Rank the drivers

[jens]

Another thread to discuss about something in mean-time.:)

Often it is fun to think, how drivers compare to each other. To exercise this in practice I created four tiers.

Tiers:
A: Hamilton, Alonso, Ricciardo, Vettel
B: Rosberg, Button, Bottas, Räikkönen, Hülkenberg, Grosjean
C: Massa, Pérez, Kvyat, Verstappen, Sainz, Nasr
D: Ericsson, Maldonado, Stevens, Merhi

Note 1: Several tier C drivers, like KVY, VES, SAI, NAS are very new to F1 and have potential to move up. Especially Verstappen, who may even have Tier 1 talent! But it is all too early. They need to prove their skills much more before even moving up to group B, where we already have very accomplished and proven drivers.

Note 2: Stevens and Merhi are impossible to rate, since they do not have a meaningful car. Based on feeder series evidence, gut feeling and how they are judged by teams I can't put them higher. Or I can leave them out altogether.

Note 3: I can't say I am convinced of putting Vettel that high. But he doesn't fit into "B" either, maybe something like inbetween. He has great opportunity to wash 2014 away as a one-off season. On the flipside I am very convinced in Ricciardo. His 2014 is up there with the best seasons I have seen being performed in F1 by a driver. And the rest of his career looks impressive too, just in rubbish cars, so nobody took notice!

More detailed comments on different drivers perhaps later on.:)

[Mia 01]

Thoose type of ranks occur on several forums. They are interesting, but, very subjective to.

[Storm]

Very subjective but then this forum business in general is ;)

Are we ranking only on current form or historically? (I mean Kimi used to be much better than he is rt now, same with Massa before and after his shunt)
A: Hamilton, Alonso, Kimi
B: Vettel, Rosberg, Bottas, Ricciardo
C: Massa, Verstappen, Button
D: the rest

[Koz]

A: Hamilton Alonso Vettel
B: Kimi Ricciardo Gosjean Rosberg Hulk
C: Massa Button Bottas Perez
Can't rate the new guys yet.
Donkey: Maldonado

[journeyman racer]

I would put Raikkonen in that first group.

[pino]

Very subjective but then this forum business in general is ;)

Are we ranking only on current form or historically? (I mean Kimi used to be much better than he is rt now, same with Massa before and after his shunt)
A: Hamilton, Alonso, Kimi
B: Vettel, Rosberg, Bottas, Ricciardo
C: Massa, Verstappen, Button
D: the rest

Totally agree with your list !

[pino]

A: Hamilton Alonso Vettel
B: Kimi Ricciardo Gosjean Rosberg Hulk
C: Massa Button Bottas Perez
Can't rate the new guys yet.
Donkey: Maldonado

Grosjean and Hulk, ahead of Bottas and Massa ? :eek:

[Hawkmoon]

A: Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel
B: Raikkonen, Bottas, Ricciardo
C: Massa, Button, Rosberg
.
.
.
F: Maldonado (the fact that this man has won the same amount of GPs as Jean Alesi is a crime against nature and proof that there is no justice in this world)

[Tazio]

This is a very subjective analysis, I'm only rating drivers that have been around a while, and to be honest I really don't feel a strong conviction for this list.


Fred and The Boss

Seb, Danny Boy, Hulk, Bottas

Kimi, Jense , Felipe, RoGro, Britany

Perez

Don't know what to do with the rest.

[jens]

Thoose type of ranks occur on several forums. They are interesting, but, very subjective to.

Of course they are subjective, because there is not scientific criteria to rank driver skills. Otherwise all the facts would be there and nothing to discuss!

And naturally tiers do not exist. It is just a method of compromise. In each tier you can question whether one or another belongs there, but you make this compromise, because you feel he doesn't belong to the other group either, and just fit in there.:)

[jens]

Very subjective but then this forum business in general is ;)

Are we ranking only on current form or historically? (I mean Kimi used to be much better than he is rt now, same with Massa before and after his shunt)


Erm. Let's put it this way. Rank both based on current form and historically. It does not mean that based on P2 in Bahrain Räikkönen is the best driver. It doesn't work like that. It also doesn't work so that Räikkönen is the best, because he was the best in 2005, so that is "historic". Just like Michael Schumacher wasn't the best in 2010-2012, even if he had been a decade ago.

My personal approach is to take the summary of last couple of years. Which means the form is "current" enough. We are not rating Massa based on 2008, but what he has done in the last few years. We also can't rate only based on last couple of races, because driver forms fluctuate. Even during a season they have better and worse periods. As the saying goes - form is temporary, but class permanent. We can evaluate, what can they do over a full season and include their general (in)consistency trends. If we evaluate last few years instead of last few races or races 10 years ago, I think the picture would be somewhat adequate.

