Red Bull hit out at Renault - again

[The Black Knight]

http://www1.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/9889560/red-bull-accuse-renault-of-sapping-8216will-and-motivation8217-to-continue-in-f1

These Red Bull guys would want a good kick up the hole. Imagine being a newcomer to the sport and witnessing this kind of behaviour. People may think Red Bull's involvement in F1 may have been good for the sport but, I for one, can't wait for these sore losers to fuck right off from the sport.

Renault is their partner and, obviously, they haven't done a good enough job but this kind of public bashing doesn't help anyone. If Renault leave the sport it will be because of Red Bull's behaviour not due to Lack of engine tokens as Horner has suggested.

I've never seen a more perfect case of throwing the toys out of the pram because you're not winning anymore than this.

[Bagwan]

"Hello , this is Red Bull calling . We're looking for a new engine supplier ."



"Hello ....hello ....?
"Hey guys . Can you work on the phones here ? I can't seem to get a line out ."

[N4D13]

Red Bull won championships with Renault from 2010 to 2013. Now their car sucks and they can't wait to place the blame on someone else. Trouble is, they wouldn't be anywhere near the podium with a Merc engine either, but it's just too convenient to have Renault as their scapegoat.

[journeyman racer]

I'd prefer RB to just go away, if it bothers them that much. Renault can stay, regardless of how ordinary they are.

[truefan72]

I'd prefer RB to just go away, if it bothers them that much. Renault can stay, regardless of how ordinary they are.

agree completely
with a tiny bit better reliability the Torro rosso cars would completely outclass the RBR's and be further up the grid. To me it just proves that despite Renault's troubles. they are probably the least of RBR's worries. I bet you if you stick that renault engine in the mercs or ferrari, they will still be fighting for the podium.

RBR has produced a stinker of a car and their arrogance simply won;t allow them to acknowledge the truth. And worse yet by doing so, not address the fundamental problems with their car.
Adrian Newy may be a genius aero guy, but he has also produced some of the most unreliable cars in history as well. I bet the overall packaging (and tightness) is the larger culprit.

[truefan72]

Red Bull won championships with Renault from 2010 to 2013. Now their car sucks and they can't wait to place the blame on someone else. Trouble is, they wouldn't be anywhere near the podium with a Merc engine either, but it's just too convenient to have Renault as their scapegoat.

it is becoming ridiculous. To me it is as if williams or Force IndiA started complaining about the Mercedes engine because they are not winning races or have fallen back a bit this year. Obviously it is more than the engine, but RBR can't/won't acknowledge that fact.

[kfzmeister]

I'm gonna side with RB a little bit here.

I'm not sure why Renault has such issues. They are, like Merc and Ferrari, in their second year with the V6.

Williams and Lotus have both already left Renault and both have upper their pace. RB continues to fall back.
It's not quite the middle of the season yet, and RB already are on their 5th engine! I realize that reliability is also affected by aero design (read cooling).

Something of interest to me is the amount of tokens that i read are still available to engine manufacturers as of late:

Merc, Ferrari and Honda all have 7 each left, while Renault still have 12. My question is why are they still sitting on that amount of tokens and have not used them up to increase performance and/ or reliability?

I wonder if there is more going on behind the scenes than we know. For instance, is Renault trying to achieve a split? Have relations between the two been damaged to the point of no return? We know that the business of F1 can be about huge egos.

[N4D13]

kfzmeister, no one is denying that Renault screwed up, which necessarily means that they've made some bad calls. What is being questioned here is RBR's legitimacy to harshly criticize Renault in public instead of making an effort to help them behind the scenes, give an image of teamwork and basically not being sore losers and throwing their toys out of the pram whenever things don't go their way.

[zako85]

To be honest, I am somewhat surprised by such public spat between RBR and Renault. How credible are RBR's threats? Realistically, what options does RBR have, other than Dietrich Mateschitz selling off the team? RBR racing with a "spec-B" Mercedes or Ferrari engine is going to be a sub-optimal option because those manufacturers have a vested interest in not allowing RBR to be in front of the factory car. So either RBR gets a "crippled" engine or none at all from them. The other option is the Honda engine, which is by now clearly beyond hopeless. So RBR's best option IMHO is to stick with Renault and have patience until Renault catches up with the best engines.

