McLaren MP4-30 [Archive] - Motorsport Forums

Tazio

15th December 2014, 16:45

Probably a little early, but since their is so much speculation about the new McLaren challenger, and the Honda power unit(s) I thought I would go ahead and start one.
Here is one rendering (photoshop) I saw on-line that I think would be interesting :crazy:.
However I will be surprised if McLaren doesn't incorporate some white into the package, although probably not too much since Williams is basically white. :cool:

https://scontent-b-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/l/t1.0-9/10801823_958248144189731_1236373244524367274_n.jpg ?oh=b3df483fb8067d32dc28f69a460e4837&oe=55015178

henners88

15th December 2014, 16:55

Spyker!

Tazio

15th December 2014, 17:26

Yeah I guess sort of, but Spyker was orange, and this is supposed to be metallic copper.

Maverick248

15th December 2014, 20:20

Nice color but it should be better if the hood was in another color (black?).

15th December 2014, 20:40

Maybe Santander will go back to McLaren with Alonso joining and they can run a white and red livery like the olden days McLaren Hondas?

kfzmeister

16th December 2014, 07:06

Maybe Santander will go back to McLaren with Alonso joining and they can run a white and red livery like the olden days McLaren Hondas?

Could that be the big sponsor that Dennis is supposed to land? Red and white livery would be a nice touch. Retro, like the way Lotus and Williams have gone

Maverick248

16th December 2014, 09:43

Some rumors said that this sponsor was Movistar, any news about that?

Storm

7th January 2015, 09:24

Can't wait to see the new livery. McLaren livery has been dull for a while now - the West McLaren Mercedes colours were good - in 98/99, but its been a variation of the same ever since.

Some red/white or black would be nice. Even the Movistar/Telefonica if true, should add a dash of colour to this livery.

Robinho

7th January 2015, 10:20

Movistar/telefonica would be a horrible mess like the old renaults, dark blue, yellow, with red Honda badges, nah, don't want it

ATF

9th January 2015, 15:23

I quite liked the blue and yellow Renaults of 2005/06. :-s

Has Alonso got any personal sponsors he's bringing to the team, like Santander?

Tazio

10th January 2015, 03:51

I quite liked the blue and yellow Renaults of 2005/06. :-s

I also thought that that was a good looking livery! :)

rjbetty

10th January 2015, 07:51

I quite liked the blue and yellow Renaults of 2005/06. :-s

Has Alonso got any personal sponsors he's bringing to the team, like Santander?

I think he means the 2007 mess :p

Well the new engine clarifications are rather unfair on Honda imo. Doesn't seem right they will only get 26 engine tokens after this year as everyone else. Who would want to join F1 now? I am wondering if that's the whole point, and if Bernie really is trying to destroy F1 to remake a new series in which he gets more money and control, or something like that... :(

Malbec

13th January 2015, 00:01

Doesn't seem right they will only get 26 engine tokens after this year as everyone else.

Is this confirmed? I thought the FIA hadn't addressed this issue yet.

AndyL

13th January 2015, 11:43

Is this confirmed? I thought the FIA hadn't addressed this issue yet.

It's 25 according to the version of the tech regs I have, but yes the engine points allowances for all the years 2015-2020 were written into the rules last year.

Tazio

29th January 2015, 16:26

Here are about 47 pic's of the MP4-30. I'm actually a little underwhelmed by the livery, but it still is a gosh darn good looking rig. I hope it is fast!

http://www.f1talks.pl/2015/01/29/prezentacja-mclarena-mp4-30/

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/10421978_859293044129887_3600668700939437239_n.jpg ?oh=c3eb2861d3e5726e1c1949fd3766abcd&oe=55658B24&__gda__=1428295829_686faf2b257240542d81d6ebaee0ad6 2

Mark

29th January 2015, 16:38

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoOT0NiydEA&

A big disappointment.

Tazio

29th January 2015, 17:19

Let the Alonso, Button smack-down begin! :p:

COD

29th January 2015, 17:23

That must an interim livery. Don't think Honda likes the silver that is associated to Merc.

There is still no title sponsor. Some rumours suggest that Dennis is asking too much money for it

AndyL

29th January 2015, 17:43

The back end is very slim, a huge change compared to last year. That's the influence of Prodromou I guess.

There is a very large removeable cover on top of the nose. Have they hired a front suspension mechanic who has enormous banana-bunch hands?

No front brake ducts are shown on the pictures. Either they're hiding something clever or someone in the carbon fibre workshop is getting a slap for not finishing them in time :)

Doc Austin

29th January 2015, 18:43

Not as good looking as I have come to expect from McLaren, but it's still better than last year's car.

