WEC better than F1

[steveaki13]

I have watched F1 since a lad in the early/mid 90s and for the first time I believe that WEC and therefore the Le Mans 24 hours is a better sport to watch than F1.

You get to see more differential between cars. I mean Nissan taking part in this years Le Mans had designed a really different LMP1 car to the rest.

We get great racing in all 4 categories and right up front as seen in Rounds 1 & 2 of the WEC when we had lead cars battling, racing and passing without DRS or such rubbish.

Today with 10 minutes of the 24 hours to go we had Audi's boss in the Porsche garage shaking hands and congratulating them on there inpending win. Again a better spirit I would bet than F1. I can't remember that happening recently.

Also judging by Hulkenbergs reaction to winning it means alot to take part and win it.

So this is all the thoughts of someone who has loved F1 since a boy. It has been my favourite sport for parts of my life.

Yet the last 5-8 years my love of F1 has bit by bit wained. Until I now wonder if F1 should look at WEC. Cos from what I can see its now a better motorsport.

[AAReagles]

Yeah Steveaki13: I agree word for word of what you stated.

Though I followed the sport a bit longer than you, I would have to say that the current F1 status has changed enough for me to follow endurance racing instead. Never before did I ever feel that way - as I used to consider F1 AND Group C as equals since they both ran on the same challanging circuits. IMSA GT and Can-Am being the only others to remotely rival the aforementioned. Indy 500 was tops too.... at one time..

[Brown, Jon Brow]

And none of that fuel saving nonsense...........:p


:erm:

[Mekola]

Wonder if now WEC is getting back the best days of Group C in current sportscars...

[zako85]

To be honest, F1 is looking bleak relative to many many other competitions.

Formula E: a surprisingly good first season. Good tracks, good racing, good competition. The top three drivers are separated by just a few points towards the end of 14-15 season.

MotoGP: MotoGP is always great to watch thanks to frequent close battles, but this season Yamaha and Ducati have finally produced decent bikes resulting in a very good season so far.

IndyCar: same as always, but Indy 500 was fantastic, probably the best in the last 5-10 years.

WEC: I thought the first two races of season were incredible, and 24 Hours of Lemans was the most anticipated race of the year of ALL motorsports.

With such background, F1 looks kind of bleak this season. I still enjoy watching F1 races for the moments like Vettel having to start from the back or Monaco GP changing by an accidentally inept pit call. The midpack competition is quite interesting, if you followed the discussion about who can possibly finish 5th in WCC this season. But the current season is bad for PR and F1 is not attracting new fans. A constant talk about losing more European GPs doesn't help much.

PS: I think Bernie knows who needs to be done to fix F1 racing. Mercedes should hire Alonso ;p

[journeyman racer]

Jumping the gun, aren't we? Doesn't matter what the flavour of the month is, F1 is no1.

[tbtstt]

Fully agree with the original post; WEC has been the best FiA tarmac racing series for several years now in my opinion (not that it need to be good to outshine F1 in it's current state ;)).

Unfortunately until certain individuals are removed from the FiA they will never acknowledge that but, to be perfectly honest, I don't really care. As long as the manufacturers and the fans realize how good the WEC is and continue to support it, then that's good enough for me!

[N4D13]

I haven't ever watched WEC, but judging from the comments in this thread, it sounds like I should really start watching it ASAP. Know any broadcasters? I don't care much about the country.

[AndyL]

You get to see more differential between cars. I mean Nissan taking part in this years Le Mans had designed a really different LMP1 car to the rest.

It was spectacularly slow though. Meanwhile in F1, McLaren get ripped to shreds for their development project, which is a lot closer to the front pace than Nissan's was in LMP1. While Le Mans is a magnificent event and probably the greatest car race in the world, I don't think people are judging it by the same hyper-critical standards that are invariably applied to F1.

[truefan72]

It was spectacularly slow though. Meanwhile in F1, McLaren get ripped to shreds for their development project, which is a lot closer to the front pace than Nissan's was in LMP1. While Le Mans is a magnificent event and probably the greatest car race in the world, I don't think people are judging it by the same hyper-critical standards that are invariably applied to F1.

good point.
I wouldn't call it slow though, but the other point is very valid. It is essentially a 2 horse race (with one parent VW) and the other manufacturer Toyota is having a very bad 2014 RBR kinda year. Although they are pretty much stopping 2015 development and starting on 2016 now. Nissan are having a mclaren year too, and the Rebellion is like the Midfield runner with no chance to ever crack the podium.
I really enjoyed the LeMans race, mainly because i like the way the cars look and there was some good track battles. But that is mainly due to the longevity of the race rather than the default nature. In a 24 hour race there were maybe 8 good racing situations between the top 2 teams. Other than that, the race lead pretty much switched during pitstops. In the last 7 hours the porsche 19 lead hovered anyway from 1 lap to about a half lap lead and it became a procedural race until the end.
Yes it was fun, but I wouldn't compare it to F1. To me its apples and oranges. with all the different classes, cars and the length

Out of all the years, this year's LMP1 class is pretty much a mirror image of F1.