[gm99]

RBR racing with a "spec-B" Mercedes or Ferrari engine is going to be a sub-optimal option because those manufacturers have a vested interest in not allowing RBR to be in front of the factory car. So either RBR gets a "crippled" engine or none at all from them.

Toto Wolff has been asked by an Austrian newspaper if Mercedes would provide engines for RBR and he answered "No, not as long as I'm here. We invest a lot of money and energy in our success, so we won't give our engine to a big competitor."

[kfzmeister]

kfzmeister, no one is denying that Renault screwed up, which necessarily means that they've made some bad calls. What is being questioned here is RBR's legitimacy to harshly criticize Renault in public instead of making an effort to help them behind the scenes, give an image of teamwork and basically not being sore losers and throwing their toys out of the pram whenever things don't go their way.

I suppose at some point, enough is enough. Like i said, perhaps there is more going on behind the scenes. We can see that McLaren is trying to help Honda get on to of things. Who knows what the RB-Renault relationship is like, or at what point it got to be so bad. At some point i lose patience as well. It does not just go on, and on, and on.

Why do Renault still have all the tokens?

[CNR]

redbull and Toro Rosso have bouth used there fifth Renault engine and redbull is to blame ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????

[Hawkmoon]

Red Bull bitched about the Renault engine even when they were winning championships so nothing's really changed except the car isn't great and Red Bull don't seem to want to acknowledge it.

[N. Jones]

Red Bull need to shut the hell up and work on their car.

[journeyman racer]

I'd prefer RB to just go away, if it bothers them that much. Renault can stay, regardless of how ordinary they are.
I'm confronted that I got a like from truefan for this post.

[The Black Knight]

redbull and Toro Rosso have bouth used there fifth Renault engine and redbull is to blame ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????

There's no doubting that Renault are not having a very good season but RBR's season isn't just down to Renault as can be witnessed by Toro Rosso's form. At the end of the day Renault appear to be in a bit of disarray but publicly lambasting your Engine supplier isn't going to help anyone and it's not only going to be detrimental to your relationship but also your chances of improving. You have to take the good with the bad and, whether like it or not, Renault still took them to 4 world championships so they deserve a lot more respect than they are receiving from Red Bull.

I just want RBR to quit the sport now. I'm so sick of hearing them throw the toys out of the pram because they aren't on top anymore. F1 is swings and roundabouts. Mercedes are on top, RBR were on top for years before that. We've had periods of domination from Ferrari, Williams and McLaren in the last 20 years. Just because they aren't top of the pile, doesn't mean it's okay to behave the way they do now.

[jens]

For the first time for many years Red Bull's chassis isn't very good, but people care way too much about interviews and PR. If only you were so motivated to overanalyze the comments of every team and driver on the grid.

[rjbetty]

I'm confronted that I got a like from truefan for this post.

I like it too :D

[CNR]

Customer teams are paying between £14-17million for powertrains, with Renault understood to be the most expensive.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/119895

[Koz]

Williams and Lotus have both already left Renault and both have upper their pace. RB continues to fall back.

Williams won a race with Renault, they haven't with Mercedes. Can't blame Renault for a shitty car in 2013.
Both Mclaren and RBR have shitty cars, can't blame it all on shitty engines.


Red Bull bitched about the Renault engine even when they were winning championships so nothing's really changed except the car isn't great and Red Bull don't seem to want to acknowledge it.

Maybe RBR want to get enough bad PR aimed at Renault to get out of their 2016 contract?

[Mekola]

There are old links between RBR and Ferrari...

[jens]

It is pretty sure Renault PU is behind Mercedes and Ferrari. On power circuit like Canada both RBRs and STRs were struggling to get points, while they are more easily in the points on other circuits. And Red Bull had their best weekend at Monaco, where power unit counts less. Same tendency with McLaren - good at Monaco, where Honda's rubbishness doesn't matter that much. Nowhere in Canada.

[jens]

Williams won a race with Renault, they haven't with Mercedes. Can't blame Renault for a shitty car in 2013.
Both Mclaren and RBR have shitty cars, can't blame it all on shitty engines.


I think this engine switch argument applies to the new era from 2014 onwards. Doesn't matter, what was in 2013, 2012, because the V8 engines were pretty evenly matched. Maybe Mercedes had a slight horsepower advantage, which was evident at Monza, but it was too marginal to make a difference. The new era however...