[yodasarmpit]

For me, not so far of from Jens

The Hulk has lost some of his edge, I think losing out on a top seat yet again has left him jaded.
Verstappen looks like he may jump up a level or two when we do this again next year.
Rosberg, not in the same class as his car.
Vettel, just hanging in there at the top table.


Tiers:
A: Hamilton, Alonso, Ricciardo, Vettel
B: Rosberg, Button, Bottas, Räikkönen, Grosjean
C: Massa, Pérez, Kvyat, Verstappen, Nasr, Hülkenberg
D: Ericsson, Stevens, Merhi, Sainz
Z: Maldonado

[zako85]

Tier One: Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel, Villeneuve

Then the rest of tiers as in jens's post.

[AndyL]

Interesting that everyone apart from Taz has at least 3 drivers in their top tier, but everyone agrees on only 2 of them.
I'd go with Taz's assessment that the top tier is Alonso and Hamilton alone.

[Hawkmoon]

It's interesting how many people don't rate Vettel. You don't win 4 championships without being quick. I don't think Vettel is in the same class as Schumacher, Fangio and Prost who also won at least 4 championships. Nor do I think he's better than than Senna, Stewart and Clark who won fewer championships. He is, however, very good and it's a little unfair to denigrate his achievements because "he only won in the best car". Not a single championship has been won in a bad car. It simply doesn't happen.

[AndyL]

It's interesting how many people don't rate Vettel. You don't win 4 championships without being quick. I don't think Vettel is in the same class as Schumacher, Fangio and Prost who also won at least 4 championships. Nor do I think he's better than than Senna, Stewart and Clark who won fewer championships. He is, however, very good and it's a little unfair to denigrate his achievements because "he only won in the best car". Not a single championship has been won in a bad car. It simply doesn't happen.

Most would agree, however, that championships have been won by drivers who were perhaps not all-time legend material, but who had the best cars. Is Vettel one of those? For me, the fact that he won 4 championships doesn't provide an answer to this, because they were all with the same car and team. After 2010 we knew he was good enough to win a championship in a Newey Red Bull, and after 2013 we still knew the same.

Great achievements in multiple cars/teams are an important element of greatness as a driver. It provides a kind of proof of the driver's contribution to the team's success. I think people will change their views of Vettel if he performs exceptionally in the Ferrari. His win in Malaysia might ultimately prove more important to his legacy than his 2nd, 3rd or 4th championships, especially if it's followed by more in the same vein.

[Tazio]

These kinds of comparisons are not scientific, and for me the picture is always evolving. I probably would have put Seb in the top spot except for two reasons; the thrashing he took from Danny boy last season, and the manner in which he ruined his race in Bahrain, and that is fresh in my mind. It's only one race, but it reminded me of how often in the past he's gotten away with driving "off piste", taking advantage of very generous paved runoff areas, specifically in the high speed corners. This time he forgot about that small gravel area coming back on to the track and it bit him in the a$$. Kimi is a great driver, and only 13 points shy of his total for 19 races last season. Is he that much better this season, I doubt it? Kimi is too inconsistent, and unadaptable to rank at the top tier. Perhaps I've rated him a little low. But, if I place him higher I feel like I've done Felipe, Britany, Rogro, and Jense a disservice. I think most on this forum would put him a little higher than I have, and that is fine, I could be wrong with that, and every other one of my picks. I believe this is why, traditionally the WCC is considered the more meaningful championship. It almost always lands in the camp of the team with the best car.......
as does the WDC :idea:

[Mia 01]

I will not write down one of thoose lists, but one thought,how many talkative fans from germany are there on F1 blogs?

[Tazio]

Is this a trick question?? :p:

[Tazio]

I will not write down one of thoose lists, but one thought,how many talkative fans from germany are there on F1 blogs?Ok Mia I'll take the bait, how many are there?
I could justify the amount of rhetoric on English Blogs, and Forums compared to their German counterparts by saying something like; Germans are not as effusive as Anglos, but I avoid those kinds of generalizations, because I don't speak, or read German so I don't really know what they write about. TBH I've sold my soul to the Anglo Mafia because in my opinion their are no really good forums in The Home of the Brave, so I come here.
With all due respect could you explain what the inference was by your comment I've quoted....please?
And does that make Germans better than Anglos because they are more guarded in their opinions?
Thanks in advance,
Six Tenths :angel:

[steveaki13]

