Young talented drivers

[MJW]

With the announcement of Camilli joining Toyota's junior programme and Lefebrve's links with Red Bull and Loeb plus Chardonnets connections with Citroen and Daniel Elena there must be forum members who have followed their careers to date. Simple question, who is best?

[PLuto]

From the names you have mentioned, I am sure that the best is still Loeb :rolleyes:

[N.O.T]

Are you trying to give the manager nation a heart attack ? Throw a finish person in there for good measure...

Show some compassion damn you !!!!

None of the mentioned has been tested properly to draw conclusions.

[MJW]

Are you trying to give the manager nation a heart attack ? Throw a finish person in there for good measure...

Show some compassion damn you !!!!

None of the mentioned has been tested properly to draw conclusions.
No I meant when in their domestic championships and rallies to date, who has the spark or potential or fastest of those three?

[tommeke_B]

Simple question, who is best?
Easy, it's Camilli... Now serious, I've seen all 3 drivers several times, on both national and international level.

Sébastien Chardonnet is the driver with lowest potential in my opinion. I've seen him in the French DS3 Trophy in 2012. He wasn't the fastest back then, clearly beaten by drivers like Arzeno and Gilbert. Also his outings with a WRC car and his WRC2 program last year were hardly impressive... He can be fast on tarmac, but I don't believe he will ever be a driver who can fight for top positions on every surface.

Stéphane Lefebvre is a guy from Northern France (like François Delecour). In the Peugeot Volant (207 and 208) he proved worthy against more experienced drivers like Jeremy Ancian and Kevin Abbring. Last year he had a crazy programme with JERC and JWRC, which he won both (although we can question the competition level). Now it looks like he needs some time to adapt to his new codriver and his new R5-car. He has very little 4WD experience, so we'll have to wait and see... This year he gets a great opportunity again, he will probably do all WRC events this year. Also keep an eye on him in his home-event in Ypres this year, he will participate with a 208 R5.

Eric Camilli, in my opinion the most talented driver. He only "really" started driving in 2013 in the French DS3 R1-trophy, and proved to be the best there. Last year he did the Peugeot 208 volant. He was often in a battle with Charles Martin (who was already doing his 2nd year in the 208 trophy and had some official support), he didn't have much problems to match his pace. Also interesting there (I did 3 events of the French gravel championship last year) was how different Camilli and Martin were in terms of driving. Charles Martin was all over the place everywhere, extremely spectacular to see. But Camilli managed to get the same stage-times with a very clean style of driving, very "loeb-ish". Then Camilli set faster stage-times than Lefebvre in Rallye Deutschland, and also his pace in Corsica (with an "old" 207 S2000) proves what he is worth. :) Also in last Monte-Carlo Camilli could set faster stage-times than Lefebvre, even while Lefebvre was in a great battle with Martin Koci for the WRC2 victory...

But France has many more talented drivers, too many to name really. Just giving some example of how harsh the competition there is. We were at Rallye Terre de Causses last year, first event of the French gravel championship and also first event of the 208 cup. The first stage was very short, only 6,5km. But the difference between 1st and 7th overall was less than 1,5s! On some stage of over 20km the difference between first 7 was something like 4,5s... There you can't say "I'm driving to gain experience". The only way to be seen by manufacturers or FFSA is by being at least as fast as the quickest guys.

[Ounin]

Lefevbre is fastest right now. Chardonnet most experienced but rate him a bit lower, he has to prove himself this year, did not convince me in Monte with (old) WRC car. Camilli is very quick but hasn't gone though carreer stages as the other two in other words don't know he delivers under pressure of people watching him who are investing money in him.

[MJW]

Thanks - I thought I had read somewhere about Camilli beating Lefebrve, and it's true what you say about competition in France.

[Rallyper]

Throw in 10 nordic drivers and they will all be outpacing all of these three guys. Why don´t we talk about more coming guys than three musketeers...?

[Mirek]

Maybe because all last 11 world championship titles were won by French guys?

[N.O.T]

Throw in 10 nordic drivers and they will all be outpacing all of these three guys. Why don´t we talk about more coming guys than three musketeers...?

we are taking about coming guys... and nordic drivers are a joke when it comes to that.

In the old days where teams based their selection on manager influence and money there were many... but then serious teams realised that having rally skills is better than a good manager.

[tommeke_B]

Throw in 10 nordic drivers and they will all be outpacing all of these three guys. Why don´t we talk about more coming guys than three musketeers...?
Some tried... ;) There was Jaro Kinnunen who had a good pace, he finished 6th and 4th in 208 cup in 2 gravel events he did in France. There was Taisko Lario who did the whole trophy if I'm not mistaken, his best result was 8th overall. There was SWEDISH Mattias Adielsson, he did a gravel event (Causses - finished 10th in 208 cup) and a tarmac event (retired after crash). Chris Ingram also did some events in the 208 cup, his best result was 5th in the cup (6th in R2) in Limousin (tarmac).

And also on international level, I'm asking myself... Is Jari-Matti Latvala the last flying Finn who will win WRC events? When looking at the future, except for Lappi or a possible miracle for Hänninen it doesn't look so bright...

[EightGear]

Throw in 10 nordic drivers and they will all be outpacing all of these three guys. Why don´t we talk about more coming guys than three musketeers...?
Like who?

[AL14]

It seems this young guy Teemu Suninen from Finland could be very strong. I know nothing about him, just heard about.
Veiby is another interesting nordic driver, very good pace in MC last week.
But this is off topic I guess.

[AndyRAC]

Throw in 10 nordic drivers and they will all be outpacing all of these three guys. Why don´t we talk about more coming guys than three musketeers...?

There was a theory that Nordic drivers were the best - I'm not sure it was totally true. However, they were the ones who got all the opportunities; hence their success. There was the well known saying; "If you want to win, get a Finn".

Now we could see an army of French drivers in the WRC.

[Tom206wrc]

To me Eric Camilli is also the best of all, and I'm a bit gutted he left PSA for Toyota I must admit :mark:

[PLuto]

Stéphane Lefebvre has one big advantage over his "rivals" in this fight - he is youngest...

[tommeke_B]

Stéphane Lefebvre has one big advantage over his "rivals" in this fight - he is youngest...

Yes, but both Loeb and Ogier weren't youngest either... For me the whole "age-thing" is overrated. In rallying your career isn't over yet at 32 or something...

[gorganl2000]

From the names you have mentioned, I am sure that the best is still Loeb :rolleyes:

that was quite funny
lol

[tommeke_B]

http://www.lequipe.fr/Rallye/Actualites/Camilli-je-ne-m-enflamme-pas/532438 - Interview with Camilli. I translated the most important, nothing extraordinary in it. ;)

About his contract with Toyota: "Perhaps Abbring signing Hyundai made it easier for me. I admit being a bit surprised of what happens to me lately. I have only 2 years of rally-experience, 25 events. It happens very quickly to me, but I have to prove myself first, and learn and improve.

His program for this year: "Thanks to Toyota, I will compete in WRC2 with a Fiesta R5. Next to that we will do test sessions with the Toyota Yaris WRC, on gravel and tarmac, together with Sarrazin and Lindholm. I hope to learn a lot from them, as they are very experienced. Toyota focused on me for the future and wants to build something solid. It's up to me to work a lot and not disappoint them."

About FFSA/Rallye Jeunes: "I owe a big thank you to the FFSA for giving the chance with Rallye Jeunes, which helped many of us. At the moment a lot of people are talking about young drivers like Lefebvre, Gilbert, Rossel and me. It's great for all of us. Everything has been done really great from the base up, with great training and very professional coaching. But there's still a long road ahead of me. This year will be mostly a learning year, especially on gravel. The 4WD car is very different from the 208 R2."

[dimviii]

How old is Camilli,Lefebvre,Gilbert,Chardo?

[tommeke_B]

How old is Camilli,Lefebvre,Gilbert,Chardo?
Camilli 27
Lefebvre 22
Gilbert 25
Chardonnet 26

Still Camilli is the least experienced. I think Gilbert has most experience.

[Tom206wrc]

Don't forget Yoann Rossel amongst the talented french youngsters ;)

[tommeke_B]

Don't forget Yoann Rossel amongst the talented french youngsters ;)

Too early for me to judge him. He has very little experience, just a season with DS3 R1 and a few rallies with DS3 R3. Maybe we can talk about him after this year... ;)

[vino_93]

Camilli 27
Lefebvre 22
Gilbert 25
Chardonnet 26

Still Camilli is the least experienced. I think Gilbert has most experience.

Gilbert : 95 starts (since 2008; starting a long time in french cup, instead of national trophies as other quickly did. He drove a Clio Maxi Kit Car :) )
Lefebvre : 69 starts (since 2010)
Chardonnet : 52 starts (since 2009)
Camilli : 24 starts (a few in 2008/2009, then start really in 2013)

[AL14]

Camilli : 24 starts (a few in 2008/2009, then start really in 2013)

What did he do from 2009 to 2013?

[Lundefaret]

One "problem" facing the development of the Nordic drivers is their felt need to always be in one or two classes above their fighting weight.
More drivers should stay longer in the lower classes (R1 is very good) to rally learn how to drive effectivly in a car that dont scare You.

Modern WRC driving is so fine tuned - at least when there is a Loeb or an Ogier in the Championship - that Finnish Maximum Attack is not enough any more. You have to be equally carefull with the management of grip, power, forces etc in a WRC car, as You need to be in a R1.

On top of that is the understanding of pace notes, where I am starting to believe that especially the Finnish are being left behind.

Age is also an important factor. You actually have to be old enough when You drive th R1 (or similar), so You really get the importance. Rally is very much about mental maturity. Young boys will often have too high a risk tolerance to succeed at the highest level in the sport.

The French "system" is very good with talent competitions lending a hand also to those born whit out a silver spoon in their mouths, discovering some true talents. These boys are often more motivated than their more spoiled competitors, and motivation to put in all the long hours is also very important. Both Ogier and Loeb have been their generations best at this.

Camilli seems to me to be a very interesting driver. Fortunatly for him he has not had the money to ruin his own talent. He was forced to wait until he got more mature before he began his career, and I think that this is a very good thing, and he will be exciting to follow in that respect.

[Rallyper]

Hehe-

But France has a good programme for "young" drivers, for sure. But expecting every coming champion will be french is a bit too much I think.

And why need drivers from the north all start their careers on French soil to be judged?

The problem is national associations doesn´t have programs for young drivers except for a few...

[Maui J.]

Next Nordic stars?
Kalle Rovenpera & Oliver Solberg, but there could be a few years to wait!!

[tommeke_B]

One thing bothers me @Rallyper... You complain that nobody is talking about Nordic drivers, and it's all about the French. Why don't you tell us about the young talents from Nordic countries? Who made a big impression on you in the last 2 years, in national championships in Sweden and Norway? There must be some... We can't see and know everything, why don't you show us.. ;)

[skarderud]

Steve røkland, marius aasen and sindre furuseth in R2's in norway. Steve can be seen in erc this year too.
And petter kristiansen, did some erc in an fabia R2 last year.

[Slipzen]

I would say Pontus Tidemand from Sweden have good potential to perform well.

[vino_93]

What did he do from 2009 to 2013?

nothing related to motorsport ;)

What is missing the most in nordic countries is one-make cup. It helps you a lot to progress, facing a really good opposition because everyone wants to be here. And you're highlight if you win, manufacturers clearly see who you are, sponsors too ...

Quite strange for me was the carrier of Rantanen. He did really good times on his national WRC event (7th in 2008 in his second year of 4WD rally, 5th in 2009 whereas a drove a Clio Ragnotti in UK, and then he struggle to find programs ...). There was a lack of support for this guy, whereas we could have seen him doing a year of SWRC, JWRC, IRC ... if it was a bit better organized in Finland. How a guy doing such great times couldn't find money to run other international events ? Why noone support in Finland, even national federation ? Did he have a manager, or someone to put him in touch with official teams ?
Finland is missing something to help their young guys. Today we can see good guys, like Suninen, Vuorisalo or Haapamäki ... but what will they do this year ? Will they have some international highlights ? If finnish hopes can't go out of Finland, for sure they'll never find international highlights.