Red Bull chassis may not be great, but power unit is still the weaker link. Same in McLaren. Can't believe people are trying to turn the argument around just because they don't like Red Bull's PR.

[Koz]

I think this engine switch argument applies to the new era from 2014 onwards.

Exactly. So in which universe is it fair to say that Williams upped their pace since leaving Renault?

[jens]

Exactly. So in which universe is it fair to say that Williams upped their pace since leaving Renault?

Well, ever since 2014 Williams has been top 3 in the constructors, which they weren't before.:p:

I think the point is that it was very important for 2014 to get the "right engines". And as we saw from 2014, while Mercedes was dominating, Williams, Force India and McLaren were all also in decent points. While Sauber, STR, Lotus, who were using "other customer engines", were further back.

The decision to switch for Merc engines for 2014 was a very inspiring call by the Williams management. In contrast Maldonado's decision to leave Williams...

[zako85]

The decision to switch for Merc engines for 2014 was a very inspiring call by the Williams management.

I suspect that Toto Wolff, who owns some shares of Williams and whose wife is a test pilot at Williams, simply called Claire Williams in 2013 and passed her a confidential advise about the engine situation. "We're going to bet our whole farm on this engine", he probably said. He must have known how massively Mercedes over-invested in the engine development. Maldonado could have known about this too, but it's possible that some kind of conflict was already brewing between him and the team.

[The Black Knight]

I think Cyril Abiteboul had pretty much hit the nail on the head as to why the Renault & RBR relationship isn't working anymore in the interview in his article.

http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/13374175/renault-gives-side-story-red-bull-spat

To give Renault credit where it is due, they have kept their class throughout this whole affair in very different circumstances and been level throughout. I hope they leave RBR in the wind, buy their own team and win the championship. It's the best way to give the finger to RBR.

[rjbetty]

I think Cyril Abiteboul had pretty much hit the nail on the head as to why the Renault & RBR relationship isn't working anymore in the interview in his article.

http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/13374175/renault-gives-side-story-red-bull-spat

To give Renault credit where it is due, they have kept their class throughout this whole affair in very different circumstances and been level throughout. I hope they leave RBR in the wind, buy their own team and win the championship. It's the best way to give the finger to RBR.

Yep, absolutely with you, it would serve them SO right. I think Renault will be too classy for that though and they will still honour their 2016 contract. I bet Red Bull might jump on board with Honda who could be decent by 2017.

[Malbec]

I think Cyril Abiteboul had pretty much hit the nail on the head as to why the Renault & RBR relationship isn't working anymore in the interview in his article.

http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/13374175/renault-gives-side-story-red-bull-spat

To give Renault credit where it is due, they have kept their class throughout this whole affair in very different circumstances and been level throughout. I hope they leave RBR in the wind, buy their own team and win the championship. It's the best way to give the finger to RBR.

Renault may well be classy but I suspect they are running their engine budget on a shoestring. I can't stand RBR but I can understand their frustration with Renault (even though they should vent it behind closed doors). It does take a special something to design a second PU after four years of development that is less powerful, less reliable and less driveable than its predecessor. Nor is the rate of development anywhere near as aggressive as that over at Honda though at least the piston failures are a thing of the past.

Ghosn is NOT a motorracing man. He will only invest in F1 if the success comes first and it shows it can pay its own way. If he can't see the numbers adding up then he won't do anything interesting. If the numbers don't work out Le Costcutter will cut costs the brutal way.

Even the plans to acquire an F1 team are half assed. Ghosn understands that once a team is established and winning like RBR and Mercedes, the sponsorship and prize money pay for the team and maximises exposure while limiting expenditure. The problem is that I don't think he wants to invest what is needed to get both the PU and the chassis to the required level. Buying Lotus is dependent almost entirely on who shoulders the team's debt and maximising the amount of money the team is entitled to. At least Bernie is helping them by offering them a heritage bonus.

For RBR I think its getting increasingly clear that if Renault's underinvestment carries on they'll even fall behind Honda. Sadly because they couldn't keep their mouths shut noone else will supply them. Karma on both sides I think.

[rjbetty]

I understand from that article that Renault would have liked Red Bull to invest in their engine program, since they themselves did not have the resources to match Mercedes.

