Ayrton Senna: A True F1 Legend

[DannyQ]

RIP - Ayrton Senna 1960 - 1994

http://motorsportcentral.co.uk/f1-legend-ayrton-senna/ :champion:

In your opinion who else ranks as a true legend of F1?

[Zico]

RIP Ayrton

Bit of a cop-out as dont want to start another war but if going by results obviously Fangio, Schumacher... and Pastor Maldonado. :)

[steveaki13]

Pastor is beyond legend :p

[journeyman racer]

Prost

[Jag_Warrior]

Niki Lauda, Gilles Villeneuve, James Hunt, Graham Hill, Jim Clark...

There is a common thread there^: to be considered a legend, it helps if you're dead (or look like you're dead).

[steveaki13]

I think there is a difference between legend and all time great. I mean Gilles Villeneuve is considered a legend by some, but did not get the chance to become an all time great.

All time greats for me.

Fangio, Ascari, G. Hill, Jim Clark, Jack Brabham, Lauda, Piquet, Prost, Senna, Schumacher, Vettel (just for 4 titles in a row)

[AAReagles]

I think there is a difference between legend and all time great. I mean Gilles Villeneuve is considered a legend by some, but did not get the chance to become an all time great.

I'm afraid that I have to admit I was disappointed with his brief engagement of driver politics, but after Imola it is understandable.

From how he was ranked while he was alive, the greatest compliment IMO came from the 79' Austrian GP winner:

"I was expecting something yellow (a Renault) to come by me at the start, but not something red! I knew it had to be Gilles, but even so I just thought, 'where the hell did he come from?'."
- Alan Jones, recollecting when the lights went green.

[Rollo]

Pastor is beyond legend :p

He is:

http://www.hursttx.gov/ftp/Parks/Map_Images_Chisholm/ChisholmPark_Map_Legend2.gif

He knows where all the toilets are.

[anfield5]

re Pastor. Beyond a leg end is a heal :)

[anfield5]

Hard to define a legend, often drivers are called legends who simply aren't, so here is my valueless opinion.

Fangio - 5 world titles
Brabham - 3 titles, one in his own car
Clark - simply the best driver of his or most other generations.
Stewart - 3 titles and had the maiden win for 3 different teams, also his safety work saved countless lives
Lauda - rose from the dead and defeated Ferrari politics
Prost - 4 titles
Senna - flawed genius
Schumacher - 91 wins and 7 titles
Prof Sid Watkins - saved the lives of countless drivers.

I didn't include
Ascari, because apart from 2 seasons in the only competitive car (52 - 53) he didn't really do much
Moss - great driver, but always second best
Villeneuve - passed on too soon
Piquet - again great driver but not a legend
Vettel - to soon to tell
Hamilton - ditto

[Starter]

Hard to define a legend, often drivers are called legends who simply aren't, so here is my valueless opinion.

Fangio - 5 world titles
Brabham - 3 titles, one in his own car
Clark - simply the best driver of his or most other generations.
Stewart - 3 titles and had the maiden win for 3 different teams, also his safety work saved countless lives
Lauda - rose from the dead and defeated Ferrari politics
Prost - 4 titles
Senna - flawed genius
Schumacher - 91 wins and 7 titles
Prof Sid Watkins - saved the lives of countless drivers.

I didn't include
Ascari, because apart from 2 seasons in the only competitive car (52 - 53) he didn't really do much
Moss - great driver, but always second best
Villeneuve - passed on too soon
Piquet - again great driver but not a legend
Vettel - to soon to tell
Hamilton - ditto
I like your list, but more importantly I like the reasons.

[steveaki13]

Hard to define a legend, often drivers are called legends who simply aren't, so here is my valueless opinion.

Fangio - 5 world titles
Brabham - 3 titles, one in his own car
Clark - simply the best driver of his or most other generations.
Stewart - 3 titles and had the maiden win for 3 different teams, also his safety work saved countless lives
Lauda - rose from the dead and defeated Ferrari politics
Prost - 4 titles
Senna - flawed genius
Schumacher - 91 wins and 7 titles
Prof Sid Watkins - saved the lives of countless drivers.