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/mclaren-honda-launches-2015-f1-challenger

truefan72

29th January 2015, 18:48

Yeah, I'm not a fan of the red in the livery. looks a bit out of place imo.
Also, the mclaren and force india are going to be hard to tell apart.

anfield5

29th January 2015, 20:44

Could that be the big sponsor that Dennis is supposed to land? Red and white livery would be a nice touch. Retro, like the way Lotus and Williams have gone

Lotus haven't gone retro. Lotus does not exist as a racing team. THe black thing isn't even called Lotus by the people who work there. They call it the Enstone team. The Lotus badges on the thing are due to a sponsorship agreement with Proton and a re a sick marketing ploy to attract gullible supporters, who somehow think that the team is Lotus. If the Enstone team went retro the car would be red and blue like the Toleman that it was. [ok rant over....}

anfield5

29th January 2015, 20:47

I am VERY surprised it is silver (mercedes clothes). I wouldn't be too surprised if the car looks different than this when it races eg white and red instead. Currently it just looks like last years clothes on next years horse.

Rollo

30th January 2015, 00:21

Dear McLaren,
I am bitterly disappointed with your decision to still sport a silver arrows look. Given that your ex-favourite son Hamilton won the World Drivers' Championship last year, why now celebrate a livery from his previous title in 2007?
This was a chance to bite your thumb at both Hamilton and Mercedes for leaving you and painting the town a different colour. I would have though that just like the past the future's bright the future's orange but apparently not.

Two thumbs down; Major Fail.

Love Rollo.
PS: I definitely did not kiss the editor of the Radio Times.

steveaki13

30th January 2015, 09:10

Pretty disappointing livery if thats the final one. Last seasons was dull, but given the blaze of glory about Honda returing you would think they would try harder.

kfzmeister

31st January 2015, 22:07

I'm not convinced that it is the final paintjob. I've read reports that suggest that it is simply an interim color. Their trucks are still plain colored and may suggest that something is still coming.
I would definitely welcome something different than the current.
I guess they are running all black for testing still??

Doc Austin

31st January 2015, 23:05

Now it is being reported that this might not be the final livery.......

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/mclaren-could-yet-opt-for-new-livery-by-australia/?v=2&s=1

Apparently negotiations with Santander are still ongoing, so it's possible we could see them, and their colors, on the McLaren by the time we get to Melbourne.

kfzmeister

1st February 2015, 17:55

McLaren just tweeted that "Ron said our livery will change" accompanied with an orange racecar.

Edit: Ron said there had been discussions about orange but florescent red had "much more heritage than any other" for the team

Doc Austin

1st February 2015, 18:50

Looking over the Motorsports.com coverage of testing, all the new cars look terrific. Getting the nose back down on the deck looks a whole lot better to me.

McLaren usually has one of the nicest looking cars on the grid, but this year it doesn't really stand out from the others. So far I like the Torro Rosso best, though it is hard to tell what the Red Bull looks like because they have a camouflage scheme on it. They always seem to have a good looking car.

I know it's a shallow thing to like or dislike cars based on their appearance, but F1 cars are supposed to be sexy, and I think the new noses are a big step in that direction.

Mia 01

2nd February 2015, 08:17

Hope they can run a few laps today, electrical problems on day one they say. Heating problems to is my say, tight packed chassi or the Engine is very small. Will be interesting today, how many laps will they do? My guess, 22.

kfzmeister

2nd February 2015, 18:47

Doc Austin

2nd February 2015, 19:53

Now that I have had a chance to see most of the cars, I was a bit too quick to say the McLaren livery was ok. seeing a short clip of it run, the orange stripe makes the nose look more like a sexual object that anything I have ever seen. The orange mirrors look like, well........ you know. The scheme is hideously unbalanced with little or no orange anywhere but the nose. It's like they went out of their way to accentuate the worst looking part of the car. Change it, please.

So far the biggest surprise of test has been the Ferrari. It had to be better because it could not get much worse, but to jump to the top of the sheets right out of the box has got to be better than even they expected. Another surprise is that they didn't give up any reliability to get there. Vettel appears to have made an exceptionally good move. I never thought I would be cheering a Ferrari driven by a German, but things sure seemed to have changed!

Mercedes' mileage was not really a surprise, but they are probably hiding their true speed. If they truly did add a 50hp advantage to last year's power system, they should have been blowing everyone off the track. I'm guessing they ran full tanks most of the time.

All of the new cars look so much better than before. F1 has got to be asking themselves why they never banned the high noses back when they first arrived. Every car since the 92 Williams has looked horrible. I have pretty much had to hold my every time I have watched an F1 race for the last 20 years, so I am really looking forward to this season and finally getting to see some good looking cars again.

Finances
With Force India missing the test, this just underlines F1's financial crisis. Caterham and Marussia were borderline broke from the first day, but with Force India perhaps being in worse shape than we thought, we truly are on the cusp of having an embarrassingly weak grid. Certainly it is strong at the front, but what happens when another team folds and we are down to 16 cars, or God forbid, even less?

The answer is not 1000 hp engines or even naked grid girls. It's not even up to the teams to raise the money themselves anymore. It just costs too damm much.

driveace

2nd February 2015, 20:52

Thought Santander was Alonso,s sponsor ,so do we expect the Mc to be red ?

Doc Austin

2nd February 2015, 20:58

Thought Santander was Alonso,s sponsor ,so do we expect the Mc to be red ?