An interesting point, and maybe a fair one I think. Seems RBR want the same amount of benefit Merc enjoy from being a works team without doing any of the investing themselves, as in wanting their cake and eating it.

As one of the careers advisers said, when I was doing a getting back into work program a few years ago, in a strong Wolverhampton accent, "yew git eowt wat yew puh'in".

[jens]

The issue is that Red Bull's standards are so high. They have won so many championships, they "demand" the best, which means they expect no less than top-notch quality from their partners as well, in this case Renault. If Renault's customer was Force India or Sauber, they could care less as long as they got engines cheap. I think Red Bull is trying to pressure Renault to make a decision ane make up their mind - invest properly into the engine programme, take F1 seriously. Because otherwise they have no chance of succeeding.

It reminds a bit of the BMW.Williams combination back in the day. Arguably BMW had the most powerful engine in the field, but Williams chassis was never quite a match up to that standard and they never won a championship together. BMW got frustrated and eventually bought Sauber, leaving Williams out in cold. Yeah, the BMW Sauber project yielded less success in the end, but that's another story.

[The Black Knight]

So breaking news is that Mercedes has now decided to reject a Red Bull Engine deal. With the news breaking earlier that Renault will not be supplying engines to RBR next year, then unless RBR can get a new manufacturer to enter the sport and build a spanking new engine in 6 months, then without a Ferrari deal (which is unlikely) or Honda (equally unlikely) it looks to me that they won't have an Engine and may not be able to run next year. Oh well, serves them right if that ends up being the case, I say, given their berating of Renault. A so long to the nagging sore losers that are RBR.

The only maybe saving grace for them would be a switch to Honda should McLaren relations break down so much that they split which is again extremely unlikely.

I wonder what they will do?

[Mark]

Interesting indeed. It would be hard to believe that the FIA would allow RBR to leave just for the want of an engine deal.

Isn't there a case that an engine supplier must be able to supply a certain number of teams if called upon to do so?

[Jag_Warrior]

I thought there was too, Mark. But I'm not sure what that number is, especially since it looks like Lotus/Enstone is going to become the Renault factory team again.

I'm also curious about engine specification rules these days. At one time, I thought that the engine manufacturers were no longer allowed to have different spec engines for different customers, as was common in the past. I can't remember the year (early 90's, I believe) where there were three different specs of a given engine brand on the grid. It seems like it would be impossible to require, say Mercedes, to supply the same spec to every customer and its own team all at once. So we have what we had this weekend. Sauber (and I guess Manor) have also had this situation with the Ferrari engine. Is there a time limit by which they have to have a given spec level available to all the teams they supply?

As for Red Bull... never quit your job until you have a new one lined up. Us workin' folk know that.

[AndyL]

I'm also curious about engine specification rules these days. At one time, I thought that the engine manufacturers were no longer allowed to have different spec engines for different customers, as was common in the past.

Yes that is in the current regulations.

[AndyL]

James Allen seems certain they will go with Ferrari. Dietrich Mateschitz's teams have dealt with Ferrari before of course. Certainly I'd see that as much more likely than Honda. One thing I think we can be certain of is that Red Bull's money won't be ejected from F1 for want of an engine.

[N. Jones]

I can't see Ferrari or Mercedes supplying them with engines. This isn't STR, RB are rivals!

[zako85]

It's hard to believe that either Ferrari or Mercedes could be trusted as impartial engine suppliers. Recall how McLaren got treated by Mercedes in 2014? They restricted access to critical information and McLaren received its engines hour before the practice, and then the engines were taken away after the GP.

[Big Ben]

I'll admit that the situation put a smile on my face :) . While I can understand their frustration with the Renault engine their attitude has been quite horrible. How was always slapping your engine supplier in public going to make things better? Especially when there aren't that many options out there. And always threatening to quit is so charming too. Ceausescu used to do the same thing, pretending to quit just to have everyone beg him to stay. Great minds think alike, right? :laugh:

What is an engine partner gaining when partnering with them anyway? There's hardly any visibility for them with this attention wh0re... they come in the spotlight just for the occasional b1tch slapping. The more I think about it, the more I dislike them.

If they leave, good riddance. I won't miss them and F1 needs a shock cause it's really f***ed ** anyway.

[The Black Knight]

James Allen seems certain they will go with Ferrari. Dietrich Mateschitz's teams have dealt with Ferrari before of course. Certainly I'd see that as much more likely than Honda. One thing I think we can be certain of is that Red Bull's money won't be ejected from F1 for want of an engine.