I didn't include
Ascari, because apart from 2 seasons in the only competitive car (52 - 53) he didn't really do much
Moss - great driver, but always second best
Villeneuve - passed on too soon
Piquet - again great driver but not a legend
Vettel - to soon to tell
Hamilton - ditto

I think this is largely spot on actually.

[AAReagles]

Hard to define a legend, often drivers are called legends who simply aren't...


Senna - flawed genius
Schumacher - 91 wins and 7 titles

Since Senna falls under flawed legend - of which I certainly would not argue - could it be that Schumacher as well, be reguarded as flawed?

Reason I asked is that he did have the distinction of being the only driver to have been DQ'ed for an entire (1997) season as a result of his driving to be considered inappropriate.

[anfield5]

Since Senna falls under flawed legend - of which I certainly would not argue - could it be that Schumacher as well, be reguarded as flawed?

Reason I asked is that he did have the distinction of being the only driver to have been DQ'ed for an entire (1997) season as a result of his driving to be considered inappropriate.

Absolutely Schumi was flawed. In many ways he and Senna are/were peas in a pod, they were both brilliant, but both so driven they would cross the boundaries to win

[AAReagles]

Yes, perhaps a bit too much.

[Rollo]

Since Senna falls under flawed legend - of which I certainly would not argue - could it be that Schumacher as well, be reguarded as flawed?

Reason I asked is that he did have the distinction of being the only driver to have been DQ'ed for an entire (1997) season as a result of his driving to be considered inappropriate.

Senna was rewarded with a World Championship because of inappropriate driving.

Senna also won another World Championship by being crappier than the guy who finished second. That requires genius of a sort.

[AAReagles]

Senna was rewarded with a World Championship because of inappropriate driving.

Senna also won another World Championship by being crappier than the guy who finished second. That requires genius of a sort.

Indeed. And yet Schumacher's actions appear to speak for themselves too. Don't you think?

I should make it clear that I am no fan of Senna; because of his severe lack of judgement in Japan. Believe it or not, this first (obvious) instance of unsportsmanship display of his was unexpected and very disappointing for me and countless other fans around the globe.

I just happened to find it peculiar that a notation of criticism was placed on one driver and not, shall we say, balanced on both.

[anfield5]

I agree if you are comparing Senna and Schumi. I often have or hear/read arguments claiming Schumacher will never be as great as Senna and the cite two reasons.
1. Schumacher was at times underhanded and dodgy with his tactics. i.e. deliberately taking Villeneuve off, ditto with Hill (not Schumachers fault anyway) etc. They fail to say that Senna did exactly the same thing to Prost, twice in two years.
2. Schumacher chose team mates who would not be a threat. Again Ayrton did this way before Schumi came along. At Lotus when Nakajima moved on Derek Warwick was meant to be the new driver, but Senna vetoed this because he didn't want a team mate with the talent to put any pressure on him, hence Johnny Dumfries.

[AAReagles]

I agree if you are comparing Senna and Schumi. I often have or hear/read arguments claiming Schumacher will never be as great as Senna and the cite two reasons.
1. Schumacher was at times underhanded and dodgy with his tactics... They fail to say that Senna did exactly the same thing...
2. Schumacher chose team mates who would not be a threat. Again Ayrton did this way before Schumi...

Not to sound redundant, but I agree as well. This sort of politics I found to be detrimental for the sport. Along with the dastardly team orders bit that I became aware of since I first followed gp racing in 78' (Andretti). The Senna fans vs Schumi fans firestorm is irrelevant with me. As far as I'm concerned, both drivers earned their reputations. For better or worse.

[Rollo]

I just happened to find it peculiar that a notation of criticism was placed on one driver and not, shall we say, balanced on both.

This thread is about Senna.
Truth is, I would've revoked both their superlicences forever. Culpable driving shouldn't have been tolerated by the FIA.

[jens]

I think there is a difference between legend and all time great. I mean Gilles Villeneuve is considered a legend by some, but did not get the chance to become an all time great.

All time greats for me.