I read a link yesterday on MS.com that says negotiations are "ongoing." Apparently the president of Santander was a big Alonso fan, but he passed away. It might not be so easy with his replacement.

driveace

2nd February 2015, 21:05

I read a link yesterday on MS.com that says negotiations are "ongoing." Apparently the president of Santander was a big Alonso fan, but he passed away. It might not be so easy with his replacement.

And the Ferrari on test in Spain is still carrying Santander sponsorship in it

anfield5

2nd February 2015, 23:07

still expect the Macca to be red and white in Melbourne (as opposed to Austria :) (joke carried over from another thread - sorry)). I don't see why they would want to race in Mercedes colours.

CNR

3rd February 2015, 03:55

http://www.formula1.com/news/interviews/2015/2/16797.html
"Q: Whose brainchild was the camouflage livery?
CH: It actually came out of a helmet [design] that Sebastian (Vettel) ran last year in camouflage - it was quite fun and we thought it interesting to extend this concept to the entire car. [Red Bull boss] Dietrich (Mateschitz) liked it when he saw it - it’s pretty much Red Bull: we are not afraid to do things differently. It’s quite striking - and impossible to get details and photographs of the car at this time of the year when (everybody tries to be as secretive as possible).
"

Rollo

4th February 2015, 07:26

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/117544
"We have had the same [discussions about livery] inside the team: all of these people were saying, why don't we make it orange - because that was the old colour of McLaren?
Well, I say, 'you just said it - it was the old colour of McLaren. Why the hell do we want to go backwards?
So what do you do? Do you create an aesthetically pleasing design? But for what purpose?
This is the livery of McLaren. It has always been a combination of these colours - and it will only change for commercial reasons."
- Ron Dennis as quoted by Autosport, 1st Feb 2015.

Yes Ron - it was the old colour of McLaren. Silver is the colour of Mercedes.

That's why people want to change colour scheme, for that purpose. It is a commercial reason - you're more likely to attract new sponsors if you establish your own brand identity; that's why your 12C comes in orange and why your 675 comes in orange.

What colour is Ferrari? Oh I don't know? Yellow for Shell? No it bloody isn't. What colour is Lotus and why? Brand identity.

Ron, you've just won the Grand Poobah of Rollotovia's Academy Award for Nonsense and Eejitaciousness. We're even painting it orange just for you.

kfzmeister

5th February 2015, 03:45

Here a short clip from Testing day 3. The sound is a little better now and may be what it will sound like for the season. They did finally get some running, with ALO managing 32 laps.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_S2uJwpbn4

kfzmeister

7th February 2015, 06:47

AndyL

8th February 2015, 13:10

Apparently the Honda has a split turbo design like the Merc. Some cool stuff about the cooling layout as well. Not sure how much that differs from the others...
http://en.f1i.com/magazine/2361-cool-solution-mclaren-honda.html

It seems to be a theme this year to move cooling elements high in the chassis. Williams have too, and at least one other team that I can't remember. I guess the aerodynamic benefit of reducing the sidepods outweighs the higher centre of gravity.

anfield5

9th February 2015, 04:50

Tazio

3rd May 2015, 04:55

Looking forward to this lads.

McLaren Honda will run a revised livery from next weekend’s Spanish GP, sources close to the team have indicated.
It’s understood that the new version could be described as ‘shades of grey,’ with no chrome or silver."'bout bloody time.
Would it be asking too much of you to score a couple points while you're at it? :andrea:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Gs9UwMvfhkI/VKU61BcSNcI/AAAAAAAATkw/N4x9SxQyUtU/s1600/Anglo%2BAmerican%2BEmpire.png
http://filthygentlemensclub.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/chuck.jpg

;)

kfzmeister

4th May 2015, 03:39

Looking forward to this lads.
'bout bloody time.
Would it be asking too much of you to score a couple points while you're at it? :andrea:

You know Zo will be up for performing well at home!
Let the new Era officially begin!!

journeyman racer

6th May 2015, 15:47

Don't mind the new paint.

http://www.speedcafe.com/2015/05/06/mclaren-takes-wraps-off-new-graphite-livery/

Tazio

6th May 2015, 16:38

:stareup: Thanks for posting that mate. With the additional red it is a definite improvement. I need to see it by the light of day to decide how much. First impression is same as yours, just "OK"

yodasarmpit

6th May 2015, 18:05

Now that's an improvement, nice livery.

Storm

6th May 2015, 22:39

Definite improvement, like most of us said that silver was just boring.

anfield5

6th May 2015, 23:16

Ah, there is nothing quite like the boring grey look of the 2014 Sauber. I wonder if they chose this because their performances in '15 are akin to Sauber's in '14.

Having said that it is slightly better than the Mercedes throw back paint seen so far this year

Hawkmoon

7th May 2015, 01:02

I thought Ol' Ron said they went with the previous colours because they were "McLaren's colours"? What are these then Ron? What happened to the line that they'll only change for commercial reasons? No new sponsors there.