It's possible they may end up with a Ferrari Engine, either Torro Rosso or RBR or both. It's the only viable option I can see for them. I can't see Mercedes supplying them, they would be mad. Anyway, I'd be delighted it RBR f*cked off. I'm so tired of their whinging and they deserve a kick in the rear.

[The Black Knight]

Yes that is in the current regulations.

Well none of Mercedes customers were using the updated Mercedes spec Engine in Monza.

[The Black Knight]

Interesting indeed. It would be hard to believe that the FIA would allow RBR to leave just for the want of an engine deal.

Isn't there a case that an engine supplier must be able to supply a certain number of teams if called upon to do so?

Four I believe (can't be 100% certain) but Mercedes already do that so I can't see any obligation for them to provide an extra Engine to RBR.

[Mark]

Four does ring a bell, but it's hard to know as these things change semi-regularly.

As for it being the same spec, I don't think there is a rule as such, but as a supplier you get strength through running several teams, more data and the likes considering the lack of testing. So they are going to be wanting to run their 'best' design in all the teams they are supplying.

At the moment we need Honda to actually pull their finger out at get good. So they can start supplying the likes of three teams rather than just McLaren. But knowing Honda they'll withdraw - again.

[AndyL]

As for it being the same spec, I don't think there is a rule as such, but as a supplier you get strength through running several teams, more data and the likes considering the lack of testing. So they are going to be wanting to run their 'best' design in all the teams they are supplying.

There is a rule in Sporting regs Appendix 4:

2. A manufacturer may homologate no more than one specification of power unit.

I think the original meaning of this was that all customers would get the same engines. But once the Ferrari interpretation was accepted, and the idea of homologating the engines in February for the whole year was dropped, I guess this rule was effectively sidestepped.

[Bagwan]

A new spec can mean changes to which the individual customers have to adapt .

This sets up a natural time lag for the manufacturer .

[Jag_Warrior]

A new spec can mean changes to which the individual customers have to adapt .

This sets up a natural time lag for the manufacturer .

That sounds reasonable.

Also, other than limited supply, I have no idea what the reason was for Mercedes not offering the new engine to its customer teams. But I did hear on the qualifying broadcast that a different fuel formulation would be necessary for optimal performance. So that's something else. How much guidance comes from Mercedes or Petronas on fuel formulation? Not all of the Mercedes supplied teams run Petronas fuel and lubricants. Lotus still runs Total/Elf, correct? When McLaren was running the Merc last year, they used Exxon/Mobil products, right? I don't know who Williams uses. But now I wonder how much of the performance deficit comes down to fuel, lubricants and custom, optimized engine settings.

[Mia 01]

Mercedes is the new Ferrari, they use every thrick in the book and some Moore.

[Bagwan]

I would imagine you'd get some pretty reasonable advice on lubricants and fuel , but maybe not quite optimum .

I think , though , that making a few , even minor adjustments to , say , where a hose is mounted , could easily be justified by some technical talk about flow or cooling , but really be just a way to slow the others down , as they would be forced at times , to re-package .
You could make a mounting point where you know you have something solid but the others don't .

There's all kinds of ways you could screw with them to keep them behind , asking for the old spec .

[The Black Knight]

Four I believe (can't be 100% certain) but Mercedes already do that so I can't see any obligation for them to provide an extra Engine to RBR.

Correction the number is actually three, not four, but Mercedes had to receive special dispensation from the FIA last year to supply a fourth Engine.

Mercedes are now in talks with Manor to provide them Mercedes engines next year. Manor currently use last years Ferrari Engine, so this would represent a massive boost for them if they could get it. I'd also imagine that it would put them ahead of the McLarens on track :D

Following for source:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/120711

So, to me, this looks like RBR and STR will indeed use Ferrari Engines next year and Manor Mercedes. Whether it will be the latest one Engine spec for those teams remains to be seen.

[Bezza]

I'm getting quite dispondent of what comes across as a "Mercedes-controlled" F1 at the moment.

Mercedes have the best chassis and engine combination.

They supply engines to Williams, Force India and Lotus too.

Williams have a very good chassis but it is evident they are not getting the highest spec Mercedes engine to allow them to compete with Mercedes. And whenever they have had a chance to win – Austria 2014, Britain 2015 – they have essentially ignored the fight for the win.

Red Bull need a better engine for them to compete again, but Mercedes won’t give them even a second-rate one like the Williams!



When will Mercedes realize that them winning all the time with ease is actually not good for themselves in the long run? They need competition. F1 needs competition. Why not supply Red Bull and have them mix it with them. They will still have Mercedes engines – surely that would enhance the reputation???

It is quite typically German what is going on at the moment. Win at absolutely all costs, even if means switch your TV off – which is what I did after about 15 laps of the Italian Grand Prix.

[jens]

Well yeah, Bezza.

Mercedes domination in my book has been worse than Red Bull or Ferrari in the past. At least they never dominated for two consecutive years. Red Bull dominated 2011, 2013, but 2010 and 2012 were close enough. Ferrari dominated 2002, 2004, but 2003 was close and 2001 half of the wins went to other teams too. But Mercedes already has two consecutive seasons of utter domination. And guess they'll get third one too.

As for Red Bull. I am unsure what they are gambling on. Sure enough the relationship with Renault has been unsatisfactory, but it seems they have competely burnt bridges and played themselves into the corner. Some pretty heavy political game, but interesting to see, what comes out of it!

Basically if Red Bull wants to have a long-term future in the sport, they must hope Honda comes good or another manufacturer joins. Because Mercedes and Ferrari will never give them equal opportunity to beat the works teams. Before 2014 there were lots of arguments, how important it is to be The Works team in the new era and everything points to this being the case.

Of course, it demands that the engine of the works team is up to scratch too (looking at you, Honda, and to a lesser extent Renault). So basically... there are not many options to choose from if you want to win. McLaren gambled with Honda and look what happened. Only Mercedes and Ferrari can have a reasonable expectation of fighting for wins next year. All others know at best they can get (a) podium(s).

[jens]

Mercedes is the new Ferrari, they use every thrick in the book and some Moore.

That's politics. In interviews everyone likes to claim that "close competition would be good for F1", but regardless of whether it is Ferrari, Red Bull or Mercedes at the front, they use every possible mean to keep their advantage. So nothing new under the sun, business as usual.:)

[The Black Knight]

So people feel it is a good idea for Mercedes to supply an on par Engine to RBR so that RBR can possibly beat them? The logic here is incredibly flawed.

It would be a PR disaster for Mercedes. It would send out the following statement "We make great Engines, but even a drinks manufacturer can build a better chassis than us".

If you think this is good for Mercedes, you're completely off your game.

[zako85]

Well yeah, Bezza.

Mercedes domination in my book has been worse than Red Bull or Ferrari in the past. At least they never dominated for two consecutive years. Red Bull dominated 2011, 2013, but 2010 and 2012 were close enough.

Indeed. We used to think that 2011 was bad, but McLaren and Ferrari managed to win seven races! 2013 was very bad after the European leg of the season, but that's because pretty much every team gave up on beating Red Bulls and wrote the season off, including Ferrari who said that they were going to stop car development after Belgian GP if there was no progress.

As for Red Bull burning bridges with Mercedes, I am guessing that Red Bull is probably thinking that achieving the current Williams F1 level of performance, with either Ferrari or Mercedes engines is still better than fighting for points outside of top 5. I don't know what Ferrari or Mercedes think about engine supply for Red Bull, but Red Bull being very important for F1 success, I think Bernie E or FIA will try to pull some strings in the backrooms in order to coalesce those factories to provide Red Bull with a better engine.

I think it's a pretty exciting stuff if Renault resurrects its factory team. That's one more well-funded team, which is good for F1.

[zako85]

So people feel it is a good idea for Mercedes to supply an on par Engine to RBR so that RBR can possibly beat them? The logic here is incredibly flawed.

It would be a PR disaster for Mercedes. It would send out the following statement "We make great Engines, but even a drinks manufacturer can build a better chassis than us".

If you think this is good for Mercedes, you're completely off your game.

Mercedes did play a second fiddle to McLaren-Mercedes in 2010-2012, which did look embarrassing. At this point though, I think Red Bull would probably be happier to be in position that Williams is in right now, than to be fighting for points outside of top 5 spots in most races. If Red Bull car could regularly finish on podium, that would still mean something (like a good marketing exposure to the brand of drinks they promote).

