The Sauber Van der Garde Dilemna

[truefan72]

http://en.espnf1.com/sauber/motorsport/story/193755.html

So the court ruling is coming Down on Wednesday

Here's my 2 cents.
I think GVdG has a legitimate case to be made (as does sutil btw) and we shall see what the court rules.
It is a rather odd situation though if he wins, because it would be interesting to see if the seat is actually given to him or they just pay him, but let him pine away.
From GVdG situation, it must be rather odd to insist on driving for a team that doesn't want you. Unless he is simply looking for a financial compensation.
A swiss court already ruled in his favor.

Now to the bigger issue at hand, This situation and the way Sauber has gone about their business epitomizes the worst of these midfield teams.
I understand that money is an important, if not overwhelming part of the sport, but 2 pay drivers is a bit much. And yes they hare pay drivers.
All they have assured themselves is to stay in limbo because neither of these drivers is going to do anything for them.
So they have the money, but will not get the results, meaning it is just going to be downward spiral for them.
No results means no prize money or a much lower amount, which means they need more money to stay afloat , which means they need a bigger dollar value pay driver, and so the cycle continues.

to me a sutil/Van de Garde lineup is much stronger than an erricson/nasre lineup, and with a half decent car will probably get a few points here and there.
Even just keeping one or the other would benefit Sauber more than two pay drivers.
And finally, from a business standpoint, it just makes the team less attractive to potential drivers as well as sponsors with this kind of messy management

[Bagwan]

They've come out saying that it would be foolish to put him in the car , using words like "dangerous" and even "death" , so , don't expect him to drive .

It's just another symptom of the disease .
I can't imagine the pressures involved with them going for the drivers they chose , but it does seem pretty obvious that at least one experienced driver would have been preferable .

To have it end up looking as "messy" as it does , it must have been life or death for the team .


There's a long debate about how some pay drivers have come good , but the term is still generally used with a liberal amount of disdain , as it's assumed there are others who could serve better .
And , nothing serves better than a public display of desperation like this , to show that the sport needs a real overhaul , just to keep the wheels on the track .

In a really screwed up way , Sauber is doing the sport a favour , displaying the dirty laundry for all to see what must be done to stay afloat .

[driveace]

It would be much better if drivers were chosen on ability rather than how much CASH they can afford !
but then in life the guy with the most dosh gets the Rolls Royce and the guy with little or no dosh gets the Corsa

[Rollo]

F1 driver Giedo van der Garde's application successful, full judgment will be posted and made available @F1 @ausgrandprix @SauberF1Team
- Supreme Court of Vic, via Twitter (@SCVSupremeCourt), 11th Mar 2015

[anfield5]

This is really odd. If GvdG has a formal signed contract, then he has a contract that legally should be binding, ergo he should be driving. If it is only a verbal agreement, then sorry Geido.

What happens now? If he has won the caes (as it appears) will Sauber have to kick Ericsson or Nasr aside? What of their contracts? If Sauber are forced to take GvdG on as a driver how can they possibly work together? Can Sauber get around things by letting him drive in Aus, then firing him because he isn't up to the job before Malaysia?

or... is GvdG simply after a payout from a nearly broke F1 team?

[CNR]

http://www.9news.com.au/national/2015/03/11/03/34/f1-driver-to-learn-aust-grand-prix-fate

F1 driver wins bid to drive in Melb GP
Read more at http://www.9news.com.au/national/2015/03/11/03/34/f1-driver-to-learn-aust-grand-prix-fate#6H6f0leW1AYQzecM.99

[The Black Knight]

http://www.9news.com.au/national/2015/03/11/03/34/f1-driver-to-learn-aust-grand-prix-fate

F1 driver wins bid to drive in Melb GP
Read more at http://www.9news.com.au/national/2015/03/11/03/34/f1-driver-to-learn-aust-grand-prix-fate#6H6f0leW1AYQzecM.99

Yeah, I've been following this with quite interest. I'm a vehement supporter of VdG in this case. I strongly believe that if you sign a contract you should have to keep to the T&C's of it unless both parties mutually agree a separation clause after signature. In this case, I'm afraid for Sauber, that they signed the contract which has now been legally upheld in both a Swiss and Australian court.Now they will find themsevles in the situation that, because Nasr and Ericsson both hold a contract as well, both those drivers may take them to court and win. They will have to pay off the drivers or run a third car. This is a mess of Sauber's own doing and that's it. I've no sympathy for them and I'm delighted that VdG won the case.

Also, this notion of safety being a concern is absolute rubbish. F1 drivers often move into cars at short notice. It's not like tomorrow morning is going to be the first lap of his career. What a desperate argument on Sauber's side. They know their Goose is cooked.

[AndyL]

From the story CNR linked to: "Giedo van der Garde won a court decision to force F1 team Sauber to reinstate him after they dumped him..."

This all seems very strange to me. For a court to order specific performance as a remedy in a dispute such as this sounds highly unusual. You might expect an order for specific performance in a case over transfer of ownership of some unique item, but in an employment dispute?
Of course it's possible that the media is simply doing its usual crap job of reporting the actual facts when it comes to the law or science.

[truefan72]

Yeah, I've been following this with quite interest. I'm a vehement supporter of VdG in this case. I strongly believe that if you sign a contract you should have to keep to the T&C's of it unless both parties mutually agree a separation clause after signature. In this case, I'm afraid for Sauber, that they signed the contract which has now been legally upheld in both a Swiss and Australian court.Now they will find themsevles in the situation that, because Nasr and Ericsson both hold a contract as well, both those drivers may take them to court and win. They will have to pay off the drivers or run a third car. This is a mess of Sauber's own doing and that's it. I've no sympathy for them and I'm delighted that VdG won the case.

Also, this notion of safety being a concern is absolute rubbish. F1 drivers often move into cars at short notice. It's not like tomorrow morning is going to be the first lap of his career. What a desperate argument on Sauber's side. They know their Goose is cooked.