It's a definite improvement but as the previous one was completely insipid it wouldn't have taken much to improve. Those numbers are impossible to read too, not that that's unique in modern F1.

Rollo

7th May 2015, 02:23

When Ron Denis and co bought McLaren in 1980/81 the 'Bruce" McLaren team ceased to exist - this was the Orange McLaren. In effect when Denis bought the team he started a new business with the same name, so in effect he has never been associated with the orange colour.

Yeah that's sort of true... except if you go to the McLaren Automotive website:

http://cars.mclaren.com/files/live/sites/mclaren/files/cars-mclaren-com-Main/McLAREN%20GT/HOME/McLarenGT_Bruno_Senna-09.jpg

http://cars.mclaren.com/home

McLaren sort of plasters their orange over everything.

Mekola

7th May 2015, 03:13

anfield5

7th May 2015, 04:05

It's a definite improvement but as the previous one was completely insipid it wouldn't have taken much to improve. Those numbers are impossible to read too, not that that's unique in modern F1.

What numbers? :)

CNR

8th May 2015, 09:34

a better image at http://www.crash.net/f1/news/218460/1/mclaren-unveils-updated-formula-1-car-livery.html
https://twitter.com/McLarenF1/status/595906798252630016/photo/1

COD

8th May 2015, 18:40

Not great, but big improvement on the previous

steveaki13

9th May 2015, 00:20

Not really that impressed to be honest. :mark:

N4D13

9th May 2015, 13:46

They might as well hire me for their new livery. It sure wasn't going to be any better, but at least that'd make for an awesome thing to put in my CV. :p

Tazio

9th May 2015, 14:12

Yep, having watched it through the practices I am impressed by how much it actually sucks. :(
Maybe it will look better in race trim. :idea:

AndyL

9th May 2015, 15:49

Apparently the new livery is 1kg lighter than the old one with the metal-flake paint.

airshifter

9th May 2015, 21:46

For a little while there it looked like they might squeak into final qually. That all went downhill fairly quick.

As for the new livery.... ehhh. Still doesn't do much for me.

Koz

10th May 2015, 15:53

Whoa that livery sucks!

anfield5

10th May 2015, 23:05

The bright red band over the nose is wierd. From the front the car's colour blends in with the track and all you can is a red blob hovering about a 2/3 of a metre above the ground.

truefan72

11th May 2015, 00:12

http://a1.espncdn.com/combiner/i?img=/photo/2015/0510/McLaren_518.jpg&h=402&scale=crop&w=1006&location=origin

How the mighty have fallen

Tazio

11th May 2015, 00:58

:stareup: That's interesting t'fan, and I'm not going to defend McLaren, but you do know that Jense finished one lap down. Stevens was three laps down, and Mehri four. :idea: ;)

truefan72

11th May 2015, 01:12

:stareup: That's interesting t'fan, and I'm not going to defend McLaren, but you do know that Jense finished one lap down. Stevens was three laps down, and Mehri four. :idea: ;)

lol I know, its just a symbolic picture of their current plight ;)

steveaki13

11th May 2015, 01:16

Its bad enough though.

Mclaren only lapped Manor twice :eek:

Tazio

11th May 2015, 01:26

Tear-off visor the likely cause of Fernando Alonso's brake failure

http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/12859579/tear-visor-likely-cause-fernando-alonso-brake-failure-spanish-grand-prix
A tear-off visor appears to be to blame for Fernando Alonso's brake failure at the Spanish Grand Prix, which saw him come close to running over his pit crew and resulted in his retirement from the race.Alonso did not have the set-up issues that Jense had, and was on course to score points with a two stop strategy, but then again he is an exceptional pilota.

N. Jones

11th May 2015, 02:26

Next year they will be a power.

Hawkmoon

11th May 2015, 06:13

Next year they will be a power.

Why? McLaren haven't been a "power" since the late '90's. There's absolutely nothing to suggest that Honda will develop a miraculous engine next year. They haven't produced a dominant engine since the late '80's and have bounced in and out of the sport since then. As a Ferrari fan I quite like seeing them struggle but even when I put that aside and try and look at it objectively I don't see how they are going to find 3 seconds a lap over and above what Mercedes, Ferrari and Williams will find over the winter. I think McLaren will be better but I doubt they'll be anything other than point scorers next year with the odd podium if they are lucky.

Tazio

11th May 2015, 07:04

Why? look at it objectively .Ok, Ferrari used 22 PU development tokens before the start of the season, the only engine supplier to use less was Renault who used 20. I'm not sure but I think Ferrari used the rest before this race. Honda still has the 9 that they were awarded as an average of what the other teams didn't use. I don't know how much they will improve but they have all of theirs, Ferrari and Mercedes have all but used theirs up, and who cares about Renault. So I suspect that Honda will make a relative gain to the rest of the field.
How much is hard to say.....mate. :dozey:

Hawkmoon

11th May 2015, 09:59

Ok, Ferrari used 22 PU development tokens before the start of the season, the only engine supplier to use less was Renault who used 20. I'm not sure but I think Ferrari used the rest before this race. Honda still has the 9 that they were awarded as an average of what the other teams didn't use. I don't know how much they will improve but they have all of theirs, Ferrari and Mercedes have all but used theirs up, and who cares about Renault. So I suspect that Honda will make a relative gain to the rest of the field.
How much is hard to say.....mate. :dozey:

It's not just the Honda that's the problem. From Autosport:

"Spanish GP: Jenson Button says McLaren F1 car was 'scary' to drive" (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/118903). Would dropping a Mercedes in the back fix this?