Tier A: Lewis Hamilton, Fernando Alonso, Sebastian Vettel
Tier B: Daniel Ricciardo, Valterri Bottas, Kimi Raikkonen,
Tier C: Nico Rosberg, Jenson Button, Nico Hulkenberg, Felipe Massa
Tier D: Romain Grosjean, Max Verstappen, Carlos Sainz, Dani Kyvat, Sergio Perez, Felipe Nasr
Tier E: Pastor Maldonado, Will Stevens, Marcus Ericcson,
Tier F: Roberto Merhi,


Tier ZZB: Yuji Ide :D

[Mia 01]

I´m not from Germany but, as absurd it can look, I tink that Sebastian Vettel belongs to tier A.

[kfzmeister]

I'm originally from Germany and spend enough time on German F1 forums. I can tell you that just about the same mix of F1 fans exists there, meaning that there are those that think Vettel is one of the greatest and those that are still not convinced that he is on the same level as perhaps current drivers HAM or ALO.

Btw, Austrian H. Marko recently was quoted as saying that Ricciardo is on the same level as VET.

[airshifter]

I think even viewing it as subjective it's much harder than some people make it. There are certain drivers who only gel with certain car types, some drivers that seem to be able to drive them all well, some more consistent, etc. Due to that comparing them to other drivers on that team doesn't always work, and with the car in the equation there is often bias (intentional or not) favoring one of the drivers.

Given cars equally competitive yet suited to each driver, I think there are a number of drivers that can give us quite a show and could fight hard for the WDC, including (not in any order):

Fernando
Jenson
Kimi
Lewis
Sebastian V.

Possibly a few others. As for Ricciardo, Bottas, Hulk, and the other "up and coming" drivers, I think it takes more time to see where they stand after more seasons and possible car changes.

[Koz]

Grosjean and Hulk, ahead of Bottas and Massa ? :eek:

My bad, Bottas should be in #B, Massa not so much.

[Zico]

My driver standings..

Tier 1- For me #1 has to be Alonso, simply the most complete driver and with Hamilton (probably quicker but not as complete overall) just behind him.

Tier 2- Ricciardo- possible tier 1 but needs another impressive season or two to prove it, Vettel, Raikkonen. Bottas, and possibly Hulkenberg (Just needs the right car?)

Tier 3- Rosberg, Button, Grosjean, Massa

Tier 4- Perez , Nasr, Verstappen, Sainz, Kyvat, (With the latter 3 or 4 drivers in this tier showing impressive early promise, possible tier 2/3 potential?)

Tier 5- Maldonado - fast but too hot headed/dangerous to be in F1 imo, Stevens, Ericcson, Merhi

[rjbetty]

Aw ok I'll bite...!

I did something like this at the end of 2012, ranked all current and some recent drivers at the time, and feel I did fairly well. I have much less clear an idea now...


After jotting some notes, I am finding the top 12 in particular after the first few drivers are staggeringly close, almost impossible to separate. I am going to try. I will also value all round experience and stuff to try to make separations but it's very subjective...



Bear in mind this is just my honest opinion and I've never claimed to measure each driver's ability to 0.001sec, and that's it, set in stone forever; but I am going to have a go doing this without tiers - wish me well.


This is also where I think everyone's form is at right now, not where they will be in future. So obviously Verstappen and Sainz will suffer as they are so new.


1.Hamilton - sorry everyone, no agenda here. My desire to (somehow) know the truth of how everyone stands is greater than my like or dislike of any driver, but at the mo a good car is allowing Hamilton to shine. I think he's actually becoming pretty 'complete' these days.

2.Alonso - Still super duper, though I suspect he's peaked but will still be strong for some years.

3.Vettel - maybe? Last year wasn't good enough, and the 2 above never had seasons like that. Hamilton v Button in 2011 isn't the same as Hamilton still had Jenson on performance (13-6 in quali for example) but Lewis threw tons of pts away by his own doing. He should have been 2nd in WDC. The difference between Ham and Vet is Hamilton didn't lack the performance. No hate here, just what I think till I know better. My rating of Seb is also based on his earlier career where he really impressed me.

4.Ricciardo - Maybe should be ahead of Vettel but let's see how he gets on a bit more. Hard to tell.

5.Rosberg - Hugely solid and fast, but it's always been felt he has never 'transcended' a car, though can still be devastatingly effective.

6.Raikkonen (post rally comeback) - I always felt, based on early careers, that Kimi's ultimate ability was better than Button's, and he would be higher on this list. Even in 2009 he could conjure up some magic in Spa, but post comeback I'm not he sure if he, like Rosberg, has managed to 'transcend' his car, though has put in some great tyre preservation drives (Australia 2013). Depending on form can also be much lower ranked too...