[zako85]

The WEC thing of envy of the F1 fans should not be the 2015 24 Hours of Le Mans, but the 6 hours of Silverstone, the first WEC race of the year. In that race, there was more close wheel racing between the top cars than in all of 2015 F1 season combined. At some point, there was so much high speed position swapping within a single lap that Audi's Wolfgang Ulrich started chuckling. It looked like a sprint race on drugs, rather than a 6 hour race.

[AndyL]

good point.
I wouldn't call it slow though, but the other point is very valid

Perhaps I'm being a bit harsh, but they were 20 seconds off pole in qualifying which is a pretty big margin.

[truefan72]

Perhaps I'm being a bit harsh, but they were 20 seconds off pole in qualifying which is a pretty big margin.

Actually the pole i think was a 3:18 which was pretty fast if not one of the fastest, considering it is an aggregate time over day and night Qualy sessions
In fact the 2015 cars were breaking lap recors even in Qualy itself:
http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/jani-smashes-lap-record-for-provisional-pole-at-le-mans/ - New Lap Record
http://highlandstoday.com/hi/sports/porsche-grabs-pole-for-24-hours-of-le-mans-20150613/ - Qualifying results

And during the race the audis and orsches were smashing the lap records time and time again, more imrpessively during the evenings
And on the mulsan straights the Nissan was topping the speed traps at 208mph (334.744kmh) which is just around Monza start/finish straight speeds
The average laps speed for Monza in 2014 was around 250kmh
the average laps speed for Le Mans in 2015 was around 248kmh
Now consider that the track is around 3 times as long and the driver has to carry that speed or higher for over 70% of the lap and that is incredibly fast
Add night time visibility to that mix and it is even more impressive

[AndyL]

Actually the pole i think was a 3:18 which was pretty fast if not one of the fastest, considering it is an aggregate time over day and night Qualy sessions
In fact the 2015 cars were breaking lap recors even in Qualy itself:

I get the impression you misunderstood my post. I was replying to Steve's comment about Nissan. Pole was a 3:16, the fastest Nissan LMP1 qualified with a 3:36.
This was the crux of my point. Nissan being praised for taking a risk and ploughing their own furrow, even though the result was disappointing, while McLaren are reviled for the same thing.

[truefan72]

I get the impression you misunderstood my post. I was replying to Steve's comment about Nissan. Pole was a 3:16, the fastest Nissan LMP1 qualified with a 3:36.
This was the crux of my point. Nissan being praised for taking a risk and ploughing their own furrow, even though the result was disappointing, while McLaren are reviled for the same thing.

Oh OK I get it now.

[AAReagles]

The WEC thing of envy of the F1 fans should not be the 2015 24 Hours of Le Mans, but the 6 hours of Silverstone, the first WEC race of the year. In that race, there was more close wheel racing between the top cars than in all of 2015 F1 season combined. At some point, there was so much high speed position swapping within a single lap that Audi's Wolfgang Ulrich started chuckling. It looked like a sprint race on drugs, rather than a 6 hour race.

Bingo. Which is exactly why I enjoyed Group C (WEC... or whatever) just as much as I did F1.

[AAReagles]

Doesn't matter what the flavour of the month is, F1 is no1.

I agree with that in regards of a WDC, however there are other elements to suggest otherwise: a senile manager who even has issues of understanding thebasic concept of revolving doors (german court facility), downward trajectories of attendence/tv ratings, confounding rule changes, loss of euro venues and drivers criticizing the current state of things. Those factors and more, indicate that F1 is in trouble.

I can't see it getting any worse, yet I thought the same about CART/IRL. And we've seen what happened there.

[N4D13]

Judging by the impressions in this thread, I'm now pondering attending the next WEC race, which happens to take place at the Nuerburgring on August 28th-30th. :) However, since there is no WEC sub-forum here or I'm too blind to find it, I need to ask here - any tips regarding accommodation and transport? I'm just a student myself, so the cheaper, the better. :D

[steveaki13]

Can't answer that N4D13 but definately go along. Its fun. Obviously be prepared for a long race.


As for those talking about Nissan above. I know it was slow, I was just saying at least teams can be different. I praise Mclaren for doing that. Hopefully it comes good.

I expect Nissan to improve if they persist.

[AAReagles]

Judging by the impressions in this thread, I'm now pondering attending the next WEC race, which happens to take place at the Nuerburgring on August 28th-30th. :) However, since there is no WEC sub-forum here or I'm too blind to find it....

GT Racing And Le Mans Forum

And yeah, I was about to suggest to you guys in europe to attend a race since you guys are closer.

They are longer events, and that's good as that gives you enough time to walk around the track and take photos (or video) of cars from various vantage points. Then after taking some normal photos, start experimenting with different shutter speeds while panning & zooming in shots at your desired locations.

Then next year you know where to go.

And of course, always prepare be prepared for the wet stuff.

[steveaki13]

GT Racing And Le Mans Forum

And yeah, I was about to suggest to you guys in europe to attend a race since you guys are closer.

They are longer events, and that's good as that gives you enough time to walk around the track and take photos (or video) of cars from various vantage points. Then after taking some normal photos, start experimenting with different shutter speeds while panning & zooming in shots at your desired locations.

Then next year you know where to go.

And of course, always prepare be prepared for the wet stuff.

I agree with this.

I have watched WEC for a few years now, but went to Round 1 at Silverstone this season. Brilliant fun.

Will be going again next year.

[AAReagles]

Well yeah man, that's what I'm saying; just because F1 is tanking doesn't mean you have to lose your enthusiam for the sport.

Hell if I could get access to the WRC, I get into that too. I dug it back in the mid-80s when ESPN had it on.

F1, I know I go overboard on because I'm bent about how politics and tech have shaped it from what it once was nearly 40 years ago when I first caught the bug. But if it goes - oh well. I just re-direct my passion & $$$ elsewhere.

I'm more concerned about this forum than F1. At least until that ¥#$* capitalist Bernie goes.

[journeyman racer]

Don't know what that other post is about.


The WEC thing of envy of the F1 fans should not be the 2015 24 Hours of Le Mans, but the 6 hours of Silverstone, the first WEC race of the year. In that race, there was more close wheel racing between the top cars than in all of 2015 F1 season combined. At some point, there was so much high speed position swapping within a single lap that Audi's Wolfgang Ulrich started chuckling. It looked like a sprint race on drugs, rather than a 6 hour race.
The sportscar/GT "industry" revolves around Le Mans. Every other race is just filling in time in between Le Mans. Silverstone is just...Silverstone. Doesn't matter how much passing there is.


I agree with that in regards of a WDC, however there are other elements to suggest otherwise: a senile manager who even has issues of understanding thebasic concept of revolving doors (german court facility), downward trajectories of attendence/tv ratings, confounding rule changes, loss of euro venues and drivers criticizing the current state of things. Those factors and more, indicate that F1 is in trouble.
Those mean nothing over the course of history,a nd will be forgotten about in coming decades.


I can't see it getting any worse, yet I thought the same about CART/IRL. And we've seen what happened there.
F1 is about the hole c'ship. CART deteriorated because American motorsport revolves around the Indy 500. IRL never had the credibility to start with, so Indycar racing as whole has gone backwards.

[AAReagles]

The sportscar/GT "industry" revolves around Le Mans.... Silverstone is just...Silverstone. Doesn't matter how much passing there is.

You do realize of course he was referring to the passes in lead changes - while ON the track.

WEC may revolve around Le Mans; but F1 is in a gravitational pull from the death star known as Bernie. And that's not a good thing....

[journeyman racer]

I'm saying what zak reckons everyone should get excited about, isn't really that big a deal. With it's history and length, even those with a passing interest in motorsport would know all competitors are fair dinkum at Le Mans. Silverstone is just another race, regardless of entertainment value.

[AAReagles]

I'm saying what zak reckons everyone should get excited about, isn't really that big a deal. With it's history and length... Silverstone is just another race, regardless of entertainment value.

And so how does that logic not apply to F1?

When there's two former WDCs expressing how dull F1 is, another former WDC suggesting to lower ticket prices, I'm inclined to believe there is a problem.

Of course one would not really need to look any further than this F1 forum to assess that.

Take for instance that 'Congratulations to Hulkenburger' thread, only 4 or 5 posts, nevertheless all the feedback was positive... about a WEC race... on the F1 forum.

When was the last time a F1 race was received so well?... the season opener?... the second event?

Even Monaco - the race that F1 revolves around - had mixed reviews. And the only thing that made it interesting was Merc mishap w/their pitstop.

[journeyman racer]

And so how does that logic not apply to F1?

Even Monaco - the race that F1 revolves around - had mixed reviews. And the only thing that made it interesting was Merc mishap w/their pitstop.
Because overall, F1 is the highest level of motorsport. People who have an interest in a sport, largely take notice of what is the highest level, because it's impractical to follow everything.

F1 doesnt't revolve around Monaco, despite it being the best known race. F1 revolves around being the highest level and being a championship/series. If there was no Monaco, F1 would still carry on. It might lose some commercial value, but it would still carry on as is.