I agree completely

[Mia 01]

I don´t Think he will drive for Sauber in Melbourne.

[truefan72]

From the story CNR linked to: "Giedo van der Garde won a court decision to force F1 team Sauber to reinstate him after they dumped him..."

This all seems very strange to me. For a court to order specific performance as a remedy in a dispute such as this sounds highly unusual. You might expect an order for specific performance in a case over transfer of ownership of some unique item, but in an employment dispute?
Of course it's possible that the media is simply doing its usual crap job of reporting the actual facts when it comes to the law or science.

OK lets get some facts clear
He won the court case in the Swiss and now the Australian courts because he had a very valid contract that specifically stated that he was to be given a race seat in 2015.
Sauber can argue all they want but this was clearly a misstep on their part and rightfully should pay the consequences for their shortsighted actions.
If they were smart about it, they would pay up the required amount to release him from this contract. Something they should have done in the first place before signing the other 2.
But they callously didn't and thought he was just going to go away without a fight because typically drivers are told not to fight these matters if they want an opportunity to drive again in the F1 cabal.
GVdG made the right call for himself because that notion is stupid and implies that other F1 teams would not sign a driver who complains about being unfairly mistreated. Seats are hard to come by and who is to say he will ever race again if he just went away. Then there is the matter of money, time and investment he made to the outfit.

As to the other 2 drivers, to me it is akin to someone who was married and then goes ahead and marries another woman. IMO that 2nd spouse is rendered illegitimate by the fact that there already is a first spouse and thus any rights they think they have are superseded by the needs of the first one.

Sauber are a mess. They could have signed erriccson as a 3rd driver and promised him a seat for 2016 after GVdG leaves. Something the less than impressive erricson could have used, given his abysmal performance last year.

[anfield5]

The question then comes up about can a team legally replace a driver during the season, if there is no specific clause in their contract relating to driver performance. i.e. if .... lets say Kimi is having another shocker of a season, can Ferrari put JEV in the car instead, or will that be in breach of his contract to race for 2015.

[steveaki13]

Teams have always replaced drivers, so why cant Sauber just do this after one race or something.

Anyway I have not had time to read everything, can someone explain to me how, a driver force a team to let him race?

[anfield5]

Simple, if he has signed a contract with the team stating that he has a race seat with them for 2015, and the team have also signed the contract. They are entering into a binding agreement, as with any written contract. Ergo if GvdG has such a contact with Sauber, then Sauber are obliged by law to honor it.

[steveaki13]

but since year dot, drivers have been replaced. Sometimes teams have gone through 6 or 7 drivers at the back of the field.

[anfield5]

True, and I would guess that Sauber, in the terms of the contract could replace him if he wasn't performing, which is different than reneging on the contract. (even though I have argued the other side of this earlier on - devils advocate etc :)).

Any way you look at this it is messy. I can't imagine this sort of thing happening if Peter Sauber was still running things.

[CNR]

http://www.9news.com.au/national/2015/03/12/03/36/f1-driver-s-aust-gp-bid-in-court-again
"
A Formula One driver's bid to force Swiss team Sauber to let him race in the Australian Grand Prix continues on Thursday.

Sauber is appealing after Giedo van der Garde won a court ruling on Wednesday allowing him to drive in the race despite the team dumping him.

The team appealed the decision and the Supreme Court of Victoria will hear the appeal from 9.30am (AEDT).



Sauber had argued it would take two weeks to custom-fit a seat for Mr van der Garde, but the 29-year-old said it could be done much faster.

Read more at http://www.9news.com.au/national/2015/03/12/03/36/f1-driver-s-aust-gp-bid-in-court-again#QI3RjkI46RDfKO3F.99"

[dj_bytedisaster]

Sauber have just been hammered the worst way possible. Kaltenborn's Ponzi scheme collapsed and the fucking bitch destroyed Peter Sauber's life work. Shall she burn in hell.

[truefan72]

The question then comes up about can a team legally replace a driver during the season, if there is no specific clause in their contract relating to driver performance. i.e. if .... lets say Kimi is having another shocker of a season, can Ferrari put JEV in the car instead, or will that be in breach of his contract to race for 2015.

It is quite simple really...they come up with a buyout clause. As any reasonable team would.

[I am evil Homer]

Court dismisses Sauber appeal: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/118010

'Reason' and 'Sauber' don't seem to co-exist. If there's no clause they're royally screwed...either way, legally GvdG is meant to be in the car in Oz (minimum). If there's a performance clause he needs to race to activate it so I think one of the other guys is going to miss out come this weekend.

Or Sauber holds their hands up, says, 'we're wrong' and pays off vdG's contract. I think he deserves a shot, given Ericsson is hardly proven to be an amazing driver.

[henners88]

I can't see it being a nice atmosphere in a team that have made it very clear publicly they regret signing him. I hope he gets a good pay out and they have done the dirty on him good and proper.

[CNR]

http://www.9news.com.au/national/2015/03/12/03/36/f1-driver-s-aust-gp-bid-in-court-again
things look a bit F**Ked Up
"
Jim Peters QC, for van der Garde, launched contempt of court action against Sauber late on Thursday, claiming the team was in defiance of the court order.

He said Sauber had made no effort to reinstate van der Garde, and sought to seize the team's cars to ensure they complied with the court's ruling.

Justice Clyde Croft ordered Sauber to deliver details of their assets in Australia by 9.30am on Friday, ahead of a contempt of court hearing.
Read more at http://www.9news.com.au/national/2015/03/12/03/36/f1-driver-s-aust-gp-bid-in-court-again#gQzvIKOqJ4d6aJD1.99"

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/australian-formula-one-grand-prix-dutch-f1-driver-giedo-van-der-garde-learns-fate/story-fni0fit3-1227258068584
"He also wants CEO Monisha Kaltenborn’s passport seized, stopping her leaving Australia, until contempt of court proceedings are heard.