7.Button - Maybe I'm rating him a bit low as he seems pretty well matched with Alonso. I think in equal cars with Rosberg, Nico would beat him in quali over a season. Jenson does seem to be one who can put in special drives sometimes though.



Other Drivers
Now it gets tricky, so on second thought I don't think I will actually rank this bunch... I feel Hulkenberg, Perez and Grosjean in particular are looking masked by their cars. Put any of them in a top team and suddenly they'd make waves. Perception is such a strange thing.

I'm guessing that Hulkenberg must still be at least equal with Bottas since he has a full 2 years more experience. I'm not sure he can be bad enough to actually be behind Valtteri right now (but soon may well be as the Finn climbs his steeper learning curve).

I suspect that in his 5th year, Perez is now every bit the equal of Massa. So maybe the line-ups of Williams and Force India could at this current moment be as near to exactly equal as you can get?

Romain Grosjean While Maldonado remains rubbish at racecraft, his actual speed seems underrated. Yet Grosjean has outqualified him 100% this season. I am not impressed too much by the Lotus chassis, considering it's engine. I am guessing that Grosjean is able to have just a little more searing speed than Hulkenberg, who I feel is too conservative, though I rate Hulk as more solid and consistent still. Grosjean still has more experience than Bottas, and I am thinking he too is maybe equal to Bottas right now.

Bottas has the highest learning curve however, so ample scope to move clearly ahead, and very soon.


So in summary: Grosjean, Hulkenberg, Bottas separated by nothing, with Perez and Massa (who's on great form right now) just a little behind.

Immediately behind this I put Kvyat, in 13th! Car problems make it unclear right now but he's maybe looking shaky. Mind you, so did Vettel early 2008 so let's see. I am convinced he will pull through no problem.

14th is Maldonado, very much on pace, not giving that much weight to poor racecraft etc.



The Others
15.Max Verstappen: It may be a surprise, but remember his inexperience. How can he be right in the mix of Bottas etc when they have so much experience on him. No doubt at all Max will climb the rankings soon.

16.Same for Carlos Sainz, who as a guess, is similar to Perez...?

17.Felipe Nasr next, pretty close to Sainz.

18.Marcus Ericsson - Not bad, nothing else to say.

19.Roberto Merhi - Feel he's better than Stevens, but must be suffering with less experience and probably worse parts etc.

20.Will Stevens - The new Max Chilton. He's ok.



There I tried. I also wanted to say. Some drivers from the Bottas group could possibly be ahead of some drivers ahead of them now but I'm not sure yet.

[zako85]

I don't know why Vettel should be ranked below say Hamilton. Both Hamilton and Vettel had phenomenally good first full-time seasons in F1. Hamilton nearly won the WDC driving for a top team in 2007, but Vettel won a GP while driving Red Bull's "B" team car in 2008, and has beaten the mother-ship team itself. In his second F1 season in 2008, Hamilton became the champion, but in his second F1 season Vettel in 2009 gave Red Bull the first win ever in the history of that team, and he took the championship fight all the way to one of the last races of the season. Subsequently, both of them met some blues. Hamilton shockingly was beaten by his teammate in 2011, and Vettel was humiliated by his teammate in 2014. These guys are very much on the same level IMHO. Time will tell who is the best.

[truefan72]

My driver standings..

Tier 1- For me #1 has to be Alonso, simply the most complete driver and with Hamilton (probably quicker but not as complete overall) just behind him.

Tier 2- Ricciardo- possible tier 1 but needs another impressive season or two to prove it, Vettel, Raikkonen. Bottas, and possibly Hulkenberg (Just needs the right car?)

Tier 3- Rosberg, Button, Grosjean, Massa

Tier 4- Perez , Nasr, Verstappen, Sainz, Kyvat, (With the latter 3 or 4 drivers in this tier showing impressive early promise, possible tier 2/3 potential?)

Tier 5- Maldonado - fast but too hot headed/dangerous to be in F1 imo, Stevens, Ericcson, Merhi

I think I agree 90% with this list. and the only change would be that Hamilton is just about equal to alonso. both have shown to be equally adept in outperforming their cars

Also maldonado, is clearly a tier 3 driver, whether one likes him personally or not. the guy is talented behind the wheel and on a good day could be a race winner
for example, for all his incidents, they probably have been less than what grosjean did in his career which got him a 1 race suspension, and IMO he is a superior driver to massa, who honestly belongs in tier 4, if for no other reason than his complete inability to drive in inclement conditions and was pretty much coached around every corner during races.