Fangio, Ascari, G. Hill, Jim Clark, Jack Brabham, Lauda, Piquet, Prost, Senna, Schumacher, Vettel (just for 4 titles in a row)

It is interesting, Steve. To try to define different phrases.:D

Legend is more like a "mythical" status. It doesn't need to attach results to get to the memory, it doesn't even need a driver to be great or have great skills for him to become legendary.

It is just everyone's personal brain memory, what they remember and what they consider as memorable, remarkable, great. Minardi is considered as a legendary F1 team, largely because they managed to stay in F1 for so long as The Back-end Team! So it is the opposite of being legendary based on performance. You are legendary based on lack of performance!

[jens]

In your opinion who else ranks as a true legend of F1?

I think for me Fangio, Clark, Senna and Schumacher are a great quartet of legends. I am often torn whether to add Prost there as well, so it is sort of 4.5 for me.:)

Behind them comes the list of "tier 2 legends" (weird phrase I know!), who were also great drivers, in some periods perhaps even the best on the grid. Here the list gets very long and I am less sure, who to add. Just to start with: Ascari, Moss, Stewart, Lauda, G.Villeneuve.

Hamilton, Alonso and Vettel also have a legitimate claim to be there. They have been a major force in F1 for some time, and in Alonso's case for more than a decade. The only reason, why it feels strange to add them is because they are active in F1 and thus do not feel like "legends" yet!

[AAReagles]

This thread is about Senna...
Culpable driving shouldn't have been tolerated by the FIA.

Yes the title does indicate it is about Senna; however the OP did ask other members about their thoughts of other possible great drivers. Which was responded accordingly.

Also, I quite agree that questionable and deliberate driving performances should be addressed with consequences.

Perhaps if Senna was penalized properly to begin with, this sort of rubbish wouldn't have been adapted by other drivers.

[anfield5]

How about Giancarlo Bahetti as a true F1 legend?

Why him? I hear you ask - didn't only ever win 1 GP?

Yes he did only win once, but it was in his first GP drive - no other driver has achieved this and it is doubtful that they will. Hamilton came close with 3rd on debut and Jaques Vileneuve finished 2nd to Damon Hill

[Rollo]

Yes he did only win once, but it was in his first GP drive - no other driver has achieved this and it is doubtful that they will.

Except:

Giuseppe Farina - British GP 1950.

[steveaki13]

How about Panis. He won the Monaco GP the hardest race to win according to ex drivers ;)

[anfield5]

Except:

Giuseppe Farina - British GP 1950.

BZZZZZZZZZZZZ wrong Rollo. Bitish Gp 1950 was NOT Farina's first GP, first WDCGP yes but he had been racing in international GPs for years before someone decided to call things a world championship :)

Plus Baghetti's only win was his first race. Farina could be included as a legend though, because he was and always will be the first World Champion and you are correct he did win the first World Championship GP

[Rollo]

BZZZZZZZZZZZZ wrong Rollo. Bitish Gp 1950 was NOT Farina's first GP, first WDCGP yes but he had been racing in international GPs for years before someone decided to call things a world championship :)


Right then, we take your definition:

Ferenc Szisz - 1906 French GP :D

By any definition of what you want to call a Grand Prix, there must have been a first one and whoever won that must've won on debut.

Maybe we call the De Dion Steam Tractor which won the first recorded motor race between Paris and Rouen in 1894 the first.

[anfield5]

Right then, we take your definition:

Ferenc Szisz - 1906 French GP :D

By any definition of what you want to call a Grand Prix, there must have been a first one and whoever won that must've won on debut.

Maybe we call the De Dion Steam Tractor which won the first recorded motor race between Paris and Rouen in 1894 the first.

:D Fair point Rollo.

I was simply saying that Farina didn't win on debut where as Baghetti won his first GP. But as you say whoever won THE first GP must have won their first GP and son on

[journeyman racer]

I am often torn whether to add Prost there as well, so it is sort of 4.5 for me.:)
How can you be torn, when overall, he's the best driver of all time so far?


How about Panis. He won the Monaco GP the hardest race to win according to ex drivers ;)
Webber likes pumping himself up.

[AndyL]

:D Fair point Rollo.

I was simply saying that Farina didn't win on debut where as Baghetti won his first GP. But as you say whoever won THE first GP must have won their first GP and son on

I believe Farina's first Grand Prix was the 1940 Tripoli Grand Prix, which he won :)

Previously he had raced in the small-capacity Voiturette formula, and in 1940 that replaced the 3-litre class as the Grand Prix category, so unless anyone knows different then I'd suspect it was his first Grand Prix. From the info I can find it seems Tripoli was the first race of the season (and the only race in the European/Mediterranean area, as Italy entered the war shortly after).

Sorry Anfield :)

[anfield5]

I believe Farina's first Grand Prix was the 1940 Tripoli Grand Prix, which he won :)

Previously he had raced in the small-capacity Voiturette formula, and in 1940 that replaced the 3-litre class as the Grand Prix category, so unless anyone knows different then I'd suspect it was his first Grand Prix. From the info I can find it seems Tripoli was the first race of the season (and the only race in the European/Mediterranean area, as Italy entered the war shortly after).

Sorry Anfield :)

Don't apologise for knowing more than I. If people did that most of the world would spend all day apologising :D

[steveaki13]

Good knowledge about Farina.

I think legend is a weird thing when not talking about the "best"

I mean someone like Moss could be high in peoples list generally for 0 world championships, while Vettel considering his 4 is lower than say Senna with 3.

Legend is by definition tough to pin down.



Andrea de Cesaris was a legend of F1.

[anfield5]

Andrea de Cesaris was a legend of F1.

... erm why?

Unless it was because he entered 214 Gp's (started 208) without winning (unlucky in Monaco 1982 when he ran out of fuel on the penultimate or last lap when leading), or maybe because he crashed/destriyed more F1 cars than any one else in history hence his nickname of Andrea de Crasheris

[steveaki13]

That was what I was going for. You can be a legend for all sorts of reasons :D

[Rollo]

... erm why?

This:


because he crashed/destriyed more F1 cars than any one else in history hence his nickname of Andrea de Crasheris

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WA1qAmz30mw

After this, he went back to the pits and told Guy Ligier that "I've had a problem with the engine".

Pure spun gold!

[anfield5]

How he survived unscathed is a mystery, especially when you look at the mud stain on his head and back

[AAReagles]

... erm why?

Unless it was because he entered 214 Gp's (started 208) without winning.... or maybe because he crashed/destroyed more F1 cars than any one else in history hence his nickname of Andrea de Crasheris

Funny that you mentioned his crash-testing adventures. Last week I was looking up 'Monza, 1981, de Cesaris' to find footage of the big shunt of the McLaren MP4/1 to observe (again - after all these years) the incredible strength of the carbon-fiber chassis. After some confusion and frustrating moments... I found out it was his teammate instead - John Watson. :p
Guess that's what I get for 'profiling.'

[anfield5]

Funny that you mentioned his crash-testing adventures. Last week I was looking up 'Monza, 1981, de Cesaris' to find footage of the big shunt of the McLaren MP4/1 to observe (again - after all these years) the incredible strength of the carbon-fiber chassis. After some confusion and frustrating moments... I found out it was his teammate instead - John Watson. :p
Guess that's what I get for 'profiling.'

Is that the crash that ripped Watty's McLaren in Half

[AAReagles]

Is that the crash that ripped Watty's McLaren in Half

Indeed it was. I initionaly saw it as hi-lites on (TBS Station's) Motorweek (Illustrated?) with Dave Despain as host. Back then, ESPN covered a few F1 races - at best - but I don't recall that Italian GP being shown. My memory fails me, as I thought the McLaren veered left instead of spinning backwards to the right. Forgot how Reutemann (Williams) used evasive action impressively, getting on the grass and as close to the barriers - as absolutely necessary. I mistakenly thought it was Alan Jones instead; possibly lagging down the field a bit as a result of nursing a thumb injured after a road rage incident with a van load of soccer players.

Kind of another reason why I regarded Jones as a 'boxer' type driver (no pun intended), like Rosburg and Mansell. Might not be pretty, but he was always a scrapper to get the job done.