[tommeke_B]

Keep in mind that a one-make cup only works in countries with enough competitors. In France there's a lot of interest, but in most countries the system doesn't really work. Last year the Belgian one-make cups weren't worth watching either... ;)

BTW, this topic should be re-named to something like "young talents", there's much more to talk about than the 3 drivers mentioned in the title...

[Ounin]

Keep in mind that a one-make cup only works in countries with enough competitors. In France there's a lot of interest, but in most countries the system doesn't really work. Last year the Belgian one-make cups weren't worth watching either... ;)

BTW, this topic should be re-named to something like "young talents", there's much more to talk about than the 3 drivers mentioned in the title...

Yes you are right we should rename this topic it's running out of hand.
Every country has its talents for sure, but that's all within their own specialism like being snow-, gravel or tarmac specialists. In order to be interesting for the manufactures you have to be allround. And to stay an bit on this topic; France is the place to be. FFSA provides young talents to drive in Tarmac as wel as Gravel championships. it also provides young guys with small budgets to enter in one make R2 champiosnhips with interesting prices were next year - gaining more experience/climbing up the ladder, is guaranteed.

[Rallyper]

One thing bothers me @Rallyper... You complain that nobody is talking about Nordic drivers, and it's all about the French. Why don't you tell us about the young talents from Nordic countries? Who made a big impression on you in the last 2 years, in national championships in Sweden and Norway? There must be some... We can't see and know everything, why don't you show us.. ;)

Maybe I did. Not on WRC topics. Look at European National championships topics instead. It´ll be more in the future.
(However - should I tell you that Pontus Tidemand won swedish sprint championship today by 11 secs over 6 K, would it impress you? And Emil Bergkvist won 2WD in an old Astra Kit car in same championship - would you and your buddies bather?

[Mirek]

Pontus has been around on the international scene for quite a time. It sure said a lot more about him than 6 km long event in Sweden (no offense there) ;)

[Rallyper]

Pontus has been around on the international scene for quite a time. It sure said a lot more about him than 6 km long event in Sweden (no offense there) ;)

He´s been around but never had the ultimate chance like driving when others pay... Today he impressed a lot, whether you believe it or not. Swedish champion Jerker Axelsson in S12 beaten by over 12 secs in very tricky conditions over as said about 6 K.

[EightGear]

It's kind of worrying for him though that he wasn't picked by Toyota. Of the 5 young drivers who tested for them he's the only one who hasn't been linked to a program with them.


Still I'm curious to see him in WRC2 for a full season.

[Rallyper]

It's kind of worrying for him though that he wasn't picked by Toyota. Of the 5 young drivers who tested for them he's the only one who hasn't been linked to a program with them.


Still I'm curious to see him in WRC2 for a full season.

Agreed. For me he has done much more than Camilli, but still - he is nordic. And at the moment you have to be french, right?

[tommeke_B]

Agreed. For me he has done much more than Camilli, but still - he is nordic. And at the moment you have to be french, right?

Abbring, Paddon and Tanak aren't French either... ;) Tidemand didn't do much events last year. He was very impressive in Germany... Pitty he chose to do RallyX, which is more a sport for retired people... I'm also not sure about the advantage or disadvantage of being at EvenRally... With Mikkelsen and especially Lappi, it was clear that one manager could not always work for all 3 drivers, especially on projects with manufacturers where there's only one seat available. Now we'll have to see how things evolve with the managers son (Veiby) starting his career as well...

[Ounin]

Agreed. For me he has done much more than Camilli, but still - he is nordic. And at the moment you have to be french, right?

I catch your drift although it's about 3 French drivers, but you don't have to be French, you have to drive in France because this country provides car manufactures the best choice of all round drivers available. How many tarmac rallies are held in Scandinavia?
In WRC as well as ERC there is a mix of around 50-50 Tarmac-Gravel/snow. Maybe Even Rally Mamagement souls send its clients to Tarmac rallies elsewhere to gain this very necessary experience.

[nafpaktos]

I think now the french school will be on the top for the next many years,the finnish school i think has just finnished.for every single finnish driver in the international scene there will be 10 from france.after france i belive in the future estonian school will be stable on the second place.i wonder what are they doing in italy and in england.italy always has good drivers but they stay on the domestic championsip,they are not used to do rallies abroad.about england what can i say?i have never understood the way they think about rallies and espessially about abroad rallies.

[Hartusvuori]

Interesting topic, as long as it stays objective.

I've been delighted to follow some French events over last years and one can see from the times that the competition is really tough. To me it's clear that why so many French drivers now comes to the highest level, it starts from beating the guy next to you in equal, national series and secondly, it looks like there's good financial support. Otherwise for example Lefebvre would not have done JERC and JWRC at the same time last year. It's good for him and good for us spectators as he is one of the most, if not the most interesting drivers at the moment. Camilli too is very, very impressive and I learned only now that he is so early in his career.

I would love to learn more about French series, what kind of budget they require, how the competetive spirit in general, where does the sponsor money come from, etc. It seems to work.

Of course I do have an idea why Finnish drivers haven't flooded the international top positions lately. We have of course Latvala who is the best driver in the world in a good day. Maybe this will be his good year. Lappi is reigning ERc champ if that's worth anything. Hänninen's achievements aren't that far back in the history either, but of course at the moment his career doesn't look good.

My idea isn't new. It's money. Or the lack of it. Like few forumers on this topic has said already why Finns don't drive abroad and it all comes down to money. If you look at our national series, F-cup is the most popular. It's good for a driver to start with, but one year should do, it's not 2015 in terms of eyeing an international career. Look at FRC. Only a few odd S2000/R5 around and even more rarely are they driven by those considered promising talents. Driving Gr. N Impreza year in year out doesn't take you anywhere - and in most cases those drivers are happy just to be able to have this hobby. In general, Finnish drivers, fast or not so fast drive with outdated machinery because that's the only choice. Other option would be not to drive at all. We have many local heroes, but mostly we don't expect them to do anything international, because we already know they don't have a chance. They could possible stand a chance, but they don't have chance.

There are few Finnish drivers who try their pace abroad, but not always are their the fastest of their generation. Tom mentioned Kinnunen and Lario, of which the latter is just a beginner and the previous, well, a fast guy but not the fastest. BRC champ Jukka Korhonen has talent, but after his title year, meaning last year, did he do any more than three starts of which he twice retired? (Touquet, Circuit of Ireland, Ypres) Tom also mentioned Swede Emil Bergqvist whom I'm following with interest. I've seen him live only twice, both in one make cup. First time was 2013 when Swedish rough Volvo Mekonomen Cup visited Finland. He was clearly head and shoulders above the rest. Last time in Rally Germany I saw Bergqvist do Opel Adam Cup and even if his times were at the top, he didn't stood out that much. There's still potential and of course Swedes put a much hope in him.

This year Samuli Vuorisalo will do Opel Adam Cup and now he is considered as one the fastest of his generation. Adam Cup is not Peugeot Volant, but it shows Vuorisalo is at least trying hard. I wish him all the best. It goes without saying he hasn't competed on tarmac before, though. (Did I mention it's practically impossible to organize tarmac rallies in Finland? At least they are not organized)

I think we will hear more from Henri Haapamäki as well. He has what we know as raw speed, so hopefully he gets chances to refine that.

Teemu Suninen is a joker. I can't tell about him, he is far too early in his career, but for sure it looks like he has an ability to learn fast and it also looks likemsome chances are coming in his favour.

I was spectating a local event today, Finnish Junior Championship event in Laukaa, you know, Rally Finland stages. Maybe three or four R2s. Juniors drove with smaller cars. My driver of the day is Henri Tuomisto. In the end he retired, but up until that was clearly the fastest in his class. In the last FRC event of 2013 Tuomisto was 2nd fastest R2 in his first - and so far only - R2 outing. He was faster than Haapamäki, Vuorisalo, do I have to mention Vatanen, ... He drove the best competition he had had that far. Last year, not much from him. Today he drove R1 Fiesta. But he is fast...

There are names, some more than mentioned here, and I do hope all the time they would get the budgets to go abroad, and then burst into recognition of people that they need.

Oh, and one more: those French youngters are s**t fast. That's why they are up there too.

Dedicated to N.O.T.,

[MJW]

Excellent post Hartusvouri. And equally true of UK. Here it is old cars, either a historic car, or a twenty year old car with big money spent on engines and gearboxes and dampers.Brits seem to hate homogated small cars, but Elfyn Evans started in a small 1000 Micra which was more basic than R1 type.

[AL14]

I think now the french school will be on the top for the next many years,the finnish school i think has just finnished.for every single finnish driver in the international scene there will be 10 from france.after france i belive in the future estonian school will be stable on the second place.i wonder what are they doing in italy and in england.italy always has good drivers but they stay on the domestic championsip,they are not used to do rallies abroad.about england what can i say?i have never understood the way they think about rallies and espessially about abroad rallies.

Regarding Italy yes, the three faster drivers in national champioship doesn't move from there, I don't know why actually, I don't want to think that they don't want to compare themself with other people that can be faster than them and are pleased by their podium after rallyes they know by heart. But, really I don't know much about them, although I'm italian. I have no interest in national champioship and I won't bother you explaining the reasons.

But I'm curious about Tempestini. He's shown good pace lately and he's doing a good job both in ERC and in JWRC. But know what? He drives mostly with romanian flag. It has been "raised" in his career with the help of romanian federation (his father has a company there if I remember well, and I think he his somewhat romanian too, but he's italian in a first instance). That is way far from french mentality and way far from golden ages in '70s and '80s. In summary, do not expect italian world champions for near future.

[N.O.T]

too many words... words words everywhere... keep it simple Hatrsu,,, i am a simple man, that is why i am awesome.

[nafpaktos]

Did I mention it's practically impossible to organize tarmac rallies in Finland? At least they are not organized)

Why?

[AndyRAC]

Agree with Hartsvuori & MJW's posts.
Having seen some coverage of the French Opel Adam Cup, those boys are showing no mercy, they seem to be driving at 10 tenths. I would have liked to see a similar Cup in the UK; I guess Vauxhall aren't interested in rallying. But, a single make series using current cars would be nice - but might not be popular here; as MJW so rightly said.

The most popular rally series in the UK are the Historics - for many British rally fans, the Escort IS rallying.

[nafpaktos]

@AL14
I would like to see albertini and scatolon to try abroad with a solid program and not one-off appearances. An irrelevant question,why a driver to choose adam cup,since opel doesnt get involved in high level on rallying,so less chances for the future.on the other hand peugeot volante......

[AL14]

@AL14
I would like to see albertini and scatolon to try abroad with a solid program and not one-off appearances.

Me too, I like Albertini, I hope he and Scatolon will have more chances and won't stay in CIR all life long.

[Rallyper]

Agree with Hartsvuori & MJW's posts.
Having seen some coverage of the French Opel Adam Cup, those boys are showing no mercy, they seem to be driving at 10 tenths. I would have liked to see a similar Cup in the UK; I guess Vauxhall aren't interested in rallying. But, a single make series using current cars would be nice - but might not be popular here; as MJW so rightly said.

The most popular rally series in the UK are the Historics - for many British rally fans, the Escort IS rallying.

I agree fully with Hartusvuori. Lack of money for Sweden and Finland. Obviously not in Estonia and Norway. And for sure there are good competition in France. I really hope they compete on gravel as well, because otherwise only tarmac isn´t enough being world champion in the future.

As mentioned above Emil Bergkvist today won Swedish sprint championship in old Astra Kit Car. I think besides PT he´s our coming man. Let´s hope he can bring his own funding and we´ll see.

[mousti]

Risto Immonen was showing his talent to the international audience with a old C2 R2 in JERC till his crash at Azores where his international season finished..

Verstuurd vanaf mijn Nexus 5 met Tapatalk

[EightGear]

In the Netherlands we have to be very thankfull to the national federation, without their program no rallying talents would have been discovered.

Mats van den Brand seems to be the next hopeful. He won the D-Mack shootout at M-Sport and won an R5 start on a WRC round this year. I hope to see him in the D-Mack Cup at least this year. Then there is Leo van der Eijk who's fast too but there's no money since his sponsor stopped investing. Same story for Timo van der Marel, who had the same sponsor.