I also think that perez is a solid tier 3 driver to me.

[truefan72]

I don't know why Vettel should be ranked below say Hamilton. Both Hamilton and Vettel had phenomenally good first full-time seasons in F1. Hamilton nearly won the WDC driving for a top team in 2007, but Vettel won a GP while driving Red Bull's "B" team car in 2008, and has beaten the mother-ship team itself. In his second F1 season in 2008, Hamilton became the champion, but in his second F1 season Vettel in 2009 gave Red Bull the first win ever in the history of that team, and he took the championship fight all the way to one of the last races of the season. Subsequently, both of them met some blues. Hamilton shockingly was beaten by his teammate in 2011, and Vettel was humiliated by his teammate in 2014. These guys are very much on the same level IMHO. Time will tell who is the best.

Vettel ranks below Hamilton and alonso, because he simply is not a better driver than them. He was a perfect product of a talented driver and a beyond dominant machinery. And yes some might say he outclassed Webber, but i honestly feel that webber's cars was more often than not an afterthought to RBR. When Webber did his thing he was just as quick as Vettel and in quite a few case outshone him when they both where in the zone. Multi 21 tells you everything you need to know, If webber rightfully won that race, the entire season might have taken a different trajectory, and lets also remember that Webber chucked away his WDC championship in 2010 when he crashed out in Korea. In 2014 Vettel was completely embarrassed by Riciardo, the likes we have never seen before.

Hamilton got the measure of Alonso hie rookie year and even then Alonso was not embarrassed the way Vettel was. I rank vettel below those 2 and on the strength of his results gets him above kimi and Hulkenberg and Ricciardo, even thought he argument can be made that as of right now Riciardo is probably better than Vettel.

[Zico]

I think I agree 90% with this list. and the only change would be that Hamilton is just about equal to alonso. both have shown to be equally adept in outperforming their cars

Also maldonado, is clearly a tier 3 driver, whether one likes him personally or not. the guy is talented behind the wheel and on a good day could be a race winner
for example, for all his incidents, they probably have been less than what grosjean did in his career which got him a 1 race suspension, and IMO he is a superior driver to massa, who honestly belongs in tier 4, if for no other reason than his complete inability to drive in inclement conditions and was pretty much coached around every corner during races.

I also think that perez is a solid tier 3 driver to me.


Yes, maybe I wasn't clear enough but I did try to make clear that I feel Hamilton is very, very close to Alonso overall, no argument there..

Maldonado is very quick, no question and on a good day in terms of pace yes he is right up there with the best of them but in my book being quick is only a part of the measure of a driver, looking at the bigger picture ie; from a team boss perspective and if money was not a factor to consider I'd actually choose Massa (Who yes, I'll concede, is arguably Tier 4) over Maldonado for my No2 (or reserve driver) seat :D, A- because Maldonado would be highly likely to wreck a disproportionate amount of my chassis's and place a huge workload on the rest of the technical/garage staff, a workload that would be far better utillised in car development and B- because he is a real danger to other drivers in F1. I have no personal dislike of the guy but his crash rate/danger factor is simply unacceptable.

Grosjean, did have a period in his career where he was as dangerous as Maldonado but he has clearly re-evaluated his approach to his driving in recent seasons and his mistake/crash record has improved massively, Maldo on the other hand, for whatever reason, doesn't seem to have been able to do that. If you have any stats on this that might change my mind I'd be more than happy to re-evaluate.

I found my Tier 3 and 4 to be the most difficult to determine, current vs recent form vs potential.. but yeah, Perez Tier 3? He is a solid driver, I guess rating him a Tier 4 is very unfair on him, consider it amended. ;)


Edit- Maldo does seem to have improved (very) recently, found this... http://hasmaldonadocrashedtoday.com/ ;)

[Zico]

The list of every Pastor Maldonado crash & incident…


2011 Malaysian Grand Prix - Spins in the pitlane and damages the car in Practice 2.

2011 Chinese Grand Prix- Spins at Turn 6 and beaches the car in Practice 1.

2011 Turkish Grand Prix - Damages the car after his second spin in Practice 1.

2011 Monaco Grand Prix - Collides with Lewis Hamilton whilst being overtaken on Lap 73. Retires from the race.

2011 Hungarian Grand Prix - Speeds in the pitlane and serves a drive through penalty.

2011 Belgian Grand Prix - Crashes into Lewis Hamilton whilst heading to the pits during qualifying. Receives a grid penalty for doing so.

2011 Italian Grand Prix - Spins into the wall coming out of parabolica during qualifying.

2011 Japanese Grand Prix - Runs off at high speed over the grass in Practice 1 and stops the car on track shortly afterwards.

2011 Korean Grand Prix - Hits a bollard entering the pitlane and receives a drive through penalty.

2011 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Receives a drive through penalty for ignoring blue flags then receives a 30 second penalty for continuing to ignore blue flags.

2011 Brazilian Grand Prix - Crashes into the wall by himself at Turn 3 on lap 28.

2012 Australian Grand Prix - Collides with Romain Grosjean on lap two. Grosjean is pushed off the track and retires with damage. Crashes into the wall by himself on the final lap.

2012 Malaysian Grand Prix - Runs off the track during qualifying and damages the car.

2012 Monaco Grand Prix - Crashes into Sergio Perez in Practice 3. Receives a ten place grid penalty for doing so. Crashes hard into the wall at Casino Square by himself in Practice 3. Crashes into the back of Pedro De La Rosa on lap 1 with enough force to retire them both.

2012 Canadian Grand Prix - Crashes into the wall by himself during qualifying.

2012 European Grand Prix - Crashes into Lewis Hamilton when rejoining the circuit and receives a penalty for doing so. Hamilton retires.

2012 British Grand Prix - Crashes into Sergio Perez on lap 12. Receives a reprimand and a fine for doing so. Perez retires.

2012 Hungarian Grand Prix - Crashes into Paul di Resta on lap 48. Receives a drive through penalty for doing so.

2012 Belgian Grand Prix - Blocks Nico Hulkenberg during qualifying and receives a grid penalty for doing so. Jumps the start and receives a penalty for doing so. Crashes into the back of Timo Glock on Lap 5 and receives a penalty for doing so.

2012 Indian Grand Prix - Collides with Kamui Kobayashi on lap 32, runs off track and picks up a puncture.

2012 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Collides with Mark Webber on lap 23.

2012 Brazilian Grand Prix - Misses the weight check during qualifying and receives a reprimand for doing so.

2013 Australian Grand Prix - Spins out of the race by himself at Turn 1 on lap 25.

2013 Malaysian Grand Prix - Runs off the road by himself and damages the car on lap 14.

2013 Spanish Grand Prix - Speeds in the pitlane and receives a penalty for doing so.

2013 Monaco Grand Prix - Collides with Giedo van der Garde and damages both cars on lap 1. Collides with Max Chilton and hits the barriers on lap 44. Chilton is penalised.

2013 Canadian Grand Prix - Spins into the wall and damages the car at Turn 3 in Practice 1. Crashes into the back of Adrian Sutil and damages the car on lap 7. Receives a penalty for doing so.

2013 Belgian Grand Prix - Collides with Adrian Sutil and damages the car on lap 28. Crashes into Paul di Resta on his way into pitlane and receives a penalty for doing so. Di Resta retires.

2013 Singapore Grand Prix - Crashes into the wall at Turn 13 by himself in Practice 2.

2013 Japanese Grand Prix - Crashes into the barrier at Turn 9 by himself in Practice 2. Collides with Valtteri Bottas on the last corner of the last lap. Bottas runs off the track.

2013 United States Grand Prix - Collides with Adrian Sutil and damages the car on lap 1.

2013 Brazilian Grand Prix - Collides with Jean Eric Vergne and spins on lap 65.

2014 Australian Grand Prix - Spins and beaches the car by himself in qualifying.

2014 Bahrain Grand Prix - Runs off the road and damages the car in Practice 2. Crashes into the back of Esteban Gutierrez after the apex of Turn 1 on lap 48. Receives a penalty for doing so. Gutierrez flips over and retires.

2014 Chinese Grand Prix - Veers off the road whilst looking at his steering wheel in Practice 1. Crashes in the pitlane entry in Practice 2.

2014 Spanish Grand Prix - Crashes into the wall by himself at Turn 3 in qualifying. Crashes into Marcus Ericsson on lap 1 and receives a penalty for doing so.

2014 British Grand Prix - Collides with Esteban Gutierrez on lap 47. Gutierrez runs off the road with damage.

2014 Hungarian Grand Prix - Collides with Jules Bianchi and spins on lap 15.

2014 Belgian Grand Prix - Crashes into the wall by himself in Practice 2.

2014 Singapore Grand Prix - Crashes into the wall by himself in Practice 2.

2014 United States Grand Prix - Speeds behind the Safety Car and receives a penalty for doing so.

2015 Australian Grand Prix - Gets hit by Felipe Nasr, keeps the throttle open, and spins into the wall on lap 1.


That looks unbelievable when you see it like that. Unfortunately I cant find the same stats for Grosjean but despite an early blip in the 2013 season I don't recall him being involved in near half as many incidents even since the start of 2013... would be interesting to make a direct comparison tho.