When you compare that to Sportscar/Gt and Indycar racing. Those industries/series would be demolished without Le Mans/Indy 500 underpinning it's existence.

Even over here. People might get carried away with the V8 Supercar series. But if Australia didn't have Bathurst to begin with, I don't think we would have any meaningful professional car racing at all. I don't even think we'd have a GP, or at least have had it for so long continuously.


When there's two former WDCs expressing how dull F1 is, another former WDC suggesting to lower ticket prices, I'm inclined to believe there is a problem.

Of course one would not really need to look any further than this F1 forum to assess that.

Take for instance that 'Congratulations to Hulkenburger' thread, only 4 or 5 posts, nevertheless all the feedback was positive... about a WEC race... on the F1 forum.

When was the last time a F1 race was received so well?... the season opener?... the second event?
None of those drivers would be saying how dull it is if they were winning.

Lower ticket prices is a good idea in any context.

F1 races don't have to be received well. They're all just a piece of the puzzle that makes up the whole c'ship.

[AAReagles]

Because overall, F1 is the highest level of motorsport.It's suppose to be that, but in recent times it has
developed into a two horse race only, w/the rest of the field performing R&D for next season. Not good.


F1 doesnt't revolve around Monaco, despite it being the best known race... If there was no Monaco, F1 would still carry on..Can't see Monaco going, but lose Silverstone and/or Monza more long-term fans will be gone. Again, not good.


None of those drivers would be saying how dull it is if they were winningThe point was nobody would be saying that - especially at that level - if it weren't true. Once again, not good.

[AAReagles]

F1 races don't have to be recieved well...Somehow I don't think even Bernie would agree with that.

[giu canbera]

I think people are just excited about Nissan's car and the 24H Le Mans race....
I love that WEC have big downforce on the corners, allow soooo different cars to compete together, have that awesome traffic on track with Porsches, Ferraris and LMP1s...
But I dont see how can a 6H race with "action" only on the first lap could be thaaaat interesting to steal the F1 casual viewers y'know?
Its the same with WRC... Its WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY better and fun and cool and everything..
But the format is not good enough for the casual fan.
But its fun to have people finally knowing theres great racing outside F1

[AAReagles]

Amen to that (Thumbs up).

[zako85]

Well yes, for a casual fan, a 2-3 hour format should be tops. In fact, I suspect, a lot of truly casual fans would probably prefer the kind of 50 minute long TV races they have in Formula E or MotoGP. However, those who post here, are already beyond casual fans.

Moreover, I disagree that all of action in a six hour WEC race is just in the first lap. I don't watch all 6 hour races, but my first one was the WEC race at COTA in Austin in 2013, and what surprised me there was how the front running Audi and Toyota (first or second year for Toyota then) were leapfrogging past each other during pretty much the whole race. Most passes happened during the pit stops, but still I consider it close racing. The race outcome wasn't resolved until the end of race. Likewise, this year, the first two six hour races had plenty of LMP1 action way past the first lap. In Spa, you'd have to watch till like 5th hour or so to decidedly say that Audi was on top.

I'd also argue that a casual fan willing to spend a whole day at the race track, should definitely consider attending a WEC race. At COTA, the WEC tickets were normally, like half the price of the general admission F1 tickets, but the WEC tickets let you sit in pretty much any part of the track, grand stands, etc. The value is very good, and there is lots of thrills. You get to do the grid walk in WEC, and see the cars in person up close. If the action on the track is too monotonous, you can always take a hike around the track, while following the race through the screens all over the place.

[steveaki13]

The first round of the WEC this season has some much battling and passing for the lead it was unbelievable that you would ever see that in F1.

[zako85]

The first round of the WEC this season has some much battling and passing for the lead it was unbelievable that you would ever see that in F1.

One bizarre thing about Silverstone, and also some moments in the Spa round, is that a lot of wheel to wheel racing was apparently in the corners, and LMP1 are supposedly high downforce cars. How does this square with the view that wings and the downforce they create have apparently made passing near impossible in F1, and DRS was the only way around it?

[AndyL]

One bizarre thing about Silverstone, and also some moments in the Spa round, is that a lot of wheel to wheel racing was apparently in the corners, and LMP1 are supposedly high downforce cars. How does this square with the view that wings and the downforce they create have apparently made passing near impossible in F1, and DRS was the only way around it?

It appears that LMP1s have simpler wings but more under-body aero, as opposed to mandated flat floors in F1. Maybe that accounts for the LMP1 aero being more tolerant of turbulence. F1 designers have to pack all their downforce into smaller regulated areas, leading to the elaborate aero surfaces that we see; I've a hunch that as a result, they might be more sensitive to non-ideal conditions than the less "concentrated" aero on an LMP1.