Since 2010 McLaren have finished 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 5th and 5th in the constructors championship. This year 5th would be a miracle. Add this to the fact that the team has no major sponsor and how anyone can think that McLaren will be a "power" in 2016 is beyond me.

(And yes, I'm loving seeing McLaren at the back, even if the cars don't look like McLarens. :D)

Tazio

11th May 2015, 13:06

how anyone can think that McLaren will be a "power" in 2016 is beyond me.

Yes it is beyond you, because you simply can't be objective. You left out a rather important line from that article:

Button was not sure whether the handling dramas were a set-up problem or mechanical issueA problem Fred wasn't having. I don't know where
McLaren will be next season, I'm not as clairvoyant as you, but as I said I believe they will continue to close the deficit this season. My point is; McLaren failing is not an objective argument by you, that is quite obvious. It is simply your desire.

Why? McLaren haven't been a "power" since the late '90's.
Then again your definition of a power and N Jones', as well as mine may be different, because I'm pretty sure you can't challenge for WCC championships, and win a WDC championship without being a powerful team. jmho

Tazio

11th May 2015, 16:39

McLaren did bring a completely new rear suspension to this race. I think his rear snapping problem was just a power delivery problem brought on by increasing the power output but not adjusting other critical control elements. Poor engine mapping and power delivery that results from their lack of mileage in winter testing when decent power maps and settings would have been tested/experimented with and developed during the first races. Because of this it is quite understandable that Jenson's side of the garage may have gotten it horribly wrong. I have not read this anywhere, it is just a suspicion of mine. I think the tests this week will be of great value to them.Time will tell.

Tazio

11th May 2015, 17:35

Interesting that with all his problems Jense had the 6th fastest sector 3 time in the race.
http://www.fia.com/events/formula-1-world-championship/season-2015/race-classification-6
This could bode well for Monaco as that is the very twisty section of The Circuit de Catalunya

N. Jones

12th May 2015, 05:59

It's not just the Honda that's the problem. From Autosport:

Add this to the fact that the team has no major sponsor and how anyone can think that McLaren will be a "power" in 2016 is beyond me.

(And yes, I'm loving seeing McLaren at the back, even if the cars don't look like McLarens. :D)

Honda in 2008 was a disaster. I wonder how their car did in 2009..........

Mia 01

14th May 2015, 14:19

Is it five years now, since they last won a race? And now, a Point in sight?

Tazio

14th May 2015, 15:07

2 seasons and 5 races. :rolleyes:

Mia 01

14th May 2015, 15:21

OK, guess you are counting Tazzi.

jens

14th May 2015, 16:01

Why? McLaren haven't been a "power" since the late '90's. There's absolutely nothing to suggest that Honda will develop a miraculous engine next year. They haven't produced a dominant engine since the late '80's and have bounced in and out of the sport since then. As a Ferrari fan I quite like seeing them struggle but even when I put that aside and try and look at it objectively I don't see how they are going to find 3 seconds a lap over and above what Mercedes, Ferrari and Williams will find over the winter. I think McLaren will be better but I doubt they'll be anything other than point scorers next year with the odd podium if they are lucky.

I agree with you. McLaren is a laughing stock on the grid, and has been for the last three years.

First of all McLaren-Honda should prove themselves as a team, who can be taken seriously. Which means that with their finances they should be up there with Ferrari, Williams or at least Red Bull. Instead of battling with Force India and Sauber.

Saying that McLaren "will be better" is not saying much TBH, because teams like BMW Sauber, Jaguar, BAR/Honda and Toyota were also performing better than current McLaren. So it would be even weirder, if McLaren didn't improve, like them being at the back isn't strange enough already!

McLaren's disappearance from the front-running teams does remind a bit of Williams ever since 2005. However, Williams at least had the excuse of lacking in both works engines and finances. McLaren didn't have works engines last year, but they have consistently considered themselves as a big team with big finances. Or is it just an illusion?

McLaren does leave an impression they are a great team with great depth. But is it just a facade with emptiness inside? If so, their PR is doing a great job in leaving a good image despite being a nobody! Because we have seen no real depth for 3 long years already.

jens

14th May 2015, 16:07

Is it five years now, since they last won a race? And now, a Point in sight?

Last McLaren race win is interestingly the dramatic championship-deciding last race of 2012, won by Jenson Button. Remember, in that race Hülkenberg in Force India was also at the front. Now both teams are at the back!

But yeah, McLaren is having a long lean period. They won no races in 1994-96. Ferrari won no races in 1991-93.