[AndyL]

The list of every Pastor Maldonado crash & incident...

At least he's getting better... if the trend continues he's only due 7 more incidents this year.

[Zico]

At least he's getting better... if the trend continues he's only due 7 more incidents this year.

Yeah, that would be one less than last year, maybe Ferrari will then come knocking.

[jens]

There is no way I can rate Maldonado highly. Leaving aside the Manor drivers, the only one I could possibly think is inferior to Pastor is Ericsson. Of course you could argue about the likes of Kvyat, since he is young and not shown much, but against a bit more experienced drivers Pastor remains consistently short.

That he can put in a couple of good drives per season, doesn't show much. Many drivers can do that. Sato had several good drives each year. What matters is consistency, which is much harder to achieve.

Let's put it this way. In bowling I can also hit strike X once or twice during a game, but my overall score still isn't much. Getting one shot right isn't that hard. But it is damn hard to do it consistently.:D

Oh... and about crash count. Maybe Grosjean and Maldonado had a similar crash rate in 2012, but since then no way. Grosjean has improved immensely, and Maldonado has not, crashing still lots each year. I am struggling to remember the last Grosjean crash TBH?!

[rjbetty]

I will try and rank the drivers just based on early 2015 form. I didn't know whether it would be best to start a new thread or hijack this one.

Lewis Hamilton - 9.0
Not much to say. Seems to have stepped up/not had back luck skewing the way his results look. For the most part would have to be close to 10.0 but he has shown some imperfections such as not having quite the race pace of Rosberg in Malaysia, and not getting it together for Spain, meaning he doesn't look quite as invincible right now.

Fernando Alonso, Daniel Ricciardo, Sebastian Vettel - 8.5
It's not easy to tell when all 3 drive cars with wildly different competitiveness. No reason to think Alonso or Dan have slumped. In fact I'd say Dan looks to be getting pretty much everything possible out of the RB. As for Seb, I felt 9.0 would be too high given Kimi has at least matched him in races, but 8.0 also too low.

Romain Grosjean, Nico Rosberg, Valtteri Bottas, Nico Hulkenberg, Jenson Button - 8.0
It's so easy to forget about drivers like Grosjean and Hulkenberg, who look invisible. Too often, we all seem to fail to fully separate car and driver performance. How highly would we rate Grosjean and Hulkenberg were they team mates at Ferrari for example? Yet accurately separating car and driver performance isn't easy ain't it?

Grosjean has outqualified and beaten Maldonado every time. Sometimes in races Pastor seemed slightly quicker but Romain brought the car home and has all 16pts. Can he really do much more?

Rosberg hasn't looked so hot so far this season, until Spain. I'm not sure he really slumped as much as Hamilton simply hasn't started 25pts behind this time, or had qualifying mechanical failures - thus this season has been a truer picture of the difference between them - it's just more visible now. Nevertheless you couldn't fault him in Spain, and it just goes to show that you can never count N.Rosberg out - which must be a sign of a very top driver.

Bottas had a slightly average start by his standards but looking deeper has done just as well. He hurt his back and still suffered the effects for a while. In races he is pretty much unbeaten by his team-mate and now ahead in pts despite being 1 down.

Hulkenberg looks invisible in a Force India, yet I feel were he in a Ferrari he would be doing every bit as good as Raikkonen. His race results vs Perez is a concern though.

Button is the hardest to quantify. Does he automatically get higher ranking by being a WDC, or has he still got it? Seems pretty well matched with Alonso so I can't put him lower than this.


Kimi Raikkonen, Felipe Massa, Sergio Perez - 7.5
Kimi has looked better this year but in truth far off in quali. Has had all the bad luck though and in races, has generally, if anything, had an edge on Vettel. Refuelling may hurt him though? I do in all honesty though, think he is slightly over his hill, and as you can see, I believe quite a few other drivers are already on his current level, but just don't have the car to show it yet.

Massa started 2015 very strongly, outqualifying Bottas 3-0. This does however, remind me of his false dawn in 2013, after which he faded again. I suppose it will be the same this time as Valtteri is already asserting himself.

Sergio Perez is another invisible driver, but how good would he look in a Ferrari or a Mercedes? Has beaten Hulkenger handily in most races, despite starting behind.


Daniil Kvyat, Max Verstappen - 6.5
I'm willing to give Kvyat the benefit of the doubt as he has had almost all the problems at RB. I will give him more time to settle in.

It's no great surprise that the Max V doubters have been proven wrong, and sure enough, he would have a swag of points right now - upwards of 16pts - only mechanical failures costing him.

Carlos Sainz - 6.0
Examining the races of the lesser heralded STR driver also shows some interesting findings. Looked on for at least 7th in Melbourne, finished 8th in Malaysia, despite starting down the back through no fault of his own iirc, then 9th in Spain. However he seemed nowhere in China and Bahrain, not sure why.

Felipe Nasr, Pastor Maldonado - 5.5
Great job bagging that 5th, Felipe II, but only been so-so since.

Maldonado has been pretty quick in some races. I will give him the benefit of the doubt as collisions in all 5 races, seem to have not been his fault. Going off in China pitlane again was though. Despite bad luck, 0pts still unimpressive.

Marcus Ericsson - 4.0
Not much to say. Not awful but no future great. Nice having someone from Sweden around though.

Will Stevens - 3.0
Is doing all that can be asked.

Roberto Merhi - 2.5
I feel he is getting a raw deal compared to lead driver Stevens. I truly don't think Manor mean any harm, it's just that they're in no position to provide equal treatment right now though they'd really want to.

[rjbetty]

The ultimate driver's championship I tried out in Grand Prix 2 was largely based on the post above, just fyi. :)

[N4D13]

I'm surprised that so many people continue rating Verstappen over Sainz in my perception, which I feel is not really representative of their actual performances so far. I think this actually has to do with all the Verstappen hype: people have been following young Max and saying "oh, well, he's actually quite good", but at the same time they might have neglected to follow Sainz's progress with the same degree of interest.

Anyway, right now Sainz is 5-2 in qualifying (if you count Monaco as a win for Sainz, otherwise 4-3), and 1-1 in the races where neither driver retired due to a reliability issue. Both drivers have had their blips (a spin in China for Carlos, an accident in Monaco for Max), but overall, I feel that both have been doing a great job so far considering that they're rookies.

I think they're actually too close to tell which one is doing a better job, but I would simply remark that maybe people have been focusing too much on one of the drivers...? :p

[Robinho]

I'm surprised that so many people continue rating Verstappen over Sainz in my perception, which I feel is not really representative of their actual performances so far. I think this actually has to do with all the Verstappen hype: people have been following young Max and saying "oh, well, he's actually quite good", but at the same time they might have neglected to follow Sainz's progress with the same degree of interest.

Anyway, right now Sainz is 5-2 in qualifying (if you count Monaco as a win for Sainz, otherwise 4-3), and 1-1 in the races where neither driver retired due to a reliability issue. Both drivers have had their blips (a spin in China for Carlos, an accident in Monaco for Max), but overall, I feel that both have been doing a great job so far considering that they're rookies.

I think they're actually too close to tell which one is doing a better job, but I would simply remark that maybe people have been focusing too much on one of the drivers...? :p

Maybe it's because whilst they are actually very close in on track performance so far, Max is only 17, a full 3 years younger than Carlos. As impressive as Sainz Jr has been so far (and I am impressed) that just enhances the reputation and potential of his even younger and less experienced teammate. For me they look like both being superstars.

Sent from my 0PJA10 using Tapatalk

[jens]

I'm surprised that so many people continue rating Verstappen over Sainz in my perception, which I feel is not really representative of their actual performances so far.:p

Remember last year. Vergne beat/outscored Kvyat by 21-8 or something like that in the points. But Red Bull promoted Kvyat and Vergne was sent out of F1 altogether.

Also Räikkönen was hyped far more despite getting beaten by Heidfeld in 2001.

There are more examples than that.

I think it is believed Verstappen has more long-term potential even if Sainz is a bit better right now.

But of course we will see, what the future brings. It is easily possible Max is overhyped. Though I have to say I have been very impressed with him at times.

The issue currently is that we have never had a 17-y-o driver in F1. And it is just a shot in the dark to guess how much improvement potential he has. We have seen some drivers enter F1 by storm and not really improve later on. Who knows, maybe Max is so well-prepared he is close to his peak already?! That would be the worse case scenario for him. Because the expectation is that a 17-y-o kid has lots of improvement potential in F1 terms.

[Firstgear]

I am struggling to remember the last Grosjean crash TBH?!

Still struggling? :)

[jens]

Still struggling? :)

Nothing lasts forever I guess.:p: