invisible suit .

[Bagwan]

It seems that Seb had his lawyers involved when Red Bull was thinking of punishment regarding his not obeying orders in the "multi-21" scandal .

That's according to Webber , in his tell-all book .

If it's true , I have a hard time figuring out how they could trust him to work for them at all .
Brutal , weaselly behavior .

I was starting to like Seb , too .
But now I hope the black cloud over Kimi floats above Vettel instead .

[henners88]

I think teams need to tighten their contracts because if a driver can threaten to sue over a team order, something is very wrong. It undermines the whole superiority of a team and suggests a driver can think they are bigger than the team that employs them.

I wonder if Ferrari are reading through Sebastian's current contract hoping they've got everything covered? lol. Considering how loyal Red Bull appeared to be to Seb for so long, it's odd how he chose this route. I wonder if Seb actually left Red Bull on his terms or did they put all the support behind Daniel without giving him the option to re-new his contract? Makes you wonder. :)

[anfield5]

But is it treu? It is in a book written by the other driver in the Multi21gate thing and I am betting there is a disclaimer written into the novel as well?

[kfzmeister]

I, for one, will purchase Webber's book, just to read about their relationship. A bunch of details have already been leaked and it sound juicy to me, since i'm not a fan of the German.

Webber claims that Seb came up to him during the Malaysia podium and said that he needed to talk to Mark and that he really f*%2ed up. Mark told him that they would discuss it the next race weekend. Before the next race weekend, the Seb/ lawyer letter showed up at RB informing them that in case they decided to punish Seb for Multi 21, it was against his contract to exercise team orders. So, not only did RB do nothing, but the next time Seb saw Mark, he told him that he had no regrets and that he respected him as a racer, but not as a person.

What a thing to say, imo.....

[henners88]

But is it treu? It is in a book written by the other driver in the Multi21gate thing and I am betting there is a disclaimer written into the novel as well?
Would it be wise of Webber to make something like that up? It's an autobiography not a novel and Webber is a straight up type of guy.

[jens]

Before the next race weekend, the Seb/ lawyer letter showed up at RB informing them that in case they decided to punish Seb for Multi 21, it was against his contract to exercise team orders..

This is really the crux of the matter here, if true. If Red Bull writes such a contract with a driver, then smart people will always look for details and clarification. Car designers look for loopholes to design a faster car...

Before people blow things out of proportion again ("omg, evil Seb"), I understand this specific case has nothing to do with Webber, but bureaucracy between Red Bull and Vettel. Many (prominent) people consult with lawyers to get clarifications in vague matters.

You can be sure Vettel is a smart guy and WILL turn his attention to such things. After all, unlike other drivers he is his own manager. And from I understand, negotiated his lucrative contract with Ferrari by himself.:) Which means he should know his contracts basically inside out.

[anfield5]

Webber is just like many other second drivers, he was always being conspired against by the team, was always given inferior equipment, was always given the car that mysteriously broke and was always going to be a real title threat next year. Much the same as Coulthard

[Big Ben]

the crux of the matter is liking a driver with such and nasty character and finding a way to justify his behavior. you can give me a ton of contracts that grant him the right to be a douche... I still wont like him because he IS a douche. and I hope no one gives me the 'they're all the same' routine because it's not true. They're not all sneaky spineless weasels. and I don't know another one that behaves like a annoying horny teenager either.

[jens]

and I hope no one gives me the 'they're all the same' routine because it's not true.

Well, let's put it this way. They are all weird in their own way. Like we all are. So yes, in this way they are all the same. You can always find reasons, why to hate somebody, or why to like somebody. There is a pretty big chance you have misunderstood Vettel, I'd say.

[latek]

Vettel had full right to bring his lawyer because his employer violated the rules of the contract. Horner knew he could not punish him because he issued team orders against Vettel illegally. Both parties had agreed on such contract and it should have been respected. Vettel is clearly not a stupid guy.

[journeyman racer]

All I know is, that team orders wasn't a problem for Seb in 14.


Webber is just like many other second drivers, he was always being conspired against by the team, was always given inferior equipment, was always given the car that mysteriously broke and was always going to be a real title threat next year. Much the same as Coulthard
Coulthard's car broke down many times when he was in the lead. Webber never has had that happen. So I wouldn't say it was much the same..

[Warriwa]

Vettel had full right to bring his lawyer because his employer violated the rules of the contract.

Vettel violated his verbal agreement with his teammate and employer. But alas, it was only verbal. Doesn't look good regarding his character though.

[jens]

To look at the full picture, didn't Webber disobey team orders at Silverstone 2011 and Brazil 2012? I think any verbal "agreement" the drivers might have had before Malaysia'13, had already gone out of the window anyway.

[henners88]

To look at the full picture, didn't Webber disobey team orders at Silverstone 2011 and Brazil 2012? I think any verbal "agreement" the drivers might have had before Malaysia'13, had already gone out of the window anyway.
I don't think anybody here is disputing that they both disobeyed team orders at some point during their Red Bull careers, but it's another matter when a driver orders his lawyer to threaten legal action over a team giving an order. You said earlier drivers consult their lawyers about certain matters and that is true, but do you think Webber would have even mentioned this particular matter if it was just run of the mill? Something suggests this incident damaged the relationships of quite a few team members and there was certainly a visible change in Horners and Vettels relationship.

We speculated a lot throughout 2014 with Vettel not appearing to care he was being beaten by his new team mate and Red Bull didn't seem too bothered either. I think Malaysia 2013 and its aftermath was the beginning of the end of Vettel's RB career and the mood seems to match Webbers admission. I also doubt he would risk legal action himself from Seb by making something potentially slanderous up.

I don't think people should be too harsh on Seb however. He's ruthless and all good world champions need that streak IMO. :)

[steveaki13]

I like Webber, and he seems straight up and down sort of guy, while Seb has an air of Champion and that kind of brutal two faced will to win. So its probably true.

Anyway I think to make this thread fantastic we need to get Dj and Garry Walker involved. :p

[jens]

That Malaysia was a marker in the beginning of the end of Vettel-RB relationship, probably has a point.

Whether and why Webber would have mentioned these things, I don't know, because I haven't read his book. But the thing is people often like to take some juicy excerpts from books or even articles and misinterpret things later on. Misinterpreting is so easy, especially if you don't have full context. So I won't go into it what Webber might have had in mind. People mention all kinds of details in books, which may or may not turn out to be important.

[henners88]

I would imagine Webber mentioned it because if he had left out the 'Multi 21' affair, the readers would be asking why? He's just given us a broader picture and this may or may not be an important part of it.

[Bagwan]

For me , it really starts with the team order .
You are paid millions . That should get a team a pretty loyal employee in my opinion .

Webber apparently wrote that the lawyer letter stated that it would be breach of contract to have Vettel punished because it was an unreasonable request/team order .

That's not a loyal employee who only obeys when it suits him .


One thing I wonder is why Mark waited to tell this story .
Some obscure non-disclosure agreement fear , perhaps ?

[Jag_Warrior]

If things don't go to plan at Ferrari or he gets another Ricciardo-like teammate post Raikkonen, I suspect that life will get "interesting" for Seb if he tries a similar move on the Prancing Horse squad. He might want to take Alain Prost to lunch and have a chat about times gone by before he ever considers doing that.

As I said in another thread, I like Vettel. But that was a total b!tch move on his part; saying that Webber didn't deserve to win. I saw Ricciardo's humiliation of Vettel last season as Karma issuing some payback. And the way that Ricciardo handled himself, as he rubbed a four time WDC winner's face in the soiled carpet, greatly raised my opinion of him. I used to be a big Max Papis fan in the old IMSA and CART days. Daniel reminds me of Max. And that's another reason I like that kid so much.