However, looks like McLaren's lean period is going to be longer than 3 years this time. Because McLaren in 1996 and Ferrari in 1993 at least were already on an upward curve and getting podiums, leaving an impression they might get a race win soon enough!

jens

14th May 2015, 16:10

Honda in 2008 was a disaster. I wonder how their car did in 2009..........

The story of Brawn GP is perhaps the most unique story that there can be. Very unique and doesn't happen every year! Combined with radical rule changes in many ways.

As far as I know, there are no significant rule changes next year.

jens

14th May 2015, 16:13

Then again your definition of a power and N Jones', as well as mine may be different, because I'm pretty sure you can't challenge for WCC championships, and win a WDC championship without being a powerful team. jmho

You are right that you must be "powerful" to succeed. But there is one issue. McLaren WAS a powerful team, not IS.

That's the difference.:)

Once upon a time BRM, Cooper, Brabham, Renault were all powerful teams in F1, and are not now. Same with Lotus. Williams, though they have somewhat regained their position.

I prefer to look at the present situation rather than the past. Mercedes is the powerhouse of F1 now. It doesn't matter McLaren was 10 years ago, that's a decade ago. It also doesn't matter Renault was winning championships in 2005-06, now is a different ballgame.

Tazio

14th May 2015, 16:36

My comments was in response to:

McLaren haven't been a "power" since the late '90's.
I thought I was pretty clear about that :rolleyes:

jens

14th May 2015, 16:45

Well, then McLaren was certainly at least somewhat a power also in 2007-2012.:)

Even though they were struggling to convert it into championships (got one WDC in 2008), but those are now "good old days" and a distant past.

Tazio

14th May 2015, 16:56

Which was all I was referring to with that comment. :dozey:

jens

14th May 2015, 17:10

Tazio

14th May 2015, 17:18

Well, then McLaren was certainly at least somewhat a power also in 2007-2012.:)

If you don't consider the team they had in 2007 powerful (regardless of the sanctions), than you and I also have a different definition of "powerful". :)

jens

14th May 2015, 17:28

If you don't consider the team they had in 2007 powerful (regardless of the sanctions), than you and I also have a different definition of "powerful". :)

Well, McLaren was very powerful in 2007. They held 1st and 2nd in the drivers championship for most of the season.

Ironically... Retrospectively it is worth considering that this huge 100M scandal started the decline of both McLaren and Alonso's career. For neither it has never been the same since... and now they are back together at the back of the field. Perhaps to "undo" the damage done back then.:)

Tazio

14th May 2015, 17:42

Jens your recent comments are well reasoned, articulately presented. My comment that you quoted was in support of another member who stated that McLaren Honda would be powerful next year. It is possible to be powerful for one season, Brawn F1 is an example. In this age of F1 the likelihood of being a power for only one season are admittedly very remote, unless of course another massive change in the formula occurs.

Retrospectively it is worth considering that this huge 100M scandal started the decline of both McLaren and Alonso's career. It is my opinion that Fred's career went south by leaving the team that he won 2 WDCs with. Regardless of how badly he thought Renault would be, it is my opinion that he "bad vibed" himself by leaving after winning the championship, and should have waited until they were beaten the next season, he would have had his Karma intact! ;)

AndyL

14th May 2015, 18:22

About McLaren one more thing must be mentioned.

It is much easier to fall back, than to climb back. Falling back can be easy (fastest car in 2012, midfield in 2013), but building up to become a "powerful force" (like we argue here) takes lots of time. It is like in life - it is easy to make a mistake and destroy all your chances/hard work. But damn hard to build yourself up to success.

I know someone mentions Brawn GP, but this is the ONLY example for... how many... 30 years?! After radical rule changes...

Other than that...

If you look at all other teams, who have established themselves as top teams, they were gradually improving. And it took time before they won. And before winning they were already good, "promising" to put it this way.

In 2013 Mercedes was 2nd team in WCC and won 3 races (before 2014 domination).
In 1997 McLaren won 3 races (before title in 1998)
In 1992-93 Benetton won a race and was a firm 3rd team in the constructors (before winning in 1994).

It takes a long time before McLaren is "promising", let alone a "power".

Red Bull went from 7th in the WCC and never having won a race in 2008 to 2nd in 2009, beating the spectacular Brawn in the 3rd round of the season and then winning 5 more times.

Mercedes went from 5th in 2012 to 2nd in 2013.

Both teams had been fairly static in terms of performance for several years before. In both cases I would suggest they became a "powerful force" - not title winners, but title challengers - quite suddenly.

Now you could argue that they had been sowing the seeds of their ascension in the previous fallow years, but that's only apparent in retrospect. Whether it's really necessary to have those 3 or 4 mediocre years to build up, I don't know. If you're an existing team that has been successful in the past, I don't really see why. I think the main reason is that's how long it takes for the backer to fully appreciate how much money they will need to spend to win. The common factor between Brawn, Red Bull and Mercedes becoming "powers" would be that their backers finally started pumping in championship-winning amounts of cash the year before. Certainly that was the case for Mercedes and Honda. Not sure if the same was true of Red Bull's budget progression, but I'd bet on it.