The new proceedings were sparked after Sauber racing officials refused to back the Dutch driver or commit to comply with court orders to let him race. The fresh challenge came just minutes after the Court of Appeal dismissed a bid by the Swiss race team to overturn an order to reinstate van der Garde.
A lawyer for Sauber’s two remaining drivers — Marcus Ericsson and Felipe Nasr — told the appeal hearing the pair feared they would be prosecuted for being in contempt of court if they raced.

Jim Peters QC, for Van der Garde, said the drivers wouldn’t be prosecuted.
"

[Bagwan]

There is also the issue of no super-licence for Van der Garde .
Apparently , it takes 14 days , according to Saward .

Reinstated or not , he cannot race without it .

[Mia 01]

He wont race and he and his father in law has an agenda against the Sauber team.

[AndyL]

What a horrible mess. Looks like one of those cases where there will be no winners bar the lawyers.

[Robinho]

There is also the issue of no super-licence for Van der Garde .
Apparently , it takes 14 days , according to Saward .

Reinstated or not , he cannot race without it .

Surly he has a super licence, he's already raced in F1 in the last 2 years?

[AndyL]

Surly he has a super licence, he's already raced in F1 in the last 2 years?

They do have to pay a fee for it every year, so presumably there is some sort of annual renewal process.

[Robinho]

You'd assume he would have kept it up to date if he was after a seat

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Sauber can help fast track the super licence process.....if they want to.

[anfield5]

Sauber can help fast track the super licence process.....if they want to.

Yeah we can all see THAT happening :D

[The Black Knight]

Surly he has a super licence, he's already raced in F1 in the last 2 years?

He can get a temporary license. If he isn't on the grid in FP1 I see no reason why the court cannot ban Sauber from racing for being in contempt of court and arrest Monisha. Personally, at this stage, I would be in favor of this happening and her seeing some jail time if VdG isn't in the grid in a few hours time.

[Robinho]

The alternative being Sauber pay him off to get out of the contract the courts have upheld

[Koz]

The alternative being Sauber pay him off to get out of the contract the courts have upheld

Don't think Boekhoorn is after money from Sauber.
Maybe he just wants to make his little princess and her husband happy?

[CNR]

FIA will not give him a superlicence

[truefan72]

So more context to the story
Sky Sports is reporting that GVdG had also paid $8 million upfront for his 2015 ride.
thus making the sauber position even worse.
and now they decide to sit out P1
shameful from sauber

[Tazio]

Shambolic dawg, and I used to like Sauber! :(

[Rollo]

This is getting weird. Apparently bailiffs are ready to arrest team personnel. This whole thing is beyond sense.

[Mifune]

Sauber have just been hammered the worst way possible. Kaltenborn's Ponzi scheme collapsed and the fucking bitch destroyed Peter Sauber's life work. Shall she burn in hell.

Ladies and gentlemen, the reason this forum is now cricket chirps & tumbleweeds ↑

[Tazio]

Ladies and gentlemen, the reason this forum is now cricket chirps & tumbleweeds ↑Peter Sauber would be rolling over in his grave, if he wasn't alive, partying, and rich. :stareup: ;)

[Doc Austin]

Manor has yet to run too, so we are potentially looking at a 16 car grid.

What? Is this for real? Van der Garde camp calls for prison term for Kaltenborn (http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/van-der-garde-camp-calls-for-prison-term-for-kaltenborn)

Really? Has Formula One really come to this?

[Koz]

Manor has yet to run too, so we are potentially looking at a 16 car grid.

What? Is this for real? Van der Garde camp calls for prison term for Kaltenborn (http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/van-der-garde-camp-calls-for-prison-term-for-kaltenborn)

Really? Has Formula One really come to this?

Maybe his daddy-in-law wants to take over Sauber?

[Tazio]

:bounce::rolleyes:

[Tazio]

F1.com bro sucks! :stareup:

[TheFamousEccles]

Ladies and gentlemen, the reason this forum is now cricket chirps & tumbleweeds ↑

Couldn't agree more.

[Duncan]

OMG...

Do Sauber have an in-house attorney? They really don't seem to have any kind of strategy for how to deal with this, besides hoping that they would win in court.

Now that they have lost, and exhausted every available appeal (AFAIK) what are their options besides letting GVdG drive? At some point they're going to have to get to grips with that reality. They signed a contract, and every court they have been in front of has told them that is in force. If they decide to ignore the various courts' conclusions, this is going to get *really* ugly in a hurry.

[Robinho]

Something has clearly happened behind the scenes for Sauber to risk running 2 cars with no Giedo in one. I suspect money has changed hands

[Duncan]

Sauber now back on track, with no indication of what happened (or whether the situation is fully resolved)

Maybe GvdG's father in law is negotiating to buy some share of the team and all of this is just hardball negotiating?

[CNR]

Sauber could be shut down if found guilty to day bailiff at track wait on court case outcome

[Duncan]

Sauber could be shut down if found guilty to day bailiff at track wait on court case outcome

Right. Unless there's some deal behind the scenes we haven't heard about yet. Usually when there's a big legal fight there are also negotiations going on in parallel behind the scenes. We just only find out when they finally agree.

Remains to be seen, but the vdg camp must have something in mind that they want, and it might not be a race seat.

[CNR]

live on one (aust tv) a short time ago

[CNR]

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/giedo-van-der-garde-on-track-as-lawyers-continue-fight-against-sauber/story-fni0fit3-1227261071512
"
THE legal drama between race team saga and dumped driver Giedo Van der Garde looks set to be put on hold until after Sunday’s Grand Prix.

Lawyers for both parties are now seeking instructions from their clients after Supreme Court justice Clyde Croft said he intended to hear the matter next week saying he couldn’t wait around all night until Sauber’s legal team were ready.

Lawyers for Sauber told the court they needed more time to prepare their defence against contempt of court action, because the team manager had been busy with practice sessions today.

If the adjournment is granted, justice Croft could order Sauber CEO Monisha Kaltenborn to stay in Australia after Sunday’s race until the conclusion of proceedings.

Van der Garde also wants all of Sauber’s Australian assets seized
"
Twice this week the court has ordered Sauber to reinstate van der Garde as a driver for this Sunday’s Australian Grand Prix.
But the team has failed to tell the sport’s Contract Recognition Board that its contract with van der Garde is valid. It means he has been unable to secure a Super Licence to race.

[Duncan]

Will Buxton on NBC (US) just said that the court reconves tomorrow, and that meanwhile the lawyers are negotiating.

My guess: this has always been the plan. vdg's lawyers want something, which might be some interest in the team itself. Both sides are just trying to get leverage in their negotiations. Case will settle at the very last minute. Final drivers will be Ericsson and Nasr.

[The Black Knight]

Will Buxton on NBC (US) just said that the court reconves tomorrow, and that meanwhile the lawyers are negotiating.

My guess: this has always been the plan. vdg's lawyers want something, which might be some interest in the team itself. Both sides are just trying to get leverage in their negotiations. Case will settle at the very last minute. Final drivers will be Ericsson and Nasr.

This may very well be the case but I believe that Sauber need to feel quite a significant sting for not upholding their of the contract with VdG. If I were VdG I'd not walk of quietly into the night. If he does he must realize it is the end of his F1 career so he would need reparations for all future earnings lost in my opinion. All the balls are now in his court, literally, with 3 rulings clearly going in his favor. It's also bad publicity for Sauber and if I were on the board, I'd very much be thinking about replacing Monisha. A situation like this for a professional F1 team is unacceptable.

[jens]

I am not sure what the hell is going on there. In any case Ericsson and Nasr were running in FP2 for Sauber. Is Sauber going to face some sanctions now?

But I am not going into it too much now, let the lawyers sort it out (again).

[raybak]

Well they have until 11pm tonight to sort things out or it's back to court at 9.30am Saturday. What's the weekend rate for the Supreme Court? Wouldn't like to be paying that. Also can't remember the last Saturday sitting of the Supreme Court. Not done very often as public servants don't usually work weekends.

[AndyL]

Do Sauber have an in-house attorney? They really don't seem to have any kind of strategy for how to deal with this, besides hoping that they would win in court.

Believe it or not their team principal is a lawyer!

[The Black Knight]

Believe it or not their team principal is a lawyer!

Haha, yeah that's the humiliating part of it. I guarantee you this would not have happened if Peter Sauber was team Principal.

[Ranger]

Sauber have just been hammered the worst way possible. Kaltenborn's Ponzi scheme collapsed and the fucking bitch destroyed Peter Sauber's life work. Shall she burn in hell.

Stay classy.

[Ranger]

Well they have until 11pm tonight to sort things out or it's back to court at 9.30am Saturday. What's the weekend rate for the Supreme Court? Wouldn't like to be paying that. Also can't remember the last Saturday sitting of the Supreme Court. Not done very often as public servants don't usually work weekends.

Apparently that's exactly what is going to happen, based on a few local papers.

[COD]

A farce, what else can be sais. Not doing any favours for either party involved. But also bad for the sport.

I have hard time deciding who to support here. VdG is of course doing a lot of good for future drivers, if he can prove that he had a valid contract that was not honoured because other bring in more money. But all contracts have a clause to make them invalid, with possibly some compensation. Why has he only so late began the legal actions?

I also think that a team should be free to choose who drives for them, for whatever reason. And I don't like the fact that VdG is bullying Sauber just because he doesn't have to care about his future financially

[rjbetty]

VDG doesn't have a superlicence right now, so I think Sauber can get by without having him for a while. Force Majeure or something like that?

A real dilemna indeed.

[Doc Austin]

A farce, what else can be sais. Not doing any favours for either party involved. But also bad for the sport.

No matter how this shakes out, it's still going to be a black eye fro Formula One.

I think we all want whatever is right legally and morally, but we also want two Saubers on the grid for the whole season. We also don't want Kaltenborn sitting in prison. After Bernie's legal farce we don't need another embarrassment like that.


I have hard time deciding who to support here.
Someone is going to get the hose either way.

Even if Sauber and Guido work it out, someone is still going to lose a Formula One drive. After the promising preseason the Sauber drivers had, I can't imagine the disappointment of losing an opportunity like that. They haven't done anything wrong and one of them still might be the hook.

That, and if Sauber can't pay back whomever they cut loose, we could see even more legal action. This is surely an expense Sauber doesn't need as they fight for financial survival.

I think we just have to hope we have two Saubers on the grid for the whole season.

[Mia 01]

He will not drive for Sauber!

[Duncan]

VDG doesn't have a superlicence right now, so I think Sauber can get by without having him for a while. Force Majeure or something like that?

A real dilemna indeed.

According to the Sydney Morning Herald article below, the hold up on Giedo's superlicense is Sauber themselves not signing the paperwork. If that's true, I wish them the best of luck persuading a court that that gets them out of their contract obligations. Of course, we don't know what the contract actually says, but presumably their attorneys have made the best arguments they have available, and nothing they have said has been persuasive so far.

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/motorsport/formula-one-australian-grand-prix-sauber-refuses-to-reinstate-giedo-van-der-garde-20150313-14362c.html

[Doc Austin]

According to the Sydney Morning Herald article below, the hold up on Giedo's superlicense is Sauber themselves not signing the paperwork. If that's true, I wish them the best of luck persuading a court that that gets them out of their contract obligations.

It's that's true, it's certainly not a good faith way of doing business.

[moto99]

That's what happen when you hire somebody based on sex and not their achievements. She's going to ruin Sauber's work of life :(

[Doc Austin]

Kaltenborn is a lawyer, right? What did she think was going to happen when she breached a multi million dollar contract?

[Duncan]

Kaltenborn is a lawyer, right? What did she think was going to happen when she breached a multi million dollar contract?

...and then continue to do whatever they were doing after a judge told them they couldn't do that. Judges are known to provide clarity to your thinking in these situations. If vdG doesn't get to drive this weekend, after the court issued clear instructions on the matter, I wouldn't want to be in Monisha's shoes showing up to court to explain herself.

[moto99]

Kaltenborn is a lawyer, right? What did she think was going to happen when she breached a multi million dollar contract?
After reading your post I got the image in my head of Kaltenborn asking herself a question from your sig.

[raybak]

VDG has stepped down in the interests of F1, and the sport. Wonder what he got offered last night?

[Duncan]

VDG has stepped down in the interests of F1, and the sport. Wonder what he got offered last night?

Where did you see this?

[Doc Austin]

The latest from Motorsports.com: http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/van-der-garde-and-sauber-reach-agreement-action-for-contempt-of-court-withdrawn

I find it hard to believe VDG would spend $8 and walk away empty. I gotta believe they paid him to go away.

[Doc Austin]

However, it seems that the possibility of the Dutchman racing for the team at some stage is still very much on the table. (http://http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/van-der-garde-and-sauber-reach-agreement-action-for-contempt-of-court-withdrawn)

Provided the wheels stay on it long enough to get it out of the pits, that is.

[N. Jones]

Planet-f1.com doesn't say this:
http://planetf1.com/driver/3213/36734/Sauber-saga-drags-on-and-on

NEither does the BBC:
http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/formula1/31846217

and neither does autosport.com:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/118032

[Doc Austin]

I believe the MS.com is the latest of the articles in question. The Autosport link is definitely from earlier today.

[Duncan]

I'm assuming that this has only just happened and most websites haven't caught up yet.

[Duncan]

Reading vdG's statement I don't think he's agreed to terminate the contract. I think he's just agreed to give up his right to race this weekend so as to avoid destroying the team. He still pretty much owns Sauber.

[CNR]

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/motorsport/live-f1/f1-driver-giedo-van-der-garde-pulls-out-of-melbourne-grand-prix-despite-court-win-20150314-143yr6.html

""There are very few cases started, appealed and contempt proceedings resolved within eight days.""

[truefan72]

the latest is that some settlement has been reached
Some are saying a hefty golden parachute
while others are reporting (albeit the rumor mill) that Sauber don't have the $8 million +damages to pay and have offered some monetary compensation along with a percentage of the team.
(If fairness were at play it should come from MK's portion)
A full Press conference has been scheduled by Sauber a week from now to clarify.

That is why GVdG had backed off.

[zako85]

Finally, a team is forced to realize that it can't just renege on its contracts.

[Duncan]

Finally, a team is forced to realize that it can't just renege on its contracts.

Will Buxton on NBC was suggesting that Giedo is actually quite a popular man in the paddock right now for this reason.

[Tazio]

Will Buxton on NBC was suggesting that Giedo is actually quite a popular man in the paddock right now for this reason.
I fear he may be the Curt Flood of F1 however. Of course his situation was different, but it pretty much ended a great career! :(
http://m.mlb.com/news/article/1844945/


Flood v. Kuhn (407 U.S. 258 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Case_citation)) was a 1972 United States Supreme Court (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Supreme_Court) decision upholding, by a 5–3 margin, the antitrust (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antitrust) exemption first granted to Major League Baseball (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_League_Baseball) (MLB) in Federal Baseball Club v. National League (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Baseball_Club_v._National_League). It arose from a challenge by St. Louis Cardinals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Louis_Cardinals)' outfielder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outfield) Curt Flood (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curt_Flood) when he refused to be traded (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_(sports)) to the Philadelphia Phillies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philadelphia_Phillies) after the 1969 season (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1969_Major_League_Baseball_season). He sought injunctive relief from the reserve clause (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserve_clause), which prevented him from negotiating with another team for a year after his contract expired. Named as initial respondents were baseball commissioner (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commissioner_of_baseball) Bowie Kuhn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowie_Kuhn), MLB and all of its then-24 member clubs.
Although the Court ruled in baseball's favor 5-3, it admitted the original grounds for the antitrust exemption were tenuous at best, that baseball was indeed interstate commerce (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_commerce) for purposes of the act and the exemption was an "anomaly"

[Duncan]

I fear he may be the Curt Flood of F1 however. Of course his situation was different, but it pretty much ended a great career! :(
http://m.mlb.com/news/article/1844945/

I think this situation is a bit different; in that case, Curt Flood was challenging already established (if arguably unjust) law and the well understood rules. In this situation, Giedo is merely asking Sauber to uphold commitments made in a contract that they freely entered into (and in respect of which they already took his money...).

[Tazio]

But it still had to be challenged. I mean Catfish Hunter was the first recipient when gardening leave was rightfully excluded as if one team refuses vto pay his salary, another does!

[journeyman racer]

I'd been surprised at the amount of local press this situation has gotten. Even led some headlines.

[Duncan]

I think it may not be insignificant as far as Giedo's future prospects go that he actually won his case. That is to say, when the arguments were examined by more than one independent group of arbiters, they concluded that he was right.

Starting a big legal fight and then being judged to have been wrong all along would have been more damaging...

[Jag_Warrior]

Why is Peter Sauber keeping this rolling nightmare, Monisha Kaltenborn, as team principal? Political correctness or is she writing a check to the team, kind of like a pay driver: Pay Team Principal? The biggest joke is that she had been mentioned as Bernie's replacement. The only worse choice for that that I can think of would be Tony George. I would say Bernie Madoff, but I guess he'll continue to be "on vacation" until he's worm's food.

[Doc Austin]

Why is Peter Sauber keeping this rolling nightmare, Monisha Kaltenborn, as team principal?

A better question might be "how can he fire her when the team is third in the constructor's championship?"

However, I agree that as a lawyer, she had to see this coming. I can't imagine how she got herself into that position unless she was just so desperate for funding that she was willing to risk it.

Maybe the problem is less with the entrants and more with the system that makes the rich even richer and the poor even poorer. You will do a lot of crooked things when your survival is on the line.


The biggest joke is that she had been mentioned as Bernie's replacement.

Like Bernie never got into $100 million of legal trouble?


The only worse choice for that that I can think of would be Tony George.

Or anyone who ran champcar onto the reef.

[anfield5]

At least Kaltenborn hasn't done what a nameless team boss who departed and came back used to do ie. blame everyone else in the team, state that he knew nothing about it and can't be expected to know every little thing that goes on at McLaren *(oops I mean in his team) and shrug it off as someone elses problem. It is her mess and at least she has stood up with it and answered 'Geidogate". I am not for an instant defending her actions in hiring 3 (or 4?) pay drivers for two seats, but as Doc said you take risks when your survival is at stake and maybe Geido's cash is the reason Sauber could develop a decent car and are now competitive, so maybe it was a risk worth taking? And if Sauber goes on to have a good season due to the extra money they had pre-season, maybe she will come out of this looking better than she does now.

[Jag_Warrior]

A better question might be "how can he fire her when the team is third in the constructor's championship?"

Depending on her financial stake in the team, it should be rather easy: "You're fired." Sauber is using Ferrari engines. If he needs suggestions or ideas, Peter could call the HR dept. at Maranello and I'm sure they could explain to him how to do it. ;) A lucky (and temporary) 3rd place in the WCC means little when your team was this close to having its assets seized because of the actions of this slickster.


However, I agree that as a lawyer, she had to see this coming. I can't imagine how she got herself into that position unless she was just so desperate for funding that she was willing to risk it.

From the description of the circumstances I heard, it sounds like she's running something akin to a racing Ponzi scheme over there.


Maybe the problem is less with the entrants and more with the system that makes the rich even richer and the poor even poorer. You will do a lot of crooked things when your survival is on the line.

True enough, the distribution of income in F1 is skewed. But many of us have faced hard times. And yet, we didn't use that as an excuse to go crooked. I accept that they need pay drivers. But you don't sell the same seat multiple times and then keep people's money. She's lucky she didn't wind up in steel bracelets for contempt.



Like Bernie never got into $100 million of legal trouble?

Given his positive contributions to the sport over the decades, I'm willing to give the dwarf a pass every now & again. Kind of like if Satan helped an old lady across the street once or twice a year. Apart from her gender, I can think of no reason why Kaltenborn's name was ever mentioned for such a position.




Or anyone who ran champcar onto the reef.

Jargon Joe Heitzler, Tony George or Monisha Kaltenborn... who would I LEAST want to run my racing team (or series)? Tough choice. Really tough choice!

I liked Tom Walkinshaw. But he was also a crook. So even though I liked what he did in racing (especially with Jaguars), I never denied that he was as crooked as a dog's hind leg. Kaltenborn appears to be a crook, and she hasn't accomplished anything of note in racing to balance it out, IMO. The sooner she's gone, the better.

[CNR]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/118116
""There has been a lot of speculation in the media over the past week, so I want to set out clearly that my sponsors paid the sponsorship fee related to the 2015 season in its entirety to Sauber in the first half of 2014.

"This was simply in good faith and to help the team deal with its cash problems at the time. Effectively, it was my sponsor's advanced payments that helped the team survive in 2014.
"

[Doc Austin]

From the description of the circumstances I heard, it sounds like she's running something akin to a racing Ponzi scheme over there.

It's very disappointing. As this unfolded I really didn't want to believe Sauber was wrong, but it appears they simply sold VDG's seat right out from under him.

If I have the numbers correct, VDG paid something like $8 million for the ride, and the settlement was something like $15 million. VDG is walking off with another $7 than he started with, so he could easily turn that into a season of Indycar. Then again, with that kind of money in hand it would be hard not to run down to Cosumel for a couple of years of hookers, Tequilla and blow.

While we are talking numbers, why would Sauber pay $15 million to settle an $8 million dispute? My guess is that they hosed the other two drivers down for more money, and that squeezed VDG out because he was cheapest to get rid of. Still, what kind of sense does it make to keep the money for a year and only have to pay it back nearly double? Maybe this kind of math is what got Sauber in such money trouble to begin with.

With this finally settled hopefully Sauber can have a decent year. If you set everything else aside, it is hard not to cheer for Nasr after the blistering race he had this weekend, and even Ericson looked reasonably decent. They could easily have a banner year and pull themselves back into decent shape.

Finally, formula One used to have a contracts recognition board that ruled on these sort of things. As far as I can tell, they still do, but through this whole thing there was never any mention of it. I wonder if this was such a stickey mess that the FIA just opted to stay out of it. Formula One needs to be above this sort of thing.

[TheFamousEccles]

Word!

[Jag_Warrior]

Don't get me wrong... I was very happy to see Nasr do so much better than I expected. He proved himself to be much sounder than I'd given him credit for.

And Doc, the numbers you saw are in the same range as the ones I've seen. I have no idea if the amount going to Giedo includes his legal fees, but she'll get stuck with those too, I'm sure... in addition to the fees for her own lawyers. If this was a financial move on her part, looks like she wound up paying about 100% interest for the use of his money. So while she had use of some needed money last year, she now has to pay it back times two this year. I doubt any Fortune 500 companies are going to put her on their short list for a CFO position.

I like Peter Sauber. I've liked him since his Sauber-Mercedes days at Le Mans. I just wish he'd take his team back from this charlatan before she totally ruins his reputation and the goodwill he's built up over the years.

[Bruce D]

Then again, with that kind of money in hand it would be hard not to run down to Cosumel for a couple of years of hookers, Tequilla and blow.

It's funny you say that when in this whole saga I've been thinking it's like Sauber have prostituted their seats to the highest bidder.


Finally, formula One used to have a contracts recognition board that ruled on these sort of things. As far as I can tell, they still do, but through this whole thing there was never any mention of it.

Adam Cooper mentions it in his article here http://adamcooperf1.com/2015/03/12/no-licence-for-van-der-garde-as-sauber-faces-seizure-of-cars/

[airshifter]

Stranger things have happened. Though it doesn't make sense to most of us and obviously has to do with money, if the team wants to survive they have to do what they have to do. It could well be that buying out the contract VDG had was the only thing keeping them financially viable,

Life obviously got a lot tougher for the team after losing BMW money and really in the past one of the things the team had benefited from was solid drivers. With costs going crazy due to changes in regs being almost constant in recent years, I think they have done well to hold their own. If you look back in the Ferrari years before they went to BMW, the team wasn't performing much better than they are now in an era of some big teams (Lotus, Mercedes, McLaren, etc) struggling so much with development rules that some cars barely run at season start.

I hope the Nasr form continues, and can lift them to a solid season. The single year that Kimi drove for the team (along with quick Nick) was the best finnish the team had with Ferrari power. When you look at the BMW powered years, sure they did better, but among the drivers they could afford to pay for are now two WDCs, Heidfeld, and Kubica. Big money and talent brought them results.


Although I don't like all the drama over the VDG seat, it appears to have been settled out of the courts. I really don't quite understand why people view Kaltenborn as such an evil. This is Formula 1 and we've had teams give car plans to other teams, dictated spins for race fixing, blatant team orders when they were banned. espionage on a huge level, and protests on just about any change known to man. After all that has happened in recent years, I just fail to see Monisha as the pure evil in F1.

[The Black Knight]

Stranger things have happened. Though it doesn't make sense to most of us and obviously has to do with money, if the team wants to survive they have to do what they have to do. It could well be that buying out the contract VDG had was the only thing keeping them financially viable,

Life obviously got a lot tougher for the team after losing BMW money and really in the past one of the things the team had benefited from was solid drivers. With costs going crazy due to changes in regs being almost constant in recent years, I think they have done well to hold their own. If you look back in the Ferrari years before they went to BMW, the team wasn't performing much better than they are now in an era of some big teams (Lotus, Mercedes, McLaren, etc) struggling so much with development rules that some cars barely run at season start.

I hope the Nasr form continues, and can lift them to a solid season. The single year that Kimi drove for the team (along with quick Nick) was the best finnish the team had with Ferrari power. When you look at the BMW powered years, sure they did better, but among the drivers they could afford to pay for are now two WDCs, Heidfeld, and Kubica. Big money and talent brought them results.


Although I don't like all the drama over the VDG seat, it appears to have been settled out of the courts. I really don't quite understand why people view Kaltenborn as such an evil. This is Formula 1 and we've had teams give car plans to other teams, dictated spins for race fixing, blatant team orders when they were banned. espionage on a huge level, and protests on just about any change known to man. After all that has happened in recent years, I just fail to see Monisha as the pure evil in F1.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that I reckon it is because most people here are with me when I say there isn't enough protection for employees of a company and most at one time or the other have probably wanted to take their employer to court. Here I guess they see an employee who did everything by the book and got fucked over by an employer. This is certainly the way I look at it and I would have had no problem with Sauber being made a sample of really. As for Monisha, they essentially committed to a contract took money and didn't hold up their end of the bargagain, so, to me, that is tantamount to fraud and I think she deserved to go to jail and VdG deserved to get his seat.But they ahve gotten away with it by the skin of their teeth from the looks of it.

[Mia 01]

I´m glad that Marcus still got his drive, that my only take on this dreadful story. And, I Think he will score some Moore Points for Sauber!

[airshifter]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that I reckon it is because most people here are with me when I say there isn't enough protection for employees of a company and most at one time or the other have probably wanted to take their employer to court. Here I guess they see an employee who did everything by the book and got fucked over by an employer. This is certainly the way I look at it and I would have had no problem with Sauber being made a sample of really. As for Monisha, they essentially committed to a contract took money and didn't hold up their end of the bargagain, so, to me, that is tantamount to fraud and I think she deserved to go to jail and VdG deserved to get his seat.But they ahve gotten away with it by the skin of their teeth from the looks of it.

Though I speak from experience only in the US, in most of the modern world if a person gets screwed by an employer it's only because they allowed it. Employee rights are plentiful in the modern western world, and if people don't roll over, it's fairly hard for a company to really shaft someone.

In this case, most likely VDG would have been a contractor legally which is another whole set of rules. I hold contracts on a number of people that work for the company I'm employed by, and they can be terminated at will legally. We make it policy to treat them more like regular employees, but in the state I live a regular employee can be terminated at any time without cause. That may give the former employee rights to collect unemployment, etc but it's still legal.

If people want a 100% guarantee of steady income and no chance of losing a job, they should work for themselves and find out why at times people have to be let go. If business was that easy nobody would want to work for someone else and share the profits of their work. If a person went to jail every time they didn't perform for their income, the world would need many more jail cells. Both employees and contractors screw people on a regular basis, so there has to be protection for both sides of the relationship.


And being that the entire settlement took place out of the courts, I'd hardly say anyone got off by the skin of their teeth, was facing jail time, etc. Without knowing the details of the contract, nobody can really pass judgement other than the courts who deal with such contract, and I haven't seen any assets being seized, or arrests being made.

[Bagwan]

As I understand it , both sides of this could have handled it better .

Giedo's side knew Sauber had named two other guys , and knew why , but chose to dig in , rather than look elsewhere , with , potentially , a buyout of the contract in his pocket .
And , one might imagine that they were likely informed that , to keep the seat , they could come up with an amount greater than either Nasr or Ericsson could provide .

It would , for sure , feel like a simple shake-down move to Van der Garde , and it's little wonder the episode ended in a payout , but , sadly , it won't make him look any more employable in the paddock .

Negotiations should have taken place a long time ago , or , at least in the background , like the Sutil case .

Giedo is talking a little much about it , I fear , as Sauber has mentioned that they have answers to many questions , but will keep them confidential , as was agreed .
That is likely a direct reference to Giedo speaking publicly earlier , which was apparently one reason they believed his contract may already have been voided by Giedo , himself .


It's never simple , and it's always expensive .

[Doc Austin]

I'de be a little less likely to hire VDG knowing he has such a crack legal team. I would also be a little less likely to buy a drive from Sauber knowing they might show me the door and make me sue them to get my money back. Of course, as long as you conduct a good faith kind of business, you minimize the chances of this kind of thing happening.

VDG is probably right that his F1 career is probably over. There are enough buy drivers out there that teams don't have to risk taking on one that already as this kind of record of litigation. VDG is not helping himself by running his mouth all over social media and trashing Sauber............

Sauber baffled by van der Garde's accusations (http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/sauber-baffled-by-van-der-garde-s-accusations)

Come on Giedo. You almost doubled your money and here is your chance to walk away in a dignified manner. By trashing Sauber now, you are not making yourself look like a good hire. Winning nearly double your money in the courts proved you were right, and it would look a lot better if you let that talk for you instead of trying to start media mudfight.

[Nem14]

Do people really think Sauber, after demonstrating they are dis-honest and have no business ethics, will actually pay up the Million$ the court says Sauber now owe to Giedo?

Having a court say it has to be paid, doesn't automatically mean it will be paid.

[The Black Knight]

Though I speak from experience only in the US, in most of the modern world if a person gets screwed by an employer it's only because they allowed it. Employee rights are plentiful in the modern western world, and if people don't roll over, it's fairly hard for a company to really shaft someone.

In this case, most likely VDG would have been a contractor legally which is another whole set of rules. I hold contracts on a number of people that work for the company I'm employed by, and they can be terminated at will legally. We make it policy to treat them more like regular employees, but in the state I live a regular employee can be terminated at any time without cause. That may give the former employee rights to collect unemployment, etc but it's still legal.

If people want a 100% guarantee of steady income and no chance of losing a job, they should work for themselves and find out why at times people have to be let go. If business was that easy nobody would want to work for someone else and share the profits of their work. If a person went to jail every time they didn't perform for their income, the world would need many more jail cells. Both employees and contractors screw people on a regular basis, so there has to be protection for both sides of the relationship.


And being that the entire settlement took place out of the courts, I'd hardly say anyone got off by the skin of their teeth, was facing jail time, etc. Without knowing the details of the contract, nobody can really pass judgement other than the courts who deal with such contract, and I haven't seen any assets being seized, or arrests being made.

It depends on the pair of balls possessed by the employee. It's all well and good saying "if they allow it" but if an employee's contract is terminated and they take their former employer to court, then future employers may be less inclined to hire them if they see that this guy is willing to sue them should things to amiss somehow. So really it's an employers world. It's like VdG. Who in F1 is going to employ him now? It may be that someone will but I find it highly unlikely. The same goes for a regular employee.

So while, yes, if you are being screwed you have plenty of protection, it doesn't protect you against future employer's judgement on whether they want to employ you. This is why employers have the high ground because very few employees will challenge them as to do so could potentially jeopardize future opportunities.

[Doc Austin]

Do people really think Sauber, after demonstrating they are dis-honest and have no business ethics, will actually pay up the Million$ the court says Sauber now owe to Giedo?

It would be a good way to stay out of jail and keep their equipment from being seized.



Having a court say it has to be paid, doesn't automatically mean it will be paid.

The courts can't bleed a turnip, but they can lay down serious alternatives. In Australia those alternatives were serious enough to get Sauber to negotiate with VDG and find a solution. Now, negotiating time is over and it's pay up time. If that fails it will be consequence time.

[Nem14]

It would be a good way to stay out of jail and keep their equipment from being seized.
How far does the reach of the Australian court extend?

[Doc Austin]

How far does the reach of the Australian court extend?

Australia, is my guess. ..... the same Australia they go to next year for the Australian Grand Prix.

[CNR]

Australia, is my guess. ..... the same Australia they go to next year for the Australian Grand Prix.

equipment may be safe until next year
but Monisha Kaltenborn that is another story
Extradition law in Australia is the formal process by which a fugitive found outside a jurisdiction is surrendered to the jurisdiction where an alleged offence has taken place for trial or punishment, under Australian law. This may include a process done within the country or one between Australia and another country.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extradition_law_in_Australia

[jens]

Do people really think Sauber, after demonstrating they are dis-honest and have no business ethics, will actually pay up the Million$ the court says Sauber now owe to Giedo?

Having a court say it has to be paid, doesn't automatically mean it will be paid.

Well... If they don't pay, depends how far are you prepared to go in seeking justice. For example Sauber's assets can be confiscated if they disobey the law.

[Doc Austin]

Fortunately, they settled it, so seizing cars or arresting people isn't going to happen unless Sauber doesn't pay up. They would be crazy to drag this out any longer. The negative press and reactions have already been way too bad. Sauber really need to put this away.

[BDunnell]

Fortunately, they settled it, so seizing cars or arresting people isn't going to happen unless Sauber doesn't pay up. They would be crazy to drag this out any longer. The negative press and reactions have already been way too bad.

I doubt that really matters much. Few outside the ranks of F1 enthusiasts will have the slightest idea of what's gone on. van der Garde has been treated extremely shabbily, but will it damage the team? I doubt it.

[airshifter]

I doubt that really matters much. Few outside the ranks of F1 enthusiasts will have the slightest idea of what's gone on. van der Garde has been treated extremely shabbily, but will it damage the team? I doubt it.

I think some people are too wrapped up in the drama created over the entire thing. They want raids, seizing of equipment, and to burn Monisha at the stake!

[Jag_Warrior]

I think some people are too wrapped up in the drama created over the entire thing. They want raids, seizing of equipment, and to burn Monisha at the stake!

Being more of a classical traditionalist, I was more in favor of throwing her from the Tarpeian Rock. But if there's a stake and a can of gasoline nearby, I'm OK with that too. I'm not that picky.

[CNR]

https://au.news.yahoo.com/vic/a/26790904/f1-drivers-melb-gp-court-bid-almost-done/
"Lawyers for the Dutch driver and his former team Sauber asked the Supreme Court of Victoria to suspend an order it made allowing Mr van der Garde to race with the team for the rest of the F1 season."