[Bezza]

So people feel it is a good idea for Mercedes to supply an on par Engine to RBR so that RBR can possibly beat them? The logic here is incredibly flawed.

It would be a PR disaster for Mercedes. It would send out the following statement "We make great Engines, but even a drinks manufacturer can build a better chassis than us".

If you think this is good for Mercedes, you're completely off your game.

To an extent I agree. But we are at the point now where Mercedes are effectively controlling F1 as they have the superior overall package. This is negative for F1 and the lack of competition is leading people to switch off. And with the current regulations and restrictions on development, effectively what you see in Australia in the first race just carries on for the season.

F1 needs a massive shape up and 2017 is key to its future.

And honestly, who cares if Mercedes are unhappy with any potential changes that harm them. F1 has done well enough when they weren't involved.

[The Black Knight]

To an extent I agree. But we are at the point now where Mercedes are effectively controlling F1 as they have the superior overall package. This is negative for F1 and the lack of competition is leading people to switch off. And with the current regulations and restrictions on development, effectively what you see in Australia in the first race just carries on for the season.

F1 needs a massive shape up and 2017 is key to its future.

And honestly, who cares if Mercedes are unhappy with any potential changes that harm them. F1 has done well enough when they weren't involved.

You know we were having this same conversation 12 years ago when Ferrari were dominating and we're likely to be having this conversation in another ten years as well when another manufacturer dominate. Mercedes have given a lot to F1 since they returned to F1 as an Engine supplier and I think should they decide to quit F1 it would be a big loss. I think they've given a lot more to F1 than the likes of RBR. They may not have two teams but they have invested an awful lot and, in my opinion, completely deserve their success. As Ron Dennis said "You can't punish a team for doing a good job". It's not their fault that the other teams didn't do as good a job as they did. Honda, RBR, Renault, they were all aware of the rule changes for 2014 at the same time.

RBR could have worked with Renault instead of throwing the toys out of the pram, which probably would have been the best solution for them, except they threw the toys out of the pram.

Does F1 need Mercedes? No, but I'd wager that F1 needs Mercedes supplying their Engines to four teams on the grid a lot more than Mercedes needs F1.

[AndyL]

With the Renault-Lotus deal not yet finalised, Lotus have nevertheless decided to retain the only guy on the grid who has retired from more races than the McLaren drivers (http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2015/09/the-curious-case-of-pastor-maldonados-f1-renewal-in-the-night/). Curious. You'd think manufacturer backing would remove the need for a crash-happy pay driver. Instead it seems Grosjean may be the one to leave.

As also noted in that James Allen article, Renault have still not used a single one of their 12 remaining engine tokens. I wonder how much that has to do with the falling out with Red Bull. Red Bull performance in 2015 is surely no longer a priority for Renault. I'm guessing those tokens will be used at the last possible date, and on changes that are more focused on laying groundwork for 2016 engine development than on immediate performance improvements.

[jens]

With the Renault-Lotus deal not yet finalised, Lotus have nevertheless decided to retain the only guy on the grid who has retired from more races than the McLaren drivers (http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2015/09/the-curious-case-of-pastor-maldonados-f1-renewal-in-the-night/). Curious. You'd think manufacturer backing would remove the need for a crash-happy pay driver. Instead it seems Grosjean may be the one to leave.


The more I think about it, the more Renault involvement seems like the 2010 one - part-ownership, Renault name, yellow livery, but underfinanced and Petrov as a paydriver.

I have not been convinced Renault is prepared to make a FULL commitment to F1 in the new hyper-expensive power units era.

[dj_bytedisaster]

So people feel it is a good idea for Mercedes to supply an on par Engine to RBR so that RBR can possibly beat them? The logic here is incredibly flawed.

It would be a PR disaster for Mercedes. It would send out the following statement "We make great Engines, but even a drinks manufacturer can build a better chassis than us".

If you think this is good for Mercedes, you're completely off your game.

Aren't they sending that message anyway? They already said that they won't supply their engines to RBR to avoid creating a strong opponent. So basically they already told the world that they don't trust their own chassis to be competitive with an RBR built one.

[dj_bytedisaster]

...As Ron Dennis said "You can't punish a team for doing a good job". It's not their fault that the other teams didn't do as good a job as they did. Honda, RBR, Renault, they were all aware of the rule changes for 2014 at the same time.

RBR could have worked with Renault instead of throwing the toys out of the pram, which probably would have been the best solution for them, except they threw the toys out of the pram.


That's not quite true. In the past teams who were too strong have always been punished for being too good. When Williams was unbeatable by anyone but Schumacher in the 90s, their electronic gimmicks were banned. When Ferrari blew everyone into the weeds in the early naughts they were nerfed via tyre rules in 2005. Whenever Red Bull found a clever solution that the others couldn't copy or not copy good enough, they were banned. (EBD for instance). Additionally they tried to nobble them with the ridiculous 2013 tyres until things literally blew up into FIA's face at Silverstone.

So the thing is, everybody BUT Mercedes has always been punished for dominating the sport. The problem that could ultimately become fatal for F1, is that they CAN'T nobble Mercedes, because they would do the same as Red Bull and bugger off and F1 would practically implode with so many teams losing their power units. So basically, our only hope is Ferrari. If they really step up next year, we may see at least two teams fighting for wins. Else we have the choice between Pest and Cholera. Either we see F1 die of boredom or because Merc buggers off when they have their easy wins taken from them.

[The Black Knight]

http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/13877136/adrian-newey-doubts-red-bull-reconciliation-renault

It’s amazing really that RBR still are unable to see that clearly this situation is 100% completely of their own doing. Newey now saying that rivals are forcing them out of F1 by not supplying them with an Engine. Well, maybe they should have made sure of that before they destroyed their relationship with Renault this year. I mean, honestly, what did they expect? It amazes me how this team never ever takes responsibility for anything. I mean, I thought that with Karthikayen in Malaysia 2012 their arrogance was dumbfounding but this is just taking arrogance and fuckwittery to a level I’ve never witnessed before. Words can’t describe how much I hate RBR.

Basically what RBR are stating is the following:

Hi Mercedes, here’s €12 million or so for your engine. Now you go off and keep developing that Engine which will come to about half your budget and we then, with the same overall budget, will just pump everything into our chassis to beat you so we get the best Engine on the grid for next to nothing and get an extra €150million a year to pump into our chassis than you do.

See engine cost cap details:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/120865

The arrogance of this team is just unquantifiable. They have the biggest budget of everyone and expect it all to be handed on a plate to them. This is not what F1 is about. It is about ingenuity and hard work. RBR want everything spoon fed to them. Fingers crossed they leave the sport. I’d rather that than listen to them moan and bitch about not winning anymore and they certainly shouldn’t be left get their own way based on their behavior, it’s been bang out of order.

[Tazio]

The arrogance of this team is just unquantifiable. They have the biggest budget of everyone and expect it all to be handed on a plate to them. This is not what F1 is about. It is about ingenuity and hard work. RBR want everything spoon fed to them. Fingers crossed they leave the sport. I’d rather that than listen to them moan and bitch about not winning anymore and they certainly shouldn’t be left get their own way based on their behavior, it’s been bang out of order.
TBH it took me a long time to digest their arrogance when they were on top, and I like them even less with their constant whining now that they are closer to the mid-field. The Judge13 has, IMO an interesting opinion of their situation:
http://thejudge13.com/2015/10/15/why-f1-should-expel-red-bull-from-the-sport/ ;)

[The Black Knight]

TBH it took me a long time to digest their arrogance when they were on top, and I like them even less with their constant whining now that they are closer to the mid-field. The Judge13 has, IMO an interesting opinion of their situation:
http://thejudge13.com/2015/10/15/why-f1-should-expel-red-bull-from-the-sport/ ;)

That article pretty much sums up my opinion on this completely. They should go away quietly into the night and then we won't have to listen to them anymore hopefully.

[anfield5]

If RBR do go (and if they do who would really miss them?) hopefully there is a buyer who will take over and keep the team running with a new identity. They have too much that is technically good about them to loose, including 4 of the best young drivers on the grid (including STR).

Ferrari will provide them with 2015 engines, and Ferrari say that this is because they don't have the capacity to provide 4 sets of '16 specs, and since RBR is the last team in they get the old engines. RBR need to accept this compromise for a season and make a better deal for '17. Every team goes through phases like this and emerge stronger from the other side (just look at what McLaren are going through). RBR basically need to stop acting like a bunch of spoiled brats and get their heads down and do some work.