If Honda are shipping a massive boat-load of cash to McLaren right now, then they will be a powerful force next year and will win multiple races. Whether they actually become champions is another question, you can't guarantee that for any amount. If Honda are not doing that, then McLaren will remain as also-rans.

jens

14th May 2015, 18:37

Red Bull is indeed the "second best example" after Brawn GP, but as mentioned - also heavily aided by rule changes.

Plus Red Bull and Toro Rosso had the same chassis in 2008, and Vettel won a race in STR. So "promise" was there. They weren't a top team, but better than McLaren now.

But 2009 was a unique game changer. Unlikely to be replicated. It hasn't really happened in F1 in other seasons! It was a combination of front-runners (McLaren, Ferrari) also losing ground, because they did not have enough depth in the team. Not only 2009, but also subsequent seasons proved Ferrari and McLaren were not as strong as they were used to being.

Mercedes... Well, Ross Brawn & Co spent years to build up this team. In 2012 Mercedes already qualfiied very well. Rosberg won a race in China and was second at Monaco. They still had heavy tyre wear problems. 2013 was better on all fronts, let alone 2014, but it was not an improvement "out of nowhere". It was a gradual progress, just like Renault in early-to-mid-2000s, and McLaren in mid-to-late-1990s. Or dare I say Ferrari in mid-to-late-1990s. Plus Mercedes was never performing as bad as McLaren now does.

What are you trying to argue, by the way? That McLaren will be a title challenging team in 2016? I am pretty confident it won't happen.:) All evidence points against it, except the 2009 season with radical rule changes and unique competitive situation in F1. Plus McLaren does not show any strengths that you should back them. It may just as well be Lotus, who wins races and gets podiums soon. After all, by these arguments Lotus is also a "proven top team", who was at the front in 2012-13! But what does this past matter now...

jens

14th May 2015, 18:47

Now you could argue that they had been sowing the seeds of their ascension in the previous fallow years, but that's only apparent in retrospect. Whether it's really necessary to have those 3 or 4 mediocre years to build up, I don't know. If you're an existing team that has been successful in the past, I don't really see why.

Yes, it is apparent in retrospect. But looking at this, there is certain logic. Mercedes started to build up their team since 2010. Ferrari with Team Schumacher since 1996. Red Bull from 2005. Benetton/Renault from 2001.

McLaren-Honda has started just now. Why should they jump to the front out of nowhere? They just STARTED restructuring the team. And that they won in the past does not matter. Lotus won in the past, Williams won, Brabham won.

McLaren may have Ron Dennis, but Renault had Briatore, Mercedes had Brawn, etc. All experienced people. But building a house takes time regardless of who you have at the helm.

Does an existing team, who has been successful in the past, need to re-build? YES! Ferrari didn't win a thing in 1991-93, McLaren didn't win in 94-96. There are new people, new designers, new personnel, new sponsors, new background. Even if team name is the same. Depth in the team counts, and depth varies all the time. Name is just PR. Otherwise McLaren and Ferrari would win all championships, but no - 2010s has been the era of Red Bull and Mercedes.

AndyL

14th May 2015, 19:55

What are you trying to argue, by the way? That McLaren will be a title challenging team in 2016? I am pretty confident it won't happen.:) All evidence points against it, except the 2009 season with radical rule changes and unique competitive situation in F1. Plus McLaren does not show any strengths that you should back them. It may just as well be Lotus, who wins races and gets podiums soon. After all, by these arguments Lotus is also a "proven top team", who was at the front in 2012-13! But what does this past matter now...

I suppose the Cliff Notes version of my argument is that becoming a power in F1 is more about money than time. It's not the 3 or 4 years of working with insufficient budgets that made those teams successes, it was the fact that eventually their backers realised they would need to spend a lot more money to win, and did so.

If right now Honda are spending money at the rate they did during 2008, then yes I think McLaren could be a title challenging team in 2016. And if Lotus had a backer like that then I think they could also be a power in a couple of years. (Note could be, not would be - ref. Toyota.)

N. Jones

15th May 2015, 07:13

The story of Brawn GP is perhaps the most unique story that there can be. Very unique and doesn't happen every year! Combined with radical rule changes in many ways.

As far as I know, there are no significant rule changes next year.
My point is that the 2008 was so bad they started working on the 2009 very very early.
Considering McLaren has way more money than Honda/Brawn had I am confident that they will rebound next year.

jens

15th May 2015, 10:24

I suppose the Cliff Notes version of my argument is that becoming a power in F1 is more about money than time. It's not the 3 or 4 years of working with insufficient budgets that made those teams successes, it was the fact that eventually their backers realised they would need to spend a lot more money to win, and did so.

If right now Honda are spending money at the rate they did during 2008, then yes I think McLaren could be a title challenging team in 2016. And if Lotus had a backer like that then I think they could also be a power in a couple of years. (Note could be, not would be - ref. Toyota.)