[PLuto]

Still I'm curious to see him in WRC2 for a full season.

Maybe you will see...

[PLuto]

Me too, I like Albertini, I hope he and Scatolon will have more chances and won't stay in CIR all life long.

Albertini was trying one season in Clio R3 European Trophy, but then he has returned home...

[PLuto]

But I'm curious about Tempestini. He's shown good pace lately and he's doing a good job both in ERC and in JWRC. But know what? He drives mostly with romanian flag. It has been "raised" in his career with the help of romanian federation (his father has a company there if I remember well, and I think he his somewhat romanian too, but he's italian in a first instance). That is way far from french mentality and way far from golden ages in '70s and '80s. In summary, do not expect italian world champions for near future.

Tempestini's family is living in Romania for a long time. And Simone is starting with romanian licence from beginning. I dont know how much romanian federation was helping him, but most of the budget is found by his father. And the whole Napoca Rally Academy is not supporting only him, but also other drivers, like for example Florin Tincescu in JERC...

[Hartusvuori]

too many words... words words everywhere... keep it simple Hatrsu,,, i am a simple man, that is why i am awesome.

I relied on the fact you're so awesome you could see from a glimpse or reading between the first few lines, that it's just another Finnish post choking on bitter tears of years and years of humiliation. But I'll keep it simpler the next time :-)

[Hartusvuori]

Why?

Finnish tarmac roads are too fast. Too wide and in too good condition for rallying. If there is one odd road that would suit for a tarmac stage,mit's just one single stretch of road. Not a rally yet. And because of this, Finnish rally cars aren't having option of tarmac spec.

[vino_93]

@AL14
I would like to see albertini and scatolon to try abroad with a solid program and not one-off appearances. An irrelevant question,why a driver to choose adam cup,since opel doesnt get involved in high level on rallying,so less chances for the future.on the other hand peugeot volante......

I don't exactly have the cost, but Adam Cup cost less than 208 Cup. In France (and I think Germany), it's a full tarmac cup.
But it gives you an official drive. Opel did the german championship with Griebel (champion 2013) and Kreim (best junior 2013). This year Griebel will drive JERC with Opel, whereas Bergkivst will drive german championship (Griebel too ?). In France you have an official drive too (Bonato last year, Perry for this season). Unfortunately, Bonato who was ashtoning, has nothing more ... at the beginning there was rumor tha Opel could do a Corsa R5, so it attracts a lot of driver, but now it seems that won't happen ...

[vino_93]

Finnish tarmac roads are too fast. Too wide and in too good condition for rallying. If there is one odd road that would suit for a tarmac stage,mit's just one single stretch of road. Not a rally yet. And because of this, Finnish rally cars aren't having option of tarmac spec.

Isn't there some kinds of Rallysprint on tarmac ? Of course it's not a rally, but it can be a first contact with tarmac.

[tommeke_B]

Great post by @hartusvuori indeed. Finding the budget will always be an issue... The step from national to international level is too big.

@rallyper, in France they do compete on gravel also. In fact, 4 out of 6 events of this year's 208 Rally Cup are on gravel. On this forum I already explained how French gravel rallies work but here I go again... :) The French gravel rallies are held on 2 days, in general they have 10 stages (5 different), one day with 6, another with 4 stages. It's a concept I really like. On friday afternoon/night there's scrutineering (usually between 17 and 21 O'Clock). On saturday and sunday morning around 6 O'Clock the drivers go out of parc fermé, with their rally-cars, for the first and only recce-run. They do recce in same order as the starting order. At around 10 O'Clock they return for long regroup and service, many drivers watch onboard-footage from their recce during that period. Pacenotes are crucial, there's only one run in recce. On these gravel event illegal recce is nearly impossible for many reasons. So... one recce-run. Then off you go. Sometimes over 20 exact same cars (208 R2 in this case), let's say 15 with the ambition to win, maybe 5 to 10 with the potential to win... That's a competition where I like to travel for, even if the event is 800km away from my home.. :)

The 2 other events of 208 Rally Cup this year are Antibes and Rallye du Var. I think it's fair to say those are the two most technical events of the French tarmac championship, especially Rallye du Var. It's just one corner after another, no need to mention meters between the corners. It's more important to mention on which side of the road you must finish the corner in order to be on the correct line for the one that follows... There you learn to drive efficient, the drivers who look most boring in technical sections are often the quickest.

I think the costs for this 208 Rally Cup (6 events, with an average of 170km SS per event, and some necessary testing) could be easily over 75 000 euros, depending on team, insurance, testing etc... As a "normal" young driver, it's nearly impossible to gather that kind of money.

[AL14]

Tempestini's family is living in Romania for a long time. And Simone is starting with romanian licence from beginning. I dont know how much romanian federation was helping him, but most of the budget is found by his father. And the whole Napoca Rally Academy is not supporting only him, but also other drivers, like for example Florin Tincescu in JERC...

Ok then, I rememeber it a bit different but apparently I'm not too much informed about Tempestini's story. Thanks for get facts strighter. :)
In any case, romanian or italian, I think he has potential, let's see.

[Franky]

I agree fully with Hartusvuori. Lack of money for Sweden and Finland. Obviously not in Estonia and Norway.

Don't overestimate the Estonian economy. We aren't even close to Sweden and Finland.

At the moment the latest young gun (in Estonia) should be Karl Martin Volver (he will be 16 at the end of February). Last October he signed a deal with ASRT and he will be competing in Peugeot 208 R2. In Sarma Rally he finished 10th overall, second among 2WD (37 seconds behind Ralfs Sirmacis and 15 seconds ahead of Vasiliy Gryazin). He is also entered at Rally Liepaja (national).

[Rallyper]

Don't overestimate the Estonian economy. We aren't even close to Sweden and Finland.

At the moment the latest young gun (in Estonia) should be Karl Martin Volver (he will be 16 at the end of February). Last October he signed a deal with ASRT and he will be competing in Peugeot 208 R2. In Sarma Rally he finished 10th overall, second among 2WD (37 seconds behind Ralfs Sirmacis and 15 seconds ahead of Vasiliy Gryazin). He is also entered at Rally Liepaja (national).

Maybe not economical, but interest from public, companys and lately even politicians make it a lot easier than for instance in Sweden. We have companies within carsales and bransch on the whole giving support to everything else but motorsport, well, maybe the ladyboys games, but particulary not rallying.

Talking about tarmac we´ve had some guys winning in Europe latest years like Pontus and Patrik Sandell, but in Sweden they fifteen years ago tried a Championship round on tarmac which ended in an fatal accident killing two spectators. End of story for tarmac in Sweden rallies...

@tommeke_B Looks like a good set up for youngsters in France. Even though it´s not cheap. So money talks even in France, but climate better. Wish Swedish National Authority should have sam go in such matters. But the leaders don´t bather...

[PLuto]

I don't exactly have the cost, but Adam Cup cost less than 208 Cup. In France (and I think Germany), it's a full tarmac cup.
But it gives you an official drive. Opel did the german championship with Griebel (champion 2013) and Kreim (best junior 2013). This year Griebel will drive JERC with Opel, whereas Bergkivst will drive german championship (Griebel too ?).

Emil Bergkvist will do JERC too.

[N.O.T]

as usual these threads end up everyone mentioning every local driver below the age of 25 as hopeful...

As for the lack of funds as a reason for the finnish decline it is a joke to say the least...

the fact that the finnish lobby of managers stopped feeding the series with nobodies is for the simple reason that Rallying has evolved to the point that teams realised that only talent will do and not underground tactics.

[Ounin]

I think the money issue of rallying in Scaninavia has serious competition of rallycrossrx whitch canninbalises its sponsoring funds

[Rallyper]

as usual these threads end up everyone mentioning every local driver below the age of 25 as hopeful...

As for the lack of funds as a reason for the finnish decline it is a joke to say the least...

the fact that the finnish lobby of managers stopped feeding the series with nobodies is for the simple reason that Rallying has evolved to the point that teams realised that only talent will do and not underground tactics.

I shouldn´t reply on this, but couldn´t avoid let go:

If you should stick to facts you would be taken seriously. Now you are so up and down nobody would listen. Comments of finnsih rallydrivers history and contemporary standard not needed.

The only thing you contributes is a laughter or two, now and then.

[N.O.T]

well the facts are that when the finnish managers were in control we got Rovanperas and sohlbergs and pykalistos...

when the teams started to wake up and threw those nobodies off the cliff we got Loeb and now Ogier...

[Hartusvuori]

well the facts are that when the finnish managers were in control we got Rovanperas and sohlbergs and pykalistos...

when the teams started to wake up and threw those nobodies off the cliff we got Loeb and now Ogier...

I approached this topic from a different angle. I am not looking for quantity of Finnish drivers to flock the WRC seats, but I'm worried that the current climate refuses the quality to ever surface. The we will never know thing. I don't want anyone to get a seat based only on money and manager skills. Those two factors however helps to develop the talent and see if it goes anywhere. No money, no drives, no career. Simple.

In other words, the development programmes and what goes in the background for Finnish (or add most of any other rallying nations) drivers doesn't work well in international terms at the moment. Then again, rallying has never been about equal opportunities. The wind blows from different direction now.

Lack of funds is a joke? Start explaning, because no one is laughing.

[N.O.T]

Lack of funds is the same for every country when it comes to rallying...

did the Finnish grew a money tree during the manager era and it suddenly dried off ?

you are worried that some talents will never surface, well first of all it was always like that. Rallying is an elite rich boy sport for the most part. But your hypocritic sadness finally surfaced... i did not see any Finnish person shedding tears when those useless finnish nobodies were shoved down the throats of the teams by your managers leaving other hopefuls outside of any kind of opportunity... Where were you when that title less "legend" (LOL) Alen pushed his no good son into the FIAT team leaving scandola fighting village events ??

The tides have changed....

now its time for the rest of Europe to take a bath in your bitter tears full of hypocrisy...

[Hartusvuori]

I thought we were talking future. Can you please concentrate in the topic?

[N.O.T]

For your country there is no future in rallying for at least the next 5-10 years...

happy now ?

[nafpaktos]

NOT i think that you should admit that because of management you could see also drivers from france taking chances that dont deserve.the big hope (lol)chardonnet,because of elena or maurin who is not something special and he is not to an appropriate age to start international career but he has the chances for international outings.what i want to say is that you will always find mediocre drivers in the international scene because of having sponsors or appropriate managers.are youa bit biased towards finnish drivers or thays my idea???

[Rallyper]

NOT´s comment is only here to make others angry. No one should listen to his crap atm.

[tommeke_B]

@nafpaktos: Maurin isn't a young talent, doesn't belong in this topic at all. He never had the ambition of the named young drivers. He's a bit like we have Dennis Kuipers in the Netherlands for example (just faster than Kuipers). Father of Julien Maurin is owner of Groupe Maurin: http://www.groupe-maurin.com They own 51 official garages in the Southern part of France and sell over 20 000 cars per year. About Chardonnet I agree, there are better guys than him.

@NOT: You don't know shit.

[Hartusvuori]

For your country there is no future in rallying for at least the next 5-10 years...

happy now ?

Not really (no pun). You make an argument that I thought had no base and when asked, you can't stand behind what you've said.

I know how you act and what's your role is. I also know that you know about rallying. Sad fact is that your only input has, is and apparently will be that of a barking dog.

[nafpaktos]

Tom yes i agree about what you say about maurin,i mentioned him as a driver who take chances that he doesnt deserve.yaccoo is his major sponsor,does he owns this company?

[tommeke_B]

Tom yes i agree about what you say about maurin,i mentioned him as a driver who take chances that he doesnt deserve.yaccoo is his major sponsor,does he owns this company?

I'm not sure if Yacco is owned by him/his family. But if not, it's probably part of some business deal. Anyway Maurin proved to be fast in France, and I'm sure that on tarmac his times aren't going to be too bad. But still no doubt that his projects exist because of the people/family behind him. Did you ever complain about Prokop not deserving his chances by the way? For me it's the exact same thing... ;)

[janvanvurpa]

Ok then, I rememeber it a bit different but apparently I'm not too much informed about Tempestini's story. Thanks for get facts strighter. :)
In any case, romanian or italian, I think he has potential, let's see.

And a great name too! Very evocative.

[AL14]

And a great name too! Very evocative.

Yes but you have to know that "ini" sounds as a diminutive in italian, literally translated it would be "little storms" or "little tempests" :)

[nafpaktos]

Did you ever complain about Prokop not deserving his chances by the way? For me it's the exact same thing... ;)

For me it's the same too.i mentioned these two french drivers cause NOT praises the french rally system and the drivers come out from it,what i want to say is that there is no faultless system and always drivers from every country will take chances they dont deserve and not only from finland.

[janvanvurpa]

Yes but you have to know that "ini" sounds as a diminutive in italian, literally translated it would be "little storms" or "little tempests" :)


I know*...but still better a "little Tempest" than say " Big Fogg" .

(one of the things I always find annoying is how we don't have easy "diminutive" endings or we don't commonly use them so much in English... in Spanish and some degree in French its not just or not always "little' but also affectionate. So nice to have a clear marker for when others feel closer, like when people would say "Hey Johhny, let's get a beer" in France I knew we were that little bit closer, like tu and vous or Spanish tu and usted ---and that made me think--WTF is the formal 'you" in Italian?)


*First Language as a wee babe was Spanish, second was English, 3rd was Swedish at 17, then came French in mid-20s to late 20s...now when I'm old i have little girls 9 and 7 and they first speak Chinese here, then English and now both chose to take bi-lingual English and Spanish language in school...and I had to tell them I can only help so much because the Spanish is pushed so far back..I do show them very often just how close the words and sentances are between Spanish, French and Italian and to make the real crazy I show them Catalan, too. We all love language here.)

[vino_93]

For me it's the same too.i mentioned these two french drivers cause NOT praises the french rally system and the drivers come out from it,what i want to say is that there is no faultless system and always drivers from every country will take chances they dont deserve and not only from finland.

Maurin has nothing to see with the french system. He grows by his own way, bringing money, driving powerfull cars without being able of it ... then he understood, take lesson with Bernardi and improve a lot until now to be a good gentleman driver. But he never took part to some cups.

Yacco has nothing to see with his family. It's and old french sponsor. They supported Vigion, when he lost his driving license. They needed someone to be in, and took Maurin. I still don't exactly now why ... I can suppose it's some kind of business agreement, or Maurin had money so it costs less to run the car and the team. But since the end of 2009, they are partner.

[N.O.T]

For me it's the same too.i mentioned these two french drivers cause NOT praises the french rally system and the drivers come out from it,what i want to say is that there is no faultless system and always drivers from every country will take chances they dont deserve and not only from finland.

I never praised the french system or the FFSA... in general i avoid praising people, teams, cars... the over glorification of things is something i despise. I only give respect when its due and for the right reasons, not because someone is from the same country as i am, not because i own a car from a manufacturer in the WRC and not because i met a driver once and he gave me his autograph and was nice to me...

I am just being honest and i speak the truth, i understand that most people cannot stand so much negativity because they already have enough during their sad days in this world and they probably come in here to cheer up and i spoil the fun... but i prefer to be honest, at least in that way you know what you are dealing with.

and the truth on this matter is that all these years the series were under the control of the managers that fed useless doggies to the WRC... i mean you have to be semi retarded to expect the best drivers to come from a country that has no idea what tarmac rallying is... but the managers paid the teams through sponsors and the teams were happy.... then the best driver in the history of motorsport came and teams realised that there is another way of doing things... and they followed that and we got Ogier now... think about it... Latvala through his managers and connections is in the sport for 10 years almost and Ogier comes again out of nowhere and ridicules him like a kid... if you cannot see somethign REALLY wrong with that picture you are just a star trek person... which is not necessarily a bad thing...maybe.

[Rallyper]

NOT - you are unfortenately not honest in your analysis. It´s easy to see, not only in your latest quote.

[Hartusvuori]

Improved post, NOT, though you're still dwelling in the past. Of course managers (or one manager) have shaped the history of rallying in helping Finnish drivers to get good seats in teams, but you give awful lot of credit to that one if we are otherwise a nation that only a retard would think produce decent rally drivers. You made that judgement by looking at a map?

I was trying to shape a picture of current young drivers who try
make their way through to at least some level, on their own, on their own work, on their risk. Some of these drivers gets picked up by a contact that help them out, but they've made that contact on their success. These young talents with similar actions live in every nation that have any sort of rallying going on.

I'll end here.

[Ounin]

Probably there aren't borders anymore here in Europe, the new approach, for a young talented guy you have to move out of your home country and gain as much experience and attention as possible. In this stage you probably need a sponsor but management is not major factor.

It's very funny but why are the Estonians so quiet on this topic? Next to France the best rally talents producing country is without a doubt Estonia, they are everywhere in ERC as well as WRC. I would like to know what happens over there.

[AL14]

So before Loeb all rally was a (finnish) lie?

[Franky]

Probably there aren't borders anymore here in Europe, the new approach, for a young talented guy you have to move out of your home country and gain as much experience and attention as possible. In this stage you probably need a sponsor but management is not major factor.

It's very funny but why are the Estonians so quiet on this topic? Next to France the best rally talents producing country is without a doubt Estonia, they are everywhere in ERC as well as WRC. I would like to know what happens over there.

In short, those who've found money are doing ERC and WRC.

Those who aren't fortunate enough are doing mostly Estonian championship on a tight budget. Regarding the next generation of young guns there are a few. And as I mentioned in reply to Per some pages ago the youngest gun is still a 15 year old, who's driving this season a Peugeot 208 R2. At Sarma Rally he was 2nd among 2WD.

Hopefully some other Estonian can give a more detailed assessment of the Estonian rally scene.

[vino_93]

In Autohebdo, Vasselon confirms there will be a second young driver in their test team, but he can't say who for the moment, as the contract is still in negotiation.
Autohebdo thinks it will be Suninen.

[christy but]

young irish lads such as keith Cronin ,ali fisher ,rob duggan ,Daniel McKenna ,dean raferty and many more are names to watch out for in international rallying if they can get a budget,,lots of very good drivers here in the Ireland north and south

[Gabriel Tamm]

Probably there aren't borders anymore here in Europe, the new approach, for a young talented guy you have to move out of your home country and gain as much experience and attention as possible. In this stage you probably need a sponsor but management is not major factor.

It's very funny but why are the Estonians so quiet on this topic? Next to France the best rally talents producing country is without a doubt Estonia, they are everywhere in ERC as well as WRC. I would like to know what happens over there.

About Estonians, as Franky mentioned, young Estonian Karl Martin Volver is really really talented guy out here. He's only 15 years old but doing big things already. In ERC Liepaja he had respectively 4&5th overall time in some stages. So, if he gets noticed by right guys, he should be Märtin type of driver :)

[dimviii]

In ERC Liepaja he had respectively 4&5th overall time in some stages. So, if he gets noticed by right guys, he should be Märtin type of driver :)

with what car?

[Gabriel Tamm]

with what car?

With Peugeot 208 R2 :)

[Rallyper]

I guess all the talk above has taking in mind that Emil Bergkvist not anymore is talented. He has proved himself as established coming WRC driver, ehh?

[Rallyper]

About Estonians, as Franky mentioned, young Estonian Karl Martin Volver is really really talented guy out here. He's only 15 years old but doing big things already. In ERC Liepaja he had respectively 4&5th overall time in some stages. So, if he gets noticed by right guys, he should be Märtin type of driver :)

So which stages would that be? Could not see his name anywhere top 8?? Or you mean overall in ERC3?

[EstWRC]

So which stages would that be? Could not see his name anywhere top 8?? Or you mean overall in ERC3?

http://www.ewrc-results.com/results.php?e=20139&s=80479&t=Rally-Liepāja-2015
http://www.ewrc-results.com/results.php?e=20139&s=80482&t=Rally-Liepāja-2015
http://www.ewrc-results.com/results.php?e=20139&s=80483&t=Rally-Liepāja-2015

[dimviii]

http://www.ewrc-results.com/results.php?e=20139&s=80479&t=Rally-Liepāja-2015
http://www.ewrc-results.com/results.php?e=20139&s=80482&t=Rally-Liepāja-2015
http://www.ewrc-results.com/results.php?e=20139&s=80483&t=Rally-Liepāja-2015

very impressive for his age.

[Rallyper]

Maybe I missunderstood which rally or something, but not on this I reccon...

http://www.fiaerc.com/events/live/id/28

[Jarek Z]

Maybe I missunderstood which rally or something, but not on this I reccon...

http://www.fiaerc.com/events/live/id/28

I think you are both talking about Rally Liepaja. But Rallyper means the ERC round held last week and EstWRC means probably Latvian championship round only. The Latvian championship was most probably held 1 or 2 hours after the ERC round?

[Franky]

Jarek Z, you're correct.

[Rallyper]

So conditions can´t really be compared I would presume.

[pantealex]

So conditions can´t really be compared I would presume.

That boy is 15y old, can not drive ERC.

[irish_tiger]

I never praised the french system or the FFSA... in general i avoid praising people, teams, cars... the over glorification of things is something i despise. I only give respect when its due and for the right reasons, not because someone is from the same country as i am, not because i own a car from a manufacturer in the WRC and not because i met a driver once and he gave me his autograph and was nice to me...

I am just being honest and i speak the truth, i understand that most people cannot stand so much negativity because they already have enough during their sad days in this world and they probably come in here to cheer up and i spoil the fun... but i prefer to be honest, at least in that way you know what you are dealing with.

and the truth on this matter is that all these years the series were under the control of the managers that fed useless doggies to the WRC... i mean you have to be semi retarded to expect the best drivers to come from a country that has no idea what tarmac rallying is... but the managers paid the teams through sponsors and the teams were happy.... then the best driver in the history of motorsport came and teams realised that there is another way of doing things... and they followed that and we got Ogier now... think about it... Latvala through his managers and connections is in the sport for 10 years almost and Ogier comes again out of nowhere and ridicules him like a kid... if you cannot see somethign REALLY wrong with that picture you are just a star trek person... which is not necessarily a bad thing...maybe.

I have to agree , but the reason why we have 'two frogs' dominating the sport is real competition in France .I was at the Rallye Du Var in 2012 i couldn't get over the amount of 'one make series' going on .
You had an R1 Class - The Renault Twingo Cup , ninteen entries - and one Ford Fiesta
The R2 Class :Renault Twingo R2 Cup , ten entries - and four other entries in different makes
The R3 class : thirty seven entries in total !
Peugeot 207 RC R3T cup :twelve cars
Citroën DS3 R3T cup : twelve cars
Renault Clio R3 Cup : seven cars
other makes : six cars
There are other cups going on on other French events in R1 and R2 classes etc , and why is this ? because France has three Car manufacturers - Peugeot , Citroën, and Renault so they are all competing against each other so young drivers get a chance . You dont have this in any other country.
And N.O.T your correct in saying that Latvala is being 'shoved on to us' he has more rallying done and yet he still is not a great driver - he is in the best car but most of the time cant get it over the line . In Germany 2014 when he had the Rally in his hand he decided to making wine instead !
You said Oj ridicules him - correct - At the Monte a few weeks ago i was in Sospel at regroup before the last stage and Latvala asked Ogier what was his time in the last stage ? response was ' ten faster then you ' .... just to mess with his head .
Wilson and all these managers etc have alot to answer for - more interested in what a doggie as you call them will bring to the team in the form of money- no interest in bringing a talented driver to the team .

[N.O.T]

who is Oj ?

[irish_tiger]

Ogier .....thought you would have snapped on to that :-)

[Rallyper]

And N.O.T your correct in saying that Latvala is being 'shoved on to us' he has more rallying done and yet he still is not a great driver - he is in the best car but most of the time cant get it over the line .
.

Not a great driver? Second last year in WDC? Should WRC only have one driver or only French drivers? That would suit you, wouldn´t it?

[noel157]

Not a great driver? Second last year in WDC? Should WRC only have one driver or only French drivers? That would suit you, wouldn´t it?

Irish Tiger has a point.

It's hard not to agree that Lavala has not made the most of his opportunities and experience. And he doesn't half moan alot about not having the feeling, rhythm etc. He's quite capable of beating Ogier this weekend, but will he?

[Rallyper]

Irish Tiger has a point.

It's hard not to agree that Lavala has not made the most of his opportunities and experience. And he doesn't half moan alot about not having the feeling, rhythm etc. He's quite capable of beating Ogier this weekend, but will he?

Not a great driver? I repeat. Well, he hasn´t made the first place. But still - not a great driver? The way people go in order to ashieve their goals vary. In his case he had better conditions than most others. Anything wrong with that?

[noel157]

Not a great driver? I repeat. Well, he hasn´t made the first place. But still - not a great driver? The way people go in order to ashieve their goals vary. In his case he had better conditions than most others. Anything wrong with that?

A great driver (or not) wasn't my point. Personally I do think he is a great(ish) driver and yes, different people do things differently to achieve their goals but after 144 WRC starts in 13 years, factory drives and plenty of budget he's taking his time to achieve his goal.
As NOT said, Ogier popped up and pushed him to the sidelines. In my view he has either wasted the chances he has had, and currently has, or he is not the full package. Perhaps a Hirvonen like driver but slightly better.

[Doon]

Latvala is a faster driver (sometimes), but not a better driver than Hirvonen.

Hirvonen made the most of his opportunities and ability, and was closer to actually netting a WRC championship than Latvala ever has been. I can't see Latvala ever winning a championship, especially not on merit.

[Rallyper]

Judging Latvala only on Ogiers abilities and what he´d done? You should compare to more drivers to be serious. SO has done a faster travel up to top, for sure. But judging others compared to that isn´t fair.

[noel157]

Latvala is a faster driver (sometimes), but not a better driver than Hirvonen.

Hirvonen made the most of his opportunities and ability, and was closer to actually netting a WRC championship than Latvala ever has been. I can't see Latvala ever winning a championship, especially not on merit.

Point taken. Poor comparison by me.

[AndyRAC]

Great is an overused word. He is a very good driver, capable of great performances. However, as Noel has said, too many times we hear him complain about “no feeling, no rhythm, etc “
This year is his best chance for the Title – he has to take it.
I also think if he wasn't Finnish he'd have been dropped whilst at M-Sport.

[AdvEvo]

Money brings you further then talent in motorsports these days!

[N.O.T]

Money brings you further then talent in motorsports these days!

depends how you define "further" though...

[Ounin]

I don't think it's up to this topic naming older Finnish drivers who are driving WRC for many years or just quit. And the name Ogier pops up too many times. It's about young talents here and their abilities to enter into ERC or WRC. And being successful.
Motorsport is very expensive and unfair and always was and always will be. As wel as drivers who will be shoved on to us, no shocking news to me. Motorsport is a big industry and its existence is there only because of the many rich drivers entering and not a dozen talented ones. Put romantics aside to ovoid too much hypocrisy here.
I am more interested in the talents we see around us everywhere in the world and how they manage to progress, how difficult it is, rather than calling names of Finns who haven't fulfill big budget expectations.

[AndyRAC]

Money brings you further then talent in motorsports these days!

It depends on what motorsport you take part in....Some still value talent over £$£$£$£$

[Rallyper]

If you aint got talent all the money in the world wouldn´t get you in a WRC-team and getting WDC silver medalist. Talent in combination with money gets you further for sure...

[AL14]

I think you're a bit too harsh with Latvala, he has been runner up twice and in his day he is the fastest one, he has beaten Ogier in a straight fight more than once. Don't want to say he is as good as him but he's not just a good driver, and as Rallyper said you can have all the money you want but you don't win 14 rallies with them.

[WUff1]

Latvala is already 29 - so wrong thread here to discuss him.

[vino_93]

I have to agree , but the reason why we have 'two frogs' dominating the sport is real competition in France .I was at the Rallye Du Var in 2012 i couldn't get over the amount of 'one make series' going on .
You had an R1 Class - The Renault Twingo Cup , ninteen entries - and one Ford Fiesta
The R2 Class :Renault Twingo R2 Cup , ten entries - and four other entries in different makes
The R3 class : thirty seven entries in total !
Peugeot 207 RC R3T cup :twelve cars
Citroën DS3 R3T cup : twelve cars
Renault Clio R3 Cup : seven cars
other makes : six cars
There are other cups going on on other French events in R1 and R2 classes etc , and why is this ? because France has three Car manufacturers - Peugeot , Citroën, and Renault so they are all competing against each other so young drivers get a chance . You dont have this in any other country.


In a way, you are right saying that the three manufacturers enters in France because it's there country. But in another way, that's not exactly explaining this. I mean, Peugeot Sport, Citroën Racing and Renault Sport Technologies aren't doing R3, R2 and R1 to promote themselves. No they want to sell it, and make business with it.
And they do a lot of cups in France, because it's their main market to sell these cars (and then the spare part to run it in second / third hand), not because it's France, their country. If Slovenia was their main market, all of them would organize cups in Slovenia.
But it's sure that the popularity of the french manufacturers, and the strong links they created with the local drivers help them to have this big market.

You can see in France other cups done by outsider manufacturers (Suzuki recently, and now Opel, and there's rumor that a GT86 R3 trophy could be created), for the same reason. One make cup are part of french rally history, and there's always a lot of driver to start in it. And one make cup is the best way to sell car. None would buy an Adam Cup or a 207 RC R3T to do performance in rally. But with a cup, you buy it, because you fight on equal terms with other drivers.


For me, nothing prevent doing cup in other countries. It's based on shoulders of local dealers. In Spain, RMC Competition is doing a Fiesta R2 Cup, which seems to be good. You just need to have good prize (money or a drive for the next season).
I'm quite sure, if Peugeot Italia wanted to do a 208 Cup with a one-year 208 T16 drive, there would be a lot of young guys started (a maybe a future star).

[AndyRAC]

A lot of countries arent interested in a one make Cup series. I'll eat my hat if we ever get a Vauxhall Adam Cup in the UK.

[noel157]

"Is there a better sound than that of Porsche engined Flat-6 ???"

Other than a BDA in Kielder, no.

[Rallyper]

Jouhki to invest in Teemu Sunninen for the future. Interesting. Sunninen in my opinion hasn´t done that much to get that amount of attention, or has he?

[sollitt]

... the reason why we have 'two frogs' dominating the sport ... The reason we have "two frogs" dominating the sport is because they have been nurtured and supported throughout their entire career and have enjoyed the significant advantages of factory drives from the outset.
There is an enormous advantage in knowing that the outcome of today's event will not adversely impact your career tomorrow.
Neither were particularly special early in their careers and both made mistakes but there is significant confidence which comes knowing that the mistakes carry no consequence. The ability to test limits is enhanced and the learning process quickened.
There is no question that the Sebs are head and shoulders above all others and have been so for the past decade however they are the product of privilege few, if any, others have enjoyed.

[janvanvurpa]

The reason we have "two frogs" dominating the sport is because they have been nurtured and supported throughout their entire career and have enjoyed the significant advantages of factory drives from the outset.
There is an enormous advantage in knowing that the outcome of today's event will not adversely impact your career tomorrow.
Neither were particularly special early in their careers and both made mistakes but there is significant confidence which comes knowing that the mistakes carry no consequence. The ability to test limits is enhanced and the learning process quickened.
There is no question that the Sebs are head and shoulders above all others and have been so for the past decade however they are the product of privilege few, if any, others have enjoyed.

Well mostly agree...thingis there have been a few others who have the privilege of having essentially limitless funds to play at all kinds of nonsense...some well known American springs to mind but I forget the name at the moment---and despite---or maybe because of the no consequence thing---achieved nothing...

Those guys still musty posses an internal drive to improve, and the disciplne to apply what they learn and they obviously have and the results show itin a long string of achievements-
--more than just hits on You-tube like Ben Clock or whatever that guy was called...

[sollitt]

Those guys still musty posses an internal drive to improve, and the disciplne to apply what they learn Absolutely agree.

[N.O.T]

Latvala had the same treatment, hirvonen also, solberg also, martin also and many many others...

Loeb was not special early ?? LOL...

[stefanvv]

Loeb was not special early ?? LOL...

No he wasn't. Of course not on asphalt, he was special there. But he learned a lot from those who "ridiculed" later

[N.O.T]

No he wasn't. Of course not on asphalt, he was special there. But he learned a lot from those who "ridiculed" later

are you aware of the fact that he was french GRAVEL champion ???

[stefanvv]

are you aware of the fact that he was french GRAVEL champion ???

Not really, I just watch youtube, that's all

[N.O.T]

Not really, I just watch youtube, that's all

then why you said he was not special on gravel ?? he won his first gravel event 2 years in his WRC career...

[stefanvv]

then why you said he was not special on gravel ?? he won his first gravel event 2 years in his WRC career...

One year of learning, 2nd has a win, he learns

[sollitt]

Latvala had the same treatment, hirvonen also, solberg also, martin also and many many others... Really, they were supported by their national organizations who, through a direct line to the world's largest car manufacturer, arranged a factory drive? Remarkable. They kept that quiet.


Loeb was not special early ?? LOL...That's right. LOL ... Nothing special.

[N.O.T]

Really, they were supported by their national organizations who, through a direct line to the world's largest car manufacturer, arranged a factory drive? Remarkable. They kept that quiet.

That's right. LOL ... Nothing special.

well hirvonen and latvala had very early in their careers manufacturer support... didn't they ? a contract with subaru after 3 years of private drives for solberg at the age of 25 and a contract at ford at the age of 22 for latvala... hirvonen had support from manufacturer at the age of 24...

Loebs first contract was at the age of 26... he was driving the s1600 until then...

who had better results than Loeb and Ogier early in their careers... so that you consider them not special ?

next time fail better...

that is the problem when you decide to open your mouth without checking the true facts and using those in your head instead...

[sollitt]

There is a significant difference between having "some manufacturer support" and having a guaranteed drive ... and a pay cheque.

Loeb's S1600 campaign was in factory car after which he was catapulted into WRC car. Prior to that he had won some "ladyboy' domestic series but not much else. So nothing particularly 'special' there. In fact his earlier exploits in WRC cars were nothing special. He grabbed an opportunity and excelled. For that I am a fan.
But that doesn't change the fact that his was a privileged beginning and a career with a level of certainty not enjoyed by others.

Please return to combing your hair and leave the rally discussions to those who know what they're talking about.

[N.O.T]

as i said and you did not answer... name a driver with a better early start than him.

Manufacturer support means very little... Latvala had way more starts than him at the age of Loeb, solberg and hirvonen also... and Gronholm had no support until the age of 30+ and he was Loebs closest rival...

if you are a garbage dog no matter what support you get you will fail and pay your whole life... and visa versa.

[dimviii]

Loebs first contract was at the age of 26... he was driving the s1600 until then...
.

and won all rallies he finished at wrc with s1600 car.Rallies he visited first time.

[danon]

Limited edition...

http://s16.postimg.org/j678x8lad/cartoon.jpg

[nafpaktos]

and won all rallies he finished at wrc with s1600 car.Rallies he visited first time.

Ok,great driver- with factory support-, but I dont think he had great rivals at jwrc.i suppose and some of his rivals have visited some events for first time not only him.

[Barreis]

Dallavilla was good rival at that time...

[N.O.T]

Dallavilla was good rival at that time...

he was a joke...

[Barreis]

Yes he was compared to Loeb...

[nafpaktos]

None of his rivals from junior did something at top level.i dont say this trying to downgrade loeb.

[N.O.T]

Ok,great driver- with factory support-, but I dont think he had great rivals at jwrc.i suppose and some of his rivals have visited some events for first time not only him.

still remember the kittens mewing about Loeb car using 4 intakes to his saxo instead of the standard 1 intake the s1600 used... then citroen changed to the 1 intake as per s1600 rules and the results remained the same...

check your facts again... basso, duval, stohl, robert.... for Jwrc standards the rivals were good... but Loeb was just too good... and the situation did not change much when he entered the WRC... he ridiculed many people there as well, many dreams shattered, many nightmares created and the pain and the devastation he caused still burns the souls of the infidels today...

[Barreis]

At that time it was no rule under 28 if I remember good...

[nafpaktos]

check your facts again... basso, duval, stohl, robert.... for Jwrc standards the rivals were good...

Yes for junior

[dimviii]

Ok,great driver- with factory support-, but I dont think he had great rivals at jwrc.i suppose and some of his rivals have visited some events for first time not only him.

really?

Basso
Duval
Robert Cedric
Bernardi
McShea
Dalavilla
Vallejo
Rousellot
Valimaki

most of them visited for first time.But only him won at all he finished.This year competition was very big,with very good names and future champions.

Ogier just for reference won against Burkart,Prokop,Sandell.Bettega,Molder,Kosciuszko etc at jwrc at 3 rallies out of 6

[dimviii]

None of his rivals from junior did something at top level.i dont say this trying to downgrade loeb.

what are you talking?
McShea pwrc champion

Basso IRC ,European, and Italian champion 4 times

Duval works crew who managed to be faster at some stages against Loeb

Bernardi In 2005 he won the French tarmac championship,After Markko Martin stepped down from the factory Peugeot following the death of his co-driver Michael Park on Rally GB, Bernardi replaced him in the second Peugeot 307 WRC on the asphalt events in France and Spain.[1] He finished eighth in Corsica and then sixth in Catalunya. from wiki

Dallavilla Italian champion 1997

[nafpaktos]

I repeat, good drivers for junior BUT NONE of them had a proper career at top level.duval matched loebs times only on tarmac and not very usually.i dont remember many rallies to have finished higher than seb.

[nafpaktos]

I dont understand why you do comparisons.did i ever said that ogier had serious rivals on jwrc?he was the onle serious competitor,we agree on that but this has nothing to do with our conversation.

[dimviii]

I repeat, good drivers for junior BUT NONE of them had a proper career at top level.duval matched loebs times only on tarmac and not very usually.i dont remember many rallies to have finished higher than seb.

so you expected at Loebs time at wrc to compete with Gronholm,Hirvonen.Latavla and Ogier?

get real mate.

[dimviii]

I dont understand why you do comparisons.did i ever said that ogier had serious rivals on jwrc?he was the onle serious competitor,we agree on that but this has nothing to do with our conversation.

i write it just to compare the competition that you didn t find serious.But didnt helped you to understant.
You can always show me a jwrc year with much better competition than Loebs.

[nafpaktos]

You can always show me a jwrc year with much better competition than Loebs.
No i cant,but i repeat none of them did something serious afterwards on top level.i cant find where we disagree?

[Formaldehyde]

In fact his earlier exploits in WRC cars were nothing special.

Maybe my memory fails me, but wasn't Loeb leading his first ever WRC event straight away in 2001 until his Xsara broke down? If not the first, it had to be his 2nd or 3rd WRC event. I even remember that Sainz, McRae & company tried to stage a protest to the FIA because they thought Citroen was cheating, that they were breaking some rule with the new Xsara. They just couldn't believe that this Loeb rookie was beating them so easily. Am I crazy? Didn't this happen?

[nafpaktos]

We all know what loeb did.we are talking about the competition in jwrc.of course he was faster than big stars in the big category but i dont think the title on the jwrc is on his highlights,thats what i want to say.no one questioned his value.

[Simmi]

By mid-season they will be the two most successful drivers in WRC history in terms of rally wins.

With all due respect, the likes of Niall McShea and Aaron Burkhart could not be more irrelevant in the debate.

[jparker]

Winner doesn't necessary mean best driver.
Loeb had best factory support, best financial package, best tech research and testing throughout his entire career.
I don't remember any other driver having such luxury.
No other factory team (except Citroen) have invested so much $$$ to get the job done.
I'm not saying Loeb is not one of the best drivers, but is he the best of the best?
Since there is no equal grounds for comparison, I'm not sure about that.

[N.O.T]

I'm not saying Loeb is not one of the best drivers, but is he the best of the best?


yes he is...

Makinen had the same treatment in mitsubishi, Solberg at Subaru, Gronholm at peugeot and generally teams support their best driver the best way they can... the fact that you do not remember it is probably because you do not want to accept the facts because they hurt too much.

Loeb arrived at citroen in team where Sainz was paying to rally through telefonica and Mcrae with the most expensive contract in the team... he treated them like they were nobodies and discarted them like they were used diapers...

The difference between Loeb and the afformentioned sick dogs is that Loeb was man enough to make full use of the support he was getting to become the best motorsport driver ever lived so far.

[AndyRAC]

Best Motorsport driver ever? That's a big call..... He's probably the best of the current era, but best ever, hmmm. I'd check your motorsport history books before making that claim.

[AL14]

Well he's not the first one to say it. For sure it is not that unlikely.

[nafpaktos]

yes he is...

Makinen had the same treatment in mitsubishi, Solberg at Subaru, Gronholm at peugeot and generally teams support their best driver the best way they can..

Yes he is top driver but you say about tommi and marcus.loeb had always top car the other two NO.solberg for sure is many levels down to loeb but how many years had top car?these are facts NOT
Tell me one year from 2004-2011 that loeb hadnt top car.all i want to say is that yes heaybe is the best of the best but he had the perfect conditions for that
I dont think he could take a title with evo 7 for example.

[N.O.T]

Yes he is top driver but you say about tommi and marcus.loeb had always top car the other two NO.solberg for sure is many levels down to loeb but how many years had top car?these are facts NOT
Tell me one year from 2004-2011 that loeb hadnt top car.all i want to say is that yes heaybe is the best of the best but he had the perfect conditions for that
I dont think he could take a title with evo 7 for example.

the first few championships he won with citroen (maybe2-3) the car was crap on gravel and top on tarmac then he indeed had the top car.

Makinen always had the top car apart from his last year with mitsubishi... then he moved to a championship winning car and was run over like a newborn dog from Solberg... Gronholm as well managed to lose a championship with the best car which was the peugeot...

only 2 drivers won championships with cars that where not top... Loeb and Burns.

[N.O.T]

Best Motorsport driver ever? That's a big call..... He's probably the best of the current era, but best ever, hmmm. I'd check your motorsport history books before making that claim.

you can check whatever books you like... the facts are facts...

[nafpaktos]

the first few championships he won with citroen (maybe2-3) the car was crap on gravel
No he was just bulding his speed pn gravel the car was ok.when you say crap you mean worse than 307?

[N.O.T]

by the way we are off topic... if mods wake up and move the things about Loeb to an appropriate thread i can ridicule all the naysayers there... no need to show your incompetence at understanding simple facts on every thread.

[stefanvv]

Gronholm as well managed to lose a championship with the best car which was the peugeot...

Peugeot was quite fragile that year, may be fastest car, but not the best.

[N.O.T]

No he was just bulding his speed pn gravel the car was ok.when you say crap you mean worse than 307?

yes..

plus he won against the top evolution of 206 as well...

[nafpaktos]

Makinen always had the top car apart from his last year with mitsubishi

NO

[Rallyper]

the first few championships he won with citroen (maybe2-3) the car was crap on gravel and top on tarmac then he indeed had the top car.

Makinen always had the top car apart from his last year with mitsubishi... then he moved to a championship winning car and was run over like a newborn dog from Solberg... Gronholm as well managed to lose a championship with the best car which was the peugeot...

only 2 drivers won championships with cars that where not top... Loeb and Burns.

I don´t get it. Subaru wasn´t a top car in 2001? Right? And it was a top car in 2004? It really wasn´t.

[tommeke_B]

Back to young talented drivers maybe? Loeb, Burns, Solberg, Gronholm, those were young talents, but don't belong in this topic. 20 years ago yes...

@Rallyper why don't you talk about the prestation of Emil Bergkvist in WRC Sweden in stead? No real competition for him but for me he was far more impressive than Veiby (who also didn't have competition in his class). Very fast and tidy driving. :)

[N.O.T]

I don´t get it. Subaru wasn´t a top car in 2001? Right? And it was a top car in 2004? It really wasn´t.

Solberg was champion in 2003 with a subaru... so yes it was.

In 2001 Peugot was the best car by miles.

[jparker]

Well, some people forget that no other factory team had direct support by manufacturers. I don't want to take anything away from Prodrive and other middle man, but they simply have no chance against Citroen army of engineers.
Although I have no hard proof, I believe no other team except Citroen have invested so much money for WRC development.
That's why I will never accept Loeb as "best of the best". He just purchased his titles with huge support no one else had.

[MJW]

Well, some people forget that no other factory team had direct support by manufacturers. I don't want to take anything away from Prodrive and other middle man, but they simply have no chance against Citroen army of engineers.
Although I have no hard proof, I believe no other team except Citroen have invested so much money for WRC development.
That's why I will never accept Loeb as "best of the best". He just purchased his titles with huge support no one else had.
At the height of their success Citroen's annual test budget was equal to Subaru's whole season budget and Citroen had more chefs than Prodrive had engineers. Having said that SKODA was not a small budget team, they had more money under Audi bosses than Citroen and they didn't manage a win.You have to hand it to Citroen they were the ultimate in professionalism. It's the same approach in WTCC, even using some of their test days in having 3 Citroen's crash into each other to replicate racing damage and how that affects the car. aero etc.

[Rallyper]

Back to young talented drivers maybe? Loeb, Burns, Solberg, Gronholm, those were young talents, but don't belong in this topic. 20 years ago yes...

@Rallyper why don't you talk about the prestation of Emil Bergkvist in WRC Sweden in stead? No real competition for him but for me he was far more impressive than Veiby (who also didn't have competition in his class). Very fast and tidy driving. :)

Yes, back to topics. No more crying over Loeb and others... ;)

Emil Bergkvist: Tried to mention him here and there. Maybe also on twitter. But yes, he´s one of the coming men absolutely. Doing so good stagetimes in RS and showed also what he can do by winning Adam cup last year(?) in Germany becoming Opel´s factorydriver. Have a look at www.opel-motorsport.com

[Rallyper]

How about this one?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B-O3DOdIAAIY0O4.jpg:large

[Maui J.]

only 2 drivers won championships with cars that where not top... Loeb and Burns.

Well, that is debatable, I'm not sure how much inferior Burn's Impreza was to the the 206 or Focus. I would say they were close in performance. The Accent and Lancer (still running Group A specs) were possibly inferior.

Anyway just to put your debate into perspective regarding Championship win in inferior car. I think you only need to look at the 1982 season.
Walter Rohrl in a Opel Ascona vs the might of the Audi Quattro. Now that is a championship win in 'not a top car'.

[vino_93]

Emil Bergkvist: Tried to mention him here and there. Maybe also on twitter. But yes, he´s one of the coming men absolutely. Doing so good stagetimes in RS and showed also what he can do by winning Adam cup last year(?) in Germany becoming Opel´s factorydriver. Have a look at www.opel-motorsport.com

didn't you notice he achieved a great Rally Liepaja ?
For sure he is a good hope. Now let's see him on full JERC champ, in order to see what he can do on tarmac, and classic gravel events. But for sure, one the guys to follow.

[N.O.T]

Well, some people forget that no other factory team had direct support by manufacturers. I don't want to take anything away from Prodrive and other middle man, but they simply have no chance against Citroen army of engineers.
Although I have no hard proof, I believe no other team except Citroen have invested so much money for WRC development.
That's why I will never accept Loeb as "best of the best". He just purchased his titles with huge support no one else had.

which one of your legends did he ridicule and made him run away ??

Why Mcrae and Sainz and duval and sordo and Ogier did not manag what Loeb did with the citroen ?? Loeb came into the team when Mcrae was 34.... Loeb won titles until 38...

dogs of nothingness roaming the garbage cans have nothing on the greatest ever...

[Rallyper]

didn't you notice he achieved a great Rally Liepaja ?
For sure he is a good hope. Now let's see him on full JERC champ, in order to see what he can do on tarmac, and classic gravel events. But for sure, one the guys to follow.

Yes of course I know what he did in Liepaja. And the week before he became Swedish RallySprint Champion in 2WD in an old Astra National Class car.

[Rallyper]

which one of your legends did he ridicule and made him run away ??

Why Mcrae and Sainz and duval and sordo and Ogier did not manag what Loeb did with the citroen ?? Loeb came into the team when Mcrae was 34.... Loeb won titles until 38...

dogs of nothingness roaming the garbage cans have nothing on the greatest ever...

Let go of your sweettalk of legends thar where..

Lets help each other try to talk about young talents as someone mentioned above.

[PLuto]

Yes of course I know what he did in Liepaja. And the week before he became Swedish RallySprint Champion in 2WD in an old Astra National Class car.

Emil was doing great job in Liepaja, same like other northern drivers like Rokland, Sirmacis or Adielsson. It was really nice fight. But this was on snow and big studs. We will see how it will be on different surfaces - gravel and mainly tarmac.

[Rallyper]

I guess tarmac was main surfacein Germany when he became Adam Cup champion.

[PLuto]

I guess tarmac was main surfacein Germany when he became Adam Cup champion.

For sure. But level of competition in JERC is quite higher than in Adam Cup...

[sollitt]

The difference between Loeb and the afformentioned sick dogs is that Loeb was man enough to make full use of the support he was getting ...This is correct.


Winner doesn't necessary mean best driver. This is not.


What NOT does not explain or acknowledge is how Loeb transitioned from talented young driver (of which there are very many) to be 'man enough to make full use of the support'. And this is exactly what I was explaining in an earlier post.

Some of you have misconstrued comments regarding Loeb's early career, which were not about his Citroen days (WRC & S1600) but about his privateer pre Citroen career, which was not at all spectacular.

Loeb though stood out among his compatriots at a time when his wealthy and influential ASR, in collaboration with the government owned manufacturer, were looking to atone for there having been no French champion for 10 years and only one in the history of the sport. This despite this manufacturer having invested larger than any other.
From the minute Loeb was adopted by Frequelin, his career was set. From that moment on he was able to drive the car to the best of his ability without concern for the costs or fear of the consequence of failure.

It is not difficult to understand the advantages, in learning and confidence building, that support provides over other competitors who are required to consider budget limitations, amongst other expectations and which will undoubtedly influence the way they drive the rally car.

Fast forward to Ogier's beginnings. In a period in which it is variously rumoured that only a handful of drivers (perhaps 2 or 3) are paid, or have any tenure of contract, and in which everybody pays personally or by limited sponsorship arrangements, it is equally not difficult to understand the advantages a few enjoy today.

[N.O.T]

you still did not answer who had a better early career than Loeb...

[satukata]

Young Finnish talents first time driving 4X cars tomorrow. Finland rally championship in Mikkeli
Teemu Suninen Skoda s2000(toni gardemaisters car)
Henri Haapamäki Subaru Impreza WRX Sti
Fastest driver expected Juha Salo and new 208 T16 first time in rally

SS1 LIVE lint. Start time 20.2.2015 17.00 CET https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxAimEdIZrM

[Rallyper]

For sure. But level of competition in JERC is quite higher than in Adam Cup...

I was pointing to the possibiltiy of Emil having done some tarmac rallying before (Adam cup). Not to talk about his gravel experience, which is very good. (Doing Volvo original cup in Sweden)

Even without competition, if that´s the case, you still earn a lot of experience.

[jparker]

In the French WRC assault, there was one, and only one driver. Loeb. No one else. Period.
While Sainz and Sordo will never admit that, it's so obvious that only mentally impaired person will ignore it.

[vino_93]

Yes that's really interesting for Bergkvist to learn tarmac in Germany, and for sure a great advantage compare to other young nordic guys. He can be competitive this year in JERC, and start his international career.


By the way, talking about Cup, do we know who plans to start in ?

In France, what I found :
208 Cup : Jérémy Toedtli (SWI), Xavier Baze (FRA), Bruno Riberi (MCO), William Wagner (BEL), Patrick Magnou (FRA), Emmanuel Gascou (FRA), Jean-Paul Monnin (FRA), Jérôme Chavanne (FRA), Kevin Bochatay (FRA), Jean-Baptiste Franceschi (FRA), Jordan Berfa (FRA), Johan Notargiacomo (FRA), Olivier Ramiandrisoa (MAD)
CRT : Damien Defert (FRA), Axel Garcia (FRA), Yohann Rossel (FRA), Denis Millet (FRA), Michel Closmenil (FRA), Thibault Durbec (FRA), Vincent Dubert (FRA), Laurent Laskowski (FRA)
CRTJ : Loïc Astier (FRA), Romain di Fante (FRA), Laurent Pellier (FRA), Jérémy Jamet (FRA), Loïc Matteï (FRA), Trystan Lucas (FRA), Samuel Taveneau (FRA), Anthony Fotia (FRA), Maxime Goetz (FRA)
Adam Cup : Romain Fostier (FRA), Xavier Crochon (FRA), Quentin Ribaud (FRA), Florian Bernardi (FRA), Antoine Massé (FRA), Theo Chalal (FRA), Nicolas Rouillard (FRA)


Some names in Germany ? (Toyota, Opel) Adam Cup is interesting with its prize, so I suppose still drivers from nordic countries ?

[N.O.T]

In the French WRC assault, there was one, and only one driver. Loeb. No one else. Period.
While Sainz and Sordo will never admit that, it's so obvious that only mentally impaired person will ignore it.

Loeb came when in the team Mcrae and Sainz were in... he came as an outsider and ridiculed those two like they were amateur village club boys.

It is normal a team to focus on one driver.. Mitsubishi only had makinen, Subaru only had Burns and then Solberg, Peugeot only had Gronholm and the list goes on... it is normal and it is how business works, you always focus on your strong assets.

As i said Loeb was the only one who managed to take full advantage of the support that is why he is the best motorsport driver of all times... now you might feel sad because probably he run over your favourite boy like a Bus a stray city cat... but it is also the truth.

[Hartusvuori]

Some names in Germany ? (Toyota, Opel) Adam Cup is interesting with its prize, so I suppose still drivers from nordic countries ?

Last year's Finnish R2 champion Samuli Vuorisalo will drive Opel Adam Cup in Germany. He is definitely there to learn tarmac which he hasn't competed on yet, but of course he has his eye on the prize too. Laura Suvanto from Finland will take part too. She's good enough driver, will be interesting to watch. Emil Lindholm's name has come up too and I think Bergkvist will take part in the cup again this year, but not sure.

[satukata]

http://www.lansi-savo.fi/vaakunaralli

[vino_93]

Young brith Garry Pearson, with irish codriver Niall Burns, will do 208 Cup in France. He finished 2nd in Scottish Rally last year, let's see what he can do in France.

[AL14]

After Ogier's win in Mexico yesterday I think this thread should be digged up with some questions:

Since at the moment no one seems capable to match Ogier's infernal pace, while we wait for Neuville and Mikkelsen to be at the top of their learning curve, let's keep talking about some young guy on the rise.
Camilli, Lefebvre, Suninen, Abbring himself (even if he is already driving a WRC) and many other. You think they will be capable to dethrone le roi in the future or they're going to be just good drivers?
I know, it's a kind of a too general question but I think this thread should survive somehow ;)

[stefanvv]

Camilli & Abbring are close to Ogier's age perhaps. May be they don't classify young enough for this thread?!?

[AL14]

Their lack of experience in WRC can classify them. BTW even if they are a bit off topic I think a discussion about them could be interesting. Otherwise ignore them and share your point of view about others I didn't talk about.

[tommeke_B]

Time will tell... All drivers have a lot of talent, but now it's up to them. You need to get everything perfect to make it to the very top (I said very top, not top 8). And with everything, it's everything you can think of. Where some sub-top-drivers write down a mistake to luck, the top-drivers analyze everything, they must and will know all of it. There are so many important subjects in this sport, too many to name really... So of the drivers you named, who will be the best? Time will tell us, who is smartest, and who works the hardest, who has the best team surrounding him etc.

For me personally Lefebvre has some work to do if he wants to get more chances in WRC after this year... Abbring and Camilli are well on their way. And Suninen, I don't know enough about him to judge.

[vino_93]

For the moment, none of them seems to have the required capacity to be at the top.
Abbring : good driver for sure, but I don't see in him a future world star.
Camilli : fast for sure ... but he reminds Gilbert, he made too many mistakes. But he is faster than Gilbert, that's sure too. He has to be more calm to win.
Lefebvre : He is really impressive. Maybe the only able to reach the top level ... but since the end of last year, he seems a bit in trouble. He lost something ... but as he will drive WRC this year (and probably next year), he has time to learn.
Suninen : we don't him a lot ... for sure he is fast, as he proved last year in Finland. Now he needs to get out of Finland, and show us what he can do. But his problem is that he doesn't tarmac ...

Talking about young guys, there was the first of German champ.
Fabian Kreim, young Skoda Germany driver, won easily the race. great job by Marijan Griebel (Opel) who finished 4th.
There was the German Opel Cup, which is one the best one-make cup in the world (maybe the best this year). That was an easy win for Julius Tannert (2nd year). Second is dan' Jacob Mabsen (2nd year too). Young finish Vuorisalo is 3rd, and first newcomer. Last year he finished 2nd in Fiesta Cup Finland, beaten by Suninen.
Yannick Neuville, brother of Thierry, had some problems, but he won the last stages, and showed a great speed.

[stefanvv]

Well I don't have much impressions from young drivers, probably i have mostly for Abbring, he has the necessary skills and he has the motivation. What else do we need? Time and seat in WRC car for season or two to see where he progresses. If VW has seen enough potential in him, may be he has what is necessary.
Camilli? May be we can think a bit for him as the new Loeb or Ogier. He is not that young, but suddenly appears at some rally scene and handles the competition pretty well. I didn't see much of driving from him unfortunately to say how good he is.

[tommeke_B]

There was the German Opel Cup, which is one the best one-make cup in the world (maybe the best this year). That was an easy win for Julius Tannert (2nd year). Second is dan' Jacob Mabsen (2nd year too). Young finish Vuorisalo is 3rd, and first newcomer. Last year he finished 2nd in Fiesta Cup Finland, beaten by Suninen.
Yannick Neuville, brother of Thierry, had some problems, but he won the last stages, and showed a great speed.
No it's not one of the best one-make cups... All respect for Yannick Neuville, but if he's so close to the top drivers within that trophy, for me it means nobody is extremely fast...

[Ounin]

After Ogier's win in Mexico yesterday I think this thread should be digged up with some questions:

Since at the moment no one seems capable to match Ogier's infernal pace, while we wait for Neuville and Mikkelsen to be at the top of their learning curve, let's keep talking about some young guy on the rise.
Camilli, Lefebvre, Suninen, Abbring himself (even if he is already driving a WRC) and many other. You think they will be capable to dethrone le roi in the future or they're going to be just good drivers?
I know, it's a kind of a too general question but I think this thread should survive somehow ;)

I'm just online didn't have proper time to read them all but great move AL14 to give this thread a refresh we need this very much !

[AL14]

I'm just online didn't have proper time to read them all but great move AL14 to give this thread a refresh we need this very much !

Thanks mate. Where is the guy who share the wine picture everytime? This could be an occasion for one of his toast :)

[Rallyper]

As a swede and while Adam Cup is mentioned we have Emil Bergkvist, who must be one of the hottest young swedes in ages. His learning curve just started. If money is present and good advisers as well, he´d be a young talent to be watched.

There are so many out there, but they can only be judged fair if they drive as many international rallies as possible.

[Ounin]

Yeah that's the key in this one; mileage.
If you are noticed in your home country, next thing is the Scandinavians ( gravel/snow ) need tarmac mileage and the others ( tarmac ) need gravel mileage, and quickly I no time to loose. (So in this context it's good that we see Finns in Opel Cup in Germany.) If you still noticed -read: manufactures get interested- get the budget and drive WRC junior or WRC 3, get use to all the different aspect of every WRC rally. When manufacuter knocks on your door you need at least 2 YEARS to make mileage in R5 or WRC junior team car...!!! Look at all stats of f.e. The Ogier-thing: you need time to make mistakes, to adapt the notes, find momentum. So at this point there is hardly no talent ready to deliver. We say it takes so long till Toyota enters the WRC but, to find talents, they are too late.
Judging young guys now is impossible if they haven't done WRC enough. Only exeption is Lefebvre they are making mileage now, with experienced Prévot, they are far ahead of the rest, but still beginners. other one is Abbring f.i. he did JWRC at same year as Neuville did...

[stefanvv]

Thanks mate. Where is the guy who share the wine picture everytime? This could be an occasion for one of his toast :)

he is currently planting the vines, after enough years will get a well aged wine

[Ounin]

Look how long it takes before a diamant is perfectly cut ... ;)
and they should not only be French ones...

[skarderud]

Ole Christian veiby, Steve Røkland and Marius Aasen, is probably the next guys from norway.
Veiby was 3.rd in monte in wrc3, has the same managment as lappi and Mikkelsen, and enough money in the system to bring him to his potential.

[Zeakiwi]

First win for the MC2.
http://tinyurl.com/qx3ej7h (Kelsey)
http://youtu.be/poyfCb60uWk

[Rallyper]

Ole Christian veiby, Steve Røkland and Marius Aasen, is probably the next guys from norway.
Veiby was 3.rd in monte in wrc3, has the same managment as lappi and Mikkelsen, and enough money in the system to bring him to his potential.

Even in these times when oilprices is low? ;)

[Ounin]

If you have talent you need one thing, loads of money, doesn't matter where it comes from. Hope Veiby is not drawing all the available sponsorship away from Røkland and Aasen ...

[skarderud]

Veiby's father own betong øst, the biggest concrete Company i South/East of norway. I think money is not an issue.
He sponsor Steve too, atleast before. But noone of the other too has him as main sponsor.
Aasen doing fiesta jrwrc (or what its called), Røkland is in jr erc. Exiting to follow them this season!

[stefanvv]

what happened to Kristiansen? Is he doing well?

[AL14]

If you have talent you need one thing, loads of money, doesn't matter where it comes from. Hope Veiby is not drawing all the available sponsorship away from Røkland and Aasen ...

I think you need help before than money. Money helps a lot but if you don't have them you should be helped by your federation. FFSA is doing a good job. As far as I know Loeb and Ogier weren't that rich but they become champions. I love rally, a lot, but I hate this money staff, it's a shame that you should have a rich dad to have a career. It's difficult to understand for someone new to the sport. It doesn't happen in other sports. Ok, they're not expensive like rally but it's a shame a lot of talents are bricklayers while Bertelli is in the world championship and he doesn't know the difference between a trench and a road.
Other federations should follow the example of FFSA imo. Even if they have not the same money, it's also a matter of culture.

[vino_93]

I don't want to be negativ, but I'm not impressed at all by Aasen. We know he'll not be a future star. It will be his 3rd year in JWRC, and he shows nothing the first two.
Rokland let's see. For sure, he is fast on snow. JERC is a good competition, we'll quickly see what he can do on gravel and tarmac.
Veiby ... the first thing I've seen don't make me think he'll be a future top driver too. But he doesn't have a lot of experience, so let's see. Maybe on gravel he can do better things ...

[Ounin]

I think you need help before than money. Money helps a lot but if you don't have them you should be helped by your federation. FFSA is doing a good job. As far as I know Loeb and Ogier weren't that rich but they become champions. I love rally, a lot, but I hate this money staff, it's a shame that you should have a rich dad to have a career. It's difficult to understand for someone new to the sport. It doesn't happen in other sports. Ok, they're not expensive like rally but it's a shame a lot of talents are bricklayers while Bertelli is in the world championship and he doesn't know the difference between a trench and a road.
Other federations should follow the example of FFSA imo. Even if they have not the same money, it's also a matter of culture.

No it's is not necessary to have a rich dad at all, like I said it's really not important where money comes from. Support from a federation helps a lot, like FFSA but also in Netherlans (KNAF Talent first) and the Belgium RACB; they pushed Neuville ahead, now they are helping Gino Büx in JERC. Thing is there comes a point a federation's budget is by far not enough for a contract further up, then it is serious business. Big advantage of this time is that there is demand for talents, there are quite some manufacturers who would like to have a guy capable of beating the Ogier-VW-thing... The gap between mileage and manufactures attention needs to be filled in by sponsor who is enthusiastic and supportive for a young guy.

[PLuto]

I don't want to be negativ, but I'm not impressed at all by Aasen. We know he'll not be a future star. It will be his 3rd year in JWRC, and he shows nothing the first two.

Aasen was not doing JWRC last year, when JWRC switched to Citroens, he stayed in DMack Fiesta Trophy. I think it will not help him so much in his career to continue in this series...

[PLuto]

what happened to Kristiansen? Is he doing well?

Petter's priority this year is norwegian championship, where he continues with Impreza Sti and he is fast there. As there are termine colisions with JERC, he decided not to start in JERC this year. And his Fabia R2 is sold now. But I hope we will see him also on some ERC rounds this year ;)

[skarderud]

Petter's priority this year is norwegian championship, where he continues with Impreza Sti and he is fast there. As there are termine colisions with JERC, he decided not to start in JERC this year. And his Fabia R2 is sold now. But I hope we will see him also on some ERC rounds this year ;)
He's driving fast in his impreza in norwegian championships, is second placed after Brynhildsen in total standings after winter.
He will be back in erc some time, i'm quite shure they waiting for an upgrade in car before they be back. Skoda R5?...

[PLuto]

He's driving fast in his impreza in norwegian championships, is second placed after Brynhildsen in total standings after winter.
He will be back in erc some time, i'm quite shure they waiting for an upgrade in car before they be back. Skoda R5?...

I hope he will be back at least for one race this year ;)

[skarderud]

I hope he will be back at least for one race this year ;)
He sold his fabia R2 to Portugal some weeks ago, watch for it;)
Yeah, hope so too!

[tommeke_B]

Great pace from Armstrong, Bergkvist and Griebel in Ireland. Still don't understand why Skoda Deutschland picked Kreim in stead of Griebel...

Tomorrow is Rallye Terre des Causses, first event of the 208 Cup. Live results, itinerary and entry list: http://www.ffsa.org/res_rallye.php?id=2801&catCourse=ral 29 Peugeot 208 R2's are entered! Among "top cars" we can find Lefebvre with DS3 R5 as well.

Lefebvre is going to drive Rallye de Wallonie by the way, with DS3 R5 of J-Motorsport. His codriver will be Pieter Tsjoen! Tsjoen is 9 times Belgian champion, has a lot of experience and is known for a very clean and efficient style. It could be interesting to see how Lefebvre is doing against Belgian drivers such as Loix, Princen, Cherain and Casier. :)

[Rallyper]

Emil Bergkvist one young guy to keep in mind for the future.

[Ounin]

Emil Bergkvist one young guy to keep in mind for the future.

Yes indeed, he already did earlier this season, but now he delivered on tarmac. I have also added Jon Armstong and Marijan Griebel (more and more) to my list of future big ones. Speaking of Circuit of Ireland: Charles Martin did a solid job as well.

[liposh]

Does anybody know whether Bergkvist has any experience with tarmac? I found he drove cart-cross for 10 years but he quit because of injuries. What kind of cart-cross was it? ...Because you need some experience and really big balls to win CoI
-Marijan Griebel has one disadvantage...he is 5 years older than all those Bergkvists, Armstrongs, Ingrams and Gryazins :-)
-And finally Armstrong has one huge disadvantage: He has really, but really terrible haircut. I can´t stand it :-D

[giù tutto!]

Few rallies on tarmac. He seems to be good to adapt new things, very good feature for a rally driver.

http://www.ewrc-results.com/profile.php?p=31767&t=Emil-Bergkvist

Very impressive performance, again.

[sindroms]

Kalle Rovanpera switches to S2000 in 2016. He has received permition from Latvian ASN, first events - rallysprint "Aluksne" (16.01.), rallysprint "Sarma" (23.,24.01.)

[liposh]

In my opinion one of the greatest news this year. I don´t really care about future of all these Meekes and Ostbergs, but future of Kalle is important.

[Rallyper]

The currently most fitting person to this topic must be Emil Bergkvist. Let´s see what the future brings on for him.

[christy but]

keith Cronin from Ireland is a serious driver just needs a break..

[Nornbugger]

keith Cronin from Ireland is a serious driver just needs a break..

I agree, what age is he now, seems a long time since he appeared on the scene?

[nafpaktos]

Nikolay Gryazin in rally du vallais has shown GREAT potential,with minor rallying experience and with zero experience in 4wd car.If you look his age then everybody will understand why i say this.He is-was circuit driver,this of course helped him in the terrain of switzerland but i believe that he has the speed and in the future we will see from him great performances also on gravel.

[Mirek]

I don't think that being a circuit drivers helps You so much in Valais ;) There is everything in Valais, asphalt, gravel, fast and wide roads, narrow and bumpy roads, clean and very dirty, wet and dry etc. I think that it's quite an ultimate challenge where You find a bit of everything.

[EstWRC]

Karl Martin Volver

[PLuto]

Nikolay Gryazin in rally du vallais has shown GREAT potential,with minor rallying experience and with zero experience in 4wd car.If you look his age then everybody will understand why i say this.He is-was circuit driver,this of course helped him in the terrain of switzerland but i believe that he has the speed and in the future we will see from him great performances also on gravel.

He was doing whole season in rally this year. And also lot of testings, so he was in rally car many times this year. Of course, this was his first start with 4WD car.

[liposh]

Anyway Pluto, Nikolay Gryazin is only 18 yo. (and he was 17 during whole this year season) I think his performance there was great (And btw. few weeks ago he attended Mitjet 2L series at Sochi autodrom and he was awesome. In first race he was 3rd and in second race he won) I am optimistic. ;)

[Andre Oliveira]

Diogo Gago have potential but is portuguese :(

[irish_tiger]

I agree, what age is he now, seems a long time since he appeared on the scene?

http://www.ewrc-results.com/final.php?e=21415&t=Cork-20-International-Rally-2015

[Rallyper]

I must say to all of you before mentioning your own favvo driver only 13 yrs old winning on home soil everything:

Emil Bergkvist must be considered the most talented this year. He showed he´s hard stuff. Mentally also. And he should be in a WRC2 car immediatly!!
After mentioning his name. Be my guest and tell everyone your favourite.

[Simmi]

I must say to all of you before mentioning your own favvo driver only 13 yrs old winning on home soil everything:

Emil Bergkvist must be considered the most talented this year. He showed he´s hard stuff. Mentally also. And he should be in a WRC2 car immediatly!!
After mentioning his name. Be my guest and tell everyone your favourite.

For Bergkvist I'd either like to see him in an R5 doing ERC or I'd like to see him in WRC doing either JWRC or Dmack Trophy.

[tommeke_B]

What Bergkvist showed this year is quite similar to what Lefebvre showed last year (3 wins and early title in JERC). Lefebvre did a bit more by dominating JWRC as well... Bergkvist did great things this year, but it's not a guarantee to (short term) success in bigger classes, as we see with Lefebvre.

[skarderud]

Its several potential young guns in Norway, but just a few that have the needed backing.
Ole Christian veiby is of course one of them, Marius Aasen also.
Steve Røkland is real fast to, hopefully the fundings is enough to brake it!

[Nornbugger]

http://www.ewrc-results.com/final.php?e=21415&t=Cork-20-International-Rally-2015

My maths makes him too old to belong on this thread :-/

[liposh]

Nornbugger: Generally good point. Ok, let´s make some border. Age 26 and below? (like JWRC rules)

[French_Paulo]

Suninen !
9th in WRC-2 with only 5 rallies (so better result than Camilli...). He is very good with the old Fabia S2000.

[eestlane]

Kruuda.
Only guy who got close to the Skodas on gravel.

[Simmi]

Certainly in WRC2 the guy I am probably most intrigued to see next year is Suninen and how he develops. Hopefully Kruuda pulls together the funds for a programme.

[EstWRC]

Kruuda confirmed last week that he will do 7 events, starting in sweden. The car hasnt been decided yet.