Umm... But teams even with big budgets have been struggling. Certainly you don't consider Toyota, BAR-Honda, BMW as teams with "insufficient budgets". Hell, Ferrari gets 100 Million free money from Bernie and if anything, they have not been able to replicate their Schumacher era (2000-2004) prime form for a while already. So money may be there, but team is still lacking in performance, because pieces are not in place.

jens

15th May 2015, 10:25

My point is that the 2008 was so bad they started working on the 2009 very very early.
Considering McLaren has way more money than Honda/Brawn had I am confident that they will rebound next year.

Brawn may have been lacking money, but the 2008 Honda certainly did not and arguably the next car they were building was the "most expensive F1 car of all times" or so it was claimed.

jens

15th May 2015, 11:23

The budget talk is pretty relative. Sometimes we have seen teams with lack of funds creating good cars, i.e Lotus in 2012-13, because they had good depth and designers in the team. Renault's budget in 2005-06 arguably did not quite match some others on the grid either. We have seen teams with big budgets (even Ferrari/McLaren) struggling, because at that period they did not have enough depth in the team. Budget helps, but it is just part of the overall game.

By the way, I am not convinced budget-wise McLaren really is up there. They do not have title sponsorship still, do they? I suspect Ferrari, Red Bull and Mercedes may well be better-funded at this stage, though I think McLaren is probably ahead of Williams.

Mintexmemory

15th May 2015, 11:55

My point is that the 2008 was so bad they started working on the 2009 very very early.
Considering McLaren has way more money than Honda/Brawn had I am confident that they will rebound next year.

If you had heard that engine live (as I did last weekend) you'd know it isn't McLaren's development fund that's required. My belief is that the engine is a dog -it sounds rough and flat and both drivers were suffering problems feeding in the power at standing starts. Running in the race they were only really better than Force India and Manor, not really where you'd have expected them to be on chassis design history!

AndyL

15th May 2015, 12:50

Umm... But teams even with big budgets have been struggling. Certainly you don't consider Toyota, BAR-Honda, BMW as teams with "insufficient budgets".

Toyota certainly had a budget sufficient to be a consistent title contender, which is why I mentioned them in the last sentence of my post. BAR and BMW, I don't know about - were they the biggest spenders on the grid or very close to it? That's what I mean by sufficient to be a "power," i.e. a team that can regularly be a genuine title challenger, not just win a race or two now and then. Money doesn't guarantee success. But lack of it guarantees failure. I'm arguing that is why, for example, Mercedes were not a power in 2010-12. Not because they needed time to patiently build. If Mercedes had put big funding in from the start, they would have been contenders in 2011 in my view.

I think you are right that McLaren does not have that level of funding. That's why I said "If right now Honda are spending money at the rate they did during 2008..." I doubt they are, for the reason that I mentioned earlier - it takes a backer several years to come to terms with the size of the commitment they actually need to make. They always imagine that somehow a midfield budget coupled with their awesome management skill will do the job. Honda learned this lesson once already, but that was 7 years ago now and corporate memories are short.

Tazio

15th May 2015, 16:59

In the real world it's actually quite obvious that funding is not the issue for McLaren-Honda this season . The PU and many of it's ancillary devises are simply too compact. Expect to see major modifications with the use of all 9 development tokens by Austria, along with modifications by Prodromou on the aero side to accommodate them, as they are still coming to grips with the overall disadvantage of his original vision of the zero packaging concept.

Expect material changes in the:
Turbocharger
Valve train
Combustion chamber
MGU-H
MGU-K

Tazio

18th May 2015, 16:38

I found this translated interview posted on another forum, and it doesn't sound too freakin' great for McLaren. or my USDs :uhoh:

Ryo Mukumoto

Hi Ryo, nice to meet you here. Could you tell us the latest development of Honda?
RM: Hi. Currently we are no near top. We are developing still, but it's no easy. We have good (progress), about half (50%) and we continue to fight. We have good onwards from the engine, but right now we are still too far.

Q: Alright, what's the problem with the engine these few races?
RM: We cannot run full like others. Our engineers good work in Japan and we have manage to reach getting 70% full power in supeingo (Spain), and we will try to extract more from power engine. The way our engine designed mean's it's all new and we cannot examples from the rest, we have to experiment ourselves. The position of various key components are unique and some are not ideal, but some good. We did alot of research before coming up with this design,I admit some have not worked but we change them soon use tokens and they will good.

Q: Could you see Mclaren-Honda winning a race this season?
RM: No, difficult next season too. You know new team hard to win race, compare to the rest who work long together. We will try to win a race next year, but no guarantees in motor. Our target is to be near 3rd team (Williams) at the end of this season. It would be a good (achievement) if we do it.

Q: We have heard a lot of things about the Mclaren chassis and the size zero rear end. Care to share more about it?
RM: Eh... small size good for aero, and we package our power (engine) to match it. There is more to (extract) it, but currently if you notice we have not make big steps in aero. There is a big change coming up (b-spec), on target for England (Silverstone). It will be launched with our new engine.

:rolleyes: :angel: